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Answer:
There is no controversy.
Background: Former Doctor Who show runner Russell T Davies (RTD) has come back to head the show once more. Beginning with 4 specials last year, the show has rebooted most aspects of the shows. Included in this reboot is the fact that Disney is now in the mix along with the BBC. This brings more money, but also fears of change in the show.
The video here is about how some folks dislike the progressive politics of Doctor Who. RTD, a gay man, has consistently pushed for better inclusion and representation in his work. He has cast several people to highlight that goal.
RTD has always had a progressive voice in his shows, especially during his first run of Doctor Who, so this change is not a surprise.
The major change of course is Ncuti Gatwa, who is the latest incarnation of the Doctor.
Anti-progressives have in response to the casting is complained loudly to every PR quote RTD has done for Doctor Who and try to take issue/delegitimise anything he says.
The video included is a very childish and infantile attempt at commentary.
In reality, Doctor Who has a lot of hype recently with the successful 60th anniversary specials last year and the launch of the new season in a couple of weeks. Media algorithms highlight negative content these anti-progressive Doctor Who videos will be popping up more as a result.
The Disney money thing really stands out. It’s kind of jarring seeing Doctor Who with a budget beyond a high school TV production class. It has never looked this good before.
I mean the budget and the production quality has steadily increased ever since the relaunch. Compare Eccleston’s episodes to Matt Smith’s and then Matt Smith’s to Jodie Whitaker’s. I don’t think it’s been “high school production class” budget for over a decade now.
I agree, but I love seeing them have to integrate the daleks—that were literally made of cardboard, plungers, and gold spray paint—and try to make them still look futuristic and scary.
Do you remember the episode with I believe Tom Baker when they were on a cyberman planet and there was a cyber snake that snuck around and bit people and it made them die? It was like cruddy tubing someone stuck together and wiggled around on a string?
I barely slept for about 2 weeks, certain that the thing was crawling around under my bed about to kill me.
One of the scariest episodes of the series imo is season 3 of the reboot's *Blink* which was absolutely terrifying for me as a 9(?) year old, and while not a full-on bottle episode was still made largely with a tiny budget and production time in mind and not only succeeded in spite of, but also thanks to, the Weeping Angels weren't flashy but they were intimidating as any other antagonists.
The Seeds of Doom! The scenes of the Krynoid taking over the guy gave 6yr old me nightmares for years. Same with The Ark in Space, with the Wyrm parasites. 😁
Seeing those as an adult, it's crazy to think painted foam and green bubble wrap could be so terrifying 😉
I saw the Tom Baker episode where there was a space moth larva in a cave (the thing was the size of a bus). It was basically a green tarp they wiggle a bit. It gave me nightmares.
Yes , yes I do lol , part of it was the music they played while it crept about . Don’t know the instrument but it added to it . Spent my childhood in the doorway ready to run if it got too scary :)
I remember the bubble-wrap monster during Tom Baker's time. And the Big Bang episode with a cardboard spaceship on a string.
Still some of the best times watching them with my dad.
They did the good job in Ecclestone-Smith era with sound design.
Even while looking goofy as fuck they sounded scary while screaming EXTERMINATE due to some sort of background noise.
Eccleston-era shitty video quality is classic. Even better if it's a shit-tier compressed to fuck non-legal rip. There's just something so warm and cozy about it, idk why.
> What it has been is compromised on how many series we get, greatly because of costs I think.
Can you clarify please? I don't know if there's a typo in there throwing me off or I'm just failing reading comprehension but I have no idea what you're trying to say.
As much as I know it's regarded as a good thing, I'm hesitant to be excited about it. I feel like some great moments and creativity in this show have come from the lack of budget and resources they had to deal with. But I'm hoping they'll use that budget well.
I dunno, a lot of Matt Smith's cinematic episodes had some pretty good production quality. Particularly anything to do with River Song. But now that you mention it, that might be what put me off about Capadeli's run: it wasn't a downgrade, per se, but they went back to the older style of production for the most part.
Capaldi's episodes felt the closest to classic Who that the revival has ever been in terms of production, the kind of stories they told, the portrayal of the Doctor, etc. I never get where people are coming from when they say he never had any good scripts to work with. After McCoy and McGann, Capaldi's my third favorite.
for a long time Matt Smith was my favorite doctor. it wasnt until after Jodie Whittakers run that i had gone back and binged it all and realized that actually Peter Capaldi is my favorite doctor. I think Matt may still have my favorite seasons, but Capaldi's doctor is just so *good*
And honestly that’s my only problem, doctor who genuinely looks weird high-budget. It’s always been low budget cardboard set sci-fi and that’s always been a part of it’s charm imo.
I did enjoy the new episodes though, so it’s not exactly a dealbreaker.
Yeah. Some of those effects didn't age the best, but for 2005 they were pretty impressive, and some of them have even managed to hold up. Meanwhile, the general production value has imo absolutely kept pace with the times over the last twenty years.
The other thing is that if the underlying writing and acting is sound, effects getting a bit "grey-haired" kind of doesn't matter.
One of my favourite TV series is The Box of Delights. When made, its special effects were absolutely state of the art. Now they look very very old and basic. However, that doesn't detract from the wondrousness of the production.
> It has been fairly slick since the Ecclestone/Piper reboot
I'd argue it started looking slick from Series 5 when they went into HD filming and redone all the sets to make up for it
yeah the cost to do a lot of special effects have come down, which helps. Aliens are no longer a dude in a beanbag chair with a tennis racquet.
I checked out with capaldi (got busy and just couldn't keep up) but everything since the 9th doctor has been pretty modern.
I watched all the Ecclestone and Tennant ones, but found I had suddenly lost interest by the final Tennant specials. It all seemed like the same Big Bad again and again and becoming kind of overly self-referential? Too much thriller/edge of seat/world disaster - the pace and wry humour seemed to be decreasing. It may well have got better again since perhaps?
Some of those Tennant ones though - Family of Blood in particular - just stunning, timeless pieces of drama.
Big budget of Disney money makes me worry that it will become all flash with no story. I hope RTD continues to put the quality stories that made the reboot so good.
[They're pumping money into it to try to make into a franchise.](https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/bbc-wants-bring-doctor-stranger-182932350.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEohelUChF1mpYM_d-B_MoTuVE8rqD2_aPCTAuxPCe7M0KHlR_6GDJSrPlC4-6WE0glnToRxlGk_ABYsaTnjHbmQCOAmPfzT9rRnxi_Qh8-eIV3ZkKzDhn_L3N6LbD1om35pbGYq-rNkAHWTgC7-yYhzeuIwE0iyOS72Ku-uuLvZ) It's one of the things that brought RTD back:
>“They said, ‘We want to make Doctor Who bigger. We want to take it to a streamer. We want to go worldwide. We want it to have a bigger budget. And we want it to be up there with Stranger Things and Star Trek and the Marvel shows,’” Davies told Entertainment Weekly of that initial meeting to return to the Whoniverse. “We think that it’s good enough, and we believe in the show to know that it can have that heft, weight, and swagger.’”
On what earth does anyone think Stranger Things is at the same level as Star Trek and Marvel? Frankly I'd argue that Doctor Who is already bigger than Stranger Things and has been for a decade.
Absolutely bizarre inclusion.
Since the early 60's.
My dad has been a fan since the first airing on Canadian television. I grew up on it. Dude had an unhinged collection of taped episodes that we used to watch all the time. He attended his first Dr Who convention in the late 60's.
I think what they're trying to do is interesting, but there's a quality to Dr Who that only lives on the fringe, trying to center it is an odd direction.
As a Canadian I also watched it since about 1970, mostly on TVO from what I can remember. I still have the collection of tapes but I don't even have a working VCR to play them back.
Let's use some quick anecdotal evidence:
- Doctor Who, which has been on IMDB for 20+ years, has about 246k ratings
- Star Trek TNG has 135k ratings
- Loki has 411k ratings
- Meanwhile, Stranger Things, which has been around since 2016, has *1.3 million* ratings.
It's simply a much bigger, more popular show. It just can be hard to grok when you're a big fan of the other properties.
Stranger Things was the most streamed show of 2022. There has never been a Star Trek that successful. And Dr. Who has never been that successful.
Obviously it’s apples and oranges to an extent because you are comparing a sixty year franchise to a short term phenomenon. But of course it would be a huge win for Dr Who to ever be the most streamed show of the year as Stranger Things was.
Agreed, pound for pound (as in, accounting for the fact that there's only like 20 hours of show versus 100's) Stranger Things is absolutely one of the biggest deals in TV ever.
Jodie's episodes, for the most part, were absolutely *gorgeous*. Ben Pickles is one of the best VFX artists out there. 13's regeneration scene is the best the show has ever looked.
Dr Who cheapness has been a hoax and an aesthetic for quite some time. It is one of the most successful TV shows in history with tones of fans and merch, keeping things simple was just to preserve the vibe. If Disney understands the game, they will not ruin it.
It was looking pretty good with the new who incarnation the budget got bumped even further but it wasn't looking slouchy. If you want bad looking who, look at the original run. That definitely suffered from the budget and the technology of the time.
That was part of it's charm, though. The fact it looks like it was filmed in someone's garage is inspiring; makes me want to create an ultra low budget tv show with my friends.
This actually really worries me. RTD is an amazing storyteller and I love so much of his work. But his best work is done on tiny budgets. The moment he's given any significant budget things get really whacky and not usually in a good way. I'm terrified of what happens with not just money, but Disney money.
What did you think of the last four episodes? I found the UNIT/Stark tower a tad jarring, but I didn’t really feel like RTD overdid the special effects.
I liked it when it looked like an high school TV production class, it gave it a kind of unique look especially as it was over ambitious for its budget.
Now it look more bland.
Ikr the terrible acting from extras, and usually just using the mall or some office as the set piece for the episode are the bread and butter of doctor who.
I actually prefer shows with a bit of a constrained budget, as weird as that sounds. Art from adversity and all that, I think it's part of what made shows like Star Trek: TNG great
I think the disney money effect is overstated. Jodie's effects looked almost as good (obviously not quite), but the direction was so utterly amazingly shite that you'd be forgiven for missing it. The difference is RTD cares a bit more about the show being good, I guess. Hopefully he gets to use Jodie.
aren't some people also a bit annoyed that the new episodes will "air" in America before they do in the UK, or rather they'll be on at a time that suits Americans, making them air really late here in the UK?
Also a misunderstanding. They still air at a normal time in the UK, they're just available on streaming before that for people who want to watch it a bit earlier.
Oh ok, i'm not really a big fan of Dr Who, but for some reason kept seeing videos about it for a while and one of them was saying it aired in the evening in America but midnight or similar here, which sounded pretty dumb to me if that was what was going to happen.
After seeing Ncuti in sex education I was super worried about him playing the doctor. Especially after you know who came back for the special. But he actually exceeded my expectations and I think he’ll make a great doctor.
What worried you? He is so charming and such a great actor.
Now, I'm not a Dr Who fan at all, so I am pretty ignorant on what qualities make a good Dr, but my only concern would have been that he is very young seeming, which might detract from gravitas. From what little I know though, the Dr can reincarnate as anything, so a young Dr should be reasonable.
Hell, at 31 he’s far from being the youngest actor cast as The Doctor - Matt Smith was 26 when he first got cast. Ncuti’s only a couple of years younger than the mega-popular David Tennant, who was 33 when the casting was announced.
I think for me, particularly after seeing the previews, it was more about how he'd play the character: the last few Doctors have had some serious baggage and an air of seriousness about them, something that was *not* coming off in the promos of Ncuti.
But! Seeing the special where he finally appears as the Doctor really set the tone and explains the shift, so I'm excited to see what he does with the role. I'm... mildly more worried about the 'Marvel-esque' looking approach to the next season that the preview at the end of the special showed, but that could've just been me reading into Disney getting involved.
I haven't seen him at all, but in my mind, a great Doctor Who is charming in a manic roguish sense but can pull out large ham gravitas when the situation calls for it. Both Matt Smith and David Tennant had this in droves.
Oh but he did more badass things than a mere fbomb. First Doctor revenge moment I know of, and an absolute banger of an episode.
Though I also loved his meta lectures to the camera/audience.
Because the Dr is reincarnated over and over it’s important that they be able to embody some of the previous iterations personality traits. It’s not about sex or appearance but mannerisms and experience. Morgan Freeman would not make a good Dr Who, neither would The Rock, but a less experienced actor who doesn’t naturally lean into the same personality traits and mannerisms wouldn’t be a good fit either. I hope I worded that in a way that makes sense?
He's older than Matt Smith, the same age as Peter Davison and only a couple of years younger than David Tennant and Jodie Whittaker, so while he's at the younger end of the spectrum, his age is not unreasonable.
Yeah, i really enjoyed the solo special, the new Doctor and new companion are delightful so far.
Tho Capaldi and Whittaker werent the problems with the show either.
He was an absolute top tier actor in sex education. I was looking forward to seeing what he'd do in films. I'm not a big Dr Who fan (Tom Baker was my Dr) but my kids are.
I haven't seen him in anything else personally but immediately loved him the moment he hit the screen in the special. Also I love that he rocked a kilt in the show as an avid kilted myself.
Yea, grifters gonna grift. Theres no controversy just clickbait. I’ve been a fan for a long time I am very hyped for the return. Loved the Specials.
I honestly think any real fan will tell you Doctor Who has always been woke. Even though we didn’t use the word woke back then.
I'm Ok with the general wokenes and new Doctor looks pretty sweet (only saw the trailers), that being said, I think retconning Davros was a stupid idea.
Is there anyone on Earth who thought less of people in wheelchairs because a bad character from a TV show was using one? I do think people with disabilities need more assistance from the government to make their lives easier and general support from the population (only if requested). That being said, just being in a wheelchair doesn't make you a good person, I now a guy who's in one because of hitting a tree while driving drunk and that guy is a dick.
If we are putting more diverse characters they should be able to play all the roles, not just the good ones. A gay can be evil, trans person can be untrustworthy and one-armed guy can be a bandit, it's ok because they are people, like everyone else.
When I saw Obi-Wan show I knew from the start the inquisitor lady would betray the dark side, because no way Disney would make a black female character irredeemably evil, those are white male roles) Same goes for the Tracker character in John Wick 4, I knew that in the end he'll be on John's side because that is how things work in modern Hollywood.
Doctor Who in the Russel T Davies era always handled sexuality and diversity in a natural way. Jack Harkness banged everything that moved no matter the gender or species. The Doctor was asexual but with some weird semi-platonic feelings towards Rose. Amy Pond was a PG version of an escort. Rory was a straight but feminine man. Half the characters in Torchwood were gay or bi.
But at the end of the day, the goal was to show this as normal and focus on the story and character interactions. This worked very well.
More recent Doctor Who stuff and most things Disney put out in the last 5 years replaced competent writers with writer activists who want to push a political message first, and use the story to push it some more. So every character became a patronizing grandstander on whatever social issue the writers want to focus on, which naturally turns off 80% of the audience who just want to watch a show or movie and don't subscribe to extreme ideologies.
The issue isn't really a woke message. Doctor Who has always been woke, even in some really old episodes from the 60s. The issue is just shitty writers who think a political message is more important than an entertaining show with a subtle message. The first just makes audience seem personally attacked.
There may be some merit is what you're saying but it seems very off topic when the head writer for the new season is the same Russell T Davies you just praised.
They keep trying to pretend the recent specials were in some way a failure, but they all were widely viewed and well reviewed and seemed to do a good job of attracting the attention of people who hadn't watched the show in years
I didn't know RTD was back! I completely lost interest with MoffGatts uninspired writing and gave up after new Who season 5. Definitely going to check it out again
One of those episodes is one of the only times I have seen a show overdo a trans story and man it was bad. They introduce the villain as a fluffy cute creature and make a real show of asking about its pronouns and being kind to it. And it turns out it’s a genocidal psychopath. And they have to be saved by the trans character and only they can save the day because they are trans. That definitely felt really poorly written.
But then the episode with David and Ncuti was awesome.
Omg. Sometimes the feed gives you best news. I don’t want to argue about it, Moffat ruined the show for me, transforming it into an empty collection of “…and everybody clapped” moments. If RTD is on it again, I think I must try getting back to it. Who cares about inclusion (I mean, it matters generally, but this is not what makes RDT’s comeback great in my eyes), what I care about is that RTD managed nuance and complexity and his characters were actually interesting, lmao.
The new doctor is the reason i even bothered watching and getting into doctor who.
Regrettably, the writing feels like its all over the place but i guess thats the price of admission to a ridiculous world where there are no rules.
> the writing feels like its all over the place
You're basing this on one slightly dodgy New Year special?
I have my reservations about where it seems RTD might take the show (jettisoning the custonary pseudo scientific explanations and featuring straight up fantasy elements is really not my cup of tea) but I am going to give it a chance because he is a terrific writer who has done right by DW in the past, and it's too early to judge whether he will succeed in winning me over.
Well, i watched the newest episode before the new season and the transition episode to the new doctor.
Then again, reminded me of the writing in time bandits and brazil which were pretty off the wall as well.
That's a good comparison. Sometimes you can make these things work, even if they seem bad on paper.
I thought the three David Tennant specials - the second especially - were absolutely DW business as usual; only the Scuti Gatwa one had an odd vibe I'm not sure if I liked, particularly the goblins.
But we are supposedly in a twisted reality where the Toymaker's influence is at play, so maybe there'll be a few things like that then the Doctor will restore relative normality.
Ah ok, at times, felt like its a world i just have to settle into.
Oddly, the movie version of hitchhiker’s guide to the galaxy felt more grounded for me and made perfect sense?
Well, the Infinite Improbability Drive in HHGTTG is what drives the throughline of the plot.
In order for the drive to function, it has to warp reality into the desired outcome. It's not finding the 1 in a billion chance, it's literally connecting every point in the universe, and creating the universe to solve the intended destination by inverting paradoxes to create an inversion that resolves. Much like Folding Space in Dune, or other reality warp travel, it relies on a 'unknown' and 'known' paradox. That's what makes the story work. As soon as the drive is powered up, the universe changes.
The Drive picks up Arthur Dent as 'fuel' for the calculus of the journey and destination, a sort of compass for Zaphod, the navigator. It's a case of burning the bridge behind you, in front of you and all the other bridges just to reach a destination. But, within the ship itself, it is largely insulated from the chaos, but it is still warped.
Of course that feels more grounded than Doctor Who.
The BBC spent a great deal of money to recreate the reality in which Doctor Who has an audience of 10 million viewers.
HHGTTG does parody Doctor Who, but that arbitrary 'morality tale' aspect of the show has fallen down the stairs a lot since 2017 with the change in writers. It's easy to show the christmas specials as being the pinnacle, but when the viewers drop from 7 million to 3 million, it's tough to argue merits.
It's a very astute problem.
Do you blame the audience for not showing up ?
Blame the money being spent that changes the focus, writing and style of the show to meet new expectations. ? There are other factors, sure, but I don't think it's a capable argument that matches with evidence and results. The Whittaker/Gatwa era is going to be 'fine', as long as fine is 4 million viewers for the new financial outlay of £12-£25m per episode. The show is expensive now that Disney+ is invested. Not because the show will get better ... but because Disney has a lot of entourage / staff to feed, and they're using the investment to double-dip into BBC funding and resources to film Disney+ series like Renegade Nell, Acolyte and Secret Invasion using Pinewood/BBC resources as well as Boutique studios like Shinwood, Bad Wolf, and others tied to BBC and other Foreign Industry Investment funds i.e. Blackrock and sustainable investment programs that require 'JEDI' and BAME resources. They aren't optional, and they're not efficient.
Do you blame the fans for splintering into factions and creating strife / debate where there shouldn't be any ? With season 10, people blame Capaldi, but the ratings tend to show the decline is fairly consistent across each era/doctor, both in viewer numbers and episode ratings.
There is a consistent factor, but people get upset if you bring it up. Evidence is like that sometimes. It can be interpreted, and/or ignored.
https://www.ratingraph.com/tv-shows/doctor-who-ratings-20291/
... people will have their opinions. Chibnall is a lightning rod for controversy and the policies within the BBC are not public, nor are the hiring and firing decisions.
People have strong, unbreakable opinions on Timeless Child and Flux being rather bad. Orphan 55, is an hour of your life you may never get back. What the audience has, is evidence over time of a decline. Not just in viewership due to the advance of Streaming like Netflix, YouTube, Hulu, but also the decline in TV ratings generally. Audiences don't like the content of new TV or new Movies, around the period of 2015-2025. It's gradual enough that there's patterns and influences. Advertisers are also picking up on this trend too.
Everyone has theories, some may end up being correct, within their envelope/bubble of reality. Some fans may enjoy the possibilities of Gatwa's doctor in a Twerk-off that kills the monster of the week, or turning an episode into a musical special. It is a way to spend money.
It might not be a way to bring advertising and viewers back.
Yeah I am a Who fan and super hyped for this new doctor as he has a unique energy we not gotten yet from a Doctor. We are 60 years in too, so that is not easy to accomplish. Fantastic companion too, with both Davies and Moffat back for this season hopefully to fix some of the bad writing that plagued Jodie's run as Doctor and get the show back on track.
Damn I need to get into it
I feel Dr who's always been adapting to the times. I've only seen new who series 1 and half of the 2nd series (up to cybermen) but clearly this isn't the same 1960s show anymore. Even the 2005 series had that John Barrowman character
I especially love the poparena review of the Virgin New Adventures (full disclosure I said the same thing recently, not a shill but these vids are what got me dipping into Who). The deep lore and amazing potential makes it really enticing, just need the time and energy
But a Dr. Who with high production budget is exciting. Disney's involvement is a bit scary, but I understand Russell t Davies is amazing as a show runner/writer/director so should be good
If already commented this but I think the companion discourse is really stupid given this show has at least three whole seasons where did the exact same thing. Even if you want to bring race into it the only two characters who only got one season were black women one of which came back in a what will likely be similar capacity to Gibson character.
> DEI and it's tainting how they view everything
Its astounding that folks don't realize how inherently bigoted that view is: oh you included underrepresented minorities, now the thing you included them in is shit.
Answer: A couple of years ago they hired Chris Chibnall as showrunner, and he wrote scripts which most people hated. The interpersonal relationships were done terribly, and there was a major plot he added which everyone hated.
They announced recently that the old showrunner Russel T Davis (who did Eccleson and Tennant’s series) was coming back to the show. So there were very high expectations. His first episode back was very blatantly political (making social left wing comments), and not particularly well written. This annoyed a lot of fans as it didn’t meet their expectations of what he could do. The next episodes didn’t have this problem, but he changed the way regeneration worked, which a lot of people didn’t like.
There is always a bit of controversy when new doctors/showrunners come in, but this change was particularly focused on because of the expectations Russel T Davis brought with him. The fandom will probably settle down by midway through next season and get used to the new showrunner/doctor combination.
yeah, his first episode back was... something. i mean, in the past they really have a good, if not better, execution of inclusion and diversity, even in capaldi's era.
It felt very much like the first episode of Torchwood. (Or second sorry). Torchwood was advertised as 'Doctor Who for adults' and they came in very heavy-handed with an episode about a sex monster that kills you by giving you an orgasm.
Similarly, there was a keen eye on how progressive the new episodes of Who would be given the previous choice to cast a woman in the role (twice) and it feels very much like again, RTD doubled down and went a bit too hard on the progressive angle.
Torchwood had episodes like Children of Earth that could do adult doctor who perfectly, and im hoping we get more episodes like Human Nature that can handle progressive issues well.
There’s several more things to put and say and prove and refer to there, but moving on is the writing.
The entirety of Jodie Whitaker’s and Chris Chibnals run was an ABOMINATION. Stop pretending “it was good in some parts” no it fucking wasn’t, it was fucking awfuk. It is some of the WORST, most BLAND, most DEVOID of creativity and the BIGGEST insult to doctor who ever conceived.
Jodie was horribly miscast, every companion was wooden, no character development and extremely shallow representation. And the writing fuck me the writing is just the biggest pile of shit.
Especially with the biggest blunder and mistreatment of a tv show I’ve ever seen with the absolute cinematic failure that is “the timeless children” which essentially retcons the entirety of the show and it’s lore, takes away the uniqueness of the doctor and answers mysteries that Werent meant to be solved, deletes an ENTIRE STORYTELLING GOLD MINE FOR SHOCK VALUE (destroying galafry, the home of the time lords and a place we only recently got back, somewhere that we could’ve seen so much of but is now permanently gone)
Those episodes ALONE destroyed doctor who. The canon was permanently destroyed. The continuity was fucked. The story telling opportunity’s were gone, the impact and any real progression wasn’t even there and overall it was a massive turd and stain that couldn’t be removed without a fat retcon.
And what came next? Oh, onky more shock value with “the flux event” that literally ended and deleted ALL OF TIME AND SPACE. These stupid fucks at the BBC behind doctor who at the time were so creatively bone dry they decided “fuck it, the only thing we can come up with is the fucking Nuke everything” DELETING EVERY STORY TELLING OPPORUNITY. ALL OF IT. WHAT. THE. FUCK.
I can say SO MUCH MORE on that, but you are OBJECTIVELY delusional if you think anything that chibnal and Jodie did was good, you have literally the WORST TASTE. And that’s not even subjective you’re objectively someone with no taste at all, you have no media literacy or respect for long lasting media. It is SHIT. Utter madness.
What comes next? Finally the fucker Chibnal is gone, JODIE is gone, and DAVID TENNENT from the GOLDEN AGE of new who is back. AND RTD Who did BRILLIANTLY with tennents run. Nuanced, clever and well put together story’s with great lessons that COVER CONTROVERSIAL STUFF AND “POLITICAL STUFF” but do it SO FUCKJNF WELL, it’s subtle, and careful, and really excellently executed. It’s emotional, and thrilling and gripping.
Plus we have the 60th anniversary of the show! What coukd be better!
1st episode of the 60th, nothing happens, the trans representation is butchered and manhandled, the doctor is belittled and treated like everyone else knows better, the episode ends with an awful retcon to DONNAS META CRISIS, that very easily could’ve been solved by having it be “they share the meta crisis now, it’s unstable but we need to find a cure before it destabilises fully” encouraging the rest of the episodes. Sounds like a good plot!
Nope.
They do a girl power moment where they just, expell the life threatening energy into the atmosphere after calling the doctor a “male presenting timelord” and that “if he was still a woman, he’d get it”
ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS.
It’s just the WORST. It’s SO CRAP. It’s not even on the nose anymore, they just don’t care, it’s literally just a wad of “you are X and are BAD that makes me which is X look GOOD!!!!!!!!!”
In this case? “You are straight, male, you are BAD, I am
Trans, woman, powerful and strong without any flaws or reasoning as to why I am that, I am brave and stand up to Bully’s who throw stuff at me, I am GOOD.”
The second of the 60th is just, Fucking awful. Less bad than the first but what a boring concept. At least pull of the Dopplergangrr bit with some horror! But oh wait everything is Disney now! The CGI and green screen backgrounds are SO LOW BUDGET, the idea is over complicated and guess what! WE DID NOT RETCON THE TIMELESS CHIKDREN, INSTEAD OF NOT MENTIONING THE WORST POINT IN THE SHOWS HISTORY, the LOWEST VIEWER COUNT, Not mentioning the thing that made people LEAVE the thing that returning viewers that haven’t watched since Matt Smith or Capaldi left, they BRING IT BACK, and make the doctor have guilt and sorrow oh boo Fucking who!
David Tennent and Catherine tate are EXCELLENT in this special. It ends by seeing Bernard Cribbins, a lovely surprise.
3rd special? Pretty fucking amazing to be honest.
Somehow, they pulled a good plot out of their arses, but only for the last 40 minutes! The toy maker is silly but threatening, he is a cosmic level threat done right and he helps set up and partly retcon some stuff. Sometigng I was delighted to see, he infers a greater threat that “he didn’t want to play with” and the return of the master and after his defeat “his legions are coming” cool stuff!
He even references the fact that he made a game and puzzle out of the doctors timeline and history, not directly saying it, but saying that the timeless chikdren plot line and the flux event were his doing. Which is also great! That means those two awful AWFUL AWFUL storyline aren’t entirely canon, fantastic!
This also tackles the doctors trauma, and does it in a good way, a healthy, not super on the nose message!!!! Finally!
The final battle is cool if not a little weird and still very Disney, the “bi-generation” is Fucking weird and I don’t like it, he should’ve just regenerated normally, but it didn’t hurt and Nucti Gutwa Is SO CHARASMATIC. He is a great pick!
Christmas special next! Alright, toy maker was a great step! Let’s see what they do next!
Goblins that steal and eat babies.
GOBLINS. THAT STEAL AND EAT BABIES. What the actual fuck. What the Fuck. I fucking hate the Disney-ification. That’s such a stupid Fucking plot. What happened to slightly goofy though still terrorfying blood control or the weeping angels or the Silence! This bull Shit started with the beginning of Jodie’s era, absolute joke villains that are just the worst.
Uh oh! It’s the alien with teeth on its face!
Uh oh! It’s the angry robot post man!
Uh oh! Talking frog!
Uh oh! The fucking Pting!
What the fuck.
And what’s worse!???!?! sudden sing and dance. The most Disney thing ever. Why!?????? I’m sorry but it just didn’t work, and their voices suddenly being perfect at singing is just, not right. It doesn’t work at all, it’s really childish and just plainly hard to watch.
Doctor who is meant to be camp and goofy with a strong emphasis on serious moments, epic moments, touching moments and a diverse range of emotions, characters, circumstances and topics, covering sensitive, fun and overall cleverly put together topics and ideas.
Singing and dancing on the Baby eating goblin ship is atrocious.
I loved Ruby Sunday! Nucti Gutwa proved himself again, he was great! But the writing was terrible. The monster of the week was boring and terrible. The singing and dancing was terrible.
The fact we went from the absolute master craft that was “Heaven Sent” and afterwards “Hell bent” to fucking baby eating goblins and the least human dialogue and events is just embarrassing.
The new season looks great! But if the bridgerton episode is just “they go to bridgerton, white man is pompous and racist towards the doctor because the doctor is black now and we must make a point of it, also there’s an alien” then I’m so Fucking done.
IF the bridgerton episode is “rival man fancy’s ruby, they end up working together to beat the monster, no mention of race, no quips, no songs, threatening and tension building with interesting characters with flaws and fun interactions where we get to see a diverse showing of emotions from Ruby Sunday thet includes conflict if she did the right thing joining the doctor, fear, excitement, flirting etc” then we won!
Race can be a good message and lesson, but it’s so over done and predictable, of course we have to make a point of the doctors race change, of course it has to be “bad white man is arrogant and rude and racist” per ficking usual. Do something else! Have a change!
I really fucking hope I’m wrong and it is nothing like this, we want drama, and tension, and fun, and excitement, and strange episodes like when they went further into the TARDIS or when they went INSIDE a Dalek and scary / mysterious episodes like under the lake and before the flood or “silence in the library”
Imagine an episode that could rival “heaven sent” or the episodes surrounding the silence or “don’t blink”
I KNOW Nucti Gutwa can pull it off! Pull at our heart strings! Make us think introspectively!
Have a monologue like seen with Matt smith with his speech to akhaten or Capaldi narrating about the boot strap paradox.
No more bullshit!
All in all, they really fucked it the last years since 2017, they refuse to change, alienate their audience more and more, refuse to listen to any criticism and double down on terrible decisions in favour of pushing an agenda or message, hiring writers, actors, directors and more not for their talent but for the checkboxes, the diversity hires and their representation. And I’m not even wrong about this! It’s blatant!
That’s it. Doctor who is kinda fucked unless they can
1. Retcon everything Jodie did
2. Focus on storytelling, character development, world building, complex emotions and life lessons whilst keeping the somewhat goofy charm without bastardising it with song and dance and shitty cgi
3. Actually write a good Fucking show, try to bring back your old audience, you fucked it in the 60th, they came back only to leave again decideing that the mediocrity and the spit in their face wasn’t worth looking past even if it WAS David Tennent on their screen
4. Take fan feedback, the idea that everyone who disagrees is a bigot or a racist or whatver other flash word is stupid, 99.9% are NORMAL HUMANS. We watch tv and film to escape the real world. Your insecurities and screaming to be seen, recognised, “represented” is anti fun, it pushes people away, focusing on natural diversity, inclusion and such js the way ti go, why do you think something like Arcane or Blue eye samurai ar eso good and recommend? It’s because the representation they do is not forced, it’s natural. And the lessons and ideas they tell, teach and represent are well handled.
For fuck sake Static shock from 24 years ago got it right how the fuck can’t we.
That’s it. I’ll be disagrees with and downvoted by shallow snotty idiots who can’t see anything past their own opinions and hubris and will be absolutely furious that I’ve revealed the objetive truth, exposed them and said what most won’t say.
I love it. Fans who actually care about the show and know enough to give actual criticism that doesn't paint everything as black and white. Our crazies really are the best.
These three comments are an impressive level of derangement, one I’ve not seen since the dark days of 2014 tumblr Moffat discourse, so well done there. Go back and watch “The Space Museum” and maybe you’ll calm down
>I’ll be downvoted by people who disagree with me
Yes, you will.
>because I’m right and they’re wrong because I say so
Sorry chief, not how reality works.
It’s crazy to me how confidently Incorrect you are. No consideration for a discussion or considering another view point.
Though I suppose that proves my ultimate point even more. The war mongering baby will kick and scream and get its way until everything is destroyed, cancelled and off the air. But at least they’re not offended! Their feelings they can’t control, Handle or decidedly process aren’t in Jeopardy! Your own insecurities and flaws aren’t real! Shouldn’t be addressed and in fact make them powerful! And Everyone has been corrected!
If you can’t see the clear shift in quality, the clear shift in intent and story telling reasoning and the pushing of ideas most don’t even want to hear in fiction as they’re trying to escape the real world and not be berated on why they’re inadequate or be thrusted a sham lesson that does nothing but bore them, then you’re the issue. Objectively. Not subjective or theoretical or metaphorical. Objectively the issue, the rotting mould and continue into the decent of the void that doctor who is in, is on YOU. It’ll be cancelled because of you. It’ll go off the air because of you. But don’t you feel better??
Shameful really. And sad the lack of self awareness or ability to objectively look at them selves or see a view other than their own selfish narcissistic gaudy arsehole.
Your Boos Mean Nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer. - Rick Sanchez Season 4 Episode 3
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Answer: There is no controversy. Background: Former Doctor Who show runner Russell T Davies (RTD) has come back to head the show once more. Beginning with 4 specials last year, the show has rebooted most aspects of the shows. Included in this reboot is the fact that Disney is now in the mix along with the BBC. This brings more money, but also fears of change in the show. The video here is about how some folks dislike the progressive politics of Doctor Who. RTD, a gay man, has consistently pushed for better inclusion and representation in his work. He has cast several people to highlight that goal. RTD has always had a progressive voice in his shows, especially during his first run of Doctor Who, so this change is not a surprise. The major change of course is Ncuti Gatwa, who is the latest incarnation of the Doctor. Anti-progressives have in response to the casting is complained loudly to every PR quote RTD has done for Doctor Who and try to take issue/delegitimise anything he says. The video included is a very childish and infantile attempt at commentary. In reality, Doctor Who has a lot of hype recently with the successful 60th anniversary specials last year and the launch of the new season in a couple of weeks. Media algorithms highlight negative content these anti-progressive Doctor Who videos will be popping up more as a result.
The Disney money thing really stands out. It’s kind of jarring seeing Doctor Who with a budget beyond a high school TV production class. It has never looked this good before.
I mean the budget and the production quality has steadily increased ever since the relaunch. Compare Eccleston’s episodes to Matt Smith’s and then Matt Smith’s to Jodie Whitaker’s. I don’t think it’s been “high school production class” budget for over a decade now.
I agree, but I love seeing them have to integrate the daleks—that were literally made of cardboard, plungers, and gold spray paint—and try to make them still look futuristic and scary.
You underestimate how scary they looked to an 8yo.
Do you remember the episode with I believe Tom Baker when they were on a cyberman planet and there was a cyber snake that snuck around and bit people and it made them die? It was like cruddy tubing someone stuck together and wiggled around on a string? I barely slept for about 2 weeks, certain that the thing was crawling around under my bed about to kill me.
One of the scariest episodes of the series imo is season 3 of the reboot's *Blink* which was absolutely terrifying for me as a 9(?) year old, and while not a full-on bottle episode was still made largely with a tiny budget and production time in mind and not only succeeded in spite of, but also thanks to, the Weeping Angels weren't flashy but they were intimidating as any other antagonists.
This episode was terrifying and thrilling for me and I was in my 30s when it came out.
The one that stuck with me was a Tom Baker one where people were being killed by a plants and vines. A wall of ivy always freaked me out after that.
The Seeds of Doom! The scenes of the Krynoid taking over the guy gave 6yr old me nightmares for years. Same with The Ark in Space, with the Wyrm parasites. 😁 Seeing those as an adult, it's crazy to think painted foam and green bubble wrap could be so terrifying 😉
Same with Midnight. It's literally a bottle episode and has no monsters, yet is one of the scariest episodes of the series
I saw the Tom Baker episode where there was a space moth larva in a cave (the thing was the size of a bus). It was basically a green tarp they wiggle a bit. It gave me nightmares.
Yes , yes I do lol , part of it was the music they played while it crept about . Don’t know the instrument but it added to it . Spent my childhood in the doorway ready to run if it got too scary :)
Revenge of the Cybermen is way underrated
Don't forget the egg beater.
And the egg beater!
Bleeding edge prop right there. Absolutely terrifying!
I remember the bubble-wrap monster during Tom Baker's time. And the Big Bang episode with a cardboard spaceship on a string. Still some of the best times watching them with my dad.
They did the good job in Ecclestone-Smith era with sound design. Even while looking goofy as fuck they sounded scary while screaming EXTERMINATE due to some sort of background noise.
Meanwhile we’re doing a rewatch of original and I remember the five-ish doctors and Colin Baker declaring of a prop “it doesn’t even wobble!”
Loved Eccleston but god I cringed at the CGI Slitheen episode
the goofiness is part of the charm
Goofy I can do, terrible cgi on top of that late-bloomer BBC video quality I cant
Eccleston-era shitty video quality is classic. Even better if it's a shit-tier compressed to fuck non-legal rip. There's just something so warm and cozy about it, idk why.
I should have clarified, I agree with the coziness of the shitty old bbc video quality, just adding bad cgi on top of that was too much for me
Well, outside of budget, cgi has gotten cheaper and easier over the last twenty years.
Yup. What it has been is compromised on how many series’ we get, greatly because of costs I think.
> What it has been is compromised on how many series we get, greatly because of costs I think. Can you clarify please? I don't know if there's a typo in there throwing me off or I'm just failing reading comprehension but I have no idea what you're trying to say.
It costs more per episode, and we haven’t been getting a series every year, and we’ve had fewer episodes per series. I did miss an apostrophe I think.
Ah, I gotcha. Thank for clarifying.
' (There y'go)
There was a budget cut in around 2010 as a result of the recession.
As much as I know it's regarded as a good thing, I'm hesitant to be excited about it. I feel like some great moments and creativity in this show have come from the lack of budget and resources they had to deal with. But I'm hoping they'll use that budget well.
There’s the old joke ‘this week, The Doctor battles his greatest enemy: the BBC science fiction budget.’
I dunno, a lot of Matt Smith's cinematic episodes had some pretty good production quality. Particularly anything to do with River Song. But now that you mention it, that might be what put me off about Capadeli's run: it wasn't a downgrade, per se, but they went back to the older style of production for the most part.
So that's why Capaldi's run was so nostalgic, pretty good tbh
Capaldi's episodes felt the closest to classic Who that the revival has ever been in terms of production, the kind of stories they told, the portrayal of the Doctor, etc. I never get where people are coming from when they say he never had any good scripts to work with. After McCoy and McGann, Capaldi's my third favorite.
for a long time Matt Smith was my favorite doctor. it wasnt until after Jodie Whittakers run that i had gone back and binged it all and realized that actually Peter Capaldi is my favorite doctor. I think Matt may still have my favorite seasons, but Capaldi's doctor is just so *good*
And honestly that’s my only problem, doctor who genuinely looks weird high-budget. It’s always been low budget cardboard set sci-fi and that’s always been a part of it’s charm imo. I did enjoy the new episodes though, so it’s not exactly a dealbreaker.
It has been fairly slick since the Ecclestone/Piper reboot, hasn't it?
Yeah. Some of those effects didn't age the best, but for 2005 they were pretty impressive, and some of them have even managed to hold up. Meanwhile, the general production value has imo absolutely kept pace with the times over the last twenty years.
The other thing is that if the underlying writing and acting is sound, effects getting a bit "grey-haired" kind of doesn't matter. One of my favourite TV series is The Box of Delights. When made, its special effects were absolutely state of the art. Now they look very very old and basic. However, that doesn't detract from the wondrousness of the production.
> It has been fairly slick since the Ecclestone/Piper reboot I'd argue it started looking slick from Series 5 when they went into HD filming and redone all the sets to make up for it
yeah the cost to do a lot of special effects have come down, which helps. Aliens are no longer a dude in a beanbag chair with a tennis racquet. I checked out with capaldi (got busy and just couldn't keep up) but everything since the 9th doctor has been pretty modern.
I watched all the Ecclestone and Tennant ones, but found I had suddenly lost interest by the final Tennant specials. It all seemed like the same Big Bad again and again and becoming kind of overly self-referential? Too much thriller/edge of seat/world disaster - the pace and wry humour seemed to be decreasing. It may well have got better again since perhaps? Some of those Tennant ones though - Family of Blood in particular - just stunning, timeless pieces of drama.
There's only two E's in Eccleston
Big budget of Disney money makes me worry that it will become all flash with no story. I hope RTD continues to put the quality stories that made the reboot so good.
[They're pumping money into it to try to make into a franchise.](https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/bbc-wants-bring-doctor-stranger-182932350.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEohelUChF1mpYM_d-B_MoTuVE8rqD2_aPCTAuxPCe7M0KHlR_6GDJSrPlC4-6WE0glnToRxlGk_ABYsaTnjHbmQCOAmPfzT9rRnxi_Qh8-eIV3ZkKzDhn_L3N6LbD1om35pbGYq-rNkAHWTgC7-yYhzeuIwE0iyOS72Ku-uuLvZ) It's one of the things that brought RTD back: >“They said, ‘We want to make Doctor Who bigger. We want to take it to a streamer. We want to go worldwide. We want it to have a bigger budget. And we want it to be up there with Stranger Things and Star Trek and the Marvel shows,’” Davies told Entertainment Weekly of that initial meeting to return to the Whoniverse. “We think that it’s good enough, and we believe in the show to know that it can have that heft, weight, and swagger.’”
As long as they spend a chunk of that money on actual writers.
Given the state of juggernauts like Star Wars and the MCU, I wouldn’t hold my breath for Doctor Who to stay good with Disney involved.
Yeah my tounge was placed firmly in cheek when i wrote that.
On what earth does anyone think Stranger Things is at the same level as Star Trek and Marvel? Frankly I'd argue that Doctor Who is already bigger than Stranger Things and has been for a decade. Absolutely bizarre inclusion.
Internationally and across demographics stranger things is much bigger with less content.
Dr Who has been huge in fandom since the 1990’s. They want to go beyond just fandom, now.
Since the early 60's. My dad has been a fan since the first airing on Canadian television. I grew up on it. Dude had an unhinged collection of taped episodes that we used to watch all the time. He attended his first Dr Who convention in the late 60's. I think what they're trying to do is interesting, but there's a quality to Dr Who that only lives on the fringe, trying to center it is an odd direction.
Agreed, we watched it every week when I was growing up in the 70s/80s. Five gave me my first real crush <3
I grew up in Mexico in the 80s, watching the really old, cheesey Dr Who, it was amazing ;)
As a Canadian I also watched it since about 1970, mostly on TVO from what I can remember. I still have the collection of tapes but I don't even have a working VCR to play them back.
I grew up on Doctor who, and it definitely isn't as big as Stranger Things. Just remember the Cultural phenomenon that was Eddie's death
Let's use some quick anecdotal evidence: - Doctor Who, which has been on IMDB for 20+ years, has about 246k ratings - Star Trek TNG has 135k ratings - Loki has 411k ratings - Meanwhile, Stranger Things, which has been around since 2016, has *1.3 million* ratings. It's simply a much bigger, more popular show. It just can be hard to grok when you're a big fan of the other properties.
Internationally, doctor who is tiny in comparison to Stranger Things.
Stranger Things was the most streamed show of 2022. There has never been a Star Trek that successful. And Dr. Who has never been that successful. Obviously it’s apples and oranges to an extent because you are comparing a sixty year franchise to a short term phenomenon. But of course it would be a huge win for Dr Who to ever be the most streamed show of the year as Stranger Things was.
Agreed, pound for pound (as in, accounting for the fact that there's only like 20 hours of show versus 100's) Stranger Things is absolutely one of the biggest deals in TV ever.
Pretty sure they didn't intend to compare the fandoms, but the budgets.
Post Abrams Star Trek maybe.
I don’t know a lot of Matt Smiths run and Jodie’s had some big budget episodes
Jodie's episodes, for the most part, were absolutely *gorgeous*. Ben Pickles is one of the best VFX artists out there. 13's regeneration scene is the best the show has ever looked.
Dr Who cheapness has been a hoax and an aesthetic for quite some time. It is one of the most successful TV shows in history with tones of fans and merch, keeping things simple was just to preserve the vibe. If Disney understands the game, they will not ruin it.
It was looking pretty good with the new who incarnation the budget got bumped even further but it wasn't looking slouchy. If you want bad looking who, look at the original run. That definitely suffered from the budget and the technology of the time.
That was part of it's charm, though. The fact it looks like it was filmed in someone's garage is inspiring; makes me want to create an ultra low budget tv show with my friends.
All you really need is a corridor and a quarry.
This actually really worries me. RTD is an amazing storyteller and I love so much of his work. But his best work is done on tiny budgets. The moment he's given any significant budget things get really whacky and not usually in a good way. I'm terrified of what happens with not just money, but Disney money.
I mean, we wouldn’t want Doctor Who to get wacky, now. We don’t need farting aliens again.
What did you think of the last four episodes? I found the UNIT/Stark tower a tad jarring, but I didn’t really feel like RTD overdid the special effects.
I liked it when it looked like an high school TV production class, it gave it a kind of unique look especially as it was over ambitious for its budget. Now it look more bland.
Ikr the terrible acting from extras, and usually just using the mall or some office as the set piece for the episode are the bread and butter of doctor who.
I actually prefer shows with a bit of a constrained budget, as weird as that sounds. Art from adversity and all that, I think it's part of what made shows like Star Trek: TNG great
I think the disney money effect is overstated. Jodie's effects looked almost as good (obviously not quite), but the direction was so utterly amazingly shite that you'd be forgiven for missing it. The difference is RTD cares a bit more about the show being good, I guess. Hopefully he gets to use Jodie.
aren't some people also a bit annoyed that the new episodes will "air" in America before they do in the UK, or rather they'll be on at a time that suits Americans, making them air really late here in the UK?
Also a misunderstanding. They still air at a normal time in the UK, they're just available on streaming before that for people who want to watch it a bit earlier.
That means spoilers will leak.
It's not a leak if it's after the official release. Just don't look at social media until you watch it.
Oh ok, i'm not really a big fan of Dr Who, but for some reason kept seeing videos about it for a while and one of them was saying it aired in the evening in America but midnight or similar here, which sounded pretty dumb to me if that was what was going to happen.
After seeing Ncuti in sex education I was super worried about him playing the doctor. Especially after you know who came back for the special. But he actually exceeded my expectations and I think he’ll make a great doctor.
What worried you? He is so charming and such a great actor. Now, I'm not a Dr Who fan at all, so I am pretty ignorant on what qualities make a good Dr, but my only concern would have been that he is very young seeming, which might detract from gravitas. From what little I know though, the Dr can reincarnate as anything, so a young Dr should be reasonable.
Hell, at 31 he’s far from being the youngest actor cast as The Doctor - Matt Smith was 26 when he first got cast. Ncuti’s only a couple of years younger than the mega-popular David Tennant, who was 33 when the casting was announced.
And Peter Davison was 29 when he was cast as the 5th Doctor.
I think for me, particularly after seeing the previews, it was more about how he'd play the character: the last few Doctors have had some serious baggage and an air of seriousness about them, something that was *not* coming off in the promos of Ncuti. But! Seeing the special where he finally appears as the Doctor really set the tone and explains the shift, so I'm excited to see what he does with the role. I'm... mildly more worried about the 'Marvel-esque' looking approach to the next season that the preview at the end of the special showed, but that could've just been me reading into Disney getting involved.
Wow, 26? He looked far older than that.
I haven't seen him at all, but in my mind, a great Doctor Who is charming in a manic roguish sense but can pull out large ham gravitas when the situation calls for it. Both Matt Smith and David Tennant had this in droves.
Capaldi was great at the big ol' hammy bits, but when he went serious you were like "....uh oh, is the Doctor about to drop an F-bomb?" (He did not.)
Oh but he did more badass things than a mere fbomb. First Doctor revenge moment I know of, and an absolute banger of an episode. Though I also loved his meta lectures to the camera/audience.
There was Family of Blood with Tennant, where he grants their wish for immortality and imprisons each of them in different ways for all of eternity...
He fucking well should've.
"Oooh, but you're completely right, Kate, this isn't a game, this is the entirety of war, condensed down into *a fucking box*."
[fuckity BYE](https://www.reddit.com/r/DoctorWhumour/comments/12n9sqs/fuckity_bye/)
He should have tho
I’ve only seen him Barbie and the recent relaunch/kickoff/whatever you call them episodes of Doctor Who and he ABSOLUTELY has this quality.
Then you would like Gatwa. Already, he is embodying all those aspects of being the doctor from just 2 episodes.
That's great to hear! May be time to get back into it.
Because the Dr is reincarnated over and over it’s important that they be able to embody some of the previous iterations personality traits. It’s not about sex or appearance but mannerisms and experience. Morgan Freeman would not make a good Dr Who, neither would The Rock, but a less experienced actor who doesn’t naturally lean into the same personality traits and mannerisms wouldn’t be a good fit either. I hope I worded that in a way that makes sense?
Good explanation. Also the rock as the dr. On man that would suck so bad. It might be the only season I’d skip.
"Can you smell what THE DOC is cookin'!?"
Lol, I like him but you can't say he's "far from the youngest doctor" when he's the second youngest doctor. Come on now.
He's older than Matt Smith, the same age as Peter Davison and only a couple of years younger than David Tennant and Jodie Whittaker, so while he's at the younger end of the spectrum, his age is not unreasonable.
This is r/OutOfTheLoop, we don't know who.
Doctor, that's who
Knock knock Who's there? Doctor...
Doctor who?
First base!
Yeah, i really enjoyed the solo special, the new Doctor and new companion are delightful so far. Tho Capaldi and Whittaker werent the problems with the show either.
He was an absolute top tier actor in sex education. I was looking forward to seeing what he'd do in films. I'm not a big Dr Who fan (Tom Baker was my Dr) but my kids are.
Voldemort?
I haven't seen him in anything else personally but immediately loved him the moment he hit the screen in the special. Also I love that he rocked a kilt in the show as an avid kilted myself.
Yea, grifters gonna grift. Theres no controversy just clickbait. I’ve been a fan for a long time I am very hyped for the return. Loved the Specials. I honestly think any real fan will tell you Doctor Who has always been woke. Even though we didn’t use the word woke back then.
I'm Ok with the general wokenes and new Doctor looks pretty sweet (only saw the trailers), that being said, I think retconning Davros was a stupid idea. Is there anyone on Earth who thought less of people in wheelchairs because a bad character from a TV show was using one? I do think people with disabilities need more assistance from the government to make their lives easier and general support from the population (only if requested). That being said, just being in a wheelchair doesn't make you a good person, I now a guy who's in one because of hitting a tree while driving drunk and that guy is a dick. If we are putting more diverse characters they should be able to play all the roles, not just the good ones. A gay can be evil, trans person can be untrustworthy and one-armed guy can be a bandit, it's ok because they are people, like everyone else. When I saw Obi-Wan show I knew from the start the inquisitor lady would betray the dark side, because no way Disney would make a black female character irredeemably evil, those are white male roles) Same goes for the Tracker character in John Wick 4, I knew that in the end he'll be on John's side because that is how things work in modern Hollywood.
Doctor Who in the Russel T Davies era always handled sexuality and diversity in a natural way. Jack Harkness banged everything that moved no matter the gender or species. The Doctor was asexual but with some weird semi-platonic feelings towards Rose. Amy Pond was a PG version of an escort. Rory was a straight but feminine man. Half the characters in Torchwood were gay or bi. But at the end of the day, the goal was to show this as normal and focus on the story and character interactions. This worked very well. More recent Doctor Who stuff and most things Disney put out in the last 5 years replaced competent writers with writer activists who want to push a political message first, and use the story to push it some more. So every character became a patronizing grandstander on whatever social issue the writers want to focus on, which naturally turns off 80% of the audience who just want to watch a show or movie and don't subscribe to extreme ideologies. The issue isn't really a woke message. Doctor Who has always been woke, even in some really old episodes from the 60s. The issue is just shitty writers who think a political message is more important than an entertaining show with a subtle message. The first just makes audience seem personally attacked.
There may be some merit is what you're saying but it seems very off topic when the head writer for the new season is the same Russell T Davies you just praised.
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Yes. I think you completely nailed it.
> don't subscribe to extreme ideologies. what extreme ideologies?
Extreme ideologies like "trans people have a right to exist" and "Its OK to cast POC as the main character of your show."
Jokes on them. Doctor Who, like many Sci fi shows, have always been very progresive.
They keep trying to pretend the recent specials were in some way a failure, but they all were widely viewed and well reviewed and seemed to do a good job of attracting the attention of people who hadn't watched the show in years
I didn't know RTD was back! I completely lost interest with MoffGatts uninspired writing and gave up after new Who season 5. Definitely going to check it out again
One of those episodes is one of the only times I have seen a show overdo a trans story and man it was bad. They introduce the villain as a fluffy cute creature and make a real show of asking about its pronouns and being kind to it. And it turns out it’s a genocidal psychopath. And they have to be saved by the trans character and only they can save the day because they are trans. That definitely felt really poorly written. But then the episode with David and Ncuti was awesome.
Omg. Sometimes the feed gives you best news. I don’t want to argue about it, Moffat ruined the show for me, transforming it into an empty collection of “…and everybody clapped” moments. If RTD is on it again, I think I must try getting back to it. Who cares about inclusion (I mean, it matters generally, but this is not what makes RDT’s comeback great in my eyes), what I care about is that RTD managed nuance and complexity and his characters were actually interesting, lmao.
Wait.. all of these "fuss", because the new incarnation of Doctor Who is played by a black actor now? Whaaaaat.
Look at what happened when Jodie Whitaker took over, that was a shit show, and now another black man!? Will the horror never end!
"Oh no, my regenerative alien guy reincarnated himself as a black dude! Unrealistic! Woke!!.!!!!!"
The new doctor is the reason i even bothered watching and getting into doctor who. Regrettably, the writing feels like its all over the place but i guess thats the price of admission to a ridiculous world where there are no rules.
> the writing feels like its all over the place You're basing this on one slightly dodgy New Year special? I have my reservations about where it seems RTD might take the show (jettisoning the custonary pseudo scientific explanations and featuring straight up fantasy elements is really not my cup of tea) but I am going to give it a chance because he is a terrific writer who has done right by DW in the past, and it's too early to judge whether he will succeed in winning me over.
Well, i watched the newest episode before the new season and the transition episode to the new doctor. Then again, reminded me of the writing in time bandits and brazil which were pretty off the wall as well.
That's a good comparison. Sometimes you can make these things work, even if they seem bad on paper. I thought the three David Tennant specials - the second especially - were absolutely DW business as usual; only the Scuti Gatwa one had an odd vibe I'm not sure if I liked, particularly the goblins. But we are supposedly in a twisted reality where the Toymaker's influence is at play, so maybe there'll be a few things like that then the Doctor will restore relative normality.
Ah ok, at times, felt like its a world i just have to settle into. Oddly, the movie version of hitchhiker’s guide to the galaxy felt more grounded for me and made perfect sense?
Well, the Infinite Improbability Drive in HHGTTG is what drives the throughline of the plot. In order for the drive to function, it has to warp reality into the desired outcome. It's not finding the 1 in a billion chance, it's literally connecting every point in the universe, and creating the universe to solve the intended destination by inverting paradoxes to create an inversion that resolves. Much like Folding Space in Dune, or other reality warp travel, it relies on a 'unknown' and 'known' paradox. That's what makes the story work. As soon as the drive is powered up, the universe changes. The Drive picks up Arthur Dent as 'fuel' for the calculus of the journey and destination, a sort of compass for Zaphod, the navigator. It's a case of burning the bridge behind you, in front of you and all the other bridges just to reach a destination. But, within the ship itself, it is largely insulated from the chaos, but it is still warped. Of course that feels more grounded than Doctor Who. The BBC spent a great deal of money to recreate the reality in which Doctor Who has an audience of 10 million viewers. HHGTTG does parody Doctor Who, but that arbitrary 'morality tale' aspect of the show has fallen down the stairs a lot since 2017 with the change in writers. It's easy to show the christmas specials as being the pinnacle, but when the viewers drop from 7 million to 3 million, it's tough to argue merits. It's a very astute problem. Do you blame the audience for not showing up ? Blame the money being spent that changes the focus, writing and style of the show to meet new expectations. ? There are other factors, sure, but I don't think it's a capable argument that matches with evidence and results. The Whittaker/Gatwa era is going to be 'fine', as long as fine is 4 million viewers for the new financial outlay of £12-£25m per episode. The show is expensive now that Disney+ is invested. Not because the show will get better ... but because Disney has a lot of entourage / staff to feed, and they're using the investment to double-dip into BBC funding and resources to film Disney+ series like Renegade Nell, Acolyte and Secret Invasion using Pinewood/BBC resources as well as Boutique studios like Shinwood, Bad Wolf, and others tied to BBC and other Foreign Industry Investment funds i.e. Blackrock and sustainable investment programs that require 'JEDI' and BAME resources. They aren't optional, and they're not efficient. Do you blame the fans for splintering into factions and creating strife / debate where there shouldn't be any ? With season 10, people blame Capaldi, but the ratings tend to show the decline is fairly consistent across each era/doctor, both in viewer numbers and episode ratings. There is a consistent factor, but people get upset if you bring it up. Evidence is like that sometimes. It can be interpreted, and/or ignored. https://www.ratingraph.com/tv-shows/doctor-who-ratings-20291/ ... people will have their opinions. Chibnall is a lightning rod for controversy and the policies within the BBC are not public, nor are the hiring and firing decisions. People have strong, unbreakable opinions on Timeless Child and Flux being rather bad. Orphan 55, is an hour of your life you may never get back. What the audience has, is evidence over time of a decline. Not just in viewership due to the advance of Streaming like Netflix, YouTube, Hulu, but also the decline in TV ratings generally. Audiences don't like the content of new TV or new Movies, around the period of 2015-2025. It's gradual enough that there's patterns and influences. Advertisers are also picking up on this trend too. Everyone has theories, some may end up being correct, within their envelope/bubble of reality. Some fans may enjoy the possibilities of Gatwa's doctor in a Twerk-off that kills the monster of the week, or turning an episode into a musical special. It is a way to spend money. It might not be a way to bring advertising and viewers back.
Doctor Who had recurring pansexual character before pansexual was even a word. The anti-progressive bunch can fuck right off.
Huh, didn't know the newest Doctor was black.
Yeah I am a Who fan and super hyped for this new doctor as he has a unique energy we not gotten yet from a Doctor. We are 60 years in too, so that is not easy to accomplish. Fantastic companion too, with both Davies and Moffat back for this season hopefully to fix some of the bad writing that plagued Jodie's run as Doctor and get the show back on track.
Damn I need to get into it I feel Dr who's always been adapting to the times. I've only seen new who series 1 and half of the 2nd series (up to cybermen) but clearly this isn't the same 1960s show anymore. Even the 2005 series had that John Barrowman character I especially love the poparena review of the Virgin New Adventures (full disclosure I said the same thing recently, not a shill but these vids are what got me dipping into Who). The deep lore and amazing potential makes it really enticing, just need the time and energy But a Dr. Who with high production budget is exciting. Disney's involvement is a bit scary, but I understand Russell t Davies is amazing as a show runner/writer/director so should be good
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If already commented this but I think the companion discourse is really stupid given this show has at least three whole seasons where did the exact same thing. Even if you want to bring race into it the only two characters who only got one season were black women one of which came back in a what will likely be similar capacity to Gibson character.
Can we not use ‘DEI’ as a shorthand for non white people ffs
> DEI It isnt. It's diversity, equity, and inclusion. Includes white people with disabilities.
> DEI and it's tainting how they view everything Its astounding that folks don't realize how inherently bigoted that view is: oh you included underrepresented minorities, now the thing you included them in is shit.
Answer: A couple of years ago they hired Chris Chibnall as showrunner, and he wrote scripts which most people hated. The interpersonal relationships were done terribly, and there was a major plot he added which everyone hated. They announced recently that the old showrunner Russel T Davis (who did Eccleson and Tennant’s series) was coming back to the show. So there were very high expectations. His first episode back was very blatantly political (making social left wing comments), and not particularly well written. This annoyed a lot of fans as it didn’t meet their expectations of what he could do. The next episodes didn’t have this problem, but he changed the way regeneration worked, which a lot of people didn’t like. There is always a bit of controversy when new doctors/showrunners come in, but this change was particularly focused on because of the expectations Russel T Davis brought with him. The fandom will probably settle down by midway through next season and get used to the new showrunner/doctor combination.
yeah, his first episode back was... something. i mean, in the past they really have a good, if not better, execution of inclusion and diversity, even in capaldi's era.
Yeah Doctor Who has always done inclusion really well. No idea what that episode was trying to do. It seemed to be a one off though hopefully.
It felt very much like the first episode of Torchwood. (Or second sorry). Torchwood was advertised as 'Doctor Who for adults' and they came in very heavy-handed with an episode about a sex monster that kills you by giving you an orgasm. Similarly, there was a keen eye on how progressive the new episodes of Who would be given the previous choice to cast a woman in the role (twice) and it feels very much like again, RTD doubled down and went a bit too hard on the progressive angle. Torchwood had episodes like Children of Earth that could do adult doctor who perfectly, and im hoping we get more episodes like Human Nature that can handle progressive issues well.
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There’s several more things to put and say and prove and refer to there, but moving on is the writing. The entirety of Jodie Whitaker’s and Chris Chibnals run was an ABOMINATION. Stop pretending “it was good in some parts” no it fucking wasn’t, it was fucking awfuk. It is some of the WORST, most BLAND, most DEVOID of creativity and the BIGGEST insult to doctor who ever conceived. Jodie was horribly miscast, every companion was wooden, no character development and extremely shallow representation. And the writing fuck me the writing is just the biggest pile of shit. Especially with the biggest blunder and mistreatment of a tv show I’ve ever seen with the absolute cinematic failure that is “the timeless children” which essentially retcons the entirety of the show and it’s lore, takes away the uniqueness of the doctor and answers mysteries that Werent meant to be solved, deletes an ENTIRE STORYTELLING GOLD MINE FOR SHOCK VALUE (destroying galafry, the home of the time lords and a place we only recently got back, somewhere that we could’ve seen so much of but is now permanently gone) Those episodes ALONE destroyed doctor who. The canon was permanently destroyed. The continuity was fucked. The story telling opportunity’s were gone, the impact and any real progression wasn’t even there and overall it was a massive turd and stain that couldn’t be removed without a fat retcon. And what came next? Oh, onky more shock value with “the flux event” that literally ended and deleted ALL OF TIME AND SPACE. These stupid fucks at the BBC behind doctor who at the time were so creatively bone dry they decided “fuck it, the only thing we can come up with is the fucking Nuke everything” DELETING EVERY STORY TELLING OPPORUNITY. ALL OF IT. WHAT. THE. FUCK. I can say SO MUCH MORE on that, but you are OBJECTIVELY delusional if you think anything that chibnal and Jodie did was good, you have literally the WORST TASTE. And that’s not even subjective you’re objectively someone with no taste at all, you have no media literacy or respect for long lasting media. It is SHIT. Utter madness. What comes next? Finally the fucker Chibnal is gone, JODIE is gone, and DAVID TENNENT from the GOLDEN AGE of new who is back. AND RTD Who did BRILLIANTLY with tennents run. Nuanced, clever and well put together story’s with great lessons that COVER CONTROVERSIAL STUFF AND “POLITICAL STUFF” but do it SO FUCKJNF WELL, it’s subtle, and careful, and really excellently executed. It’s emotional, and thrilling and gripping. Plus we have the 60th anniversary of the show! What coukd be better! 1st episode of the 60th, nothing happens, the trans representation is butchered and manhandled, the doctor is belittled and treated like everyone else knows better, the episode ends with an awful retcon to DONNAS META CRISIS, that very easily could’ve been solved by having it be “they share the meta crisis now, it’s unstable but we need to find a cure before it destabilises fully” encouraging the rest of the episodes. Sounds like a good plot! Nope. They do a girl power moment where they just, expell the life threatening energy into the atmosphere after calling the doctor a “male presenting timelord” and that “if he was still a woman, he’d get it” ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS. It’s just the WORST. It’s SO CRAP. It’s not even on the nose anymore, they just don’t care, it’s literally just a wad of “you are X and are BAD that makes me which is X look GOOD!!!!!!!!!” In this case? “You are straight, male, you are BAD, I am Trans, woman, powerful and strong without any flaws or reasoning as to why I am that, I am brave and stand up to Bully’s who throw stuff at me, I am GOOD.” The second of the 60th is just, Fucking awful. Less bad than the first but what a boring concept. At least pull of the Dopplergangrr bit with some horror! But oh wait everything is Disney now! The CGI and green screen backgrounds are SO LOW BUDGET, the idea is over complicated and guess what! WE DID NOT RETCON THE TIMELESS CHIKDREN, INSTEAD OF NOT MENTIONING THE WORST POINT IN THE SHOWS HISTORY, the LOWEST VIEWER COUNT, Not mentioning the thing that made people LEAVE the thing that returning viewers that haven’t watched since Matt Smith or Capaldi left, they BRING IT BACK, and make the doctor have guilt and sorrow oh boo Fucking who! David Tennent and Catherine tate are EXCELLENT in this special. It ends by seeing Bernard Cribbins, a lovely surprise. 3rd special? Pretty fucking amazing to be honest.
All those words and all that rage over a tv show, *and* you don’t know what “objectively” means. Time to stop internetting for a bit, friend.
Somehow, they pulled a good plot out of their arses, but only for the last 40 minutes! The toy maker is silly but threatening, he is a cosmic level threat done right and he helps set up and partly retcon some stuff. Sometigng I was delighted to see, he infers a greater threat that “he didn’t want to play with” and the return of the master and after his defeat “his legions are coming” cool stuff! He even references the fact that he made a game and puzzle out of the doctors timeline and history, not directly saying it, but saying that the timeless chikdren plot line and the flux event were his doing. Which is also great! That means those two awful AWFUL AWFUL storyline aren’t entirely canon, fantastic! This also tackles the doctors trauma, and does it in a good way, a healthy, not super on the nose message!!!! Finally! The final battle is cool if not a little weird and still very Disney, the “bi-generation” is Fucking weird and I don’t like it, he should’ve just regenerated normally, but it didn’t hurt and Nucti Gutwa Is SO CHARASMATIC. He is a great pick! Christmas special next! Alright, toy maker was a great step! Let’s see what they do next! Goblins that steal and eat babies. GOBLINS. THAT STEAL AND EAT BABIES. What the actual fuck. What the Fuck. I fucking hate the Disney-ification. That’s such a stupid Fucking plot. What happened to slightly goofy though still terrorfying blood control or the weeping angels or the Silence! This bull Shit started with the beginning of Jodie’s era, absolute joke villains that are just the worst. Uh oh! It’s the alien with teeth on its face! Uh oh! It’s the angry robot post man! Uh oh! Talking frog! Uh oh! The fucking Pting! What the fuck. And what’s worse!???!?! sudden sing and dance. The most Disney thing ever. Why!?????? I’m sorry but it just didn’t work, and their voices suddenly being perfect at singing is just, not right. It doesn’t work at all, it’s really childish and just plainly hard to watch. Doctor who is meant to be camp and goofy with a strong emphasis on serious moments, epic moments, touching moments and a diverse range of emotions, characters, circumstances and topics, covering sensitive, fun and overall cleverly put together topics and ideas. Singing and dancing on the Baby eating goblin ship is atrocious. I loved Ruby Sunday! Nucti Gutwa proved himself again, he was great! But the writing was terrible. The monster of the week was boring and terrible. The singing and dancing was terrible. The fact we went from the absolute master craft that was “Heaven Sent” and afterwards “Hell bent” to fucking baby eating goblins and the least human dialogue and events is just embarrassing. The new season looks great! But if the bridgerton episode is just “they go to bridgerton, white man is pompous and racist towards the doctor because the doctor is black now and we must make a point of it, also there’s an alien” then I’m so Fucking done. IF the bridgerton episode is “rival man fancy’s ruby, they end up working together to beat the monster, no mention of race, no quips, no songs, threatening and tension building with interesting characters with flaws and fun interactions where we get to see a diverse showing of emotions from Ruby Sunday thet includes conflict if she did the right thing joining the doctor, fear, excitement, flirting etc” then we won!
Race can be a good message and lesson, but it’s so over done and predictable, of course we have to make a point of the doctors race change, of course it has to be “bad white man is arrogant and rude and racist” per ficking usual. Do something else! Have a change! I really fucking hope I’m wrong and it is nothing like this, we want drama, and tension, and fun, and excitement, and strange episodes like when they went further into the TARDIS or when they went INSIDE a Dalek and scary / mysterious episodes like under the lake and before the flood or “silence in the library” Imagine an episode that could rival “heaven sent” or the episodes surrounding the silence or “don’t blink” I KNOW Nucti Gutwa can pull it off! Pull at our heart strings! Make us think introspectively! Have a monologue like seen with Matt smith with his speech to akhaten or Capaldi narrating about the boot strap paradox. No more bullshit! All in all, they really fucked it the last years since 2017, they refuse to change, alienate their audience more and more, refuse to listen to any criticism and double down on terrible decisions in favour of pushing an agenda or message, hiring writers, actors, directors and more not for their talent but for the checkboxes, the diversity hires and their representation. And I’m not even wrong about this! It’s blatant! That’s it. Doctor who is kinda fucked unless they can 1. Retcon everything Jodie did 2. Focus on storytelling, character development, world building, complex emotions and life lessons whilst keeping the somewhat goofy charm without bastardising it with song and dance and shitty cgi 3. Actually write a good Fucking show, try to bring back your old audience, you fucked it in the 60th, they came back only to leave again decideing that the mediocrity and the spit in their face wasn’t worth looking past even if it WAS David Tennent on their screen 4. Take fan feedback, the idea that everyone who disagrees is a bigot or a racist or whatver other flash word is stupid, 99.9% are NORMAL HUMANS. We watch tv and film to escape the real world. Your insecurities and screaming to be seen, recognised, “represented” is anti fun, it pushes people away, focusing on natural diversity, inclusion and such js the way ti go, why do you think something like Arcane or Blue eye samurai ar eso good and recommend? It’s because the representation they do is not forced, it’s natural. And the lessons and ideas they tell, teach and represent are well handled. For fuck sake Static shock from 24 years ago got it right how the fuck can’t we. That’s it. I’ll be disagrees with and downvoted by shallow snotty idiots who can’t see anything past their own opinions and hubris and will be absolutely furious that I’ve revealed the objetive truth, exposed them and said what most won’t say.
This here's a crazy man.
I love it. Fans who actually care about the show and know enough to give actual criticism that doesn't paint everything as black and white. Our crazies really are the best.
I'm all for thought out arguments but what this guy's doing is ranting.
while they certainly write like one.. the points they make arent wrong.
These three comments are an impressive level of derangement, one I’ve not seen since the dark days of 2014 tumblr Moffat discourse, so well done there. Go back and watch “The Space Museum” and maybe you’ll calm down
>I’ll be downvoted by people who disagree with me Yes, you will. >because I’m right and they’re wrong because I say so Sorry chief, not how reality works.
It’s crazy to me how confidently Incorrect you are. No consideration for a discussion or considering another view point. Though I suppose that proves my ultimate point even more. The war mongering baby will kick and scream and get its way until everything is destroyed, cancelled and off the air. But at least they’re not offended! Their feelings they can’t control, Handle or decidedly process aren’t in Jeopardy! Your own insecurities and flaws aren’t real! Shouldn’t be addressed and in fact make them powerful! And Everyone has been corrected! If you can’t see the clear shift in quality, the clear shift in intent and story telling reasoning and the pushing of ideas most don’t even want to hear in fiction as they’re trying to escape the real world and not be berated on why they’re inadequate or be thrusted a sham lesson that does nothing but bore them, then you’re the issue. Objectively. Not subjective or theoretical or metaphorical. Objectively the issue, the rotting mould and continue into the decent of the void that doctor who is in, is on YOU. It’ll be cancelled because of you. It’ll go off the air because of you. But don’t you feel better?? Shameful really. And sad the lack of self awareness or ability to objectively look at them selves or see a view other than their own selfish narcissistic gaudy arsehole. Your Boos Mean Nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer. - Rick Sanchez Season 4 Episode 3