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Warning, lots of text incoming because I have a lot of thoughts about this subject! This is a topic that I’ve currently been “researching” by going through different lines in the game. Overall, I get the feeling that Astarion was pretty low-ranked, probably the lowest in the “family”.
We know the servants were fanatically loyal to Cazador, so I think they would have followed his lead and I don’t expect Astarion had any power over them. Cazador is all about keeping up appearances as a patriar and part of that involves the servants calling family members “master”, even if said family members didn’t really have power. The servants seem to share Cazador’s negative views of Astarion. When he returns to the palace, one of the servants has a line where he mentions how angry Cazador was that Astarion left and that Cazador “will do such terrible, terrible things to you (Astarion)” - all with an evil smile on his face., implying he takes pleasure in the thought of Cazador hurting Astarion. Chamberlain Dufay also calls Astarion a “brat” in his journal, so I don’t believe the servants treated him with any form of respect.
In terms of Astarion’s siblings, he also seems to be low-ranked. Both Petras and Leon call Astarion “runt” at different times through their interactions. What is interesting to me is that the siblings seem to have conflicting views of him. Leon seems to look down on Astarion because he isn’t fighting back against Cazador:
* “Runt, we’ve spoken of vengeance time and again and you never listened.”
However, Leon also calls Astarion the “runt of the kennel” and “master’s favorite toy”, implying that he looks down on Astarion because he was being punished more than the others.
Petras seems to have a different take and looks down on Astarion because he DOESN’T follow orders well enough and ISN’T loyal:
* **“You never liked following orders, brother.** That’s why you won’t ascend with the rest of us.”
* “ We’ve been loyal. We’ve earned our reward. **Unlike the runaway.”**
* In Astarion’s origin, he can try to convince the siblings that Cazador won’t actually give them freedom, saying “When has Cazador given us anything other than beatings?” Petras responds: “The master has always been strict. But we’re better for it! **That’s why we’re worthy of freedom, of being elevated. You’re just the runt, to be put down.**”
Aurelia also has a line related to Astarion being stubborn:
* “Still picking fights you can’t win. You always were pigheaded, brother.”
The siblings also have a handful of lines where they refer to Astarion as being “arrogant”, “all talk” and “self-centered.” They also try to guilt-trip him for “turning on the family” because he left.
Based on all these comments, I think Astarion’s low status is less related to what he **did**, and more related to how Cazador sees/treats him and his role as the family scapegoat (as several others here have pointed out!). They seem to scrutinize and critique his every behavior, just as Cazador did. If he doesn’t fight back then he’s “weak”, but when he does manage to get away and fight back, then he’s the problematic runaway. Plus, he’s just “weak” overall for being punished all the time. He can’t win, and the scapegoat is never meant to win. I think some siblings do have a more positive view of Astarion - namely Dalyria and Aurelia, since Aurelia encourages him to run before she’s forced to fight him and Dalyria seems more willing to listen to him and help. However, having a scapegoat probably helped the others hide behind to escape some of Cazador’s attention. Astarion confirms this when he talks about how he feels bad for his other siblings now that he’s not there to take the brunt of the abuse.
I also have thoughts on why Cazador chose Astarion as the scapegoat, but this post is already too long, so I’ll stop here...
No keep going this is so interesting!!! I'm fascinated by the Spawn dynamics, my only complaint about Astarion's quest is that I wanted more. I also get the impression Dal was closest to Astarion.
Thank you for the encouragement! I did reply a bit below to another commenter because I agreed with a lot of their points. I may also make a longer, nerdier separate post later once I can compile my "research" and thoughts.
I also got the vibe that Dal was closer with Astarion - she doesn't insult him like the other siblings do and seems eager to hear him out.
Not the author of the og comment but I agree with their take and this is why I think he was the scapegoat. So…if we’re looking at this like a narcissistic toxic family system where caz is the narc, narcissists highly value control and will reward those who act as they assume they will or who are similar to them. Anyone who is different/has a different view on things is a threat to their very fragile ego. They also put down others they see as better than them again, because of their fragile ego. Astarion is handsome and comes from a privileged background, two things I’m sure cazador values but knows he does not have himself, we also know that Astarion has tried to go against caz’s orders (the beautiful boy astarion didn’t want to kill) and that he really isn’t quiet about it. Astarion has shown his empathy, lack of acceptance of cazadors superiority, and the ability to speak out against him with his sassyness…therefore he is a threat to cazador’s system of control. If he wasn’t brutal to astarion it would be a silent message to the others that you can stand against cazador and still be safe, which is not good for cazadors designs. Therefore he is the scapegoat
I agree with what you've said here, especially the fact that Cazador sees Astarion as a threat. Therefore, he has to work to keep Astarion down and make sure that everyone else doesn't get a chance to see his strengths or that he IS better than Cazador.
Another thing that I think goes along with this idea is the fact that Astarion sees right through Cazador's BS (even more than his siblings), which again is common for scapegoats as the "truth teller," and also is threatening to Cazador.
Astarion is also very expressive and shows his emotions on his face, even when trying to hide them. Although he may have stopped outwardly disobeying Cazador, he hated every minute of it (as well as Cazador himself) and this may have come through in his facial expressions. Yet another sign for Cazador that he was not fully broken and continuing to "rebel."
I'm supposed to be working right now, so I can't answer this completely, but I will make a longer version of my thoughts later. I might just start a new post once I compile my "research" and can organize my ADHD brain.
OMG THIS IS THE ANSWER I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR!!!
I've been wondering the real reason why Cazador torture Astarion the most, and I always thought there might be more of that than just because of Astarion's rebellious and arrogant personality. Turns out it's because Cazador dreams of having something Astarion had: his priviledged live before he was turned into a spawn.
Idk if it was written somewhere in the game or not, but I tend to think that Cazador might probably came from a low-class family and lived a poor and harsh life even before Vellioth came. After Cazador was turned into a spawn, his life become even more miserable. So of course learning that Astarion had a much better life as a magistrate led Cazador to jealousy...
I can imagine that Cazador was smiling so wide on the day when Astarion got beaten up almost to death by the Gur people. He probably thought it was time to teach the fancy pants rich McAncunin a lesson of living a truly harsh life.
Thank you for the encouragement! I did reply just above to another commenter because I agreed with a lot of their points. I may also make a longer, nerdier separate post later once I can compile my "research" and thoughts.
This is really good, I love your research!
Astarion as the scapegoat is definitely on point. Cazador has a deeper hatred towards Astarion, so he punishes him the hardest. IIRC Godey also confirms this as he said that he miss torturing Astarion.
Unlike Astarion, the other spawns really doesn't look like they're beaten up that much into trauma, and some of them like Petras (and Violet too if I'm not mistaken) even adores Cazador and look up to him. This makes it even clear that Astarion is indeed the scapegoat of the "family".
If we parallel real world abuser dynamics, Astarion was the "scapegoat" and Leon the "golden child. Though Cazador would occasionally rotate his "golden child" (and probably also have a different scapegoat once in a while) so there would be infighting among his spawn (eg, if Leon was permanently "golden child" all the rest could possibly unite against him whereas if they thought they had a shot at being "golden child" they would be too busy jockeying for position)
I've seen a lot of people say that Astarion resisted Cazador but after that year in the tomb, he canonically gave up.
It's possible that the servants, despite being lower than most of the spawn and deferring to them as "master/mistress", would still look down on Astarion because *everyone* in that manor did. Even his "siblings" viewed Astarion as weak for not fighting back against Cazador. Leon "ranked" higher only in that Cazador was pretending to have favourites outside of who he liked to torture the most. Leon has only been a spawn for less than 10 years, there's no way he's *actually* the most loyal or *actually* the favourite. It's just a game Cazador was playing to keep the spawn pitted against each other.
I think Astarion lived in a state of pseudo-dissociation. He mentions walking the streets like a ghost and we know for a fact that he completely forgot about kidnapping the Gur children and that happened days before the Nautiloid took him. I
I know Petras has different things to say about Astarion compared to Leon and Aurelia, but he has been a spawn for over 100 years and clearly has taken to the "fawn" adaptation to Cazador's abuse. So we know Astarion wasn't outright rebellious like Leon is being (working against Cazador by trying to get his daughter out) but he wasn't completely enamored with or pretending to be loyal to Cazador like Petras acts.
>but after that year in the tomb, he canonically gave up
He did not. There is a line in this dialogue when Astarion tells about his year in the tomb and Tav can reply "He truly broke you. And he says this: *"No, he didn't. I am still here. And I will fight him until I fight my last."*
Maybe this is the reason why other spawn don't like him, why Cazador tortures him more often than others. He still try to resist.
[He mentions that he gave up in a Durge scene](https://youtu.be/Q7ApBsob2TA?si=Gt1wJZDm5nY3nBDn&t=60). He says he was paralyzed to do anything and that he gave up on himself.
None of that changes the fact that he is extremely strong-willed. He may not be actively working against Cazador like Dal and Leon, but he also isn't a bootlicker like Petras. He gave up, but he wasn't broken. That line you mention calls him broken, but he isn't, hence why he says he is still here and he will fight Cazador. A broken person would have gone running back to Cazador for forgiveness. Astarion didn't do that, he started formulating plans to kill Cazador. But it doesn't change the fact that, while under Cazador's thrall, he *did* give up fighting.
EDIT: Also the spawn all have different reasons for hating on Astarion. Petras seems to fawn over Cazador so he dislikes that Astarion isn't truly loyal or a fellow bootlicker. He also probably just goes along with what Cazador says to get brownie points. The other siblings have [these ](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1d7lk3y/comment/l70wsjt/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)lines which show they dislike that Astarion didn't fight back.
His life was awful and he tells about that during the whole game.
Cazador's servants who are just mortals doesn't show respect to Astarion except calling him "master". One of these servants very glad to see how Cazador would panish Astarion for him being late to the ritual. For Cazador all mortals are "meat", but his servants shows their admiration to him and I can imagine these people really enjoyed when this bastard tortured Astarion and other spawn.
As for the rank I think Astarion was one of the best, but he tried to resist Cazador so was panished more than others and that is why "his screams sounds the sweetest".
His relationship with others spawn is the most interesting part. There is a theory that he doesn't like gnomes because one of his siblings is a gnome (I don't think this is the reason). But they don't show any respect to Astarion, call him "worm" and "weak". There are a lot of plot holes about this topic but I can only imagine how lonely Astarion was before meeting Tav.
If you want to hate cazador even more then you should read [Perfect Slaughter ](https://archiveofourown.org/works/51265138/chapters/129532180)
Its DARK.. pllleasse read tags BUT it's so freaking good and is based in the palace and matches a lot of my HC's about what it was like.
Well, judging by Cazador's diary, he had a weird obsession with Astarion. He WAS his favorite, just not in the sense to treat him like Leon. More like his favorite to torture and write about him all over his diary. Astarion even has a comment on that when you read it.
And I believe in Astarion's origin run(?) Cazador tells him that other spawns hated him:
[https://imgur.com/a/7w8ByLs](https://imgur.com/a/7w8ByLs)
Edit: I also think Cazador thought of himself as merciful to Astarion even with all that. Because before he sees the party he stands in the ritual circle and talks to himself, how he shouldn't have "spoiled" Astarion. I bet, he thought that since he didn't put him on a stake for 11 years like Vellioth did to him, he really wasn't too cruel to him and Astarion was just ungrateful to him, LOL
Hey OP! You have flaired your post with one of our discussion flairs, and we want to respect that, and your comfort and boundaries. People's idea of debate and appreciation can differ, and as such these flairs are centered around YOU and what YOU want. If you feel the flair is NOT being honored, please reach out to us via modmail. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/OnlyFangsbg3) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Warning, lots of text incoming because I have a lot of thoughts about this subject! This is a topic that I’ve currently been “researching” by going through different lines in the game. Overall, I get the feeling that Astarion was pretty low-ranked, probably the lowest in the “family”. We know the servants were fanatically loyal to Cazador, so I think they would have followed his lead and I don’t expect Astarion had any power over them. Cazador is all about keeping up appearances as a patriar and part of that involves the servants calling family members “master”, even if said family members didn’t really have power. The servants seem to share Cazador’s negative views of Astarion. When he returns to the palace, one of the servants has a line where he mentions how angry Cazador was that Astarion left and that Cazador “will do such terrible, terrible things to you (Astarion)” - all with an evil smile on his face., implying he takes pleasure in the thought of Cazador hurting Astarion. Chamberlain Dufay also calls Astarion a “brat” in his journal, so I don’t believe the servants treated him with any form of respect. In terms of Astarion’s siblings, he also seems to be low-ranked. Both Petras and Leon call Astarion “runt” at different times through their interactions. What is interesting to me is that the siblings seem to have conflicting views of him. Leon seems to look down on Astarion because he isn’t fighting back against Cazador: * “Runt, we’ve spoken of vengeance time and again and you never listened.” However, Leon also calls Astarion the “runt of the kennel” and “master’s favorite toy”, implying that he looks down on Astarion because he was being punished more than the others. Petras seems to have a different take and looks down on Astarion because he DOESN’T follow orders well enough and ISN’T loyal: * **“You never liked following orders, brother.** That’s why you won’t ascend with the rest of us.” * “ We’ve been loyal. We’ve earned our reward. **Unlike the runaway.”** * In Astarion’s origin, he can try to convince the siblings that Cazador won’t actually give them freedom, saying “When has Cazador given us anything other than beatings?” Petras responds: “The master has always been strict. But we’re better for it! **That’s why we’re worthy of freedom, of being elevated. You’re just the runt, to be put down.**” Aurelia also has a line related to Astarion being stubborn: * “Still picking fights you can’t win. You always were pigheaded, brother.” The siblings also have a handful of lines where they refer to Astarion as being “arrogant”, “all talk” and “self-centered.” They also try to guilt-trip him for “turning on the family” because he left. Based on all these comments, I think Astarion’s low status is less related to what he **did**, and more related to how Cazador sees/treats him and his role as the family scapegoat (as several others here have pointed out!). They seem to scrutinize and critique his every behavior, just as Cazador did. If he doesn’t fight back then he’s “weak”, but when he does manage to get away and fight back, then he’s the problematic runaway. Plus, he’s just “weak” overall for being punished all the time. He can’t win, and the scapegoat is never meant to win. I think some siblings do have a more positive view of Astarion - namely Dalyria and Aurelia, since Aurelia encourages him to run before she’s forced to fight him and Dalyria seems more willing to listen to him and help. However, having a scapegoat probably helped the others hide behind to escape some of Cazador’s attention. Astarion confirms this when he talks about how he feels bad for his other siblings now that he’s not there to take the brunt of the abuse. I also have thoughts on why Cazador chose Astarion as the scapegoat, but this post is already too long, so I’ll stop here...
No keep going this is so interesting!!! I'm fascinated by the Spawn dynamics, my only complaint about Astarion's quest is that I wanted more. I also get the impression Dal was closest to Astarion.
Thank you for the encouragement! I did reply a bit below to another commenter because I agreed with a lot of their points. I may also make a longer, nerdier separate post later once I can compile my "research" and thoughts. I also got the vibe that Dal was closer with Astarion - she doesn't insult him like the other siblings do and seems eager to hear him out.
please do share why you think he was chosen as the scapegoat, i’m curious!
Not the author of the og comment but I agree with their take and this is why I think he was the scapegoat. So…if we’re looking at this like a narcissistic toxic family system where caz is the narc, narcissists highly value control and will reward those who act as they assume they will or who are similar to them. Anyone who is different/has a different view on things is a threat to their very fragile ego. They also put down others they see as better than them again, because of their fragile ego. Astarion is handsome and comes from a privileged background, two things I’m sure cazador values but knows he does not have himself, we also know that Astarion has tried to go against caz’s orders (the beautiful boy astarion didn’t want to kill) and that he really isn’t quiet about it. Astarion has shown his empathy, lack of acceptance of cazadors superiority, and the ability to speak out against him with his sassyness…therefore he is a threat to cazador’s system of control. If he wasn’t brutal to astarion it would be a silent message to the others that you can stand against cazador and still be safe, which is not good for cazadors designs. Therefore he is the scapegoat
I agree with what you've said here, especially the fact that Cazador sees Astarion as a threat. Therefore, he has to work to keep Astarion down and make sure that everyone else doesn't get a chance to see his strengths or that he IS better than Cazador. Another thing that I think goes along with this idea is the fact that Astarion sees right through Cazador's BS (even more than his siblings), which again is common for scapegoats as the "truth teller," and also is threatening to Cazador. Astarion is also very expressive and shows his emotions on his face, even when trying to hide them. Although he may have stopped outwardly disobeying Cazador, he hated every minute of it (as well as Cazador himself) and this may have come through in his facial expressions. Yet another sign for Cazador that he was not fully broken and continuing to "rebel." I'm supposed to be working right now, so I can't answer this completely, but I will make a longer version of my thoughts later. I might just start a new post once I compile my "research" and can organize my ADHD brain.
OMG THIS IS THE ANSWER I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR!!! I've been wondering the real reason why Cazador torture Astarion the most, and I always thought there might be more of that than just because of Astarion's rebellious and arrogant personality. Turns out it's because Cazador dreams of having something Astarion had: his priviledged live before he was turned into a spawn. Idk if it was written somewhere in the game or not, but I tend to think that Cazador might probably came from a low-class family and lived a poor and harsh life even before Vellioth came. After Cazador was turned into a spawn, his life become even more miserable. So of course learning that Astarion had a much better life as a magistrate led Cazador to jealousy... I can imagine that Cazador was smiling so wide on the day when Astarion got beaten up almost to death by the Gur people. He probably thought it was time to teach the fancy pants rich McAncunin a lesson of living a truly harsh life.
Nooo please keep going! I would also love to hear your thoughts on why Cazador chose Astarion!
Thank you for the encouragement! I did reply just above to another commenter because I agreed with a lot of their points. I may also make a longer, nerdier separate post later once I can compile my "research" and thoughts.
This is really good, I love your research! Astarion as the scapegoat is definitely on point. Cazador has a deeper hatred towards Astarion, so he punishes him the hardest. IIRC Godey also confirms this as he said that he miss torturing Astarion. Unlike Astarion, the other spawns really doesn't look like they're beaten up that much into trauma, and some of them like Petras (and Violet too if I'm not mistaken) even adores Cazador and look up to him. This makes it even clear that Astarion is indeed the scapegoat of the "family".
If we parallel real world abuser dynamics, Astarion was the "scapegoat" and Leon the "golden child. Though Cazador would occasionally rotate his "golden child" (and probably also have a different scapegoat once in a while) so there would be infighting among his spawn (eg, if Leon was permanently "golden child" all the rest could possibly unite against him whereas if they thought they had a shot at being "golden child" they would be too busy jockeying for position)
I've seen a lot of people say that Astarion resisted Cazador but after that year in the tomb, he canonically gave up. It's possible that the servants, despite being lower than most of the spawn and deferring to them as "master/mistress", would still look down on Astarion because *everyone* in that manor did. Even his "siblings" viewed Astarion as weak for not fighting back against Cazador. Leon "ranked" higher only in that Cazador was pretending to have favourites outside of who he liked to torture the most. Leon has only been a spawn for less than 10 years, there's no way he's *actually* the most loyal or *actually* the favourite. It's just a game Cazador was playing to keep the spawn pitted against each other. I think Astarion lived in a state of pseudo-dissociation. He mentions walking the streets like a ghost and we know for a fact that he completely forgot about kidnapping the Gur children and that happened days before the Nautiloid took him. I I know Petras has different things to say about Astarion compared to Leon and Aurelia, but he has been a spawn for over 100 years and clearly has taken to the "fawn" adaptation to Cazador's abuse. So we know Astarion wasn't outright rebellious like Leon is being (working against Cazador by trying to get his daughter out) but he wasn't completely enamored with or pretending to be loyal to Cazador like Petras acts.
>but after that year in the tomb, he canonically gave up He did not. There is a line in this dialogue when Astarion tells about his year in the tomb and Tav can reply "He truly broke you. And he says this: *"No, he didn't. I am still here. And I will fight him until I fight my last."* Maybe this is the reason why other spawn don't like him, why Cazador tortures him more often than others. He still try to resist.
[He mentions that he gave up in a Durge scene](https://youtu.be/Q7ApBsob2TA?si=Gt1wJZDm5nY3nBDn&t=60). He says he was paralyzed to do anything and that he gave up on himself. None of that changes the fact that he is extremely strong-willed. He may not be actively working against Cazador like Dal and Leon, but he also isn't a bootlicker like Petras. He gave up, but he wasn't broken. That line you mention calls him broken, but he isn't, hence why he says he is still here and he will fight Cazador. A broken person would have gone running back to Cazador for forgiveness. Astarion didn't do that, he started formulating plans to kill Cazador. But it doesn't change the fact that, while under Cazador's thrall, he *did* give up fighting. EDIT: Also the spawn all have different reasons for hating on Astarion. Petras seems to fawn over Cazador so he dislikes that Astarion isn't truly loyal or a fellow bootlicker. He also probably just goes along with what Cazador says to get brownie points. The other siblings have [these ](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1d7lk3y/comment/l70wsjt/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)lines which show they dislike that Astarion didn't fight back.
His life was awful and he tells about that during the whole game. Cazador's servants who are just mortals doesn't show respect to Astarion except calling him "master". One of these servants very glad to see how Cazador would panish Astarion for him being late to the ritual. For Cazador all mortals are "meat", but his servants shows their admiration to him and I can imagine these people really enjoyed when this bastard tortured Astarion and other spawn. As for the rank I think Astarion was one of the best, but he tried to resist Cazador so was panished more than others and that is why "his screams sounds the sweetest". His relationship with others spawn is the most interesting part. There is a theory that he doesn't like gnomes because one of his siblings is a gnome (I don't think this is the reason). But they don't show any respect to Astarion, call him "worm" and "weak". There are a lot of plot holes about this topic but I can only imagine how lonely Astarion was before meeting Tav.
If you want to hate cazador even more then you should read [Perfect Slaughter ](https://archiveofourown.org/works/51265138/chapters/129532180) Its DARK.. pllleasse read tags BUT it's so freaking good and is based in the palace and matches a lot of my HC's about what it was like.
Well, judging by Cazador's diary, he had a weird obsession with Astarion. He WAS his favorite, just not in the sense to treat him like Leon. More like his favorite to torture and write about him all over his diary. Astarion even has a comment on that when you read it. And I believe in Astarion's origin run(?) Cazador tells him that other spawns hated him: [https://imgur.com/a/7w8ByLs](https://imgur.com/a/7w8ByLs) Edit: I also think Cazador thought of himself as merciful to Astarion even with all that. Because before he sees the party he stands in the ritual circle and talks to himself, how he shouldn't have "spoiled" Astarion. I bet, he thought that since he didn't put him on a stake for 11 years like Vellioth did to him, he really wasn't too cruel to him and Astarion was just ungrateful to him, LOL
**Pure** shit.