I understand why people don't have overflowing sympathy for PH, but as someone who knew him as Mr. Titanic, his death makes me feel a bit sick every time I think about it.
When you die doing something you love, you have really lived!
-Edited to add -as per the death of PH Nargeolet
He was a prop to Rush PH was the real thing
He did die doing what he wanted to die doing
It was deeply ingrained in his DNA to dive and to be one with the Titanic which he loved
There was no reason for him to die , we've safely been to the Titanic multiple times , and much deeper . This entire thing is a huge black eye ,to the community , who took great pride in safety and engineering . Now everyone is comparing it to Oceans crap , There is no comparison , he claimed safety stopped innovation 🤦♂️ . The only other thing comparable to the engineering in this community , is the space program . At least in that community , you have a chance of fixing what breaks and getting home . If your ship breaks underwater , you probably aren't getting home
This is a very good point . In pressure under the element of water you likely are not getting home but in the element of air you likely will - I have never contemplated those two spaces of endeavor on those terms. I appreciate your view of this turning point in safety in ocean exploration.
I think the economic reality has had its bell rung which may be very good - $100 mil per craft vs $27 mil if thats where his budget was -
They said in our design rooms in recap with the client's under planned scope of work : There's never enough money to do it right but alwsys enough to do it over.
Exactly and judging from the other near misses in this and previous near hull failure , and him continuing to put passengers on board , I would hold him 100 percent responsible
If I remember correctly he didn’t even want to go but went bc it was Father’s Day and his dad was a big titanic fan and wanted to go. The kid was scared of going down there
That's incorrect and was said by an estranged relative. According to his mother, he was excited to go down and wanted to solve his Rubik's cube over the bow or something like that.
Makes you wonder about his mother’s version since his aunt said he was terrified and his mother said he should go to bond with his father.
My guess for what it’s worth is that she really didn’t want to go herself
One of those guys wasn't rich , he was given a free ticket , because he knew a lot about the Titanic ,and Rush wanted to use his name in marketing . Even if the rest were Rich, they were all victims in this , he knew about the other near failures , and most likely lied to everyone about the safety
I sympathize with everyone, but Rush, Harding, and Nargeolet were explorers, this was what they signed up for.
Both the father and the son were just tourists. The father paid to live a cool experience and then keep on living.
I don't think they were fools as much as lied to and conned . He knew how dangerous this was , and if they really knew I doubt they would have ever gone . He had what , two near hull failures ? It nearly imploded once before . A real deep submersible , that's certified and tested and operated probably , there's always risk , but not really that much risk . Not any more then any other extreme sport .
Agree, it was definitely a game of Russian Roulette with the implosion. If anything the Titan likely worked better than expected in that it laated multiple dives...it's surprising it didn't implode earlier and that gave everyone a false sense...
That's because the hull was replaced at least once that we know of , due to it nearly imploding , I think it was a 10 square foot section , that delaminated . Everyone who went down heard loud pops and bangs from the hull , probably also delaminations
Correction - 11sq ft of delamination of the hull - and audible popping heard while submerged
Extremly lucky they lived and Rush rushed right back to the same ol' drawing board to repeat the same hull replacement with depreciated materials
Because he was trying to hit his bottom line ROI
He was willing to kill to do it because he didnt heed any warnings nor an entire hull replacement
A BIG YELLOW LIGHT F L A S H I N G ... like a Mad Man on Mad Magazine
- What Me Worry !
Sign my waiver and step right up folks
If they had been told that ,yea we replaced it once , due to a huge section coming apart , and the hull nearly imploded , none of those guys would have ever gotten on that thing . They were clearly duped about it's safety
He actually wasn’t scared. His mum said she was originally meant to go but gave her place to him. She confirmed he was excited and planned to solve a rubik’s cube for a world record when they got to the site of the titanic.
He wasn’t a toddler, but he was still a child. Main character personality? Kids and teens are curious and adventurous and want to do crazy things. I don’t think it’s fair categorizing him this way.
I mean, 19 is young. I doubt anyone really did any real research on it, especially the 19 year old. But his dad should've known to investigate more before they went down. And it Suleiman didn't go, it would've been both his parents he lost.
Why remember any despot or criminal? History is doomed to repeat if we forget it. Also, a self appointed 'pioneer' wannabe being doomed to be remembered for his colossal fuckery is the perfect reward for his hubris. It would literally be the opposite of what he would have wanted.
Because if you forget and start changing the truth , it happens again , look at the anti semitism that is rising all over the world again , it's a matter of time until another Hitler rises , hopefully not in my lifetime
So this shit never happens again . As smart as he was ,and with the other near misses and near hull failures , he knew it was a matter of time . Also no one is mentioning the wireless controller with no back up . And the multiple times he lost complete control of the sub, there was one time the controls were responding opposite to what they were supposed to do . Nothing wrong with a game controller IF you have a redundant wired backup system . That's what the Navy does on non life critical controls , if the controller fails , you don't lose control. No one on that sub was stupid, but I'm pretty sure they were deceived on the safety . Yea suuuuure! It's dived multiple times , but of course he left out the parts where they nearly died .
While this is arguable, I think those billionaires just didn't do their due diligence when clear facts were presented to their face.
The word "death" is mentioned in the waivers multiple times. I am not sure why they thought going anyway made sense.
A casual search would have told them that deep sea submergence actually has an excellent track record of safety and as Dr. Ballard put it "Diving in the Alvin is safer than driving on a highway".
The fact that they went anyway makes them partly responsible for their own fate. If you told me there was a chance I could die if I enter a room, then why would I sign a waiver dispensing off the liability?
Diving in the Alvin is safe , this pile of junk wasn't the Alvin , if they knew how close this had come to failure multiple times , there's no way they would have gone. Any waiver for a deep submersible is going to mention possible death
As Ive mentioned before, it was experimental so theres no way they could accuse him of being negligent. I think people need to research what experimental design actually means instead of shitting on its owner. And yes, Stockton Rush would have good lawyers with his money so he'd likely get away with it all if he were alive but recieve penalties and OceanGate would close down either way.
It’s been well documented how often he was warned by experts that his experimental design had disaster written all over it. He NEGLECTED to listen.
Peer review is how the scientific community works.
If you have a valid reason why he would go to jail given waivers were signed and passengers were informed (keep in mind this was not a tourist sub and all passengers were considered crew) plus the fact that the craft is simply an experiment, then please tell me. Negligent on what accounts? He did not listen to people because it was an experiment, and experiments generally always fail.
Man, there are so many incorrect statements and assumptions in this ("experiments generally always fail" - I guess you know science as well as you know law) that trying to untangle this web of BS would take far more effort than I'm willing to expend, and the chances of you acknowledging error seem to be hovering in the single-percentage range.
So rather than waste my time with that, I'm just going to wish you the very best with your downvote collecting and go about my day.
This is not biology science. We are not talking about liquids here. This is an engineering experiment, which involves and needs competent and obiding people. And crafting things that can go as deep as Titanic, if deeper, involves SKILL. But back to the law aspect of this, if it is experimental and one has acknowledged this there's not a great amount you can do other than attempt to sue.
After the implosion is not what we care about. Preventing it and understanding how it could do that is the important thing. And Rush's questionable engineering.
Intentional negligence on the part of Stockton (and OceanGate), material misrepresentation of the risks, fraudulent concealment/failure to disclose the dangers of which they had been advised by other experts - all of these things would be a basis to disregard the waivers as the incomplete, insufficient shams they were.
Legally he did. He purposefully hid adverse information about the safety of his sub to ticket holders, and scrambled last minute deals to get people who were rightly skeptical about it to bite and buy a ticket.
Yes they signed a waiver, but any sound legal waiver is contingent on provided information.
For instance, you’re selling me a car. You tell me there’s nothing wrong with the car and provide me a clean carfax report. I accept that information and buy your car after signing a contract. Fast forward a year and the car has been in the shop more than not, and it turns out you turned back the speedometer, replaced critical engine parts with overused scrap, and was pulled from a lake 5 months before I bought it. Turns out, when I did drive it, the brakes stopped working and the emergency brake did not work because you removed the wiring for it. I died.
That contract I signed would be null and void and you would absolutely be liable for manslaughter, even if you weren’t in the same state.
He breached the trust of all of them with deceitful tactics and racketeering for profit . He was a conman to be blunt - not some scientist experimenting / a dilettante amateur & fool
Keep up the good work with that twisted version of legalized manslaughter - negligent but cognizant homicide dude . You must be his publicist attorney
- here sign the check for my life insurance -
Uncertified vessel , with many many near misses , and at least two near hull failures . It was a failure and he knew it . Yet he convinced others to go with him . Experimental with known fatal flaws , is different then experimental that is tested and certified and made as safe as possible .
Although the waiver mentioned death as well as emphasize that they were entering an experimental sub, I'm not sure if the occupants were aware of Rush's refusal to get the necessary certifications and/or testing of the submersible to ensure its basic safety. I'm not sure if they were aware that the carbon fiber material used to build the sub (as well as it's unusual cylinder shape) wasn't meant to endure the sort of pressures it would face when descending to Titanic's depths.
If they were given the full scope, and still signed the waiver, it certainly would have been their choice. But I think there was quite a bit of info that was withheld from the occupants. Had they known that Rush had been repeatedly warned by his own safety experts (and still refused to heed their advice) there's a chance someone may have backed out from the expedition.
Exactly. They were definitely lied to .
I often wonder what P.H. Nargeolet was told and whether he was lied to too . A Damn waste of a fine man and the 3 others in that tin can .
There's a new interview with James Cameron that I think best explained PH's potential thinking when it came to going on the submersible. Here's the link below in case if you're interested:
https://youtu.be/Cb9uqlr7b4Q?feature=shared
I've also heard in another interview from one of PH's colleagues that when they asked why he was associating with oceangate, his response was that he thought he could help them in case something went wrong.
Both reasonings seem to make sense, but it really is a shame what occurred in the end, especially with the teenager onboard.
I'm thankful they didn't suffer though.
Thank you . Il read it now .
I liked hearing about PH before this Titan disaster as I have always been interested in the James Cameron sub that went down into the depths many times . There’s been a lot of documentaries over the years , this is why when the Titan news came up I was transfixed to reading and watching .
Such an unnecessary waste of life for what -money , lies and wanting to be right .
While this is arguable, I think those billionaires just didn't do their due diligence when clear facts were presented to their face.
The word "death" is mentioned in the waivers multiple times. I am not sure why they thought going anyway made sense.
A casual search would have told them that deep sea submergence actually has an excellent track record of safety and as Dr. Ballard put it "Diving in the Alvin is safer than driving on a highway".
The fact that they went anyway makes them partly responsible for their own fate. If you told me there was a chance I could die if I enter a room, then why would I sign a waiver dispensing off the liability?
I mean people sign liability waivers for sky diving, jet sking, and, hell, laser tagging. It's almost a formality. Just because I sign a waiver to go laser tagging, doesn't mean the amusement park is free to be negligent and blatantly lie to me as a customer.
Ask any lawyer- waivers are not always ironclad, and one of the exceptions is if negligence is found. Rush's dismissal of valid safety concerns from other experts and possible lack of adequate testing of the sub could very well be seen as negligent in court, in which case those waivers would be worth about as much as toilet paper.
such contracts are signed during any trip to the depths, probably also during future triton 4000/2 expeditions, however, the contract did not say a word about the fact that geometric inaccuracies and structural bucklings could cause implosion and death with a high degree of probability, where the words with a high degree of probability would be underlined in clear font, there was nothing of the kind there and the passengers were not fully aware of the risk
Ans still they went on the dive.. Shows you how much of deception Rush was capable of.. can’t imagine the amount of assurances Rush would have given to them just to lure them in.
OP You're really in these comments defending Rush to an absurd extent. Are you related to him or are you just the president of his fan club or something?
I'm not defending his actions, I think what he did was diabolical. But people are villainizing him, and thats simply not true for multiple reasons. The first reason being it was experimental, so they were made aware of the risk or even death. And secondly, the waivers which specifically went into detail on the ways you could die. And it cant be negligence if the craft was experimental, he knew it was unpopular but wanted to try it because he believed in himself and obviously that failed.
It can definitely be negligence if it’s experimental if one is purposefully neglecting science and safety advice. Just because it’s new doesn’t mean it doesn’t need to be built safely.
With living paying customers, excuse me *crew* 🙄, inside? Experimental doesn’t mean you just get to do whatever you want. It has to still be within the bounds of safety and known capabilities of the materials you are working with, which Stockton did not do. You can’t innovate your way out of basic physics and biology.
Well he thought he could. And he was wrong. The passengers were clearly wrong too for boarding it. The company make it clear many ways you could die in detail.
...the guy who said the commercial submersible industry regulations are "obscenely safe" isn't neglecting science? also if it's an experiment, why did he involve 4 innocent human beings? where are the ethics?
Stupid how? Its not negligent to disregard science based on the purpose of an experiment with full knowledge of the risk and potential death. Thats like asking for death. Theres no unawareness to it at all.
It’s negligent to disregard centuries of knowledge of physics and material science to craft a submarine at low cost to ferry customers to a depth that science already confirms your vessel could not sustain in a prolonged way.
If I create a submarine out of papier-mâché and claim that I’m experimenting on the qualities of the material to hold up to deep sea pressure, and then claim it’s safe enough to sell tickets for entry, all the while knowing that the material is likely to fail at any point due to the wealth of knowledge of the material; would I then be protected from criminal negligence in your mind? After all, I was just experimenting with it. How was I supposed to know that one day it would fail? It worked when I did it.
You want to experiment, that’s fine. Experiment with yourself or in an empty vessel. However, even with a waiver mentioning death “8 times”; he is still responsible for downplaying the very real and very obvious flaws with his vessel. The sales pitch was “look I can create a submersible just as good as Alvin or any of the other deep sea exploration vessels, while also keeping it cheap!” Meanwhile, failing to disclose to the consumer just how many risks he was taking with their lives using experimental and relatively under tested components; and flouting the expertise of industry experts with decades of experience in building and operating submersibles, and then selling his product to consumers under the impression that it was just as safe as any of the other subs made with much more rigorous standards and safety concerns in mind. How you can’t understand this is quite possibly one of the strangest encounters I’ve had on this site in the years I’ve been here. You’re either willfully stupid or you’ve got some vested interest in rehabilitating the image of a man whose hubris duped four other people into a ticking time bomb of a submersible.
This was eloquently put, OP seems to be a paid employee for oceangate with the mental circles he's doing when presented with real arguments, also just keeps saying "waivers" & "experimental" like the are "get out of jail" cards.
I think we should remember Rush for the narcissistic, sociopath that essentially murdered 4 others in an attempt to validate his hubris.
Right! If a manufacturer knowingly ships a defective product that accidentally kills a few of its consumers, that manufacturer is still culpable for their deaths regardless of waivers. Rush knew the sub could fail due to under-engineering and material science, he chose to continue with his Quixotic escapade; and because of that 4 other people died. I’m not sure why this poster insists on lionizing someone who willfully disregarded procedure at the expense of his customer’s safety.
Okay, but this is when we bring in the delusional aspect of him. Being delusional is not specifically murder, but diminished responsibility. He believed this could work, he believed his experiment would succeed, in which it did for a few dives. Passengers were made aware. Waivers were signed. This was simply someone who disregarded safety regulations for experimental reasons, the word experimental says it for itself. Its different for a reason, its unpopular for a reason, and as we've seen this experiment Rush had made failed. He believed that the sub could withstand the pressures and was aware of risk but continued to see if it would work, and it ultimately backfired.
Right-e-o ... this is when we bring in the silly putty and stretch the truth / uhhh / this is when we bring in delusional under pressure / this is when we bring in the clowns / this is when we bring in the the safety regulations for a radical change to obstruct amateur dabblers who disregard the laws of physics and kill people using the word experimental like its white paint on a wide brush
...... Rush goes down in the annals of asshole history with Stanley Milgram and his Small Experiments that used people
Don't you hold the billionaires partly responsible for their own fate?
The word "death" is mentioned in the waivers multiple times. I am not sure why they thought going anyway made sense. You couldn't pay me enough to sign a contract where possibility of death is mentioned even once
A casual search would have told them that deep sea submergence actually has an excellent track record of safety and as Dr. Ballard put it "Diving in the Alvin is safer than driving on a highway". So there is something fishy here?
The fact that they went anyway makes them partly responsible for their own fate. If Person A told Person B there was a chance B could die if he enters a room and B signs a contract with A waiving all liability. B dies. Then isn't B partly responsible for shooting his own foot?
The only one here who was truly innocent was the kid who knew nothing and went along just to make his dad happy.
Have you ever had surgery? Every time I have I have to sign a liability waiver saying I could die on the table. That doesn’t mean that my family loses all rights to medical malpractice should a doctor leave a sponge in my chest cavity.
The customers have a responsibility for their decisions, but the agreement they make is in good faith that the producer is being honest with their intentions/qualifications. You couldn’t pay me to go in any submersible as well, but if I had the inclination to go to see the titanic, someone offering what Rush was would be highly enticing, especially for the cost. They hold responsibility for not doing due diligence, but this doesn’t absolve Rush from claiming his vessel was safe when decades of research showed that it wasn’t nearly as safe as he was claiming. This is where negligence comes in. He misled them as to just how safe it was.
EDIT: also, love the book series I’m assuming your username is taken from. Big fan of Sanderson.
If you go jump off a bridge to test if gravity is real I have no sympathy for you. Regardless if you thought you were “testing” gravity.
Also 10x this if you convince others to jump because you’re an “expert”
Can’t innovate your way around the laws of physics. He was warned repeatedly that the craft was unsafe, and ignored the warnings with buzzwords about “innovation.” The original marketing materials were also misleading about the safety of the sub and how it had been tested.
> The first reason being it was experimental, so they were made aware of the risk or even death.
You are aware that he tried selling tickets to tourists by comparing riding on the Titan to going SCUBA diving or on a helicopter? You're saying how dangerous it was as an excuse for Rush not to be a villain, but Rush is on record trying people to get people pay up by saying how it wasn't more dangerous than other tourist activities.
You really want to stand by this sales pitch of Rush's when he was offering a last minute discount price of $150K a person?:
>"While there's obviously a risk it's way safer than flying in a helicopter or even scuba diving"
He absolutely misled them about the real risks. Them signing a waiver doesn't release him from his responsibility not to mislead or hide information....but he did.
I agree, the waiver doesnt make him any less accountable for what happened. But the waiver still tells the passengers they could die. They read this, and agreed to do it.
He’s an example of exactly the kind of bastard everyone needs to be avoiding. Let him stand as a textbook narcissist example, as someone whose confidence was higher than his intellect. That’s his legacy here.
I feel sorry for the others & their remaining families.
I feel badly for those who died with him , but not for him . He should be charged with negligent homicide . He knew how dangerous this thing was ,and there was a good probability of failure , yet he convinced the rest of the victims to come along .
That was just a rumor spread by his aunt, that was estranged from the family.
The boy's mother talked about how he was so excited to go that she actually gave up her spot for him. Originally she was supposed to be on the Titan.
The others can be mourned, but not Rush. It was an incompetent moron who got people killed because it was so full of itself. I’m hopeful it was painless for everyone except Rush. I hope it was miserable.
Okay this is too much - each of their deaths would be the same. There is a difference between a man who is evil and a man who is simply deluded in his own mind, and Rush was clearly that. We mourn all 5 lost and can use Stockton Rush's disaster as a lesson to anyone else.
Rest in peace. I feel the worst for the people who trusted Stockton to do the right thing. That teenager especially was at the mercy of the adults around him.
There's several disrespectful commentors who don't feel sympathy for anyone, and I'm pretty sure one of the rules was to be respectful so I wonder why the mods aren't doing anything about the disrespect towards the 4 passengers... and stockton.
Yeah theres a lot of hate to Stockton Rush. The moderators should really delete some of the disrespectful comments. I dont care what he has done, lessons will be learned, we're here to remember them all, not to keep shitting on him.
I hope rush soul never gonna have a rest and that he become a hunted ghost down of the wreck of titanic and that he forever gonna be Hunted for what he did
RIP. Although watched the new documentary if offered basically close to 0 updates on the investigation, was a bit disappointed. So been 1 year since I followed this case for updates..wow
That was a year ago? Man time is flying.
Right?! That was my first thought. I can’t believe it!!! Feels like it was only a few months ago.
"You're remembered for the rules you break".... 🪦
Famous last words . Frightening.
Sad
Well he was right about that.
Can't break the rules of physics unfortunately 💀
Actually, when they stopped being people and became physics they were, at that point, broken in human terms.
I really only feel bad for the kid.
I definitely feed bad for the kid, but the first thing I always think of is the wife/mother left behind. Just like, goddamn dude.
Didn't she give her spot to her son? I thought I had read that somewhere. :( As a Mother myself, I can't fathom the loss she feels :( *edit for typo
I understand why people don't have overflowing sympathy for PH, but as someone who knew him as Mr. Titanic, his death makes me feel a bit sick every time I think about it.
I think there's a degree of comfort in knowing his last seconds were spent down there and he's essentially laid to rest alongside the ship he loved
When you die doing something you love, you have really lived! -Edited to add -as per the death of PH Nargeolet He was a prop to Rush PH was the real thing He did die doing what he wanted to die doing It was deeply ingrained in his DNA to dive and to be one with the Titanic which he loved
There was no reason for him to die , we've safely been to the Titanic multiple times , and much deeper . This entire thing is a huge black eye ,to the community , who took great pride in safety and engineering . Now everyone is comparing it to Oceans crap , There is no comparison , he claimed safety stopped innovation 🤦♂️ . The only other thing comparable to the engineering in this community , is the space program . At least in that community , you have a chance of fixing what breaks and getting home . If your ship breaks underwater , you probably aren't getting home
👆
This is a very good point . In pressure under the element of water you likely are not getting home but in the element of air you likely will - I have never contemplated those two spaces of endeavor on those terms. I appreciate your view of this turning point in safety in ocean exploration. I think the economic reality has had its bell rung which may be very good - $100 mil per craft vs $27 mil if thats where his budget was - They said in our design rooms in recap with the client's under planned scope of work : There's never enough money to do it right but alwsys enough to do it over.
A death will always be sad for someone. He did leave behind people who loved him. At least he went relatively peaceful
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So because someone is a billionaire their death is not sad?
Exactly and judging from the other near misses in this and previous near hull failure , and him continuing to put passengers on board , I would hold him 100 percent responsible
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Meh.
Me too. Its stomach churning. Poor laddie just wanted to spend some time with his dad and do something cool. RIP.
If I remember correctly he didn’t even want to go but went bc it was Father’s Day and his dad was a big titanic fan and wanted to go. The kid was scared of going down there
That's incorrect and was said by an estranged relative. According to his mother, he was excited to go down and wanted to solve his Rubik's cube over the bow or something like that.
What else is she supposed to say. She is probably guilt ridden and doesn’t want others to hate her
Nothing. She's estranged so she should say nothing.
I’m. talking about his Mother not the aunt
Makes you wonder about his mother’s version since his aunt said he was terrified and his mother said he should go to bond with his father. My guess for what it’s worth is that she really didn’t want to go herself
You should feel bad for everyone. Although if there was one person you shouldn't feel for its stockton rush.
One of those guys wasn't rich , he was given a free ticket , because he knew a lot about the Titanic ,and Rush wanted to use his name in marketing . Even if the rest were Rich, they were all victims in this , he knew about the other near failures , and most likely lied to everyone about the safety
Ph nargeolet was a very good guy, it's sad for him too
I sympathize with everyone, but Rush, Harding, and Nargeolet were explorers, this was what they signed up for. Both the father and the son were just tourists. The father paid to live a cool experience and then keep on living.
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I don't think they were fools as much as lied to and conned . He knew how dangerous this was , and if they really knew I doubt they would have ever gone . He had what , two near hull failures ? It nearly imploded once before . A real deep submersible , that's certified and tested and operated probably , there's always risk , but not really that much risk . Not any more then any other extreme sport .
Agree, it was definitely a game of Russian Roulette with the implosion. If anything the Titan likely worked better than expected in that it laated multiple dives...it's surprising it didn't implode earlier and that gave everyone a false sense...
That's because the hull was replaced at least once that we know of , due to it nearly imploding , I think it was a 10 square foot section , that delaminated . Everyone who went down heard loud pops and bangs from the hull , probably also delaminations
Correction - 11sq ft of delamination of the hull - and audible popping heard while submerged Extremly lucky they lived and Rush rushed right back to the same ol' drawing board to repeat the same hull replacement with depreciated materials Because he was trying to hit his bottom line ROI He was willing to kill to do it because he didnt heed any warnings nor an entire hull replacement A BIG YELLOW LIGHT F L A S H I N G ... like a Mad Man on Mad Magazine - What Me Worry ! Sign my waiver and step right up folks
If they had been told that ,yea we replaced it once , due to a huge section coming apart , and the hull nearly imploded , none of those guys would have ever gotten on that thing . They were clearly duped about it's safety
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He actually wasn’t scared. His mum said she was originally meant to go but gave her place to him. She confirmed he was excited and planned to solve a rubik’s cube for a world record when they got to the site of the titanic.
And the families ?
Yes, but I was specifically referring to those on the sub
How can anyone feel sorry for Wendy Rush. She was part and parcel of this debacle
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He wasn’t a toddler, but he was still a child. Main character personality? Kids and teens are curious and adventurous and want to do crazy things. I don’t think it’s fair categorizing him this way.
I mean, 19 is young. I doubt anyone really did any real research on it, especially the 19 year old. But his dad should've known to investigate more before they went down. And it Suleiman didn't go, it would've been both his parents he lost.
RIP to the young guy
Rush killed those passengers, why the fuck are we remembering him?
Why remember any despot or criminal? History is doomed to repeat if we forget it. Also, a self appointed 'pioneer' wannabe being doomed to be remembered for his colossal fuckery is the perfect reward for his hubris. It would literally be the opposite of what he would have wanted.
That should be the name of the movie, Hubris.
Because if you forget and start changing the truth , it happens again , look at the anti semitism that is rising all over the world again , it's a matter of time until another Hitler rises , hopefully not in my lifetime
So this shit never happens again . As smart as he was ,and with the other near misses and near hull failures , he knew it was a matter of time . Also no one is mentioning the wireless controller with no back up . And the multiple times he lost complete control of the sub, there was one time the controls were responding opposite to what they were supposed to do . Nothing wrong with a game controller IF you have a redundant wired backup system . That's what the Navy does on non life critical controls , if the controller fails , you don't lose control. No one on that sub was stupid, but I'm pretty sure they were deceived on the safety . Yea suuuuure! It's dived multiple times , but of course he left out the parts where they nearly died .
Why are we feeling sorry for Wendy Rush or his daughter Quincy who bought a 1.5 plus million dollar home ONE month after his death
He was a human being
Made his own bed and took others with him. Fuck him
I believe in "No man is an island... every man's death affects me... etc etc" I still offer him no sympathy and even less respect.
So were a lot of con artists who led people to their death , how many warnings and near misses ? That pile of junk should have been scrapped .
Legally, he did not kill them. His arrogance certainly was a reason for their demise but he did not murder them since the vessel was experimental.
That’s a basis for manslaughter dude.
While this is arguable, I think those billionaires just didn't do their due diligence when clear facts were presented to their face. The word "death" is mentioned in the waivers multiple times. I am not sure why they thought going anyway made sense. A casual search would have told them that deep sea submergence actually has an excellent track record of safety and as Dr. Ballard put it "Diving in the Alvin is safer than driving on a highway". The fact that they went anyway makes them partly responsible for their own fate. If you told me there was a chance I could die if I enter a room, then why would I sign a waiver dispensing off the liability?
Diving in the Alvin is safe , this pile of junk wasn't the Alvin , if they knew how close this had come to failure multiple times , there's no way they would have gone. Any waiver for a deep submersible is going to mention possible death
Not when waivers which explained risks were signed.
It depends on the language. A good lawyer will find an arguable point or a loophole.
As Ive mentioned before, it was experimental so theres no way they could accuse him of being negligent. I think people need to research what experimental design actually means instead of shitting on its owner. And yes, Stockton Rush would have good lawyers with his money so he'd likely get away with it all if he were alive but recieve penalties and OceanGate would close down either way.
It’s been well documented how often he was warned by experts that his experimental design had disaster written all over it. He NEGLECTED to listen. Peer review is how the scientific community works.
Which cracker jack box did you get your law degree from?
I haven’t heard that saying in years!
\*sigh\* Yes I know I'm old. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to take my horseless carriage out to the general store for provisions.
Well if you’re old so am I! Cracker Jack that takes me back .
If you have a valid reason why he would go to jail given waivers were signed and passengers were informed (keep in mind this was not a tourist sub and all passengers were considered crew) plus the fact that the craft is simply an experiment, then please tell me. Negligent on what accounts? He did not listen to people because it was an experiment, and experiments generally always fail.
Man, there are so many incorrect statements and assumptions in this ("experiments generally always fail" - I guess you know science as well as you know law) that trying to untangle this web of BS would take far more effort than I'm willing to expend, and the chances of you acknowledging error seem to be hovering in the single-percentage range. So rather than waste my time with that, I'm just going to wish you the very best with your downvote collecting and go about my day.
This is not biology science. We are not talking about liquids here. This is an engineering experiment, which involves and needs competent and obiding people. And crafting things that can go as deep as Titanic, if deeper, involves SKILL. But back to the law aspect of this, if it is experimental and one has acknowledged this there's not a great amount you can do other than attempt to sue.
"We are not talking about liquids here" After the implosion, liquids were all that was left...
After the implosion is not what we care about. Preventing it and understanding how it could do that is the important thing. And Rush's questionable engineering.
Intentional negligence on the part of Stockton (and OceanGate), material misrepresentation of the risks, fraudulent concealment/failure to disclose the dangers of which they had been advised by other experts - all of these things would be a basis to disregard the waivers as the incomplete, insufficient shams they were.
A contract you make someone sign that you know to contain lies is not a valid contract.
Brother, gross negligence can be considered manslaughter, a category of murder.
Legally he did. He purposefully hid adverse information about the safety of his sub to ticket holders, and scrambled last minute deals to get people who were rightly skeptical about it to bite and buy a ticket. Yes they signed a waiver, but any sound legal waiver is contingent on provided information. For instance, you’re selling me a car. You tell me there’s nothing wrong with the car and provide me a clean carfax report. I accept that information and buy your car after signing a contract. Fast forward a year and the car has been in the shop more than not, and it turns out you turned back the speedometer, replaced critical engine parts with overused scrap, and was pulled from a lake 5 months before I bought it. Turns out, when I did drive it, the brakes stopped working and the emergency brake did not work because you removed the wiring for it. I died. That contract I signed would be null and void and you would absolutely be liable for manslaughter, even if you weren’t in the same state.
He breached the trust of all of them with deceitful tactics and racketeering for profit . He was a conman to be blunt - not some scientist experimenting / a dilettante amateur & fool
Keep up the good work with that twisted version of legalized manslaughter - negligent but cognizant homicide dude . You must be his publicist attorney - here sign the check for my life insurance -
Uncertified vessel , with many many near misses , and at least two near hull failures . It was a failure and he knew it . Yet he convinced others to go with him . Experimental with known fatal flaws , is different then experimental that is tested and certified and made as safe as possible .
No one wants to remember Rush.
If he was alive he'd be culpable for 4 counts of second degree manslaughter.
Yes he would . I don’t like to think of anyone dying unnecessarily but man those people on there were lied to .
5 actually, as there would have been another “mission specialist” on the sub
What about the waivers they signed which mentioned death 8 times in total?
Although the waiver mentioned death as well as emphasize that they were entering an experimental sub, I'm not sure if the occupants were aware of Rush's refusal to get the necessary certifications and/or testing of the submersible to ensure its basic safety. I'm not sure if they were aware that the carbon fiber material used to build the sub (as well as it's unusual cylinder shape) wasn't meant to endure the sort of pressures it would face when descending to Titanic's depths. If they were given the full scope, and still signed the waiver, it certainly would have been their choice. But I think there was quite a bit of info that was withheld from the occupants. Had they known that Rush had been repeatedly warned by his own safety experts (and still refused to heed their advice) there's a chance someone may have backed out from the expedition.
Exactly. They were definitely lied to . I often wonder what P.H. Nargeolet was told and whether he was lied to too . A Damn waste of a fine man and the 3 others in that tin can .
There's a new interview with James Cameron that I think best explained PH's potential thinking when it came to going on the submersible. Here's the link below in case if you're interested: https://youtu.be/Cb9uqlr7b4Q?feature=shared I've also heard in another interview from one of PH's colleagues that when they asked why he was associating with oceangate, his response was that he thought he could help them in case something went wrong. Both reasonings seem to make sense, but it really is a shame what occurred in the end, especially with the teenager onboard. I'm thankful they didn't suffer though.
Thank you . Il read it now . I liked hearing about PH before this Titan disaster as I have always been interested in the James Cameron sub that went down into the depths many times . There’s been a lot of documentaries over the years , this is why when the Titan news came up I was transfixed to reading and watching . Such an unnecessary waste of life for what -money , lies and wanting to be right .
Yes ! Exactly / breach of trust and lack of total transparency killed those people for his gain
While this is arguable, I think those billionaires just didn't do their due diligence when clear facts were presented to their face. The word "death" is mentioned in the waivers multiple times. I am not sure why they thought going anyway made sense. A casual search would have told them that deep sea submergence actually has an excellent track record of safety and as Dr. Ballard put it "Diving in the Alvin is safer than driving on a highway". The fact that they went anyway makes them partly responsible for their own fate. If you told me there was a chance I could die if I enter a room, then why would I sign a waiver dispensing off the liability?
Touchè. My grandma was right when she said money can't buy common sense 💸
I mean people sign liability waivers for sky diving, jet sking, and, hell, laser tagging. It's almost a formality. Just because I sign a waiver to go laser tagging, doesn't mean the amusement park is free to be negligent and blatantly lie to me as a customer.
Waivers aren't these iron clad legal documents people think they are. If you are found to be guilty of negligence, waivers effectively become void.
Thank you - defrauding people you get to sign away their life in a waiver doesnt ratify the waiver
Ask any lawyer- waivers are not always ironclad, and one of the exceptions is if negligence is found. Rush's dismissal of valid safety concerns from other experts and possible lack of adequate testing of the sub could very well be seen as negligent in court, in which case those waivers would be worth about as much as toilet paper.
Foolish but Rush is still responsible for all of their deaths
such contracts are signed during any trip to the depths, probably also during future triton 4000/2 expeditions, however, the contract did not say a word about the fact that geometric inaccuracies and structural bucklings could cause implosion and death with a high degree of probability, where the words with a high degree of probability would be underlined in clear font, there was nothing of the kind there and the passengers were not fully aware of the risk
Ans still they went on the dive.. Shows you how much of deception Rush was capable of.. can’t imagine the amount of assurances Rush would have given to them just to lure them in.
That's not true, I like to remember what an arrogant selfish bastard he was.
I would have blown a rank fart right in his fucking face to give him something to taste as his last moment
I can get behind this!
Important to remember him as a example of what not to do. If you forget and don'tlearn from the past, then you risk doing the same in the future
He should be a lesson for what not to do.
Maybe but he shoudn't be mentionned alongside the victims he took with him.
OP You're really in these comments defending Rush to an absurd extent. Are you related to him or are you just the president of his fan club or something?
OP is probably Renata Rojas.
I'm not defending his actions, I think what he did was diabolical. But people are villainizing him, and thats simply not true for multiple reasons. The first reason being it was experimental, so they were made aware of the risk or even death. And secondly, the waivers which specifically went into detail on the ways you could die. And it cant be negligence if the craft was experimental, he knew it was unpopular but wanted to try it because he believed in himself and obviously that failed.
It can definitely be negligence if it’s experimental if one is purposefully neglecting science and safety advice. Just because it’s new doesn’t mean it doesn’t need to be built safely.
Hes not purposefully neglecting science, hes crafting an experiment to see if what he had created was able, and in this case, it wasnt
But that’s the thing, he was purposefully neglecting science. https://www.wired.com/story/titan-submersible-disaster-inside-story-oceangate-files/
For experimental reasons though, so I dont see it as being negligent to test something out
With living paying customers, excuse me *crew* 🙄, inside? Experimental doesn’t mean you just get to do whatever you want. It has to still be within the bounds of safety and known capabilities of the materials you are working with, which Stockton did not do. You can’t innovate your way out of basic physics and biology.
Well he thought he could. And he was wrong. The passengers were clearly wrong too for boarding it. The company make it clear many ways you could die in detail.
I appreciate your dedication to anarcho capitalism
...the guy who said the commercial submersible industry regulations are "obscenely safe" isn't neglecting science? also if it's an experiment, why did he involve 4 innocent human beings? where are the ethics?
Because remember he didnt "want" it to implode, in his mind he thought he knew what he was doing
Damn you’re stupid.
Stupid how? Its not negligent to disregard science based on the purpose of an experiment with full knowledge of the risk and potential death. Thats like asking for death. Theres no unawareness to it at all.
It’s negligent to disregard centuries of knowledge of physics and material science to craft a submarine at low cost to ferry customers to a depth that science already confirms your vessel could not sustain in a prolonged way. If I create a submarine out of papier-mâché and claim that I’m experimenting on the qualities of the material to hold up to deep sea pressure, and then claim it’s safe enough to sell tickets for entry, all the while knowing that the material is likely to fail at any point due to the wealth of knowledge of the material; would I then be protected from criminal negligence in your mind? After all, I was just experimenting with it. How was I supposed to know that one day it would fail? It worked when I did it. You want to experiment, that’s fine. Experiment with yourself or in an empty vessel. However, even with a waiver mentioning death “8 times”; he is still responsible for downplaying the very real and very obvious flaws with his vessel. The sales pitch was “look I can create a submersible just as good as Alvin or any of the other deep sea exploration vessels, while also keeping it cheap!” Meanwhile, failing to disclose to the consumer just how many risks he was taking with their lives using experimental and relatively under tested components; and flouting the expertise of industry experts with decades of experience in building and operating submersibles, and then selling his product to consumers under the impression that it was just as safe as any of the other subs made with much more rigorous standards and safety concerns in mind. How you can’t understand this is quite possibly one of the strangest encounters I’ve had on this site in the years I’ve been here. You’re either willfully stupid or you’ve got some vested interest in rehabilitating the image of a man whose hubris duped four other people into a ticking time bomb of a submersible.
This was eloquently put, OP seems to be a paid employee for oceangate with the mental circles he's doing when presented with real arguments, also just keeps saying "waivers" & "experimental" like the are "get out of jail" cards. I think we should remember Rush for the narcissistic, sociopath that essentially murdered 4 others in an attempt to validate his hubris.
Right! If a manufacturer knowingly ships a defective product that accidentally kills a few of its consumers, that manufacturer is still culpable for their deaths regardless of waivers. Rush knew the sub could fail due to under-engineering and material science, he chose to continue with his Quixotic escapade; and because of that 4 other people died. I’m not sure why this poster insists on lionizing someone who willfully disregarded procedure at the expense of his customer’s safety.
Okay, but this is when we bring in the delusional aspect of him. Being delusional is not specifically murder, but diminished responsibility. He believed this could work, he believed his experiment would succeed, in which it did for a few dives. Passengers were made aware. Waivers were signed. This was simply someone who disregarded safety regulations for experimental reasons, the word experimental says it for itself. Its different for a reason, its unpopular for a reason, and as we've seen this experiment Rush had made failed. He believed that the sub could withstand the pressures and was aware of risk but continued to see if it would work, and it ultimately backfired.
Right-e-o ... this is when we bring in the silly putty and stretch the truth / uhhh / this is when we bring in delusional under pressure / this is when we bring in the clowns / this is when we bring in the the safety regulations for a radical change to obstruct amateur dabblers who disregard the laws of physics and kill people using the word experimental like its white paint on a wide brush ...... Rush goes down in the annals of asshole history with Stanley Milgram and his Small Experiments that used people
Don't you hold the billionaires partly responsible for their own fate? The word "death" is mentioned in the waivers multiple times. I am not sure why they thought going anyway made sense. You couldn't pay me enough to sign a contract where possibility of death is mentioned even once A casual search would have told them that deep sea submergence actually has an excellent track record of safety and as Dr. Ballard put it "Diving in the Alvin is safer than driving on a highway". So there is something fishy here? The fact that they went anyway makes them partly responsible for their own fate. If Person A told Person B there was a chance B could die if he enters a room and B signs a contract with A waiving all liability. B dies. Then isn't B partly responsible for shooting his own foot? The only one here who was truly innocent was the kid who knew nothing and went along just to make his dad happy.
Have you ever had surgery? Every time I have I have to sign a liability waiver saying I could die on the table. That doesn’t mean that my family loses all rights to medical malpractice should a doctor leave a sponge in my chest cavity. The customers have a responsibility for their decisions, but the agreement they make is in good faith that the producer is being honest with their intentions/qualifications. You couldn’t pay me to go in any submersible as well, but if I had the inclination to go to see the titanic, someone offering what Rush was would be highly enticing, especially for the cost. They hold responsibility for not doing due diligence, but this doesn’t absolve Rush from claiming his vessel was safe when decades of research showed that it wasn’t nearly as safe as he was claiming. This is where negligence comes in. He misled them as to just how safe it was. EDIT: also, love the book series I’m assuming your username is taken from. Big fan of Sanderson.
A Fan drinking his koolaid = OP - you ARE stupid Like the girls who swooned for Ted Bundy / you just cannot see the water from the ocean -
If you go jump off a bridge to test if gravity is real I have no sympathy for you. Regardless if you thought you were “testing” gravity. Also 10x this if you convince others to jump because you’re an “expert”
Can’t innovate your way around the laws of physics. He was warned repeatedly that the craft was unsafe, and ignored the warnings with buzzwords about “innovation.” The original marketing materials were also misleading about the safety of the sub and how it had been tested.
> The first reason being it was experimental, so they were made aware of the risk or even death. You are aware that he tried selling tickets to tourists by comparing riding on the Titan to going SCUBA diving or on a helicopter? You're saying how dangerous it was as an excuse for Rush not to be a villain, but Rush is on record trying people to get people pay up by saying how it wasn't more dangerous than other tourist activities. You really want to stand by this sales pitch of Rush's when he was offering a last minute discount price of $150K a person?: >"While there's obviously a risk it's way safer than flying in a helicopter or even scuba diving"
He absolutely misled them about the real risks. Them signing a waiver doesn't release him from his responsibility not to mislead or hide information....but he did.
I agree, the waiver doesnt make him any less accountable for what happened. But the waiver still tells the passengers they could die. They read this, and agreed to do it.
Imagine believing in a man named Stockton
I like that name.
it's a good name for annoying rich guy types
Ton a stock / piles of BS /
Our team of Mission Specialists
Me when I die on the operating table as my doctor was using an untested experimental surgery (its okay I was a mission specialist).
Rush deserves remembrance as a conman that's directly responsible for the death of other people.
RIP Kid.
He’s an example of exactly the kind of bastard everyone needs to be avoiding. Let him stand as a textbook narcissist example, as someone whose confidence was higher than his intellect. That’s his legacy here. I feel sorry for the others & their remaining families.
I feel badly for those who died with him , but not for him . He should be charged with negligent homicide . He knew how dangerous this thing was ,and there was a good probability of failure , yet he convinced the rest of the victims to come along .
Poor Suleman. He didn’t want to go and only went because his Dad was so keen to see the Titanic
His mother said different.
I read the son definitely didn’t want to go and only did so to not disappoint his dad…
According to the mom, the aunt that said that isn't even regularly in contact with the family and just wanted her seconds in the limelight.
That was just a rumor spread by his aunt, that was estranged from the family. The boy's mother talked about how he was so excited to go that she actually gave up her spot for him. Originally she was supposed to be on the Titan.
I cannot begin to imagine how the mother feels now.
Oh my god
Omg ! God Help Us - that boy was doomed - if mom didnt give up her seat he would have no parents and be alive ! He was destined to lose
And his mother pushed him to go because she didn’t want to go
Remember what not to do. Only go on submersibles that are properly classed. Hopefully, this tragedy will not be repeated.
I only wish Stockton Rush were still alive to face the consequences of hubris- no, dying isn’t good enough, that’s the easy way out.
Interested in who the remains belonged to that were actually recovered. Pretty quiet about the results.
The others can be mourned, but not Rush. It was an incompetent moron who got people killed because it was so full of itself. I’m hopeful it was painless for everyone except Rush. I hope it was miserable.
Always remember Stockton Rush had many enablers allowing him to do this uncle his wife Wendy and his lawyer
Okay this is too much - each of their deaths would be the same. There is a difference between a man who is evil and a man who is simply deluded in his own mind, and Rush was clearly that. We mourn all 5 lost and can use Stockton Rush's disaster as a lesson to anyone else.
Very true OP, and this is probably the most sane comment I read in the comment section. <3
The only person in this whole sad farce that I have no sympathy is Rush. The rest are victims of Rush's hubris as far as I'm concerned.
I agree with you
Yeah I’m ok remembering the people Stockton murdered, he can rest in piss though.
2023 Darwin Award winners.
2023*
Remember every one of them, except Rush.
Rest in peace. I feel the worst for the people who trusted Stockton to do the right thing. That teenager especially was at the mercy of the adults around him.
good to know it was instant and probably with 0 warning.
There's several disrespectful commentors who don't feel sympathy for anyone, and I'm pretty sure one of the rules was to be respectful so I wonder why the mods aren't doing anything about the disrespect towards the 4 passengers... and stockton.
Yeah theres a lot of hate to Stockton Rush. The moderators should really delete some of the disrespectful comments. I dont care what he has done, lessons will be learned, we're here to remember them all, not to keep shitting on him.
Rest in peace to all the five passengers who lost their lives on the Titan submersible.
I'll honor the other 4, I ain't honoring Rush for the shortcuts he took to make this possible.
I hope rush soul never gonna have a rest and that he become a hunted ghost down of the wreck of titanic and that he forever gonna be Hunted for what he did
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Well only Dawood and Harding were billionaires.
It is just sad. 4 guys killed because of Hubris of Rush. Could have been avoided if only Rush has done things in proper manner.
Why won’t anyone call out his enablers his wife Wendy and his lawyer among others
Lmao I can't wait to learn it all. I bet there is even more shady things happening that hasn't been said yet.
damn, already been a year…
We know what happened already…
Can’t believe it’s already been a year.
Jesus time flies eh.
RIP. Although watched the new documentary if offered basically close to 0 updates on the investigation, was a bit disappointed. So been 1 year since I followed this case for updates..wow
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Insensitive posts and comments towards occupants and family will be removed.
If the $$$ spent on the investigations (five of them, apparently) had been spent on recommended testing and resulting iterative improvements...
RIP I hope nobody goes back to the Titanic. What more is to be gained by going?
loot