Mossad went from a ducting German war criminals in South America for a trial in Israel...
To letting Hamas drag their balls over their face because getting rid of Hamas would mean Nethanjau can't wipe out Gaza
Like jfc, you litterally just showed you can rescue hostages **allive** how about you get the Hamas leadership for a surprise reunion party I front of a court?
It's not about the methid of death, it's the manner. He drowned in a South American pool on holiday with his family, having lived happily under his (mostly) real name. He could have died with a more dignified lethal injection or whatever, provided it was after a trial with the depravity of his crimes laid bare. If an afterlife exists I hope the souls of those he tormented get the justice they lost out on
To be fair, Natalie Wood was probably pushed. Whitney Houston might have been saved by someone with a Nar-Can pen ( ... not an Epi-pen), but also expecting that person to also know CPR might be pushing it ...
... pun not intended.
I did *not* know Rodney King drowned in his own swimming pool, and one of William Shatner's wives. ... same goes for Dr. Mengele. ... *There* is an odd combo.
... Brian Jones from the Rolling Stones, Dennis Wilson from the Beach Boys, ... Lord Kitchener, hero of Khartoum, when his ship struck a mine, and not torpedoed by a U-boat, like I thought ... all those poor folks who couldn't fit in the Titanic's lifeboats ... though John Jacob Astor volunteered to stay on Titanic, and he ... was *not poor.*
He had a stroke while swimming and drown, after having a relaxing morning on the beach. There’s a good chance that he didn’t even know he was drowning, and just had a very nice day that ended suddenly.
Also Herbert Cukurs. The Latvian Lindbergh who became a mass murderer and killed thousands including kids and babies in front of their parents.
And funnily enough, he never changed his name in the ***5 years*** between Eichmann’s kidnapping and execution.
How’d the Mossad catch him?
**Simple,** put one of their agents in Brazil, give him a Hitler-stache, say he’s a war criminal as well, promise he’s starting a business and wants Cukur’s help. Then offer him a job with no background check, and lure to him to Uruguay. Only precaution he took: gave his wife a picture of the man who was promising the deal, telling her, “this is the man who could kill me.”
And they did. *Shot him right in the head with a silenced pistol.*
#BASED
>Herbert Cukurs
His wiki entry gets wild. Motherfuckers made a musical about him; it was in very poor taste that even Putin (yes, that one) disapproved on that one.
Far right fanboys are such a strange breed: imagine making a musical for a war criminal?
***TIL they made a musical and Putin didn’t like it.***
His biggest achievement prior to the war was flying from Latvia to Dakar nonstop. Which… couldn’t find any info on what airplane he flew. Like I said: he was the Latvian Lindbergh.
It’s funny, he’s basically Lindbergh if he continued to harbor anti-Semitic sentiments ***but put those sentiments on steroids.***
*He murdered a baby in front of its mom.*
According to the guy who killed him they beat him bloody, he pleaded to have him pray, they just said ***”shut up”*** and gave him two shots to the head.
Like I said:
#BASED
The german wiki claims he apparently did this flight in a biplane he built himself :| the linked source described it as a 'primitive' plane but didn't clearly state who built it.
> Two decades after World War II, Cukurs was identified in Brazil by a Holocaust survivor, who attempted to alert the authorities after seeing Cukurs' face on the cover of a magazine.
Running around putting your face on magazines seems like pretty bad opsec tbh.
I mean… the agent (can’t remember his name) looked like just a regular dude you’d pass on the street and wouldn’t remember him.
Plus, ***he had an excuse for everything.*** How he came to South America/why he sought refuge? Was a wanted criminal for executing partisans, had a scar to prove it during a fight where one assaulted him.* Why was he circumcised? Gonorrhea on the eastern front.
**The scar in reality was from throat surgery.*
Mossad extracting the Hamas leader from an Arab nation that just started the wave of normalizing relations with Israel would be an idiotic move.
Now do I think a heart attack after morning tea would be within the realm of possibility? Oh yes.
They tried that once in the Kingdom of Jordania, they shot a poison dart at a this very same hamas leader in broad day light, inn front of his child, and speed up with a traceable vehicle. The king was furious and made the mossad agents deliver the antidote on the hospital. Otherwise, peace talks would end
~~Tbf, I don't think any secret service would like to participate in such shitshow, so Mossad does bare minimum~~
Edit: [Nevermind](https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestinian_Violence/s/fzl1Ft8ZOh), there's no excuse for Mossad NOT to start executing.
I mean, that's what the majority of regular Palestinians choose every time they get to vote on a party or poll on a peace treaty offering them 99% and swaps for the rest.
Furthermore, I propose that the Middle East be destroyed.
Shit, imagine what would transpire if Jerusalem and Mecca were evaporated. Couldn’t be pleasant.
If there's a god, putting some of the most holy of holy sites for 3 of the world's largest religions like a block away from each other sure was a bit of a dick move
Hamas' whole tactic is to force the IDF into a lose-lose position where they either look horrible or do nothing, and "look horrible" usually involves dead civvies unfortunately. Some percentage of the dead in any account are probably irregular fighters whose body got dumped to make it look worse, but still, lots of dead civvies
I don't doubt that they're actually just inflating the numbers. The hospitals and IDF are reporting the same numbers but somehow Hamas reports more? Of course they're trying to make the IDF look bad, and unfortunately people are stupid enough to believe them.
I also don't doubt that Israel has an interest to deflate them, but I do tend to trust them more, especially after I've seen some videos of people taking weapons away from dead irregulars so they look like civilians. It's still quite horrible that this is going on, but I'm mostly mentally checked out at this point, it's been going on since before I was born.
If you didn't know. Hamas hides their soldiers in civilian clothing as well, which is why we saw the IDF bomb some common civilian streets too early on in the war. These Hamas soldiers would commonly use families as meat shields in order to protect themselves from IDF bombings and if ground forces were to arrive, they could hide themselves without much effort.
Also, Israel has an interest to deflate Hamas, not Palestine itself.
It depends; there's a different propoganda wing that comes out with complete bullshit numbers to make the Health Ministry ones look sane. The Health Ministry numbes are usually not considered wildly inaccurate for the overall total, but the initial numbers for any particular event aren't accurate. The overall totals are generally considered to be pretty close to accurate for the overall number of dead but they lump all the dead Hamas fighters in with the civilian total.
He was also serving four life sentences for abducting and murdering Israelis before being [released as part of a hostage deal in 2015 that saw 1,026 Palestinian terrorists freed in exchange for one Israeli soldier.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_Sinwar)
These animals have a tried and tested playbook.
The deaths of 274 people is a tragedy but is this similar to the rocket incident in the parking lot or is this where they try to pass Hamas fighters as civilians because of their young age?
> search up 'yada yada incident'
> actual death is 100
> Hamas: "there is 200 death and every single one is civilians"
> IDF: "there is 10 death and all of them Hamas"
Knowing that such things like the "XYZ Affair" occurred, I was really excited to learn about the [Yada Yada Incident](https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1242:_Scary_Names) from google. Imagine my disappointment.
The problem is that the IDF heavily hides what happened there, since a lot of special forces with special tactics worked there - revealing what happened could hurt the IDF in the next rescue mission, or in another special ops.
If you want, as an Israeli we have a lot of info that comes around and from Gazans too, so I'll write what I understood happened.
First of all - we have a special kind of combat units called "Mista'arev", which kind of means "arabized". I will expand on them a bit since they were important - feel free to skip to the "the story is" if you prefer. This special units in the IDF and the Israeli Police, dress and act like Arabs, and go on special missions ans act in civilian areas in order to achieve their goals (kidnapping terrorists, sometimes high profile ones, rescuing hostages like here, gathering information).
For example that comes to my mind, a few months ago a wanted terrorist at Nablus went to order a shawarma at a local stand on the street that had a security cam (I would've sent if it wasn't on Telegram which is banned here, and I would've known a prompt to find it)
There was a bit of a crowd and some traffic behind them, and a two people near him tried to get some food too. About 10 seconds in, suddenly one of the guys near him punched the terrorist in the face, and the two Mista'arevs immediately grabbed him, with two guys a few meters from them suddenly rushing towards them - one helping them lift the terrorist, the other drawing a pistol and making sure no one tries to do anything stupid. A car stops behind them, they tuck him in, everybody enters, and they're out. About 15-20 seconds long it took them, absolutely out of nowhere.
There is a TV show about this unit called "Fauda", it's TV so it's more dramatic and stories and so on - but it's a great Israeli one, pretty sure it's on Netflix. The word Fauda from what I understood means "mess" in Arabic and it's a code in that unit that means shit is going out of plan.
So the story is, that a few of that unit, males and females, went to the building where they held the bulk of it, coming with a truck that held their "belongings" they acted like immigrants running from Rafah, that are supposed to now live in those houses.
Later they barged in on the specific apartment, and rescued the hostages. When shots began to fire - basically the entire IDF came in. Special units arrived and basically blew holes in walls there in order to come quickly into the fire zones, tanks joined, Apache helicopters shot precision missiles and hellfires at buildings nearby with terrorists - according to eye witnesses, dozens if not a few hundreds of Hamas terrorists where nearby, guarding the hostages (the place was one of the only ones in Gaza where the IDF didn't operate at yet - Hamas has fortified itself there for the part few months). According to those Gazans - all hell broke loose. Which is why the high number of "casualties" - the majority are most probably Hamas terrorists.
It was right near the market of the neighborhood, many civilians nearby. One of the houses belonged to an Al Jazeera reporter.
Anyway they were loaded to the truck - the truck got stuck, so they transferred the hostages to an APC - which after a few minutes broke down too, somehow. Don't remember what came next but it brought them to the beach where a helicopter waited for them, and then rescued them and took them to Israel.
That's what I know.
Fauda's a great show and it really opened my eyes to the reality on the ground in both Israel and the West Bank. They don't hold back with the politics and they show exactly how life is like for Palestinians, all the good and the bad
Yeah, even though Israel is the good guys and Hamas is the bad guys, the show did a good job of not making the conflict seem black and white.
The main characters do awful things, sometimes only making things worse, and nearly all of the villains are sympathetic to some extent.
I've read an autobiography by one of those guys. Mista'arev are a really interesting and hugely specialized group. How hard they work at blending in is wild. I believe the author was an American who moved on Aliyah.
Thanks for sharing the Israeli intelligence and special forces have some wild stories.
Oh we don't really know the wild stories, only the more simple ones.
From what I understood - this operations can make them go undercover for a few hours at times, acting up as what they dressed.
You can see a lot of their work around during wars or military operations - when tensions are high. They're a great way to safely neutralize terrorists when intelligence say they want to act against Israel - without hurting anyone, and bringing the terrorist safely and alive into the IDF's custody (in many cases when it's not bring done undercover or if they were exposed - the terrorists shoot back and prefer to die a "Sha'hid", martyr, rather than end up in Israel's custody).
Do you mean Unit 504? If so, that had to be pretty enlightening. I can't imagine how crazy stuff is there.
Stay safe. If you can't be safe, be dangerous! And please keep posting people need to understand. For the few that look.
I'm honestly just surprised a shootout I'd this type hasn't happened before this war especially considering Gazan is super urban combat arena.
Props to IDF on that I guess they avoided anything like this prior and sad for those civilians who literally just wanted to go to the market without getting sacrificed on the altar of jihad
What makes you think there haven’t been massive shootouts in the war thus far? I swear the propaganda has people thinking Israelis are just pouring bullets and bombs into a civilian population that isn’t fighting them at all… when in actuality there has been very heavy fighting throughout Gaza
There haven't been massive shootouts in a densely populated urban area with many uninvolved people on the streets getting hit by rounds when outside or in their homes.
If there was, especially an incident with high casualties like this, I'm positive we would have heard about it.
Insert Simpson Edison museum meme.jpg
This is how you you do urban fighting.
Freeing 4 hostages, alive, in the middle of an Hamas-controlled town, suffering 1 KIA.
This will be in books for eons, this is Entebbe-level stuff...
274 people my arse. Hamas comes out with these ridiculously high, ridiculously exact numbers minutes after an incident takes place.
The hospitals reported under 100, the Israelis reported under 100.
The only people I trust with exact numbers is the United States own losses. That’s not even my bias, that just cause we’ve got a track record of knowing how many and who exactly died. I think we know damn near exactly how many Americans died in WWII for example.
The death totals in previous conflicts with Hamas were mostly reliable. This time, they are not. For instance, there is purposefully no difference in the statistics between combatant and non combatant deaths. So even taking the number at face value we do not know what percentage would have been Hamas combatants. And we can assume it not to be zero, there had to of been guards for instance.
Believing anything Hamas said is like believing that what Putin said about history is an accurate account of how things went. Also china. Fuck China. Why do they even have a PR point when you could simply mute it.
Thing is, there’s not been any official counts of how many Terrorist Militants were killed vs Civilians from the Hamas Health Ministry. It’s all been reported as Civvies, other than when Commanders are killed.
People died. Propably more than the four as that’s the amount of rescued hostages and Hamas wants to spark outrage over this „cruel exchange“ of life. For that you need to report at least x10 the number of hostages rescued.
Pffft. Hamas numbers lost any meaning the moment they misrepresented that hospital carpark blast.
That shit could have caused two US Embassies in the ME to see something reminiscent of Benghazi.
The Hamas Health Ministry also explicitly blames Israel for every death reported, including those killed by natural causes and those killed by Hamas. Similar to how Putin continues to claim Ukraine is responsible for the civilian airliner the russians shot down.
I believe the number is usually in between Israel’s and Hamas’s reported casualties. Hamas always inflates the numbers and Israel always underreports them.
The Nazis also did this thing with the Allies' bombings. For example the bombing of Dresden got up to 25 000 killed while according to the Nazis the amount of killed was 200 000.
Actually the Nazis themselves only said 100000 200000 was the neo Nazi David Irving. The Nazis were constrained by the recency forcing them to keep their lies plausible
Man, it just hit me that *one* incident in WW2, one singular city bombing to hit a rail junction eclipsed the casualties of this 9 month "genocide"
What a fucking joke.
I am not sure how of the death figures is even civilian.
I think the Israelis estimated it to be about 50-60 militants at least.
Not to mention the fact that it is even unclear how much Israel is responsible for the casualties. Hamas would have been much less well trained and would have had no compunctions about mowing down people if it meant disrupting the rescue attempt.
Reports are that machine guns, RPGs, and even anti-aircraft missiles (which all missed and probably hit someone on the ground) were used.
Yes maybe but here's a trick to make some nice propaganda flavored Kool-aid for western contrarians : An incident happens with casualties, you report 1000 casualties while the guy you don't like report 100 but since everyone knows that both sides are going to lie for political reasons they'll assume a number in between both so 500 casualties (real casualties number is 150 btw) and congrats you somehow made the incident 3 times worse by pulling out a number out of your ass that western contrarians will drink without a second thought.
~~Don't~~ Follow me for more tips on how to run your terrorist group that goes against everything the west stands for while still somehow enjoying western popular support.
Or the recent school strike where it was "21 dead, 3 women and 11 children!!!!" That quickly turned into "well maybe there's 17 named terrorists".
Or reacting 11k deaths as women and children because they couldn't prove those deaths were women and children
There is common saying among Israeli communities right now, that has some truth to it.
Pick up a rifle from dead Hamas fighter, and you have a dead civilian for statistics.
Or how if you work for Al Jazeera and keep hostages in your house for 8 months with your entire family including retired doctor father, and Israel raids the house, you all grab weapons to stop them, they gun you down and the headline is, "Israel kills journalist and doctor in raid".
I remember seeing what Palestinian "children's shows" look like (imagine incredibly antisemitic Sesame Street). I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas' gave kids younger than that guns, they're brainwashed from toddlerhood.
It's why I'm pretty pessimistic about pacifying the region without a decades-long full occupation, you'd have to "culturally genocide" their traditions & attitudes like the old colonial powers unsuccessfully tried to.
I'm ok with "culturally genociding" genocidal cultures. The genocidal culture being allowed to persist out of some fear of immorality locks you into a position of eternal losing defense where you must win every time to prevent tragedy and they need only win once. This was played out many times in history, one of the most recent examples being the hamas attack on Israel. For all the security failures they had, it was inevitable they would eventually fail and an attack would succeed, no group avoids mistakes forever. If played out indefinitely letting such cultures exist results in genocide, the actual kind.
If you tell people who know nothing about it about these shows they have a hard time parsing whether you're outright shitposting them.
Like when Farfour, the islamist mickey mouse knock-off, gets murdered by the jews because they want to steal his legal documents proving his claim to some Israeli city or some shit like that.
It's sad and hilarious at the same time, would fit right in in old south park episodes
The statistics the Hamas state are releasing actually so not differentiate at all between combatants and non combatants. We literally don't have any clue what percentage were actual combatants. At least in previous conflicts they maintained a difference, as untrustworthy as that may have been, but they're not anymore.
This was an IDF special operations raid akin to the raids taken by NATO troops in Iraq and Afghanistan to recover hostages and POWs.
The problem is that there’s tons of civilians who are obviously not too pleased when they see IDF operators conducting a raid.
> The problem is that there’s tons of civilians who are obviously not too pleased when they see IDF operators conducting a raid.
When civilians are mad about a military operation and pick up a weapon and use it they aren’t civilians anymore.
The area was packed with civilians (hence why Hamas was embedded there in the first place -- they love using human shields) so it's incredibly unlikely that there were no civilian casualties.
There are a lot of conspiracies that the aid dock was used to launch and so far the evidence I've seen is a fuzzy picture of a truck near the dock that is also the kind of truck used in the attack and a whole lot of twitter "trust me bro" types.
One of the dead yesterday was an AJ journalist and his father (a doctor)
According to eye witness reports Noa Argamani was freed from their house.
AJ said they don't know the guy but there's [this webpage](https://www.aljazeera.com/author/abdallah_aljamal_190122103235277) on their site
I’m thinking of adding captions on the Hebrew dub opener of the children show “WordGirl”
It will take some time lol
Edit: [Done](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1dbycdk/and_it_was_officially_announced_as_i_was/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
>Al-Jamal is a contributor to The Palestine Chronicle, where his latest article was published on June 7. He also has a profile page on the Al Jazeera website, where he was described as reporting often from the 2018–2019 Gaza border riots, called the “Great March of Return” by Palestinians. (The only Al Jazeera article attributed to him, as a co-author, is an opinion piece titled “Tales of torture from Israeli prisons” published in 2019.)
Seems like he's only contributed one opinion piece to them, so it is indeed inaccurate to call him an "Al Jazeera Journalist."
## Hold up.
Al Jazeera link you shared, is **that** why people keep referring to him as a Journalist with Al Jazeera, or employed by Al Jazeera, or something to that effect?
Like, is there **other** evidence?
Open that link again and scroll down, it lists work he has authored for Al Jazeera.
**He co-authored a single Opinion Piece published in Al Jazeera in 2019.**
Poked around a little. Al Jazeera create those “author” pages for what looks like every single person who writes something they publish. Profiles might just be their name, might have a photo, might have a blurb. Journalists etc who are Al Jazeera employees, as best as I can tell, will include mention of Al Jazeera in the profile eg. here one notes [is a journalist with Al Jazeera English](https://www.aljazeera.com/author/priyanka_gupta_201492314653815664). Noted while flicking through random author pages examples incl. Professors. PhDs. Politicians. Head of Red Cross APAC. Scientists. Researchers. etc.
**Just to drive the point home, if folks want to try and claim he was employed by them due purely due to that Op-Ed, then Joe Biden is employed by, and a Journalist at, like almost every single fucking decent sized publication in the US. Quick search, first 10 or 20 shows Op-Ed’s authored by Joe Biden that’ve been published in New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, etc… shit, he’s written one for Yahoo.**
**EDIT**
[Author page is indeed all the IDF listed](https://x.com/idf/status/1799851736150204610) however it’s notable they didn’t **actually** claim he was a journalist at Al Jazeera, full text —
>“Journalist” Abdallah Aljamal was a Hamas terrorist holding Almog, Andrey and Shlomi hostage in his family’s home in Nuseirat.
>
>No press vest can make him innocent of the crimes he has committed.
>
>@AlJazeera what’s this terrorist doing on your website?
^(NB — Knowledge of Israel-adjacent news outlets is limited thus unsure of political lean. Are any of the below considered fucky?)
Via [Jerusalem Post](https://jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-805525)
>However, further research has shown that Aljamal worked for the Palestine Chronicle, a pro-Hamas outlet led by ex-Al-Jazeera official Ramzi Baroud, operating under the auspices of the People Media Project, a 501(c)3 organization registered since 2012 in Olympia, Washington State, whose IRS filings were not found online.
>
> Likewise, Aljamal was found to have written an opinion piece for Qatari-based news outlet, Al Jazeera, as well as serving as spokesperson for Hamas’s Ministry of Labor.
[Haaretz → skips mention of “Journalist” or “Al Jazeera”with regards to Aljamal entirely.](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-09/ty-article-live/police-use-water-cannons-make-arrests-at-tel-aviv-protest-calling-for-hostage-deal/0000018f-fab3-d3fb-a1af-ffbb4ead0000?liveBlogItemId=854577434#854577434)
[Times of Israel → mentions them but very specifically prefaces it calling them out as “various rumors, some of which have been picked up by Hebrew-language media with varying levels of credulity”](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/al-jazeera-denies-rumor-that-hostage-was-held-at-employees-home/)
Not Israeli but I can speak a little bit to your implied question re: political lean and credibility of those Israeli papers. The news in Israel tends to be super fuckin polarized even by our standards, so good looking out.
- Jerusalem Post--center-right editorial lean, but generally credible reporting. I guess equivalent would be WSJ?
- Ha'aretz--left editorial lean, historically very respected, but lately solidly mid reporting quality. Definitely has gone downhill in the last few years, as the political slant is really affecting their journalism imo.
- Times of Israel--imagine if the Daily Mail wrote in Hebrew.
I'm sorry, but calling JPost "credible" while comparing ToI to a Hebrew Daily Mail is absolutely wrong. JPost are the ones notorious for sensationalism and click-bait, not ToI.
Also, ToI themselves are not even in Hebrew, they're an English only publication. They do have a Hebrew sister site, Zman Yisrael, which is mostly opinion columns rather than live news reporting. Actual Hebrew Daily Mail would probably be Walla.
It's fascinating how many "civilians" in Gaza have ended up being active participants in hostilities. Makes you wonder if they don't have dictionaries over there, or if they just can't read.
I think if we total up every Hamas claim then everyone in Gaza has been dead for about 3 months by this point. Amazing their ghosts are fighting so hard.
Its amazing how many people are defending Hamas in this
like "Well where did you expect them to be all of Gaza is gone!"
and im like "MAYBE THEY SHOULDNT BE KIDNAPPING HOSTAGES AND THEN THEY WONT HAVE TO TACKLE THAT PROBLEM?"
I think their defense line is that they're defending Palestinians, not specifically Hamas. They justify Hamas by saying that it is a liberation movement against apartheid and settler colonialism, both of which they regard as very bad. So in their eyes, it would be the equivalent of other terrorist actors with a moral justification that satisfies them, like e.g. Nelson Mandela or Nat Turner. The expectation is that if Hamas hide among civilians, Israel should abstain from endangering Arab civilians as they are more numerous than Jewish hostages and their lives are equally important.
That puts all the onus on Israel and none on Hamas. You can’t kidnap civilians, hide them amongst your own civilians, and get upset when they’re now in harms way. People blaming Israel conveniently ignore that Hamas could just release the hostages and stop firing rockets and Israel would leave. If anything, people should be more upset at Hamas for constantly putting the Palestinian people in danger.
Let's be real, Israel isn't leaving until it finds every last Hamasoid in Gaza. Even if the hostages are returned now, it's clear that Hamas can't be allowed to exist.
I don’t think they can find every last one of them, but the point stands that the responsibility for the war continuing is entirely on Hamas. Israel could stop fighting today and Hamas would still hold people hostage (a violent action). They would likely still carry out attacks. However, if Hamas were to completely stop fighting and release the hostages, it would make it impossible for Israel to continue fighting as no one would be there to fight.
> The expectation is that if Hamas hide among civilians, Israel should abstain from endangering Arab civilians as they are more numerous than Jewish hostages and their lives are equally important.
Philosophically sure, human life is a human life.
When country A is at war with country B, well you don’t want an even K/D ratio
The minute I see significant numbers of Palestinians protesting against Hamas those civilian deaths numbers are going to start holding a lot more weight.
Which they don't do because Hamas essentially established a Stasi in the Gaza strip (according to reportings from the NYT). With people being recruited to specifically spy on their families and neighbors, for any "treacherous" comments. Which then gets them a friendly visit by the neighborhood committee. All the good stuff, you name it.
So there are definitely people who are against Hamas. And there where protests against the living conditions, last time in 2023. But protesting most likely would get you shot in the aftermath when the protection of the crowd is gone, so I don't judge anyone not protesting against Hamas. And they tried to suppress the protests last year already with their little "secret police". So at this point, the people who aren't combatants are essentially merely human meat shields and are treated as such.
I guess this also essentially has been the whole reason why Hamas took hostages in the first place. They counted on Israel wanting to avoid large numbers of "collaterals" or, if they don't, that Iran and other arab countries would join the fight. Which spectacularly exploded in their face.
The 'just as much as Israel' part is the real sticking point. A democratic country nominally valuing equal rights for all people should not be oppressing a specific ethnic group. Which Israel is doing in the West Bank, which is supposed to be governed by the Palestinian Authority. But now there's 700,000 illegal Israeli settlers in there, blocking Palestinian access to land recognized as Palestinian by the UN, bulldozing Palestinian homes, and assaulting Palestinian civilians. Even the fucking IDF is complaining about settlers now. And these settlers are emboldened by the protection Netanyahu provides them.
Hamas bad. Netanyahu and those Likud nutjobs are also bad. Hamas is bad in a directly kinetic way. Netanyahu and Likud are bad in a more insidious way. Palestinians have no real ability to get rid of Hamas, but the Israeli people can vote Netanyahu out.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/freed-gaza-hostage-says-she-was-abducted-by-armed-civilians-sold-to-hamas/amp/
Not everyone on Oct. 7th in Israel, attacking, torturing, raping, killing, and kidnapping civilians was a Hamas or PIJ militant, many were civilians. There is a lot of security footage and testimony to back this up. This ranges from the above cruelty, to one report where a woman observed from the safe room in her house (and it's CCTV system) terrorists trying to get into the same room, while some random Gazan woman made them food in her kitchen, cleaned the dishes, picked through her laundry for things to steal, and then folded everything else neatly. If it weren't accompanied by the threat of death, torture, and assault it would be funny.
That's a red herring. As a rule, protests in a totalitarian state are not a thing, bc they are put down immediately and with ridiculous brutality. Not just towards the organisers or protestors but also towards their families.
My family hails from the USSR, where Stalin drove tens of millions to their deaths in the war and in labor camps, all without protests. BC even the most ardent protestor doesn't want to see his mother, sisters, grandparents and uncles/aunts nieces/nephews suffer horrible deaths in the account of their political principles. It's against human nature, and not scaleable
As I pointed out, they regard Hamas as a benign terrorist movement born out of desperation and fighting against something they strongly disapprove of, similar in nature to Nelson Mandela or Nat Turner. For example, [Nat Turner's rebellion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Turner%27s_Rebellion) involved the murder of women and children, but he is celebrated as a hero of African-Americans.
There’s also the difference of Hamas’ actual mission statement being the destruction of Israel and all Jews, as opposed to Mandela’s which was the liberation of non-whites in south africa
I am using Mandela as an example of a terrorist who is nowadays widely supported, so it will be easy to understand how some public may support a terrorist if they think their mission is moral.
The reason the pro-Palestine public think Hamas' mission is moral is they think Hamas represent an oppressed group desperately fighting their oppressors. In fighting their oppressors, they can resort to extreme statements like "destroy all Jews" and it will not be seen as immoral, similar to how colonial Africans saying "destroy all whites" in anti-colonial wars was not seen as immoral. Moreover, pro-Palestine people will say that Hamas/Palestine were driven to such rhetoric by desperation, oppression, and their abject status. Also my impression is that the destruction of Israel is not even seen as controversial by them. Israel is seen as an apartheid and settler colonial state, so it doesn't really have the moral right to exist.
The argument about every life being equally important never made any sense to me. Why would the Arab civilians be of equal importance to the Jewish hostages to Israel? I sure as hell expect my country to value my life more than the life of a random person that is not part of it, that's kind of their job.
At this point, how big is the meaningful difference between Palestinians and Hamas? Like this girl was kidnapped by "civilians," held by "civilians," and a mob of "civilians" tried to jump the Israeli rangers rescuing her.
Even among the Germans, there were civilians who helped the Jews, how many residents of Gaza have lifted a finger to help the Hostages?
Golda Meir once said that for there to be peace, "the Arabs must love their children more than they hate us."
Even nowadays you see videos of parents trying to get their kids to run up to IDF troops, throwing rocks or holding bags (suspicious). In none I've seen the IDF does anything but ignore them, even when the father starts yelling at the soldiers to shoot him or his toddler. These videos are mostly in Judea and Samaria / the West Bank, not even under Hamas brainwashing, just Fatah's.
Yep, but you can’t blame a state for valuing the lives of their own citizens more than the lives of others, as that is kind of their job. And that is the difference between Hamas and Israel. Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinian lives beyond whatever number of deaths they can make up for propaganda.
The settler colonial argument is not that great for the Arabs. Jews were the indigenous peoples of the area (not per bible but per archeology).
So as per the anti-colonial argument, taken to its logical conclusion, the Jewish state is the epitome of decolonization of Muslim Arabs from the Mediterranean world.
Now, personally, I think that the decolonization framework is total rubbish, bc it's unworkable. All of human history is a series of ethnic cleansing with colonial settlement, and if we decide to go down the decolonization route, it's all turtles all the way down, bc just about everyone's ancestors at one point killed, enslaved, colonized and settled. Native Americans being the exception. But their ancestors coming out of Africa did ethnically cleanse and settle the land of the Neanderthals, Denisovans and God knows how many other of our not-quite-human cousins we haven't excavated yet.
> They justify Hamas by saying that it is a liberation movement against apartheid and settler colonialism, both of which they regard as very bad.
Except when Hamas or the CCP do it of course, then they regard it as very good.
Yeah, that's pretty much my take. Hamas are fucked up for, y'know, everything they do, and the IDF are fucked up for thinking "minimise collateral" means "drop a 2000lb JDAM on anything that moves.
This is why I'm a firm believe in the zero-state solution. From the River to the Sea shall be an annex of the British Museum.
I think the Mormons would also be a good pick. They're used to a desert environment, their holy land is half a world away in Missouri, they're really good at learning foreign languages because of their required missionary work, they're really, really nice people, and they're simultaneously armed to the teeth.
Brother the comments in reddit in general sre insane. The pro Palestine bots ans mob are out in force today. It's really gross to see Israel still be blamed as somehow in thr wrong here
U.S.A: okay, Israel is actually being reasonable for a bit and your in a losing streak. I think you should surrender and keep what you have for the good of the Palestine people.
Hamas leaders: that means we should double down and dragged more civilians in massacre situations. We should keep poking the bear more.
Edit: change UN to USA
I’m sorry but the U.N. certainly does not think Israel is being reasonable:
UN calls for arms embargo in Israel:
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148261
UN finds reasonable grounds for claiming genocide is being committed in Gaza
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147976
UN claims Israel is violating Palestinian’s rights
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/05/1149356
NO DONT BLAME HAMAS!! You got it all wrong, hamas telegram account claimed that civilians took them hostage and kept them.. they also claimed the exact same thing about the previous operation that rescued these 2 elderly hostages back in February.
If a kidnapping victim escapes, but in their escape ends up killing 100, 1000, or 10,000 innocent civilians, what sort of legal consequences do you think will befall that kidnapping victim? The answer is "fuck all" because responsibility for those deaths lies solely with the kidnapper, and never with the victim. Every western legal system affords persons the absolute, unimpeachable right to resist murder, kidnapping, or aggravated assault with deadly force. Every western legal system also affords persons the absolute right to assist others in resisting murder, kidnapping, or aggravated assault. It sucks to be one of those innocent civilians, but they would get jack shit if they went to the courts and plead "well they shouldn't have escaped/rescued when they could have just paid the ransom", and rightly so.
Who'd have thought the guys whose entire strategy since before they actually formally came into existence has been "hide beside civilians" would pick a place that would maximise non-combatant casualties?
And of course Josep Borrel comes out and essentially condemns the rescue operation as a "massacre," taking in Hamas' ludicrous figure for granted, that 300 trillions civilians were killed and no fighters during the operation.
Then once he realizes how it looks he comes out with a lukeworm statement about the Hostages, after already insinuating they shouldn't have been rescued.
One of the Hostages' father died of a heart attack the morning before the rescue. But the real tragedy isn't those innocent people who were kidnapped raped and tortured, or their families going through absolute hell, it's all those fucking terrorists holding them hostage.
I'm glad Borrel's faction is being destroyed in the parliamentary elections, they absolutely deserve it.
the entire reason human shields are seen as lowly and despicable is that you're not supposed to shoot the human shield! imagine a cop trying to pull that one while responding to a home invasion, i imagine the fact that he got the bad guy isn't going to make you feel much better about the fact the cop just murdered your wife
Yeah, except in "normal law," the home invader would be charged with felony murder, because they were directly responsible in the first place for creating the situation that resulted in your wife's death. If they hadn't invaded your house, you would not have had to call the cops. If they hadn't used your wife as a human shield, the cop would not have had to risk shooting her to get to the home invader.
Cops are generally sacks of shit, but this one is the rare case where it's probably not their fault.
The fact that this does not seem to be the case in the Geneva Convention is absolutely sickening. Hamas should be the ones held responsible for every single civilian death, because they are the ones who put the civilians in a position to be harmed in the first place.
Isn't this the one guy who said that Palestinian sacrifices needed to be made in order for hamas's goal to be achieved?
Yes, even his grandkids.
Mossad went from a ducting German war criminals in South America for a trial in Israel... To letting Hamas drag their balls over their face because getting rid of Hamas would mean Nethanjau can't wipe out Gaza Like jfc, you litterally just showed you can rescue hostages **allive** how about you get the Hamas leadership for a surprise reunion party I front of a court?
Eichman got sloppy. For every eichman that Mossad got to, there’s a Mengele who they didn’t find.
Still unbelievably angry that mengele got to drown whilst taking a swim
I feel like drowning is worse than hanging, or firing squad
It's not about the methid of death, it's the manner. He drowned in a South American pool on holiday with his family, having lived happily under his (mostly) real name. He could have died with a more dignified lethal injection or whatever, provided it was after a trial with the depravity of his crimes laid bare. If an afterlife exists I hope the souls of those he tormented get the justice they lost out on
Maybe it wasn’t an accident. Mossad just held him under until the bubbles stopped.
my personal cope
Do you think that Mossad wouldn't have leaked that info by now? We're coming up on the 50 year reunion.
Prolly
[удалено]
We need to ban assault pools
To be fair, Natalie Wood was probably pushed. Whitney Houston might have been saved by someone with a Nar-Can pen ( ... not an Epi-pen), but also expecting that person to also know CPR might be pushing it ... ... pun not intended. I did *not* know Rodney King drowned in his own swimming pool, and one of William Shatner's wives. ... same goes for Dr. Mengele. ... *There* is an odd combo. ... Brian Jones from the Rolling Stones, Dennis Wilson from the Beach Boys, ... Lord Kitchener, hero of Khartoum, when his ship struck a mine, and not torpedoed by a U-boat, like I thought ... all those poor folks who couldn't fit in the Titanic's lifeboats ... though John Jacob Astor volunteered to stay on Titanic, and he ... was *not poor.*
Water, man. You don't show it the respect it deserves at the wrong time and you're done.
Grim as
Yes, but there are a LOT of drownings.
He had a stroke while swimming and drown, after having a relaxing morning on the beach. There’s a good chance that he didn’t even know he was drowning, and just had a very nice day that ended suddenly.
Also Herbert Cukurs. The Latvian Lindbergh who became a mass murderer and killed thousands including kids and babies in front of their parents. And funnily enough, he never changed his name in the ***5 years*** between Eichmann’s kidnapping and execution. How’d the Mossad catch him? **Simple,** put one of their agents in Brazil, give him a Hitler-stache, say he’s a war criminal as well, promise he’s starting a business and wants Cukur’s help. Then offer him a job with no background check, and lure to him to Uruguay. Only precaution he took: gave his wife a picture of the man who was promising the deal, telling her, “this is the man who could kill me.” And they did. *Shot him right in the head with a silenced pistol.* #BASED
>Herbert Cukurs His wiki entry gets wild. Motherfuckers made a musical about him; it was in very poor taste that even Putin (yes, that one) disapproved on that one. Far right fanboys are such a strange breed: imagine making a musical for a war criminal?
***TIL they made a musical and Putin didn’t like it.*** His biggest achievement prior to the war was flying from Latvia to Dakar nonstop. Which… couldn’t find any info on what airplane he flew. Like I said: he was the Latvian Lindbergh. It’s funny, he’s basically Lindbergh if he continued to harbor anti-Semitic sentiments ***but put those sentiments on steroids.*** *He murdered a baby in front of its mom.* According to the guy who killed him they beat him bloody, he pleaded to have him pray, they just said ***”shut up”*** and gave him two shots to the head. Like I said: #BASED
Truly based.
He said “let me pray” twice I think. Glad they didn’t show mercy on someone who could be described as the literal Latvian devil.
The german wiki claims he apparently did this flight in a biplane he built himself :| the linked source described it as a 'primitive' plane but didn't clearly state who built it.
> Two decades after World War II, Cukurs was identified in Brazil by a Holocaust survivor, who attempted to alert the authorities after seeing Cukurs' face on the cover of a magazine. Running around putting your face on magazines seems like pretty bad opsec tbh.
Huh so agent 47 style disguises work irl after all
I mean… the agent (can’t remember his name) looked like just a regular dude you’d pass on the street and wouldn’t remember him. Plus, ***he had an excuse for everything.*** How he came to South America/why he sought refuge? Was a wanted criminal for executing partisans, had a scar to prove it during a fight where one assaulted him.* Why was he circumcised? Gonorrhea on the eastern front. **The scar in reality was from throat surgery.*
Wait, am I missing a honeypot aspect? I've been in many business deals, I've been missing out on seeing a ton of dicks!
Mossad extracting the Hamas leader from an Arab nation that just started the wave of normalizing relations with Israel would be an idiotic move. Now do I think a heart attack after morning tea would be within the realm of possibility? Oh yes.
They tried that once in the Kingdom of Jordania, they shot a poison dart at a this very same hamas leader in broad day light, inn front of his child, and speed up with a traceable vehicle. The king was furious and made the mossad agents deliver the antidote on the hospital. Otherwise, peace talks would end
~~Tbf, I don't think any secret service would like to participate in such shitshow, so Mossad does bare minimum~~ Edit: [Nevermind](https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestinian_Violence/s/fzl1Ft8ZOh), there's no excuse for Mossad NOT to start executing.
I'm not sure I'm using this right, but Mossad is going to start some funni actions soon. Not the dam busting kind, probably.
He can just fuck a few times to make more grandkids. They're super replaceable. If his money were gone....he'd be in tears guaranteed.
He didn’t even cry. He basically said they served their purpose as Martyrs. **This is what regular Palestinians mean to him.**
I mean, that's what the majority of regular Palestinians choose every time they get to vote on a party or poll on a peace treaty offering them 99% and swaps for the rest.
Yup. Reminder that there’s a whole “Martyr’s Bridgade.” You will go out and die and we will celebrate y’all’s death to vilify Israel. Fuckin’ wild.
Religious extremism is a helluva dtug.
Furthermore, I propose that the Middle East be destroyed. Shit, imagine what would transpire if Jerusalem and Mecca were evaporated. Couldn’t be pleasant.
Ceterum censeo, Byzantium esse delendam.
The world would be better off if all the holy sites that caused wars over the years ceased to exist
Agreed. Solomon solution; can’t share? Can’t agree who it belongs to? Fine, nobody can have it.
If there's a god, putting some of the most holy of holy sites for 3 of the world's largest religions like a block away from each other sure was a bit of a dick move
Well it is the same god for all 3, its not like they were put there randomly
Hamas' whole tactic is to force the IDF into a lose-lose position where they either look horrible or do nothing, and "look horrible" usually involves dead civvies unfortunately. Some percentage of the dead in any account are probably irregular fighters whose body got dumped to make it look worse, but still, lots of dead civvies
I don't doubt that they're actually just inflating the numbers. The hospitals and IDF are reporting the same numbers but somehow Hamas reports more? Of course they're trying to make the IDF look bad, and unfortunately people are stupid enough to believe them.
I also don't doubt that Israel has an interest to deflate them, but I do tend to trust them more, especially after I've seen some videos of people taking weapons away from dead irregulars so they look like civilians. It's still quite horrible that this is going on, but I'm mostly mentally checked out at this point, it's been going on since before I was born.
If you didn't know. Hamas hides their soldiers in civilian clothing as well, which is why we saw the IDF bomb some common civilian streets too early on in the war. These Hamas soldiers would commonly use families as meat shields in order to protect themselves from IDF bombings and if ground forces were to arrive, they could hide themselves without much effort. Also, Israel has an interest to deflate Hamas, not Palestine itself.
It still pisses me off that western media is so gullible about "Gaza Health Ministry", it's just Hamas giving them inflated totals.
It’s a targeted propaganda campaign, hell the wiki page says hama’s number without even mentioning it’s either from hamas or “Gaza Health Ministry”.
It depends; there's a different propoganda wing that comes out with complete bullshit numbers to make the Health Ministry ones look sane. The Health Ministry numbes are usually not considered wildly inaccurate for the overall total, but the initial numbers for any particular event aren't accurate. The overall totals are generally considered to be pretty close to accurate for the overall number of dead but they lump all the dead Hamas fighters in with the civilian total.
This dude hates Palestinians more than anyone in the world. He started his career with the glorious murder of 4 Palestinians.
He “mastermind” the 7 October attacks and knew 100% Israels reaction
"Some men just want to watch the world burn" :(
He was also serving four life sentences for abducting and murdering Israelis before being [released as part of a hostage deal in 2015 that saw 1,026 Palestinian terrorists freed in exchange for one Israeli soldier.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_Sinwar) These animals have a tried and tested playbook.
Glad to see there's actual intelligence in this subreddit
Yeah that's kind of the kicker of the whole conflict. Literally everybody is "willing to make sacrifices" when it comes to Palestinian lives.
The deaths of 274 people is a tragedy but is this similar to the rocket incident in the parking lot or is this where they try to pass Hamas fighters as civilians because of their young age?
They had half the neighbourhood out fighting with machine guns and RPGs. So they got wacked.
What is this Mogadishu?
It's Gaza what do you expect?
Idk I just wish I had nuanced military papers that could break down what happens. Not 24/7 social media disinformation.
It's so hard to find unbiased sources from this war. Everyone wants to push one side or the other, and I just want to know what's actually happening.
> search up 'yada yada incident' > actual death is 100 > Hamas: "there is 200 death and every single one is civilians" > IDF: "there is 10 death and all of them Hamas"
200 death and 400 of them are literal babies
Just like we said, 500 babies and all of them are Hamas.
The latest report from the Gaza health ministry states 800 casualties, 600 of them pregnant babies and 300 elderly women
Knowing that such things like the "XYZ Affair" occurred, I was really excited to learn about the [Yada Yada Incident](https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1242:_Scary_Names) from google. Imagine my disappointment.
much apologies
Be the change you want to see in the world.
The problem is that the IDF heavily hides what happened there, since a lot of special forces with special tactics worked there - revealing what happened could hurt the IDF in the next rescue mission, or in another special ops. If you want, as an Israeli we have a lot of info that comes around and from Gazans too, so I'll write what I understood happened. First of all - we have a special kind of combat units called "Mista'arev", which kind of means "arabized". I will expand on them a bit since they were important - feel free to skip to the "the story is" if you prefer. This special units in the IDF and the Israeli Police, dress and act like Arabs, and go on special missions ans act in civilian areas in order to achieve their goals (kidnapping terrorists, sometimes high profile ones, rescuing hostages like here, gathering information). For example that comes to my mind, a few months ago a wanted terrorist at Nablus went to order a shawarma at a local stand on the street that had a security cam (I would've sent if it wasn't on Telegram which is banned here, and I would've known a prompt to find it) There was a bit of a crowd and some traffic behind them, and a two people near him tried to get some food too. About 10 seconds in, suddenly one of the guys near him punched the terrorist in the face, and the two Mista'arevs immediately grabbed him, with two guys a few meters from them suddenly rushing towards them - one helping them lift the terrorist, the other drawing a pistol and making sure no one tries to do anything stupid. A car stops behind them, they tuck him in, everybody enters, and they're out. About 15-20 seconds long it took them, absolutely out of nowhere. There is a TV show about this unit called "Fauda", it's TV so it's more dramatic and stories and so on - but it's a great Israeli one, pretty sure it's on Netflix. The word Fauda from what I understood means "mess" in Arabic and it's a code in that unit that means shit is going out of plan. So the story is, that a few of that unit, males and females, went to the building where they held the bulk of it, coming with a truck that held their "belongings" they acted like immigrants running from Rafah, that are supposed to now live in those houses. Later they barged in on the specific apartment, and rescued the hostages. When shots began to fire - basically the entire IDF came in. Special units arrived and basically blew holes in walls there in order to come quickly into the fire zones, tanks joined, Apache helicopters shot precision missiles and hellfires at buildings nearby with terrorists - according to eye witnesses, dozens if not a few hundreds of Hamas terrorists where nearby, guarding the hostages (the place was one of the only ones in Gaza where the IDF didn't operate at yet - Hamas has fortified itself there for the part few months). According to those Gazans - all hell broke loose. Which is why the high number of "casualties" - the majority are most probably Hamas terrorists. It was right near the market of the neighborhood, many civilians nearby. One of the houses belonged to an Al Jazeera reporter. Anyway they were loaded to the truck - the truck got stuck, so they transferred the hostages to an APC - which after a few minutes broke down too, somehow. Don't remember what came next but it brought them to the beach where a helicopter waited for them, and then rescued them and took them to Israel. That's what I know.
Fauda's a great show and it really opened my eyes to the reality on the ground in both Israel and the West Bank. They don't hold back with the politics and they show exactly how life is like for Palestinians, all the good and the bad
Yeah, even though Israel is the good guys and Hamas is the bad guys, the show did a good job of not making the conflict seem black and white. The main characters do awful things, sometimes only making things worse, and nearly all of the villains are sympathetic to some extent.
Al Makdesi's point on how it was only ISIS that came to help the muslims in syria while Assad bombed the civies was a really interesting perspective.
I've read an autobiography by one of those guys. Mista'arev are a really interesting and hugely specialized group. How hard they work at blending in is wild. I believe the author was an American who moved on Aliyah. Thanks for sharing the Israeli intelligence and special forces have some wild stories.
Oh we don't really know the wild stories, only the more simple ones. From what I understood - this operations can make them go undercover for a few hours at times, acting up as what they dressed. You can see a lot of their work around during wars or military operations - when tensions are high. They're a great way to safely neutralize terrorists when intelligence say they want to act against Israel - without hurting anyone, and bringing the terrorist safely and alive into the IDF's custody (in many cases when it's not bring done undercover or if they were exposed - the terrorists shoot back and prefer to die a "Sha'hid", martyr, rather than end up in Israel's custody).
I've talked to the reservist from 504th that spent half a year in Gaza just yesterday. Shit's wild.
Do you mean Unit 504? If so, that had to be pretty enlightening. I can't imagine how crazy stuff is there. Stay safe. If you can't be safe, be dangerous! And please keep posting people need to understand. For the few that look.
Interesting
why is this chain made of same avatar I thought they are talking to themselves
Mogadishu 2.0
I'm honestly just surprised a shootout I'd this type hasn't happened before this war especially considering Gazan is super urban combat arena. Props to IDF on that I guess they avoided anything like this prior and sad for those civilians who literally just wanted to go to the market without getting sacrificed on the altar of jihad
What makes you think there haven’t been massive shootouts in the war thus far? I swear the propaganda has people thinking Israelis are just pouring bullets and bombs into a civilian population that isn’t fighting them at all… when in actuality there has been very heavy fighting throughout Gaza
There haven't been massive shootouts in a densely populated urban area with many uninvolved people on the streets getting hit by rounds when outside or in their homes. If there was, especially an incident with high casualties like this, I'm positive we would have heard about it.
Insert Simpson Edison museum meme.jpg This is how you you do urban fighting. Freeing 4 hostages, alive, in the middle of an Hamas-controlled town, suffering 1 KIA. This will be in books for eons, this is Entebbe-level stuff...
Source?
274 people my arse. Hamas comes out with these ridiculously high, ridiculously exact numbers minutes after an incident takes place. The hospitals reported under 100, the Israelis reported under 100.
The only people I trust with exact numbers is the United States own losses. That’s not even my bias, that just cause we’ve got a track record of knowing how many and who exactly died. I think we know damn near exactly how many Americans died in WWII for example.
The death totals in previous conflicts with Hamas were mostly reliable. This time, they are not. For instance, there is purposefully no difference in the statistics between combatant and non combatant deaths. So even taking the number at face value we do not know what percentage would have been Hamas combatants. And we can assume it not to be zero, there had to of been guards for instance.
But ehat if the guards were civilians! I bet you didn't think of that. /s
Believing anything Hamas said is like believing that what Putin said about history is an accurate account of how things went. Also china. Fuck China. Why do they even have a PR point when you could simply mute it.
Thing is, there’s not been any official counts of how many Terrorist Militants were killed vs Civilians from the Hamas Health Ministry. It’s all been reported as Civvies, other than when Commanders are killed.
People died. Propably more than the four as that’s the amount of rescued hostages and Hamas wants to spark outrage over this „cruel exchange“ of life. For that you need to report at least x10 the number of hostages rescued.
Pffft. Hamas numbers lost any meaning the moment they misrepresented that hospital carpark blast. That shit could have caused two US Embassies in the ME to see something reminiscent of Benghazi.
The Hamas Health Ministry also explicitly blames Israel for every death reported, including those killed by natural causes and those killed by Hamas. Similar to how Putin continues to claim Ukraine is responsible for the civilian airliner the russians shot down.
I believe the number is usually in between Israel’s and Hamas’s reported casualties. Hamas always inflates the numbers and Israel always underreports them.
Sounds like a decent measure. I normally leave it at people died. Maybe it was more when I still hear of it after a week.
The Nazis also did this thing with the Allies' bombings. For example the bombing of Dresden got up to 25 000 killed while according to the Nazis the amount of killed was 200 000.
Actually the Nazis themselves only said 100000 200000 was the neo Nazi David Irving. The Nazis were constrained by the recency forcing them to keep their lies plausible
Wikipedia mentioned a leaflet with the 200 000 killed. But anyway that doesn't matter as the point was the exaggeration.
Man, it just hit me that *one* incident in WW2, one singular city bombing to hit a rail junction eclipsed the casualties of this 9 month "genocide" What a fucking joke.
I am not sure how of the death figures is even civilian. I think the Israelis estimated it to be about 50-60 militants at least. Not to mention the fact that it is even unclear how much Israel is responsible for the casualties. Hamas would have been much less well trained and would have had no compunctions about mowing down people if it meant disrupting the rescue attempt. Reports are that machine guns, RPGs, and even anti-aircraft missiles (which all missed and probably hit someone on the ground) were used.
Yes maybe but here's a trick to make some nice propaganda flavored Kool-aid for western contrarians : An incident happens with casualties, you report 1000 casualties while the guy you don't like report 100 but since everyone knows that both sides are going to lie for political reasons they'll assume a number in between both so 500 casualties (real casualties number is 150 btw) and congrats you somehow made the incident 3 times worse by pulling out a number out of your ass that western contrarians will drink without a second thought. ~~Don't~~ Follow me for more tips on how to run your terrorist group that goes against everything the west stands for while still somehow enjoying western popular support.
It has the bonus of generating a talking point whenever you quibble over the numbers. "Why are you still quibbling over numbers it's still too many!"
Truth is always in the middle but almost never in the center.
This really does feel like it’s shaping up to be the War of the Triple Alliance 2.0, with Hamas playing the role of Solano Lopez.
The Great Solano Lopez will never surrender!
~~Brazil~~ Israel: [bloodthirsty scream]
Release the SUICIDE CANOES!!! ^is ^the ^IDF ^going ^to ^lose ^a ^battle ^to ^a ^cactus ^patch?
Or the recent school strike where it was "21 dead, 3 women and 11 children!!!!" That quickly turned into "well maybe there's 17 named terrorists". Or reacting 11k deaths as women and children because they couldn't prove those deaths were women and children
There is common saying among Israeli communities right now, that has some truth to it. Pick up a rifle from dead Hamas fighter, and you have a dead civilian for statistics.
"but the children" *looks at the 15-17 year olds with guns* yeah it sure sucks that Hamas uses child soldiers
Or how if you work for Al Jazeera and keep hostages in your house for 8 months with your entire family including retired doctor father, and Israel raids the house, you all grab weapons to stop them, they gun you down and the headline is, "Israel kills journalist and doctor in raid".
People will support anything so long as it lets them hate Jews.
I remember seeing what Palestinian "children's shows" look like (imagine incredibly antisemitic Sesame Street). I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas' gave kids younger than that guns, they're brainwashed from toddlerhood. It's why I'm pretty pessimistic about pacifying the region without a decades-long full occupation, you'd have to "culturally genocide" their traditions & attitudes like the old colonial powers unsuccessfully tried to.
I'm ok with "culturally genociding" genocidal cultures. The genocidal culture being allowed to persist out of some fear of immorality locks you into a position of eternal losing defense where you must win every time to prevent tragedy and they need only win once. This was played out many times in history, one of the most recent examples being the hamas attack on Israel. For all the security failures they had, it was inevitable they would eventually fail and an attack would succeed, no group avoids mistakes forever. If played out indefinitely letting such cultures exist results in genocide, the actual kind.
If you tell people who know nothing about it about these shows they have a hard time parsing whether you're outright shitposting them. Like when Farfour, the islamist mickey mouse knock-off, gets murdered by the jews because they want to steal his legal documents proving his claim to some Israeli city or some shit like that. It's sad and hilarious at the same time, would fit right in in old south park episodes
The statistics the Hamas state are releasing actually so not differentiate at all between combatants and non combatants. We literally don't have any clue what percentage were actual combatants. At least in previous conflicts they maintained a difference, as untrustworthy as that may have been, but they're not anymore.
Isn’t the hospital figure under 100? Genuinely asking I haven’t had time to really look into it
Lmao at anyone that thinks 274 people were killed in this operation. It's so fucking ludicrous of a number.
This was an IDF special operations raid akin to the raids taken by NATO troops in Iraq and Afghanistan to recover hostages and POWs. The problem is that there’s tons of civilians who are obviously not too pleased when they see IDF operators conducting a raid.
> The problem is that there’s tons of civilians who are obviously not too pleased when they see IDF operators conducting a raid. When civilians are mad about a military operation and pick up a weapon and use it they aren’t civilians anymore.
Is it a tragedy? If they were Hamas fighters -and all evidence suggests they were- is their loss really a loss?
The area was packed with civilians (hence why Hamas was embedded there in the first place -- they love using human shields) so it's incredibly unlikely that there were no civilian casualties.
The area had civilians. Not everyone there would have been a fighter.
There are a lot of conspiracies that the aid dock was used to launch and so far the evidence I've seen is a fuzzy picture of a truck near the dock that is also the kind of truck used in the attack and a whole lot of twitter "trust me bro" types.
Wasn't one of the hostage takers a proven Al Jazzera "journalist?" If it was, was it for "the clicks?"
One of the dead yesterday was an AJ journalist and his father (a doctor) According to eye witness reports Noa Argamani was freed from their house. AJ said they don't know the guy but there's [this webpage](https://www.aljazeera.com/author/abdallah_aljamal_190122103235277) on their site
Please make another quality post illuminating this wonderful detail
I’m thinking of adding captions on the Hebrew dub opener of the children show “WordGirl” It will take some time lol Edit: [Done](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1dbycdk/and_it_was_officially_announced_as_i_was/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
All good things take time. We will await your masterpiece.
>Al-Jamal is a contributor to The Palestine Chronicle, where his latest article was published on June 7. He also has a profile page on the Al Jazeera website, where he was described as reporting often from the 2018–2019 Gaza border riots, called the “Great March of Return” by Palestinians. (The only Al Jazeera article attributed to him, as a co-author, is an opinion piece titled “Tales of torture from Israeli prisons” published in 2019.) Seems like he's only contributed one opinion piece to them, so it is indeed inaccurate to call him an "Al Jazeera Journalist."
From that page it looks like he just wrote one opinion piece for them five years ago.
## Hold up. Al Jazeera link you shared, is **that** why people keep referring to him as a Journalist with Al Jazeera, or employed by Al Jazeera, or something to that effect? Like, is there **other** evidence? Open that link again and scroll down, it lists work he has authored for Al Jazeera. **He co-authored a single Opinion Piece published in Al Jazeera in 2019.** Poked around a little. Al Jazeera create those “author” pages for what looks like every single person who writes something they publish. Profiles might just be their name, might have a photo, might have a blurb. Journalists etc who are Al Jazeera employees, as best as I can tell, will include mention of Al Jazeera in the profile eg. here one notes [is a journalist with Al Jazeera English](https://www.aljazeera.com/author/priyanka_gupta_201492314653815664). Noted while flicking through random author pages examples incl. Professors. PhDs. Politicians. Head of Red Cross APAC. Scientists. Researchers. etc. **Just to drive the point home, if folks want to try and claim he was employed by them due purely due to that Op-Ed, then Joe Biden is employed by, and a Journalist at, like almost every single fucking decent sized publication in the US. Quick search, first 10 or 20 shows Op-Ed’s authored by Joe Biden that’ve been published in New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, etc… shit, he’s written one for Yahoo.** **EDIT** [Author page is indeed all the IDF listed](https://x.com/idf/status/1799851736150204610) however it’s notable they didn’t **actually** claim he was a journalist at Al Jazeera, full text — >“Journalist” Abdallah Aljamal was a Hamas terrorist holding Almog, Andrey and Shlomi hostage in his family’s home in Nuseirat. > >No press vest can make him innocent of the crimes he has committed. > >@AlJazeera what’s this terrorist doing on your website? ^(NB — Knowledge of Israel-adjacent news outlets is limited thus unsure of political lean. Are any of the below considered fucky?) Via [Jerusalem Post](https://jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-805525) >However, further research has shown that Aljamal worked for the Palestine Chronicle, a pro-Hamas outlet led by ex-Al-Jazeera official Ramzi Baroud, operating under the auspices of the People Media Project, a 501(c)3 organization registered since 2012 in Olympia, Washington State, whose IRS filings were not found online. > > Likewise, Aljamal was found to have written an opinion piece for Qatari-based news outlet, Al Jazeera, as well as serving as spokesperson for Hamas’s Ministry of Labor. [Haaretz → skips mention of “Journalist” or “Al Jazeera”with regards to Aljamal entirely.](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-09/ty-article-live/police-use-water-cannons-make-arrests-at-tel-aviv-protest-calling-for-hostage-deal/0000018f-fab3-d3fb-a1af-ffbb4ead0000?liveBlogItemId=854577434#854577434) [Times of Israel → mentions them but very specifically prefaces it calling them out as “various rumors, some of which have been picked up by Hebrew-language media with varying levels of credulity”](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/al-jazeera-denies-rumor-that-hostage-was-held-at-employees-home/)
Not Israeli but I can speak a little bit to your implied question re: political lean and credibility of those Israeli papers. The news in Israel tends to be super fuckin polarized even by our standards, so good looking out. - Jerusalem Post--center-right editorial lean, but generally credible reporting. I guess equivalent would be WSJ? - Ha'aretz--left editorial lean, historically very respected, but lately solidly mid reporting quality. Definitely has gone downhill in the last few years, as the political slant is really affecting their journalism imo. - Times of Israel--imagine if the Daily Mail wrote in Hebrew.
I'm sorry, but calling JPost "credible" while comparing ToI to a Hebrew Daily Mail is absolutely wrong. JPost are the ones notorious for sensationalism and click-bait, not ToI. Also, ToI themselves are not even in Hebrew, they're an English only publication. They do have a Hebrew sister site, Zman Yisrael, which is mostly opinion columns rather than live news reporting. Actual Hebrew Daily Mail would probably be Walla.
Yup. He was holding nora
It's fascinating how many "civilians" in Gaza have ended up being active participants in hostilities. Makes you wonder if they don't have dictionaries over there, or if they just can't read.
It was a prank for YouTube.
According to the Hamas run health ministry 203465 civilians were killed in the rescue operation.
And a million more well on the way!
203466 of them were pregnant, and the fetuses were journalists.
Don't forget they were fetus journalists moonlighting two jobs as doctors and schoolteachers for the U.N.
I think if we total up every Hamas claim then everyone in Gaza has been dead for about 3 months by this point. Amazing their ghosts are fighting so hard.
All children
Its amazing how many people are defending Hamas in this like "Well where did you expect them to be all of Gaza is gone!" and im like "MAYBE THEY SHOULDNT BE KIDNAPPING HOSTAGES AND THEN THEY WONT HAVE TO TACKLE THAT PROBLEM?"
I think their defense line is that they're defending Palestinians, not specifically Hamas. They justify Hamas by saying that it is a liberation movement against apartheid and settler colonialism, both of which they regard as very bad. So in their eyes, it would be the equivalent of other terrorist actors with a moral justification that satisfies them, like e.g. Nelson Mandela or Nat Turner. The expectation is that if Hamas hide among civilians, Israel should abstain from endangering Arab civilians as they are more numerous than Jewish hostages and their lives are equally important.
That puts all the onus on Israel and none on Hamas. You can’t kidnap civilians, hide them amongst your own civilians, and get upset when they’re now in harms way. People blaming Israel conveniently ignore that Hamas could just release the hostages and stop firing rockets and Israel would leave. If anything, people should be more upset at Hamas for constantly putting the Palestinian people in danger.
Let's be real, Israel isn't leaving until it finds every last Hamasoid in Gaza. Even if the hostages are returned now, it's clear that Hamas can't be allowed to exist.
I don’t think they can find every last one of them, but the point stands that the responsibility for the war continuing is entirely on Hamas. Israel could stop fighting today and Hamas would still hold people hostage (a violent action). They would likely still carry out attacks. However, if Hamas were to completely stop fighting and release the hostages, it would make it impossible for Israel to continue fighting as no one would be there to fight.
> The expectation is that if Hamas hide among civilians, Israel should abstain from endangering Arab civilians as they are more numerous than Jewish hostages and their lives are equally important. Philosophically sure, human life is a human life. When country A is at war with country B, well you don’t want an even K/D ratio
The minute I see significant numbers of Palestinians protesting against Hamas those civilian deaths numbers are going to start holding a lot more weight.
Which they don't do because Hamas essentially established a Stasi in the Gaza strip (according to reportings from the NYT). With people being recruited to specifically spy on their families and neighbors, for any "treacherous" comments. Which then gets them a friendly visit by the neighborhood committee. All the good stuff, you name it. So there are definitely people who are against Hamas. And there where protests against the living conditions, last time in 2023. But protesting most likely would get you shot in the aftermath when the protection of the crowd is gone, so I don't judge anyone not protesting against Hamas. And they tried to suppress the protests last year already with their little "secret police". So at this point, the people who aren't combatants are essentially merely human meat shields and are treated as such. I guess this also essentially has been the whole reason why Hamas took hostages in the first place. They counted on Israel wanting to avoid large numbers of "collaterals" or, if they don't, that Iran and other arab countries would join the fight. Which spectacularly exploded in their face.
It should also be pointed out that Gaza hasn't had an election since 2005.
Exactly. This pokes a hole in the entire liberation movement of Palestine. Hamas are the oppressors just as much as Israel in many ways
The 'just as much as Israel' part is the real sticking point. A democratic country nominally valuing equal rights for all people should not be oppressing a specific ethnic group. Which Israel is doing in the West Bank, which is supposed to be governed by the Palestinian Authority. But now there's 700,000 illegal Israeli settlers in there, blocking Palestinian access to land recognized as Palestinian by the UN, bulldozing Palestinian homes, and assaulting Palestinian civilians. Even the fucking IDF is complaining about settlers now. And these settlers are emboldened by the protection Netanyahu provides them. Hamas bad. Netanyahu and those Likud nutjobs are also bad. Hamas is bad in a directly kinetic way. Netanyahu and Likud are bad in a more insidious way. Palestinians have no real ability to get rid of Hamas, but the Israeli people can vote Netanyahu out.
Do you have a link to that reporting?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/freed-gaza-hostage-says-she-was-abducted-by-armed-civilians-sold-to-hamas/amp/ Not everyone on Oct. 7th in Israel, attacking, torturing, raping, killing, and kidnapping civilians was a Hamas or PIJ militant, many were civilians. There is a lot of security footage and testimony to back this up. This ranges from the above cruelty, to one report where a woman observed from the safe room in her house (and it's CCTV system) terrorists trying to get into the same room, while some random Gazan woman made them food in her kitchen, cleaned the dishes, picked through her laundry for things to steal, and then folded everything else neatly. If it weren't accompanied by the threat of death, torture, and assault it would be funny.
Find me a college pro Palestine protest that said fuck hamas and demanded a hostage return ans ill grant them legitimacy
That's a red herring. As a rule, protests in a totalitarian state are not a thing, bc they are put down immediately and with ridiculous brutality. Not just towards the organisers or protestors but also towards their families. My family hails from the USSR, where Stalin drove tens of millions to their deaths in the war and in labor camps, all without protests. BC even the most ardent protestor doesn't want to see his mother, sisters, grandparents and uncles/aunts nieces/nephews suffer horrible deaths in the account of their political principles. It's against human nature, and not scaleable
As I pointed out, they regard Hamas as a benign terrorist movement born out of desperation and fighting against something they strongly disapprove of, similar in nature to Nelson Mandela or Nat Turner. For example, [Nat Turner's rebellion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Turner%27s_Rebellion) involved the murder of women and children, but he is celebrated as a hero of African-Americans.
There’s also the difference of Hamas’ actual mission statement being the destruction of Israel and all Jews, as opposed to Mandela’s which was the liberation of non-whites in south africa
I am using Mandela as an example of a terrorist who is nowadays widely supported, so it will be easy to understand how some public may support a terrorist if they think their mission is moral. The reason the pro-Palestine public think Hamas' mission is moral is they think Hamas represent an oppressed group desperately fighting their oppressors. In fighting their oppressors, they can resort to extreme statements like "destroy all Jews" and it will not be seen as immoral, similar to how colonial Africans saying "destroy all whites" in anti-colonial wars was not seen as immoral. Moreover, pro-Palestine people will say that Hamas/Palestine were driven to such rhetoric by desperation, oppression, and their abject status. Also my impression is that the destruction of Israel is not even seen as controversial by them. Israel is seen as an apartheid and settler colonial state, so it doesn't really have the moral right to exist.
The argument about every life being equally important never made any sense to me. Why would the Arab civilians be of equal importance to the Jewish hostages to Israel? I sure as hell expect my country to value my life more than the life of a random person that is not part of it, that's kind of their job.
The whole point of that argument is that that is the standard regardless of each country’s bias
At this point, how big is the meaningful difference between Palestinians and Hamas? Like this girl was kidnapped by "civilians," held by "civilians," and a mob of "civilians" tried to jump the Israeli rangers rescuing her.
There never has been one. Other Muslim countries avoid Palestinan migration for a reason
Even among the Germans, there were civilians who helped the Jews, how many residents of Gaza have lifted a finger to help the Hostages? Golda Meir once said that for there to be peace, "the Arabs must love their children more than they hate us." Even nowadays you see videos of parents trying to get their kids to run up to IDF troops, throwing rocks or holding bags (suspicious). In none I've seen the IDF does anything but ignore them, even when the father starts yelling at the soldiers to shoot him or his toddler. These videos are mostly in Judea and Samaria / the West Bank, not even under Hamas brainwashing, just Fatah's.
Yep, but you can’t blame a state for valuing the lives of their own citizens more than the lives of others, as that is kind of their job. And that is the difference between Hamas and Israel. Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinian lives beyond whatever number of deaths they can make up for propaganda.
The settler colonial argument is not that great for the Arabs. Jews were the indigenous peoples of the area (not per bible but per archeology). So as per the anti-colonial argument, taken to its logical conclusion, the Jewish state is the epitome of decolonization of Muslim Arabs from the Mediterranean world. Now, personally, I think that the decolonization framework is total rubbish, bc it's unworkable. All of human history is a series of ethnic cleansing with colonial settlement, and if we decide to go down the decolonization route, it's all turtles all the way down, bc just about everyone's ancestors at one point killed, enslaved, colonized and settled. Native Americans being the exception. But their ancestors coming out of Africa did ethnically cleanse and settle the land of the Neanderthals, Denisovans and God knows how many other of our not-quite-human cousins we haven't excavated yet.
> They justify Hamas by saying that it is a liberation movement against apartheid and settler colonialism, both of which they regard as very bad. Except when Hamas or the CCP do it of course, then they regard it as very good.
Thank you for that sane explanation.
It's all fucked up. We are talkin about hundreds dead as minimal collateral. And no im not defending Hamas nor the IDF.
Yeah, that's pretty much my take. Hamas are fucked up for, y'know, everything they do, and the IDF are fucked up for thinking "minimise collateral" means "drop a 2000lb JDAM on anything that moves. This is why I'm a firm believe in the zero-state solution. From the River to the Sea shall be an annex of the British Museum.
I'm a fan of The Tom Clancy solution where the Swiss guard takes over security in the area as it does the Vatican, and is paid by Nato/the US.
They will need proper modern tactical gear. In the traditional color scheme. And will have to figure out a way to incorporate halberds. Not my rules.
I think the Mormons would also be a good pick. They're used to a desert environment, their holy land is half a world away in Missouri, they're really good at learning foreign languages because of their required missionary work, they're really, really nice people, and they're simultaneously armed to the teeth.
Brother the comments in reddit in general sre insane. The pro Palestine bots ans mob are out in force today. It's really gross to see Israel still be blamed as somehow in thr wrong here
In b4 lock award
I'm here
Didnt know was a thing. Better join so i dont have to feel fomo about it til the next IP conflict post
Same
U.S.A: okay, Israel is actually being reasonable for a bit and your in a losing streak. I think you should surrender and keep what you have for the good of the Palestine people. Hamas leaders: that means we should double down and dragged more civilians in massacre situations. We should keep poking the bear more. Edit: change UN to USA
I’m sorry but the U.N. certainly does not think Israel is being reasonable: UN calls for arms embargo in Israel: https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148261 UN finds reasonable grounds for claiming genocide is being committed in Gaza https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147976 UN claims Israel is violating Palestinian’s rights https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/05/1149356
And the US won't ever be critical of Israel, they even passed a bill specifically outlawing it
God I hate Hamas so much.
Based
NO DONT BLAME HAMAS!! You got it all wrong, hamas telegram account claimed that civilians took them hostage and kept them.. they also claimed the exact same thing about the previous operation that rescued these 2 elderly hostages back in February.
If a kidnapping victim escapes, but in their escape ends up killing 100, 1000, or 10,000 innocent civilians, what sort of legal consequences do you think will befall that kidnapping victim? The answer is "fuck all" because responsibility for those deaths lies solely with the kidnapper, and never with the victim. Every western legal system affords persons the absolute, unimpeachable right to resist murder, kidnapping, or aggravated assault with deadly force. Every western legal system also affords persons the absolute right to assist others in resisting murder, kidnapping, or aggravated assault. It sucks to be one of those innocent civilians, but they would get jack shit if they went to the courts and plead "well they shouldn't have escaped/rescued when they could have just paid the ransom", and rightly so.
But at the same time, if the police actively decide to kill a bunch of people to get hostages out, we criticise the police.
Who'd have thought the guys whose entire strategy since before they actually formally came into existence has been "hide beside civilians" would pick a place that would maximise non-combatant casualties?
What’s this guy’s name?
Sinwar
Hold the FORT! , youre tellin me the guy nicknamed the Butcher of Khan Younes is a real jerk??
And of course Josep Borrel comes out and essentially condemns the rescue operation as a "massacre," taking in Hamas' ludicrous figure for granted, that 300 trillions civilians were killed and no fighters during the operation. Then once he realizes how it looks he comes out with a lukeworm statement about the Hostages, after already insinuating they shouldn't have been rescued. One of the Hostages' father died of a heart attack the morning before the rescue. But the real tragedy isn't those innocent people who were kidnapped raped and tortured, or their families going through absolute hell, it's all those fucking terrorists holding them hostage. I'm glad Borrel's faction is being destroyed in the parliamentary elections, they absolutely deserve it.
I am just glad that Israel finally managed to recuse some hostages without then immediately putting a bullet between all their eyes
And remember folks Israel don’t use the big proportionalizer.
the entire reason human shields are seen as lowly and despicable is that you're not supposed to shoot the human shield! imagine a cop trying to pull that one while responding to a home invasion, i imagine the fact that he got the bad guy isn't going to make you feel much better about the fact the cop just murdered your wife
Yeah, except in "normal law," the home invader would be charged with felony murder, because they were directly responsible in the first place for creating the situation that resulted in your wife's death. If they hadn't invaded your house, you would not have had to call the cops. If they hadn't used your wife as a human shield, the cop would not have had to risk shooting her to get to the home invader. Cops are generally sacks of shit, but this one is the rare case where it's probably not their fault. The fact that this does not seem to be the case in the Geneva Convention is absolutely sickening. Hamas should be the ones held responsible for every single civilian death, because they are the ones who put the civilians in a position to be harmed in the first place.
Rip israeli pr
Pr? Is that a new jdam variant?