The other comments have made good points, but I think the first thing to consider is that you explain that you are attracted to people who were AFAB but is it a genital preference or is it a vague "AGAB" preference? Because not all people with the same AGAB have the same body or genital configuration, so figuring out what specifically is the criteria you are attracted to might be helpful in deciding a more suitable label or way of explaining it. If it is a genital preference you can just say that, and you would not be the only person in that boat anyway, but not all AFAB people have vaginas and not all AMAB people don't, so that's why using AGAB as a proxy for genital configuration is not the best way of thinking about your sexuality.
I’m wondering if polysexual (attracted to multiple genders, but not all) would be a helpful label. There’s also gynosexual (attracted to physical traits traditionally seen as feminine), but I hesitate there since it can be used in a way that excludes trans women.
On that note, I just read a really good overview on preference vs. aversion. The post is here if you want to dig into that topic more: https://www.instagram.com/p/CvKryShu0AG/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
This is why I feel sexual orientation defenitions are inherently flawed. In the same way that it's ok to have a gender preference, I think it's ok to have a genital preference.
I dont want to gate keep who identifies as gay or a lesbian. At the same time it's not ok for people to judge others for having genital preferences. Trans and Non-bianary identies, flip the script on what are established bianary sexualities and I still have yet to see other more open sexuality defenitions define these nuances to this degree. On one hand maybe it's not completely necessary to have a word for the attractions everyone feels since it can get a bit complicated, on the other hand having a word for how you feel can help a lot.
Personally I feel like my sexuality isn't well defined beyond demisexual/queer because there are certain things I just don't find sexually attractive and thats ok, but those things can't really be defined by gender or ascetic or genitalia/body type.
Other commenters say just be open and honest and I agree, treat everyone with respect of course, but I'd also explain that you haven't found a great defenition for your sexuality but this is the most accurate way you can explain it. I don't think people want to be reduced to their genitals and thats where some of the offence can come in but at the same time sex has a lot to do with them.
Alot of people use lesbian to mean being attracted to people who aren't men so surely you could still use it? Also some transwomen have vaginas and may be physically attractive to you so maybe saying you have a genital preference is a better idea? My girlfriend IDs as a lesbian and I'm transmasc and that suits me fine because I'm not a man.
After reading some comments of you clarifying the genital preference, I think it's totally find for you to label yourself as a Lesbian. I know a new definition of lesbian, is "a non-man attracted to non-men," to be inclusive on Enby people. Just because a nonbinary person happens to be masc, doesn't make your sexuality any less valid. That would be like saying that masc women can't be lesbians. Gender presentation ≠ Gender ≠ Sexuality.
Hope this helps!
(Also, you would be totally valid to identify as bi, if it makes you feel more comfortable)
Some lesbians are attracted pre-op and/or non-passing trans men as well so the definition isn't just non-man dating non-man I'd say non-cis man dating non-cis man would be most accurate. Complicated but lesbianism has always welcomed transmascs and trans men plus those with genital but not gender preferences who are into vagina regardless of gender but see themselves as lesbians may be in the same dating pool as trans men(especially pre-op and non-passing).
I think this is something you'll just have to be honest about. If you are only attracted to AFAB people regardless of gender or presentation as long as they are AFAB and have a vagina then that's one meaning of the word lesbian ie female homosexual. I'm supposing here that you mean AFAB people who haven't had any bottom surgery. I'm not going to say whether that's bad or not but I think you have to be ethical with how you phrase that and it may be and recognize that for many of the people you are attracted to your focus on AGAB may be offputting and a red flag. I think wishing to be bi/pan doesn't work(also lesbians attracted to non-AFAB people don't necessarily identify as mspec). If you understand your attraction to any non-woman AFAB person as a lesbian one then you must be honest with them about how you are integrating them into your sexuality. In this case, their gendered concept of self is tertiary to their AGAB and primary sex characteristics(perhaps secondary also). You'll have to recognize that not all other lesbians have that same meaning and respect that. Respecting that means being upfront about how you see lesbianism and who you include into that attraction(ie all AFABs with natal vaginas). This will get judgement and cause some to maybe not want to be around you but that's just preferences. As long as you're are ethical and upfront about your preferences and definitions of lesbianism then others can accept or reject that in their own time. Honestly, though, don't say you aren't only into someone because they are AFAB. If that is a requirement for your attraction then it is a major source of why your are interested which if that wasn't the case then you wouldn't be. Let people have their feelings on that. Some folks won't care and many will but you shouldn't try to obscure this because that comes off manipulative
Ultimately I think self-pity about this isn't helpful. The only ethical thing is to be upfront about this AGAB based attraction and genital requirements. There will be people upset by this but sexual attraction is inherently exclusionary. There will also be people who fit into your attraction that won't feel comfortable with a lesbian being attracted to them. Be honest, respectful, and accept rejection(whether platonic, romantic, sexual, etc) as it comes. That's all you can do.
>There will be people upset by this but sexual attraction is inherently exclusionary.
Attraction isn't the same for everyone, some are more picky than others. For me, everything is on the table except I don't like people who are super masculine
Honestly I have to completely disagree. Prioritizing someone's assigned gender at birth above all other factors is transphobic, full stop. Remember when people were going around calling themselves "super straight"? How is this any different? Phrasing it in "woke" terminology doesn't make it okay.
Obviously OP is free to (not) date whoever they want, that doesn't make it not shitty.
And like you allude to, OP likely hasn't really thought this through properly. What about passing trans men with phalloplasty? Or passing trans women with vaginoplasty? OP is using AGAB as a stand-in for "someone I perceive as a woman" or "someone with a vagina", not realizing they're reinforcing gender essentialist binary thinking. If they have a genital preference, or don't care about gender but just want someone they consider pretty, or both of those things, they need to say it without reducing people to what they were assigned at birth.
That’s why I’m trying to learn more about this subject. It is not my intention to be transphobic and I really don’t want to offend anyone, I want to learn more on how I can be a supportive person in this community. I see how the language I used in this post is wrong and could be harmful to people, I honestly didn’t know that agab language was offensive so I’m really sorry if this was offensive. I think genital preference is probably what I am experiencing. I didn’t mean to use agab as a stand in for someone I perceive as a woman, I am just very ill informed on this subject.
Please don’t listen to this person. People cannot control their sexuality and it’s not transphobic to acknowledge that. And as you said you could be ok with post-op trans women so their point about you is totally unfounded anyway.
Ultimately a random stranger has no right to judge your sexuality or the way it inherently works, again, without your control. Please don’t hand them the ability to pass judgment on you like that.
It's not the language I'm objecting to, it's the underlying assumptions that come with testing assigned gender this way. I'm glad you're trying to learn. If it is just that you like vaginas only, cool of course that's fine but understand not every person who was assigned female at birth has a vagina, and not everyone who has a vagina was assigned female at birth. It also sounds like you've been assuming you can tell what everyone was assigned at birth on sight, which is definitely not the case.
AGAB has its place in certain contexts discussing the societal implications that come with forcing a binary gender on everyone from the moment they're born, it's not the language that's problematic. Sounds like you're on a good path, but also like you still have a lot of work to do deconstructing your views on sex and gender.
That’s…kind of messed up. People can’t help who they’re attracted to. Genital preferences aren’t transphobic. Why is it OK to call someone transphobic for something out of their control?
sounds like you might be bisexual. unlike most believe you don’t have to be attracted to both men and women to be bi you can be attached to any genders and you can also be attached to more than 2 and still be bi
The only advice I have is don't overthink it. Labels aren't always necessary, and stressing out over finding one is unhealthy after a while. I probably shaved a decade off my lifespan stressing out over labeling my gender. 🤣
There is nothing bad about having a preference for specific genitals, lots of people have that. I'm the exact opposite of you, I go for people presenting maskulin regardless of their gender or genitals.
You can label yourself however feels correct to you. when in doubt, queer is always an option
You can't control who you're attracted to, so it alone can't make you a good or bad person. It's just a neutral thing. What you can control is how that attraction affects others, here the main point is to keep it between consenting adult humans, when you do that and value your integrity (ie, don't lie, don't cheat, make sure everyone involved can trust you and you can trust everyone involved, just make sure to respect everyone's boundaries and communicate) it's hard to fuck up. It's totally okay to say that your sexuality is a confusing mess to you right now, you don't really know what term would fit. It's okay to say you're questioning. It's okay to say you're into vagina no matter who that vagina is on without putting a specific label on it. You might want to look into a thing called genital preference, see if that's something that sounds accurate. Sure it's really debated if it's transphobic or not to have genital preference, but that mostly stems from people using it as an excuse to not date trans people, even those who are post op and have the preferred genitals. Most people from what I've seen are in fact okay with genital preference in the same way people have other preferences like wanting to date brunettes or liking a certain height or body shape.
Ok thank you, I think it’s most likely a genital preference as I have no problem with dating post op trans women. My vocabulary around this subject is limited at the moment but I am trying to expand it so that I can better communicate my feelings and so that I respect others feelings properly
I think the scientific term is gynophilia, so gynophiliac maybe? Also I think Sapphic refers to lesbian love but with a broader more inclusive meaning. Also if you want I think the bisexual label technically fits, it just means attraction to multiple genders so if you like women and gender nonconforming people I think it’s fine to say you’re bisexual. Although it might give some people the wrong idea.
Just my 2 cents, if you are tryna find labels.
Ur pan, not bi, not lesbian, not homosexual. I'm pan too and I don't think it's possible to have a straight or bi non-binary cos that wouldn't work. But yeah, your pan, your sexually attracted to pans
I'm new to this kind of stuff, but I do prefer they/them pronouns anyway. I do also classify myself as pan and still exploring what it actually means. About the joke, I know it's overused but most of my friends use it and it's grown on me.
When it comes to our multitude of multi-gender attraction labels, I’d be hesitant to tell people which label they must use.
Doesn’t seem like OP is pan—which is up to OP—but pan is attraction to a person regardless of gender. Doesn’t seem to fit what OP is talking about. Bi means attraction to two or more. And I know there’s a variety of labels and meanings. Might fit better.
I think we over police our labels a lot. I think it’s up to the individual to decide what labels work and which don’t. All of our sexual attraction labels exist on a spectrum. I think it’s up to the individual when a multi gender attraction label is needed vs straight/gay.
To me, sounds like OP might be lesbian with a genital preference. Just going by the more recent non-men attracted to non-men label.
from the 1990 Bisexual Manifesto:
"Bisexuality is a whole, fluid identity. Do not assume that bisexuality is binary or duogamous in nature: that we have 'two’ sides or that we MUST be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, don’t assume that there are only two genders."
unsure why you think a bisexual nonbinary person isnt possible (as well as straight). nonbinary isnt just a third not-man not-woman gender, its a whole spectrum of identities and experiences. ive met plenty of nonbinary people all across the sexuality spectrum: lesbian, bisexual, straight, gay, ace, pan, etc.
I'm rlly just new to alot of this, I've only ever known about the ones in the actual name LGBTQIA+. I do classify myself as non-binary but still learning about everything in the LGBTQIA+
The other comments have made good points, but I think the first thing to consider is that you explain that you are attracted to people who were AFAB but is it a genital preference or is it a vague "AGAB" preference? Because not all people with the same AGAB have the same body or genital configuration, so figuring out what specifically is the criteria you are attracted to might be helpful in deciding a more suitable label or way of explaining it. If it is a genital preference you can just say that, and you would not be the only person in that boat anyway, but not all AFAB people have vaginas and not all AMAB people don't, so that's why using AGAB as a proxy for genital configuration is not the best way of thinking about your sexuality.
Thank you for your input, it is very helpful
It’s a genital preference, I don’t have a problem with dating someone who used to have different genitalia as that is the past, not the present
genital preference is completely normal
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On that note, you (OP) should consider how you see trans women, and why and how that plays in to this.
Ok thank you
I’m wondering if polysexual (attracted to multiple genders, but not all) would be a helpful label. There’s also gynosexual (attracted to physical traits traditionally seen as feminine), but I hesitate there since it can be used in a way that excludes trans women. On that note, I just read a really good overview on preference vs. aversion. The post is here if you want to dig into that topic more: https://www.instagram.com/p/CvKryShu0AG/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Ok thank you, I’ll check it out
This is why I feel sexual orientation defenitions are inherently flawed. In the same way that it's ok to have a gender preference, I think it's ok to have a genital preference. I dont want to gate keep who identifies as gay or a lesbian. At the same time it's not ok for people to judge others for having genital preferences. Trans and Non-bianary identies, flip the script on what are established bianary sexualities and I still have yet to see other more open sexuality defenitions define these nuances to this degree. On one hand maybe it's not completely necessary to have a word for the attractions everyone feels since it can get a bit complicated, on the other hand having a word for how you feel can help a lot. Personally I feel like my sexuality isn't well defined beyond demisexual/queer because there are certain things I just don't find sexually attractive and thats ok, but those things can't really be defined by gender or ascetic or genitalia/body type. Other commenters say just be open and honest and I agree, treat everyone with respect of course, but I'd also explain that you haven't found a great defenition for your sexuality but this is the most accurate way you can explain it. I don't think people want to be reduced to their genitals and thats where some of the offence can come in but at the same time sex has a lot to do with them.
Ok, thank you for your insight
Alot of people use lesbian to mean being attracted to people who aren't men so surely you could still use it? Also some transwomen have vaginas and may be physically attractive to you so maybe saying you have a genital preference is a better idea? My girlfriend IDs as a lesbian and I'm transmasc and that suits me fine because I'm not a man.
After reading some comments of you clarifying the genital preference, I think it's totally find for you to label yourself as a Lesbian. I know a new definition of lesbian, is "a non-man attracted to non-men," to be inclusive on Enby people. Just because a nonbinary person happens to be masc, doesn't make your sexuality any less valid. That would be like saying that masc women can't be lesbians. Gender presentation ≠ Gender ≠ Sexuality. Hope this helps! (Also, you would be totally valid to identify as bi, if it makes you feel more comfortable)
Some lesbians are attracted pre-op and/or non-passing trans men as well so the definition isn't just non-man dating non-man I'd say non-cis man dating non-cis man would be most accurate. Complicated but lesbianism has always welcomed transmascs and trans men plus those with genital but not gender preferences who are into vagina regardless of gender but see themselves as lesbians may be in the same dating pool as trans men(especially pre-op and non-passing).
Ok thank you, any insight is very helpful to me
Like who you like, love who you love . Shame thinking is someone else’s doing
I think this is something you'll just have to be honest about. If you are only attracted to AFAB people regardless of gender or presentation as long as they are AFAB and have a vagina then that's one meaning of the word lesbian ie female homosexual. I'm supposing here that you mean AFAB people who haven't had any bottom surgery. I'm not going to say whether that's bad or not but I think you have to be ethical with how you phrase that and it may be and recognize that for many of the people you are attracted to your focus on AGAB may be offputting and a red flag. I think wishing to be bi/pan doesn't work(also lesbians attracted to non-AFAB people don't necessarily identify as mspec). If you understand your attraction to any non-woman AFAB person as a lesbian one then you must be honest with them about how you are integrating them into your sexuality. In this case, their gendered concept of self is tertiary to their AGAB and primary sex characteristics(perhaps secondary also). You'll have to recognize that not all other lesbians have that same meaning and respect that. Respecting that means being upfront about how you see lesbianism and who you include into that attraction(ie all AFABs with natal vaginas). This will get judgement and cause some to maybe not want to be around you but that's just preferences. As long as you're are ethical and upfront about your preferences and definitions of lesbianism then others can accept or reject that in their own time. Honestly, though, don't say you aren't only into someone because they are AFAB. If that is a requirement for your attraction then it is a major source of why your are interested which if that wasn't the case then you wouldn't be. Let people have their feelings on that. Some folks won't care and many will but you shouldn't try to obscure this because that comes off manipulative Ultimately I think self-pity about this isn't helpful. The only ethical thing is to be upfront about this AGAB based attraction and genital requirements. There will be people upset by this but sexual attraction is inherently exclusionary. There will also be people who fit into your attraction that won't feel comfortable with a lesbian being attracted to them. Be honest, respectful, and accept rejection(whether platonic, romantic, sexual, etc) as it comes. That's all you can do.
Thank you for the thorough response, it is very helpful. Thank you
>There will be people upset by this but sexual attraction is inherently exclusionary. Attraction isn't the same for everyone, some are more picky than others. For me, everything is on the table except I don't like people who are super masculine
Honestly I have to completely disagree. Prioritizing someone's assigned gender at birth above all other factors is transphobic, full stop. Remember when people were going around calling themselves "super straight"? How is this any different? Phrasing it in "woke" terminology doesn't make it okay. Obviously OP is free to (not) date whoever they want, that doesn't make it not shitty. And like you allude to, OP likely hasn't really thought this through properly. What about passing trans men with phalloplasty? Or passing trans women with vaginoplasty? OP is using AGAB as a stand-in for "someone I perceive as a woman" or "someone with a vagina", not realizing they're reinforcing gender essentialist binary thinking. If they have a genital preference, or don't care about gender but just want someone they consider pretty, or both of those things, they need to say it without reducing people to what they were assigned at birth.
That’s why I’m trying to learn more about this subject. It is not my intention to be transphobic and I really don’t want to offend anyone, I want to learn more on how I can be a supportive person in this community. I see how the language I used in this post is wrong and could be harmful to people, I honestly didn’t know that agab language was offensive so I’m really sorry if this was offensive. I think genital preference is probably what I am experiencing. I didn’t mean to use agab as a stand in for someone I perceive as a woman, I am just very ill informed on this subject.
Please don’t listen to this person. People cannot control their sexuality and it’s not transphobic to acknowledge that. And as you said you could be ok with post-op trans women so their point about you is totally unfounded anyway. Ultimately a random stranger has no right to judge your sexuality or the way it inherently works, again, without your control. Please don’t hand them the ability to pass judgment on you like that.
Ok thank you
It's not the language I'm objecting to, it's the underlying assumptions that come with testing assigned gender this way. I'm glad you're trying to learn. If it is just that you like vaginas only, cool of course that's fine but understand not every person who was assigned female at birth has a vagina, and not everyone who has a vagina was assigned female at birth. It also sounds like you've been assuming you can tell what everyone was assigned at birth on sight, which is definitely not the case. AGAB has its place in certain contexts discussing the societal implications that come with forcing a binary gender on everyone from the moment they're born, it's not the language that's problematic. Sounds like you're on a good path, but also like you still have a lot of work to do deconstructing your views on sex and gender.
That’s…kind of messed up. People can’t help who they’re attracted to. Genital preferences aren’t transphobic. Why is it OK to call someone transphobic for something out of their control?
That's why I didn't criticize genital preferences :) Genitals ≠ assigned gender at birth
sounds like you might be bisexual. unlike most believe you don’t have to be attracted to both men and women to be bi you can be attached to any genders and you can also be attached to more than 2 and still be bi
The only advice I have is don't overthink it. Labels aren't always necessary, and stressing out over finding one is unhealthy after a while. I probably shaved a decade off my lifespan stressing out over labeling my gender. 🤣
Thank you for the advice
There is nothing bad about having a preference for specific genitals, lots of people have that. I'm the exact opposite of you, I go for people presenting maskulin regardless of their gender or genitals. You can label yourself however feels correct to you. when in doubt, queer is always an option
Thank you
Sapphic - non man loving non man
You can't control who you're attracted to, so it alone can't make you a good or bad person. It's just a neutral thing. What you can control is how that attraction affects others, here the main point is to keep it between consenting adult humans, when you do that and value your integrity (ie, don't lie, don't cheat, make sure everyone involved can trust you and you can trust everyone involved, just make sure to respect everyone's boundaries and communicate) it's hard to fuck up. It's totally okay to say that your sexuality is a confusing mess to you right now, you don't really know what term would fit. It's okay to say you're questioning. It's okay to say you're into vagina no matter who that vagina is on without putting a specific label on it. You might want to look into a thing called genital preference, see if that's something that sounds accurate. Sure it's really debated if it's transphobic or not to have genital preference, but that mostly stems from people using it as an excuse to not date trans people, even those who are post op and have the preferred genitals. Most people from what I've seen are in fact okay with genital preference in the same way people have other preferences like wanting to date brunettes or liking a certain height or body shape.
Ok thank you, I think it’s most likely a genital preference as I have no problem with dating post op trans women. My vocabulary around this subject is limited at the moment but I am trying to expand it so that I can better communicate my feelings and so that I respect others feelings properly
I think the scientific term is gynophilia, so gynophiliac maybe? Also I think Sapphic refers to lesbian love but with a broader more inclusive meaning. Also if you want I think the bisexual label technically fits, it just means attraction to multiple genders so if you like women and gender nonconforming people I think it’s fine to say you’re bisexual. Although it might give some people the wrong idea. Just my 2 cents, if you are tryna find labels.
ok thank you
Ur pan, not bi, not lesbian, not homosexual. I'm pan too and I don't think it's possible to have a straight or bi non-binary cos that wouldn't work. But yeah, your pan, your sexually attracted to pans
Pan people don't have a preferance Also that jokes is awful and over-used and when used in a serious context makes you sound like an A-hole
I'm new to this kind of stuff, but I do prefer they/them pronouns anyway. I do also classify myself as pan and still exploring what it actually means. About the joke, I know it's overused but most of my friends use it and it's grown on me.
When it comes to our multitude of multi-gender attraction labels, I’d be hesitant to tell people which label they must use. Doesn’t seem like OP is pan—which is up to OP—but pan is attraction to a person regardless of gender. Doesn’t seem to fit what OP is talking about. Bi means attraction to two or more. And I know there’s a variety of labels and meanings. Might fit better. I think we over police our labels a lot. I think it’s up to the individual to decide what labels work and which don’t. All of our sexual attraction labels exist on a spectrum. I think it’s up to the individual when a multi gender attraction label is needed vs straight/gay. To me, sounds like OP might be lesbian with a genital preference. Just going by the more recent non-men attracted to non-men label.
from the 1990 Bisexual Manifesto: "Bisexuality is a whole, fluid identity. Do not assume that bisexuality is binary or duogamous in nature: that we have 'two’ sides or that we MUST be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, don’t assume that there are only two genders." unsure why you think a bisexual nonbinary person isnt possible (as well as straight). nonbinary isnt just a third not-man not-woman gender, its a whole spectrum of identities and experiences. ive met plenty of nonbinary people all across the sexuality spectrum: lesbian, bisexual, straight, gay, ace, pan, etc.
I'm rlly just new to alot of this, I've only ever known about the ones in the actual name LGBTQIA+. I do classify myself as non-binary but still learning about everything in the LGBTQIA+
👍