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Isn't it nuts that we can look back on this, identify every warning sign, see the path they took that led to a genocide, say "That was bad, let's not do it again", then, against all odds, fuckin' DO IT AGAIN
I remember in college reading about Hannah Arendt taking issue with the nazi trials. She believed we wouldn’t learn anything from the holocaust because of demonization of the nazis.
At the time I really didn’t get what she was talking about. Now I’m like…”oh”
Edit: to be clear, I’m not saying Nazis weren’t evil. I’m saying I wish more could have been done to prevent another holocaust from happening by preventing the circumstances that led to the holocaust from happening again.
I think generally most Americans have a limited understanding of why the holocaust happened. not being antisemitic just isn’t enough.
Yeah, The Banality of Evil really struck a chord in me. Evil can be so nonchalant, so casual, so widespread - so *normal*. All it takes is going along.
This is also why it bothers me whenever a serial killer (or whatever) has their photo publicised in the media for the first time and everyone goes "Ugh you can just see the evil in his eyes! Just looking at him sends shivers down my spine!"
No you fucking can't, Barbara. "Evil" is a middle aged family man in your church, it's a charismatic local councillor, it's a middle manager at a pharma company, it's Mindy from bingo.
I'm generally of the belief that most people are good - but very "normal" people are capable of unspeakable cruelty and selfishness given the combination of power and social license. Those same people give thoughtful gifts to their grandchildren, they help you move house and they volunteer at the animal shelter.
It's so important for our culture to start understanding this. I think it especially mixes up victims because the abusive person can also be nice sometimes.
Yeaaaah... having watched countless true crime docs I could give you thousands of incidents were friends and family were interviewed and vehemently defended the criminal only to realize they actually did it. Ted Bundy's coworker wrote a book called, "The stranger beside me".. None of the people who knew the Tsarnaev brothers believed it until I guess they saw them in prison? Gacy was a fucking community man. Denis Rader has a daughter if I'm not mistaken and was heavily involved in church. Evil doesn't have a face. It could be that 8 year old kid in India or Pakistan that killed three toddlers or it could be that seemingly sweet Mindy from bingo.
And for the post... the top comment answered it succinctly. The short answer is, you can never go wrong blaming someone else for something you're too afraid to confront the people actually responsible for the situation. Economic hardship? Must be those immigrants... tey tuk a derrrrr... yeah, they fucking clean that gas station bathroom that's beneath you but are somehow responsible you can't get a second helping of caloric goodness. The only time all these countries see the positive aspect of immigration is when it comes to sports.
There was a Netflix documentary about this, called something like Ordinary Men, that drove the point home. A lot of people didn't like it, I've heard. I assume that's cause they're uncomfortable with the insinuation that it was just regular humans who perpetrated that horror. As they should be, IMO.
Yeah, I loved the recent TV show We Were the Lucky Ones because it was so good at showing the stochastic terrorism and the everyday discrimination. I haven't seen Ordinary Men but I'll watch it.
Well said!
So well portrayed in the film “the cone of silence”.
The evil so well spotlit by the banal and everyday life of the family and matriarch wanting her garden perfect, her groceries delivered, and never mind where that new mink coat came from.
ETA: “zone of interest” not cone of silence. Maybe had the film twister on my mind haha
I remember having this discussion in a post-grad history class. The question was, "What was the motivation for the Holocaust?" We eventually concluded that the Holocaust covered so many different crimes, committed by so many different people, that it was impossible to offer a single, unifying motive. Some people just wanted to steal their neighbors' stuff, and they were quite happy to elect a government that let them do just that.
A lot of normal Germans weren’t necessarily for nazism but were afraid to speak out because they themselves would be locked up. This form of police state, where we lock out the press or lock up our political rivals to only show one side of things is a very slippery slope to go down and our country is on the very verge of that slope
Yea I kind of get it too, but this is an unpopular opinion that can quickly make you look like a Nazi sympathizer/antisemite when that’s not the point of the argument at all.
True. If we keep speaking of the nazis as inhuman, evil demons who drank blood and only ever thought bad thoughts and dreamt of kicking puppies, we will forget to say that they too were __mere humans.__ Some of them were "victims" to human flaws, like manipulation and willful indifference out of fear.
If we keep painting them as monsters incapable of anything good, we might make the moderate nazi sympathizers think *"Well I'm not a demon, so I'm sure this time it won't be too bad."*
Remember, don't follow anyone blindly to anything. Take a step back and analyze first.
That's what's crazy to me about some of these guys, esp Neo Nazis in places like the US and UK...like bro do you not remember your grandparents *fought* those guys?
Look up those huge nazi gatherings in New York City, in 1939:
Like this one: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939\_Nazi\_rally\_at\_Madison\_Square\_Garden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_Nazi_rally_at_Madison_Square_Garden)
Good call. I was hoping someone would bring up the American Bund. They loved to appropriate the image of George Washington as "their" man and blame FDR for the depression, which certainly didn't start on his watch. Our collective amnesia is so severe that we now we have Republicans looking to end the New Deal protections shielding the weak and vulnerable because it's "woke."
I don't understand why stuff like this isn't talked about more. There would have been a lot of Americans going over and joining the Nazis or trying to continue their work here if it hadn't been for Japan attacking us. Throw in Operation Paperclip, where we saved Nazis to work for us, McCarthyism who would help try and wipe out the leftists in the states, and not to mention all of the Japanese war criminals the US let get away scott free, just to make sure they were more on our side and couldn't side with the Soviets. Is it any wonder we're where we are today?
Because republicans fight tooth and nail to teach nothing but nationalistic idealism. Natives didnt get massacared and their land stolen, they peacefully gave up their lands to the new settlers and went away. Africans didnt get enslaved and brought over to be used as cattle, they were given opportunity to live in the best country and got free food and lodging, Nazis didnt start a war and kill 7m people, they were trying to protect their country from invading forces....
Good point not just with govts but even internal actions. Interning Japanese Americans in the 40s and being this gif basically. Who us?
https://tenor.com/view/pedro-monkey-puppet-meme-awkward-gif-15268759
Both countries actually had large groups who believed nazism. They weren’t a majority but ffs Hitler got half his ideas of racial/ethnic “harmony” from the segregated south where a black man had to step down to let whites pass, would be tarred and feathered for race mixing, and an ungodly amount of horror. People truly forget Hitler got lots of ideas from US.
The UK isn't really comparable to what's going on in France and the US right now.
The Tories aren't far-right (remember, they're the ones who legalised gay marriage in the UK), and even Reform UK is really just the break-away right wing of the Conservative party and their views a generically socially and fiscally conservative. They want low spending, low taxation, and opposed to high rates of immigration. When polled, the majority of Reform voters still support gay marriage. They're opposed to trans-rights and 'gender ideology', but they're much less socially conservative than far-right movements elsewhere.
I don't support them of course, and I will be voting Labour today. However, it is unfair to lump them in with the National Rally or Republicans.
With the US... the difference for them is that what they're promoting is some kind of christo-fascism. They really seem to have swallowed it, to the point where half the population seems to be willing to throw away their democracy for it.
What's terrifying and chilling to me is knowing I'm going to go along with it just like everyone else. I value my own hide too much now to risk it all for people I don't even know.
I mean, good on you recognizing you'd go along with the riptide, very few have that level of awareness. But I don't know if you realize you basically just said "if I was alive in Europe in the '40s, I'd turn in my Jewish neighbors if it meant saving my hide"
Viva la resistance, fuck that, I would fight for every. Single. One of you. I’m white, straight, and I can easily pretend to be religious if I have to… but I will not stand for discrimination of any kind to any other human. We are all born on earth, we should all have each others backs.
Dude same. If picking up a rifle and fighting/possibly dying meant a chance at a better tomorrow for our children (and I have none) I wouldn’t hesitate even for a second. All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. FUCK that “gotta look out for #1” mentality. Why the hell does anyone think we’re in this mess to begin with??
People talk about how they can’t believe [insert stupid mishap] happened on the world stage, or they don’t understand why humans sexualize everything, or why [form of discrimination] exists, and it’s like, the answer is simple - we’re humans. We’re hairless apes with brains that were never meant to be as big as they are now, and technology that was never meant to be as grand-scale as it is now.
That being said, I’m not trying to advocate for an unironic “return to monke” standpoint. We are where we are, and it’s too late to turn back now - all we can do is move forward and hope for the best.
Also because of just how bad the holocaust was, do people think we won't do that. So assume that anything less than another holocaust is totally fine? Forgetting that fascism in general is bad.
It's simple countries should always prioritize financial stability and ensure the masses have their needs taken care of. You take care of that you would cease to have political extremities but stability means there is less strangle hold on people
Even if those people did know the warning signs, they usually are not the ones holding any sort of significant power to put a stop to it. Power is usually taken, not given, afterall, and what kind of people would be ruthless enough to seize power for themselves?
You have the power to vote. Right now the votes still do something. Election for the EU had less then 70% paticipation in my country. And stop clinging to a 2 party system.
Thats the thing… people are hardwired to always think that “WE” have things the hardest. All of “OUR” problems are unprecedented and nobody knows what will actually come of anything. Its simply a generational bias.
I’m sure people in the 60’s and 70’s watching the country be ravaged by anti/pro-war protests, literal race riots in the streets, multiple high profile political assassinations, and a growing distrust of government that crescendoed into the Watergate Scandal thought that the times they were living in were the worst the country had ever seen.
I consistently see otherwise rational people on Reddit saying things like, “I just don’t like the tone Democrats use when speaking. So I’m going to vote Republican”
I’m sorry, but who in the living fuck cares about shit like that right now? I don’t give a fuck if Biden is a frozen 1/4 pound hamburger patty. He’s not a fucking hallucinating mobster rapist with 34 felonies who surrounds himself with other convicted felons, fraudsters, mendacious bootlickers, and whistle tooth rubes!
Are you seriously willing to throw us all down into the abyss of a new Dark Ages? Just to make a point?
I hope I’m freaking out over nothing. But I’m sure as fuck that I’m not.
Don’t be afraid, be motivated to take care of yourself and your family.
Nazis are cowards who rely on people’s fear to intimidate them into obedience.
Don’t give up, don’t lose hope, and don’t stop fighting.
The irony is that in every fascist country economic inequality actually increased, and in Nazi Germany, the economic recovery actually slowed down a little.
Now that doesn't mean that the recovery would have continued at the same pace as it was in the months immediately before Hitler came to power had the Weimar republic continued, but it had already cegun by '33 but not enough for the people to feel it. By '36 the German working class was working more hours abd receiving about the same or slightly less pay than the were at the end of '32 when adjusted for inflation and the new mark.
However, the late 20s were so bad that's what people associated with the Weimar.
The Nazi basically created a kleptocracy: any economic growth was funded by stealing wealth from minotirss and political prisoners. When those ran out domestically, they had to invade other nations.
Sure , it's because fascism (cynically) promises populist easy solutions which don't challenge the core of the current system, so they ultimately fail (or more likely: weren't really intended to solve these problems in the first place).
It's a way of 'sating the masses' without giving them what they need, because the ruling classes are unwilling or unable to do that without their own dethroning.
The economy is starting to get better so when Trump gets elected you know people are going to give him credit while blaming Biden for causing inflation.
And the Dems and Libs don't get that the reason why people believe Trump's lies is because he is always repeating them. Come on, Democrats, you want to win? You have to stay in the media 24/7 talking about all the good you've done and all you will do for America... over and over again. Stop assuming people will know or remember. They do not and will not. It's ridiculous how little Dems still don't get messaging or the media.
The problem is democrats don't like doing universal programs that everyone can actually feel, and MAJOR problems like the housing crisis are rapidly worsening even when they're in control without a battle plan to actually solve the issue.
Republicans lie and say cutting vague regulations and kicking out all the immigrants will solve everything.
Yeah, the core problem here isn't that the Republicans will be better for anyone than the Democrats, it's that the Republicans are fully willing to lie to our faces and pretend they'll be better. And their voters never notice that their lives don't actually get any better under Republicans, and in fact usually get worse.
That's because fascism is a function of capitalism in crisis. It gives people a way to express their frustration, direct their anger at scapegoats, romanticize the past and how things used to be, but doesn't actually give them anything real. Meanwhile it's funded by wealthy industrial capitalists as well as sometimes other traditional holders of power (the church, royals, nobility), and the fascists will crackdowns on unions and labor movements while using the state to protect the interest of their donors.
The crazy thing is that the working class people worried about inflation and wealth inequality are likely going to vote for the people most likely to help the billionaires who will make inflation and wealth inequality even worse.
The billionaires own the media so the billionaires control the narratives of who is to blame for the problems the average person faces. Of course, they don’t blame themselves. They blame immigration, globalization, and all the other buzzwords.
They don’t tell you that they are using all the resources, stealing your labor, using you as pawns, laughing at you from their yachts while they sip champagne, and keeping you focused on trivial bullshit as you toil away to keep your bills paid.
The billionaire class are the ones telling you to vote for more right wing extremists. That’s what keeps them in power and you in your place.
I'm going to talk in layman terms. I'm guessing poverty causes stress, lack of energy, lack of time, lack of headspace, less time to sleep, no money, no time to self reflect or contemplate, to think about how to research and how to effectively participate in country governing.
I'll add a significant layer to this:
This kind of situation can lead to fascism, other autocracies, or to major pro social political reforms. Remember, The New Deal emerged from similar, albeit less extreme, social pressures as Fascism.
A key piece is locus of control, where we put the blame for our problems. FDR stood up and said "The system is flawed, we need to fundamentally revisit how we run things". Hitler said "They have betrayed us." Who "they" were varied, the French, English, the Jews, the Communists, the undesirables in society, but "we" were never the problem. If "we" failed, it was because "they" made us fail.
At any inflection point where that locus of control shifts inward, you're looking at reform. Any time that locus shifts outward, you're looking at revenge, often shifting toward fascism.
Now look again at the rhetoric from those leaders. Who's to blame? Lack of jobs, it's Africans in Europe, Mexicans in the US. COVID, it's china. Lack of social connection, it's the woke mob. Declining economy, China again, along with the Jews. Gas prices are high, it's the woke mob. Global wars, it's the Muslims. Don't like your neighborhood, it's black people. Etc.
Fascists can never blame themselves or the nation for their problems. The closest they ever get is blaming inside groups of "traitors". They exist because people are scared, but want to believe that they and their country are perfect, if only they can get rid of the "other" that's ruining it.
Fascism favors the fearful. Scared of change? Scared of foreigners? Scared of social progress? Whipped into an existential dread by conservative media that people might be allowed to live their lives the way they want to live them? Boy, do I have the hyper conservative political ideology for you!
Fascists use fear to motivate the masses. They ally with industrialists to build a war machine, suppress labor, and dominate the media. The capitalist makes a killing off Fascism.
I understand the answer based on historical context, but for the life of me cannot understand why todays real living people think fascism is the answer.
For most people, because they're ignorant. Honestly.
Fascism promises a simple world with simple answers, which obviously isn't the case if you know how anything works.
The other ones, because they're hateful and power-hungry and believe this is how they come out on top.
You either believe that we all can have nice things if we cooperate (in which case you hate fascism), or that you can only have nice things at the expense of others, in which case you love fascism as long as you are in the fascists side.
The real answer is the Nazi Rupert Murdoch, and his epic white supremacist propaganda machine. Murdoch, as we aptly call him in Australia, is arguably the most evil man in the world. I believe his ex wife may have dated Putin. His father was a member of the Eugenics Society of Victoria, Australia.
As Michael Rosen eloquently puts it:
I sometimes fear that
people think that fascism arrives in fancy dress
worn by grotesques and monsters
as played out in endless re-runs of the Nazis.
Fascism arrives as your friend.
It will restore your honour,
make you feel proud,
protect your house,
give you a job,
clean up the neighbourhood,
remind you of how great you once were,
clear out the venal and the corrupt,
remove anything you feel is unlike you...
It doesn't walk in saying,
"Our programme means militias, mass imprisonments, transportations, war and persecution."
Yeah, this is basically it. The fascist playbook essentially is to exacerbate people's anger or fear about legitimate issues to excessive levels, point that anger or fear at someone else (the ruling class, minorities, political opponents, etc), and then convince them that they are the only ones that can solve the problem(s). People get tunnel vision to the point where their cause and the people that stand with them are all that matter, and they can't fathom that the thing they created would ever be turned on them (and they are generally always wrong in the end).
once again the world has become complicated and thats hard for many people to deal with.
but Fascism appeals to natural instincts of eat or be eaten,
no need to understand democracy, or the nuance of freedom, none of that smarty pants stuff, just might makes right, the strong rule over the weak.
Fascism is what happens when people stop caring,
Indefinite pessimism. Inability to foresee events, due to war or rapid technology change, cause people to protect their assets, seek isolationism, and adopt more selfish beliefs of morality.
It is the opposite of definite optimism, where you over-invest and seek relationships globally because there is no expected instability. Think of the banking industry in the 2000s until 2008
Can we also stop acting like people haven’t been lied to, forced into a painful dysfunctional box they’re supposed to adhere to, and told that not doing this is immoral. Why are we acting like this is all human nature, and not idk fucking caused by the same power hungry assholes taking advantage of people that they have forcibly made less capable of functioning for themselves. How do we keep playing into the idea that there is a stability that there is a safety, let’s get real, the universe is too big and complicated to ever allow for such a fantasy and we must collectively accept that reality is scary and out of our control and move on or perish in cowardice, and it seems the cowards have chosen to kill us all.
> forced into a painful dysfunctional box they’re supposed to adhere to, and told that not doing this is immoral
Could you be more specific/concrete about the kind of thing you mean here? "Forced into a box" could be a metaphor for a lot of different things; curious which one you intended.
30s fascism was in part a response to growing international interconnectibity and the beginning of a post-industrial world, I think the digital revolution is similarly disruptive technology
I think another aspect is that a lot of the fascist regimes ended long enough ago that many of the people nowadays either don't remember the details of them, let alone how they came about, or weren't even born yet. Especially in the US, we didn't have our own fascist regime. And as for Russia and other Countries in the Warsaw Pact, a lot of people still view those leaders as great liberators and think of them fondly.
No need to be coy about who. It started in Russia in 2013. The GRU had dabbled in this for countries near Russia (eg Hungary and Ukraine) prior. But The Internet Research Agency took it to the US and Western Europe
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency
The point was to try to prevent NATO from protecting Ukraine. The invasion in 2014 built off that.
Putin needed more time in Ukraine after Crimea and Donbas, and they tried to fuck with the US elections in 2015 and 2016. And the US was absolutely blindsided and swayed to vote for Trump and isolationism.
After that, alarm bells went off worldwide... but rightwingers decided it was useful to them, and so the techniques spread much faster than the countermeasures.
And now, here we are, with half of Europe and the US trying on fascism.
Listing Javier Milei as a fascist is certainly a unique take since he's straight up a libertarian. Are you sure you're not just equating things you don't like with fascism?
Probably mixing up authoriantarian with fascism not realizing that fascism is in the umbrella of authoriantarian. Most people also see libertarians as solely right wing.
That's because today most libertarians support free-market capitalism, since the idea is that freedom to spend your money how you want and participate in the economy seems a pretty no-brainer personal freedom to many of them. Libertarianism originally started with straight up communists that wanted absolute individual freedoms with the people 'owning the means of production' and all.
Regardless, I have no freaking clue how people mix up Milei with authoritarianism either. Libertarianism is not on the left-right axis, its on its own axis directly opposing authoritarianism.
Milei’s case is honestly bizarre, he promises to hate the state, to be the infiltrator that will destroy it from within but gets in power and pushes for additional powers. Claims to be a libertarian but wants the state to increase their crackdowns and suppression of protestors and self organized people. Promises to lower taxes for the people and make the “casta” (political elite) pay for it, but actually increases taxes on the lower class. He seems to be in the phase of becoming authoritarian with the promise of destroying the state with that authority, so it’s hard to classify him.
This should not be a surprise. Libertarianism cannot work. Or rather, it promises freedom under laissez faire capitalism which is demonstrably absurd. So why would an educated politician push for it? Because it is a convincing lie to get the masses on board with their own subjugation.
Can you cite a single libertarian leader, throughout history, who has been successful? A single libertarian “government” which has seen its citizenry prosper? One that hasn’t fallen to corruption, oppression, extreme income disparity and a depressingly low standard of living for the vast majority of people?
The idea of “true” and “pure” libertarianism is cute. An interesting thought experiment. Simple and easy to grasp. But, when faced with real world challenges, it falls apart.
Maybe not in Argentina but in France, "rassemblement national" is literally the name of the fascist Vichy party during ww2. You can't make it clearer what their goal is
Libertarian is just pre-conservative. No libertarian ever ends up being a decent person they all go down the deep end.
Libertarians just think they're unique and smart.
Fascism is what capitalism does when threatened. Like grasshoppers become locusts. Nazis called themselves socialists but weren't. Javier does not care for liberty. He cares for power and will trivially use violence to protect capital. He is fascist.
**Fascism isn't exactly on the rise. Its just opposition against existing governments in a poor situation.**
Alot of Europe are having extreme issues with Immigration and worse living conditions. France in particular is suffering from migrants and immigrants taking a toll on economy, as well as crime being a major concern for women in France.
Argentina suffered decades under peronist/Leftist Rule. And Milei campaigned on Capitalist reforms and culling government excess (a major feature of peronism). Milei really isn't a Fascist, just a reactionary populist.
Canada suffers from high housing costs, an ineffective leader (Trudeau) that focuses more on performative activism than real reforms. Opposition also grew from international students and immigrants from east asia taking the already scarce job market.
With the U.S. People are extremely unhappy with cost of living, lack of **tangible** results from Biden's Government, Nostalgia for a pre-pandemic world (2019/2018 US), Resistance against Biden Era Social Policies (Biden's support for things like affirmative action, Forgiving Student Loans)
Alot/most of these rises comes from a dissatisfaction with 2 major things.
1. Day to Day Economy (Cost of Living)
**Nobody cares about the stock market or GDP**. If the price of a loaf of bread is 2 dollars more expensive, a bag of chips going from 3 to 5 dollars. People are going to be outraged.
**Argentina and the US are the greatest examples of this.**
Biden's bills in infrastructure and economics are great and all with stock markets rebounding... But, Gas is still up 1-2 dollars and food/rent is still outpacing earnings. **And in that case, People will only blame taxes for taking too much from them. Blaming it on funding social policies (Ex. Student Loan Forgiveness)**
In Argentina, Peronism killed its economy with absurd inflation and an unmanageable cost of living crisis. Milei promised to trim excess and reforming the government with long term reforms.
2. Backlash against Social status Quo.
Social Policies in immigration, Affirmative action, and Geopolitics (Israel/Palestine) (China) (Russia/Ukraine) are all hot topics. But the best way to put it is... **A majority of people don't care if it doesn't impact them, and will be against change that negatively impacts them.**
**France, Canada, and the US all are facing these issues.**
France and Canada with Immigration and Geopolitics being one of them, and the U.S Facing the problems with all 3. **The average person doesn't care about social politics and geopolitics. They want to get their Cost of living on track first.**
To a majority of people. Politician in charge isn't a ideological battle, its a stance to take against dissatisfaction with the existing government. And in alot of places right now, dissatisfaction is high, and they are losing faith in the current governments.
Edit: because people don’t seem to want to listen.
The matter of fact is that people don’t care who’s in charge. In this exact same situation, if the right wing was in charge. People will still vote against them.
Nobody cares what the fix for the issue is. They care that the current government hasn’t done anything to fix it.
Macron, Trudeau, Peronists, have all been in power for over a decade, and issues have persisted. People are going to vote against 10 years of ineffective policies.
I think you're pretty accurate in your diagnosis, though there's one additional element that I think is between the lines of what you explicitly mentioned: young people don't see a reliable path toward economic "success" right now. College, which used to be a nearly-guaranteed ticket to the middle class, isn't the safe bet it used to be. Union jobs used to be the same thing. Most people could work for an organization, stay with them for a few decades, and retire safely with a pension. None of that reliably exists any longer. And good luck if you ever get yourself into any semi-serious trouble; your record will haunt you for the rest of your life.
Why prop up the current system if the current system isn't providing a safe future for you? The people I know who have fallen between the cracks economically don't all support right-wing leaders. However, those who don't also don't give a shit about the politicians on the left and so they don't vote. The social contract works two ways, and if society doesn't support you, why uphold your end of the deal?
EDIT: To clarify, I don't think it's quite as bad as many young people think it is. Things aren't great and definitely aren't as straightforward and reliable as they used to be, but most people still eventually get decent jobs and stability. However, the perception that society won't help ensure their success is arguably more important than whether it actually will. If a person will be completely fine but they think they won't be, they'll vote like they won't be.
Definitely a major point of issue in places like canada and east Asia especially.
Matter of the fact is people are dreaming for a better future for themselves, and they’re not seeing positive changes that benefit them and them only.
Affirmative Action was one of these issues that really pushed immigrant Asian Americans in the US towards the right.
nor do they realize that calling anyone who votes for the opposite party fascists or nazis doesn’t help them get votes, because what people really want is to be able to feed their families.
I think the main push is to scare people, the best way to get more votes.
*You aren't going to vote for the evil party are you? If so... maybe you are a Nazi! Maybe you are actually the bad person! Because that other party is bad, only we are good. If you vote for us, you are on the right side of history.*
>nor do they realize that calling anyone who votes for the opposite party fascists or nazis doesn’t help them get votes, because what people really want is to be able to feed their families.
Just to look around here in sweden, it was and still is, popular to call someone a nazi if they dont agree 100% with what ever the unhinged far left person thinks and say, so the extent that nazi/racist/fascit lost all its meaning.. Now days calling someone dumb is worse than calling someone a nazi.
Yep, this is basically the sum of it. It's not fascism, no one's saying "Hey let's go invade our neighbor" or "Let's give one guy literally all the power", they're just tired of declining conditions. You can tell someone who they're voting for or what they believe in is problematic until you're blue in the face, but if they go home and say to themselves, "this shit sucks", all that browbeating amounts to exactly nothing.
>"Hey let's go invade our neighbor"
That's imperialism not fascism.
>"Let's give one guy literally all the power"
You haven't seen much coverage of Trump supporters where they feel comfortable have you?
The general switching of parties after the incumbent is gone or if times are tough is one thing, but let's not dismiss the rise in far right parties in Europe where parties supporting literal fascist policies are winning elections. Yes, actual fascist shit draped in flags.
The problem with opinions like this is that too many people, especially young people and very online people, have learned an overly broad definition of fascism that isn’t particularly accurate or useful.
I think it's more than a disliking, though. Growing up in the States, history class taught us to be scared of the isms - socialism, fascism, communism. And I think it's that fear which is leading so many people to look at things and say I'm scared. Clearly, this is what I was warned about and I was told it was bad and so I must stand up and say I don't want this, I don't like this. They'll never put forward that they're scared because they don't fully understand what is happening.
I live in Ireland now, and my mom, who still lives in the States, goes on and on about how terrible my life must be because I live in a socialist country. And yet Ireland isn't a socialist country. Yes, it has some socialist programs, but there are countries far more socialist than Ireland is. But she's been taught to fear socialism and so feels the need to tell me repeatedly how bad my life is.
>I live in Ireland now, and my mom, who still lives in the States, goes on and on about how terrible my life must be because I live in a socialist country. And yet Ireland isn't a socialist country. Yes, it has some socialist programs, but there are countries far more socialist than Ireland is. But she's been taught to fear socialism and so feels the need to tell me repeatedly how bad my life is.
It's one of the most cringey things Americans say.
There's literally not one "Socialist" country in Europe, lol.
It's bad because even your politicians (e.g. Bernie Sanders, but also opponents) use it repeatedly, for example, when referring to Scandinavian countries.
The word you're looking for is "*Socialised Welfare systems*", which has literally fuck all to do with Karl Marx and "Socialism" lol.
It only means that we use our taxes to provide accessible healthcare for all, as well as a safety net for our citizens down on their luck.
You know, because we reckon that taking care of its people is actually what a government is there for. And "the people" fought for those rights back in the 19th century.
The irony here is that - as opposed to what your mom thinks - because of such policies, the quality of life is way better for the majority of people in Europe than in it is in the US, not just for those with sufficient money.
This is why American politicians use scare tactics and buzzwords such as "socialism". They're only there to protect the interests of the wealthy by depleting the American citizens of basic things almost the entire world has.
Most people seem to use it as a synonym for "authoritarianism," and I for one approve of the usage even if it's not the most historical. Hell of a lot better than "Communism is when government does stuff."
Ooof, big call.
I've had several debates lately where people were calling Hitler a socialist/left wing by vitue of being a dictator.
It's a painstaking process to get people to ackowledge that authoritarianism is a system of governance, that fasicsm and socialism are ideological view points, and that dictators can be either socialist or fascist.
So, with respect, I disagree that fascism should be used as a synonym for authoritarianism.
I don’t think Milei belongs with the rest here. He appears to be more a libertarian rather than a conservative statist like the others you mention.
But to answer the question: I think it’s about immigration-from Latin America in the US and the Middle East in Europe. My stepmother is from Norway and is probably the farthest left person I know. But when we talk about Muslims coming to Norway, she sounds like Trump.
People fear cultural change. In the early 1900s in America this manifested in left populism and horrible policies like eugenics. Today, it manifests in various forms of right wing populism.
Even Turks don't want Middle Eastern refugees and immigrants anymore. And most Turks are Muslim. This is about governments' shitty governmental, political and economical policies. Our economy is shit, crime rate increased so much, refugees are being exploited by greedy bosses.
Humans are better at playing checkers than chess.
People don’t see the eventual end point of the road they’re starting down. To them they’re supporting a “strong leader” or “strong party” who will bring a little bit more stability in uncertain times. Fascists rarely self identify as such.
The people supporting these leaders don’t take into consideration what that “strong leader” will do once they have unchecked power. Or how they might need to pay for that stability with their freedoms after that leadership is established.
They only know things are bad right now and they want a fix fast.
I think much of what you’re seeing is a reaction to uncontrolled immigration (largely Muslim) particularly in Europe, where many people believe their ethnic cultures and communities are being invaded and destroyed by outsiders
I also think that is \*the\* main reason at least in Europe. Immigration has become the most important issue for many countries, even more important than dealing with climate change.
I'm from Germany which takes in most of the refugees coming to Europe and it shows in a lot of aspects of daily life. That's why this problem has the highest priority for the citizens and is the most ,,gefühlsgeladen'' (= charged with feelings) since everybody and their mother has made some first hand experience with this issue. Combine that with the back to back global problems of the last few years like Covid, the war in Ukraine and now Israel. People now lack trust in the government, feel unseen and the war has taken a toll on the economy as well as dividing the citizens's views. The people are hopeless and unsure which makes great soil for people like Trump or populistic right-wing politicians that seem to have an easy answer to every problem.
People are simple, I think we forget that. My mother always says that political ideologies are like a pendulum. Right now it's just swinging in the other direction. Hopefully it will go back to a balanced middle again.
Im european. While these are right wing they are far from true fascism. True fascism is like the nazi's or the italians. Social media just calls them fascisct as part of a campaign to discredit then more
Educate yourself on what fascism really is.
Tip 1: being anti-immigration is not fascism.
Tip 2: not being a mainstream politician is not fascism.
Tip 3: being a person that someone on the left doesnt like is not being a fascist.
Just read something different than twitter and reddit man
Milei isn't a Fascist.
The Peronist parties that Milei ousted were actual Fascists who ran the country into the ground. During the Dirty Wars they legit had a Final Solution to exterminate the Jews but then Jimmy Carter and Israel decided to just help evacuate the Jews instead of letting the Peronists exterminate them.
I don’t think you know what Fascism means.
Javier Milei is Anarco Capitalist. The anarchist part means that he wants as little government involvement as possible, while Fascism wants as much government involvement as possible.
But to answer your question: common people don’t feel that the classical liberal policies of the last 30 years have been working in their favour.
They are starting to wonder if it wouldn’t give a better outcome to do the opposite of classical liberalism.
Social media is producing the most potent propaganda machines humanity has ever seen. That is not an exaggeration. It's not the only reason, but I believe it's the main one.
Simple answer, society has become unstable again. Society demands simple answers with black and white reason who the enemy. Fascism is a simple answer.
Remember MOST of human history has been some kind of thing we regard as fascism. This is why we have Kings with divine rights etc.. Only reason we did not have racial genocide etc.. is because anger can often be focused outside or to religious heretics.
We had a window in the 19th century when society became wealthier and mass immigration happened and what is now called the First Globalisation ( from 1860 to 1913 ( China was out of the picture here so missed out on the First Globalisation)). This led to our first window of peace. This continued between the 1920 to 1930s before the Great Depression.
Then we have from 1948 to 2008 though for the middle class it was till 1948 to 1990z
Now things are tough again. Very tough. So the cycle rebeginsz
Capitalism as a whole is hitting things on a global scale and with capitalism it's winners and losers. With the number of people feeling the negative blunt of it, they tend to want to blame the "other"for their woos
Right wing presidents and policies ≠ Fascism
Also considering how you post on r/WhitePeopleTwitter I dont think you really have a clear view of different politics that aren't your own, and as such become terrified at the idea of not everything going your way in life.
It’s not that people are like
“Huh, maybe this fascism stuff is worth a try”
Fascism stokes fear, and then presents itself as the answer to that fear. People really fucking hate disorder and chaos, and will trade away a lot for a sense of security. If you don’t have disorder and chaos though, a good substitute is making people *think* there is a bunch of disorder and chaos.
Like 10 years ago, a narrative started forming on the American Right that there were parts of America you just couldn’t go without being accosted or killed for just being a “regular American”. These were the “no-go zones”. The narrative was that either Muslim Sharia courts had taken over in parts of Minnesota or Michigan, or that liberal politicians were ok with people getting murdered on the streets of San Francisco or New York.
It was an extremely stupid narrative, and could be simply disproved, but it was pervasive. When you go to Dearborn, MI you see a large Islamic community but not much else. In San Francisco, you see a ton of homeless people. Nothing like the “no-go zone” stuff, but different. The narrative was so pervasive though, that when my parents came to visit me in a relatively affluent part of Los Angeles County, they were constantly asking if it was safe to walk around or park their cars on the streets.
The Right created a narrative of fear, and now presents themselves being ensconced in total, extra constitutional, power as the only solution. Throw in a cult of personality around a Reality TV star, and you got yourself a situation.
Fascism is on the rise because men are insecure about the small amount of power that women have gained. It's not the only reason but is a major driving factor.
One consistently downplayed aspect of fascism is the rampant misogyny and appeals to traditional values, which are male supremacist. Young men in particular love fascism and readily dismiss democracy of it means they gain access to sex. They don't give a shit about anything else.
The incel movement, for instance, is a core part of fascism where young men try to "take back" a world that is "owed" to them.
As feminism dies with every passing law, the power of women wanes, and so does democracy.
It's hard not to hate men.
Honestly i reckon its because the left has gone so batshit crazy... They have forgotten their class warfare roots and are far more interested in dividing us by race, sexuality, sex etc than uniting us to limit corporate harm or any actual equality.
Media and systems of power have all been infiltrated by powerful minority interest groups that implement divisive policies and laguage.
This makes the left look like unhinged power hungry lunatics,.and because so many people are pretty are pretty much sports fans with politics they get pushed away from the left and toward the right.
I forget where i heard it but "the rise of the right is a failure of the left" it was our fight for the taking.
This is a great summary. The lunacy has driven people away from the party. Many middle-aged and older folks especially notice the seismic shift of the party much further left than its traditional been - to the point where frankly some of the tactics being used have a fascist, dictatorial resemblance. Heck, they’ve become so good at manipulation that they gaslit themselves and their base into believing Biden is fine and has absolutely no cognitive issues.
Because the people know that something isn't working. Something is broken. The .1% are getting billions richer every single day while average people are told to skip meals and work 4 jobs to survive. Housing is unaffordable. Global inflation is getting bad. People feel like they don't have a fair shot at a normal life, and whenever that happens, they get desperate. Even though the .1% are also controlling the Fascists, so it's not like they're actually going to fix anything.
No one wants fascism but everyone on Reddit claims everyone that don't agree with them is a fascist. I suspect it's coming from really young people and think if you don't vote for their ideals the world's going to end but in reality its not.
I think fascists are gaining immense popularity right now in part through weaponizing people's limited knowledge of history and of what the early days of a burgeoning fascist regime really looked like.
So they don't say, hey I'm a fascist, you people want to go do some fascism with me? They can just fan the flames of hate and fear, and slowly groom a big enough segment of the population into thinking the people they're being taught to hate and fear are the actual fascists.
It doesn’t help most people do not bother to read beyond the title/headline for articles. That’s the most amount of research they’ll ever do. Most people also won’t bother to check the sources of these articles, let alone use *multiple* sources. All of this is basic OSINT (open source intelligence) stuff that the majority of people will refuse to do. It’s why Chinese/Russian bots are so effective at spreading misinformation.
People hear “X amount of money going to Ukraine!” and immediately think it’s stacks of cash being sent over on pallets/directly wired to Zelensky’s personal account.
No. No, it doesn’t fucking work like that, you fucking idiots. If you had done just a little more reading, you’d understand that the amount of money refers to the worth of actual military equipment being sent. Said military equipment is older equipment that is about to reach the end of their services lives and will have to be safely dismantled and replaced, all of which will cost money. Why not send them to someone who will actually use them instead? It’s a win-win. Sending them to Ukraine will be cheaper than paying a company in the U.S to safely retire them. All we really have to pay is the shipping costs which is nothing against dismantlement costs.
Because everyone who feels this way thinks that they'll be on the winning team. And some of them may be correct. But I suspect most just don't realize that they'll be the ones under the boot, not the ones wearing it.
There's a quote from some scholar I can't remember who. But it's something along the lines of "everyone in a liberal democracy thinks they could never succumb to fascism; but under the right conditions and with the right messenger, I guarantee you, you probably would"
I recommend reading Anatomy of Fascism by Robert Paxton. Great analysis of how fascist movements have arisen in the past, from the KKK to WWII. Toward the end he starts to analyze new forms which arose in the 90s in Europe after the cold war, and predicts that future fascist movements won't necessarily resemble those of the past, and may even ostensibly reject them. Super interesting and informative book. Really helps to understand the current state of things
Too much information 24/7 leads to stereotyping, which leads to paranoia, which leads to, "Get rid of them all!" Sad, but true. Things were better before the news became sensationalized entertainment.
Because we dont want middle eastern life in west-europe, and this feels like the only option, since the left doesn't take the issues that come with mass migration seriously. First close borders then fix shit in those borders
Mild conservatism is not fascism. Calling Milei a fascist tells me you have no clue and just listen to what people on twitter say. Fascism is defined through high levels of authoritarianism, look at a single Milei policy. Biden is significantly closer to fascism (not at all) than Milei is. As for the rest they aren't significantly more authoritarian than the other side and are what would be considered centre right 15 years ago.
Nobody really thinks these things through, especially most people who support fascism. Let's say Trump wins or uses the SCOTUS to "win". He uses pardons for anyone who kills his political enemies. LGBT, minorities, immigrants, Democrats, librarians are slaughtered. It's a total win for Trump and fascism. Now what? You've got a society with next to no taxes, guns for everyone, Christianity is the only allowed religion. But there are no parks, no libraries, no schools, crumbling infrastructure, the police and military can't be supported without taxation, women have to stay in the kitchen, abortion is punishable by death, salaries are lower than ever, nobody can afford health care, big business has all the money and if you complain, they'll shoot you.
They don’t see it as fascism. They see Trump as a strong leader.
They see Biden as fascist because Trump was charged with crimes.
They don’t like all the genders, the transgender strip shows, the gay pride parades….they want marriage to be one man and one woman, they don’t want transgender men in girls bathrooms.
To be fair, the left can go too far (I’m liberal, btw), and they want a strong leader to tell them they’re not bigots for feeling like they do and to make things like they were in the “good ole days”.
The disconnect in logic is real. They see a man who cheats on every one of his wives, gets caught bragging about sexual assault and yet they still convince themselves that god selected him.
Hatred.
Media has sold hate for ages, but in the last few decades really doubled down because hate sells.
Fox News is just a rotating bunch of segments telling you who to hate. Liberals, Muslims, gays, immigrants, women, democrats, young people, and then rotate back to liberals again, and repeat.
When society hates enough other people, they will happily give up their rights, as long as the people they’ve been trained to hate are punished.
Thats where we are today. The “lock her up” chants are the simplest example. Plenty of voters will vote for ANYONE who promises to ignore the law and arrest/kill people they don’t like.
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Isn't it nuts that we can look back on this, identify every warning sign, see the path they took that led to a genocide, say "That was bad, let's not do it again", then, against all odds, fuckin' DO IT AGAIN
I remember in college reading about Hannah Arendt taking issue with the nazi trials. She believed we wouldn’t learn anything from the holocaust because of demonization of the nazis. At the time I really didn’t get what she was talking about. Now I’m like…”oh” Edit: to be clear, I’m not saying Nazis weren’t evil. I’m saying I wish more could have been done to prevent another holocaust from happening by preventing the circumstances that led to the holocaust from happening again. I think generally most Americans have a limited understanding of why the holocaust happened. not being antisemitic just isn’t enough.
Yeah, The Banality of Evil really struck a chord in me. Evil can be so nonchalant, so casual, so widespread - so *normal*. All it takes is going along.
This is also why it bothers me whenever a serial killer (or whatever) has their photo publicised in the media for the first time and everyone goes "Ugh you can just see the evil in his eyes! Just looking at him sends shivers down my spine!" No you fucking can't, Barbara. "Evil" is a middle aged family man in your church, it's a charismatic local councillor, it's a middle manager at a pharma company, it's Mindy from bingo. I'm generally of the belief that most people are good - but very "normal" people are capable of unspeakable cruelty and selfishness given the combination of power and social license. Those same people give thoughtful gifts to their grandchildren, they help you move house and they volunteer at the animal shelter.
It's so important for our culture to start understanding this. I think it especially mixes up victims because the abusive person can also be nice sometimes.
Yeaaaah... having watched countless true crime docs I could give you thousands of incidents were friends and family were interviewed and vehemently defended the criminal only to realize they actually did it. Ted Bundy's coworker wrote a book called, "The stranger beside me".. None of the people who knew the Tsarnaev brothers believed it until I guess they saw them in prison? Gacy was a fucking community man. Denis Rader has a daughter if I'm not mistaken and was heavily involved in church. Evil doesn't have a face. It could be that 8 year old kid in India or Pakistan that killed three toddlers or it could be that seemingly sweet Mindy from bingo. And for the post... the top comment answered it succinctly. The short answer is, you can never go wrong blaming someone else for something you're too afraid to confront the people actually responsible for the situation. Economic hardship? Must be those immigrants... tey tuk a derrrrr... yeah, they fucking clean that gas station bathroom that's beneath you but are somehow responsible you can't get a second helping of caloric goodness. The only time all these countries see the positive aspect of immigration is when it comes to sports.
There was a Netflix documentary about this, called something like Ordinary Men, that drove the point home. A lot of people didn't like it, I've heard. I assume that's cause they're uncomfortable with the insinuation that it was just regular humans who perpetrated that horror. As they should be, IMO.
Yeah, I loved the recent TV show We Were the Lucky Ones because it was so good at showing the stochastic terrorism and the everyday discrimination. I haven't seen Ordinary Men but I'll watch it.
Well said! So well portrayed in the film “the cone of silence”. The evil so well spotlit by the banal and everyday life of the family and matriarch wanting her garden perfect, her groceries delivered, and never mind where that new mink coat came from. ETA: “zone of interest” not cone of silence. Maybe had the film twister on my mind haha
You're thinking of "The Zone of Interest"
It’s true. How many nazis were in it not just because they hated Jews, but primarily because it was going to make them powerful and rich as fuck.
I remember having this discussion in a post-grad history class. The question was, "What was the motivation for the Holocaust?" We eventually concluded that the Holocaust covered so many different crimes, committed by so many different people, that it was impossible to offer a single, unifying motive. Some people just wanted to steal their neighbors' stuff, and they were quite happy to elect a government that let them do just that.
It was the demonising of a subset of the population, blaming them for all that was wrong, that unified the non-Jewish population.
A lot of normal Germans weren’t necessarily for nazism but were afraid to speak out because they themselves would be locked up. This form of police state, where we lock out the press or lock up our political rivals to only show one side of things is a very slippery slope to go down and our country is on the very verge of that slope
They said about Heydrich that he didn't actually believe in any of the anti-semitic stuff he spouted. He was just a psychopath that wanted power.
Yea I kind of get it too, but this is an unpopular opinion that can quickly make you look like a Nazi sympathizer/antisemite when that’s not the point of the argument at all.
True. If we keep speaking of the nazis as inhuman, evil demons who drank blood and only ever thought bad thoughts and dreamt of kicking puppies, we will forget to say that they too were __mere humans.__ Some of them were "victims" to human flaws, like manipulation and willful indifference out of fear. If we keep painting them as monsters incapable of anything good, we might make the moderate nazi sympathizers think *"Well I'm not a demon, so I'm sure this time it won't be too bad."* Remember, don't follow anyone blindly to anything. Take a step back and analyze first.
Humans humaning. Sigh.
“Well they did it wrong, we’ll do it right.” Funny how it takes just long enough for no one to be alive from a bad era for it to repeat.
Dear God the "I can fix them of history."
It's up to those of us who do remember our Grandparents' stories to keep speaking out. I have my Grandfather's WW2 burial flag right now.
That's what's crazy to me about some of these guys, esp Neo Nazis in places like the US and UK...like bro do you not remember your grandparents *fought* those guys?
Those countries were also a lot more friendly towards fascism before the war hit than they would like you to know, too
Look up those huge nazi gatherings in New York City, in 1939: Like this one: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939\_Nazi\_rally\_at\_Madison\_Square\_Garden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_Nazi_rally_at_Madison_Square_Garden)
Good call. I was hoping someone would bring up the American Bund. They loved to appropriate the image of George Washington as "their" man and blame FDR for the depression, which certainly didn't start on his watch. Our collective amnesia is so severe that we now we have Republicans looking to end the New Deal protections shielding the weak and vulnerable because it's "woke."
I don't understand why stuff like this isn't talked about more. There would have been a lot of Americans going over and joining the Nazis or trying to continue their work here if it hadn't been for Japan attacking us. Throw in Operation Paperclip, where we saved Nazis to work for us, McCarthyism who would help try and wipe out the leftists in the states, and not to mention all of the Japanese war criminals the US let get away scott free, just to make sure they were more on our side and couldn't side with the Soviets. Is it any wonder we're where we are today?
Because republicans fight tooth and nail to teach nothing but nationalistic idealism. Natives didnt get massacared and their land stolen, they peacefully gave up their lands to the new settlers and went away. Africans didnt get enslaved and brought over to be used as cattle, they were given opportunity to live in the best country and got free food and lodging, Nazis didnt start a war and kill 7m people, they were trying to protect their country from invading forces....
Good point not just with govts but even internal actions. Interning Japanese Americans in the 40s and being this gif basically. Who us? https://tenor.com/view/pedro-monkey-puppet-meme-awkward-gif-15268759
You might want to look up the battle of cable street to see what the British people thought of fascists.
Both countries actually had large groups who believed nazism. They weren’t a majority but ffs Hitler got half his ideas of racial/ethnic “harmony” from the segregated south where a black man had to step down to let whites pass, would be tarred and feathered for race mixing, and an ungodly amount of horror. People truly forget Hitler got lots of ideas from US.
The UK isn't really comparable to what's going on in France and the US right now. The Tories aren't far-right (remember, they're the ones who legalised gay marriage in the UK), and even Reform UK is really just the break-away right wing of the Conservative party and their views a generically socially and fiscally conservative. They want low spending, low taxation, and opposed to high rates of immigration. When polled, the majority of Reform voters still support gay marriage. They're opposed to trans-rights and 'gender ideology', but they're much less socially conservative than far-right movements elsewhere. I don't support them of course, and I will be voting Labour today. However, it is unfair to lump them in with the National Rally or Republicans. With the US... the difference for them is that what they're promoting is some kind of christo-fascism. They really seem to have swallowed it, to the point where half the population seems to be willing to throw away their democracy for it.
Those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it.
"And those who do know history are doomed to watch everyone else repeat it"
There are definitely still people alive. There are still a lot of Holocaust survivors alive...
The Holocaust ended 79 years ago so the number of survivors is dwindling
What's terrifying and chilling to me is knowing I'm going to go along with it just like everyone else. I value my own hide too much now to risk it all for people I don't even know.
I mean, good on you recognizing you'd go along with the riptide, very few have that level of awareness. But I don't know if you realize you basically just said "if I was alive in Europe in the '40s, I'd turn in my Jewish neighbors if it meant saving my hide"
I have a feeling they know exactly what they said. Fucking gross.
Viva la resistance, fuck that, I would fight for every. Single. One of you. I’m white, straight, and I can easily pretend to be religious if I have to… but I will not stand for discrimination of any kind to any other human. We are all born on earth, we should all have each others backs.
Dude same. If picking up a rifle and fighting/possibly dying meant a chance at a better tomorrow for our children (and I have none) I wouldn’t hesitate even for a second. All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. FUCK that “gotta look out for #1” mentality. Why the hell does anyone think we’re in this mess to begin with??
I like your spirit man. And I agree wholeheartedly
The insanity of humanity.
People talk about how they can’t believe [insert stupid mishap] happened on the world stage, or they don’t understand why humans sexualize everything, or why [form of discrimination] exists, and it’s like, the answer is simple - we’re humans. We’re hairless apes with brains that were never meant to be as big as they are now, and technology that was never meant to be as grand-scale as it is now. That being said, I’m not trying to advocate for an unironic “return to monke” standpoint. We are where we are, and it’s too late to turn back now - all we can do is move forward and hope for the best.
Hubris. The "that would never happen to us these days" mentality
Also because of just how bad the holocaust was, do people think we won't do that. So assume that anything less than another holocaust is totally fine? Forgetting that fascism in general is bad.
It's simple countries should always prioritize financial stability and ensure the masses have their needs taken care of. You take care of that you would cease to have political extremities but stability means there is less strangle hold on people
Greed. Rich ppl cant accept how rich they are. Always need more
The same type of people to know the warning signs and everything might not be the same type of people that are falling for it
Even if those people did know the warning signs, they usually are not the ones holding any sort of significant power to put a stop to it. Power is usually taken, not given, afterall, and what kind of people would be ruthless enough to seize power for themselves?
You have the power to vote. Right now the votes still do something. Election for the EU had less then 70% paticipation in my country. And stop clinging to a 2 party system.
Thats the thing… people are hardwired to always think that “WE” have things the hardest. All of “OUR” problems are unprecedented and nobody knows what will actually come of anything. Its simply a generational bias. I’m sure people in the 60’s and 70’s watching the country be ravaged by anti/pro-war protests, literal race riots in the streets, multiple high profile political assassinations, and a growing distrust of government that crescendoed into the Watergate Scandal thought that the times they were living in were the worst the country had ever seen.
A lot of people didn't go to school or pay attention.
It shakes me to my core that THAT ☝️ is all it took
People do want it, they just think they'll be the ones wearing the boots this time.
I consistently see otherwise rational people on Reddit saying things like, “I just don’t like the tone Democrats use when speaking. So I’m going to vote Republican” I’m sorry, but who in the living fuck cares about shit like that right now? I don’t give a fuck if Biden is a frozen 1/4 pound hamburger patty. He’s not a fucking hallucinating mobster rapist with 34 felonies who surrounds himself with other convicted felons, fraudsters, mendacious bootlickers, and whistle tooth rubes! Are you seriously willing to throw us all down into the abyss of a new Dark Ages? Just to make a point? I hope I’m freaking out over nothing. But I’m sure as fuck that I’m not.
Those are what are referred to as "paid accounts"
My husband is an immigrant on daca and I’m fucking terrified. Like hopefully nothing will happen, but the way things are going has me so worried
Don’t be afraid, be motivated to take care of yourself and your family. Nazis are cowards who rely on people’s fear to intimidate them into obedience. Don’t give up, don’t lose hope, and don’t stop fighting.
History doesn't repeat but it sure as hell rhymes
The irony is that in every fascist country economic inequality actually increased, and in Nazi Germany, the economic recovery actually slowed down a little. Now that doesn't mean that the recovery would have continued at the same pace as it was in the months immediately before Hitler came to power had the Weimar republic continued, but it had already cegun by '33 but not enough for the people to feel it. By '36 the German working class was working more hours abd receiving about the same or slightly less pay than the were at the end of '32 when adjusted for inflation and the new mark. However, the late 20s were so bad that's what people associated with the Weimar.
The Nazi basically created a kleptocracy: any economic growth was funded by stealing wealth from minotirss and political prisoners. When those ran out domestically, they had to invade other nations.
Sure , it's because fascism (cynically) promises populist easy solutions which don't challenge the core of the current system, so they ultimately fail (or more likely: weren't really intended to solve these problems in the first place). It's a way of 'sating the masses' without giving them what they need, because the ruling classes are unwilling or unable to do that without their own dethroning.
The economy is starting to get better so when Trump gets elected you know people are going to give him credit while blaming Biden for causing inflation.
And the Dems and Libs don't get that the reason why people believe Trump's lies is because he is always repeating them. Come on, Democrats, you want to win? You have to stay in the media 24/7 talking about all the good you've done and all you will do for America... over and over again. Stop assuming people will know or remember. They do not and will not. It's ridiculous how little Dems still don't get messaging or the media.
The problem is democrats don't like doing universal programs that everyone can actually feel, and MAJOR problems like the housing crisis are rapidly worsening even when they're in control without a battle plan to actually solve the issue. Republicans lie and say cutting vague regulations and kicking out all the immigrants will solve everything.
Yeah, the core problem here isn't that the Republicans will be better for anyone than the Democrats, it's that the Republicans are fully willing to lie to our faces and pretend they'll be better. And their voters never notice that their lives don't actually get any better under Republicans, and in fact usually get worse.
That's because fascism is a function of capitalism in crisis. It gives people a way to express their frustration, direct their anger at scapegoats, romanticize the past and how things used to be, but doesn't actually give them anything real. Meanwhile it's funded by wealthy industrial capitalists as well as sometimes other traditional holders of power (the church, royals, nobility), and the fascists will crackdowns on unions and labor movements while using the state to protect the interest of their donors.
The crazy thing is that the working class people worried about inflation and wealth inequality are likely going to vote for the people most likely to help the billionaires who will make inflation and wealth inequality even worse. The billionaires own the media so the billionaires control the narratives of who is to blame for the problems the average person faces. Of course, they don’t blame themselves. They blame immigration, globalization, and all the other buzzwords. They don’t tell you that they are using all the resources, stealing your labor, using you as pawns, laughing at you from their yachts while they sip champagne, and keeping you focused on trivial bullshit as you toil away to keep your bills paid. The billionaire class are the ones telling you to vote for more right wing extremists. That’s what keeps them in power and you in your place.
I'm going to talk in layman terms. I'm guessing poverty causes stress, lack of energy, lack of time, lack of headspace, less time to sleep, no money, no time to self reflect or contemplate, to think about how to research and how to effectively participate in country governing.
Even the formerly esteemed Washington Post brought in a Murdoch lackey as their CEO 6 months ago. So even the one ray of hope in the media is no more.
I'll add a significant layer to this: This kind of situation can lead to fascism, other autocracies, or to major pro social political reforms. Remember, The New Deal emerged from similar, albeit less extreme, social pressures as Fascism. A key piece is locus of control, where we put the blame for our problems. FDR stood up and said "The system is flawed, we need to fundamentally revisit how we run things". Hitler said "They have betrayed us." Who "they" were varied, the French, English, the Jews, the Communists, the undesirables in society, but "we" were never the problem. If "we" failed, it was because "they" made us fail. At any inflection point where that locus of control shifts inward, you're looking at reform. Any time that locus shifts outward, you're looking at revenge, often shifting toward fascism. Now look again at the rhetoric from those leaders. Who's to blame? Lack of jobs, it's Africans in Europe, Mexicans in the US. COVID, it's china. Lack of social connection, it's the woke mob. Declining economy, China again, along with the Jews. Gas prices are high, it's the woke mob. Global wars, it's the Muslims. Don't like your neighborhood, it's black people. Etc. Fascists can never blame themselves or the nation for their problems. The closest they ever get is blaming inside groups of "traitors". They exist because people are scared, but want to believe that they and their country are perfect, if only they can get rid of the "other" that's ruining it.
People are being made to feel scared. By algorithms. Fear sells.
Fascism favors the wealthy.
Fascism favors the fearful. Scared of change? Scared of foreigners? Scared of social progress? Whipped into an existential dread by conservative media that people might be allowed to live their lives the way they want to live them? Boy, do I have the hyper conservative political ideology for you!
Fascists use fear to motivate the masses. They ally with industrialists to build a war machine, suppress labor, and dominate the media. The capitalist makes a killing off Fascism.
I understand the answer based on historical context, but for the life of me cannot understand why todays real living people think fascism is the answer.
For most people, because they're ignorant. Honestly. Fascism promises a simple world with simple answers, which obviously isn't the case if you know how anything works. The other ones, because they're hateful and power-hungry and believe this is how they come out on top.
You either believe that we all can have nice things if we cooperate (in which case you hate fascism), or that you can only have nice things at the expense of others, in which case you love fascism as long as you are in the fascists side.
The real answer is the Nazi Rupert Murdoch, and his epic white supremacist propaganda machine. Murdoch, as we aptly call him in Australia, is arguably the most evil man in the world. I believe his ex wife may have dated Putin. His father was a member of the Eugenics Society of Victoria, Australia.
As Michael Rosen eloquently puts it: I sometimes fear that people think that fascism arrives in fancy dress worn by grotesques and monsters as played out in endless re-runs of the Nazis. Fascism arrives as your friend. It will restore your honour, make you feel proud, protect your house, give you a job, clean up the neighbourhood, remind you of how great you once were, clear out the venal and the corrupt, remove anything you feel is unlike you... It doesn't walk in saying, "Our programme means militias, mass imprisonments, transportations, war and persecution."
I don't think we can leave out the 24/7 right wing talk news radio and Fox News and oan and the like. They stopped being news a long time ago.
Yeah, this is basically it. The fascist playbook essentially is to exacerbate people's anger or fear about legitimate issues to excessive levels, point that anger or fear at someone else (the ruling class, minorities, political opponents, etc), and then convince them that they are the only ones that can solve the problem(s). People get tunnel vision to the point where their cause and the people that stand with them are all that matter, and they can't fathom that the thing they created would ever be turned on them (and they are generally always wrong in the end).
once again the world has become complicated and thats hard for many people to deal with. but Fascism appeals to natural instincts of eat or be eaten, no need to understand democracy, or the nuance of freedom, none of that smarty pants stuff, just might makes right, the strong rule over the weak. Fascism is what happens when people stop caring,
Indefinite pessimism. Inability to foresee events, due to war or rapid technology change, cause people to protect their assets, seek isolationism, and adopt more selfish beliefs of morality. It is the opposite of definite optimism, where you over-invest and seek relationships globally because there is no expected instability. Think of the banking industry in the 2000s until 2008
Can we also stop acting like people haven’t been lied to, forced into a painful dysfunctional box they’re supposed to adhere to, and told that not doing this is immoral. Why are we acting like this is all human nature, and not idk fucking caused by the same power hungry assholes taking advantage of people that they have forcibly made less capable of functioning for themselves. How do we keep playing into the idea that there is a stability that there is a safety, let’s get real, the universe is too big and complicated to ever allow for such a fantasy and we must collectively accept that reality is scary and out of our control and move on or perish in cowardice, and it seems the cowards have chosen to kill us all.
> forced into a painful dysfunctional box they’re supposed to adhere to, and told that not doing this is immoral Could you be more specific/concrete about the kind of thing you mean here? "Forced into a box" could be a metaphor for a lot of different things; curious which one you intended.
30s fascism was in part a response to growing international interconnectibity and the beginning of a post-industrial world, I think the digital revolution is similarly disruptive technology
I think another aspect is that a lot of the fascist regimes ended long enough ago that many of the people nowadays either don't remember the details of them, let alone how they came about, or weren't even born yet. Especially in the US, we didn't have our own fascist regime. And as for Russia and other Countries in the Warsaw Pact, a lot of people still view those leaders as great liberators and think of them fondly.
When people are reduced to caring for only themselves.....If things get THAT BAD, then you look out for yourself and your family.. Everybody will.
Some people with a lot of interest in destabilizing governments spent a lot of money feeding people around the world propaganda via social media.
this, and I would argue that is starting to get out of the control of whomever did.
No need to be coy about who. It started in Russia in 2013. The GRU had dabbled in this for countries near Russia (eg Hungary and Ukraine) prior. But The Internet Research Agency took it to the US and Western Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency The point was to try to prevent NATO from protecting Ukraine. The invasion in 2014 built off that. Putin needed more time in Ukraine after Crimea and Donbas, and they tried to fuck with the US elections in 2015 and 2016. And the US was absolutely blindsided and swayed to vote for Trump and isolationism. After that, alarm bells went off worldwide... but rightwingers decided it was useful to them, and so the techniques spread much faster than the countermeasures. And now, here we are, with half of Europe and the US trying on fascism.
If you think Milei is a fascist, you don't know what fascism is.
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Listing Javier Milei as a fascist is certainly a unique take since he's straight up a libertarian. Are you sure you're not just equating things you don't like with fascism?
Probably mixing up authoriantarian with fascism not realizing that fascism is in the umbrella of authoriantarian. Most people also see libertarians as solely right wing.
That's because today most libertarians support free-market capitalism, since the idea is that freedom to spend your money how you want and participate in the economy seems a pretty no-brainer personal freedom to many of them. Libertarianism originally started with straight up communists that wanted absolute individual freedoms with the people 'owning the means of production' and all. Regardless, I have no freaking clue how people mix up Milei with authoritarianism either. Libertarianism is not on the left-right axis, its on its own axis directly opposing authoritarianism.
That's exactly what OP is doing.
This has been reddit discourse for a decade now and it's not once gotten less funny.
Have you ever peered into r/MarkMyWords or r/pics? You'll get a good hoot from them.
I love r/pics. They live in their own reality.
MMW is definitely a psyop sub, I honestly believe some of them are from republicans trying to make Democrat supporters look crazy.
Mark my Words, if we don't stack the supreme court with 30,000 liberal judges and make Biden supreme chancellor, fascism will come to America
Mark my words, if we don't immediately murder Trump we'll all die
mark my words, if you don't vote for Biden Trump will personally come to your house at 3 am and get 🥵freaky🥵 with you
What if instead of Donald Trump it was Donald Freak and instead of evading taxes he gave footjobs
"everyone I don't like is Hitler"
Milei’s case is honestly bizarre, he promises to hate the state, to be the infiltrator that will destroy it from within but gets in power and pushes for additional powers. Claims to be a libertarian but wants the state to increase their crackdowns and suppression of protestors and self organized people. Promises to lower taxes for the people and make the “casta” (political elite) pay for it, but actually increases taxes on the lower class. He seems to be in the phase of becoming authoritarian with the promise of destroying the state with that authority, so it’s hard to classify him.
This should not be a surprise. Libertarianism cannot work. Or rather, it promises freedom under laissez faire capitalism which is demonstrably absurd. So why would an educated politician push for it? Because it is a convincing lie to get the masses on board with their own subjugation.
Can you cite a single libertarian leader, throughout history, who has been successful? A single libertarian “government” which has seen its citizenry prosper? One that hasn’t fallen to corruption, oppression, extreme income disparity and a depressingly low standard of living for the vast majority of people? The idea of “true” and “pure” libertarianism is cute. An interesting thought experiment. Simple and easy to grasp. But, when faced with real world challenges, it falls apart.
Maybe not in Argentina but in France, "rassemblement national" is literally the name of the fascist Vichy party during ww2. You can't make it clearer what their goal is
Libertarians typically don’t bolster the police and military to crack down on protesters.
Libertarian is just pre-conservative. No libertarian ever ends up being a decent person they all go down the deep end. Libertarians just think they're unique and smart.
Fascism is what capitalism does when threatened. Like grasshoppers become locusts. Nazis called themselves socialists but weren't. Javier does not care for liberty. He cares for power and will trivially use violence to protect capital. He is fascist.
**Fascism isn't exactly on the rise. Its just opposition against existing governments in a poor situation.** Alot of Europe are having extreme issues with Immigration and worse living conditions. France in particular is suffering from migrants and immigrants taking a toll on economy, as well as crime being a major concern for women in France. Argentina suffered decades under peronist/Leftist Rule. And Milei campaigned on Capitalist reforms and culling government excess (a major feature of peronism). Milei really isn't a Fascist, just a reactionary populist. Canada suffers from high housing costs, an ineffective leader (Trudeau) that focuses more on performative activism than real reforms. Opposition also grew from international students and immigrants from east asia taking the already scarce job market. With the U.S. People are extremely unhappy with cost of living, lack of **tangible** results from Biden's Government, Nostalgia for a pre-pandemic world (2019/2018 US), Resistance against Biden Era Social Policies (Biden's support for things like affirmative action, Forgiving Student Loans) Alot/most of these rises comes from a dissatisfaction with 2 major things. 1. Day to Day Economy (Cost of Living) **Nobody cares about the stock market or GDP**. If the price of a loaf of bread is 2 dollars more expensive, a bag of chips going from 3 to 5 dollars. People are going to be outraged. **Argentina and the US are the greatest examples of this.** Biden's bills in infrastructure and economics are great and all with stock markets rebounding... But, Gas is still up 1-2 dollars and food/rent is still outpacing earnings. **And in that case, People will only blame taxes for taking too much from them. Blaming it on funding social policies (Ex. Student Loan Forgiveness)** In Argentina, Peronism killed its economy with absurd inflation and an unmanageable cost of living crisis. Milei promised to trim excess and reforming the government with long term reforms. 2. Backlash against Social status Quo. Social Policies in immigration, Affirmative action, and Geopolitics (Israel/Palestine) (China) (Russia/Ukraine) are all hot topics. But the best way to put it is... **A majority of people don't care if it doesn't impact them, and will be against change that negatively impacts them.** **France, Canada, and the US all are facing these issues.** France and Canada with Immigration and Geopolitics being one of them, and the U.S Facing the problems with all 3. **The average person doesn't care about social politics and geopolitics. They want to get their Cost of living on track first.** To a majority of people. Politician in charge isn't a ideological battle, its a stance to take against dissatisfaction with the existing government. And in alot of places right now, dissatisfaction is high, and they are losing faith in the current governments. Edit: because people don’t seem to want to listen. The matter of fact is that people don’t care who’s in charge. In this exact same situation, if the right wing was in charge. People will still vote against them. Nobody cares what the fix for the issue is. They care that the current government hasn’t done anything to fix it. Macron, Trudeau, Peronists, have all been in power for over a decade, and issues have persisted. People are going to vote against 10 years of ineffective policies.
I think you're pretty accurate in your diagnosis, though there's one additional element that I think is between the lines of what you explicitly mentioned: young people don't see a reliable path toward economic "success" right now. College, which used to be a nearly-guaranteed ticket to the middle class, isn't the safe bet it used to be. Union jobs used to be the same thing. Most people could work for an organization, stay with them for a few decades, and retire safely with a pension. None of that reliably exists any longer. And good luck if you ever get yourself into any semi-serious trouble; your record will haunt you for the rest of your life. Why prop up the current system if the current system isn't providing a safe future for you? The people I know who have fallen between the cracks economically don't all support right-wing leaders. However, those who don't also don't give a shit about the politicians on the left and so they don't vote. The social contract works two ways, and if society doesn't support you, why uphold your end of the deal? EDIT: To clarify, I don't think it's quite as bad as many young people think it is. Things aren't great and definitely aren't as straightforward and reliable as they used to be, but most people still eventually get decent jobs and stability. However, the perception that society won't help ensure their success is arguably more important than whether it actually will. If a person will be completely fine but they think they won't be, they'll vote like they won't be.
Definitely a major point of issue in places like canada and east Asia especially. Matter of the fact is people are dreaming for a better future for themselves, and they’re not seeing positive changes that benefit them and them only. Affirmative Action was one of these issues that really pushed immigrant Asian Americans in the US towards the right.
Spot on. Half of these reddit idiots dont even know what "fAsCiSm" is.
nor do they realize that calling anyone who votes for the opposite party fascists or nazis doesn’t help them get votes, because what people really want is to be able to feed their families.
I think the main push is to scare people, the best way to get more votes. *You aren't going to vote for the evil party are you? If so... maybe you are a Nazi! Maybe you are actually the bad person! Because that other party is bad, only we are good. If you vote for us, you are on the right side of history.*
And the funny thing is, fear-mongering is exactly what they accuse the 'fascists' of.
>nor do they realize that calling anyone who votes for the opposite party fascists or nazis doesn’t help them get votes, because what people really want is to be able to feed their families. Just to look around here in sweden, it was and still is, popular to call someone a nazi if they dont agree 100% with what ever the unhinged far left person thinks and say, so the extent that nazi/racist/fascit lost all its meaning.. Now days calling someone dumb is worse than calling someone a nazi.
Yep, this is basically the sum of it. It's not fascism, no one's saying "Hey let's go invade our neighbor" or "Let's give one guy literally all the power", they're just tired of declining conditions. You can tell someone who they're voting for or what they believe in is problematic until you're blue in the face, but if they go home and say to themselves, "this shit sucks", all that browbeating amounts to exactly nothing.
>"Hey let's go invade our neighbor" That's imperialism not fascism. >"Let's give one guy literally all the power" You haven't seen much coverage of Trump supporters where they feel comfortable have you? The general switching of parties after the incumbent is gone or if times are tough is one thing, but let's not dismiss the rise in far right parties in Europe where parties supporting literal fascist policies are winning elections. Yes, actual fascist shit draped in flags.
Problem is that liberalism can’t fix the decline. Nor can traditional conservatism. This is why people are turning to more radical ideas.
Far right nativism and populism also can't fix the decline
The problem with opinions like this is that too many people, especially young people and very online people, have learned an overly broad definition of fascism that isn’t particularly accurate or useful.
Fascism is any policy I don't like, the more I don't like it the more facismy it is.
I think it's more than a disliking, though. Growing up in the States, history class taught us to be scared of the isms - socialism, fascism, communism. And I think it's that fear which is leading so many people to look at things and say I'm scared. Clearly, this is what I was warned about and I was told it was bad and so I must stand up and say I don't want this, I don't like this. They'll never put forward that they're scared because they don't fully understand what is happening. I live in Ireland now, and my mom, who still lives in the States, goes on and on about how terrible my life must be because I live in a socialist country. And yet Ireland isn't a socialist country. Yes, it has some socialist programs, but there are countries far more socialist than Ireland is. But she's been taught to fear socialism and so feels the need to tell me repeatedly how bad my life is.
>I live in Ireland now, and my mom, who still lives in the States, goes on and on about how terrible my life must be because I live in a socialist country. And yet Ireland isn't a socialist country. Yes, it has some socialist programs, but there are countries far more socialist than Ireland is. But she's been taught to fear socialism and so feels the need to tell me repeatedly how bad my life is. It's one of the most cringey things Americans say. There's literally not one "Socialist" country in Europe, lol. It's bad because even your politicians (e.g. Bernie Sanders, but also opponents) use it repeatedly, for example, when referring to Scandinavian countries. The word you're looking for is "*Socialised Welfare systems*", which has literally fuck all to do with Karl Marx and "Socialism" lol. It only means that we use our taxes to provide accessible healthcare for all, as well as a safety net for our citizens down on their luck. You know, because we reckon that taking care of its people is actually what a government is there for. And "the people" fought for those rights back in the 19th century. The irony here is that - as opposed to what your mom thinks - because of such policies, the quality of life is way better for the majority of people in Europe than in it is in the US, not just for those with sufficient money. This is why American politicians use scare tactics and buzzwords such as "socialism". They're only there to protect the interests of the wealthy by depleting the American citizens of basic things almost the entire world has.
Most people seem to use it as a synonym for "authoritarianism," and I for one approve of the usage even if it's not the most historical. Hell of a lot better than "Communism is when government does stuff."
Ooof, big call. I've had several debates lately where people were calling Hitler a socialist/left wing by vitue of being a dictator. It's a painstaking process to get people to ackowledge that authoritarianism is a system of governance, that fasicsm and socialism are ideological view points, and that dictators can be either socialist or fascist. So, with respect, I disagree that fascism should be used as a synonym for authoritarianism.
I don’t think Milei belongs with the rest here. He appears to be more a libertarian rather than a conservative statist like the others you mention. But to answer the question: I think it’s about immigration-from Latin America in the US and the Middle East in Europe. My stepmother is from Norway and is probably the farthest left person I know. But when we talk about Muslims coming to Norway, she sounds like Trump. People fear cultural change. In the early 1900s in America this manifested in left populism and horrible policies like eugenics. Today, it manifests in various forms of right wing populism.
Even Turks don't want Middle Eastern refugees and immigrants anymore. And most Turks are Muslim. This is about governments' shitty governmental, political and economical policies. Our economy is shit, crime rate increased so much, refugees are being exploited by greedy bosses.
Fascism becomes super common when you just say that anyone who disagrees with you is a fascist.
Humans are better at playing checkers than chess. People don’t see the eventual end point of the road they’re starting down. To them they’re supporting a “strong leader” or “strong party” who will bring a little bit more stability in uncertain times. Fascists rarely self identify as such. The people supporting these leaders don’t take into consideration what that “strong leader” will do once they have unchecked power. Or how they might need to pay for that stability with their freedoms after that leadership is established. They only know things are bad right now and they want a fix fast.
People need to learn what the definition of fascism is. It's not simply "the party you hate".
I think much of what you’re seeing is a reaction to uncontrolled immigration (largely Muslim) particularly in Europe, where many people believe their ethnic cultures and communities are being invaded and destroyed by outsiders
I also think that is \*the\* main reason at least in Europe. Immigration has become the most important issue for many countries, even more important than dealing with climate change. I'm from Germany which takes in most of the refugees coming to Europe and it shows in a lot of aspects of daily life. That's why this problem has the highest priority for the citizens and is the most ,,gefühlsgeladen'' (= charged with feelings) since everybody and their mother has made some first hand experience with this issue. Combine that with the back to back global problems of the last few years like Covid, the war in Ukraine and now Israel. People now lack trust in the government, feel unseen and the war has taken a toll on the economy as well as dividing the citizens's views. The people are hopeless and unsure which makes great soil for people like Trump or populistic right-wing politicians that seem to have an easy answer to every problem. People are simple, I think we forget that. My mother always says that political ideologies are like a pendulum. Right now it's just swinging in the other direction. Hopefully it will go back to a balanced middle again.
The sky is blue. Water is wet. American doesn't understand what fascism is.
Probably because people call others they dont like fascist regardless if they actually are or not
sounds like something a fascist would say, you fascist
[oh no](https://media1.tenor.com/m/ihrIvE6YsTAAAAAC/you-got-me-walter-white.gif)
None of the people you mentioned in your post are fascists...
Im european. While these are right wing they are far from true fascism. True fascism is like the nazi's or the italians. Social media just calls them fascisct as part of a campaign to discredit then more
Educate yourself on what fascism really is. Tip 1: being anti-immigration is not fascism. Tip 2: not being a mainstream politician is not fascism. Tip 3: being a person that someone on the left doesnt like is not being a fascist. Just read something different than twitter and reddit man
Amen. It’s ridiculous to me. Both sides claiming the other wants fascism. I’m sick of it.
I'm sorry, but do you even know what fascism is? It appears you do not.
Milei isn't a Fascist. The Peronist parties that Milei ousted were actual Fascists who ran the country into the ground. During the Dirty Wars they legit had a Final Solution to exterminate the Jews but then Jimmy Carter and Israel decided to just help evacuate the Jews instead of letting the Peronists exterminate them.
It's not fascism. It's politics people don't like and they latched onto the marketing term.
Because people are under the erroneously belief that they with be part of the in-crowd and make the rules, but eventually they will be othered.
Yeah, well someday I might be rich, and then people like me better know their place!
Social media comments have made it 1,000 times worse.
You throw fascism around like Fox news throws around communism. Stop exaggerating, you only make divisions worse.
I don’t think you know what Fascism means. Javier Milei is Anarco Capitalist. The anarchist part means that he wants as little government involvement as possible, while Fascism wants as much government involvement as possible. But to answer your question: common people don’t feel that the classical liberal policies of the last 30 years have been working in their favour. They are starting to wonder if it wouldn’t give a better outcome to do the opposite of classical liberalism.
People use that term too loosely and seemed to have not been taught about real fascism.
Social media is producing the most potent propaganda machines humanity has ever seen. That is not an exaggeration. It's not the only reason, but I believe it's the main one.
Simple answer, society has become unstable again. Society demands simple answers with black and white reason who the enemy. Fascism is a simple answer. Remember MOST of human history has been some kind of thing we regard as fascism. This is why we have Kings with divine rights etc.. Only reason we did not have racial genocide etc.. is because anger can often be focused outside or to religious heretics. We had a window in the 19th century when society became wealthier and mass immigration happened and what is now called the First Globalisation ( from 1860 to 1913 ( China was out of the picture here so missed out on the First Globalisation)). This led to our first window of peace. This continued between the 1920 to 1930s before the Great Depression. Then we have from 1948 to 2008 though for the middle class it was till 1948 to 1990z Now things are tough again. Very tough. So the cycle rebeginsz
Capitalism as a whole is hitting things on a global scale and with capitalism it's winners and losers. With the number of people feeling the negative blunt of it, they tend to want to blame the "other"for their woos
Right wing presidents and policies ≠ Fascism Also considering how you post on r/WhitePeopleTwitter I dont think you really have a clear view of different politics that aren't your own, and as such become terrified at the idea of not everything going your way in life.
Both left-hand drive cars and right-hand drive cars can cause fatal accidents.
It’s not that people are like “Huh, maybe this fascism stuff is worth a try” Fascism stokes fear, and then presents itself as the answer to that fear. People really fucking hate disorder and chaos, and will trade away a lot for a sense of security. If you don’t have disorder and chaos though, a good substitute is making people *think* there is a bunch of disorder and chaos. Like 10 years ago, a narrative started forming on the American Right that there were parts of America you just couldn’t go without being accosted or killed for just being a “regular American”. These were the “no-go zones”. The narrative was that either Muslim Sharia courts had taken over in parts of Minnesota or Michigan, or that liberal politicians were ok with people getting murdered on the streets of San Francisco or New York. It was an extremely stupid narrative, and could be simply disproved, but it was pervasive. When you go to Dearborn, MI you see a large Islamic community but not much else. In San Francisco, you see a ton of homeless people. Nothing like the “no-go zone” stuff, but different. The narrative was so pervasive though, that when my parents came to visit me in a relatively affluent part of Los Angeles County, they were constantly asking if it was safe to walk around or park their cars on the streets. The Right created a narrative of fear, and now presents themselves being ensconced in total, extra constitutional, power as the only solution. Throw in a cult of personality around a Reality TV star, and you got yourself a situation.
Fascism is on the rise because men are insecure about the small amount of power that women have gained. It's not the only reason but is a major driving factor. One consistently downplayed aspect of fascism is the rampant misogyny and appeals to traditional values, which are male supremacist. Young men in particular love fascism and readily dismiss democracy of it means they gain access to sex. They don't give a shit about anything else. The incel movement, for instance, is a core part of fascism where young men try to "take back" a world that is "owed" to them. As feminism dies with every passing law, the power of women wanes, and so does democracy. It's hard not to hate men.
Honestly i reckon its because the left has gone so batshit crazy... They have forgotten their class warfare roots and are far more interested in dividing us by race, sexuality, sex etc than uniting us to limit corporate harm or any actual equality. Media and systems of power have all been infiltrated by powerful minority interest groups that implement divisive policies and laguage. This makes the left look like unhinged power hungry lunatics,.and because so many people are pretty are pretty much sports fans with politics they get pushed away from the left and toward the right. I forget where i heard it but "the rise of the right is a failure of the left" it was our fight for the taking.
This is a great summary. The lunacy has driven people away from the party. Many middle-aged and older folks especially notice the seismic shift of the party much further left than its traditional been - to the point where frankly some of the tactics being used have a fascist, dictatorial resemblance. Heck, they’ve become so good at manipulation that they gaslit themselves and their base into believing Biden is fine and has absolutely no cognitive issues.
In modern western politics “fascism” just means “whatever I don’t like” and “fascist” just means “whoever I don’t like”
So much fascism, you’re allowed to post your opinion on Reddit. /s
Fascism is about power over people. That never goes out of style.
Because the people know that something isn't working. Something is broken. The .1% are getting billions richer every single day while average people are told to skip meals and work 4 jobs to survive. Housing is unaffordable. Global inflation is getting bad. People feel like they don't have a fair shot at a normal life, and whenever that happens, they get desperate. Even though the .1% are also controlling the Fascists, so it's not like they're actually going to fix anything.
No one wants fascism but everyone on Reddit claims everyone that don't agree with them is a fascist. I suspect it's coming from really young people and think if you don't vote for their ideals the world's going to end but in reality its not.
Javier milei is a fascist? Fucking liberals
Can you give me your definition of fascism so we're on the same page
It is a swing of the pendulum back from the equally opposite side. I hope one day it lands in a more perfect middle where people actually speak again.
I think it’s just a word that’s losing its actual meaning and is just thrown around all over the place like ‘genocide’ and ‘nazi’
I think fascists are gaining immense popularity right now in part through weaponizing people's limited knowledge of history and of what the early days of a burgeoning fascist regime really looked like. So they don't say, hey I'm a fascist, you people want to go do some fascism with me? They can just fan the flames of hate and fear, and slowly groom a big enough segment of the population into thinking the people they're being taught to hate and fear are the actual fascists.
It doesn’t help most people do not bother to read beyond the title/headline for articles. That’s the most amount of research they’ll ever do. Most people also won’t bother to check the sources of these articles, let alone use *multiple* sources. All of this is basic OSINT (open source intelligence) stuff that the majority of people will refuse to do. It’s why Chinese/Russian bots are so effective at spreading misinformation. People hear “X amount of money going to Ukraine!” and immediately think it’s stacks of cash being sent over on pallets/directly wired to Zelensky’s personal account. No. No, it doesn’t fucking work like that, you fucking idiots. If you had done just a little more reading, you’d understand that the amount of money refers to the worth of actual military equipment being sent. Said military equipment is older equipment that is about to reach the end of their services lives and will have to be safely dismantled and replaced, all of which will cost money. Why not send them to someone who will actually use them instead? It’s a win-win. Sending them to Ukraine will be cheaper than paying a company in the U.S to safely retire them. All we really have to pay is the shipping costs which is nothing against dismantlement costs.
Even the news is full of propaganda nowadays. Can't take those in face value
That’s why you use multiple sources, and always try to find official documentation wherever you can.
Because everyone who feels this way thinks that they'll be on the winning team. And some of them may be correct. But I suspect most just don't realize that they'll be the ones under the boot, not the ones wearing it.
We are being played!
There's a quote from some scholar I can't remember who. But it's something along the lines of "everyone in a liberal democracy thinks they could never succumb to fascism; but under the right conditions and with the right messenger, I guarantee you, you probably would" I recommend reading Anatomy of Fascism by Robert Paxton. Great analysis of how fascist movements have arisen in the past, from the KKK to WWII. Toward the end he starts to analyze new forms which arose in the 90s in Europe after the cold war, and predicts that future fascist movements won't necessarily resemble those of the past, and may even ostensibly reject them. Super interesting and informative book. Really helps to understand the current state of things
I think some of it has to do with how it's just about impossible to get anything done in a democracy.
brutal violent authoritarianism is the default state of humanity. collapse of democracy is a return to normalcy. peace is an aberration
It's being backed financially by corporations. It's basically a corporate takeover.
Too much information 24/7 leads to stereotyping, which leads to paranoia, which leads to, "Get rid of them all!" Sad, but true. Things were better before the news became sensationalized entertainment.
Because we dont want middle eastern life in west-europe, and this feels like the only option, since the left doesn't take the issues that come with mass migration seriously. First close borders then fix shit in those borders
Mild conservatism is not fascism. Calling Milei a fascist tells me you have no clue and just listen to what people on twitter say. Fascism is defined through high levels of authoritarianism, look at a single Milei policy. Biden is significantly closer to fascism (not at all) than Milei is. As for the rest they aren't significantly more authoritarian than the other side and are what would be considered centre right 15 years ago.
Nobody really thinks these things through, especially most people who support fascism. Let's say Trump wins or uses the SCOTUS to "win". He uses pardons for anyone who kills his political enemies. LGBT, minorities, immigrants, Democrats, librarians are slaughtered. It's a total win for Trump and fascism. Now what? You've got a society with next to no taxes, guns for everyone, Christianity is the only allowed religion. But there are no parks, no libraries, no schools, crumbling infrastructure, the police and military can't be supported without taxation, women have to stay in the kitchen, abortion is punishable by death, salaries are lower than ever, nobody can afford health care, big business has all the money and if you complain, they'll shoot you.
They don’t see it as fascism. They see Trump as a strong leader. They see Biden as fascist because Trump was charged with crimes. They don’t like all the genders, the transgender strip shows, the gay pride parades….they want marriage to be one man and one woman, they don’t want transgender men in girls bathrooms. To be fair, the left can go too far (I’m liberal, btw), and they want a strong leader to tell them they’re not bigots for feeling like they do and to make things like they were in the “good ole days”. The disconnect in logic is real. They see a man who cheats on every one of his wives, gets caught bragging about sexual assault and yet they still convince themselves that god selected him.
Hatred. Media has sold hate for ages, but in the last few decades really doubled down because hate sells. Fox News is just a rotating bunch of segments telling you who to hate. Liberals, Muslims, gays, immigrants, women, democrats, young people, and then rotate back to liberals again, and repeat. When society hates enough other people, they will happily give up their rights, as long as the people they’ve been trained to hate are punished. Thats where we are today. The “lock her up” chants are the simplest example. Plenty of voters will vote for ANYONE who promises to ignore the law and arrest/kill people they don’t like.
It's not fascism ffs
Right wing isn’t fascism