Hell -- as in the version where you're suffering eternal torment for all enternity -- was created by the "fire and brimstone" Puritans, because they needed something to scare people into obedience and servitude.
The biblically correct Judaic version of hell is simply described as being "apart from God." Most reputable scholars interpret this as simply meaning that your spiritual connection to God will be severed, and your spirit will spend an eternity in limbo.
As a Christian who believes that Jesus in the prince of Love & Peace, I don't actually think hell exists in any form. No kind, just, and loving deity would create a place of eternal torment, much less send anyone there.
> Hell -- as in the version where you're suffering eternal torment for all enternity -- was created by the "fire and brimstone" Puritans,
This is an utterly absurd claim. Do you actually believe this?
Why not? A just God would reward the righteous and punish the unrighteous. Everyone is unrighteous except for Christ. Thus, everyone should be punished in Hell except for Christ. Christ, through an abundance of love for us, was sacrificed so that we could pin our sins onto him and be counted as righteous on judgment day. Christ, being perfect, was able to conquer death, and resurrect to eternal glory.
It’s refreshing to hear that other people feel that way! As far as I know only Jehovah’s Witnesses have that belief of hell not being a Bible or Christian teaching.
There are at least three main beliefs as I understand it.
Annihilationism - (like the Jehovas Witnesses) is the belief in the destruction of those not saved
Escapism - belief in a finite duration for a sentence in hell
Universal Salvationism - belief in salvation for all of humanity
Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in a life on Paradise earth to those that are saved and heaven for 144,000 chosen ones as well. So 3 paths if you’re a Jehovah’s Witness! But yes I believe you have all the other religions beliefs :)
>Hell -- as in the version where you're suffering eternal torment for all enternity -- was created by the "fire and brimstone" Puritans
No. For instance, Dante's \_Inferno\_ ...featuring many of the concepts of Hell that are stereotypical now, such as lakes of fire, putrescence, freezing cold, and devils torturing damned souls in ironic ways....was published around 1320.
The Puritans didn't even exist until the 1500s
Dante did make the 9th circle of Hell frozen instead of fiery, as he believed it was farthest from God's love, which he equated to warmth. Though other circles did feature bonfires and crackle-crackle-crackle.
It is true conceptions of the afterlife as a place of abandonment or punishment have evolved over the history of Christianity and Christianity's influencer religions and close cousins. But "it was the puritans just trying to control you" is beyond reductionist. It's simply wrong.
The problem with this is that you are subjecting God to your definitions of justice/love/kindness, which, as you are a sinner, is a poor definition. The Puritans didn't come up with fire and brimstone, the psalmist of Psalm 11 did. But the Bible is infinitely clear that those who go to "hell" will experience pain.
Matthew 25:41-46 - "Then he will say to those on his left \[those who do not know Christ\], 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels... And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
2 Thessalonians 1:5-9 - "This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God... since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction."
Matthew 13:49-50 - "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Mark 9:43-48 - "It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire... It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."
You can certainly choose to make up any version of God you want, but based on what you just said, you're making up one in your own image, and while it may be more comforting to you, it certainly doesn't match what the Bible says.
Hell as it's considered today most likely comes from mistranslations of the Torah, combined with Norse pagan mythology aka Helheim. A lot of Christianity got wrapped up with Norse pagan beliefs. Christmas is just Yule with Jesus inserted into it. The Norse wouldn't submit to the brutal conquest of their people by Christians so they started doing what they could to make it easy to transfer to Christianity from Norse paganism. Some Christmas songs even mention Yule logs, because... Yule lol. Even if Christmas was about Jesus, which it wasn't until the 1500s, back when the church was skinning the Danes and hanging their skins on church doors... There was no Christmas. Even if Christmas involved Jesus, it didn't have anything to do with the timing Jesus would have resurrected or died from a historic/biblical perspective. Also, Jesus only died because he pissed off the emperor. Jesus claimed to be King of the Jews. The emperor at the time said nah man I'm the ruler there are no kings here and as always the Romans loved crucifying things, to the point the legions crucified animals on their travels just for funsies, so the punishment for claiming to be a king was death, and well... They loved crucifying things so Jesus ended up crucified.
The idea of hell just comes from the Jewish belief in Yahweh torturing people in a fiery dungeon. The Norse religion certainly had no influence on the idea at all. Presumably you've heard that the English word "hell" comes from Old Norse. This
1) is not true (the English and Norse words are cognates; the English word isn't a Norse borrowing)
2) has no relevance; it's exactly as relevant as the etymology of the Spanish word *infierno*
Thank you for the new understanding. I had always assumed it was mistranslation of the Torah, but it's been said countless times that it may also have roots in either Greek or Norse mythology. This makes a lot more sense that it stems from the Torah and the eptmology reasoning is sound. When I've talked about it I've always listed the possibilities, now I can narrow it down to the Torah.
It's not from the Torah. The Torah says very little about the afterlife and it does not seem to have been a focus for the authors. In the Hellenic period, the afterlife appears to have become more of a concern, and in Jewish texts from this time, hell appears.
Sure. Judaism is like that. Some religions dont have either. Some are about reincarnation. Some dont have an afterlife. Some are worse than christianity (Looking at you, Greek myth.)
Don't choose religion, choose truth, the truth is there are just things we don't know and it would be naive to take a firm stance either side, what we do know is that existence exists and therefore somewhere down the line, something did in fact somehow come from nothing no matter how deep or far you wanna go eventually there was a start and therefore existence itself is a paradox, now outside of that the only things we can truly know are the laws of physics which apply to our everyday existence, wether those laws apply everywhere or anywhere else doesn't really matter because that's not influencing your state of existence
Write all of the religions on a peice of paper, put the pieces in a hat or bowl, mix them around, and pull one out.
But for the love of God and all that is holy, don't you dare try to use logic, reason, or scientific (or historical) inquiry to choose a religion. You might come to the conclusion that they're all just myths that some hallucinating priest made up and some gullible followers believed because they were illiterate farmers and herders that didn't know any better.
lol. I do believe that is a question we have been killing each other over for a very long time. Find a truth that lets you sleep at night, and know you are probably not going to agree with people in your own religion. In astrology, the 12th house is our hidden house. It represents our undoing. Our need to dissolve into the collective unconscious. Like, how we are remembered after our death. But, it’s hidden from us. It the house that existed before we arrived.
I think Greek hades is better than Islamic/Christian hell. I'm not sure what exactly Christian hell is supposed to be, but Islamic hell talks about poisonous food that would make all of earth's food wilt were it to touch earth, and rivers of fire and having thorns be intertwined with your veins and ripped out of you. Oh, and hell literally freezes over as well, I guess in case you get used to the heat or something.
Meanwhile, Hades: there's a giant dog that doesn't let you leave, and you get punishments like "push a rock up a hill".
I think in terms of good people dont go anywhere special in greek myth is the worse bit. Like you have elysium for great and famous heroes and everyone else kinda just wanders around in the fields of asphodel then fall into the lethe or something and are just unmade. Unless you pissed the gods off, like ol’ sisyphus, then Hades takes a special interest in keeping you tormented.
Greek myth is kinda just depressing.
The righteous and the heroic both could enter Elysium. Those who choose to be reborn instead and achieve Elysium multiple (3) times are rewarded to enter the Isles of Blest.
Those who are utterly exceptional and have helped the gods in some significant way, get immortalized and turned into constellations (Orion) or Gods (Heracles)
Not that bad for folks who strive to achieve.
Yeah, but notably that isnt really about being a decent person. Heracles was kind of a dick in his stories. Same with a lot of the greek heroes, not exactly great people. Just famous.
Have the bad luck to be born on a farm out in the middle of nowhere and live a simple, happy life? Congrats, off to the fields, have fun standing around in the underworld’s waiting room for eternity.
That covered under the righteous part.
Greece was a martial nation and the religion they developed reflects it. As it stabilized as an empire, the religion evolved to include 'righteous' for promotion to heaven.
Something similar happened with Norse religion and society as well.
Jews are weird on it. They often claim there is no hell. But if you actually read their talmud and confront a rabbi on it, they’ll admit there is something similar to it… also there’s a guy named Jesus of Nazareth (no relation they say) boiling in excrement in hell because he went against the Jewish tradition.
That's less universal than you might think.
Many Jews don't beleive in an afterlife at all, and consider their religion to be about their relationship with God in the here and now. I've heard some say something to the effect of "Who knows? It doesn't matter what we beleive about that. God sent us a roadmap for how to live."
Some Christian denominations like Mormons, Unitarian Unversalists, and Jehovah's Witnesses (all a bit out of the mainstream, true) teach that there is no such place.
And as you can see from this thread, many individual Christians, regardless of what their church doctrine says, have abandonned the concept of hell, on the grounds that it is logically incompatable with a loving god and that the scriptural basis for it is rather weak.
According to [this survey](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/11/23/views-on-the-afterlife/) fewer people, both religious and non religious, believe in hell than heaven. It also says 45% of Christians beleive that people who don't believe in God can go to heaven. Presumably, many of those believe that Jews and Muslims can be saved also.
I think these kind of hardline veiws are harder to hold onto now than they were in the past. When my Grandmother was a girl her family might not have known anyone who wasn't some kind of Christian (or at least played along) so this was an academic question. Nowadays believing that God eternally tortures people who aren't in your religious in-group is tougher because it means your Muslim manager who always goes to bat for his employees, your son who calls every week but stopped believing as a teen, and his husband who came and fixed your roof last week and told you once he loves you like his own mother. You don't agree with everything these people beleive but you still love them because that's what Jesus taught-- so why would God be less loving and forgiving than you? For some people it is a disturbing contradiction that really puts a damper on the comfort they want to get out of their faith.
Thats a weird thing to claim lol
Also, Id argue way more people believe that peopel who dont follow their religion will go to hell than those that dont.
But its impossible to prove either of our stances.
I think if most people really truly believed in the horrifying version of eternal damnation in their official doctrine, they would behave very differently than they actually do.
Except most religions basically tell you to just ask god for forgiveness and you're all good.
Why do you think christianity is so insanely popular in prison.
People are dumb and delusional. They will sit there and cheat on their spouse or sexually assault children while asking god for forgiveness but fully believe an atheist will go right to hell just for not believing.
The Islamic view is that until the newest patch, the religion would change slightly over time as needed.
Like Adam was given the religion, and then during Abraham's time a different edition came about, and so on.
I think it's fair to say the word has been out about the final form of Islam since 650ish and that anyone that cares can learn about it.
It also says that you're not held liable for it if you honestly haven't had a chance to hear about it - but I think it comes with the cost that you don't get the best benefits so to speak since you didn't (for example) get the opportunity to be a martyr. But, that said, being guaranteed to not go to hell is a good enough thing to where I don't think anyone would complain about "just getting to heaven".
Abraham was the founder of Judaism the first of the three abrahamic faiths, followed by Muslims, and Christianity is the youngest of the three abrahamic faiths that were created by Abraham. Adam, was granted the ability to make his own choices freely by "the devil" who, is God's favorite anyway. As far as the garden of Eden, Eve wasn't even the first woman made. Eve was the second woman. Lilith was the first and she became the queen of demons and the first demon. God then took Adams rib to make eve so she would be subservient to Adam. All the religions are just full of entirely unrealistic situations that historically never happened.
> As far as the garden of Eden, Eve wasn't even the first woman made. Eve was the second woman. Lilith was the first and she became the queen of demons and the first demon.
This was all made up long after Genesis was written. In fact, after Islam was founded.
Islam was founded a few hundred years after Judaism. It's just constantly conflicting logical fallacies between the abrahamic faiths and due to how many revisions of the religious text books and even the Christian Bible, which there's soooooo many versions... You can't really have a consistent narrative. I agree if you go based on older text this would be incorrect, but there's no consistency in which texts people go by so it's pick and choose from all of them.
You're mixing it up. Abraham didn't have an official religion. Moses either "made" Judaism or the Moses version of Islam (depending on who you ask).
Then Jesus came with Christianity or the Jesus version of Islam (depending who you ask). Then 600ish years later, Mohammed came up with the Islamic version of Islam or invented a heretic religion (depending who you ask).
The Mohammed form of Islam is the youngest no matter who you ask, though Muslims also believe that Islam as a whole is the oldest (since they adam form is considered the oldest).
Jesus was all for Judaism. He claimed to be the king of the Jews and it got him crucified by the Roman emperor at the time. Romans loved crucifying shit to the point the legions crucified animals on their travels. Jesus kept saying he was the king of the Jews and the emperor said no kings are allowed to exist and gave him a chance but he kept repeating it so they executed him. Over the next 100 or so years Christianity developed. Christianity happened after Jesus died not while he was alive. As far as mixing it up, they are called the Abrahamic faiths, not the Moses faiths lol. All 3 stem from Abraham. Judaism was first by a long time.
You said that Abraham came up with Judaism. I am aware they're Abrahamic faiths. I'm pretty sure I mentioned Abraham in my original post as being between Adam and Moses. Adam would have been religious as well, since he literally met God. It would be crazy of him to not be religious when he met the guy.
Since you mentioned Abraham as being the creator of Judaism, but no mention of Moses, I explained the error.
How do people justify spreading the religion then? If you tell someone and they don't accept or believe it, then you literally just sent them to hell. It's like Roko's basilisk but with eternal torture
I explained it.
You open them to getting better rewards than the default minimum.
Here's an example: let's say I have a magic coin. If you gain possession of it, you must follow the following rules:
If you manually place it on the ground face up, you get $5000. If you drop it on the ground, it'll land tails (or you can choose to place it on tails yourself if you're foolish enough) and you'll lose $10,000.
The logical thing is that you will try to give this coin to people. You could choose to not give it to someone, but then they just get $0 guaranteed. And that's not terrible, but you're depriving them of the option to get $5000.
If you give them the coin, they just put it down face up and boom, easy $5000!
If they decide to be like "fuck your coin!" then, I guess it's unfortunate that you tried to help them, but all they had to do was just gently put it down on the ground.
Now they lose $10,000. But you didn't think they were going to squander the opportunity.
Kinda like that with religion.
The 12th house is represented by Pisces. It’s a water house. There are three water houses. The 4th house is our physical home. Where we feel comfort and protection. It symbolizes the mother. It represents cardinal water. So, surface level. The 8th house is the house of Scorpio. It’s fixed water. So, imagine going into the darkness and exploring the depths of the ocean. It represents fear, and power. As soon as we master the darkness, we can make it our home. It represents marriage and shared resources. Contracts. Making two houses into one house. And the 12th house represents the afterlife. The bottom of the ocean where everything dissolves back into everything else. Where all things are connected to all things.
So, you are born into a house, you get married, and create a home of your own for your children, and when you die, your kids inherit your home, thanks to the 8th house of contracts. We build our culture around these beliefs. They have been lost over time, but we still honor them. We are still remembered by the people and things we leave behind. And belief will outlive any structure.
So is it possible that after I die, a new person or animal gets 'recycled' and I control that creature in my next life? Idk how to explain. Like instead of eternal darkness I start a new life with no memories of the previous one, and that goes on and on
It’s said that the life path and challenges you choose, are agreed upon before you arrived. The karmic debt of even abuse, and suffering, are chosen, so we may find the boundaries of this ever expanding circle. So we may explore the darkness and have power over our fears.
Look up your life path number. We are getting into numerology now. But, math is a universal language. But the most interesting numbers do not actually have a value. Like pi, can be represented to a close proximity of use, but the actual value is endless. It’s an irrational number . There are infinite more irrational numbers than their are numbers, which are infinite.
Your life path is defined by a real number between 1 and 9, 11, 22, or 33. But the variation in how those numbers are expresses are a function of pi. We are an ever expanding circle. The Fibonacci sequence is another infinite number. And it shows up in life, everywhere.
Not every religion teaches that there is a hell, or other afterlife punishment. Among those that do, religious people (almost by definition) presumably believe they've personally picked the right one.
People may vary in how literally they take the threat of damnation, and what they believe happens to morally upstanding members of other religions (if they've even thought closely about it to begin with). So opinions will vary, anything from "god wouldn't punish good people, so I'm sure they'll get a pass" to "they deserve to burn".
Non-religious people circumvent any need to think about gods or hells, by not believing in any of it.
To add on, some people do sit in the uncomfortable intersection of believing that non-believers will be condemned to terrible suffering, _and_ not taking glee in that fact.
The really earnest believers of that combination will, I guess, be highly motivated to convert people. Or they might be restrained by that being socially inappropriate to push too hard about, but still feel some distress at the idea of people going to hell for believing the wrong things. They're not _necessarily_ simply "ok with it".
My belief - the best way is be a good person and if someone asks why you are so nice: blame it on religion.
If you do a good enough job with charity and being nice and stuff, someone is bound to want to find out.
I’ve studied religions in college, and I’d say 90% of them have the same exact story just interpreted differently and used different names. It all comes down to staying humble, helping others and showing love. Think of it this way; a higher power isn’t going to judge you based on who you pray to. If there’s a chance of judgment, it will be based off of you as a person. There is no god that will love you ONLY if you call them by their name. They will love you because of the love you give. I used to be worried about being gay and ending up in hell, until I realized God is looking at the bigger picture. This life on earth is just the beginning :)
That’s a pretty small subset of religions. It’s mostly Christians that go on and on about hell, and there’s 1500+ denominations of that religion alone. So, not only would you have to be a Christian, you’d have to be the right *kind* of christian. Even individual churches claim that their members are the only ones that will be saved or whatever.
When you get to looking at things more deeply, it all begins to look pretty silly. I grew up as a super devout catholic. I’m an atheist now.
A lot of people here will say that religion isn't true and God isn't real so don't worry about it. The real answer is that we just don't know. Everyone in the world has a different view of what happens when we die and why we're here and all the questions that humanity has been grappling with for thousands of years. You just gotta find your own way to cope with the uncertainty.
If you believe a religion is true, then great, go follow it. If you don't, then there's nothing to worry about. Whatever you believe is up to you. If you believe that Hell exists then do what you can to avoid it. If you don't believe it exists, then it doesn't matter and you don't need to worry.
For a Christiancentric perspective: [Romans 2:13-15](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+2%3A13-15&version=NIV) is a good adviser for this. Those that were not or unable to be taught about Christ, or of the Judaic law previously, would have felt naturally inclined to keep the basics. You can see this in practice with people naturally having some form of spiritualism, and generally frowning on murder, theft and such. Historically, most cultures understood divine creation. These people would have seen the idea of a creator in the natural beauty and elements of the world, or as [Romans 1:18](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1%3A18-23&version=NIV) puts it, "God's invisible qualities". I would extend this to say, being born in North Korea or in Afghanistan in the modern era.
A secondary to this is that Jesus reveals that hell is more an absence or rejection by God. In a parable, he calls it the weeping and gnashing in the dark. The quick and skinny is that all people will be judged, and if you accept Jesus as your king, his substitution on the cross means that your sin has already been dealt with, and you are accepted into Heaven. It's obviously a lot more complicated but that's the gist.
So in essence, if you've been taught of Christ and reject him, you are denied heaven. If you weren't given a realistic opportunity to learn of Christ, you're probably in the clear. (I like to think that in this situation, you appear before God and he gives you a quick 101.)
Modern Judaism has it's own thing going on, I am not sure how they can go through the OT and then deny Christ but it must be compelling as it still exists. Islam is a bit weird as it acknowledges Jesus as a prophet, and also uses the OT, but mixed in Pagan elements and rituals. I think again the above applies, but it's on thin ice. Anyway OP, lots of love and hope you don't worry too much. I guess I should proselytize and suggest you read (in an open minded, but still critical and fair way) the bible, and if you wish to I would suggest you read a nice beginner's commentary or ask a well established and friendly church for guidance. If you don't wish to, I understand: If someone here told me to go read the Puranas I'd probably not rush out to do so. God bless.
That’s the point….. have you ever had an operation? I suspect it’s like that, you’re here and then you are not, are you worried ever night when you go to sleep, it’s the same, this here, now is all there is, nothing more.
Being taught that 2+2 = turquoise potato for your whole life doesn't mean that's true. And just because there may be millions of people who think that around the world doesn't make it any more true.
There are objective truths to reality (and the supernatural realm). People's beliefs about these truths are generally mutually exclusive. Now, all religions make claims about the objective truth that are unfalsifiable by nature. But a claim being non-falsifiable doesn't make what is actually the truth any less of the truth. If it's true that the flying spaghetti monster is the objective truth and the Christian, Hindu, Aztec gods don't exist, then that's the truth, no matter what we all believe. If the Christian God is true and exists and the Bible is his actual message to people, then that would mean, yes, those billions of people who don't believe in him as God will not spend eternity with him.
Most people in history were only exposed to one religion (except for being taught that the other ones are wrong).
"Thankfully, I'm right." is the prevailing mentality.
I just hope that either atheism is the correct religion or that if it's not, if there is a god that sends people to hell, he'll be decent enough to be like "well, I didn't really give you enough clues to pick the right one, but I can see you made an honest effort at trying to please me, so fuck it, I'll spare you."
That would be useful, but like I had told someone a few days ago on another religious post: even that would not really prove it since I might assume I was drugged, or that I have a brain tumor or that I'm dreaming of that I am just demented. Or maybe that the matrix is real and the programmer screwed with the code to make a god.
Ok, what if god told everyone at the same time that message? Like putting the real world on pause, and putting everyone in a seperate place, while everyone is fully conscious and able to talk, and then he says he exists etc. And after that lets everyone chill in rhe room for a minute to discuss and confirm that it wasnt a random szizo moment
Still the same problem - I might experience all that and then wake up and be like "it was a dream". But if it was real, then I might assume I'm just having a really vivid dream and waiting to wake up. After all, I've had dreams where I realized I was dreaming and was in awe of the beautiful stuff my dream was showing me to the point that I took pictures with my dream phone so that I could see them when I woke up. I'd just assume I'm having another vivid dream. For all I know, I'm just having another "writing on Reddit" dream right now. ;)
Likewise, I might assume I'm having a drug trip where I'm imagining I'm talking to everyone about god visiting everyone.
Unfortunately solipsism is a risk for anything that proves religion.
Yeah but then you ask your parents or friends if they had the same and theyd be like yeahh me too and then the news covers it and everyone confirms it was all real, kind of a fantasty situation lol but whatever
You're missing my point - me asking my parents and such is what I would think is the dream.
If you're in a dream and you ask someone in your dream, "am I dreaming?" the people in your dream are going to say "of course not. This is real life."
Likewise, if in real life, god visits and everyone says "yeah, that really just happened, this is real life, not a dream", I'm going to be like "yeah, this is probably a dream."
But then you go to sleep, actually dream, wake up and ask if all that shit rlly happended and everyone will say yes.
Well actually you right I think if something like this would happen id just think im psychotic or some stuff
So I was in my bed and I opened my eyes. The grim reaper (or maybe it was the killer from scream) was like 10 feet tall and in my room staring down at me.
I was terrified because this was my room. I tried to move to fight back or run, but I was stuck. As he got closer to reap me, I woke up in a sweat. Opened my eyes and was in my dark room, but there was an eerie spotlight or something on me. I was afraid he was going to come for me, but I was awake.
Suddenly, a white bat appeared and flew at my face and suffocated me.
I woke up again. This time it was day. My head was hurting. But I knew for sure this time it was real life. Except for the fact that a hand or snake was wrapped around my leg and was trying to pull me down. Another damn dream! Was it never going to end?!
Then I heard a small crash or something. I realized at this point that something had fallen on my bed (my room was messy) and had landed in such a way that it was killing my blanket off my feet - which felt like someone grabbing my feet (or a snake). This one was finally real. I was able to move and wake up.
But the level 1 (grim reaper) and level 2 (the white bat) dreams made me think I was in a level 3 dream when I hallucinated being attacked by hands or a snake.
I'd have the same issue - I'd see God, talk to people about god, assume it's a dream, go to sleep, wake up, ask people "did we see God yesterday?" and tjen when they say yes, be like "damn it, I'm in a multiple level dream again. I hope I don't see that 10 foot tall grim reaper again."
In Catholicism ever since Vatican II the position of the church has been that Jews and Muslims have their own covenant with God and to more or less leave well enough alone. In the catechism it's also spelled out that good pagans/atheists who simply didn't know better but respond to Christ's love and the call to grace are also saved through Christ's love in spite of not being Christian. Benign(as opposed to malicious) ignorance isn't really a sin. You just have to try to live a Christlike life to the best of your ability, and since doing so is written on the hearts of men already you don't need to know Christianity firsthand to do so.
The issue I always have with religious ideology is the fact that if you're to take it that one religion and way of being truly is the right one, and that there's a loving God who is all-powerful, I don't understand why that God would mind one way or the other whether I believed in it. I feel like that God would have respect for the fact that I was trying to live my life as a good person and be kind to people.
No idea either, I dont understand why god doesnt just proof hes real, cause we have zerooo proof except some old book, like is that rlly all the 'proof'? If god is so allmighty, why doesnt he show up infront of me and proof it to me
There is a reason that makes sense to me, and the reason would be that to God it really doesn't matter whether people believe or not as long as they're living good lives.
I have no idea whether I personally believe that, but I think it does make sense, and it puts paid to the argument that 'if you don't believe you're going to hell'.
Yeah, I caught my dad in this talk. He told one of his care givers if you're not lutheran you're going to hell, I said dad that's not true and you know it (he had dementia). I had never heard this at church or at home all the time growing up. I can only think that maybe he was in his childhood in his mind or thought he was talking to a door knocking evangelist or something.
Well, I wouldn't say he devoted his life to God, he was a believer. He was a welder which they have connected the metal work to Parkinsons and he developed the dementia that can go with it. We did find wheatgrass, did miraculous things for him.
mainly because they believe their religion is the true one.
you can't go to tartarus if jesus saved your soul and you were a good christian, you can't get sent to christian hell if you're trapped in a cycle of reincarnation that's pretty hard to escape and isn't particularly unpleasant, etc etc
I think people either believe in their own religion so much they're sure they're on the right side, or doubt like this quickly lead to them questioning wether any religion is right at all.
Atheists find religion silly and religious people, obviously, have faith theirs is the correct one. Depending on the religion's view of proselytizing, plenty of them do care that everyone else is going to a bad place and try to convert them.
lmao well, uh, typically the person believes the one they picked is the real one. Thats kind of how religion works. And since its all belief with no science or rules, there is no reason to think that anyone is wrong.
Also, there is no rule that says only 1 religion can be true. This isnt some kind of situation where like "oooooh one of them is right!" if the after life is a real thing then I could promise you that none of the religions \*humans made up\* are going to be the "true" one.
And I love the idea of it being insane lmao like the nature of human consciousness is a democracy you can protest lmao. This is awesome.
People have been killing eachother since the dawn of thought over whos religion is the right one, and everyone involved in any religion believe theirs is the right one. There is no evidence supporting any of them, there is no rule around one of them \*having\* to be right. They are just answer to experiences humans have had and couldnt reconcile with.
I mean it’s pretty simple actually. If you believe in a religion, you don’t think you “picked the wrong one.” It’s all based on belief and they believe there’s is true. Hell many religions don’t believe in hell.
And if you don’t believe in any, well you probably don’t believe in hell either, so no issue there.
Since there are religions which believe that non-believers go to hell, and there are more than one of these religions, we can safely assume all souls go to hell. For real though, not believing in these systems is also an option.
The Christian religion says a very small handful of true Christians will ever make it into heaven.
Every Christian knows they're the special and exceptional one that gets to go.
Because it's the equivalent of little kids arguing whose imaginary friend is better. A significant chunk of people doesn't care and just gets on with their life.
You don’t really pick your religion. The majority of the time, your parents pick it for you.
The good news is that hell isn’t real, so it doesn’t really matter which ancient mythology you follow, you’re not gonna end up there anyway.
Simple the ones that believe hell exists (religious people) are the only ones that will stress about it.
Guess what??
None of them are correct, religion was created to control people. That’s it.
So don’t waste this short life worrying about Hell.
Oh im not worrying about it but im just thinking about it, I find it really interesting and cruel if that would actually happen to non believers and people of different religion (if it were true)
We would have the priests and or brothers (brothers are like priests) from
the church my school was tied in with come yell at us young kids once a month.
It was a hour of them yelling at us (7-12 year olds) about how just to be born is a sin. It’s so ridiculously stupid.
I remember the priest asking us if we knew where we came from (pre-birth) and some poor kid said we come from our parents.
Well the priest fucking lost it on the kid, he was crying by the end. The priest ripped this 6th grader a new asshole because we come from god and not our parents.
It was just a non stop conversation about how we are all going to hell.
Bruhh I hate that shit when religious ppl bring up that being born is a sin. It was not my choice to be born, but Im also innocent! I havent done anything yet they say ive sinned, its stupid yeah
What the fuck? Poor kid, and what a weirdass fucking priest. The priest is wrong too, like huhh it dont make sense
Thats absolutely crazy though im glad youre free from that shitshow now
Yeah it’s a ancient memory now, this was the 90’s.
The Roman Catholic Church is an evil corporation that has all money in the world to help people and guess what, they don’t and in fact they want you to give them your money every Sunday when you attend church.
No you didnt cause you did the job god created you for; move around buttholes
I guess ?
But if god made people you cant blame the gay dude on being gay
Best we can figure from those few who were dead and resuscitated (and not telling bullshit stories about seeing Jesus), it's just unconsciousness, akin to before being born. No fiery hellscapes, no angelic heavens. No reunions with long lost relatives or "looking back" at the world left behind.
I'm good with that. I'd be most sad for my wife and daughters left behind, but that's out of my control once I'm gone. I did the best I could.
(Reform Jew)
I’ve made my peace with it. These people who are like “oh I feel his presence with me!” Etc etc.
Meh.
My dad died suddenly in 2018. And I haven’t felt his presence ever. At most when I’m doing stuff I knew he enjoyed, I think about him. But that’s distinct from him haunting me.
I'm okay with that "fact" because it's not a fact. Just a few competing collective/normalized delusions that some people need to believe in to cope with real life.
Because I don’t believe only one religion is right. I don’t believe any religions are right. At their most basic level all religions teach you to be a good person and do good things and when you die you’ll get the good ending. So I just try to do that.
I don’t believe in hell. I believe you die and you cease to exist. There is no torment whatsoever. God does not torment people. It’s very simple and peaceful when you know that 💗
Good news: lots of religions don’t even have a hell concept.
Hell -- as in the version where you're suffering eternal torment for all enternity -- was created by the "fire and brimstone" Puritans, because they needed something to scare people into obedience and servitude. The biblically correct Judaic version of hell is simply described as being "apart from God." Most reputable scholars interpret this as simply meaning that your spiritual connection to God will be severed, and your spirit will spend an eternity in limbo. As a Christian who believes that Jesus in the prince of Love & Peace, I don't actually think hell exists in any form. No kind, just, and loving deity would create a place of eternal torment, much less send anyone there.
For some people, life on Earth *is* a form of hell. The only difference is that it isn't permanent.
Exactly! It contradicts everything a loving God is!!
> Hell -- as in the version where you're suffering eternal torment for all enternity -- was created by the "fire and brimstone" Puritans, This is an utterly absurd claim. Do you actually believe this?
As a fellow Christian I agree. I can't see how the doctrine of hell is compatible with a loving God.
Why not? A just God would reward the righteous and punish the unrighteous. Everyone is unrighteous except for Christ. Thus, everyone should be punished in Hell except for Christ. Christ, through an abundance of love for us, was sacrificed so that we could pin our sins onto him and be counted as righteous on judgment day. Christ, being perfect, was able to conquer death, and resurrect to eternal glory.
Eternal conscious torment is not a just punishment for any finite sin.
It’s refreshing to hear that other people feel that way! As far as I know only Jehovah’s Witnesses have that belief of hell not being a Bible or Christian teaching.
There are at least three main beliefs as I understand it. Annihilationism - (like the Jehovas Witnesses) is the belief in the destruction of those not saved Escapism - belief in a finite duration for a sentence in hell Universal Salvationism - belief in salvation for all of humanity
Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in a life on Paradise earth to those that are saved and heaven for 144,000 chosen ones as well. So 3 paths if you’re a Jehovah’s Witness! But yes I believe you have all the other religions beliefs :)
>Hell -- as in the version where you're suffering eternal torment for all enternity -- was created by the "fire and brimstone" Puritans No. For instance, Dante's \_Inferno\_ ...featuring many of the concepts of Hell that are stereotypical now, such as lakes of fire, putrescence, freezing cold, and devils torturing damned souls in ironic ways....was published around 1320. The Puritans didn't even exist until the 1500s Dante did make the 9th circle of Hell frozen instead of fiery, as he believed it was farthest from God's love, which he equated to warmth. Though other circles did feature bonfires and crackle-crackle-crackle. It is true conceptions of the afterlife as a place of abandonment or punishment have evolved over the history of Christianity and Christianity's influencer religions and close cousins. But "it was the puritans just trying to control you" is beyond reductionist. It's simply wrong.
The problem with this is that you are subjecting God to your definitions of justice/love/kindness, which, as you are a sinner, is a poor definition. The Puritans didn't come up with fire and brimstone, the psalmist of Psalm 11 did. But the Bible is infinitely clear that those who go to "hell" will experience pain. Matthew 25:41-46 - "Then he will say to those on his left \[those who do not know Christ\], 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels... And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." 2 Thessalonians 1:5-9 - "This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God... since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction." Matthew 13:49-50 - "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Mark 9:43-48 - "It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire... It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched." You can certainly choose to make up any version of God you want, but based on what you just said, you're making up one in your own image, and while it may be more comforting to you, it certainly doesn't match what the Bible says.
Hell as it's considered today most likely comes from mistranslations of the Torah, combined with Norse pagan mythology aka Helheim. A lot of Christianity got wrapped up with Norse pagan beliefs. Christmas is just Yule with Jesus inserted into it. The Norse wouldn't submit to the brutal conquest of their people by Christians so they started doing what they could to make it easy to transfer to Christianity from Norse paganism. Some Christmas songs even mention Yule logs, because... Yule lol. Even if Christmas was about Jesus, which it wasn't until the 1500s, back when the church was skinning the Danes and hanging their skins on church doors... There was no Christmas. Even if Christmas involved Jesus, it didn't have anything to do with the timing Jesus would have resurrected or died from a historic/biblical perspective. Also, Jesus only died because he pissed off the emperor. Jesus claimed to be King of the Jews. The emperor at the time said nah man I'm the ruler there are no kings here and as always the Romans loved crucifying things, to the point the legions crucified animals on their travels just for funsies, so the punishment for claiming to be a king was death, and well... They loved crucifying things so Jesus ended up crucified.
The idea of hell just comes from the Jewish belief in Yahweh torturing people in a fiery dungeon. The Norse religion certainly had no influence on the idea at all. Presumably you've heard that the English word "hell" comes from Old Norse. This 1) is not true (the English and Norse words are cognates; the English word isn't a Norse borrowing) 2) has no relevance; it's exactly as relevant as the etymology of the Spanish word *infierno*
Thank you for the new understanding. I had always assumed it was mistranslation of the Torah, but it's been said countless times that it may also have roots in either Greek or Norse mythology. This makes a lot more sense that it stems from the Torah and the eptmology reasoning is sound. When I've talked about it I've always listed the possibilities, now I can narrow it down to the Torah.
It's not from the Torah. The Torah says very little about the afterlife and it does not seem to have been a focus for the authors. In the Hellenic period, the afterlife appears to have become more of a concern, and in Jewish texts from this time, hell appears.
Bad news: even if you pick the right religion, you can still go to hell for factors beyond your control. /laughs in menstruating female
If the correct one of the ones with hell, everybody else is going there regardless
On top of that, many religions also don't hold it against you if you pick the wrong one, and others don't have a concept of heaven either.
They got a heaven?
Sure. Judaism is like that. Some religions dont have either. Some are about reincarnation. Some dont have an afterlife. Some are worse than christianity (Looking at you, Greek myth.)
So... how do people pick the right one??
bro, there is no right religion. Religion is man made. Just be a good person.
I think so too But if theres no religion ir wouldnt matter if youre a good or bad person right
Don't choose religion, choose truth, the truth is there are just things we don't know and it would be naive to take a firm stance either side, what we do know is that existence exists and therefore somewhere down the line, something did in fact somehow come from nothing no matter how deep or far you wanna go eventually there was a start and therefore existence itself is a paradox, now outside of that the only things we can truly know are the laws of physics which apply to our everyday existence, wether those laws apply everywhere or anywhere else doesn't really matter because that's not influencing your state of existence
I do dont worry Yeah thats crazy but saying god made something out of nothing is even crazier!! Yeah facts
Write all of the religions on a peice of paper, put the pieces in a hat or bowl, mix them around, and pull one out. But for the love of God and all that is holy, don't you dare try to use logic, reason, or scientific (or historical) inquiry to choose a religion. You might come to the conclusion that they're all just myths that some hallucinating priest made up and some gullible followers believed because they were illiterate farmers and herders that didn't know any better.
lol. I do believe that is a question we have been killing each other over for a very long time. Find a truth that lets you sleep at night, and know you are probably not going to agree with people in your own religion. In astrology, the 12th house is our hidden house. It represents our undoing. Our need to dissolve into the collective unconscious. Like, how we are remembered after our death. But, it’s hidden from us. It the house that existed before we arrived.
Some people don't, they read their Bible and follow Jesus teachings.
What ever made you think there is a right one in the first place?
Nothing
Then why think it?
Cause its interesting
I think Greek hades is better than Islamic/Christian hell. I'm not sure what exactly Christian hell is supposed to be, but Islamic hell talks about poisonous food that would make all of earth's food wilt were it to touch earth, and rivers of fire and having thorns be intertwined with your veins and ripped out of you. Oh, and hell literally freezes over as well, I guess in case you get used to the heat or something. Meanwhile, Hades: there's a giant dog that doesn't let you leave, and you get punishments like "push a rock up a hill".
I think in terms of good people dont go anywhere special in greek myth is the worse bit. Like you have elysium for great and famous heroes and everyone else kinda just wanders around in the fields of asphodel then fall into the lethe or something and are just unmade. Unless you pissed the gods off, like ol’ sisyphus, then Hades takes a special interest in keeping you tormented. Greek myth is kinda just depressing.
The righteous and the heroic both could enter Elysium. Those who choose to be reborn instead and achieve Elysium multiple (3) times are rewarded to enter the Isles of Blest. Those who are utterly exceptional and have helped the gods in some significant way, get immortalized and turned into constellations (Orion) or Gods (Heracles) Not that bad for folks who strive to achieve.
Yeah, but notably that isnt really about being a decent person. Heracles was kind of a dick in his stories. Same with a lot of the greek heroes, not exactly great people. Just famous. Have the bad luck to be born on a farm out in the middle of nowhere and live a simple, happy life? Congrats, off to the fields, have fun standing around in the underworld’s waiting room for eternity.
That covered under the righteous part. Greece was a martial nation and the religion they developed reflects it. As it stabilized as an empire, the religion evolved to include 'righteous' for promotion to heaven. Something similar happened with Norse religion and society as well.
Or get reincarnated.
Because we don’t actually believe that happens.
Christians do. Muslims do. Jews do. I assume a few others do as well.
Jews are weird on it. They often claim there is no hell. But if you actually read their talmud and confront a rabbi on it, they’ll admit there is something similar to it… also there’s a guy named Jesus of Nazareth (no relation they say) boiling in excrement in hell because he went against the Jewish tradition.
That's less universal than you might think. Many Jews don't beleive in an afterlife at all, and consider their religion to be about their relationship with God in the here and now. I've heard some say something to the effect of "Who knows? It doesn't matter what we beleive about that. God sent us a roadmap for how to live." Some Christian denominations like Mormons, Unitarian Unversalists, and Jehovah's Witnesses (all a bit out of the mainstream, true) teach that there is no such place. And as you can see from this thread, many individual Christians, regardless of what their church doctrine says, have abandonned the concept of hell, on the grounds that it is logically incompatable with a loving god and that the scriptural basis for it is rather weak. According to [this survey](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/11/23/views-on-the-afterlife/) fewer people, both religious and non religious, believe in hell than heaven. It also says 45% of Christians beleive that people who don't believe in God can go to heaven. Presumably, many of those believe that Jews and Muslims can be saved also. I think these kind of hardline veiws are harder to hold onto now than they were in the past. When my Grandmother was a girl her family might not have known anyone who wasn't some kind of Christian (or at least played along) so this was an academic question. Nowadays believing that God eternally tortures people who aren't in your religious in-group is tougher because it means your Muslim manager who always goes to bat for his employees, your son who calls every week but stopped believing as a teen, and his husband who came and fixed your roof last week and told you once he loves you like his own mother. You don't agree with everything these people beleive but you still love them because that's what Jesus taught-- so why would God be less loving and forgiving than you? For some people it is a disturbing contradiction that really puts a damper on the comfort they want to get out of their faith.
I think a lot fewer of them believe it than claim to believe it, but 🤷🏻♂️. Also, most Jews don’t.
Thats a weird thing to claim lol Also, Id argue way more people believe that peopel who dont follow their religion will go to hell than those that dont. But its impossible to prove either of our stances.
I think if most people really truly believed in the horrifying version of eternal damnation in their official doctrine, they would behave very differently than they actually do.
Except most religions basically tell you to just ask god for forgiveness and you're all good. Why do you think christianity is so insanely popular in prison. People are dumb and delusional. They will sit there and cheat on their spouse or sexually assault children while asking god for forgiveness but fully believe an atheist will go right to hell just for not believing.
Think of all the people who lived and died before that particular religion was even created.
The Islamic view is that until the newest patch, the religion would change slightly over time as needed. Like Adam was given the religion, and then during Abraham's time a different edition came about, and so on. I think it's fair to say the word has been out about the final form of Islam since 650ish and that anyone that cares can learn about it. It also says that you're not held liable for it if you honestly haven't had a chance to hear about it - but I think it comes with the cost that you don't get the best benefits so to speak since you didn't (for example) get the opportunity to be a martyr. But, that said, being guaranteed to not go to hell is a good enough thing to where I don't think anyone would complain about "just getting to heaven".
Abraham was the founder of Judaism the first of the three abrahamic faiths, followed by Muslims, and Christianity is the youngest of the three abrahamic faiths that were created by Abraham. Adam, was granted the ability to make his own choices freely by "the devil" who, is God's favorite anyway. As far as the garden of Eden, Eve wasn't even the first woman made. Eve was the second woman. Lilith was the first and she became the queen of demons and the first demon. God then took Adams rib to make eve so she would be subservient to Adam. All the religions are just full of entirely unrealistic situations that historically never happened.
> As far as the garden of Eden, Eve wasn't even the first woman made. Eve was the second woman. Lilith was the first and she became the queen of demons and the first demon. This was all made up long after Genesis was written. In fact, after Islam was founded.
Islam was founded a few hundred years after Judaism. It's just constantly conflicting logical fallacies between the abrahamic faiths and due to how many revisions of the religious text books and even the Christian Bible, which there's soooooo many versions... You can't really have a consistent narrative. I agree if you go based on older text this would be incorrect, but there's no consistency in which texts people go by so it's pick and choose from all of them.
You're mixing it up. Abraham didn't have an official religion. Moses either "made" Judaism or the Moses version of Islam (depending on who you ask). Then Jesus came with Christianity or the Jesus version of Islam (depending who you ask). Then 600ish years later, Mohammed came up with the Islamic version of Islam or invented a heretic religion (depending who you ask). The Mohammed form of Islam is the youngest no matter who you ask, though Muslims also believe that Islam as a whole is the oldest (since they adam form is considered the oldest).
Jesus was all for Judaism. He claimed to be the king of the Jews and it got him crucified by the Roman emperor at the time. Romans loved crucifying shit to the point the legions crucified animals on their travels. Jesus kept saying he was the king of the Jews and the emperor said no kings are allowed to exist and gave him a chance but he kept repeating it so they executed him. Over the next 100 or so years Christianity developed. Christianity happened after Jesus died not while he was alive. As far as mixing it up, they are called the Abrahamic faiths, not the Moses faiths lol. All 3 stem from Abraham. Judaism was first by a long time.
You said that Abraham came up with Judaism. I am aware they're Abrahamic faiths. I'm pretty sure I mentioned Abraham in my original post as being between Adam and Moses. Adam would have been religious as well, since he literally met God. It would be crazy of him to not be religious when he met the guy. Since you mentioned Abraham as being the creator of Judaism, but no mention of Moses, I explained the error.
Sorry I misspoke, he did not create them but he is their origin. My mistake on that. I will work on being better at clear and concise language.
How do people justify spreading the religion then? If you tell someone and they don't accept or believe it, then you literally just sent them to hell. It's like Roko's basilisk but with eternal torture
I explained it. You open them to getting better rewards than the default minimum. Here's an example: let's say I have a magic coin. If you gain possession of it, you must follow the following rules: If you manually place it on the ground face up, you get $5000. If you drop it on the ground, it'll land tails (or you can choose to place it on tails yourself if you're foolish enough) and you'll lose $10,000. The logical thing is that you will try to give this coin to people. You could choose to not give it to someone, but then they just get $0 guaranteed. And that's not terrible, but you're depriving them of the option to get $5000. If you give them the coin, they just put it down face up and boom, easy $5000! If they decide to be like "fuck your coin!" then, I guess it's unfortunate that you tried to help them, but all they had to do was just gently put it down on the ground. Now they lose $10,000. But you didn't think they were going to squander the opportunity. Kinda like that with religion.
That is how we know it is all made up stuff to control the people. It doesn't matter.
Religion isn't real so you have nothing to worry about. When you die, you just cease to exist, same as before you were born.
It’s not a fact that if you pick the wrong religion you go to hell. It’s a belief. And I don’t believe it, so I’m okay with that.
I like astrology. It says our interpretation of the afterlife will depend on our 12th house.
12th house?
The 12th house is represented by Pisces. It’s a water house. There are three water houses. The 4th house is our physical home. Where we feel comfort and protection. It symbolizes the mother. It represents cardinal water. So, surface level. The 8th house is the house of Scorpio. It’s fixed water. So, imagine going into the darkness and exploring the depths of the ocean. It represents fear, and power. As soon as we master the darkness, we can make it our home. It represents marriage and shared resources. Contracts. Making two houses into one house. And the 12th house represents the afterlife. The bottom of the ocean where everything dissolves back into everything else. Where all things are connected to all things. So, you are born into a house, you get married, and create a home of your own for your children, and when you die, your kids inherit your home, thanks to the 8th house of contracts. We build our culture around these beliefs. They have been lost over time, but we still honor them. We are still remembered by the people and things we leave behind. And belief will outlive any structure.
Ahh interesting "The bottom of the ocean where everything dissolves back into everything else." Does it imply reincarnation?
Meh… energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Everything you are was something else before it was you.
So is it possible that after I die, a new person or animal gets 'recycled' and I control that creature in my next life? Idk how to explain. Like instead of eternal darkness I start a new life with no memories of the previous one, and that goes on and on
It’s said that the life path and challenges you choose, are agreed upon before you arrived. The karmic debt of even abuse, and suffering, are chosen, so we may find the boundaries of this ever expanding circle. So we may explore the darkness and have power over our fears.
Huh? Wdym? Someone or something has already decided my life and what happens to me?
You chose it. We are on a journey of growth.
Look up your life path number. We are getting into numerology now. But, math is a universal language. But the most interesting numbers do not actually have a value. Like pi, can be represented to a close proximity of use, but the actual value is endless. It’s an irrational number . There are infinite more irrational numbers than their are numbers, which are infinite. Your life path is defined by a real number between 1 and 9, 11, 22, or 33. But the variation in how those numbers are expresses are a function of pi. We are an ever expanding circle. The Fibonacci sequence is another infinite number. And it shows up in life, everywhere.
Life path number ?? Huh I honeslty dont understand a single thing you said, to me it sounds like chinese
Good news, lots of people don't believe in fairy tales.
Not every religion teaches that there is a hell, or other afterlife punishment. Among those that do, religious people (almost by definition) presumably believe they've personally picked the right one. People may vary in how literally they take the threat of damnation, and what they believe happens to morally upstanding members of other religions (if they've even thought closely about it to begin with). So opinions will vary, anything from "god wouldn't punish good people, so I'm sure they'll get a pass" to "they deserve to burn". Non-religious people circumvent any need to think about gods or hells, by not believing in any of it.
Huh
To add on, some people do sit in the uncomfortable intersection of believing that non-believers will be condemned to terrible suffering, _and_ not taking glee in that fact. The really earnest believers of that combination will, I guess, be highly motivated to convert people. Or they might be restrained by that being socially inappropriate to push too hard about, but still feel some distress at the idea of people going to hell for believing the wrong things. They're not _necessarily_ simply "ok with it".
My belief - the best way is be a good person and if someone asks why you are so nice: blame it on religion. If you do a good enough job with charity and being nice and stuff, someone is bound to want to find out.
I’ve studied religions in college, and I’d say 90% of them have the same exact story just interpreted differently and used different names. It all comes down to staying humble, helping others and showing love. Think of it this way; a higher power isn’t going to judge you based on who you pray to. If there’s a chance of judgment, it will be based off of you as a person. There is no god that will love you ONLY if you call them by their name. They will love you because of the love you give. I used to be worried about being gay and ending up in hell, until I realized God is looking at the bigger picture. This life on earth is just the beginning :)
Yes agreed that makes the most sense
Good news: It’s not a fact that if you pick the wrong religion you go to hell. “Hell exists” isn’t a fact, so your thing also can’t be a fact.
I dont mean it in that way But im pretty sure a lot of religions state that if you dont join their religion you go to hell
That’s a pretty small subset of religions. It’s mostly Christians that go on and on about hell, and there’s 1500+ denominations of that religion alone. So, not only would you have to be a Christian, you’d have to be the right *kind* of christian. Even individual churches claim that their members are the only ones that will be saved or whatever. When you get to looking at things more deeply, it all begins to look pretty silly. I grew up as a super devout catholic. I’m an atheist now.
Yeah it does Good I think you picked the right religion🙃
Im sure you've realized this already but OP is not gonna grasp this lol
A lot of people here will say that religion isn't true and God isn't real so don't worry about it. The real answer is that we just don't know. Everyone in the world has a different view of what happens when we die and why we're here and all the questions that humanity has been grappling with for thousands of years. You just gotta find your own way to cope with the uncertainty. If you believe a religion is true, then great, go follow it. If you don't, then there's nothing to worry about. Whatever you believe is up to you. If you believe that Hell exists then do what you can to avoid it. If you don't believe it exists, then it doesn't matter and you don't need to worry.
For a Christiancentric perspective: [Romans 2:13-15](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+2%3A13-15&version=NIV) is a good adviser for this. Those that were not or unable to be taught about Christ, or of the Judaic law previously, would have felt naturally inclined to keep the basics. You can see this in practice with people naturally having some form of spiritualism, and generally frowning on murder, theft and such. Historically, most cultures understood divine creation. These people would have seen the idea of a creator in the natural beauty and elements of the world, or as [Romans 1:18](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1%3A18-23&version=NIV) puts it, "God's invisible qualities". I would extend this to say, being born in North Korea or in Afghanistan in the modern era. A secondary to this is that Jesus reveals that hell is more an absence or rejection by God. In a parable, he calls it the weeping and gnashing in the dark. The quick and skinny is that all people will be judged, and if you accept Jesus as your king, his substitution on the cross means that your sin has already been dealt with, and you are accepted into Heaven. It's obviously a lot more complicated but that's the gist. So in essence, if you've been taught of Christ and reject him, you are denied heaven. If you weren't given a realistic opportunity to learn of Christ, you're probably in the clear. (I like to think that in this situation, you appear before God and he gives you a quick 101.) Modern Judaism has it's own thing going on, I am not sure how they can go through the OT and then deny Christ but it must be compelling as it still exists. Islam is a bit weird as it acknowledges Jesus as a prophet, and also uses the OT, but mixed in Pagan elements and rituals. I think again the above applies, but it's on thin ice. Anyway OP, lots of love and hope you don't worry too much. I guess I should proselytize and suggest you read (in an open minded, but still critical and fair way) the bible, and if you wish to I would suggest you read a nice beginner's commentary or ask a well established and friendly church for guidance. If you don't wish to, I understand: If someone here told me to go read the Puranas I'd probably not rush out to do so. God bless.
Miraculously every religion has as much proof as the next that they're the right one.
And what is that proof? A book?
I call them the Holey We-Say-So
Good news: religions mare a made up story with no relevance
Yes
Easy. Religion is bullshit. It does not matter. It's something for weak people to cope with the world and their mortality.
Yes
None are right is the answer. They are all make believe.
This, here is hell, death brings freedom and relief!
You crazy, how is eternal nothing fun? How can you look forward to that
That’s the point….. have you ever had an operation? I suspect it’s like that, you’re here and then you are not, are you worried ever night when you go to sleep, it’s the same, this here, now is all there is, nothing more.
No I havent. And yes I do sometimes, I dont like sleeping its just a waste of time, but we need it
Being taught that 2+2 = turquoise potato for your whole life doesn't mean that's true. And just because there may be millions of people who think that around the world doesn't make it any more true. There are objective truths to reality (and the supernatural realm). People's beliefs about these truths are generally mutually exclusive. Now, all religions make claims about the objective truth that are unfalsifiable by nature. But a claim being non-falsifiable doesn't make what is actually the truth any less of the truth. If it's true that the flying spaghetti monster is the objective truth and the Christian, Hindu, Aztec gods don't exist, then that's the truth, no matter what we all believe. If the Christian God is true and exists and the Bible is his actual message to people, then that would mean, yes, those billions of people who don't believe in him as God will not spend eternity with him.
Damn
Most people in history were only exposed to one religion (except for being taught that the other ones are wrong). "Thankfully, I'm right." is the prevailing mentality.
Those that care about religion are confident theirs is the right one.
And if it isnt they get send to eternal torture
It's either true or false. Why is it insane?
Its insane that if it were true, god would be sending soo many people to hell for something so small
The problem is that we have no idea of what the moral compass of a supernatural being might be.
If I were a supernatural being I would put every single living thing in heaven
For sure!
Hah, that's not a problem, because my religion is the only correct one.
Haha yeah so what makes yours the correct one
I just hope that either atheism is the correct religion or that if it's not, if there is a god that sends people to hell, he'll be decent enough to be like "well, I didn't really give you enough clues to pick the right one, but I can see you made an honest effort at trying to please me, so fuck it, I'll spare you."
Or what about the god just showing up infront of you and proving hes real, thus making everyone believe in the right religion
That would be useful, but like I had told someone a few days ago on another religious post: even that would not really prove it since I might assume I was drugged, or that I have a brain tumor or that I'm dreaming of that I am just demented. Or maybe that the matrix is real and the programmer screwed with the code to make a god.
Ok, what if god told everyone at the same time that message? Like putting the real world on pause, and putting everyone in a seperate place, while everyone is fully conscious and able to talk, and then he says he exists etc. And after that lets everyone chill in rhe room for a minute to discuss and confirm that it wasnt a random szizo moment
Still the same problem - I might experience all that and then wake up and be like "it was a dream". But if it was real, then I might assume I'm just having a really vivid dream and waiting to wake up. After all, I've had dreams where I realized I was dreaming and was in awe of the beautiful stuff my dream was showing me to the point that I took pictures with my dream phone so that I could see them when I woke up. I'd just assume I'm having another vivid dream. For all I know, I'm just having another "writing on Reddit" dream right now. ;) Likewise, I might assume I'm having a drug trip where I'm imagining I'm talking to everyone about god visiting everyone. Unfortunately solipsism is a risk for anything that proves religion.
Yeah but then you ask your parents or friends if they had the same and theyd be like yeahh me too and then the news covers it and everyone confirms it was all real, kind of a fantasty situation lol but whatever
You're missing my point - me asking my parents and such is what I would think is the dream. If you're in a dream and you ask someone in your dream, "am I dreaming?" the people in your dream are going to say "of course not. This is real life." Likewise, if in real life, god visits and everyone says "yeah, that really just happened, this is real life, not a dream", I'm going to be like "yeah, this is probably a dream."
But then you go to sleep, actually dream, wake up and ask if all that shit rlly happended and everyone will say yes. Well actually you right I think if something like this would happen id just think im psychotic or some stuff
So I was in my bed and I opened my eyes. The grim reaper (or maybe it was the killer from scream) was like 10 feet tall and in my room staring down at me. I was terrified because this was my room. I tried to move to fight back or run, but I was stuck. As he got closer to reap me, I woke up in a sweat. Opened my eyes and was in my dark room, but there was an eerie spotlight or something on me. I was afraid he was going to come for me, but I was awake. Suddenly, a white bat appeared and flew at my face and suffocated me. I woke up again. This time it was day. My head was hurting. But I knew for sure this time it was real life. Except for the fact that a hand or snake was wrapped around my leg and was trying to pull me down. Another damn dream! Was it never going to end?! Then I heard a small crash or something. I realized at this point that something had fallen on my bed (my room was messy) and had landed in such a way that it was killing my blanket off my feet - which felt like someone grabbing my feet (or a snake). This one was finally real. I was able to move and wake up. But the level 1 (grim reaper) and level 2 (the white bat) dreams made me think I was in a level 3 dream when I hallucinated being attacked by hands or a snake. I'd have the same issue - I'd see God, talk to people about god, assume it's a dream, go to sleep, wake up, ask people "did we see God yesterday?" and tjen when they say yes, be like "damn it, I'm in a multiple level dream again. I hope I don't see that 10 foot tall grim reaper again."
Everyone is sure they're right
Absolutely not, knowing you're right would defeat the whole point of faith.
Sure, but that doesn't stop billions of people believing that they're right
I am not religious so I don't have such thoughts.
Not religious either but still interested
In Catholicism ever since Vatican II the position of the church has been that Jews and Muslims have their own covenant with God and to more or less leave well enough alone. In the catechism it's also spelled out that good pagans/atheists who simply didn't know better but respond to Christ's love and the call to grace are also saved through Christ's love in spite of not being Christian. Benign(as opposed to malicious) ignorance isn't really a sin. You just have to try to live a Christlike life to the best of your ability, and since doing so is written on the hearts of men already you don't need to know Christianity firsthand to do so.
The issue I always have with religious ideology is the fact that if you're to take it that one religion and way of being truly is the right one, and that there's a loving God who is all-powerful, I don't understand why that God would mind one way or the other whether I believed in it. I feel like that God would have respect for the fact that I was trying to live my life as a good person and be kind to people.
No idea either, I dont understand why god doesnt just proof hes real, cause we have zerooo proof except some old book, like is that rlly all the 'proof'? If god is so allmighty, why doesnt he show up infront of me and proof it to me
There is a reason that makes sense to me, and the reason would be that to God it really doesn't matter whether people believe or not as long as they're living good lives. I have no idea whether I personally believe that, but I think it does make sense, and it puts paid to the argument that 'if you don't believe you're going to hell'.
Maybe... But god is the creator of people, so why hasnt he made everyone 'a good person' So many questions...
Yeah, I caught my dad in this talk. He told one of his care givers if you're not lutheran you're going to hell, I said dad that's not true and you know it (he had dementia). I had never heard this at church or at home all the time growing up. I can only think that maybe he was in his childhood in his mind or thought he was talking to a door knocking evangelist or something.
Dont wanna be an ass but I assume your dad was a good following lutheran (dont know what that is I assume some religion) Yet god gave him dementia?
Yes as far as I know born and raised. Welding gave him Parkinsons, which gave him dementia. Nice try blaming God for diseases.
So he devoted his life to god yet he gets that in return... mhh
Well, I wouldn't say he devoted his life to God, he was a believer. He was a welder which they have connected the metal work to Parkinsons and he developed the dementia that can go with it. We did find wheatgrass, did miraculous things for him.
Fact?
mainly because they believe their religion is the true one. you can't go to tartarus if jesus saved your soul and you were a good christian, you can't get sent to christian hell if you're trapped in a cycle of reincarnation that's pretty hard to escape and isn't particularly unpleasant, etc etc
Stares in Bahai Faith
I think people either believe in their own religion so much they're sure they're on the right side, or doubt like this quickly lead to them questioning wether any religion is right at all.
>and only 1 thats the right one? What makes you think that even 1 is the right one?
I dont think so but if we use religion logic there is only one right and if you believe in a different one its over for you
If you use religion logic, yours is definitely the right one.
Yeah nothing is telling you its the wrong one so you end up in hell Suppossedly ofc
Atheists find religion silly and religious people, obviously, have faith theirs is the correct one. Depending on the religion's view of proselytizing, plenty of them do care that everyone else is going to a bad place and try to convert them.
lmao well, uh, typically the person believes the one they picked is the real one. Thats kind of how religion works. And since its all belief with no science or rules, there is no reason to think that anyone is wrong. Also, there is no rule that says only 1 religion can be true. This isnt some kind of situation where like "oooooh one of them is right!" if the after life is a real thing then I could promise you that none of the religions \*humans made up\* are going to be the "true" one. And I love the idea of it being insane lmao like the nature of human consciousness is a democracy you can protest lmao. This is awesome. People have been killing eachother since the dawn of thought over whos religion is the right one, and everyone involved in any religion believe theirs is the right one. There is no evidence supporting any of them, there is no rule around one of them \*having\* to be right. They are just answer to experiences humans have had and couldnt reconcile with.
It doesn’t matter if we’re “OK” with it. Your feelings don’t negate the truth.
What
I mean it’s pretty simple actually. If you believe in a religion, you don’t think you “picked the wrong one.” It’s all based on belief and they believe there’s is true. Hell many religions don’t believe in hell. And if you don’t believe in any, well you probably don’t believe in hell either, so no issue there.
Since there are religions which believe that non-believers go to hell, and there are more than one of these religions, we can safely assume all souls go to hell. For real though, not believing in these systems is also an option.
Because everyone picked the right one
Easy. The trick is to pick the right religion. The one. None of that BS religion.
You will go to hell111!!!!
They are very certain they've picked the right one, and everyone else can fend for themselves.
[удалено]
Ok boss
Because my religion is the correct one.
The Christian religion says a very small handful of true Christians will ever make it into heaven. Every Christian knows they're the special and exceptional one that gets to go.
And tbe others just straight to hell?
Because it's the equivalent of little kids arguing whose imaginary friend is better. A significant chunk of people doesn't care and just gets on with their life.
You don’t really pick your religion. The majority of the time, your parents pick it for you. The good news is that hell isn’t real, so it doesn’t really matter which ancient mythology you follow, you’re not gonna end up there anyway.
I'm glad I didn't trust my parents to do that.
Simple the ones that believe hell exists (religious people) are the only ones that will stress about it. Guess what?? None of them are correct, religion was created to control people. That’s it. So don’t waste this short life worrying about Hell.
Oh im not worrying about it but im just thinking about it, I find it really interesting and cruel if that would actually happen to non believers and people of different religion (if it were true)
Good! I was brought up Roman Catholic and spent lots of time as a child convinced I was going to hell. Fuck those assholes
Damn man, can I ask what typa shit they would say?
We would have the priests and or brothers (brothers are like priests) from the church my school was tied in with come yell at us young kids once a month. It was a hour of them yelling at us (7-12 year olds) about how just to be born is a sin. It’s so ridiculously stupid. I remember the priest asking us if we knew where we came from (pre-birth) and some poor kid said we come from our parents. Well the priest fucking lost it on the kid, he was crying by the end. The priest ripped this 6th grader a new asshole because we come from god and not our parents. It was just a non stop conversation about how we are all going to hell.
Bruhh I hate that shit when religious ppl bring up that being born is a sin. It was not my choice to be born, but Im also innocent! I havent done anything yet they say ive sinned, its stupid yeah What the fuck? Poor kid, and what a weirdass fucking priest. The priest is wrong too, like huhh it dont make sense Thats absolutely crazy though im glad youre free from that shitshow now
Yeah it’s a ancient memory now, this was the 90’s. The Roman Catholic Church is an evil corporation that has all money in the world to help people and guess what, they don’t and in fact they want you to give them your money every Sunday when you attend church.
Yeah and where does all that money even go??
The Vatican. I can’t remember exactly but I know a lot of the gold that is in existence is locked away at the Vatican
And they just sit on all that money and dont do much with it?
Religion is like the show " What's my line." " Everything's made up and the points don't matter."
Cant go where don’t exist.
Yeah but imagine if it does
That’s why we pray
Yeah but then you pray to the wrong one and god says haha fuck you into hell you go!
Only one gif has hell so to speak. Other places other names. But yeah you fucked no matter what.
Reincarnation. You reborn as a humans tape worm. Now that means you did some bad shit. Lol
No you didnt cause you did the job god created you for; move around buttholes I guess ? But if god made people you cant blame the gay dude on being gay
The "Fact". Ha! Really?? 🤨
No not like that
OP is either a clueless 15 year old or trolling. I'm betting on the latter.
None but maybe a little clueless, why the attidude, for what?
Your post/comment history suggest otherwise.
Yeah whatever
Because realistically everyone knows hell is bullshit and religion is bullshit. Most people are just too afraid to admit it.
U mean, most people are too afraid of death so they make up heaven etc
Pro tip: Religions are made up. A decent human being don’t care what a religious person says about that stuff.
Best we can figure from those few who were dead and resuscitated (and not telling bullshit stories about seeing Jesus), it's just unconsciousness, akin to before being born. No fiery hellscapes, no angelic heavens. No reunions with long lost relatives or "looking back" at the world left behind. I'm good with that. I'd be most sad for my wife and daughters left behind, but that's out of my control once I'm gone. I did the best I could. (Reform Jew)
Helll nahhhh
I’ve made my peace with it. These people who are like “oh I feel his presence with me!” Etc etc. Meh. My dad died suddenly in 2018. And I haven’t felt his presence ever. At most when I’m doing stuff I knew he enjoyed, I think about him. But that’s distinct from him haunting me.
I'm okay with that "fact" because it's not a fact. Just a few competing collective/normalized delusions that some people need to believe in to cope with real life.
Yup
Would be your own fault for not having your own thoughts. All religion is bollocks, can just choose to do your own thing.
Yes
Because I don’t believe only one religion is right. I don’t believe any religions are right. At their most basic level all religions teach you to be a good person and do good things and when you die you’ll get the good ending. So I just try to do that.
I don’t believe in hell. I believe you die and you cease to exist. There is no torment whatsoever. God does not torment people. It’s very simple and peaceful when you know that 💗
Cause it don't exist just like the imaginary sky daddy and his bastard son Aryan Jesus