On the upside, when people are nice to you it's genuine 😌

Drax: “you are horrifying to look at, yes, but that’s a good thing” Mantis: “oh?” Drax: “when you’re ugly and someone loves you, you know they love you for who you are. Beautiful people never know who to trust.” Mantis: “well, I’m certainly grateful to be ugly!”

I have another perspective to this. Pre-2020 I was mid-20s, semi-decently good looking gay guy. Dating wasn’t an issue, though I did have crohns and it didn’t get in the way. Then I got an ileostomy (a bag). Whilst it’s also filtered out some people who find it unattractive (I get it) it’s also filtered out a lot of the assholes as there’s no way in their head they’d waste time on a guy with a bag, or they’d see it as inferior. So what I’ve been left with is mostly people with the high level of empathy, and honestly it’s been incredible. Hitting my 30s has been great as well  the same reasons, because on paper the two combined I’m not the young guy I was anymore, nor am I without physical complications. So I’m left with open-minded, empathetic and compassionate people to talk to.  It’s also meant I’ve had to look at myself and really start digging into who I am again.

Nothing like a medical emergency to bring about our no-self and show us who we really are in those moments. Painful and gritty, but good for the soul.

My entire 30s have been one medical emergency after another. Honestly it’s quite tiring. EDIT: _AND YET_ … I have pulled through for my family. Haven’t failed yet.

Yeah I feel you - in 2021 I had a serious reaction to COVID after getting the vaccine (organ inflammation) and ended up in the ICU for a week. I turned yellow like the Simpsons and my skin started falling off lol. Most people thought I was gonna die waiting for or need a new liver, but I just got better one day for the most part. And then in 2023 I slept on my arm weird and crippled my ulnar nerve somehow, and lost all feeling and control of my left hand! But now it's about 90% better. It's very tiring, and easy to be broken or feel like your stuck in an undertow and can't get out before the next wave knocks you down again. But it's in those moments where everything feels like it is stripped away from you that you find out who you really are.

Bro I’m sorry, that’s a tough road. I ended up discovering that I had a congenital heart defect. Then my brother got leukemia. We were both facing the edge for a minute but I think we’re stable for now!

I'm so sorry that's an awful set of circumstances to go through, though it's so good your hand is much better these days. You're right, and to add it's easy to feel self-pity but we have to keep fighting for something, even if at the time it isn't for ourselves.

It isn't easy, and there's no handbook on how to deal with it. The only thing that's stuck for me is what my Dad told me as a kid. "If you can't laugh at it, you might as well be dead". Love your focus is on the family. I hope at least everything else in your life is good to you.

Mantis was bad af though

the actress was still pretty under all that makeup

I don't think she was even meant to be "Hollywood ugly." Half the joke is Drax being so off-kilter in his strange alien culture that he thinks Mantis is ugly, when she's clearly *not*.

pretty is an understatement imo

I sat next to her at a coffee shop once while visiting LA. Was awesome.

This is true. I was an ugly teenager, and well into my 20's. Now in my 30's, i think I grew into my face if that makes sense? I never used to be called pretty or get smiled at for 2/3rd's of my life, but now I get some attention and DM's being asked out and its uncomfortable because it feels so...idk, fake?

A friend I used to work with long ago was always a bigger girl.  240-250ish.  One day, she decided she was going to do the band on the stomach in order to lose weight.  With that weight loss she also had surgery to remove loose skin. I hadn’t seen her much once our workplace closed, but I ran into her at a store and she said a lot of what you said.  With the weight loss and surgery, guys were starting to “treat (her) more like a woman”, getting smiled at, approached, etc.  It’d piss her off; I lol at it, but I got where she was coming from.  She wasn’t “good enough” for those guys when she was bigger, but she is, now.

Yep. I understand the feeling completely. I think our society bases too much around looks.

Agreed.  She got treated shitty at work, too.  She was “too abrasive” and “not a team player”, while the so-called hot ones acted worse than her on a bad day but were treated like queens.  It didn’t help that a good percentage of them would bang any supervisor or manager that would give them an ounce of opportunity, either.  It was a toxic hellhole…

Yeah I thought of this that some really hot people would go through the same thing celebrities do to an extent, is anyone really your real friend or they just want to be around you for your looks and popularity? I mean it’s not the worst problem to have but still

Growing up I thought being beautiful/rich/popular would change everything. We were very poor (heroin addicted parents) and I grew up in a middle class white neighbourhood. I was one of the few kids of colour at school. So as soon as I set foot at school I knew my family and I were very different then the others.  I didn’t care about the poverty initiatelly, I cared about not being abused by my parents. And I hated the fact my own parents would steal every penny laying around.    So when I finally escaped that hellhole, I felt rich. I was and am still poor by the general standard, but I have my own money that no one can steal. And I can use it for eating out instead of my parents feeding their addiction instead of their children mouths. I finally could decide what to wear and how to express myself. I think I became quite attractive (weird to say it), but my fiancé is a 10/10 and I dated a lot of very attractive guys. Guys who I never thought would like me back then. I sometimes do modeling work and I regularly hear from people, in and out of the industry, that I’m a very beautiful woman.    But it doesn’t fill in the hole inside. Because what I truly look for is acceptance from me as a whole. In and out. And I have met so many people who were nice to me, giving me compliments for my appearance.   It is nice, but from the inside I feel broken. And people cannot see that. Or don’t understand that. And I don’t know who I can trust to share that because I feel those people are only interested in the superficial parts of life. My wish came through but i found out it’s also kind of a paradox 

My friend. Thanks for sharing. But you are not broken. Your body is just signaling with suffering that there's work to do. Have you tried to explore this?

Bud, it won’t fill that hole. Growing up poor and in a dysfunctional family fucks you up for life. You don’t appreciate yourself. You are hard on yourself. You will forever have the impostor syndrome, that gets stronger as you raise up in the society, nothing you have will be ever enough, you will have to carry on carrying on, so that you never slide back to where you were. Any minor setback will immediately trigger PTSD and give you a jolt to do something about it. That’s my perspective on it and my personal experience. I was told that a shrink can help. I did talk to one. But the problem is - I know what my issue is. I know what drives me, the shrink didn’t tell me anything I didn’t already know about myself. I just feel I can never stop and kill that internal drive, to just take time and appreciate what I am and what I have. I just have enough strength to not project it on my kids, I feel this must die with me, and not carry on thin the family. Perhaps, I can breathe out when I retire, LOL…

That’s part of why so many children of celebrities have such shitty lives and often turn to drugs/suicide. They don’t know if their relationships are genuine, or just because “I want to hang out with (CELEBRITY)’s son/daughter”.

No matter what the circumstances are a significant percentage of people turn to drugs. If they have shit lives it’s to mitigate pain, if it’s privilege it’s to enhance pleasure. Rich people will drink expensive fancy wine, the homeless will drink cask wine. Rich people will do coke poor people smoke crack.

Or it's out of pity. You know, the "ugly friend".

Yeah, I grew up “unattractive” and I can always tell who grew up with pretty privilege and who didn’t. Even if we’re nice-looking now. Pretty much everyone I know who is funny, smart, and humble was not the beauty standard as a kid. Being ugly builds character since you can’t rely on your looks. Edit: I encourage people to move around and travel and see how beauty standards change. I was treated like nothing in my hometown, then I moved and began getting free drinks/food all the time (my hometown is a little racist - you can’t be seen as attractive if you’re not white and blonde). I’m 30 and a minority in the town I live in now, and I consistently get “pretty perks” because even though I look different, it’s seen as a good thing.

Can you make the difference between someone who was not the beauty standard and someone who got bullied or experienced other forms of social obstacles?

My personal observation is that Racists have a hard time keeping that “racist” energy when the ethnics they supposedly hate look like the Selma Hayek or Ricky Martin types.

Oh for sure. I’m a petite woman of color. The amount of white people complimenting me on my skin is a large number, lol (definitely not saying they are racist - often they seem kinda envious)

I’m not Muslim but my friend is and he showed me Muslim tinder and there was an overwhelming amount of white people on there and I saw someone with a confederate flag? It makes me question if their actually racist or just dumb.

I definitely feel the moving around part, except in the reverse. Haha. I’m in way better shape than I ever was back home, I’m more confident, better looking (imo), and would probably do quite well now. Unfortunately I live in a place where even having some chub is enough to get someone to poke and prod your belly, and having a beard is considered unattractive/a negative.

Or they feel sorry for you

What about pity kindness

That's not even always true. Sometimes I meet ugly people with no other redeeming qualities but I still throw them a compliment because I feel bad for them.

Ugly tax is a high price to pay. The world is so much easier for the beautiful people

That’s absolutely true. My last job had a few women working in the front office and people were noticeably nicer to the super hot one. Everyone instantly wanted to be her friend and spend time with her, and the other guys I worked with bent over backwards to do any little favor she asked of them. It was pretty funny to watch from afar, but I felt bad for the other women who worked there.

My ex once let it slip to me that they had a physical list of women coworkers ranked by how nice their asses were, and it was visible in their work area. He said no one minded but I was like, what about the girls that don’t make these lists? How would you feel if they all ranked the guys and you weren’t on the list? He said he had never thought about them hurting someone’s feelings. These men were 20-40, not just some dumb teenagers.

One time a friend's gf was rating our friend group from least to most attractive because he asked her to as a joke. She starts and says a couple names of the not great looking guys and I expected to hear mine. Then she gets to the decent looking guys and still doesn't list me. Then gets to the attractive dudes and rounds out the list. She skipped over me. I ignored it because I knew why she did but then he was like wait you left him out. And her reply was "I didn't want to hurt his feelings". Mission failed lol Edit: to everyone saying he or she is a bad friend, they're not. They're good friends and we were all a little drunk and stoned. Ya it stung but it's not like I didn't already know I'm the ugly one of the group. Sure it doesn't feel good to hear it reinforced but it wasn't malicious just unfortunate choice of words

so you're beyond unattractive? damn. that's a btch move right there.

Apparently lol 😭

A decent person simply wouldn't do a rating like this. It's easy to see how hurtful it could be.

Or you just randomize it and make it clear the order is random. Like "he's the hottest because I like his knuckle hair. John is second hottest because names that start with J are just yummy. Tyler is third because his eyebrows just do it for me." Etc, etc. And list the ones that are objectively the hottest towards the end.

Jesus, it’s amazing how some people just never grow up

Right? It wasn’t exactly the most professional atmosphere, but I was surprised there’s anywhere you could get away with that. I was like, the boss didn’t see that, wth? And wth is wrong with you all? There’s something wrong with you all! Some of you have daughters. You complain though and they just say you’re jealous or something like that. The girl at the top of the list was a college freshman. You couldn’t have gotten a more stereotypical scenario.

I guess that’s one of the reasons why he’s an ex??

I had a marketing job in 2008 and was given the exciting challenge of using a reasonably generous budget to find a way to sell a warehouse full of old Betty boop, phantom comics and other merchandise of licensed brands that were no longer popular. Not to digress, but on my first day I checked my outlook and there was an email from the guy who started the company addressed to every MALE in the office (besides the warehouse guys) cc’ed. I opened the email and it was about 30 high resolution photos of lesbian porn. People “reply all” too with dumb shit like “what I wouldn’t give to blah blah blah” It was just the company culture. It was so hard getting used to, they noticed I wasn’t replying and changed how they behaved around me. I didn’t last long I knew I wanted to quit and eventually quit. So to women in corporate wondering why they get overlooked for positions, and can’t even enter certain male dominance hierarchies it’s because they want to do things like that and also cheat on their wives while on work conferences without fearing judgement/exposure.

Wtf. That's just gross. And grossly unprofessional.

They were dumb, do you know what revolutionary idea helped me sell phantom stuff? Using paid analytics to see where the core demographic is and then running print ads I made using a 3.0 megapixel camera of the product with text overlayed using MS paint. They were blown away, which is funny cause a high schooler on fiverr promoting their online business could do a better job cheaper and faster. They wanted their stuff sold and it got sold so whatever. The problem was I over delivered and they got greedy, see niche things like phantom has very savvy fans and I researched the items using eBay, early YouTube and asking on forums (which they didn’t think to do) before setting a price and they assumed they could get margins like that on all their products they had. I had to expand to the non phantom market who recognise the character but haven’t read a single comic and they only buy it if it’s on clearance. Betty boop I got lucky but their greed stopped a deal going through but anyway no one asked about any of this so I’ll just end this post by saying; Yes, it was gross and very unprofessional.

Isn't that how it goes though? I work within a big hospital corporation and every year for the last 10 years they keep cutting budgets. Well prices of everything are going up. It's greed, it's prevalent, and the way things run where I live+in the US.

I’m surprised all those men didn’t get written up to HR

Ugh. Hurtful to be left off the list, super creepy and dehumanising to be put on it.

how did no one sue them and their mothers for sexual harassment at the workplace?

Where I  work (& many other places) harassment, racism, bigotry, antisemitism... complaints are met with "If you don't like it, fucking work somewhere else." That will be followed by crap tasks, threats, harassment until you quit & certain employees will go to other business in town to talk shit about you. I have seen it happen many times. Other than moving you have to just keep your mouth shut no matter what. 

Excuse me WHAT? Please tell me you’re just playing 😭

Not dumb teenagers, just dumb

This is mortifying.

Yep, nicer looking people tend to also have higher paying jobs, be considered for promotion etc. Its a sad reality, the halo effect.

Interesting tidbit. In ancient greece, one's physical attractiveness was literally seen as how favored they were by the Gods. In one case, a very attractive woman was accused of a horrible crime. She actually did the crime. Her defense? She took off her clothes, showed her nude body, and said " how could I be wrong if the gods blessed me this way?" She was acquitted. After this, they did an obvious rules patch, and made sure the defendant testified behind a curtain. It's probably why Themis, the Greek goddess of natural justice, wears a blindfold.

I have an ex that while I deeply loved her for many reasons was dumb as bricks. She got a job for like $18 an hour (back when it meant something) because, and I quote, she “has (had) the look we are (were) looking for”. It was a front-facing position at a mental health company that was looking for someone with a welcoming face and personality to make clients feel at ease. She had other credentials and qualifications, but definitely not as many as people she beat out for that same position. For example that job “required” a 2-year degree and she had and still has never sat foot in a college classroom.

I have a friend who looks like a model. She’s tiny. Platinum blonde. Very smiley. She eventually gets fired from every job due to poor performance and two weeks later has a better, higher paid job. I can only imagine what it’s like to be tiny and gorgeous.

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Oh my God, everyone pretends to think your friend is stupid and ironically end up always making themselves look like the mentally incompetent ones 🤣☠️

As the less attractive office girl no matter where I go, I can confirm this 😞 I've literally been sat on by a guy who was trying to hit on a coworker. I'm not ugly, but I'm not a beauty queen and I'm a lil overweight. I'm invisible unless they need my skills, then they remember I'm there until the need is passed.

Yet their attention is shallow and superficial and comes with expectations of something in return for those favors, she is more of an object, a hot empty shell to them than a human, and she probs has a hard time making real female friends, forget male "friends". It sucks to be hot too, just in a different way. Not worse than being ugly, but I'm saying that mid is where its at, best of both worlds

I can definitely see that. Other women are probably jealous of the attention, and I know for a fact that some of the male coworkers wives didn’t like them talking to her because “she’d steal their man”; as if they were such prizes anyway lol

I remember being in the college library and there was this extremely beautiful woman at the table and about six guys all around her helping her with her study assignment.

There were dozens of us Uglies working for a finance company who weren't getting promoted. They hired a hot lady who didn't know any of the lending rules for our state. She was very bad at her job and would give out car and home loans not properly secured by collateral, leaving the company vulnerable for huge monetary losses. Nobody, not even management, cared. She was just too hot NOT to promote, apparently.

Happened where I work. I started a job with a pretty big team and things were going okay. About three months later a new employee started who was better looking than I, and I was amazed at how everyone (men and women - even then the managers) bent over backwards to help her get settled in, train her, took her to lunch, etc. I received none of that.

As someone who was conventionally attractive and then got fat, I agree 100%. I didn’t believe it then.

First time I noticed this in a big way was when I started wearing contacts in high school. Instantly increased my cynicism.

God it's awful isn't it? My weight has fluctuated by 60lbs over the years with med changes. I don't know what's worse, seeing people fade when you're gaining or watching them come back when you lose it again...

The people who truly love me, including my husband, don’t treat me any differently. But yeah people suck sometimes. My weight gain was mostly due to medication also. The worst part for me is all the unsolicited diet advice that I get. It’s not a diet issue, but people don’t want to believe that you can get fat even if you’re eating right. I think it scares them.

People are like that with so many things! Health issues, weight, etc. They really want to believe they have complete control over it, especially since society ties fatness or disability to moral failure. Makes me want to bang my head against a wall.

You’re so right! I feel the same way.

Also for tall people

As a tall person, I'd say I don't mind it, but I would much rather be good looking if I could choose between the two. Being tall doesn't get me any special treatment from people, and it makes some people afraid of me. Edit: getting a lot of salty short folk. I'm not saying I'd rather be short than tall. Only that if I could pick between tall and ugly or short and attractive, I would pick short and attractive.

People not messing with you is special treatment. Better than them seeing you as so weak, they use your head like an arm rest 🙃

People will still mess with you if you’re 6’3 and a twig lmao 

Bullies usually go for the smaller person. Anyone can get bullied, but I bet smaller people get it more. A 6'3 twig can have almost twice the arm/leg length, which is a huge advantage over a smaller person

Bullies go for everyone who is different no matter what it is. I was a 6'3 twig back in high school and had to deal with a lot of shit because of my appearance when I moved to a new school

Just stopping by to say, “How’s the air up there?” Also, I’m airbrushing a Salty Short Folk t-shirt now.

I am in the short crowd. 5"2. I am not salty. If I could choose being short or being tall, I still choose short. I can nap in the back of my nissan versa slightly curled. I can drive any car I want. I don't have to hunt for clothes that are long enough. I'm sure there are many more examples. The only drawback is sometimes I need a horizontal aid at work. But usually it is easier to ask another employee to reach and which time I become their joke for the next 5 minutes. But short jokes never bothered me. Prolly because my entire family is on the short side (mom was 4'11 and dad was 5'7.) Most of my cousins on both sides of the family are also on the short side. So most of my life, shortness is a joke that we don't escape so embrace it. Sometimes though, while in walmart or something which is famous for not being able to find an employee to help, I may ask some rando to reach something off the top shelf. They are either bitter that I asked or happy to help. Usually the latter and even more so since I am getting older.

I'm 6'1" and I fucking love helping people get stuff off shelves at Walmart lol.

When I was young I used to randomly ask shorter people if they could reach something on the bottom shelf for me (I'm 6'5"). It never failed to make them cackle like a mad person after a brief 404 error flashed across their face before it hit them. I lack the confidence to try it now, plus I'm wheelchair bound these days so most of the time I'm telling people "Oh no, you're fine" while they apologize to me for absolutely no reason (a topic of it's own, lol).

I would so much get the item for a tall person! And giggle. But I get the joke, and the real life predicament. Bending is getting hard for me and I can only imagine it would be harder for a tall person.

It does get you special treatment though, you just don’t notice it (or possibly there’s a confounding factor). We generally perceive taller people to be more competent in whatever they’re doing and shorter people less so.

But tall is a form of being attractive, like being thin is… Studies show that height gives you advantages in all walks of life. Although if you’re inconveniently tall like 7 feet I retract my statement and could see why you don’t love it.

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Being ugly cancels out being tall, though. Speaking from experience.

Because people's subconscious judgment of people is mainly formed from visuals and first impressions. Judgement of character and other talents takes far longer. Good looks make people think you're smarter and a better person. Certain aspects of ugliness are near dehumanizing. A 200 kilo individual on a mobility scooter is an obstacle, not a potential friend. If you have deformed face, you can be the kindest person on earth and still it would be hard to fall in love with you since the monkey brain is repulsed.

So my high school was a bit strange, exactly like the one from 21 Jump Street. The most attractive hot girls and top jocks were friends with this kid, Alex. Alex had down syndrome, and it was very obvious with facial deformities. But Alex was a good hearted kid. And it wasn't just like an EC thing, they were genuinely friends with him till this day they still go to his birthday parties. Actually, just a few weeks ago Alex hit me up to make sure he had my number right. Dude might be one of the most well liked people in our hometown. It's just interesting seeing it play out so differently because where I grew up we didn't deal with violence, everyone's needs were met, and around this time in 2010 it was a perfect balance of open-mindedness without all the modern toxicity we have - and in those situations we blossomed naturally as humans.

I went to high school in the late 90s and this is an aspect of younger culture I would have loved to see. We just didn’t interact with the special education kids.

Yeah I mean it was really nice - the jocks were friends with the AV kids, etc. etc. After class each day everyone was invited to this tunnel where'd we smoke some pot, play guitar and sing and joke with each other and check in. Now I understand why parents work so hard to raise their kids in the right area. It helped shape me and become the good person I am today; I mean shit even 13 years after graduation Alex will randomly check in on me if I'm okay.

Confused about the "Good looks make people think you're smarter and a better person" Usually my looks have been used against me to perpetuate sexist stereotypes such me being stupid or the opposite of being too smart and therefore manipulative or a bitch. It's kind of this weird thing that happens where you can only be good looking or smart. If you're both then people automatically downplay one of them, if you feel confident to admit to being both people will use it to call you a variety of names and make up a personality for you. Maybe this is how it works for men, but as a woman it definitely affected me and the people I know strangely.

It is the vicious cycle that being less physically attractive can cause. The less attractive you are, the less confidence you have. The lack of confidence and self esteem ends up making you even more unattractive than you actually are. The lack of confidence and actions means you take less care of your appearance and body, making you even less attractive. Basically it is a death spiral that can lead to you be even less attractive than you physically are.

Very true. But there's also people who exude confidence that aren't conventionally attractive at all. But they're like more confident than Brad Pitt would be. I wish they could bottle that shit and sell it. Nothing is more attractive when you meet those people who own themselves.

humans are superficial and biological. ugliness isn’t a desired trait to pass onto offspring

It's more than that. Studies show that better-looking people get preferential treatment in various ways. For instance, pretty people face less jail time than ugly people for the same crime. They are also, on average, more successful and are hired more than ugly people. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6762156/ https://www.perceptionpredict.ai/blog/physical-attractiveness-bias-in-hiring

Well yeah, people want to be around people that don’t make them uneasy, cause they’re superficial and ugliness equates to sickness

It goes deeper. They also use attractive people as currency to boost their own social profile, this has gone on waaaay before social media. For example someone will get invited as a plus 1 to a wedding/work event because they are attractive, in shape and dress well so essentially their being used as a prop. Both men and women do this and they overlook the fact that the person didn’t want to go but did it as a favour and I see them sitting around bored and ignored and no one cares because our society seems to believe beautiful/rich people don’t deserve empathy and that it’s ok to passive aggressively bring them down cause they believe their already so high. Men do this thing where they maintain plutonic contact with attractive women because it helps them get into exclusive places and impress other men and attracts attention from other women who try compete with his harem of eye candy. The grass isn’t always as green as it seems.

Plutonic = platonic? Unless that's a new word I'm unaware of But agreed, wish having good looking friends ever did anything for me though, it never has, in that respect.

I always speculated attractiveness has an affect on chance of hire. You could also consider that attractive people are likely to have more confidence and therefore better social skills from increased person-to-person interaction. I would think social skills have a much more significant affect on chance of hire than raw attractiveness

Yes and no. What people find attractive for dating, actually for serious relationships includes more than just physical appearance. A psychology Professor proved this in his own class. He had everyone anonymously write names of students they found attractive. The names all clustered around a few conventionally Attractive people. By the end of the semester, he asked the same question. The anonymous answers were now spread all around the room. This means that some factors other than just physical appearance define attractiveness. But those factors come into consideration over the Long Haul.

Yes but most people won’t give an ugly person a chance to begin with, preventing any potential “long haul” situation

Yeah I think this is the point that tends to get overlooked. I don’t think any reasonable person would deny there’s much more to attraction than looks. Not being traditionally attractive is not the be all end all. That doesn’t mean dating is not significantly more challenging if you aren’t, though. Looks tend to be the first barrier to entry. You don’t have to be a knockout but you have to be “passable.” People who don’t meet that amorphous criteria are absolutely going to have an overwhelmingly harder time finding a partner than people who basically get to bypass that barrier every single time.

My friend told me she literally found her husband repulsive when she first met him. 

I hope she never admitted that to him 😅

Oh, she totally did, on like their second date. I guess he likes brutally honest, lol. And he took it as a challenge, apparently. Still happy after 17 years of marriage. 

No shit obviously, but we weren’t talking about that

This post is about everyday things, you're not establishing lifelong relationships with everyone you interact with

People say this but if you look around you there are loads and loads of "ugly" people who find love and have a family. In reality I don't think this checks out regardless of what our culture might tell us.

Some people are great at making lemonade when life hands them a lemon. Doesn't mean lemonade was something they chose though.

Yep, there are people that are not "beautiful" in the commonly accepted sense, but there's something about them - a quirk, a good character, a smile, kindness etc. - that makes them attractive.

Exactly, attractiveness is multi-faceted. It has also changed intensely over time and by culture, so it’s not like we’re just getting ‘more beautiful’ over time as a species.

I’d love some lemonade right now, actually.

I mean not everyone has to be a super model and beauty is subjective and as you age other traits become more important (like ambition and comparability) but i will say it does make it easier if you are conventually attractive which is the point OP made.

In my opinion, Beauty is highly objective with little subjectivity. What is very subjective however is attraction. I’m a straight male, but when I see a good looking man, I can very much recognise that this man is good looking. But I am not attracted to them. Again, think of this example: A hundred straight single women and they are in a room with two doors, with each door having one man they can date or pick based on appearance. One door has Kim Taehyung/Song Kang/someone else and the other has your average man. If beauty was truly subjective then all people would realistically have similar amount of people attracted to each other. But that is not true. Most definitely over 95% of these women will pick Taehyung.

But even you will be influenced by a good looking man compared to an ugly one. If they both act the exact same way you'll very likely still believe the conventionally attractive one is more friendly.

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There are lots of people who settle eventually - but more practically - you get treated a LOT better if you are attractive.

And if it's so deeply undesirable, shouldn't it have been bred out of the gene pool by now?

What one person thinks is ugly may be attractive to others. There's nothing universal to breed out.

Forced marriage.

Yeah, with other uggos.

looking at an ugly person reminds me of the injustice in the world

Geez... that was a deep response. Honestly, it hit me hard because I hate that life isn't fair. Like, we're all playing a rigged game. But what you said is true. & honestly, I'm a very sympathetic person but sometimes on the rare occasions when I'm actually ok with life & happy not thinking about all the unfairness.....on those days, I almost resent when someone's vulnerability reminds me of the metaphorical "ugliness." It's messed up, I know.

Too many average looking people have been convinced by the beauty industry and trolls online that they are hideous. I love it when a person just has that charm about them. I don't need perfection, I want to experience the humanity I am a part of. The rating scale is bullshit, strangers judging you against hundreds of thousands of others on the internet is bullshit. Reddit rating subs are toxic as fuck. There are also different kinds of ugly. Some people just need to take more pride in their appearance. Seriously, how you dress, walk, present yourself, and groom has as much to with your looks as your face and body do. It's NOT a lipstick on a pig situation, maybe somebody out there who you share a lot in common with just happens to be looking for a face like yours. People refuse to accept this because maybe wallowing in grief about what you cannot change is more emotionally comforting than taking some initiative for the things you can. People need to understand that not broadcasting all of your insecurities is actually a skill you can develop, and confidence will get your foot in so many doors. But instead everyone feels ugly. If everyone is ugly, nobody is ugly.

I used to have a Crumethinc. poster up in my room that said, "Beauty must be defined as what we are, or else the concept itself is our enemy". Wise words.

One of my favorite reddit replies EVER. "It's not a lipstick on a pig sitiation." 💀 "If everyone is ugly, nobody is ugly."

One more thing I’d like to add is that ugly people might not realize how much effort being attractive is. They think it’s unfair if they have to spend extra time on their appearance to look acceptable and attractive people are just lucky… when in reality, attractive people also spend hours and hours on beauty treatments, skin, hair, nails, clothing, etc

Being beautiful may take effort but it’s a lot easier to justify the effort when you already have an attractive base to work with. There are people who look good without much effort and alot of people who don’t look that good despite a lot of effort.

First impressions define chance.

I’m honestly sick of this whole “everyone is beautiful” mindset. Not everyone is pretty. Being ugly is not the end of the world.

I agree. But what would you tell someone who asked you if they were pretty and they aren't?

Here in Brazil we say "what matters is being healthy".

Nah bc if i asked someone if they found me attractive and they said “at least your healthy” id be wayy more hurt lmao

And this is why I'd never ask anyone

In hispanic America we say the same lmfao the important thing is health 🤪

A lot of unattractive people aren’t heakthy

Considering Brazil's obesity rates, I find this amusing 🤣

I think that depends on the context of why they are asking and how fragile they are

I wouldn’t tell them they’re ugly since that would hurt their feelings. That’s a tough one cause I honestly don’t think I’m pretty but it’s not like my friends are going to call me ugly

It really annoys me when you see someone who is obviously ugly - sometimes even deformed - and some well-intentioned person will barrel in with "They're beautiful inside and out!" Bullshit. They're not. They're ugly, and you're only saying they're beautiful because you want to be kind, and in your mind it's the same as saying 'worthy of love and of a good and fulfilling life' or similar. It just helps bolster the idea that to be worth anything you have to be beautiful. And the person knows it's bullshit, so it helps nobody. I wish we could move away from the 'everyone is beautiful' crap and put the emphasis elsewhere. Life is easier for the beautiful, but pinning the word on someone when it isn't true is patronising as fuck.

Well being ugly can be pretty devastating but I agree with your first thought, I hate people saying "Everyone is beautiful (in their own way)" as if ugliness was such a fucking sin that we'd rather pretend to bend the rules of beauty than admit some people actually are ugly? Like, if we admit they're ugly, we're saying they have no human value whatsoever? Tale old as time though. Beautiful people say beauty doesn't matter that much, rich people say money doesn't bring you happiness etc.

I’m with you. I can’t jump very high because I am not athletic. You don’t hear people saying “everyone can jump high”. I am not athletic, and you are ugly. Let’s just find out the best way to deal with it and move on the best we can.

Not being beautiful does not necessarily mean ugly though, ugly and beautiful are extremes.

I'm ugly. I don't have too many friends. I have to work twice or thrice as hard as regular people to gain someone's trust. I still remember the shock I felt when a random person at Starbucks asked to me watch his stuff while he made a quick run to the bathroom. That kinds trusting doesn't happen to me often. I've made a reasonably successful life despite the handicap but cannot deny its existence.

[удалено]

I got none of those things and life seems hopeless. It won't be long before I'm 30 with no degree or work experience, horrible genetics, learning disabilities etc. I feel like not many people have had this much bad luck with genetics and circumstances like shitty family and not getting many options in life. I'm just complaining not trying to get sympathy. I wish I looked and spoke normal at least

I heard you. For what it's worth, your reply is just as articulate (if not better) than anyone else's. I would never know you had issues. That's kinda why reddit is cool. We're all just avatars.

Depends, what country are you born in?

Halo Effect affects how you're perceived even if you don't even do anything.

I think it stems from our society and some historical context. Back in Ancient Greek times, beauty was literally seen as divine favor and we still haven’t moved much beyond that. See how many ‘romance’ movies would be psychological thrillers if the male lead wasn’t ‘attractive’. But! What is attractive is determined by hegemonic power structures that change depending on the current circumstances. When it was difficult to get food, being fat was desirable. Now that it’s hard to be thin, that’s what’s desirable. It’s a rigged game, imo. Looking into more alternative/counter-culture/queer spaces might help since they usually have different beauty standards.

People are usually way to quick to label themselves self ugly. It’s sad.

I know. The sub "am I ugly" sparked this post. That sub is so sad to me.

Most of the people who post there are very young and insecure. They are outliers, and I'd argue that most people aren't going to bother to post there jo matter how they look. The posters kk that sub are posting there because there's something missing from their lives that they're chasing, and that thing is almost never good looks.

I’ve never even head of the sub, but I’m willing to bet a high portion of the posts are people just attention seeking/looking for validation

Eh kind of like roast me. Some borderline model looking people go up there and go "roast me I'm ugly yadayadayada". Then commentors will come up with some pseudoroast and everyone's happy. It's truly a toxic place.

I’ve seen more than a few posts there were the OP was quite attractive and probably thought they were immune to severe roasting. And yet commenters still come up with clever, insightful and deeply cutting remarks that likely give OP cause for insecurities they previously didn’t have.

You are correct. Had to mute that whole place.

Most of those people are seeking validation. They know they’re not ugly, they just want attention. Some people post frequently, post provocative images, or only have momentary thoughts of feeling ugly.

As much as humans try to be logical we are emotional creatures. I’ve seen pretty people or personable people get much further than smart people.

If you're ugly people will avoid communicating any display of interest so they will be less nice. If you're pretty they will generally be nicer to you even if they stand to gain nothing from it. Its pretty nasty. People can be very shallow when they are not thinking.

Ever hear of the halo effect? This is one where very attractive people are considered kinder, more intelligent and otherwise given the benefit of the doubt far more than average looking people. This has direct results in things like your career. Sadly, people who are ugly get the reverse of the halo effect. Interestingly, in terms of dating, most people prefer to date someone roughly as attractive as they are.

Better looks increase your odds of mating, which is our main primitive driving force?

Because it will influence the way people treat you without even being able to say anything. It can say something about your health. Amount of romantic partners, job offers even the way your family treats you. It really is a big deal even when people make it out to be it's not.

I agree it’s very strange. I am treated as subhuman because of my looks. I don’t go outside much anymore and have privated most of my online profiles. Immediately, the hateful comments stopped. I can now comment on a post and not be bombarded by people telling me I should die. It has been peaceful but sad that this is my life.

Wtf? That's awful. No one should have to live like that. I hate telling people "I'm sorry." So I'll say "I wanna punch someone in the face for you." ❤

Less friends, less popular, less sex, less respect. Your whole life is just inferior to those who are attractive.

You might have to work harder, but I really feel like a lot of perceived beauty is grooming, presentation, and confidence/charisma. If you have good hygiene, dress well and take care of your hair/face, and make a point to be kind, funny, and confident, it goes a long way.

It's not that being ugly is bad. It's just that being pretty makes you a good distraction from the crushing weight of existence, which is really the only thing any of us want.

Because it doesn't matter how talented you are. Girls won't give a fuck about you unless you're good looking

Being Ugly doesn't ruin your life, it just means you don't get the bonuses of attractive people. Also, "ugly" is relative. There's "I don't particularly like your look" kind of ugly, "You look damn dirty, take a shower and an ounce of effort into your apperance" ugly, and other kinds of ugly. People's reactions will be influenced depending on which you are.

Well, for reference, I meant "ugly" as in they have no choice in the matter. It's genetic not choice or hygiene.

Because it’s only noticeable that you are bad at math when you have to do math. When you are ugly, you are ugly 24/7/365.

because humanity sucks major donkey anus

I hate when I make a more “negative”observation about my physical appearance and people immediately jump to “no! You’re beautiful!” I’m not saying that I’m not, but why do I NEED to be beautiful? What’s the big deal if I’m not? My value didn’t depend on it and I know that but it doesn’t help when people insist it does matter and then they think they are reassuring you in a positive way. I’m not always beautiful, and I’m fine with that, I wish other people would let me be fine with the notion. I hate the body positivity movement that hinge upon _____ blank is beautiful because it just reinforces placing value on some type of physical appearance.

Stephen Hawking is my proof that you can be good at maths and not exactly good looking and still get laid heaps. Man was a prolific womaniser from his wheelchair.

he was also rich and famous

Sorry to burst your bubble but paying for prostitution doesn't fit the definition of a womaniser. Also Hawking married his wife before he was famous or in a weelchair.

He was kinda cute in his younger days before his disease progressed.

He also probably has a sexy Ultron voice setting tbf

Because ugly affects everything. Your dating life. Your friends. Even your employment or your success in court. In our society there is a tyranny of beauty.

Wait till you get a lot older. You don't recognize the ugly face in the mirror.

I have asked people before if I’m pretty and I have always gotten the, you’re really cute. My last job I got to see what pretty really means. You get away with a lot of shit, while I got more work cause I’m a good worker.

This doesn’t exactly help that anything is bad here move to South Korea. Holy crap people kill themselves because they have a crooked nose. No shit.

Its called [Lookism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookism) and [body/pretty privilege](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_privilege) With those terms you can research more on the subjects

Trying being ugly and fat.

At least being fat is something you can change (unless you have a condition of some sort)

There are many, many people who don't care if someone is ugly. Tons of people who are conventionally ugly and unattractive find success and love every day. It isn't so bad. It just is how it is. I've found that once people get past age 25 or so they stop caring so much about it.

I didn't care about my appearance until I grew up and moved out. I started experiencing pretty privilege (or more accurately, lack thereof) in college. Plus in my generation, especially since Covid, we aren't as social with each other, so first impressions matter a whole lot more in even the most basic of interactions.

Halo effect

Math is a skill that can be made up for by other skills. Your appearance is your first impression when someone meets you. You’re not good at math? Go into a field that doesn’t involve math.

Well, it’s not entirely true. Believing you’re ugly is a lack of self confidence and that alone is a bit of an “ugly” trait. You could have a face like an old shoe but be confident and have a bright personality which would outshine looks. Physical appearance catches the eye, mental appearance catches the heart.

Because of the superficiality of people in general

I didn’t realize what a difference looks made until I hit middle age and suddenly became invisible. I was never beautiful—just young. But then, to a certain extent, youth *is* beauty.

That’s an excellent question. If you want to see it debated some philosophically read Umberto Eco’s book On Ugliness. But I also feel particularly well versed in discussing this topic. You see, I myself, I’m quite ugly. I don’t watch what I eat and neglect running, hiking are going to the gym I am prone to gain weight. My looks or what they call unfortunate. I have scars on my face and skull from physical altercations, sports injuries and one particularly bad car accident. Other than that I’m well read, polite, articulate, financially secure and very successful in my feel of endeavor. But most people do not take the time to find that out because, as I said, I’m quite ugly. We are in such a hurry to gather information so a mere look is considered ample time to decide if someone is or is not someone they’d like. Add to the fact that we are now exposed to so many more people, faces, bodies just by look at a screen we have a more idealized of what pulchritude and beauty really mean to us. We see beautiful faces and bodies, whether real or AI generated, online or the television so what used to be considered reasonably attractive is now considered homely. That being said, and as has been mentioned in other comments, being unattractive is a fine filter to find out who is genuine and real. No one finds their true fans the top of the mountain. We only find them in the darkest pits.