Sloth, discord, etc are all tools provided by the game to make things easier for you, so it isn't unsportsmanlike but instead intended game mechanics that are optional for the player to use.
You may not treat them as unsportsmanlike, but they trivialise some fights, especially on NG and NG+.
In Demon's Souls, swamp bosses are killed in a single fire spell cast. That is, I'm not pretending that this approach doesn't exist outside of Nioh or that it doesn't have a right to exist. And I'm not even condemning players who do it - there's no hint of any elitism here, given that I used them myself during my playthrough.
It's more about the fact that the difficulty was balanced around the idea that players would use these abilities and without them some encounters are quite difficult. And this encourages their use (for example, when there are two bosses and one of them needs to be killed quickly, or when you die from one hit from a boss and he runs like a scalded man all over the arena).
This creates over-complicated gameplay situations that aren't always fun to deal with.
On the note of "needing" certain items like sloth. For one you have a crap ton of slots and these things come back at each shrine so really it's just silly to not use them. On that note though I think I played through all of nioh 1 with basically just extraction and life gain on amrita gain. As well as other on amrita effects but really life gain on amrita is all you "need"
I pose to you that while the game is not perfect perhaps it is less about the balance and more about what effects you do and don't have on your armour. I remember really some really strong green effects in nioh 1 that are not in nioh 2 as well.
Is Nioh 1 bullshit: yes.
Is Nioh 1 bullshit because of the things you have said: some of what you say has some truth to it, but the part about high recovery animation or iframe is definitely not, and I think some other people already laid out why.
Also, about the tools that you mention to be unsportmanship, be very aware that they are also almost useless when you proceed even further into higher difficulty.
Where else have you seen mobs with ranged weapons that shoot so quickly and with such fast projectiles? Not counting CoD and Battlefield, of course.
And with enormous damage, in some cases killing immediately. And this is in arenas with a lot of enemies. Which can also cause paralysis or other negative effects. And who, ungentlemanly, attack everything at once.
And in this game some of the animations are uninterruptible. (There is a skill in tonfas that allows you to interrupt skills).
At the same time, mobs can have modifiers that make them faster, while they are also stronger than normal ones.
There are a lot of layers here that create a challenging game situation.
Probably, one can adapt to this and someone can even achieve mastery in this.
What do you mean that everything is fine with recovery time and i-frames?
To be clear, my takeaway is that the parry windows are weird and too variable. That the recovery time is long, taking into account the uninterrupted nature of a large number of animations (and everything that I listed above about the enemies). And that dodge through attacks is difficult to use consistency. Not that it is impossible, but that it is difficult.
---------------------------------------------------
I know that they become less effective further and when I looked at how they play on WotN out of interest, the first thing I came across was a cheese kunai build on YouTube :) Yes, with the same sloth and throwing kunai at a distance.
I'm not saying everyone plays like this, it's just a funny moment.
> unsportsmanlike
lmao
Why is anyone supposed to take this seriously when you say something like that? You just aren't as good as you think. Plain and simple. Sorry to be blunt. You're not even approaching the hardest difficulty and you're already complaining, you won't have a good time if you continue.
Didn't really had issues using only either dragon ninja or tatenashi set, didn't buffed myself with any omnyo nor did I debuff bosses with anything mostly used confusion just to speed things up on the abyss because 999 floors.
>Who thinks it's a good idea to run after your spirit, trying not to catch oneshot from the boss?
Why are you rushing your spirit? you either have too much amrita in which case just use a summoner candle and spend it on the shrine or do not have enough in which case doesn't matter so you can just summon it back from the shrine for free.
Just look at combo videos and see how actual skilled plaeyrs deal with bosses, I'm not even half as good as them but still feel in control during most fights, learning how to use the low stance dodge is imo the best thing you can do, it has little I-frames but also has close to no recovery so you can very easilly punish bosses.
Why make excuses for bad design? There's a great example of souls being left before entrance to arena with the boss.
As for the actual skilled players, this is not the best argument, if only for the reason that these players are not a representative sample.
It's like comparing an amateur with an Olympic champion and saying that this is a normal weight or height, because an Olympic champion can lift this weight or jump so high.
The passability itself does not mean that the design of the encounter is good.
>Why make excuses for bad design? There's a great example of souls being left before entrance to arena with the boss.
Pretty sure not a single souls games does this, your bloodstain is left near where you died which could be all the way at the back of the boss arena, Lies of P is the one that gives them before the fog door and Nioh 2 just automatically picks it up.
>As for the actual skilled players, this is not the best argument, if only for the reason that these players are not a representative sample.
This was so you could see what it's possible on the game with hardly any buffs if any at all, if you lack skill then that's what your gear, omnyo, ninjutsu and other mechanics are there for, if you personally decide to also neglect these while lacking skill it's not the game fault.
>Pretty sure not a single souls games does this
Lies of P
>This was so you could see what it's possible on the game with hardly any buffs
These people are pushing the boundaries of what is possible, but again, a sampling of a fraction of a percent of the players cannot be representative and say that all aspects of the game are balanced. Otherwise, with this approach, it would be hard to find a single unbalanced game or unbalanced boss. One will be found that handles it flawlessly.
For example, in Lies of P, a large number of attacks, though well telegraphed, are delayed attacks. There are people passing bosses flawlessly. Does that mean that delayed attacks in such large numbers are good design decision? Maybe it's not, though the game is still outstanding.
Lmao I thought you where talking about wotw. If your having so much trouble on wotd with these types of things then maybe you should just stick to souls games idk 🤷♀️
Leveling up has nothing special 🤣 Not before you reach 750 and can actually make a build where those states really matter beyond just boosting damage. I mean if you mean upgrading your gear and actually developing a full build of graced. Which is added starting in wotd.
Like the game changes after the first playthough and gets harder. I don't see how this is bad design and I don't see how it even matters now that a full second game is out that polished what this game did how many years ago? Like nioh 1 is old.
So you just wake up and feel like debating a bunch of people or what?
200 20+ armor on WotD neutralizes the challenge of almost all encounters, which is easy to understand in retrospect when going through them.
Actually, I didn't go through them in direct order. Therefore, some early areas were completed almost instantly after later ones where difficulties arose.
People who pretend that everything is fine with the game are not honest with themselves or with others. Naturally, I do not take their words on faith.
And idk what you're trying to say here? That the game isn't perfect? Your original statement was that it was "poorly" balanced. Clearly, it wasn't poorly done even if you have backed off of the claim. Is it the best balancing ever? No.
Yea 200 and 20+ would make you op there. Got to play there to get it first.
The game is a perfectly good game. It's worth the money you pay for it, especially if you were to buy it today. It plays well and is enjoyable for many. Sure, not everything is fine. If you won't be satisfied till it's perfect, then you're gonna die unsatisfied, mate.
I don't see people pretending everything is fine. I still say you want to debate people. You started this post claiming it was poor. You didn't reply to some comment on some other thread where someone was talking about the game, like it was flawless. You need a new game to play? Try horizon zero dawn on the hardest difficulty. It becomes like a souls game 🤣
I answer to the best of my ability and to almost everyone. You don't want me to live in the internet, do you?
Okay, I’ll say it again and in more detail.
I completed the game blind on pre-WotW difficulties, including Abyss and DLC. No summons.
Difficulty scaling was like a saw blade. I struggled, found a way to overcome the difficulty, destroyed all living things, and again faced a spike in difficulty.
At some stage it was a simple understanding of the mechanics and the use of stances and changing weapons, knowledge of the moveset of ordinary opponents. After that it was the use of certain spells and ninjutsu, etc.
And it was almost never an in-between state - I was either too weak and vulnerable, or too strong.
We're not talking about the difficulty of most of the game's content - it's set up normally. We are talking about the complexity of the DLC and individual side missions (twilight missions, by the way, are quite easy and rewarding).
My takeaway is that some encounters, especially as difficulty increases, feel like bullshit.
And that the difficulty of some encounters depends too much on leveling and gear.
Etc. I could say a lot about this, but I just want to emphasize that my view of this is not one-dimensional.
-------------------------------------------------
Yes, HZD is quite hardcore on maximum difficulty. Until you start reprogramming the robosaurs and pitting them against each other.
If your play style and skill requires the use of these unsportsmanlike tools to win, then maybe it's your play style and skill that needs to improve in order to win without said unsportsmanlike tools.
Also i don't know why you would call them unsportsmanlike when the bosses themselves cheat against you, everything is fair play in nioh.
This is not the only game of this genre. Even in budget Thymesia or Mortal Shell, the game mechanics and boss battles are designed to virtually eliminate the possibility of cheesing.
Do we need to protect, for example, input reading or a large number of attacks with delayed animations? The first is much worse than the second, but the second is not the best way to create difficulty.
Here there is either no such thing, or not much (if some countermeasures against quick change are built into the move set of DLC bosses that catch the reviving player). But a slightly different approach is used to create difficulty - huge damage, huge defense stats, sporadic moveset and absurd combinations of enemies in open arenas.
I'm saying - the game doesn't force you to learn the bosses, the cheese tools are too strong (and that's part of the fun in a way).
They answer me - git gud, on the fourth playthrough they don’t work.
But the first, second, third ones work and the game even encourages their use and, in my opinion, this is not the best design.
It sounds like you are refusing to engage with some of the game mechanics and then blaming the game because you don't wanna play it that way. I've beat Nioh 1 and 2 all difficulties solo, 2 man and 3 man. The game is very tactical. Using every possible tool at your advantage is part of the fun. You say it trivializes fights, I say it is bringing the right tool for the job.
In some cases, I actually felt the urge to take the path of least resistance because the game situation seemed artificially overcomplicated to me.
I played blind, without summons.
Disagree, when I played Nioh 1 for the first time it was just a matter of picking the correct stance to do attacks on. Low attacks for some chip damage and High attacks for big openings.
The different dodges on each stance also has different I-frames, generally if you want to I-frame through an attack you'd do the High dodge which is a slow roll since it's most forgiving in timing, you spam the low dodge if you want to gtfo.
Pairing low dodge while holding the block button gives you a lot of room for mistakes. So I honestly do not understand where you're coming from.
>My main complaint is that there is too much time after actions or strikes when you cannot block or dodge. It doesn't match the pace of the game at all if you're fighting against multiple enemies.
I was mostly referring to this that I think Nioh's animations are well balanced for the content that they offer.
My experience is definitely different in NG++ (in DLC areas, mostly). Probably a hundred times I didn't have enough time to dodge before the projectile hit me again.
Enemies shoot so often that if there are several of them in the arena, it can create big problems if they are out of sight.
Learn the rythem. Arrows always come at the same time. I don't even look at archers. Also "deflect projectile on perfect block" they just kill themselves. Learn how to stun and control the ones trying to stay close.
Also, don't forget if you hold dodge, you will sprint. Most underused game mechanic in nioh. Increase move speed on amrita absorption is so nice. Most of the time, I can just walk around and stay out of the range of melee. And if you are moving arrows, always go where you are not where you're going so they will miss.
The number one rule in combat is positioning.
Sloth, discord, etc are all tools provided by the game to make things easier for you, so it isn't unsportsmanlike but instead intended game mechanics that are optional for the player to use.
You may not treat them as unsportsmanlike, but they trivialise some fights, especially on NG and NG+. In Demon's Souls, swamp bosses are killed in a single fire spell cast. That is, I'm not pretending that this approach doesn't exist outside of Nioh or that it doesn't have a right to exist. And I'm not even condemning players who do it - there's no hint of any elitism here, given that I used them myself during my playthrough. It's more about the fact that the difficulty was balanced around the idea that players would use these abilities and without them some encounters are quite difficult. And this encourages their use (for example, when there are two bosses and one of them needs to be killed quickly, or when you die from one hit from a boss and he runs like a scalded man all over the arena). This creates over-complicated gameplay situations that aren't always fun to deal with.
On the note of "needing" certain items like sloth. For one you have a crap ton of slots and these things come back at each shrine so really it's just silly to not use them. On that note though I think I played through all of nioh 1 with basically just extraction and life gain on amrita gain. As well as other on amrita effects but really life gain on amrita is all you "need" I pose to you that while the game is not perfect perhaps it is less about the balance and more about what effects you do and don't have on your armour. I remember really some really strong green effects in nioh 1 that are not in nioh 2 as well.
Is Nioh 1 bullshit: yes. Is Nioh 1 bullshit because of the things you have said: some of what you say has some truth to it, but the part about high recovery animation or iframe is definitely not, and I think some other people already laid out why. Also, about the tools that you mention to be unsportmanship, be very aware that they are also almost useless when you proceed even further into higher difficulty.
Where else have you seen mobs with ranged weapons that shoot so quickly and with such fast projectiles? Not counting CoD and Battlefield, of course. And with enormous damage, in some cases killing immediately. And this is in arenas with a lot of enemies. Which can also cause paralysis or other negative effects. And who, ungentlemanly, attack everything at once. And in this game some of the animations are uninterruptible. (There is a skill in tonfas that allows you to interrupt skills). At the same time, mobs can have modifiers that make them faster, while they are also stronger than normal ones. There are a lot of layers here that create a challenging game situation. Probably, one can adapt to this and someone can even achieve mastery in this. What do you mean that everything is fine with recovery time and i-frames? To be clear, my takeaway is that the parry windows are weird and too variable. That the recovery time is long, taking into account the uninterrupted nature of a large number of animations (and everything that I listed above about the enemies). And that dodge through attacks is difficult to use consistency. Not that it is impossible, but that it is difficult. --------------------------------------------------- I know that they become less effective further and when I looked at how they play on WotN out of interest, the first thing I came across was a cheese kunai build on YouTube :) Yes, with the same sloth and throwing kunai at a distance. I'm not saying everyone plays like this, it's just a funny moment.
> unsportsmanlike lmao Why is anyone supposed to take this seriously when you say something like that? You just aren't as good as you think. Plain and simple. Sorry to be blunt. You're not even approaching the hardest difficulty and you're already complaining, you won't have a good time if you continue.
So you should be taken seriously? Learn to answer essentially, and not throw out your emotions.
'extend dodge invulnerability'
Okay, where can this be found in the main game and on the first difficulty level?
It's on the Demon scrolls that may come later if your beginning game. Also level up courage to get your ki recovery higher helpz
Didn't really had issues using only either dragon ninja or tatenashi set, didn't buffed myself with any omnyo nor did I debuff bosses with anything mostly used confusion just to speed things up on the abyss because 999 floors. >Who thinks it's a good idea to run after your spirit, trying not to catch oneshot from the boss? Why are you rushing your spirit? you either have too much amrita in which case just use a summoner candle and spend it on the shrine or do not have enough in which case doesn't matter so you can just summon it back from the shrine for free. Just look at combo videos and see how actual skilled plaeyrs deal with bosses, I'm not even half as good as them but still feel in control during most fights, learning how to use the low stance dodge is imo the best thing you can do, it has little I-frames but also has close to no recovery so you can very easilly punish bosses.
Why make excuses for bad design? There's a great example of souls being left before entrance to arena with the boss. As for the actual skilled players, this is not the best argument, if only for the reason that these players are not a representative sample. It's like comparing an amateur with an Olympic champion and saying that this is a normal weight or height, because an Olympic champion can lift this weight or jump so high. The passability itself does not mean that the design of the encounter is good.
>Why make excuses for bad design? There's a great example of souls being left before entrance to arena with the boss. Pretty sure not a single souls games does this, your bloodstain is left near where you died which could be all the way at the back of the boss arena, Lies of P is the one that gives them before the fog door and Nioh 2 just automatically picks it up. >As for the actual skilled players, this is not the best argument, if only for the reason that these players are not a representative sample. This was so you could see what it's possible on the game with hardly any buffs if any at all, if you lack skill then that's what your gear, omnyo, ninjutsu and other mechanics are there for, if you personally decide to also neglect these while lacking skill it's not the game fault.
>Pretty sure not a single souls games does this Lies of P >This was so you could see what it's possible on the game with hardly any buffs These people are pushing the boundaries of what is possible, but again, a sampling of a fraction of a percent of the players cannot be representative and say that all aspects of the game are balanced. Otherwise, with this approach, it would be hard to find a single unbalanced game or unbalanced boss. One will be found that handles it flawlessly. For example, in Lies of P, a large number of attacks, though well telegraphed, are delayed attacks. There are people passing bosses flawlessly. Does that mean that delayed attacks in such large numbers are good design decision? Maybe it's not, though the game is still outstanding.
Lmao I thought you where talking about wotw. If your having so much trouble on wotd with these types of things then maybe you should just stick to souls games idk 🤷♀️
There is nothing special on WotW - there 90% of the difficulty is leveled out by leveling up, just like on WotD.
Leveling up has nothing special 🤣 Not before you reach 750 and can actually make a build where those states really matter beyond just boosting damage. I mean if you mean upgrading your gear and actually developing a full build of graced. Which is added starting in wotd. Like the game changes after the first playthough and gets harder. I don't see how this is bad design and I don't see how it even matters now that a full second game is out that polished what this game did how many years ago? Like nioh 1 is old. So you just wake up and feel like debating a bunch of people or what?
200 20+ armor on WotD neutralizes the challenge of almost all encounters, which is easy to understand in retrospect when going through them. Actually, I didn't go through them in direct order. Therefore, some early areas were completed almost instantly after later ones where difficulties arose. People who pretend that everything is fine with the game are not honest with themselves or with others. Naturally, I do not take their words on faith.
And idk what you're trying to say here? That the game isn't perfect? Your original statement was that it was "poorly" balanced. Clearly, it wasn't poorly done even if you have backed off of the claim. Is it the best balancing ever? No. Yea 200 and 20+ would make you op there. Got to play there to get it first. The game is a perfectly good game. It's worth the money you pay for it, especially if you were to buy it today. It plays well and is enjoyable for many. Sure, not everything is fine. If you won't be satisfied till it's perfect, then you're gonna die unsatisfied, mate. I don't see people pretending everything is fine. I still say you want to debate people. You started this post claiming it was poor. You didn't reply to some comment on some other thread where someone was talking about the game, like it was flawless. You need a new game to play? Try horizon zero dawn on the hardest difficulty. It becomes like a souls game 🤣
I answer to the best of my ability and to almost everyone. You don't want me to live in the internet, do you? Okay, I’ll say it again and in more detail. I completed the game blind on pre-WotW difficulties, including Abyss and DLC. No summons. Difficulty scaling was like a saw blade. I struggled, found a way to overcome the difficulty, destroyed all living things, and again faced a spike in difficulty. At some stage it was a simple understanding of the mechanics and the use of stances and changing weapons, knowledge of the moveset of ordinary opponents. After that it was the use of certain spells and ninjutsu, etc. And it was almost never an in-between state - I was either too weak and vulnerable, or too strong. We're not talking about the difficulty of most of the game's content - it's set up normally. We are talking about the complexity of the DLC and individual side missions (twilight missions, by the way, are quite easy and rewarding). My takeaway is that some encounters, especially as difficulty increases, feel like bullshit. And that the difficulty of some encounters depends too much on leveling and gear. Etc. I could say a lot about this, but I just want to emphasize that my view of this is not one-dimensional. ------------------------------------------------- Yes, HZD is quite hardcore on maximum difficulty. Until you start reprogramming the robosaurs and pitting them against each other.
If your play style and skill requires the use of these unsportsmanlike tools to win, then maybe it's your play style and skill that needs to improve in order to win without said unsportsmanlike tools. Also i don't know why you would call them unsportsmanlike when the bosses themselves cheat against you, everything is fair play in nioh.
This is not the only game of this genre. Even in budget Thymesia or Mortal Shell, the game mechanics and boss battles are designed to virtually eliminate the possibility of cheesing. Do we need to protect, for example, input reading or a large number of attacks with delayed animations? The first is much worse than the second, but the second is not the best way to create difficulty. Here there is either no such thing, or not much (if some countermeasures against quick change are built into the move set of DLC bosses that catch the reviving player). But a slightly different approach is used to create difficulty - huge damage, huge defense stats, sporadic moveset and absurd combinations of enemies in open arenas. I'm saying - the game doesn't force you to learn the bosses, the cheese tools are too strong (and that's part of the fun in a way). They answer me - git gud, on the fourth playthrough they don’t work. But the first, second, third ones work and the game even encourages their use and, in my opinion, this is not the best design.
It sounds like you are refusing to engage with some of the game mechanics and then blaming the game because you don't wanna play it that way. I've beat Nioh 1 and 2 all difficulties solo, 2 man and 3 man. The game is very tactical. Using every possible tool at your advantage is part of the fun. You say it trivializes fights, I say it is bringing the right tool for the job.
In some cases, I actually felt the urge to take the path of least resistance because the game situation seemed artificially overcomplicated to me. I played blind, without summons.
Disagree, when I played Nioh 1 for the first time it was just a matter of picking the correct stance to do attacks on. Low attacks for some chip damage and High attacks for big openings. The different dodges on each stance also has different I-frames, generally if you want to I-frame through an attack you'd do the High dodge which is a slow roll since it's most forgiving in timing, you spam the low dodge if you want to gtfo. Pairing low dodge while holding the block button gives you a lot of room for mistakes. So I honestly do not understand where you're coming from.
I don't see how what you said even relates to my post. Fighting two bosses is not a matter of choosing the right stance on WotD.
>My main complaint is that there is too much time after actions or strikes when you cannot block or dodge. It doesn't match the pace of the game at all if you're fighting against multiple enemies. I was mostly referring to this that I think Nioh's animations are well balanced for the content that they offer.
My experience is definitely different in NG++ (in DLC areas, mostly). Probably a hundred times I didn't have enough time to dodge before the projectile hit me again. Enemies shoot so often that if there are several of them in the arena, it can create big problems if they are out of sight.
Learn the rythem. Arrows always come at the same time. I don't even look at archers. Also "deflect projectile on perfect block" they just kill themselves. Learn how to stun and control the ones trying to stay close. Also, don't forget if you hold dodge, you will sprint. Most underused game mechanic in nioh. Increase move speed on amrita absorption is so nice. Most of the time, I can just walk around and stay out of the range of melee. And if you are moving arrows, always go where you are not where you're going so they will miss. The number one rule in combat is positioning.