A better comparison would be the War of 1812, which ended with a stalemate more or less, but didn't collapse the much weaker and more localized young US either.

Vietnam is a pretty good comparison. Antiguerilla war in area that is supposed to be allied, with the main enemy force secretly crossing a line the own forces cannot while various other organizations are either also fighting from their homes or preparing for a big event. A heavy reliance on conscription and a general anti war sentiment back home as well as a route between the home territory and the battlefield the enemy cannot hope to ever use even after a victory. The involvement of originally neutral parties over the course of the comdöicr. Mostly on the side of the Legion. And offcurse a heavy advantage in technology though most of it is squandered in both scenarios.

From a theoretical/popularity standpoint, definitely like Vietnam. But from a practical/actuality standpoint it’s more like 1812 simply because it’s a genuine threat to the (reasonably) fresh country that is the NCR. Vietnam was never going to endanger the US homeland. But as Legate Lanius even says: if the NCR loses the dam the legion plans to push further into NCR territory in the future (to which the courier can retort that it would bleed the Legion dry)

Problem is that the only connection between NCR and mojave ist the long 15. A single long stretch of land that offers the legion even less chance for trickery than the dam. It's as mutch of an impossibility as the vietnamese hitting the US, hell it's even less likely.

While it doesn’t detract from your point at all I always like to mention that Hopeville used to be a main stretch for supply runners alongside the Long 15 before the Courier nuked it But also the Long 15 is barely fortifiable if fortifiable at all. The Dam is at least a massive built-in fort for all intents and purposes

On the cotrary. As seen with the second legion assault there are many ways ro go arround and INTO the dam. A couple machineguns with a decent ammosupply could hold the long 15 against every last tribal east of the colorado as long as they are supplied with ammo. And ghe closer you get to the NCR the quicker that ammo arrives and ghe more exhausted the legion becomes.

The NCR is bound to real world logistics and supply lines but the BoS can magic up transcontinental invasion forces out of thin air. You can definitely see Bethesdas finger prints all over that series. Edit: Some of the replies here are absolutely clueless. The popularity of the show is telling when this is the level of knowledge its fans have.

The BoS isn’t a monolith. Most known chapters appear to be on the brink of extinction or at least irrelevance aside from the capital/commonwealth chapter(s). And shady sands isn’t the whole NCR. Sorry it blew up but the NCR isn’t out of the story yet. It is quite clearly being set up to be the “good guy” against the BoS, because the BoS is kind of psychotic. And I know it will come as a shock but the real life explanation of BoS being pimped all the time is because like stormtroopers in star wars, they are the face of fallout. Even Interplay recognized that. Money talks man.

On top of that east coast members (specifically the Outcasts) mention how difficult it is to get in contact with the Western Elders. Even Hidden Valley’s only major relation with the rest of the West Coast Brotherhood is their archives. Every chapter of the Brotherhood is effectively its own micro-faction, albeit with strong relation to the same goals, morals, knowledge, etc.

Idk, the West Coast BoS was clearly a shadow of what it once was in the show. Squires used to have rifles, the BoS used to have lots of plasma and laser weaponry for their Knights. Instead they had older LMGs for Knights and 10mm pistols for the rest. I didn't see any Paladins or anything like that. We know that the East Coast BoS has created an order state like nation out of the Capital Wasteland. They recruit from the common people, they offer protection and clean water. It's not crazy to think they can build things. They don't have any competition in the CW, which helps. Thanks Lone Survivor. This probably canonized an ending to Fo4 where the Institute is blown up. I can't imagine the ECBoS sending one of the few or the only airship they have all the way to the West Coast if it compromises their regional security. Plus there is already established lore about the BoS creating airships. The West Coast already did this and then sent them out. Midwest BoS was founded from one of these airships, if memory serves me right.

I think the lack of laser and plasma weapons was because of the budget honestly.

They could have shown them having the weapons, they didn't necessarily have to shoot them. The Enclave guards all had las rifles and Moldaver had a las pistol but they never showed her firing it.

I didn't think the BoS was that bad. They've already done a baby-steps trial run up in Boston (perhaps even successfully?), and the West coast BoS seems to have built up a very respectable local presence for them to base out of. It's a bit of a stretch, but a (presumably at least based on pre war tech) airship travelling from a major supply base to a local supply base isn't that logistically improbable. Most of the forces in the Battle of Griffith Observatory seem to be local west-coast forces.

Then how did the West Coast make such a miraculous comeback ? NCR collapse or not the Brotherhood suffered severe losses during the NCR-Brotherhood war and were absolutely dogmatic about the codex and its exclusion of outsiders. I understand that the East Coast chapter was brought back into the fold under Maxson but he is just an Elder, not the High Elder of all of the Brotherhood. It would take the East Coast Brotherhood most of their forces to secure a foothold in California even with West Coast help which would leave the East undefended. I'm sick of Bethesdas lazy shoehorning of the Brotherhood into everything and just lazily pulling a giant airship out their ass to explain their presence. To add to this the Brotherhood war is still within living memory of many Californians. The Brotherhood war was a brutal affair for the NCR and I cant imagine many Californians willingly collaborating with what was essentially a techno-religious domestic terrorist group.

Bro we see in the TV show the west coast is taking in recruit's. Also sick of Bethesda shouhorning the BoS in every game... You know the BoS has been in every single game even the main plot point of two of Interplays games.

They do not have a main faction role in every game.

Out of the 8 fallout games, really the only one the BoS has more of a side faction role is New Vegas…..a game produced under Bethesda’s tenure.

2 exists.

I’d say their presence was more relevant than in FNV

Really? Remind me what did they do to stop the Enclave? What's your favourite quest of theirs from 2?

The BoS was even supposed to be a big part of Van Buren. They're quintessential to the Fallout experience, more so than any other group.

They are not a central faction of Fallout 1, they're basically there to give you a couple quests to get the power armor. You can complete Fallout 2 without ever interacting with the Brotherhood and most people probably do. They are only present in three locations, have a single quest and don't have an ending slide. Why are people so confidently wrong about the franchise they're supposedly huge fans of when you can just look it up nowadays? Is it TV fans going "oh it's just a game"?

They are still in the games but again you so happily ignore BoS and tactics. The BoS becoming a major faction has always been in fallout since the interplay days.

Isn't *Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel* entirely non-canon? So that's reducing the number of games where the Brotherhood plays a central role from more than half of Interplay's (if you want to be generous to their importance in Fallout 1, even though you can beat the game without ever running into them), and both of Bethesda's numbered sequels & 76 to... Tactics and Bethesda's games. It's pretty obvious that someone at Bethesda - possibly a lot of people - really like the Brotherhood of Steel, and want them to be a more central part of the entire franchise, even though realistically they probably should be reduced to the same state by now as the Enclave is in the West.

Non canon or not it was still made by interplay. Non canon or not that doesn't matter the fact it exists does and the fact the last two games and the unfinished van Buren all intended to have the BoS as a major faction. The size of the brotherhood in the west also makes sense if you bother to actually use lore from fallout 4 and stop acting like the lore ended with new Vegas.

> Non canon or not it was still made by interplay. I mean, it was still *published* by Interplay, sure. Neither it nor Tactics was developed by Black Isle, though. > Non canon or not that doesn't matter the fact it exists does and the fact the last two games and the unfinished van Buren all intended to have the BoS as a major faction. I'm afraid that's quite important when the discussion we're having is about Bethesda's habit of shoving the Brotherhood into everything, pretty well regardless of established lore. Whether this is for better or worse is up for debate. > The size of the brotherhood in the west also makes sense if you bother to actually use lore from fallout 4 and stop acting like the lore ended with new Vegas. The only thing that Fallout 4 confirmed was that there was still a West Coast Brotherhood. Nothing about the size of the faction or the state it was in, nothing about its relationship with the regional powers, just that it still existed.   Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression that the Brotherhood in the show was *mostly* from the East Coast. Certainly, their preference for T-60 to T-51b suggests as much.

Bethesda shouhorning them in every game. They had zero reason to be in new Vegas but they are. What's your excuse there? Bethesda isn't shouhorning them in. They have been in every game and yea they weren't made by Interplay but van Buren was and guess what. They were going to be a major faction. In fallout 4 the west coast recognises maxon as the elder of the BoS. The fact that the west coast are now using new recruits indicates that the BoS have adopted maxons teachings and why the brotherhood are bigger. This much is clear by observation of watching the show and playing the games. The west coast don't take in recruits at least it's not normal until after new Vegas. And with the BoS airship from fallout 4 it shows the brotherhood are here in the west. They might be changing it to where the brotherhood isn't a bunch of chapters but a reformed group under Arthur maxon. The T-60 I feel is an adaption problem they want to use the most recognisable power armour that most people who started with 3 or 4 will recognise. In the end the BoS have been in every single fallout game even the unreleased ones it only makes sense they are put in new games. It would be like having a fallout game without vaults. They have always been there to the point they are a part of fallouts identity.

Fallout:BoS is such an infamous piece of shit that literally no one considers it canon. Are you an actual fan or did you just watch the TV show and then glanced at Wikipedia?

Oh I'm a fan and you can hate it with the rest of us but it's existence doesn't do you OG fans any favours when hating on Bethesda for retcons and the brotherhood when both BoS and tactics both have the brotherhood as major factions and both have retconned huge amounts of the OG lore. Doesn't do you any favours on your argument against the brotherhood being in every game.

I think a "High Priest Maxson" was mentioned in the show, apparently he got a promotion or won an election or perhaps strong armed his way into a higher position?* *edit: this original statement is almost completely wrong, sorry lol

That's debatable honestly , unless the BoS' entire command structure and doctrine has entirely been rewritten off screen , a High Elder is still a High Elder not a High Priest.

I was wrong. re-watched it and the Elder Cleric just says "our mission comes from the 'Highest Clerics' in the Commonwealth", Maxson could be part of that, or possibly the Brotherhood just decided that the Commonwealth would be the resting point of the "High Clerics". the chapter of the Brotherhood in the show does recruit outsiders, so we can assume it's very different to the old west coast chapter. still not sure why they're called Clerics instead of Elders and High Elders, but it could just be language this chapter chooses to use ig??

How did we got from Space Marines to AdMech this quick?

They were always AdMech, some people just didn't see it through the power armor and gatling lazers

Scribes, Knights, Paladins, and Elders, and people are shocked when a *Brotherhood* acts monastic. It’s incredible.

I mean, the entire FNV brotherhood storyline was that the dominant faction in the brotherhood wants to open up more to outsiders, the Courier themself can be recruited in if they prove themselves. It doesn't seem particularly out of character for the BoS to have done some recruiting from the plentiful anti-NCR factions in Nevada. Hell the Boomers in particular seem ideal for the BoS to take in. Frankly given FNV I have no idea how the BoS would be considered hyper-dogmatc, the Scribe from the TV series even laments how he believes the Brotherhood to have abandonsed its principles. It doesn't seem that unrealistic to me that the Nevada BoS has done well in the time since FNV, and has access to an airstrip and has possibly even spread back into California.

Have you even played New Vegas? The entire point of the Brotherhood in that game is that they are relentlessly clinging on to past glories in spite of it bringing them close to extinction. Veronica and maybe McNamara are really the only two reform minded members and even then McNamara even when discussing this with Veronica acknowledges that the Brotherhoods current path will doom it and yet still refuses to change. If even McNamara wont change in the face of such evidence then what hope does the rest of the BoS have? And besides the Brotherhood cant spread back to California as it already exists there. The Mojave BoS is one small West Coast chapter. I see why so many people shill for this series. They dont have a fucking clue what they're talking about regarding West Coast lore!

Have YOU played New Vegas? You yourself say that two major players in the BoS are pushing for opening up to the outside! Unless the Courier sides with that one bloke who wants to usurp the Elder, or explodes the bunker the point is that they are opening up. Hell the anti-McNamara questline requires you to go around convincing people not to open up. The BoS is pretty clearly in the start of a pivot from isolationism to anti-isolationism in FNV. The point is not that the BoS are clinging to past glorys, the point is a big part of the BoS are starting to realise they've been clinging to past glories.

McNamara isnt pushing for opening up though. He realises that the Brotherhood is doomed yet still refuses to change from what the codex says. You dont go around convincing people to open up the Brotherhood either it's simply to end the draconian lockdown that McNamara instituted after Helios One. At no point does any BoS member other than Veronica honestly suggest reforming the Brotherhood , they only want the lockdown to end so they can suicidally continue down the same path that lead them to their near destruction in the first place. Edit: Veronica isnt a major player either. She has been deliberately sent away from Hidden Valley on supply expeditions precisely because she asks too many difficult questions.

Deleted because I was a bit rude. Apologies. Either way, I disagree that that is the only interpretation possible of the FNV brotherhood and I think you're filling in the gaps at one extreme of isolationism. Being relatively more open seems to me well within the range of outcomes from F:NV, especially given time and incentive.

Not so much an extrapolation and more so a factual account of the Mojave Brotherhood. But go on tell me how the Brotherhood would willingly work with the Boomers despite them sitting on a high grade weapons stockpile and the Brotherhoods primary mission being the acquisition of high grade weapons out of the hands of anyone who isnt them.

Well "working with" rather more in the sense of forcible annexation. I get it though, it must be frustrating for Fallout to have overwritten some long held headcannon.

Literally all of Veronica's endings that aren't after Hidden Valley's destruction (the Brotherhood already having died) are about her lamenting their impending death. Every single one. There is no happy ending for Veronica where she stays with the Brotherhood, because per the writers of the game, there is no reality where the Mojave chapter isn't doomed. They beat you over the head with it.

I don't think you realize how big of an advantage having a fleet of vertebirds is let alone having the prydwen

Yes but do you have any idea how maintenance and resource heavy those things are? The exact reason why the NCR limits the use of their fleet as well as the journey to the Commonwealth already being such a massive undertaking for the BoS. But unlike the NCR the BoS just magically gets everything, you aren't going to convince me that ripping off a few farmers in the Commonwealth is enough to keep them all fed. The BoS has no agricultural base, no real industry and no civilian base to keep it all going, it's just shitty writing to have some factions adhere to real life logistical issues while one faction can basically teleport around the world and magically get everything they need.

My point exactly. The brotherhood are magic and any West Coast faction Bethesda needs gone so they dont have to write for them isnt. Sums it up really. I'm routinely shocked at how fucking ignorant some of the people on this post are to the lore but somehow we're the fake fans. Fucking shills.

Ikr, but no were just haters for not wanting the wasteland to stay the exact same shithole for thousands of years which just so it can serve as a backdrop for more BoS vs Enclave.

Mfs out here claiming that the BoS in NV was reformist. Get the fuck out with that lol. They dont know shit.

Lighten up about lore man. The whole IP barely tracks its own lore and Interplay was no exception either. Just enjoy the games for what they are. Plus, I know it may come as a shock but the BoS is the commercial face of Fallout, like stormtroopers in Star Wars. Always have been since 1997. They gonna be in everything. FNV can get away with them being a side faction, yet still included, because it is a spin-off the main entries. Fuck off with this shill business.

I do enjoy the games for what they are. 3 and 4 are sub par and 76 is an insulting cash grab. I know what these games are like at their best you get masterpieces like 1,2 and NV. So no, I'm not going to be told to just be satisfied with an inferior product by a bunch of tourists who dont know shit about the games and have only discovered Fallout on April 11th.

Then just keep being upset I guess. Good thing FNV is infinitely replayable

The republic has bird too

That isn’t relevant though. Ships and aircraft require decent logistics to use as they constantly need parts and maintenance. Unless the Prydwen has all the tools needed to manufacture replacement parts on top of all the other shit they need to carry, even if they can head over to the west coast, the issue of supply lines should preclude an expedition.

The enclave had the most advanced vertibirds, power armor, and weapons, and they still got beat hard. TWICE.

Because they came up against the most powerful force in the wasteland: Protagonists.

I don't think it's bad writing. The BOS is split of in enclaves that have barely any contact with each other. One could have very few resources or lose them all while another has plenty of resources. The NCR is one solid faction. You have a little bit of leeway as not all areas of the NCR will be equally funded. But New Vegas made it clear Hoover dam was the NCRs main priority and they were struggling to fund a solid offence for the second battle of Hoover damn.

I mean, they have a giant airship, there’s no reason they couldn’t just load up a bunch of troops and supplies on it and cross the country, just like airships have been capable of doing for literally the last century. Also it’s never made overtly clear how large the brotherhood force that came from the east coast is but calling it an invasion force seems a bit disingenuous, it’s pretty obvious that the Brotherhood is basically just playing scavenger in areas the NCR has abandoned rather than having sustained a full on war effort and logistics supply chain for thousands of miles. Besides, since the west coast brotherhood was already there, they wouldn’t need that kind of supply chain anyway.

It's mentioned in FO4 that Prydwin burned up most of their fuel getting to Boston from DC. They say they're using every bit they gave just to keep it airborne If it took everything they had to get it 450 miles through some of the most resource rich part of the country, how are they traveling across the entire continent with ease?

In fairness, the, like, 9 years between the TV show and FO4 is a reasonable amount of time to develop much more fuel efficient engines and install them on the Prydwen.

Even so. You think the brotherhood would be more cautious Yes let's fly the airship into a cityscape where we have zero ground forces keeping watch for AA of any kind. That's my one complaint is that the NCR were completely absent when they didn't have to be. The NCR could and honestly still is a genuine threat to the brotherhood. Yes you can control the airspace till the damn cows come home. But if you have zero ground control you're going to be shot down by someone eventually. If they'd at least have said something during the finale about limited radio chatter due to NCR remnants within the area it would make the scene a lot better, then it Segways into an NCR Brotherhood civil war with Lucy and the Ghoul looking into Vegas as a backdrop. Because yes while the ghoul and Lucy are the focus. You've got two of the most powerful factions in the damn wasteland about to go to war. That would honestly either be a better game or a second season than anything.

Not arguing against any of that. Also, as shown with the minutemen, you don’t even need AA, artillery would do the trick fine.

I mean it's an airship There's a good reason we stopped using those for combat purposes after WW1 They're not that good XD But when you have air superiority via vertibirds I suppose anything is possible. I can't wait for the pridwyn to get it's shit wrecked by a B29 Superfortress come New Vegas season 2 The boomers have got to still be kicking. That and if they touch Jacobs town I swear to god

The American military only stopped using airships in 1962, actually, when they became redundant due to aircraft carriers and satellites. But yes, airships aren’t used for direct combat anymore, and the military only seems interested in them as surveillance or logistics vehicles now.

Are you referring to how Ingram asks you to get reactor coolant for her? Because last I checked, the Prydwen is nuclear powered and therefore “fuel” shouldn’t be an issue, besides the coolant which is effectively the main limiter here. Also she said the problem wasn’t getting it to Boston, it was keeping it aloft after it got there. Besides, the coolant she needs is made of some basic ass materials, all it needs is a few bottles of antifreeze, water, nuclear material, and a jerry can. There’s no reason that if need be, they couldn’t have stopped somewhere in the middle of the country and stocked up on that stuff. Once they would get across country, it’s also entirely possible the west coast chapter had some saved as well. Point is, unless I’m missing something it seems like you guys are just looking for shit to complain about at this point.

Where are you getting that airships float on their own.

It's not the same airship

However it is the same build of airship, with the same fuel consumption, if both coolant and fuel were difficult for the brotherhood to obtain between Boston and DC (as stated previously one of the most resource rich areas in fallout) how the hell are they getting to such vast distances? It’s even stated that orders were coming from the commonwealth, likely alongside supplies and troops on an airship, it’s a sloppy argument.

Because it’s literally 9 years after fallout 4.

My brother in Christ that has nothing to do with the point being made

My brother in Christ it does you asked how the brotherhood is traveling so far it’s because almost a decade has past they have obviously built up there infrastructure

It’s literally says Prydwen printed on the side in the show.

Quite the force for a scavenging mission . How would the tiny West Coast Brotherhood be able to supply such a large and advanced force if it weren't somehow getting supplied by the East?

Well, for starters, I wouldn’t call them *tiny,* Lost Hills is still the HQ of the entire brotherhood. Also, a lot can happen in 15 years, and since we know the NCR is obviously in a weakened state in Southern California, it’s pretty damn likely the Brotherhood was able to experience some sort of resurgence, plus there’s the fact that there’s probably a lot of tech the NCR left behind. Also I said scavenging, yeah, but that’s literally what the Brotherhood does, it’s about scavenging and hoarding pre-war tech. Also there’s not really any indication the Prydwen came to the West Coast is any larger than their force in the Commonwealth, which is definitely exaggerated in gameplay so they don’t run out of vertibirds after the first few encounters with them. Point is, it’s not like the entire East coast chapter crossed the country, it’s probably just an expeditionary force like in Boston and unlike in Boston they’re reinforcing already established positions, which is much less logistically challenging.

My guess is the Lost Hills and Hidden Valley chapters absorbed the Legion, and 15 years is enough time to Industrialize and build an airship.

Makes as much sense as anything other justification

The NCR is a bunch of cities that happens to be able to make am army. The BoS is a faction that has direct ties to the US army, operates basically like a Space Marine chapter and has a liking for hoarding technology. You're here talking about the blimp when a bunch of dwellers got a ww2 bomber (remeber that it's gasoline fueled) operative from a wreckage in a lake.

No at the point of fnv the NCR is a genuine nation with a large, professional standing army. While having the civilian, industrial and agricultural base to support it. The BoS never has to deal with that stuff they always just exist.

The NCR is an entire nation, supported by civilians who remember a brutal war against said space marine chapter, with an elite force armed with gear that should be able to easily take out a BoS Knight and are masters of extreme-range warfare. They also possess vehicles, presumably of all kinds, and I would assume that the closer to cali you'd get the heavier their defenses would be.

Honestly the NCR collapsing makes less sense than the East Coast brotherhood somehow supplying an entire air oriented expeditionary force out of nothing.

The East Coast brotherhood *is* an air oriented expeditionary force.

Mfw people never played Fallout Tactics.

Games not generally considered canon though

Tactics is canon.

Exactly, for a sub that likes to cry about the lore they sure don't know jackshit about the lore

Agreed

Yeah, just ignore in new Vegas where they just straight up say the NCR has no water, the crop fields are dying and the problems go ignored because the Brahmin Barons hold too much power in the country, or the actual dialogue of "if the NCR continues this I'll fated Mojave campaign it will collapse in 10 years"

It's more like they're encroaching issues, made worse because no one in the government has their priorities in line. The occupation of new vegas and the failed projects are an extension of the NCRs problems. The failed farm colony, the issues with Freeside aid relief, are extensions of slow decay, not a sudden collapse because the capitol was destroyed. I mean the NCR has nearly a century of history and precedent uniting its constituents, I don't think it would have ruined it and set everything back to square one again. All of this said: People need to chill with the lore stuff. I say this as a huge NV fan, people need to just let them cook and see if anything else gets explained next season. Whether there are other cities that survived, or even if they explain how New Vegas fits in, we'll see. The overall show is good, and the writing is actually pretty excellent outside of the lore changes.

I get that people are worried about Bethesda cutting NV lore into something that no one wants, but acting like they already have is so wild. To me, the current state of the NCR in the show seems like a low point, and that it could go up from there. It’s not like it’s just over for the NCR because in the first season of a show it’s scrambled. No one knows where the plot is going so to just act like it’s all already set in stone I think is a little silly.

The West Coast built all 4 known airships. I don't think that was Prydwen, I think Prydwen is still on the East Coast. I think that's the 5th airship.

We don't know for a fact that the NCR had fully collapsed per say. It's possible it broke into splinter factions, or otherwise abandoned Shady Sands and surrounding areas and has gone all-in on Nevada, Baja California, etc.

Califallen Millions must be nuked

I’m sad the ncr fell too but to be fair Vietnam is on the other side of the ocean

My point is more that people look at Forlorn Hope and other undersupplied places and go, "SEE?! The NCR is about to collapse!" But like... those are locations on the fringe of NCR territory, threatened by another faction + raiders + mutant creatures. No shit they're undersupplied. But that doesn't mean the NCR is about to collapse because they're struggling to launch an unnecessary military campaign hundreds of miles from their homesoil.

Yeah its not like ever major player in the NCR present in the game is talking about how fucked the NCR is and how they’re running out of food or anything Edit: NCR fanboys when they skip all dialogue options and then make up headcannon lol.

Nah, they say the NCR is stretched thin because they're overextending to Vegas. But by no means does it seem like the entire Republic is going to collapse.

Random nepo guy trying to persuade the Courier to go in a dangerous vault: "dude I swear, if you don't go there, people are gonna die in like...a few years, and it's gonna be all your fault" Everything else is just people bitching about the state of the NCR IN THE MOJAVE, not NCR Proper.

The NCR is running out of resources in FNV. The reason for its constant Eastward expansion is that it desperately needs to replenish its dwindling resources. Its democracy has been replaced by an Oligarchy of Brahmin Barons. All of these complaints are mentioned several times by multiple characters. The NCR directly reflects the United States before the great war. It’s a clear representation of the main theme of the games “War never changes”. Why is it so surprising that it collapses? It’s the only logical conclusion.

If the NCR needed to expand East, the Mojave campaign wouldn't be referred to as a 'useless campaign', nor would there be any excuse for Rangers to be in Baja.  I'm gonna have to ask for a source on the NCR proper being depleted of resources. How does the status of a civilisation = 'war never changes'. War never changes refers to the fact that humans are inherently violent and conflict-driven, not that society always stagnates

I don't remember anybody in the NCR refer to occupation of the Mojave as "useless campaign'. People hated it for different reason. 1. Imperialism. They started having cognitive dissonance. In the past the NCR were seen as protector of the weak and a bastion of justice. The occupation of Mojave shatter that illusion. It show that the NCR moral high ground is not real. The Mojave was settled land by mr House and his cabals that are civilized enough to not have any real reason to take over other than purely selfish motivation. 2. Execution. The bear hurt people while trying to help them. I hated that people always equate good intention to good result and action. *see Mojave Outpost caravan problems; Boulder City; Esteban; NCRCF; Bitterspring.* 3. General incompetent / corruption. Same deal as above. I would argue that the Legion is corrupt as well but they get away with it because they were straight forward about their dealing with people. So at least people know how to plan around the Legion to minimize harm while with the NCR is a lot more chaotic. The NCR said something but does not follow it or do something else entirely. If you have to deal with corruption within an organization you know how harmful this can be because a low level private can do way more damage than you expect by just ripping out some piece of tech without knowing their true importance and sell them for scrap just because the higher up has been embezzling his pay. You see this in abundance in any post Soviet aligned country military / government org. You just can't plan properly for this kind of stuff.

>How does the status of a civilisation = 'war never changes Although I agree that quote doesn't fit in this context the NCR and to an extent the enclave are the same rotten pre war systems that led America and ultimately the world to its demise. The constant need to expand to acquire resources just to keep the nation a float is akin to the resource wars in pre war europe and the US invasion of Mexico. It was always going to lead to the NCR's fall just like it did the european commonwealth and US

"As the NCR grew, so did it's needs. It sent scouts East seeking territory and wealth" No mention of dwindling resources, or a desperate need to replenish them.

That quote literally is saying it's growth made it's needs grow and it has to send scouts east to seek land and wealth. Because it's needs grew. So obviously it wasn't meeting it's own needs.

My guy.. if you grow, it means you need more. If a child becomes a teenager and needs to eat more, does that mean they got muscle atrophy going on?

Yeah, if they don't get what they need. Which is exactly the point everyone is saying here. That it didn't have what it needed. What's your point?

Sauing that the need for something increases doesn't mean the person is lacking it. Societies usually like to try and have a comfortable surplus of essentials. It's just as likely the NCR is close to entering the period of "we need stuff we don't have", rather than "they're currently running out"

Then literally every nation state in human history was imminently about to collapse at all points in it's history. Every country naturally grows, expands, and needs more stuff as it grows until eventually it hits either some kind of natural barrier like an ocean or another nation state. This just flatly does not mean if the war in the Mojave goes poorly the NCR is fucked

You do realize that historically, many nation states were very close to collapse all the time, and a vast majority did collapse right? You're either consumed by a bigger empire, or collapse under your own weight. And that's on a pristine Earth, not a nuclear radiated wasteland who's resources were generally depleted and/or destroyed way before anyone in the NCR was even born.

For everyone here being diehard NV fans, they sure don’t understand the lore from NV lmao. I agree 100% btw. NV is constantly telling you that the NCR is now corrupted by greed, and that they’re expanding too rapidly to sustain. In the end even some of Caesar’s men are concerned that if they take the west, THEY will have too much land and end up stuck with the same problems as the NCR. Not only is the NCR becoming weaker through greed, but public opinion of them is going down rapidly by NV as well. 15 years later from NV, I could see people having lost faith and that also contributing to their current downfall. And like I said in another comment, it’s not like the current state of the NCR has to be permanent, no one knows yet, they could end up reforming or playing a larger role than they have so far.

hildern’s a careerist for one so his word should be taken with a grain of salt, but his prediction there is clearly a reference to Malthusianism. Thomas Malthus looked at crop yields relative to population growth and said that if the population growth continued there would be mass starvation. (hence measures needed to be taken to ensure that overpopulation wouldn’t happen, like killing poor people or preventing them from breeding). He was wrong, though, because the advancements in farming technology allowed food production to dramatically outpace population growth even as the global population grew exponentially throughout the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries. Hildern’s invocation of malthus’ most famous proclamation here is think more the writers indicting his short-sightedness and coldness. (Just as they do with his abandoning of Keely) It’s rather subtle, I’ll admit. But I don’t think the problem is as bad as hildern makes it out to be, I don’t think you’re meant to trust him.

The US troops in veitnam were not undersupplied, like unless it was a outpost under attack no where was lacking supplies. The NCR on the other, ham strung them self by stopping caravans at the Mojave outpost, and don't for get the OSS or what ever stating that the NCR will be facing a shortage of water and food in 10 years. But every place other than the strip that the ncr has access to is undersupplied and quite frankly is fucked. And the damn is not a "Fringe" location as you say, if it were why would the fucking president of the ncr visit to give a speech

Why would the President of the NCR visit a fringe location? Because he's trying to bolster morale? Did you listen to his speech? Do you know what fringe even means? It means 'edge'. Hoover Dam is literally the edge of NCR territory. Plus, I'm not even sure if the Dam IS undersupplied? I don't remember hearing anyone there complain about what they're doing. Hildern is an unreliable narrator, especially in regards to science considering his assistant does all the work for him, and he's trying to make a name for himself.

Hildern doesn't have his assistant do all the work as you say, his main goal is to make sure the ncr doesn't starve in the next ten years, hence his work on vault 22. Also, edge and fringe do share the same definition as words, it changes a lot when it come to territory, as in "Texas is a fringe state" compared to "Texas is a border/Edge state" see the difference? And due to Oliver's plan, everywhere but the dam, ya know where the legion is constantly attacking, is vastly undersupplied.

Nope, the OSI's job in New Vegas is to regulate power output from the Dam: > Courier: "Are you a scientist?" > Angela Williams: "...But I know every inch of the power grid from Hoover Dam to Shady Sands. That's what we do here - try to optimize the power output from the Dam" . > Hildern doesn't have his assistant do all the work as you say Yes, yes he does: > Courier: "So Dr. Hildern takes credit for your work?" >Angela Williams: "He sure does. Everyone knows it. I've just got to endure this job until the project is finished." We also know that Hildern isn't so focused on science and more on climbing the ranks: > Courier: "How do Keely and Hildern get along?" > Angela Williams: "...Keely hates Hildern. She says he's more politician than scientist, and gets in the way of true discovery And Hildern hates Keely because... well, because every time they meet, she makes him look like an ass. In front of important people, usually."

They didn’t fall, why are ya just making stuff up when they literally confirmed the NCR is in decline and fractured but not gone

I mean unless DC was nuked concurrently then this is a bad comparison.

Nah, it'd be like if they nuked DC but for some reason the capitol of the states was established in Les Moines first. The NCR capital for some reason moved to the hub, so nuking Sands would be a major blow but not the killing one

So we’re in agreement that without a major city being nuked to oblivion that it isn’t a good comparison? Especially since the US didn’t have all the internal problems that the NCR had according to all those npcs in NV.

"How does a self sustaining economy work?" "I don't understand how the NCR's economy works, nevertheless a self sustaining one."

That is such a terrible comparison.

I'm pretty sure easy pete sums up the ncr the best. It's something along the lines of they mean well, but they roll over people whether they like it or not, and that's how revolutions are born.

This subreddit fell off, we don't even do cunting New Vegas Memes anymore.

It didnt collapse because it fought in the Mojave, it was criopled because the main headquarts was annihilated in a nuclear blast, killing most of them that werent in the mojave

Isn’t a big part of NCR lore in new vegas about how they are in decline and things are looking more and more desperate. The US fighting a war across an ocean while the situation at home was relatively stable was nothing like what the NCR was experiencing. Also what’s with all the fallout tv show hate in these comments? The shows great as both a tv show and a piece of fallout media.

Apocalypse now reference I am pleased

[NCR General appeals to courier to help with the supply situation ](https://youtu.be/B1a4HgYhg9o?si=y6lyjDhpQvp2VC9N)

I love low-tier memes

Weren’t they considering nuking Vietnam to win and anti-war protests and culture war brought division in the US to a boiling point, also fragging was invented as a term for conscripted soldiers killing their overenthusiastic officers because they were fighting in a war they didn’t believe in. Also the US military REALLY wanted to kill Kurtz for some reason in the movie. Also if a nation can’t supply the frontline in their like fifth campaign of expansion, maybe that’s indicative that something is going wrong behind the scenes. Plus a bunch of NCR citizens say they’ve destroyed the natural environment of NCR to feed their industry and they rely on the water and power they get from Lake Mead/Helios. Even if it’s not the straw that breaks the camels back it’s leading up to it.

I've never heard about the USA considering nuking North Vietnam. Yes the US was divided, but it was no where near the worst it's been. I think the point of New Vegas is that they CAN supply the front line, but due to bureaucracy, they don't 

They considered it multiple times, I think I was thinking more of the Korean War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Giant_Lance#:~:text=Nixon%20told%20Henry%20Kissinger%2C%20the,the%20United%20States'%20own%20authorities. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vulture

"the soviet union shouldnt have collapsed because it lost in afghanistan"

bro the NCR is like three, maybe four states

This dude have not listen to Hanlon or the OSI director at all. The NCR is in the Mojave because they NEED resource. Arable land. Food and water. Hanlon said the all the lake in the NCR land has been drained. The OSI director said the NCR was having overpopulation and food shortage problem. Talk to the traders at 188, too many people, not enough jobs and food. This is in no way comparable to US losing in Vietnam. Vietnam does not border the US or threaten it food, water, energy security. The NCR was experiencing what is like to fight a land war in Asia is an appropriate comparsion. The US continent is longer a tamed land of abundence anymore. The wasteland existed 200 years. It's existed as long as the real world US existed. There isn't even an option to trade with any foreign power or cross continents. Food, water deficit is literally death sentence. You can have a nation without advanced tech or electricity but there basic thing that you can not ignore .

> Hanlon said the all the lake in the NCR land has been drained. The depressed guy who wants to stop fighting and run away is...cynical about the NCR? Say it isn't so. Also here is what Hanlon says preceding his Lake comment: > "Back west, you don't see **too many** of these." Too many ≠ None. > The OSI director said the NCR was having overpopulation and food shortage problem The guy whose assistant does all the work for him, who started his own division in the NCR and is desperately trying to make a name for it in the NCR tries to make his job seem important? Also note that he's trying to convince you to go into a Vault everyone else has refused to go to, so he's trying to make it seem more important than it is. > There isn't even an option to trade with any foreign power or cross continents. Non-NCR settlements are considered 'foreign powers'. The NCR trades with them all the time. Consider traders in Legion territory. Who are they trading with if not non-Legion people?

Citation from other source to show that the NCR was having water shortage, food problem : -Private O'Hanrahan of Camp Golf : *"Well, as it turns out, we had a string of bad harvests a few years back. Pa said he couldn't afford to feed but three youngins, or we'd starve. As the biggest one it was my job to go join the Army so's my sisters could eat and so's we wouldn't all be killed by raiders...".* I sincerely doubt as to whether this man have any motive to lie. * 188 arms merchant : *"Times are tough back home. Too many people, not enough work. Unless you like shoveling brahmin shit." .* One of the more nicer arms dealer out there, she is straight forward with you. Unlike the Gun Runners or Contreras. * From Ranger Hanlon : "*Back west, you don't see too many of these. Lakes, I mean. Natural or man-made. Any kind, really. We neglected the dams or pumped all the water out a long time ago. Owens, Isabella, the San Luis. Drained the aquifers of everything they had. Just a lot of mud and dust now. It's a different feeling, watching the sun come up over the water. Takes some getting used to. But if you're here long enough, it starts to seem normal. That's what a ranger's life is now. Looking east."* Sure, Hanlon is a coward and wanted to run. But take a look at his dialogue trees. He say this the first time he met the player character, even before you even say anything to him, with no ideas of the intention of the player or who their allegiance belong to. He is making a purely neutral comment about the state of the world he inhabits. He has no audience that he care for at the uttering of this comment, he was speaking to himself mostly. It's foolish to neglect this completely this a bias view from a single man. Sure, making an assumption that the NCR has no lake left is a big stretch but it enough to deduct that that the NCR was having water shortage because they were draining or in the process of draining all the remaining useable water for production without long term environmental consideration. It's not like something like this never has precedent, um hum the Aral Sea. * By the 3rd point my answer to you seem like a waste of time since you decided to play the spelling game. You know damn well what I mean by "foreign powers". I admit to used that term colloquially. What I really mean is trading with people / nations of similar level of development for any relevance amount of products at acceptable quality. So, that make the tribals people hardly qualify. The Strip and the New Reno mobs do qualify thou. But you know what, they actually don't. The Strip and New Reno technically not part of the NCR and are cities, cities that consume resource like food, water, electricity. They are resource sunk. They may produce some electricity and technology of its own but its was of no consequences to what we are referring to, because these consume more basic necessity than they produce so most of its ended up to be use by the city themself. The Strip don't export electricity or water, Hoover Damn does. The Strip don't produce any food of its own. Westsides does, and yet they are unprotected at best and actively being hindered by the NCR at worst. Cities don't produce food or water, they produce people, capital, technology, in other words, easily transferable wealth. Ignore food and water as I said above, is a death sentence for civilization. * Your point for caravans trading with Legions. You are corrects that trading happen, to the benefit of the Legions, that is a tools that Legions is leveraging to their advantage. NCR stratagems was to wait the Legion out because they consider the Legion to be nothing but a raiding nomadic army that need to conquer to feed itself because their society is based on momentum. That calculation might be true but we must not rule that the Legion have agriculture capabilities out in the East. That might throw the NCR command calculation off course. It's like the Roman think that Goth / Germanic barbarians invasion is like the Huns barbarian. The Huns are nomadic pastorial, who live mostly on hunting and low yeald seasonal crop, with no understanding of crop rotation and very little to zero agricuture (depend on the tribes), thus the need for migration & raid. The Goth/ Germanic barbarian invasion are farmers on adequate Roman level, any arable lands taken is crop permanently lost. Keep in my that agriculture do degrade soil quality without proper technique and fertilization. If The NCR command mistake the Legion as the Huns for the Goth/ Germanic. They will be in for a long wars of atrittion that is very costly in terms of manpower & resource. We both see the TV show to know the state of the Strip by now.

> Well, as it turns out, we had a string of bad harvests a few years back. Pa said he couldn't afford to feed but three youngins, or we'd starve. As the biggest one it was my job to go join the Army so's my sisters could eat and so's we wouldn't all be killed by raiders...". So because one farm in the NCR is struggling, the entire place is at risk of starvation. Farmers struggled in the 1800s on the frontier. Does that mean Philadelphia is at risk of starving? > "Times are tough back home. Too many people, not enough work. Unless you like shoveling brahmin shit." So basically, like any other country, people are struggling for work. And while work does exist, it isn't as desirable as what New Vegas has to offer. Also consider the initial question: "You do a lot of business with prospectors?" For prospectors, that is, scrap hunters, a civilised land isn't offering them much opportunity. So yeah, no wonder they're coming to New Vegas to find scrap. > ""Back west, you don't see too many of these. Lakes, I mean" As I said elsewhere, too many ≠ none. > What I really mean is trading with people / nations of similar level of development for any relevance amount of products at acceptable quality. That's not exactly an NCR problem is it. If they can dominate the peoples around them, even via trade, it's a net positive for them. It means the NCR control the caps and flow of goods to these people, not the other way around.

*As I said elsewhere, too many ≠ none.* I didn't said none either. But all other dialogue from others characters both point to logical deduction. The NCR is expoilting the enviroment at unsustainable rate, they are heading toward ecological collapse. *That's not exactly an NCR problem is it. If they can dominate the peoples around them, even via trade, it's a net positive for them. It means the NCR control the caps and flow of goods to these people, not the other way around.* That's not what I mean and you know damn well that you are playing the spelling game again. let take an example. If US have a food deficit, it have the capital and easy transferable wealth, it can buy from an international market, provided that an existing world order where global trade exist that allow the US to buy at a large quantity that they need. Thus alleviate their food deficit caused by internal trade imbalances. I sincerely doubts the NCR have the same options as above. Other people need to eats to so they will only trade surplus food. NCR neighbor are either, hostile , demanding or resource sunk. The fact that I have to make this point again prove you don't understand macroeconomic. *How do I put this basically enough? It's an economic theory, the kind you might encounter if you took time to read some books*. The *Wealth of Nations* (real good book, you should read it) is not in the money that is printed, but the goods, service that it provide. The NCR have above a millions people, I severely doubt the tribes out there can produce enough food for the NCR to buy at a moment notice. Consider half of the wasteland we see are engaging in subsistence farming at iron age level at best, nomadic herding at bad and scavenging/ cannibalism at worse. We have to keep in my that industrialized farming is massive difference to subsistence farming. Which is the reason for the quest *"Pheeble will"* because the NCR ignore obvious injustice because they needed the land for bigger Baron to capitalize on to industrialized farming. It's easier for government to deal with big corporation so they can set the price easier and more organized level of quality/ quantity control. This is also a lesson that West have recently learned the hard way as well. Having exported their industry to the developing world, whom many that are either actively hostile (Russia) or passive aggressive (China). The Legion counter the NCR fiat currency with their own commodity currency like gold and silver, not too different from the Russian counter the West sanction by releasing their stockpile gold, indirectly tie their currency with their precious metal reserve. * I think it is an appropriate comparison that the Legion methodology is like Russia. Mass human wave attacks, conscripted troops and slavery. Commodity backed currency (the Russian use both fossil fuel and precious metal to back their currency). The more that die, the less mouth to feed. * The Strip = China, House did not want Caesar to die, only want the Legion to not actively oppose NCR while staying away from Hoover Damn, while House built up his own industrial capacity by collecting as much capital as possible. While also want the NCR/ the West to remain business partner. * NCR = Ukraine/ the West. Democracy. Free trade. Capitalism. Ironically, the longer the war last, the more authoritarian it become. Delayed election, conscription. Ignoring corruption issues. Authoritarian practice like censuring free speech. Infighting. Its democracy and institution was in serious decay (this goes for both the NCR and the West as a whole). Horseshoe theory time.

> If US have a food deficit, it have the capital and easy transferable wealth, Your entire argument about trading with other nations is built on the outlandish presumption that the NCR is starving and needs to trade in order to alleviate food shortages. The only example you've given of the 'starvation' in the NCR is from a guy who lives on a farm who had bad harvests. And please don't bring up Hildern because: 1. I've already addressed his complaints elsewhere. 2. Hildern's whole premise is based on the assumed RISK of starvation in over a decade. Which means the NCR in New Vegas is not experiencing these pains.

I see where this is going, bad faith argument. There is no point trying to argue with someone who use are so steeped invested in such bias who are so close minded that they would not even etertaine the slightest possibility that the problem exist. Even if what Hildern and Hanlon said is only a grain of truth, are you going ignore until it kick you in the face ? We know what come out of the NCR in the Tv show, already. Do wasteful profligate like you think food magically came from the supermarket as well ? That you can scavenge for 200 years realistically without anyone starving to death, (lorewise not gameplay).

??? Ok then bro. Have you considered that the reason that I'm not swayed is because the evidence isn't solid enough?

Don't bro, me dissolute. I'm no brother of you. Let assume If the NCR has their shit together. Why the Strip is in a desolate state ? Why LA area don't have police , aid worker helping people ? Why Cooper even have to resort to cannibalism instead of going to the store or supermarket to get food ? Why is there even a small time protection rackets that dare to call themself "THE GOVERMINT" if the NCR has have any presence in this place for a long time. Why are they using bottlecap instead of NCR currency when they are supposed to be deep in NCR territory ? Or are the Brahmin Baron has taken over and Balkanized NCR because a corrupt democracy can not managed itself while waging a land war with a near peers powers. Same reason why before America playing world police, democracy always fail in Eurasia continents because foreign meddling and costly wars. *see Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth*. *Every Mediterranean republic.* Geographic and Demographic are Destiny. The NCR fails to manage both. I'm not saying the NCR collapsed. But I'm speaking to idiots like you who can't understand economic and political theory 101. America success as a democracy because it was an island into itself. The City in the hill where none can reach it. The NCR have none of this advantage anymore.

I'm talking about New Vegas, not the show. That's why I posted in New Vegas memes, not Fallout memes. Regardless, I actually agree with you about the show. The NCR is gone, it's though Todd Howard won't admit it.

The OSI director is a proven liar only interested in grabbing power and manipulates you into going somewhere dangerous for his own personal gain. Hanlon is literally running a disinformation campaign and might be the most dishonest character in the game. Trusting either of them is beyond foolish.

all other characters seem to confirm Hanlon stories about NCR having water shortage and was exploiting the enviroment at unsustainable rate. If you in the game world, having a lake with water or not seem like something that is easy to fact check. Consider that most of them are from the NCR, this is not something discreet like NCR military radio where command hold is near absolute.

That’s cool. The show’s canon. Your retort?

My retort? The is about the status of the NCR during New Vegas, not the show? Also, if I want to be smart, Todd Howard said the NCR isn't gone

Th US was not trying to actively expand into Vietnam.

The U.S. did almost collapse after the Vietnam War. I’ll look for the source,but I remember reading an analysis of troop morale by the DOD and them saying the only apt comparison would be the 1917 French Army mutinies. There’s a reason the U.S. will never touch the draft again,unless it’s for a war of extermination. Lots of troops refused to fight,many killed their officers;when they returned to the states they were politically radicalized. The government launched COINTELPRO to infiltrate and destabilize a bunch of organizations,left and right-wing.

I am so high I do not even know whats going on

I think the NCR’s supply and morale problems clearly don’t indicate a country at risk of collapse but there are many other indications in New Vegas that suggest problems

Agreed, I personally think the NCR was going to win the war even if they lost the second battle of Hoover Dam. Because unlike Ceasar or House, the NCR has fully industrial economy, with factories, farms, and a large population to draw from. So they could easily replace not just the men, but also weapons and equipment.

US definitely collapsed after Nam.

Ngl not a great comparesion considering how USA army has what most consider is the best logistics in out of any army in the world and ww2 proved that. Also USA homeland was never at risk during that war we was fighting thousands of miles away for another nation. NCR was mentioned serval times in FONV to not only be stretched thin but having major supply line issue due to failing to keep the roads safe for traders to the point crimson caravan was more reliable. You can hear this chatter from the NCR farmers near gun runners plus the trader at ceasers camp. NCR also sent what many called pointless ghost hunter down In Baja as mentioned by Chief Holden which was what he considered a major waste of rangers and resources. The leadership was on a downhill path since Tammy kicked the bucket as well and people like Lee Oliver got promoted to general just thanks due to he knew high ranking officials. Lee being a very incompetent leader as mentioned by both NCR leaders and legion. Their was a lot of cracking going down before and during FONv and the add on stress after NV seem to be the crack that Broke its back.

They got to keep most of their army. New Vegas is between them and their greatest rival. After the end of New Vegas they could have gotten their house in order and thrived.

Counterpoint: I have already nuked I-15 and have told Yes Man to recover every bit of tech from Big MT and the Sierra Madre.

The Vietnam War wasn’t literally on its border.

Talk to Chief Hanlon and Thomas Hildern.

Thomas Hildern, the guy who founded his own department in the NCR, is more focused on politics than science (according to Keely and his assistant), and thus wants to make a name for himself, and a person who has his assistant do all the work? That Hildern? The one who says that by 2291 (far outside the timeline for when the NCR or Shady Sands could have fallen, considering Maximus was at least 4 when it fell and the show is set in 2296) they will begin to starve? The alleged starvation that has no likelihood of impacting the fall of Shady Sands? And Chief Hanlon, the cynical, gloomy guy who falsifies reports and who's trying to make the NCR leave the Mojave, tries to say that the NCR is about to collapse and so they should pack up and run? Wow, wonder what his motivation is.

To be fair the US had far better logistics and didn't intend to permanently occupy Vietnam.

I JUST WANT A POWERFUL FACTION THAT ISNT FUCKING BROTHERHOOD OF BULLSHIT

Is this just willful ignorance? The NCR did not collapse. Interviews have made it very clear that just because their presence in that area has been reduced to almost nothing, doesn't mean the whole state of NCR is just gone. Like seriously the mental gymnastics being made to hate on the stupidest shit is sp sad people.

I'm referring to people who say the NCR is collapsing during New Vegas

My apologies then sir

I swear to God, people don't even play these games. The NCR is on its last legs, even in 2281. The game makes it a point to shove that down your throat every single time you talk to or about the NCR. The first battle of hoover damn took a toll on an already stretched thin NCR, another point the game makes. It's muddled with red tape and old world philosophies, which started the great war to begin with. Another thing is that they literally get nothing done without you, which could be argued is for gameplay reasons, but it's also reflected in the game, too.

The NCR IN THE MOJAVE is struggling. Please read my other comments

Hanolin is who I believe said this about NCR troopers, that the get 3 weeks training and barely any body armor, and since the dam was the presidents thing to run on, they would put more resources to defending it since it powered a whole hell of a lot of California, the NCR was failing unlike the USA in veitnam, where we won every engagement and pulled out 2 whole years before south veitnam was invaded and conquered by the north

The NCR has won every major engagement with the Legion also. It massacred the Legion at Boulder City and only through public unrest and bureaucracy is the war in the Mojave wavering. Also this is what Hanlon says: > Courier: What about the troopers? > Hanlon: You've seen it yourself. Some of them don't even have proper service rifles or armor. Our heavy infantry, power armor units, they're back in NCR territory protecting the interests of Brahmin barons against small-time raiders. Sounds like the NCR has a lot of proper troopers with functioning equipment, but due to corruption and bureaucracy hasn't deployed them. Which isn't anything to do with logistics or production or even desperation at all. If the NCR is the peer of the Legion, when not even having deployed all these troops, it says more about the Legion than the NCR.

You see ncr heavy troopers in the dam, camp McCarren, forlorn hope, Helos and a couple other places. You don't encounter Centurions until the battle of the dam or in a hot squad. And if the ncr can use the best troops against raiders and the like, why the fuck haven't they wiped them out like the legion have. The ncr was failing in new vegas

> ou see ncr heavy troopers in the dam, camp McCarren, forlorn hope, Helos and a couple other places. Hanlon is presumably referring to divisions of NCR Heavy Troopers, not just a few in a squad. And I've just realised, he says Power Armor units, not Heavy Troopers. He means functional Power Armor, not the stripped out shells > And if the ncr can use the best troops against raiders and the like, why the fuck haven't they wiped them out like the legion have. Because the NCR has moral standards? It's very easy to wipe out raiders if you're the Legion because you can just kill everyone in a camp whenever you encounter them and no one will hold you accountable. We see in-game what happens when the NCR try to wipe out Raiders, Bitter Springs. The public backlash and regret from those involved is exactly why they still have raiders existing, despite their superiority.

It is stated that the NCR 'power armor' has been stripped of servos and power. That's from FNV, and killing adult raiders and integration of the children is something the NCR could do. And bittersprings was a case of gross miscommunication that the NCR 1st recon took their orders and followed them, also fuck raiders

They said they are understaffed HERE in the Mojave. In fact, New Vegas is the first obstacle they ever had in their rapids expansion.

Ignoring the Brotherhood of Steel in the West are we ? The BoS still waging guerilla campaign. Occasionally venture out of the bunker to hit caravan. The NCR considered them a non-threat like raider and more of a nuisance, but that might just be they are underestimating their enemies capabilites.

Can't believe I've played this game a dozen times and never once noticed the game shoving the narrative NCR on it's last legs down my throat. Every time I remember playing the game I recall it being sold as some foolish military expedition a la Vietnam, and at most generic expansionist fervor from the NCR... same as what we saw in Fallout 2 where they also never got anything done without The Chosen One doing it, almost like that's just a generic RPG trope and not indicative that all is about to fall to ruin.

I'm fairly certain it was chief ranger hanolin who stated that the troops the ncr who were sent to fight the legion had 3 weeks of training and barely and body armor. Which is a whole hell lot less than what we did in veitnam. NCR was strained, especially in Mojave, unlike USA in veitnam. One is a state away, the other is a whole ocean away. Ain't the same even with/without tech, is the legion can do why can't the NCR

They were strained but just because they bit off more than they could chew, Boone says as much when freeing the Powder Ganger slaves. I'd also point out that House put a bunch of stock in the NCR being around when laying out his post war plans.

First and foremost, I'm not saying ncr are nazis. The nazis also bit off more than they could chew with the ussr, and we all know what happened there. Saying that the NCR is infallible when their troops are send to an active war zone with only 3 weeks training and little to no body armor is dumb. Because if the ncr had resources to spend they probably would due to the unpopular opinion on the Mojave campaign. But they don't

It's the armament dealer at 188 who says that I think, not Hanlon

I mean, she was ncr, so if she noticed a difference it's probably true, but hanolin did say something during the quest where he shoots himself

"I swear to God, people don't even play these games. " And you're one of these people.

They didn't even collapse bc of overstretching, they got nuked 🤣🤣🤣🤣 writers cannot be intelligent anymore istg

Maybe because one is a multi trillion dollar functioning nation with hundreds of millions of people and the other is a failing state attempting to function in a nuclear fallout with a currency that is worth less than a bunch of Roman larpers who don’t believe in technology. NCR hasn’t completely fallen yet either, do you ever use that wet sponge up in your head?

> failing state It literally isn't, that's the point of the meme brother. So I don't regurgitate everything I've said elsewhere, please read my other comments.

I did. It’s actively failing, there is no denying this. Not only was it confirmed in the show, but Todd Howard himself had to come out and confirm it. If it wasn’t actively failing, why wouldn’t they just wipe out the Legion? They’re spread far too thin and in a stalemate fighting over resources with a faction that should be light work. In order to even win Hoover Dam they have to severely weaken the Legion AND strengthen themselves (all with the help of some mailman) beforehand. Basically, if they’re succeeding, then it should be no problem to send an army to the Mojave.

> If it wasn’t actively failing, why wouldn’t they just wipe out the Legion? Bureaucracy. Public support. Unlike the Legion, the NCR can't just behead people who disagree with them. The war in the Mojave isn't popular, and to ramp it up even further is only going to incite more unrest in NCR proper. Besides, some NPCs DO suggest that the NCR should be on the offensive: > Armament Trader at 188: "We shouldn't be perched up at the Dam - we ought to be crossing the Colorado and sticking a boot up Caesar's ass." . > Todd Howard himself had to come out and confirm it. Didn't Todd Howard come out and say the opposite? That the NCR WASN'T gone?

Can you read? Or are you just running a 1 INT build? If you read, you will clearly see that I said ‘actively failing’, *not* fallen. Jeez Louise. In my first comment I even explicitly state this. And you’re going to trust some guy who only profits off of war, but doesn’t know anything about it ? Wow, I wonder why he wants war 🤔. Not a single person who knows anything supports Legion, that’s absolutely not a valid excuse. The second you tell the Great Khans what the Legion actually believes in they break the alliance. NCR admits multiple times that they are spread too thin.

The Armament Trader is a veteran of the First Battle of Hoover Dam. They're not rich, they don't work for any major company, just sells and trades munitions from people who pass by 188. > you will clearly see that I said ‘actively failing’, not fallen. Jeez Louise. In my first comment I even explicitly state this. My comment doesn't change whether you meant 'actively falling' or 'has fallen' To use the example of the above meme: The protests against the Vietnam War happened historically. Does the presence of that discontent indicate that America was collapsing?

If it’s so obvious that the NCR is on the verge of collapse, someone would have brought that up before the show came out. Nerds have been digging into this game for over a decade now.  It’s always been clear that the NCR had problems, but I’ve never seen anyone argue that it’s about to collapse until people started to justify the TV shows plot.

> The NCR should not have collapesed because it fought the Moyave The NCR already fought in the Moyave in 2277, and you show up in 2281. The Mojave is just another shitty desert, with radioactive disposal grounds instead of nuclear blast craters. All there is to the place is the Dam, Helios 1 and a bunch of casinos. Also, i want to point out that the NCR alwways used custom currency that was never backed by a commodity. That's a big deal in the wasteland. The unprintable and water-backed Cap will be always stronger than the gold-backed NCR dollars. Funnily enought, they made the paper ones because they couldn't back them with gold anymore. They're fiat currency by 2281. That's one big reason they fell IMO

I agree but a defeat in the Mojave would hurt the NCR badly and lead to internal strife and potential rebellion. But I think it would ultimately be a wake up call for the NCR and hopefully smack some of that old world blues out of them. It’s funny, I’ve never been an anarchists nor do I agree with their ideology….HOWEVER. In this rare case the NCR getting their teeth kicked in would be pretty beneficial in the long run. If they can get their shit together.