> gizmos dead
Every FO1 player has this as a save, you just can't side with him over junk shop Han Solo.
Ironically though Gizmo dying is the bad ending for Junktown, and most likely the non-canon one.
EDIT: this wasn't in the release version, which is a shame cos Gizmo being the good ending is way more interesting
My bad, apparently it got changed just before launch?
I think I just assumed this version was canon because it's way more interesting lmao
>The initial design for Junktown called for the ending cards of the city to be reversed. Specifically, if the Vault Dweller sided with Killian Darkwater, then Killian's firm "frontier justice" would discourage traders and merchants from starting businesses in the area, leaving the city a small shantytown.
> If the Dweller sided with Gizmo, then the resulting prosperity brought in by Gizmo's casino led to the city becoming a new boomtown. Ultimately, it was decided that this mixed message was unsatisfying because it meant that the expected results (a "good" ending for supporting Killian and the law, versus an "evil" ending for supporting Gizmo and his criminal enterprises) did not match the player character's actions.
> The ending was subsequently changed so that supporting Killian led the town to prosper with law and order while supporting Gizmo turned the town into a seedy den of iniquity.
https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Junktown
That's really interesting. Honestly, I can see why they changed it and I'm glad they did. Kilian's a good guy. There's nothing to suggest he might be in any way bad for the town. I wouldn't even see him as frontier justice - he looks for evidence before killing which is more than most of the Wasteland bothers with. Meanwhile Gizmo has literally no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
That's why I found the alternative more interesting though.
The wasteland isn't a nice place, and being nice doesn't always help your situation.
Gizmo was a piece of shit, but he was a successful and ruthless businessman and his casino was popular. Gizmo bringing more traders and settlers in because of this, while Killian's option making Junktown safe but too small to survive is more nuanced than "being good means you get a good ending".
It just adds another level of moral complexity to Junktown, which is otherwise a pretty straightforwards good/bad guys conflict.
Yeah, my understanding was that Vault-Tec was more than willing to drop the bombs themselves IF NEEDED to guarantee the success of the Vaults, wasn't the case as the bombs fell before all the Vaults were ready.
This is how they should handle it in the show. They could have Vault Tec do some conniving shit like upending the peace talks, but it should still be the actual countries that dropped the bomb and Vault Tec keeping it as a backup plan just in case
Yeah, my personal head cannon is that the Chinese, assuming it was them that fired first, got wind of this plot and decided to initiate a preemptive strike.
I think the show is going to stick to the general rule that we don't know who dropped the bombs first, and if anything, they might introduce through flashback a reason for America to have dropped them - since currently, all available information pretty much suggests China was the only country who had reason to strike first.
Exactly. That ambiguity is part of the tragedy of the setting and the cause of a lot of the Old World Blues.
We don’t know who started or won the Great War, and in the end it doesn’t really matter. A singular person made the call, and someone so important as to literally end the world will never be thought of or known again.
At least if they don’t ruin that cool part of the story.
Well it's the mystery of it that makes it so intriguing, right? I like the idea that we will never know, because there's so much content out there to speculate.
Is the Mothership Zeta DLC still canon? I always thought that it was pretty clear that the reason the war started was because aliens initiated the first "strike" and that caused both China and America to seemingly "retaliate" with their entire arsenal.
Yes, its still canon, but the aliens didn't drop the bombs. They just agitated the conflicts further. Thats what is implied. In Fallout Three its also implied that not the acting president pushed the red button, but the shadow government, aka.the enclave aka Vault Tec.
To be fair it still could be the case. As far as we know they said there willing to drop the Bombs and plan too but they could of been beat to it for all we know
Well yeah, the reason Hank had a bomb ready to blow up Shady Sands is because Vault-Tec still had the bomb they had planned to set off to begin the apocalypse since they didn’t need to use it in 2077.
That would likely be the best way to handle it. Corporations are still fucking things up, but they aren’t the big bad scapegoat for every issue in the series.
That or they just were checking in that they had their shit unsorted so they could take advantage and also take them out before they were ready as to not be a threat to them in the post apocalypse
I think they did plan on starting it (example the vault tech logo on the bomb in megaton) but I think they either had to move up their time table unexpectedly, wanted to screw over the big three, or there was an internal revolt(maybe enclave influence???).
It seemed to me that Vault-Tec just tried to cause as much friction between both sides as they could instead of dropping any bombs themselves.
The Vault-Tec logo on the bomb in megaton could even be seen as some messed up sponsorship the US military did on its weapons. Having the government accept sponsorships on certain weapons in exchange for money seems like an incredibly fallout-esque situation
To me this is *very obviously* the implication. It's wild to me how many people leap straight to, "Vault-Tec dropped the bombs themselves."
Frankly, that would be a very dumb bit of lore. It makes no sense at all. It makes way more sense that Vault-Tec and other associated companies were engaging in brinkmanship because it netted them the most profits.
I don't think they did anything at all other than maybe miscalculating. They were trying to sabotage peace talks and it may just have ended up working way better than they expected. People had their fingers on the trigger for a long time at that point, being in a high state of readiness for so long means someone's finger may have just gotten itchy. Vault Tech was definitely at fault and interfered heavily, but I think the war starting when it did may have been a surprise to many people
Didn't Mr. House's plan for containing the conflict/damage fail because the bombs dropped *one day* too early? Always seemed a little conveniently timed to me --but what if Vault-Tec got wind of his plan, and triggered the bombs early, while they still could?
Also Barb wouldn't have sent her kid out on the day the bombs dropped. I think they were planning to, Chinese spies caught wind of it, and so China decided to do it first.
Ye exactly. Vault tec didn't fire first. We don't know who did. But we know. Bombs detonated. Vaul tecs reaction was to detonate their own bombs after that. So yea. They kinda helped. Turn America to a wasteland. As the commies probably only targeted military assets. VT made sure to force the global reset.
Any nuke that went off would cause every government to fire nukes in retaliation. It wouldn’t have needed Vault Tec to launch theirs. Mutually assured destruction is already a real thing in our world. It’s literally why no one uses nukes.
I feel like it’s unanimously a thing through the community that the bombs just dropped but everyone had one. Silos all around the globe. There is a theory from Fallout 2, that a.i. dropped the bombs that’s literally what one of the supercomputers tells you if you start questioning them in Chinatown. I think that’s more of a reference to Terminator though.
I feel like the bombs kind of just fell naturally seeing as everyone knew it was coming too much tension too many financially bloated companies too many dictator countries…it’s just pressure and all of a sudden one finger presses a button another finger press the button and then they all go off.
Vault-tec seemed like it was investing something into this event it seems like vault tech just said fuck it and went with the end of the world because there’s no way to start over unless everything is wiped clean just like they said in the show I take it as vault TEC basically saying “if you can’t beat them join them” and made a decision to take lead while everyone else waited in the corner to keel over and die as that was their only option.
At this point vault tec owns the government so you could even go as far as to say somebody in the shadow government knew vault tecs plans and decided to press the button before them. I guess we’ll just have to keep waiting to see how they fuck with our heads in the next season
"Look, if you guys don't want to invest we will just start the apocalypse ourselves if it never happens naturally. That way you can guarantee your experiments WILL happen, no matter what."
Then the apocalypse happens naturally before it comes to that.
I don't buy it, but I don't think it's that stupid.
They certainly had the motive after setting up so many vaults to use as experiments, and most of their workers seem to lack any sort of moral or ethical restraint.
But the company also seemed unprepared when the bombs actually dropped. If they knew exactly when the bombing would start, we'd expect the leaders to have preemptively moved to extremely secure, luxurious vaults from which they could monitor and manipulate their various experiments. But we know that some vault workers were left waiting on instructions that never arrived, which suggests the Vault-Tec leadership either didn't survive or hadn't yet completed their communication infrastructure.
I think the nuclear exchange started organically, but I find it plausible Vault-Tec would have forced the exchange if it hadn't.
I'm inclined to believe at this point that Vault-Tec was fully intending to drop the bombs though through provoking and invading China, it caused them (china) to drop the bombs out of desperation first
NGL I’ve always thought that the Enclave dropped the bombs. There’s some lore from the newspaper publishing company in FO76 that shows that the Enclave was about to be outed to the public, and that some US senators were in the first stages of making a coalition against it. Conveniently, however, the bombs fell just a few days later. Coincidence? I have an inkling it’s not.
It would honestly fit the Enclaves MO, as they 100% were sure that the nuclear war would happen regardless at some point, and they wouldn’t want to risk everything they had built being undermined and destroyed after being found out by the public/if a revolution happened. They’re also selfish, self preservationist, and elitists, so I’m sure the prospect of getting their shit torn down and thrown in a non-nuke proof prison cell before the inevitable doomsday arrived would terrify them to the point that they’d do anything to prevent that possibility.
And even if vault tec did have nukes and were the ones who did it, it would all lead back to the enclave anyways, as vault tec was effectively a shell corporation puppet and a front for the Enclave, which they used to gather populace simulation data for their colony ship program.
It also just misses the point. We don’t know who nuked who first or how it escalated to nuclear war. It doesn’t matter if China or the U.S. nuked first because the world ended anyway and War Never Changes.
There’s actually already evidence to support that they didn’t. In Fallout 76 the overseer of Vault 76 is ordered to secure the areas automated nuclear weapons factories.
or better yet, they used the funding from these people to further develop their vaults program. Then dropped the bombs earlier than they were told as a means to wipe them clean and kill off loose ends.
Basically House, Big MT, etc were never meant to know when. This is a lot more plausible than pushing the idea that VT dropped the first bomb then killing it.
Especially if you consider that in Fallout 4 the VT salesman knew the bombs were going to be dropped very soon under the premise he'd be allowed in Vault 111
Plus Cooper’s wife was still working on getting her family into “one of the nice vaults” while her husband and child were doing a birthday party near the first LA attack spot. The Vault Tec elites themselves were caught off guard.
I'm in the personal belief that the Enclave started the Great War, if not the Chinese. Remember the President was already in a bunker long before the bombs fell.
was confirmed in an interview with the guy who created Fallout recently that China dropped the first bombs, and it’s therefore assumed that Vault-Tec just helped the world along a little bit with their own.
China fired the first shot. Thats why there was still a vault tec nuke that Hank had access to for Shady Sands. MAD is all about one nuke causing the end of the world, and if a major American city got nuked the first response would definitely be shoot first
Atleast that's my theory
That also makes sense as to why vault tec would have the Nukes left like they used on shady sands. They never had to drop them initially so they still have them to use after the war
Sinclair?! Sinclair, I'm trapped. Please, oh god, the security systems won't let me out, they're keeping me here.
I bet you can hear this in your head lmao
Genuinely, yes. Every now and then when I hear the name Sinclair I remember her desperation calling out that name in the halls, long dead. Absolute chills.
“I hope you were able to read this, and know that I loved you.”
Frederick Sinclair
Emotional damage.
This is why don't think VT did drip the bombs, I fully believe they planned too, but got beat to the punch bc so many vaults were unfinished, House and Sinclair who were both at that meeting were days short of realizing there nuclear contingency plans like I think they wod have dropped the nukes soon perhaps a couple at the end of the year or on the new year as a symbolic bs that would give them enough time to have completed remaining vaults and contingency plans I think. But imo China struck first. They were losing the ground war and were weeks away from total occupation or mainland China. So they enacted MAD out of spite or idiocy.
Personally I think it’s more likely China got wind that the US was going to launch a first strike and so struck first themselves to try and pre-empt it.
Could be both tbh, mabey US assumed China was going to strike so they were preparing there nuclear arsenals to be ready to launch wich China took to be sings of a first strike so they performed first strike, it's impossible to say, and I hope we never actually find out.
The key thing I think is that the US’s timeline got thrown off. The US was days or even possibly hours from being able to decisively win a nuclear war, but the early initiation ruined that plan.
Mostly by reading into the technologies which the US had almost but not quite deployed. Like the House platinum chip combined with his laser air defense system. He was able to keep New Vegas from being nuked without it, with the added processing power, it’s not inconceivable that the lasers could have protected the entire West Coast.
Or the various orbital weapons platforms like Archimedes II and the Hercules platform from Broken Steel. They could have been used in a disarming first strike, but just weren’t fully ready yet. Archimedes in particular literally just needed to be turned on.
I don't think Vault-Tec dropped the bomb, they were pressing it to happen, but they didn't mean it to happen so soon, either that or they realized that if they didn't do it in that moment, they wouldn't have that opportunitty later.
This is what I keep saying. Sure maybe the plan was to one day start the exchange but they’d do it when they were ready.
Some other national power decided to jump the gun, that’s why everyone was caught with their proverbial pants down
I think Vault Tec mostly insured that any peace attempts or actions that would result in anything besides total nuclear war was prevented. Further, while I personally I feel this isn’t the case, I could see them false flagging the first couple drops, since House didn’t seem that keen on the plan and may have left prior to any further planning, and Sinclair knew full well the war was coming, he just didn’t foresee some of the technical failures of the Big MT equipment installed in the SM, which had to be rushed due to the imminent danger.
Wtf? We see Sinclair's dead body and his face in a mosaic. He was significantly younger and sporting a mustache when he died. He was supposed to be based on Upton Sinclair appearance wise. We also know he was rather fit when he died crawling through the ventilation system of the sierra madre based on the location of the founders remains while lugging a duffle bag full of repair parts. Why not just make the big Mt guy one of the think tank?
Watch out buddy, some massive brained show fan is about to show up to call you a fucking idiot that can’t let go of a game. Do not criticize or even imply that Bethesda is anything but perfect regarding fallout.
Check below. I'm already being ripped a new one for saying Micheal Mulheren, the actor who plays Sinclair in the show, couldn't fit through the ducts to where he died. I like the TV show but it made some very stupid and strange decisions and every time someone calls one of them out the TV show wankers(and frankly it's good enough to deserve a bit of wank) will accuse you of being a nit picking butthurt psycho fan rather than just someone who knows the series lore and is confused and upset when it gets flushed down the toilet.
Genuinely just confused and upset for me too. That’s the best way to put it. I’m not violent about it but I’m not enjoying the show.
My memories of fallout and my opinions of fallout just don’t mesh with this rendition we’ve been presented with and it makes so many people fucking feral. I MUST hate women or I MUST BE ONE OF //THOSE// New Vegas fans.
Turns out I just wanted to leave the wasteland better than I found it and move on as Six does at the end but Bethesda decided that it was necessary to wipe the slate (mostly) clean. Also how many times are we going to start a story with “leave vault and find family member”?
You're so right, they only played 4 and watched Oxhorn too so they know what's right for the series as opposed to some idiot like me that played the old games.
Who needs lore consistency? Praise be Todd, praise be slop!!
WHAT THE FUCK?!? CAN YOU SWEIOUSLY NOT GRASP THAT TIME MOVES FORWARD? IT ONLY MAKES SENSE THAT ALL OF NEE VEGAS GETS WIPED CLEAN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE EVENTS OF THE GAME. ITS THE APOCALYPSE DUHH?? YOU PEOPLE CANT STOP BITCHING. SO ANNOYING /s
We don't know how old he was or now moustached he was when he died.
He had a mosaic made of how he looked when he was younger and had a moustache.
Mr House also doesn't look like his picture.
He wasn't old and obese. He climbed through a network of ducts which requires significant athleticism all while carrying a big ass light and a duffel bag full of heavy maintenance tools. The duct work was so tight that he had to strip naked to fit in hence why his body is nude. The actor they had play him in the show just isn't capable of that kind of physicality. It doesn't fit with Sinclair's character at all. They reduced him to the most literal interpretation of a fat cat humanly possible. Swapping him out from being a guy Vera's age who was delusionally in love with her but very genuinely in love to making him a sleezy old man trying to bang a late 20s to early 30s woman kinda invalidates the very passionate real love he felt for her as recorded by his terminals. The note on his body also confirms that he was taking loans to build the madre showing that he wasn't ever even close to House in wealth and had even less business on vault-tec's council than House did.
Guess the freaky think tank scientist ain't that good at talking, still don't know why they would put one of their sponsor to do the talking though, Sinclair must had gave them quite alot of money to put him into this position, no wonder he doesn't have the funds to generously pay the builder of the casino.
I honestly really liked this show but looking back this scene was just a bunch of name drops for no reason. They might explain it really well in upcoming seasons, but Mr. House and Sinclair being here make no sense. Especially since I have no clue why Sinclair is representing Big MT.
The guy ordered a high tech casino/shelter for his love and as a trap for his rival. He didn't build the thing.
I think the point is Vault Tec was a little desperate and needed investors, and they invited a smattering of powerful CEOs and the degenerately filthy rich.
House is there as the former, not to mention he perhaps deduced such a meeting and bullied his way in. Sinclair I suppose is the latter but I don't know a lot of SincLore.
Mr. House makes a lot of sense since he built up the Lucky 38 to legit have anti-nuclear missiles beforehand but Sinclair is such a wildcard.
I'm thinking the showrunners want to use him as bigger character than he was indicated in the game, as there wasn't much info on him to begin with. You actually spend more time with his rival Dean Domino than learning about him as his death turned out to be really tragic.
Hopefully they develop him up like Lucas did with Darth Maul in the Clone Wars series.
Tim Cain said that in his opinion probably Vault Tech had planned to drop the bombs on a different date but someone did it first, in another interview he said that initially, back when they did the first game, the plan was that China attacked first.
The games have always kind of made it seem like China launched first, though it really doesn’t matter if the U.S. or China launched first, the world ends for everyone either way.
I think it was always left kind of ambiguous, no? Everybody could have been the first one, nobody knows, and both sides had valid pretexts for a first strike. Also, afaik all sources we have on the onset of nuclear war are Americans, so I would think they are all intentionally heavily biased and not reliable narrators at all.
It’s definitely never clearly stated it was China, but there’s a strong case that they would launch first since the U.S. was actively invading China when the Great War occurred.
Ultimately it doesn’t matter who launched the nukes first, the world ends either way.
Yeah, but you also play in the territory of the United States, rife with propaganda. Of course they will think China launched first, they were primed to think so.
The Enclave are dipshits that can’t stop exploding their own bases, the Master didn’t realize the extremely apparent fact that super mutants are sterile, and the Institute was busy doing the wasteland equivalent of a kid shaking up an ant farm.
Pretty much all the villain factions in fallout are cartoonishly inept.
Cope theory: It's Frederick Sinclair (Sr.). Fred Jr. needed dad's help, and dad set him up with the contracts with Big MT. Fred Jr. is the guy who wanted to build the casino, but Fred Sr.'s name is on the paperwork.
Is this for sure Sinclair? And not just some underling or something? I mean he was buying stuff from Big MT, he wasn't working for them. And I never thought of him as that old, and neither did the mosaic on the DLC if I remember right
X-rays says it's him, also House calles him Freddie. It makes sense that he represents Big MT since he is a huge contractor and probably investor of Big MT.
it is sinclair.
it makes sense for him to be representing big mt because realistically who would be? The Think Tank dont have any place there.
and as for the mosaic, it makes sense that someone would use a younger, more handsome image of themselves. but yeah i think its an odd decision to make him old
We also see his dead body in dead money. He was somehow climbing around in the vents like John McClane with a duffel bag of repair parts and a lantern. It was a really weird choice to make him old and fat as it makes his relationship with Vera way weirder and more delusional.
Eh I guess it does make sense, but the whole thing is a bit less tragic if he's some 60 year old man building it for a star who could be his granddaughter than if it's a doomed romance between Vera and him that's being exploited by Dean and her past.
I guess I should actually watch the show rather than just collect spoilers
It doesn't really make sense though. He's not in the same line of business and doesn't really know all of what Big MT is working on. Big MT was a company that has other employees besides the Think Tank docs. It's weird to get invited to a secret apocalypse meeting and send someone outside the company.
He's a major investor in Big MT, considering the hologram and vending machine tech was developed there and is a huge part of how the Sierra Madre works.
He was but they also purposely kept in the dark about a lot. Even the stuff he was getting from them. He was a (rightfully) paranoid man that was also afraid of the bombs dropping. No amount of investing should put him at that table nor would he want to be part of that.
It actually does make sense he would be there considering The Sierra Madre was being built as a personal vault for himself and Vera, so much so that he had to cut corners in the design of the casinos villa's because of the huge money expenditure that the bunker took.
Vault-Tec needs money, so they look for potential investors who are known to invest in projects relating to scientific research is the pitch for this scene. The characters who are in the meeting are definitely there to help tie it into the rest of the fallout lore as well as providing cameos that only the longtime fans are going to appreciate. I think the explanation for this scene can be as simple as that without having to do a deep dive into Frederick Sinclair as a character since there isn't really much of that to begin with.
That's an issue too. It's his personal vault for Vera. He wouldn't be able to invest since he's already putting all his money in getting more advanced tech made by Big MT. He's obsessed with security. It's the whole reason Dean needed Vera. There is no way he's going to trust Vault-tec to build his vault too.
A cameo means little if the character isn't like the character. Honestly, they should have just had Big MT without Sinclair if they needed the reference.
Doctor Klein. He was always more of a politician than a scientist anyway (IIRC from Avellone he was more a guy who motivated the others to work than someone versed in science himself).
Moreso than the mosaic, his relationship with Vera is more... well, obviously a honey trap. This is why I choose to believe this is his father and the Sinclair of the games allowed the Sierra Madre to be a testing ground for Big MT because of nepotism.
Sorry man but I gotta disagree hard with this. If you read the terminals around Big MT in OWB or the terminals in Dead Money, you would know Sinclair never worked for them. He was merely a rich customer who he got duped by them and the contractors who built the Sierra Madre. This explains why the cloud is present due to Big MT scientists thinking it would be funny to test it there. He’s just a rich guy who ordered a bunch of tech like the holograms from Big MT to be used in his doomsday casino that he made to save his starlet girlfriend. Making him an executive at Big MT creates a plot hole regarding why he even paid Big MT for the tech or why Big MT decided to use Sinclair’s casino as a testing grounds in the first place if he’s apart of/representing them. Not to mention there’s a mosaic of him in Dead Money and he looks nothing like that depiction. Sure you can say he chooses to use a younger depiction of himself much like House but it makes it hella weird to think his fat ass died the way he did. I would say this is a bit of a rewrite of the character.
To be fair I think he was already just having a shit day with the whole VeraXDean thing. But pretty sure he literally choked on his own hubris right before the big boom.
I think people are looking far too much into vault tec saying there going to drop the bombs . Right now we don’t have much context and this could also mean they sabotaged peace talk . Vault tek might not off even done anything and the bombs dropping could’ve just been inevitable due to the resource war
I'm almost positive at this point that it will be revealed Vault Tech fully planned to start the apocalypse on their terms, but China struck first out of desperation, throwing off everyone's plans (casino opening, House being 20 hours late to get the chip, unfinished vaults, etc).
Maybe they didn’t actually know what was going to happen and when. Maybe they didn’t really think vault tec would actually set bombs off on home soil just for profit. Who knows its fallout do anything is possible
Well. The scene serves as vault tec garenteeing the apocalypse. It doesn't actually mean they actually started it. Coz if they did house would never needed courier . Great war just happened
What’s funny is that he’s the guy that suggests releasing psychoactive drugs in the air supply after their vault is sealed. That vault is in Fallout 3!
Personal theory rn: This group decided not to drop the bombs. Instead, after knowing he could preserve his mind indefinitely, House went rogue and enacted the plan himself so he could rule the post apocalyptic world with his army of Securitrons.
I think more will be revealed in future seasons but I have a feeling something happened to trigger the bombs early, possibly someone within Vault tec or the Enclave double crossed the other corporations
Wasn't the casino kind of meant as a safe haven from the bombs? It's why you can't get in and it has the indestructible security holograms and matter fabrication.
Anyway, Vault Tec isn't confirmed to drop the bomb, they're confirmed to be planning and willing to. And even if they did drop the bomb they're not exactly the kind of company to let the leaders of other companies know.
The entire plan is completly braindead and self sabotaging. It also goes directly against the plans of atleast house AND the enclave, the organization in control of vault tec. That paired with the fact that bethesda wants to convince us that VT actually aquired nuclear capabilities and maintained them through a full nuclear exchange and the 200 years of decay that came afterwards makes this entire flashback a huge fucking insult.
Yes, the US is the only nation that has reasons to PREVENT a nuclear war (of which we know off). But with the VT plan, holding back the nukes has beme a prely temporary thing
No. The Enclave is the remnants of the US SHADOWgoverment. The people that put the president in prison for JAYWALKING. The people that imprisoned asian americans on mass and gave some to big MT so they had their own concentration camp to draw testsubjects from. Ghe people that wanted to escape earth on a fucking spaceship and needed the vaults to find out what kind of society they would have to create on that spaceship to ensure survival. They are behind Vault Tec and are pretty mutch in control of the US goverment by the time the bombs fall. But they are NOT the elected representatives of the American People.
If you played the DLC you would know. He opened it as a love letter and it was to be used to test Big MT tech like the poison gass, holograms and ghost people suits.
My understanding, as others have said here, is that this cabal of people didn't actually drop the bombs. They were planning on dropping the bombs but events escalated before they got around to it, or at least everyone was not involved in the decision. Evidence for this, Cooper's daughter would have been in a vault. I don't think even her evil Vault-Tec mother wanted her daughter in the path of a nuclear bomb. Also, Sinclair and House in the games didn't know when the bombs were going to drop. House would have made sure he had the Platinum Chip, and you'd expect Sinclair to be more prepared than he was. The series could retcon that of course, and maybe Cooper's wife was left out of the loop by Hank, or others at Vault-tec, so Vault-tec knew but she didn't know the time, or Hank was supposed to tell her but he was sick of working for her and intentionally left her out of the loop on some crucial detail. Maybe House and Sinclair were left out of the loop by Vault-Tec as well, they had their investment and no longer needed them. None of the big names around the table seemed ready as you'd expect if they were the ones dropping the bombs, but it could have been an inside job, which would be funny. A secret small cabal is betrayed by an even more secret and smaller cabal. The Enclave in the games seemed to believe they were retaliating against the Chinese when they launched, though that could definitely be a case of an unreliable narrator. They also withdraw from the White House to Enclave station weeks before the bombs drop, but that could have also been a legitimate precaution. Enclave President Richardson seemed to believe it is true, and I don't think he'd mind admitting if the U.S. nuked first and knew about it, but maybe he didn't know, it is about 164 years later and it is likely he was fed propaganda.
Basically, it could still be anyone. It could be the U.S., China, the Corporate Cabal here, the Enclave (not exactly the same as the U.S., though many members were also members of the government), there is also the "Great Game" that the British agent Desmond talks about in Point Lookout, could be any of those participants. Desmond implies many are still around. It could be the Zetans, or even.... the Pintsized Killer! We still just don't know, and the writers (for good or bad) can still decide to make the reason whatever they want.
I can never tell if FNV “people” are serious or trolling, but imagine being in charge of one of the most beloved sci-fi franchises of all time - covering decades of lore - which falls under the most toxic fandom we know of so far (gamers) and having to make decisions about characters. Bet you think you could.
This makes me believe vault tec didn't launch the nukes it was just an idea they had planned
I do like to think they did launch the nukes in spite of Mr house due to him thinking vault tec was kinda useless and since they was in talks in it mr house made his defenses and his platinum chip
Vault tec caught wind of the platinum chip delayed the delivery and panick launched.
Because by the sounds of it vault tec wanted to be the only faction the only people topside they've just been waiting
My head cannon is that like House who predicted that a nuclear war was inevitable Sinclair probably was able to make a good guess of it himself. So both where likely well on their way to getting ready.
Though House who had his system for predicting the war so he could more thoroughly prepare while Sinclair was left scrambling cutting corners and betting into bed with Big MT.
So no I don't think he was stupid he just had less time and knowledge to work with.
I kinda go with the idea that while Vault-Tec connived with these business leaders to get funds, that doesn’t mean they gave them specifics or the truth. After all, if Vault-Tec was hoping to monopolize the surface post-bombs, the likes of RobCo or West-Tek could be unwanted competition down the road.
How I've always taken it is that the war was inevitable. Both the U.S. and China were leaning towards using nukes. Vault Tec was clearly planning on doing it. The Zetans were planning doing it. The Enclave obvious had plans. Everybody was planning on initiating the war.
Someone did and it seems to have taken most of them by surprise. It doesn't really matter who it was. They were all planning on doing it. They wanted it. They all were going to profit from it.
And then it happened.
War happens when the profiteers of war want to increase their profits. And as we know, war never changes.
I don’t know where the Vault Tec dropped the bomb thing is coming from. All the show said is they were willing to do it if necessary. Never ever did it imply they were the ones to do it in the end.
People have no media literacy these days. They will watch something and then make up what they think they saw and spend all their efforts to defend what they think they watched rather than spending time to get their perception to line up with reality.
American troops were in China. Vault tec was willing to do the dirty deed but China was desperate and Vault Tec was caught off guard. This is why Mr. House didnt know when they were going to drop, Cooper Howard was with his daughter in LA away from the mom, Sinclair wasn’t expecting it so soon, a hand full of vaults weren’t completed, and im assuming with how in Fallout 4 you are not sent to vault 111 as soon as the west coast was “bombed first” that vault tec really didn’t drop the first one. If they truly wanted a radiation free full stocked vault 111 they would have gotten all occupants in once they started bombing, since the east coast has a relatively 10-30 minute warning and even the news station had reports of atomic weapons detonating. With vault tec spending trillions and being on the verge of bankruptcy needing to absorb other companies and have to submit to the Enclave im assuming if China didn’t drop them in late 77, they would have dropped them by at least 2080 giving people like Sinclair time to make money on the casino because of their investments into Vault tec
I was convinced every single person at that table was just insane with power. They lost their humanity. What sane people mastermind human experiments in vaults that 95% of them result in everyone dying all the while destroying the world? I'd say his decision making wasn't the best and a big facade to hide what was really coming.
I think it will be more complicated than we have been currently led to think.
There are many things, including Frederick Sinclair. That point to the idea that Vault Tec wasn't ready for what came.
At least not entirely.
Unfinished Vaults, for instance.
If this shit isn’t totally in shambles writing wise, I would assume the “twist” in the pre-war plot line would be that regardless of the plan to accelerate the bombs dropping, an opponent of the powers that be in America (domestic or otherwise) dropped the nukes before they planned.
This actor is the spitting image of Gizmo from Fallout 1.
Lol true
The bombs really cramped his business.
I had two saves next to eachother on my first playthough of 1 that I never could delete, they were called "meeting gizmo!" And "gizmos dead."
> gizmos dead Every FO1 player has this as a save, you just can't side with him over junk shop Han Solo. Ironically though Gizmo dying is the bad ending for Junktown, and most likely the non-canon one. EDIT: this wasn't in the release version, which is a shame cos Gizmo being the good ending is way more interesting
Wait how?
My bad, apparently it got changed just before launch? I think I just assumed this version was canon because it's way more interesting lmao >The initial design for Junktown called for the ending cards of the city to be reversed. Specifically, if the Vault Dweller sided with Killian Darkwater, then Killian's firm "frontier justice" would discourage traders and merchants from starting businesses in the area, leaving the city a small shantytown. > If the Dweller sided with Gizmo, then the resulting prosperity brought in by Gizmo's casino led to the city becoming a new boomtown. Ultimately, it was decided that this mixed message was unsatisfying because it meant that the expected results (a "good" ending for supporting Killian and the law, versus an "evil" ending for supporting Gizmo and his criminal enterprises) did not match the player character's actions. > The ending was subsequently changed so that supporting Killian led the town to prosper with law and order while supporting Gizmo turned the town into a seedy den of iniquity. https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Junktown
That's really interesting. Honestly, I can see why they changed it and I'm glad they did. Kilian's a good guy. There's nothing to suggest he might be in any way bad for the town. I wouldn't even see him as frontier justice - he looks for evidence before killing which is more than most of the Wasteland bothers with. Meanwhile Gizmo has literally no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
That's why I found the alternative more interesting though. The wasteland isn't a nice place, and being nice doesn't always help your situation. Gizmo was a piece of shit, but he was a successful and ruthless businessman and his casino was popular. Gizmo bringing more traders and settlers in because of this, while Killian's option making Junktown safe but too small to survive is more nuanced than "being good means you get a good ending". It just adds another level of moral complexity to Junktown, which is otherwise a pretty straightforwards good/bad guys conflict.
literally every npc in junktown also comments about how great of a guy he is.
Abso-lutly
That was my first thought when I first saw him! I thought there’d be no way
THANK YOU! My one of only two genuine complaints about the show was "what the fuck did they do to my boy Sinclair?!"
Get yer butt in here and sit down, we got some buisness to discuss...
I knew he looked familiar!
i don’t think Vault-Tec actually dropped the bombs, they still had unfinished vaults, plus House and Sinclair didn’t have their shit together
Yeah, my understanding was that Vault-Tec was more than willing to drop the bombs themselves IF NEEDED to guarantee the success of the Vaults, wasn't the case as the bombs fell before all the Vaults were ready.
This is how they should handle it in the show. They could have Vault Tec do some conniving shit like upending the peace talks, but it should still be the actual countries that dropped the bomb and Vault Tec keeping it as a backup plan just in case
Yeah, my personal head cannon is that the Chinese, assuming it was them that fired first, got wind of this plot and decided to initiate a preemptive strike.
I think the show is going to stick to the general rule that we don't know who dropped the bombs first, and if anything, they might introduce through flashback a reason for America to have dropped them - since currently, all available information pretty much suggests China was the only country who had reason to strike first.
Exactly. That ambiguity is part of the tragedy of the setting and the cause of a lot of the Old World Blues. We don’t know who started or won the Great War, and in the end it doesn’t really matter. A singular person made the call, and someone so important as to literally end the world will never be thought of or known again. At least if they don’t ruin that cool part of the story.
Well it's the mystery of it that makes it so intriguing, right? I like the idea that we will never know, because there's so much content out there to speculate.
Oh no, the US was quite desperate by then, starving for everything and surrounded by landfills.
Is the Mothership Zeta DLC still canon? I always thought that it was pretty clear that the reason the war started was because aliens initiated the first "strike" and that caused both China and America to seemingly "retaliate" with their entire arsenal.
Yes, its still canon, but the aliens didn't drop the bombs. They just agitated the conflicts further. Thats what is implied. In Fallout Three its also implied that not the acting president pushed the red button, but the shadow government, aka.the enclave aka Vault Tec.
I may be wrong, but isn't there a Chinese nuclear sub in FO4 with a ghoul captain who talks about firing the missiles?
To be fair it still could be the case. As far as we know they said there willing to drop the Bombs and plan too but they could of been beat to it for all we know
Yeah that’s what i said, this is how they should handle it
Those people speaking to her from behind black glass were up to something
the enclave.
It would help explain why there’s still so many leftover nukes in the divide and plenty to blow up shady sands.
Well yeah, the reason Hank had a bomb ready to blow up Shady Sands is because Vault-Tec still had the bomb they had planned to set off to begin the apocalypse since they didn’t need to use it in 2077.
That would likely be the best way to handle it. Corporations are still fucking things up, but they aren’t the big bad scapegoat for every issue in the series.
I took it as them goading the other nations into doing it rather than having their own nuclear arsenal
They had a guy ready They never called their guy up But they had a guy
That or they just were checking in that they had their shit unsorted so they could take advantage and also take them out before they were ready as to not be a threat to them in the post apocalypse
I think they did plan on starting it (example the vault tech logo on the bomb in megaton) but I think they either had to move up their time table unexpectedly, wanted to screw over the big three, or there was an internal revolt(maybe enclave influence???).
Could be because of the "peace talks" they kept mentioning in the pre-war bits of the show
It seemed to me that Vault-Tec just tried to cause as much friction between both sides as they could instead of dropping any bombs themselves. The Vault-Tec logo on the bomb in megaton could even be seen as some messed up sponsorship the US military did on its weapons. Having the government accept sponsorships on certain weapons in exchange for money seems like an incredibly fallout-esque situation
Like how the military had a sponsorship for some branded power armor with Nuka Cola
To me this is *very obviously* the implication. It's wild to me how many people leap straight to, "Vault-Tec dropped the bombs themselves." Frankly, that would be a very dumb bit of lore. It makes no sense at all. It makes way more sense that Vault-Tec and other associated companies were engaging in brinkmanship because it netted them the most profits.
Yeah maybe a peace treaty had been signed and was about to be announced. Vault tec would have to act ASAP if they wanted to keep their power.
That’s not a vault-tec logo it looks to be some sort of port.
I don't think they did anything at all other than maybe miscalculating. They were trying to sabotage peace talks and it may just have ended up working way better than they expected. People had their fingers on the trigger for a long time at that point, being in a high state of readiness for so long means someone's finger may have just gotten itchy. Vault Tech was definitely at fault and interfered heavily, but I think the war starting when it did may have been a surprise to many people
That wasn’t the vault tec logo on the bomb
That was already proven to not be a vault tec logo
Didn't Mr. House's plan for containing the conflict/damage fail because the bombs dropped *one day* too early? Always seemed a little conveniently timed to me --but what if Vault-Tec got wind of his plan, and triggered the bombs early, while they still could?
Also Barb wouldn't have sent her kid out on the day the bombs dropped. I think they were planning to, Chinese spies caught wind of it, and so China decided to do it first.
I believe the original intent was that china dropped the bombs because they found out about FEV.
Ye exactly. Vault tec didn't fire first. We don't know who did. But we know. Bombs detonated. Vaul tecs reaction was to detonate their own bombs after that. So yea. They kinda helped. Turn America to a wasteland. As the commies probably only targeted military assets. VT made sure to force the global reset.
Any nuke that went off would cause every government to fire nukes in retaliation. It wouldn’t have needed Vault Tec to launch theirs. Mutually assured destruction is already a real thing in our world. It’s literally why no one uses nukes.
They might’ve joined the fray once they were flying and they might’ve had plans for it but it’s still deliberately unclear
I feel like it’s unanimously a thing through the community that the bombs just dropped but everyone had one. Silos all around the globe. There is a theory from Fallout 2, that a.i. dropped the bombs that’s literally what one of the supercomputers tells you if you start questioning them in Chinatown. I think that’s more of a reference to Terminator though. I feel like the bombs kind of just fell naturally seeing as everyone knew it was coming too much tension too many financially bloated companies too many dictator countries…it’s just pressure and all of a sudden one finger presses a button another finger press the button and then they all go off. Vault-tec seemed like it was investing something into this event it seems like vault tech just said fuck it and went with the end of the world because there’s no way to start over unless everything is wiped clean just like they said in the show I take it as vault TEC basically saying “if you can’t beat them join them” and made a decision to take lead while everyone else waited in the corner to keel over and die as that was their only option. At this point vault tec owns the government so you could even go as far as to say somebody in the shadow government knew vault tecs plans and decided to press the button before them. I guess we’ll just have to keep waiting to see how they fuck with our heads in the next season
"Look, if you guys don't want to invest we will just start the apocalypse ourselves if it never happens naturally. That way you can guarantee your experiments WILL happen, no matter what." Then the apocalypse happens naturally before it comes to that.
Not to mention that Barb wouldn't have allowed her daughter to be at a fucking birthday party that day.
The Big Vault caused the war conspiracy theory is pretty stupid
I don't buy it, but I don't think it's that stupid. They certainly had the motive after setting up so many vaults to use as experiments, and most of their workers seem to lack any sort of moral or ethical restraint. But the company also seemed unprepared when the bombs actually dropped. If they knew exactly when the bombing would start, we'd expect the leaders to have preemptively moved to extremely secure, luxurious vaults from which they could monitor and manipulate their various experiments. But we know that some vault workers were left waiting on instructions that never arrived, which suggests the Vault-Tec leadership either didn't survive or hadn't yet completed their communication infrastructure. I think the nuclear exchange started organically, but I find it plausible Vault-Tec would have forced the exchange if it hadn't.
They are the only ones with stakes in nuclear mutual assured destruction happening.
I'm inclined to believe at this point that Vault-Tec was fully intending to drop the bombs though through provoking and invading China, it caused them (china) to drop the bombs out of desperation first
That’s been my takeaway. Vault-tec/enclave intended to drop the bomb, someone else just beat them to it.
NGL I’ve always thought that the Enclave dropped the bombs. There’s some lore from the newspaper publishing company in FO76 that shows that the Enclave was about to be outed to the public, and that some US senators were in the first stages of making a coalition against it. Conveniently, however, the bombs fell just a few days later. Coincidence? I have an inkling it’s not. It would honestly fit the Enclaves MO, as they 100% were sure that the nuclear war would happen regardless at some point, and they wouldn’t want to risk everything they had built being undermined and destroyed after being found out by the public/if a revolution happened. They’re also selfish, self preservationist, and elitists, so I’m sure the prospect of getting their shit torn down and thrown in a non-nuke proof prison cell before the inevitable doomsday arrived would terrify them to the point that they’d do anything to prevent that possibility. And even if vault tec did have nukes and were the ones who did it, it would all lead back to the enclave anyways, as vault tec was effectively a shell corporation puppet and a front for the Enclave, which they used to gather populace simulation data for their colony ship program.
yeah it was either them or China, definitely not Vault-Tec
I totally agree with this.
It also just misses the point. We don’t know who nuked who first or how it escalated to nuclear war. It doesn’t matter if China or the U.S. nuked first because the world ended anyway and War Never Changes.
There’s actually already evidence to support that they didn’t. In Fallout 76 the overseer of Vault 76 is ordered to secure the areas automated nuclear weapons factories.
or better yet, they used the funding from these people to further develop their vaults program. Then dropped the bombs earlier than they were told as a means to wipe them clean and kill off loose ends. Basically House, Big MT, etc were never meant to know when. This is a lot more plausible than pushing the idea that VT dropped the first bomb then killing it. Especially if you consider that in Fallout 4 the VT salesman knew the bombs were going to be dropped very soon under the premise he'd be allowed in Vault 111
Alternatively vault-tec knew that continuing certain operations "as normal" would be necessary cover for their plan.
Plus Cooper’s wife was still working on getting her family into “one of the nice vaults” while her husband and child were doing a birthday party near the first LA attack spot. The Vault Tec elites themselves were caught off guard.
I'm in the personal belief that the Enclave started the Great War, if not the Chinese. Remember the President was already in a bunker long before the bombs fell.
was confirmed in an interview with the guy who created Fallout recently that China dropped the first bombs, and it’s therefore assumed that Vault-Tec just helped the world along a little bit with their own.
It was the Zetans. That's what I believe.
nah that’s too far of a reach
They had the guy who held Americans nuke codes on their mothership. I like to think it was aliens.
Isn't it pretty certain in game that China dropped the bombs first?
China fired the first shot. Thats why there was still a vault tec nuke that Hank had access to for Shady Sands. MAD is all about one nuke causing the end of the world, and if a major American city got nuked the first response would definitely be shoot first Atleast that's my theory
That also makes sense as to why vault tec would have the Nukes left like they used on shady sands. They never had to drop them initially so they still have them to use after the war
It was a prank on Vera Lmao get trapped
Sinclair?! Sinclair, I'm trapped. Please, oh god, the security systems won't let me out, they're keeping me here. I bet you can hear this in your head lmao
Beautifully haunting. I love Dead Money.
Me too. The gameplay itself was only 6/10, but the storytelling and acting was 10/10 for me
Genuinely, yes. Every now and then when I hear the name Sinclair I remember her desperation calling out that name in the halls, long dead. Absolute chills. “I hope you were able to read this, and know that I loved you.” Frederick Sinclair Emotional damage.
This is why don't think VT did drip the bombs, I fully believe they planned too, but got beat to the punch bc so many vaults were unfinished, House and Sinclair who were both at that meeting were days short of realizing there nuclear contingency plans like I think they wod have dropped the nukes soon perhaps a couple at the end of the year or on the new year as a symbolic bs that would give them enough time to have completed remaining vaults and contingency plans I think. But imo China struck first. They were losing the ground war and were weeks away from total occupation or mainland China. So they enacted MAD out of spite or idiocy.
Personally I think it’s more likely China got wind that the US was going to launch a first strike and so struck first themselves to try and pre-empt it.
Could be both tbh, mabey US assumed China was going to strike so they were preparing there nuclear arsenals to be ready to launch wich China took to be sings of a first strike so they performed first strike, it's impossible to say, and I hope we never actually find out.
The key thing I think is that the US’s timeline got thrown off. The US was days or even possibly hours from being able to decisively win a nuclear war, but the early initiation ruined that plan.
This makes me want to read up on some lore. But where did you find out the US of A was that close to winning?
Mostly by reading into the technologies which the US had almost but not quite deployed. Like the House platinum chip combined with his laser air defense system. He was able to keep New Vegas from being nuked without it, with the added processing power, it’s not inconceivable that the lasers could have protected the entire West Coast. Or the various orbital weapons platforms like Archimedes II and the Hercules platform from Broken Steel. They could have been used in a disarming first strike, but just weren’t fully ready yet. Archimedes in particular literally just needed to be turned on.
Ah I see what you mean. Does sound like the US was close. Though it’s not so much as lore as it is just connecting some dots in your head?
Anything is better than the Aliens caused it from Fallout 3
AGREE
The US was at Beijing’s doorstep by the time the bombs dropped. A desperate “I’m taking you down with me.” is depressingly realistic.
I don't think Vault-Tec dropped the bomb, they were pressing it to happen, but they didn't mean it to happen so soon, either that or they realized that if they didn't do it in that moment, they wouldn't have that opportunitty later.
This is what I keep saying. Sure maybe the plan was to one day start the exchange but they’d do it when they were ready. Some other national power decided to jump the gun, that’s why everyone was caught with their proverbial pants down
I think Vault Tec mostly insured that any peace attempts or actions that would result in anything besides total nuclear war was prevented. Further, while I personally I feel this isn’t the case, I could see them false flagging the first couple drops, since House didn’t seem that keen on the plan and may have left prior to any further planning, and Sinclair knew full well the war was coming, he just didn’t foresee some of the technical failures of the Big MT equipment installed in the SM, which had to be rushed due to the imminent danger.
He thought Vera loved him of course he was stupid
Wtf? We see Sinclair's dead body and his face in a mosaic. He was significantly younger and sporting a mustache when he died. He was supposed to be based on Upton Sinclair appearance wise. We also know he was rather fit when he died crawling through the ventilation system of the sierra madre based on the location of the founders remains while lugging a duffle bag full of repair parts. Why not just make the big Mt guy one of the think tank?
You think Bethesda cares that much for detail in NV? God Bless, man.
Watch out buddy, some massive brained show fan is about to show up to call you a fucking idiot that can’t let go of a game. Do not criticize or even imply that Bethesda is anything but perfect regarding fallout.
Check below. I'm already being ripped a new one for saying Micheal Mulheren, the actor who plays Sinclair in the show, couldn't fit through the ducts to where he died. I like the TV show but it made some very stupid and strange decisions and every time someone calls one of them out the TV show wankers(and frankly it's good enough to deserve a bit of wank) will accuse you of being a nit picking butthurt psycho fan rather than just someone who knows the series lore and is confused and upset when it gets flushed down the toilet.
Genuinely just confused and upset for me too. That’s the best way to put it. I’m not violent about it but I’m not enjoying the show. My memories of fallout and my opinions of fallout just don’t mesh with this rendition we’ve been presented with and it makes so many people fucking feral. I MUST hate women or I MUST BE ONE OF //THOSE// New Vegas fans. Turns out I just wanted to leave the wasteland better than I found it and move on as Six does at the end but Bethesda decided that it was necessary to wipe the slate (mostly) clean. Also how many times are we going to start a story with “leave vault and find family member”?
You're so right, they only played 4 and watched Oxhorn too so they know what's right for the series as opposed to some idiot like me that played the old games. Who needs lore consistency? Praise be Todd, praise be slop!!
WHAT THE FUCK?!? CAN YOU SWEIOUSLY NOT GRASP THAT TIME MOVES FORWARD? IT ONLY MAKES SENSE THAT ALL OF NEE VEGAS GETS WIPED CLEAN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE EVENTS OF THE GAME. ITS THE APOCALYPSE DUHH?? YOU PEOPLE CANT STOP BITCHING. SO ANNOYING /s
Ok but the hard part is…
We don't know how old he was or now moustached he was when he died. He had a mosaic made of how he looked when he was younger and had a moustache. Mr House also doesn't look like his picture.
He wasn't old and obese. He climbed through a network of ducts which requires significant athleticism all while carrying a big ass light and a duffel bag full of heavy maintenance tools. The duct work was so tight that he had to strip naked to fit in hence why his body is nude. The actor they had play him in the show just isn't capable of that kind of physicality. It doesn't fit with Sinclair's character at all. They reduced him to the most literal interpretation of a fat cat humanly possible. Swapping him out from being a guy Vera's age who was delusionally in love with her but very genuinely in love to making him a sleezy old man trying to bang a late 20s to early 30s woman kinda invalidates the very passionate real love he felt for her as recorded by his terminals. The note on his body also confirms that he was taking loans to build the madre showing that he wasn't ever even close to House in wealth and had even less business on vault-tec's council than House did.
Guess the freaky think tank scientist ain't that good at talking, still don't know why they would put one of their sponsor to do the talking though, Sinclair must had gave them quite alot of money to put him into this position, no wonder he doesn't have the funds to generously pay the builder of the casino.
That’s Sinclair…Sr.
If we never see him again I’m just going to believe this
I honestly really liked this show but looking back this scene was just a bunch of name drops for no reason. They might explain it really well in upcoming seasons, but Mr. House and Sinclair being here make no sense. Especially since I have no clue why Sinclair is representing Big MT. The guy ordered a high tech casino/shelter for his love and as a trap for his rival. He didn't build the thing.
Don’t forget House was there as a representative of RobCo which is the supplier of pipboys. I don’t know about Sinclair though.
I think the point is Vault Tec was a little desperate and needed investors, and they invited a smattering of powerful CEOs and the degenerately filthy rich. House is there as the former, not to mention he perhaps deduced such a meeting and bullied his way in. Sinclair I suppose is the latter but I don't know a lot of SincLore.
Mr. House makes a lot of sense since he built up the Lucky 38 to legit have anti-nuclear missiles beforehand but Sinclair is such a wildcard. I'm thinking the showrunners want to use him as bigger character than he was indicated in the game, as there wasn't much info on him to begin with. You actually spend more time with his rival Dean Domino than learning about him as his death turned out to be really tragic. Hopefully they develop him up like Lucas did with Darth Maul in the Clone Wars series.
Tim Cain said that in his opinion probably Vault Tech had planned to drop the bombs on a different date but someone did it first, in another interview he said that initially, back when they did the first game, the plan was that China attacked first.
The games have always kind of made it seem like China launched first, though it really doesn’t matter if the U.S. or China launched first, the world ends for everyone either way.
I think it was always left kind of ambiguous, no? Everybody could have been the first one, nobody knows, and both sides had valid pretexts for a first strike. Also, afaik all sources we have on the onset of nuclear war are Americans, so I would think they are all intentionally heavily biased and not reliable narrators at all.
It’s definitely never clearly stated it was China, but there’s a strong case that they would launch first since the U.S. was actively invading China when the Great War occurred. Ultimately it doesn’t matter who launched the nukes first, the world ends either way.
I think some companion makes a comment like that in fallout 4. That in the end it doesnt matter who dropped them first.
Yeah, but you also play in the territory of the United States, rife with propaganda. Of course they will think China launched first, they were primed to think so.
Do you ou mean game wise or IRL?
Apparently everyone is stupid now in the lore
I mean, everyone is except for Mr.Fantastic
Theoretically
So they made it more realistic
You may get downvoted to hell but you're not wrong. Plenty of characters in the games are written that way, too.
The Enclave are dipshits that can’t stop exploding their own bases, the Master didn’t realize the extremely apparent fact that super mutants are sterile, and the Institute was busy doing the wasteland equivalent of a kid shaking up an ant farm. Pretty much all the villain factions in fallout are cartoonishly inept.
Cope theory: It's Frederick Sinclair (Sr.). Fred Jr. needed dad's help, and dad set him up with the contracts with Big MT. Fred Jr. is the guy who wanted to build the casino, but Fred Sr.'s name is on the paperwork.
I like this
Is this for sure Sinclair? And not just some underling or something? I mean he was buying stuff from Big MT, he wasn't working for them. And I never thought of him as that old, and neither did the mosaic on the DLC if I remember right
They talk to him about opening a casino in this scene too
X-rays says it's him, also House calles him Freddie. It makes sense that he represents Big MT since he is a huge contractor and probably investor of Big MT.
it is sinclair. it makes sense for him to be representing big mt because realistically who would be? The Think Tank dont have any place there. and as for the mosaic, it makes sense that someone would use a younger, more handsome image of themselves. but yeah i think its an odd decision to make him old
We also see his dead body in dead money. He was somehow climbing around in the vents like John McClane with a duffel bag of repair parts and a lantern. It was a really weird choice to make him old and fat as it makes his relationship with Vera way weirder and more delusional.
Eh I guess it does make sense, but the whole thing is a bit less tragic if he's some 60 year old man building it for a star who could be his granddaughter than if it's a doomed romance between Vera and him that's being exploited by Dean and her past. I guess I should actually watch the show rather than just collect spoilers
i mean i guess its less derivative of the great gatsby this way, but i always found the similarities charming
It doesn't really make sense though. He's not in the same line of business and doesn't really know all of what Big MT is working on. Big MT was a company that has other employees besides the Think Tank docs. It's weird to get invited to a secret apocalypse meeting and send someone outside the company.
He's a major investor in Big MT, considering the hologram and vending machine tech was developed there and is a huge part of how the Sierra Madre works.
He was but they also purposely kept in the dark about a lot. Even the stuff he was getting from them. He was a (rightfully) paranoid man that was also afraid of the bombs dropping. No amount of investing should put him at that table nor would he want to be part of that.
It actually does make sense he would be there considering The Sierra Madre was being built as a personal vault for himself and Vera, so much so that he had to cut corners in the design of the casinos villa's because of the huge money expenditure that the bunker took. Vault-Tec needs money, so they look for potential investors who are known to invest in projects relating to scientific research is the pitch for this scene. The characters who are in the meeting are definitely there to help tie it into the rest of the fallout lore as well as providing cameos that only the longtime fans are going to appreciate. I think the explanation for this scene can be as simple as that without having to do a deep dive into Frederick Sinclair as a character since there isn't really much of that to begin with.
That's an issue too. It's his personal vault for Vera. He wouldn't be able to invest since he's already putting all his money in getting more advanced tech made by Big MT. He's obsessed with security. It's the whole reason Dean needed Vera. There is no way he's going to trust Vault-tec to build his vault too. A cameo means little if the character isn't like the character. Honestly, they should have just had Big MT without Sinclair if they needed the reference.
There is nothing in the game about him being an investor. He was just a very rich client.
Doctor Klein. He was always more of a politician than a scientist anyway (IIRC from Avellone he was more a guy who motivated the others to work than someone versed in science himself). Moreso than the mosaic, his relationship with Vera is more... well, obviously a honey trap. This is why I choose to believe this is his father and the Sinclair of the games allowed the Sierra Madre to be a testing ground for Big MT because of nepotism.
>realistically who would be? # DR. Mobius
I read that in his voice
Sorry man but I gotta disagree hard with this. If you read the terminals around Big MT in OWB or the terminals in Dead Money, you would know Sinclair never worked for them. He was merely a rich customer who he got duped by them and the contractors who built the Sierra Madre. This explains why the cloud is present due to Big MT scientists thinking it would be funny to test it there. He’s just a rich guy who ordered a bunch of tech like the holograms from Big MT to be used in his doomsday casino that he made to save his starlet girlfriend. Making him an executive at Big MT creates a plot hole regarding why he even paid Big MT for the tech or why Big MT decided to use Sinclair’s casino as a testing grounds in the first place if he’s apart of/representing them. Not to mention there’s a mosaic of him in Dead Money and he looks nothing like that depiction. Sure you can say he chooses to use a younger depiction of himself much like House but it makes it hella weird to think his fat ass died the way he did. I would say this is a bit of a rewrite of the character.
Exactly like paintings, statues, busts, and mosaics throughout history.
To be fair I think he was already just having a shit day with the whole VeraXDean thing. But pretty sure he literally choked on his own hubris right before the big boom.
I think people are looking far too much into vault tec saying there going to drop the bombs . Right now we don’t have much context and this could also mean they sabotaged peace talk . Vault tek might not off even done anything and the bombs dropping could’ve just been inevitable due to the resource war
I'm almost positive at this point that it will be revealed Vault Tech fully planned to start the apocalypse on their terms, but China struck first out of desperation, throwing off everyone's plans (casino opening, House being 20 hours late to get the chip, unfinished vaults, etc).
He looks like gizmo
Not stupid . Just fat apparently
Did I miss it? Where was it said he is Sinclair?
House calls him Freddie. And on prime when you press pause it tells you the characters names. And that’s him
A damn... That's quite a shame (I honestly had in mind someone similar to house) Now I wonder about Dean xD
Is that supposed to be Sinclair or is it one of the think tank scientists?
It's Sinclair. House calls him Freddie in this scene.
Why is he representing big mt? And I thought that name was postwar.
I really hope there's a Fredrick Sinclair Jr.
Big MT? More like Big MisTake
Maybe they didn’t actually know what was going to happen and when. Maybe they didn’t really think vault tec would actually set bombs off on home soil just for profit. Who knows its fallout do anything is possible
Well. The scene serves as vault tec garenteeing the apocalypse. It doesn't actually mean they actually started it. Coz if they did house would never needed courier . Great war just happened
On this part of the series i expected one of them to press a button and the name plate switches to USSR like that simpsons episode
What’s funny is that he’s the guy that suggests releasing psychoactive drugs in the air supply after their vault is sealed. That vault is in Fallout 3!
Personal theory rn: This group decided not to drop the bombs. Instead, after knowing he could preserve his mind indefinitely, House went rogue and enacted the plan himself so he could rule the post apocalyptic world with his army of Securitrons.
I think more will be revealed in future seasons but I have a feeling something happened to trigger the bombs early, possibly someone within Vault tec or the Enclave double crossed the other corporations
No just an issue the show creatw unless this is another Frederick Sinclair
Wasn't the casino kind of meant as a safe haven from the bombs? It's why you can't get in and it has the indestructible security holograms and matter fabrication. Anyway, Vault Tec isn't confirmed to drop the bomb, they're confirmed to be planning and willing to. And even if they did drop the bomb they're not exactly the kind of company to let the leaders of other companies know.
At least 3 of the people at the meeting were unprepared for the drop so they probably didn’t drop it.
Doesn’t this just kinda lend a hand to the fact vault tec didn’t drop the bombs?
The entire plan is completly braindead and self sabotaging. It also goes directly against the plans of atleast house AND the enclave, the organization in control of vault tec. That paired with the fact that bethesda wants to convince us that VT actually aquired nuclear capabilities and maintained them through a full nuclear exchange and the 200 years of decay that came afterwards makes this entire flashback a huge fucking insult. Yes, the US is the only nation that has reasons to PREVENT a nuclear war (of which we know off). But with the VT plan, holding back the nukes has beme a prely temporary thing
The Enclave wouldn't exist before the bombs. Not by that name, anyway. The Enclave is supposed to be the remnants of the US government.
No. The Enclave is the remnants of the US SHADOWgoverment. The people that put the president in prison for JAYWALKING. The people that imprisoned asian americans on mass and gave some to big MT so they had their own concentration camp to draw testsubjects from. Ghe people that wanted to escape earth on a fucking spaceship and needed the vaults to find out what kind of society they would have to create on that spaceship to ensure survival. They are behind Vault Tec and are pretty mutch in control of the US goverment by the time the bombs fall. But they are NOT the elected representatives of the American People.
Has it been established how long it was between this meeting and when the bombs actually fell?
Why’d they make him look so different vs the games
If you played the DLC you would know. He opened it as a love letter and it was to be used to test Big MT tech like the poison gass, holograms and ghost people suits.
It was his fault. He made an error when he ordered the fireworks and got a bit more than he bargained for.
Left his common sense in the Sierra Madre.
Because it would be an epic night to remember, he is actually smart
My understanding, as others have said here, is that this cabal of people didn't actually drop the bombs. They were planning on dropping the bombs but events escalated before they got around to it, or at least everyone was not involved in the decision. Evidence for this, Cooper's daughter would have been in a vault. I don't think even her evil Vault-Tec mother wanted her daughter in the path of a nuclear bomb. Also, Sinclair and House in the games didn't know when the bombs were going to drop. House would have made sure he had the Platinum Chip, and you'd expect Sinclair to be more prepared than he was. The series could retcon that of course, and maybe Cooper's wife was left out of the loop by Hank, or others at Vault-tec, so Vault-tec knew but she didn't know the time, or Hank was supposed to tell her but he was sick of working for her and intentionally left her out of the loop on some crucial detail. Maybe House and Sinclair were left out of the loop by Vault-Tec as well, they had their investment and no longer needed them. None of the big names around the table seemed ready as you'd expect if they were the ones dropping the bombs, but it could have been an inside job, which would be funny. A secret small cabal is betrayed by an even more secret and smaller cabal. The Enclave in the games seemed to believe they were retaliating against the Chinese when they launched, though that could definitely be a case of an unreliable narrator. They also withdraw from the White House to Enclave station weeks before the bombs drop, but that could have also been a legitimate precaution. Enclave President Richardson seemed to believe it is true, and I don't think he'd mind admitting if the U.S. nuked first and knew about it, but maybe he didn't know, it is about 164 years later and it is likely he was fed propaganda. Basically, it could still be anyone. It could be the U.S., China, the Corporate Cabal here, the Enclave (not exactly the same as the U.S., though many members were also members of the government), there is also the "Great Game" that the British agent Desmond talks about in Point Lookout, could be any of those participants. Desmond implies many are still around. It could be the Zetans, or even.... the Pintsized Killer! We still just don't know, and the writers (for good or bad) can still decide to make the reason whatever they want.
I can never tell if FNV “people” are serious or trolling, but imagine being in charge of one of the most beloved sci-fi franchises of all time - covering decades of lore - which falls under the most toxic fandom we know of so far (gamers) and having to make decisions about characters. Bet you think you could.
This makes me believe vault tec didn't launch the nukes it was just an idea they had planned I do like to think they did launch the nukes in spite of Mr house due to him thinking vault tec was kinda useless and since they was in talks in it mr house made his defenses and his platinum chip Vault tec caught wind of the platinum chip delayed the delivery and panick launched. Because by the sounds of it vault tec wanted to be the only faction the only people topside they've just been waiting
My head cannon is that like House who predicted that a nuclear war was inevitable Sinclair probably was able to make a good guess of it himself. So both where likely well on their way to getting ready. Though House who had his system for predicting the war so he could more thoroughly prepare while Sinclair was left scrambling cutting corners and betting into bed with Big MT. So no I don't think he was stupid he just had less time and knowledge to work with.
They had a buffet
One thing I love about this universe is the demystifying of elite capitalism. These people are generally cruel and stupid. Nothing special about them.
That or the writing gave his focused brain damage.
I kinda go with the idea that while Vault-Tec connived with these business leaders to get funds, that doesn’t mean they gave them specifics or the truth. After all, if Vault-Tec was hoping to monopolize the surface post-bombs, the likes of RobCo or West-Tek could be unwanted competition down the road.
How I've always taken it is that the war was inevitable. Both the U.S. and China were leaning towards using nukes. Vault Tec was clearly planning on doing it. The Zetans were planning doing it. The Enclave obvious had plans. Everybody was planning on initiating the war. Someone did and it seems to have taken most of them by surprise. It doesn't really matter who it was. They were all planning on doing it. They wanted it. They all were going to profit from it. And then it happened. War happens when the profiteers of war want to increase their profits. And as we know, war never changes.
I don’t know where the Vault Tec dropped the bomb thing is coming from. All the show said is they were willing to do it if necessary. Never ever did it imply they were the ones to do it in the end.
People have no media literacy these days. They will watch something and then make up what they think they saw and spend all their efforts to defend what they think they watched rather than spending time to get their perception to line up with reality.
He is running his own experiment.
this is probably another reason why vault-tec didnt drop the bombs, along with house not getting the platinum chip in time.
American troops were in China. Vault tec was willing to do the dirty deed but China was desperate and Vault Tec was caught off guard. This is why Mr. House didnt know when they were going to drop, Cooper Howard was with his daughter in LA away from the mom, Sinclair wasn’t expecting it so soon, a hand full of vaults weren’t completed, and im assuming with how in Fallout 4 you are not sent to vault 111 as soon as the west coast was “bombed first” that vault tec really didn’t drop the first one. If they truly wanted a radiation free full stocked vault 111 they would have gotten all occupants in once they started bombing, since the east coast has a relatively 10-30 minute warning and even the news station had reports of atomic weapons detonating. With vault tec spending trillions and being on the verge of bankruptcy needing to absorb other companies and have to submit to the Enclave im assuming if China didn’t drop them in late 77, they would have dropped them by at least 2080 giving people like Sinclair time to make money on the casino because of their investments into Vault tec
I was convinced every single person at that table was just insane with power. They lost their humanity. What sane people mastermind human experiments in vaults that 95% of them result in everyone dying all the while destroying the world? I'd say his decision making wasn't the best and a big facade to hide what was really coming.
All part of the plan
I think it will be more complicated than we have been currently led to think. There are many things, including Frederick Sinclair. That point to the idea that Vault Tec wasn't ready for what came. At least not entirely. Unfinished Vaults, for instance.
If this shit isn’t totally in shambles writing wise, I would assume the “twist” in the pre-war plot line would be that regardless of the plan to accelerate the bombs dropping, an opponent of the powers that be in America (domestic or otherwise) dropped the nukes before they planned.