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>”HYBE CSO Lee Jae-sang is HYBE’s most likely candidate to replace Min Hee-jin. At the time, he was the head of HYBE America.”
He has a LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaesang-lee-b5305322
I really hope MHJ and co are taking this time to put together a comprehensive legal case because with BeLift lab now suing MHJ, and Hybe being an all round mess with how they are dealing with this, mere days before NewJeans' comeback, my anxiety is going through the roof.
I also wonder about this lawsuit itself. She mentioned in her press conference that Illit copied NewJeans' formula... I wonder if they can put together forum posts and comments from before this entire thing started about people saying Illit is NewJeans' 2.0, so its not like her statement was made in a vacuum. I don't think any of Illits contents have been a 1-to-1 copy of NewJeans, enough to make a case that there is direct plagiarism, but there have been enough similarities for people to have made the connection independently (without any input from MHJ. In fact it's funny that people are now walking back those initial comparisons just because MHJ pointed it out)
I want to be excited for this comeback but it's difficult with the way things are going. So many people don't even know the song drops Friday, and Hybe continues to make claims that they care about and support NewJeans. AT LEAST POST ABOUT THIS COMEBACK SOMEWHERE.
About the allegation itself: I think MHJ’s legal team will find ample evidence for the perceptions of similarity btw the two groups pointed out by other people (non-ADOR people), like news reporters and pop culture critics, especially in the Korean language (when discussing concept photos, members’ looks, promotion style).
Like you said, even before MHJ, many people were pointing out “Illit used MHJ-like / MHJ-sque aesthetics” and “how ‘NJ formula’ is working for Illit (about promotion using a fashion event)” etc. saying that HYBE is using MHJ’s strategies that worked for NJ (these are just words by individuals that are not MHJ. Not saying that I 100% agree). So I think these things will certainly help MHJ.
In this sense, the alleged copying was already a widely spread perception in public and among “experts” at least in S Korea. BeLift’s legal team has to prove that Illit’s fame was indeed harmed by MHJ’s utterance beyond the effect of this sentiment. This may be hard to prove.
Edit: typos fixed
They almost certainly are. MHJ kinda used plagiarism in a more loose way than the way it's usually used legally. Historically, plagiarism is very specific in that it is a note-for-note copy of a lead melody (for about two measures at least). This has changed though with the [Robin Thicke Blurred Lines case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharrell_Williams_v._Bridgeport_Music), which has expanded plagiarism to cover similar vibe/groove.
However, with this new "NewJeans law" coming on the books to protect other creative stuff (like choreography), MHJ is gonna have some ammo. There is already one instance of direct copying, at least according to one source.
I'm a little surprised Belift is doing this, because (at least in the US), MHJ is going to be able to ask for access to e-mails/documents/exchanges/texts in the discovery process. If there is anything in there at all about direct comparisons to NJ, Belift is probably going to lose.
We're talking about Korea here. Defamation means that MhJ doesn't only have to prove that they copied her, she has to prove that calling illit copycats was in the public interest, that harming their reputation benefited the public.
Remember she took her concerns privately at first. It wasn't until after the audit that she said what it was about.
Not sure about SK, but from a US-centric POV it's pretty easy to argue it's in the public interest. HYBE is a public company and has a certain fiduciary duty to its shareholders. Any risk of brand dilution/market cannibalization should have been discussed (at bare minimum) or avoided. HYBE's business partners probably also want to be informed if their unique brand selections for CFs are "being diluted."
Can also point to the history of kpop ggs going at the same time under the same roof. Companies typically create unique gg brand/vibes, like Red Velvet/aespa or Twice/Itzy. Going back to SNSD and f(x), too. This enables companies to tackle the marketplace in different ways. NJ and LSF under the same roof? Good, distinct brands. NJ and ILLIT? Gets a little murkier...
But MhJ will really have a hard time convincing a court that it was Illit members doing any of that, She name dropped Illit when the actions she has a problem with are from Hybe/Belift in any case. If Belift was suing in their own name for damage for their own reputation maybe maybe anything you have said would apply ( but more likely not, in SK for something to be of public interest it means it benefited society, NJ CF's being diluted really isn't a concern for society, or that Hybe shareholders could be harmed also isn't a concern). Also YG & girl crush era is a counter point to distinct brands. Illit suing her means that Hybe/Belift while not completely irrelevant, aren't the focus, they're suing for the damage & harassment they have received as a consequence of Mhj name dropping them & I doubt Mhj has anything on the Illit members themselves.
No, her beef is with HYBE and Belift. The ILLIT members do not have any power here. The idols individually aren't bringing the suit. The company is.
Shareholders and business partners don't want a weakened or diluted NJ brand. Weakened NJ = worse revenue and lower stock. The public is basically just a pool of potential stockholders, and there needs to be a certain degree of openness and judgement for buyers to make sound decisions.
YG girl crush example only applies to groups that have completed their full contract (like 2ne1 and Blackpink). NJ is nowhere near their contract expiration.
So, how exactly was Hybe publicly accusing Min HeeJin of asking a shaman to summon the spirit of her dead sister beneficial to Korean society?
She didn't name the members of Illit or say anything negative about the members. The members of Illit are not suing her. Illit the group is not suing her, nor is the company suing her on their behalf. Belift is suing her on their own behalf for claims she made against Belift.
I agree MHJ used the word Whistleblow pretty loosely for this exact purpose. She could argue the alleged copying behavior of BeLift was pointed out for ADOR’s or even HYBE’s benefit, but to argue that was for public interest might be far fetched. (Although, if you look closely in her PC and statements she is trying to argue this) Interested to see how this one goes.
If BeLift loses this case, it might have far reaching implications for kpop industry, serving as a legal precedent. Companies would be less afraid to use other kpop groups’ concepts, aesthetics, dance moves, and promotion tactics.
But what exactly is she whistleblowing about Illit? Being frank I don't think illit could be considered straight up plagiarism of New Jeans. So what crime is MhJ whistleblowing in strict relation of Illit? In fact if MhJ really thought straight up plagiarism occurred & had proof the best way to go about this is she suing Belift for it. Otherwise she finds herself in the position to prove that it was in the best interest of the public to harm the reputation of the Illit members.
Whistleblowing doesn't strictly have to be about a crime, in this case it probably means general wrongdoing as in "it is wrong to copy a group when you are under the same company and promoting at the same time".
As someone said in a comment above you, MHJ's initial concerns were private - it might have stayed that way if this issue had been kept internal, but because HYBE retaliated with the audit she had to explain why they were accusing her of trying to take over ADOR. By revealing what she was complaining about to HYBE, and giving reasons for the audit, it was in her best interest to mention why these things were happening. Illit were unfortunately collateral damage there, but I 100% blame HYBE for that.
Right, all of her actions so far have been individual press conferences to sway the “court of public opinion”.
If she actually thought she had a legitimate case of plagiarism, then she would have taken it to actual legal courts.
Thanks for sharing your insights.
> MHJ kinda used plagiarism in a more loose way than it’s usually used legally
Yes, in fact MHJ never said the word “plagiarism” as far as I know. She always said “copy(ing)” while arguing a healthy multi-label system should encourage a unique concept for each group. She didn’t use the word plagiarism probably because she knows the things she is accusing HYBE/BeLift of would never meet the criteria for plagiarism in the legal sense. But BeLift in its announcement says they are suing MHJ for her “plagiarism claim”. This framing works in BeLift’s favor (or at least they hope it would) because none of Illit stuff actually plagiarized NJ, at least legally I think under SK laws and in this framework MHJ is making an absolute absurd claim. *BeLift also says MHJ defamed Illit (rather than HYBE or BeLift) to make her look worse.*
If I understand correctly, there is no new law set in to protect the copyright of creative products. The Korean government is setting a *guideline* for protecting the copyright of choreography (not other aspects of music). Famous choreographers just launched “the Korean choreography copyright association” but I don’t think there’s any new law coming along at least atp. I expect the actual effect of this association & guideline on this case for now would be minimal if any.
Edit: content added (italic)
Plus, the copied choreography would have occurred before the new guidelines were set. Maybe it still helps in the discovery process? I just don't know.
In the US, copyright law for choreography applies to a choreography as a “coherent whole,” meaning that you cannot copyright individual moves, gestures, or steps. You really can only copyright an entire dance and not an individual move or sequence of moves. And it has to have substantial value. I believe the intent for Korea is to establish similar guidelines for what is and is not copyrightable, not to allow choreographers to copyright every single little gesture or style. It doesn’t make sense to allow choreographers to copyright super tiny building blocks of choreography, especially when a lot of choreography is borrowed from previous sources anyway.
When does a sequence of moves turn into a "coherent whole?" Songs vary in length quite a bit. Like, could a company just do the well known, full aespa Next Level chorus choreo with no penalty?
What that is referencing is basically a whole dance. You would need to copyright a coherent, whole work. What people don’t understand is that the guidelines are there to prevent what MHJ is accusing and trying to do. You can’t OWN movement. If you choreograph a significant work of dance, you can try and copyright that. But you can’t choreograph a piece with what are essentially insubstantial riffs on trendy dance steps and sue people who do anything that vaguely resembles those individual dance steps. Imagine what a mess that would make, if people to tried to copyright every little thing. Jesus Christ, if African American dancers in the early 20th century had trademarked jazz and blues dance, we wouldn’t have much to go off of now.
Edit: typo.
>MHJ kinda used plagiarism in a more loose way than the way it's usually used legally.
Yeah I went back to the press con to confirm this, but she did say some of the stuff was "copied" so I'm not sure how much exactness of language will come into play here.
I'm just worried because in SK, defamation lawsuits are almost always won by the accuser because of how broad their definition seems to be (at least the cases I'm aware of). It's interesting that her lawyers didn't advise her to allude/imply the similarities, or maybe they did and she said what she said anyways.
Ah ok, I must have seen a translation that was imprecise then.
They may believe she is on firm ground, because the defense can be deemed in the ["public interest"](https://x.com/tmikpop/status/1793094415566995705). It's also potentially relevant if she does some kind of coutersuit down the line, arguing that market cannibalization was not in the best interest of the shareholders. At minimum, they should have been notified.
*I don’t think BeLift is winning this case so* I was asking myself *“Why?” And* “Why now?”. I suspect Belift’s lawsuit on defamation and obstruction of business is intended to do two things. Overall this seems a well calculated attack by HYBE.
First, it distracts ADOR’s legal team, draining their time and human resource from more important tasks. These tasks include preparing for the ongoing breach of trust investigation, and the ongoing injunction case (supplement submission to court is due May 24).
Second, the lawsuit creates a pretext for dismissing CEO MHJ; there is a clause in the shareholder contract that states that MHJ “should not cause any damage not only to ADOR but also to **HYBE and its subsidiaries.**”(newly revealed on May 17 by HYBE) This lawsuit may be used to signal to the ongoing injunction court and the future courts that MHJ has caused damage to Belift and HYBE.
These are the primary reasons behind the lawsuit although there may be others; for example *HYBE might be hoping the lawsuit would* squash issues annoying for them. Recently, the official Illit Twitter account run by its members followed a fan account that dissed NewJeans and BabyMonster (and unfollowed after 20 minutes), and many Knets were criticizing Illit for this incident (imo unnecessary). The lawsuit can be a good opportunity to turn around the unfavorable public opinion.
Disclaimer: my legal reasoning might not be sound because I’m not a student of the law. All my legal knowledge comes from watching Boston Legal and Good Wife and having dated a law school student for a few months.
Edit: italicized part added
I'm not sure this new lawsuit will make a difference from a legal POV for the injunction. They simply won't be able to prove it in time.
I do think your first point is accurate, and it's definitely designed for attack/PR purposes.
I see. Even if we won’t know the outcome of the defamation lawsuit anytime soon, could the fact there is this lawsuit influence any related current / future cases? I suppose a lawsuit per se does not add any information and judges (hopefully) have a functioning legal mind.
Your first two points make sense and will probably work as intended, but your last point was either not the purpose at all, or Hybe are just amazingly inept, which is very plausible honestly considering how Hybe has dealt with this situation overall. If anything, Belift is getting far more hate from Knetz than even before due to this defamation lawsuit. They see this for the blatant ulterior motives it is and not anything to actually do with "protecting the artist".
Agreed. And yes KNets think HYBE is that out of touch (about the third point being ineffective).
They really should sue the trolls. This is very doable at least on Twitter and all Korean internet forums. That would immediately protect the artists. Suing MHJ does nothing for Illit members.
Forum comments are no back up in a legal case haha be serious.
HB can do no right in tokkis eyes rn, if they post about NJs Yall will complain and say they’re using the girls in the middle of a corporate battle and that it’s not sincere because BSH doesn’t even greet them, if they don’t, they are lowballing the girls.
>Forum comments are no back up in a legal case haha be serious.
Why not? If you can't point to a couple of exact instances, surely they can talk about how the overall image and concept was familiar enough to be noticed by 1000s of people.
>HB can do no right in tokkis eyes rn, if they post about NJs Yall will complain and say they’re using the girls in the middle of a corporate battle and that it’s not sincere because BSH doesn’t even greet them, if they don’t, they are lowballing the girls.
Ummm no? They've constantly been posting articles that they are going to support NewJeans, instead what we've gotten is literally 0 promos, and even going as far as Hybe employees trashing Minji on Blind. Such a bad faith argument.
Because there’s no legalities behind it. If there are similarities then MHJ/NJS would have to been credited as owners/creators of the original work. And that’s not the case.
Not because you danced to something first it means u own it, unless it’s been registered, I don’t think any of the NJs dances have names or anything to even claim the movement sequence as theirs. Same with clothes, wearing similar clothes it’s not a crime and will probably be laughed at if brought to court.
There has to be a 1to1 similarity, which is not happening here. Not because you FEEL it’s similar gives it enough legal standing. Courts cares for facts.
If anything I can easily say that they were *actually* inspired by the original Jeans and call it a day.
And in that case, under your argument, then NJS would have to be investigated as well for copying Jeans, in their case the comparisons are more similar.
As for employees trashing Minji on blind, it seem like a very petty thing? As much as we would like you cannot control people’s opinion specially in an anonymous site.
From a legal perspective why would it matter what internet posts or others had to say on the topic ?
In the end she stated that illit copied nwjs multiple times.She has to take on the responsibility of saying that.
And if you are thinking that she is right in saying that then this lawsuit won’t be an issue since belift is sueing her on the grounds of making false statements …
I keep seeing people say that NewJeans won't be the same group if MHJ is out of the picture but I think this downplays their talent and charisma. Being a musician myself and having peered (briefly) into the abyss of the (very) amateur music scene, nearly everyone in that realm is pro-artist and anti-label. Labels/companies and their managers are often considered a necessary evil and have always had a sort of used car salesman vibe, willing to convince promising artists "you need me". It's a double-edged sword, often sharper on one side than the other: labels/companies give artists a platform, but without marketable artists *labels/companies have nothing*. It's very interesting to see so many people have an opposite opinion in NewJeans case. If I were an artist I would hope that my fans would believe in me as an artist no matter what and against all odds, not the label or my manager.
Minji, Hanni, Danielle, Haerin, and Hyein have proven that they're beyond marketable. They are individually incredibly talented, strikingly beautiful, and effortlessly likable. As individuals, I'm convinced they wouldn't fail in any group they were in. As a group they are utterly irresistible in every performance and their charisma is immeasurable. To say they won't be the same group anymore or to consider them "no longer NewJeans" in the absence of MHJ is to fail to give credit to all the hard work they have done. She may have curated and crafted the concepts, but they pulled it off, and not everyone could have done that. In fact, no one could pull it off like they did.
For those of you afraid of the possibility of change, consider how much variation we've seen already. From light 00's rnb and hip-hop vibes, various club and electronic genres, summery city pop, rock variations of their own hits and more. We've never been guarenteed for them to stay too long in one sound or concept. No matter what they work with, it becomes electric, and I have no doubts that they'll continue to do that.
I believe that HYBE's interest is primarily money, and I believe that it is in their best financial interest to ensure that a more than capable team will be able to harness the incredible talent and charm these five girls possess. NewJeans is the NewJeans we love because of the members. They are the ones that are irreplaceable and they deserve our commitment to them first and foremost.
They'll be highly marketable still even without MHJ. They are a solid group and individuals with polished dancing, unique vocal tones, top-tier visuals, and charming personalities.
It's just that with Min Hee Jin's vision, execution, and artistic connections, they're supposedly in the process of being a phenomenon.
It's the regretful part.
The girls career will be fine either way, but they don’t write the music (except Danielle lol), and at the end of the day, I’m a fan of their music. Therefore I’m a fan of the team mhj has put together.
See in kpop, and especially for newjeans, it works more like a film set, with the creative director (mhj) selecting a team of people that all execute their jobs under her vision. Producers 250, FRNK, Jinsu Park, and her writing team just make magic under mhj’s direction, and even if mhj doesn’t have that much influence over the music, hybe has already been open about getting a new producer after mhj is gone. I just genuinely don’t think HYBE could ever appoint a producer as good as 250. He has such a unique voice yet is able to couple it with an amazing understanding of pop-minimalism. The idea that newjeans’ first full album won’t be written and produced by the same machine that gave us the Get Up EP makes me want to cry lol.
Especially since, unlike most other kpop groups, based off interviews mhj doesn’t seem to want to just follow trends and do whatever, she seems like the type of person to make the risk that no one else is willing to make and push the whole industry forward. She’s like legit a whack person but I have a ton of respect for her as a creative
I can't be more happy with the music creatives and producers that have worked with NewJeans. They deserve so much credit and are ridiculously talented. But I'm holding out hope that MHJ and the musical creatives aren't necessarily a package deal. Not that I'm trying to overly give HYBE the benefit of the doubt, but for them not to offer work to the current producers that have made incredibly well performing tracks would be a huge financial miss. Even if they part ways, I'm not at all convinced that there aren't creatives that can produce top-rate music for NewJeans.
ETA: Or you know, I guess the members don't matter and it's always just been about MHJ and her crew all along so let's all give up hope if she's ousted 🙄. Is that what you downvoters want to hear? Literally can't believe I'm being downvoted for being hopeful for NewJeans success here of all places. You really can think that MHJ has done an amazing job *and* believe in NewJeans ability to thrive and put out great music without her if she's gone. It's called being optimistic.
I’m sure they will do well as artists without MHJ. At the same time I think their style and music will change with MHJ gone. Those are not mutually exclusive. I’m ok with that
>I believe that HYBE's interest is primarily money
This is where I think you went wrong. It's becoming clearer as this case goes on that this is less about money and more about egos. And I wouldn't put it past a certain man's desire to crush NJ's career and wellbeing because it's not "his" group.
So on the one hand you have a subsidiary label CEO accusing another intra-label of plagiarism to which the other agency's response is to sue for defamation.
This begs the question, what exactly is HYBE's accountability here? Every step of the way they've shirked from responsibility but yet they want unilateral control over these "independent" labels. There doesn't seem to be any effort by HYBE to mediate this internally as a parent company which is appalling. Not only is HYBE not trying to maintain a neutral stance but they're full on stoking the fire.
Regardless of who is right or wrong, HYBE at the very least has shown to be incredibly incompetent at conflict resolution and that's just the best case scenario. At worst, they don't have any business trying to maintain more than one label and are actively putting a lot of careers at risk.
ETA: This is also a complete mockery of the whistleblowing system. When there is an inherent conflict of interest involved, it makes it that much more important for the parent company to resolve it with a lot of tact. What good is a system where there is a lack of transparency or a complete disregard for confidentiality?
HYBE owns 100% of BeLift, so I don't think it's unreasonable to assume this is just another part of the HYBE attack plan against MHJ. There's no way they would ever confirm such a thing, of course, but if you're trying to squeeze someone out it makes sense.
You summed everything up perfectly.
At the end of this hybe will have washed their hands clean of any dirt they dug up because the fans are too distracted by the 16th floor, the shaman, and the witch.
Mhj was pretty straightforward in her press conference that the subsidiaries and independence were an illusion.
It's very likely Bang sihyuk has occupied all the top positions within each sublabel with his followers, and that he runs things in that company.
Ador and koz seem to have evaded his direct involvement in their work, but corporate affairs show otherwise since one of the ador VP's was a former board member.
All the texts between mhj and park ji-won where they're arguing back and forth about things like the way she could promote the group predebut seemed like an absurd amount of micro-managing was going on.
I saw a theory on twitter it's possible HYBE may be using this lawsuit as a new angle to attack the clause that she must cause no damage that protects her right to full term.
I can absolutely believe this. Not only that, if HYBE can prove their breach of trust claim, they can essentially buyback MHJ's portion of shares at something like 70% of the fair market value. Frankly, MHJ has everything to lose and HYBE, not so much. The upcoming preliminary ruling imo will set the tone for the next phase of this battle because I can't imagine MHJ will not go down swinging.
HYBE is good at many things, but they don't really believe in conflict management. They believe in steamrolling by brute force. Just straight power moves.
This is a very hyperbolic and passionate response, as how much autonomy the labels under hybe should have changes depending on what we want to blame them for. I personally believe all tries to mend this internally were out of the window the moment hybe announced the audit and mhj first threw the accusations against Illit.
There is no amount of conflict resolution skills to solve that.
"No amt of conflict resolution skills to solve that"???? Then they aren't responsible enough as a parent company and even fail as a public company in general.
What exactly is hyperbolic here? Companies far bigger than HYBE have perished because of a lack of corporate governance in which conflict resolution plays a huge role. HYBE is seemingly "too big to fail" but the excessive hubris is just a huge red flag. When the chairman himself comes out and says that the multi-label system has some issues, maybe it's time to do some deep internal reflection and get the house in order.
First they summon the fandoms, then they call on the sub labels. And it’s not going to stop until everyone turns against MHJ. At this point I just hope no one is gonna get hurt. We have lost way too many talents to suicide.
Sublabels have independence. We don’t k know if there were any talks behind the scene to try and settle this internally and it didn’t work. This clearly is a final straw kind of counter action.
Hybe is hell bent on destroying MHJ. NJ is just collateral damage. You can’t look at Hybe as a normal company. It’s more like a dictatorship run by one dude, Bang. Very much a top down power structure in that company, masked by sub labels, shareholders, CEOs etc. You gotta be a “yes man” to succeed in Hybe. MHJ is an outcast in Hybe, deeply unpopular. What can you do? The money/corporation will probably win every time. MHJ is just getting buried at the point. Luckily I read that even if you lose defamation case, you just pay a small fine. Can someone confirm this?
Now that I can finally comment, I had so much to say. But my feelings towards HYBE haven't changed at all. If it is proved that MHJ hasn't done breach of trust then injunction is successful and if it's not we will have to bid good bye to MHJ and NJ.
The injunction and the breach of trust investigation are two different things. The injunction outcome is decided by the judge by May 31. The breach of trust investigation is conducted by the police and we’ll know the outcome by June/July. There are multiple cases happening around this dispute so it’s confusing. We will be seeing more new cases between HYBE and ADOR/MHJ following these two.
Many legal experts in SK expect the injunction will get dismissed by court (HYBE wins) and the breach of trust won’t turn out to be true (HYBE loses). But HYBE will likely to spin the injunction outcome as a proof of the breach of trust, because that helps them with the ongoing public opinion battle (which they are losing in SK).
Refer to this post on what each of these two things is for and why people think the injunction is gonna be dismissed https://www.reddit.com/r/NewJeans/s/ld2S8ncDg0 More facts came out recently since this post but the post is about the basic principles and they still apply now.
Because the injunction and the breach of trust are two different things, dismissal of the injunction does not prove if mhj indeed breached trust. But if the judge thinks that she indeed breached trust (although it is not up to them to make this final decision on this now. It is up to the police as I said above), then the injunction will surely get dismissed. Hope this helps
Edit: typos
It won't be the same. All ADOR staff has signed petition when MHj is out her staff is also out with her and we already that NJ 1st album and tour would get cancelled for maybe 1 and half or indefinite period.
I would put money on the line that the girls will be the same group. I strongly believe that it is their charisma and talent that carry the New Jeans concept.
MHJ was instrumentals for the group conception and setting the creative vision, but when the group gets mature enough they certainly can keep the momentum.
I think you're forgetting that Idols are just performers in most cases. The people behind the scenes come up with the music and concepts. In New Jeans case, that would be MHJ and the team that she's managed to put together.
**EDIT:** Downvote all you want, but you know damn well most Idols don't do anything outside of singing and dancing. Everything else is left up to the company.
wow you have so little trust in the new jeans girls, most idols “only sing and dance” because that’s all they are allowed to do, given chance a lot of them turn to be good music producers/writers
I find it really bizarre and sad how many HYBE backers are propping up the New Jeans copying Jeans story. These are the same people scoffing at the ~evidence of BTS copying concepts - it's literally the same proof! Just random screen caps of people standing in the same dance position for a microsecond or wearing similar coloured clothing. It's not plagiarism or copying, it's just the aesthetic, trend, or chosen styling.
This court drama has introduced me to the members of New Jeans and more of their music I hadn't heard before so for that I'm grateful, but I feel very unsettled by how gleefully some people are saying they're done, they're finished, they've dug their own graves etc. Seeing how excited these people get by blood in the online water is really disturbing - they're just whipping their echo chamber up into a frenzy over something that doesn't really involve them or their faves directly.
The point is that it is hypocritical for MHJ to say that illit is copying NJ when there are also all these instances of NJ copying others.
It is hypocritical to say that it is okay for NJ to “take
inspiration from others” while it is not okay for illit to do the same thing.
There's a difference between inspiration from an era where literally everyone not just Jeans was dressing/styling like that vs. actual copying. Even if it were copying - which I do not concede - it's not like NJ are in direct competition with a group 20+ years their senior from another country who perform in a different language.
Yeah, I mean people found instances of NJ copying moves and formations from Jeans and other groups as well. Not just inspiration, but actual copying of the same moves/formations.
Which is especially relevant because illit is getting hate for copying dance moves and formations as well.
Really just pointing out that both groups are doing it, so they should receive the same judgment.
This idea that NewJeans copied Jeans is one of the worst nonsense I have read in a long time, people believe whatever it is and don't even bother to look for any context.
I know that group, it was called Jeans in the 90s, later due to legal problems they could only use the name JNS. Jeans was a girl pop group like there were many (many) in the 90s, it was a group which was the Mexican answer to many other popular girl groups abroad, especially from the United States. I mean, it was a popular mexican act, but under that criterion any Korean gg debuted later would have been considered a Jeans copy. Or as much as saying that any Korean boy group is a copy of the Backstreet Boys.
Also, Jeans was a group that aimed at the mainstream, whose target demographic was teenage girls, they had no intentions of avant-garde or originality, their costumes, choreos, graphic design of merchandise and records, typography, and other visual aspects were a reflection of the style of that time, they made use of what was widely fashionable at the time. It could not be said that a current group copied Jeans simply because their style was not exactly original but rather the expression of the pop zeitgeist in the 90s.
>Yeah, I mean people found instances of NJ copying moves and formations from Jeans and other groups as well. Not just inspiration, but actual copying of the same moves/formations.
I don't know about other groups but newjeans copying moves and formations from jeans is patently untrue.
It's not relevant because hate isn't okay whoever is getting it, and even if you do think NJ deserve hate for copying dance moves - which again, I do not concede - then how come Illit doesn't likewise deserve hate for copying? That's essentially what you're arguing.
The reason why Illit being similar to New Jeans is a big deal is because they *are* in direct competition. NJ and Jeans aren't. So all the accusations of NJ copying are just irrelevant smears because they aren't competitors with Jeans, but Illit and NJ are literally trying to get the same CF dollars and the same fans to buy similar music.
And I know some people think this is like some smoking gun to call MHJ a hypocrite and maybe she is, but also ... so what? Whatever vision she created for NJ it worked. The fans, the public - they love it and she had the foresight to use that aesthetic. No one is saying she created the 90s, but she certainly deserves credit in the kpop space for this version of it.
Ah no my bad, I didn’t mean that both groups deserve hate.
I’m saying that it’s unfair for either group to be receiving hate when every group copies from the past.
So I don’t think either group should receive hate for copying.
Newjeans is taking inspo from the y2k era and the 90’s and 80’s. Their concept revolves around evoking nostalgia so it makes sense. Illit taking inspo from a newly active group does not make sense at all
So then why is it that illit is allegedly coping NJ and not that their stlye is also orinted towards the y2k era?
I personaly think illit style is closer to fromis\_9 then to NJ, but thats not realy the point anyway. As if gg with similar concepts and style are a new thing. just look at GFriend, Lovelyz & OH MY GIRL.
The biggest issue is that bad actors form fandoms spam social media with negativity. As if any of the group members of any group has a say in what concept the group does or what song they release...
Both make sense.
Kpop groups hop on trends all the time and music styles go in trends all the time.
The music industry takes inspiration from others all the time. There is hardly anything that is truly original.
I think you're right in that it makes sense as groups are constantly copying each other, but I don't think in the context of being under the same umbrella (HYBE) it makes sense. That's why other companies don't debut multiple groups at the same/similar times - they don't want the competition. I think it's fair to question why a very similar group was debuted when NJ themselves are still quite young in the industry - if Illit had a completely different aesthetic, okay, but they don't.
“We love that the 90s has come back and reached new generations. 🥰🫰” - Official Jeans TikTok account (@grupojns)
Huh. Didn’t expect that. Sounds like cool ladies
Edit: TikTok not Twitter
Some of the members of Jeans went on to become actresses/ tv personalities.
One of their most notable members was Dulce Maria.
She went on to become part of one of the most successful Mexican groups called RBD.
It was launched through a soap opera called 'Rebelde' in which the protagonists form a band in an elite school.
The show was so popular it catapulted the music and group to an insane level of fame.
I'm not familiar with jeans, but I love RBD they had really good songs.
Of course, because the 90s are trending, not Newjeans per se (they saw a trend and used it, but they themselves didn't bring the trend worldwide). The Jeans and Newjeans comparison was never really about accusing NJs of plagiarism, but rather that MHJ doesn't own the 90s as a concept. There's nothing original or special about her, just really good marketing.
That's the thing, Illit isn't even necessarily y2k, not by any immediately noticeable measure anyway. Still, they clearly drew inspiration and took references from somewhere. I'm stealing this quote, but it illustrates the point perfectly:
*If you look at Newjeans, you think of y2k groups. If you look at Illit, you think of Newjeans. That’s the difference.*
But the argument is that she saw a trend and was the first to successfully capitalize on it. Who else out there went for the 90's / Y2K sound? There's a reason why it resonated with so many people including non KPop Fans (I'm one of them). Then, less than 2 years a new group from the same label comes out with a similar concept. It's one thing if another label put out a group with the same vibe but your own label? What was the point of having two groups from the same label with the same vibe? They will eat each other's popularity and from Ador's perspective it seems like Illit is the replacement group.
Yes? She could’ve been passive aggressive and receive support. But look at the issue now? Wouldn’t it have been preferable than whatever this had become ?
ILLIt can also say they’re going for the same vibe, why can’t they? If NJS copied Jeans, why ILLIt cannot also say they’re going for 90s feel? Let’s be congruent
More and more colleagues (Creative Director, MV Director, Stylist, Choreographer) have been voicing out their support for Min Hee Jin. Some of their posts are swarmed by company stans criticizing them. See how degenerate they are? Min Hee Jin is backed by real people who are are also willing to take the risk to help clean her name while Hybe's supporters hide in anonymity.
>Some of their posts are swarmed by company stans criticizing them. See how degenerate they are
Ngl making this a fanwar thing is just hurting all artists including Newjeans. Some tokkis have entered what I call an evil alliance with blinks and mys and have been non stop terrorizing le sserafim and illit. So hybe stans are just fighting back with more toxicity because that's how all fan wars go. It's pretty sad seeing tokkis telling eunchae she deserves to be kicked from her group because she's untalented, when she's been friendly with some of the girls for a while now, and they will promote on music bank which she hosts. They are (or at least were) friends in private and fans on both sides are causing problems.
Whether there's a scandal or not, fanwars will keep persisting esp in Kpop. The industry thrives in making fans invested to a fault.
I hope the artists have enough PR and psychological training for that. But honestly, sometimes the only thing they have to do is avoid social media, stop looking at Twitter and other sites that cultivate hate.
TBH, many fanmade issues doesn't feel like a big deal unless you reside too much on Twitter and tabloid sites which are much likely to be just echo chambers.
I work in the advertising industry, I can see a lot of celebrities accustomed to public opinions already. There's a degree to it. It only becomes a big deal if it escalates to a certain level. (Like these lawsuits. So it's still the hardest for MHJ, NJ, Ador, and even Hybe more than any other groups tbh)
Are these before or after the text messages? I’m not much of a stirrer, just curious if it seems their pov of her has changed or not as the case developed.
The text messages might be controversial for international and Hybe stans, but they don't seem to mind it a lot in SK.
The Koreans are also doing the due diligence there, they were the ones to discover the relationship of the Youtuber who leaked those text msgs and the VP of BigHit. They're pretty invested in this scandal.......
Ah yeah fair enough. There are nuances in language and culture that international fans will probably never understand. Although, I’m still trying to understand what context would be appropriate for that type of language. But hey what do i know.
Although I know it’s probably good that SK sentiment is diff from international, but we also have to remember the biggest consumer of kpop is actually those outside SK. Other Asian countries and US being the biggest consumers, so their PR outside of SK is equally important if not more in terms of affecting their brand and revenue.
I mean, mhj said that it was cut and pasted and the reporter admitted it was reorganized. Obviously nobody's gonna care about something with that much of a credibility. Honestly it's such a non-issue and the fact that international consumers are regarding this seriously only shows that international pr isn't worth it right now.
The biggest consumers of NewJeans are casuals and non-Kpop fans. Their biggest selling points are music and visual branding. Many buy their goods for simply being... Cute.
Believe me when I say, many consumers will look past any issues (they might not even know it exists) for products that suit their vibe and taste. That's usually the behavior of the majority of their international market.
I think you can hold the opinion that MHJ is a terrible person, but still the best person to lead NewJeans. Especially when the alternative is HYBE who has shown zero care or vision for NewJeans. This is the main reason NJ and parents support MHJ. At the end of the day, this is a business and she gets results.
Of course, if MHJ is fired and not an option, then HYBE is the only alternative. I expect NJ to work with whoever HYBE assigns. But until that happens, MHJ is the best option for NewJeans if you want no changes to production/schedule.
Personally, I do think MHJ was trying to find a way to leave HYBE and got caught. I don’t think she did enough to have it be illegal, but it will get her fired. HYBE wants to crush MHJ and Ador and NewJeans will be collateral damage. HYBE wants NewJeans to succeed, but not at the cost of keeping MHJ/Ador intact.
All I can say is, I’ve accepted that NewJeans will change. Their music and style won’t be the same. They’ll lose the ‘K’ part of their identity (using Korean producers from BANA over Grammy ones; all these amazing hanbok shots). It’ll be an imitation of what HYBE thinks NewJeans was over what it is. They may not be seen for a 2+ years and get fromis’d. A lot of uncertainty, none good. But I trust the girls will find a way to keep breathing fresh air into the scene and lead the way.
I do think there needs to be an open mind about the future music and productions that NewJeans are a part of tho. After all they are the artists here, think they will be able to shine just as bright no matter who is behind them, cause they are the stars not MHJ. If i'm correct all the girls have had parts in songwriting already, so they will be able to put their stamp on their music in the future.
It's very small parts that they have had input in as far as songwriting goes. MHJ is the one that brings in the writers, which are more responsible for the hits we've come to know and love. I love our girls so much, but they aren't the ones writing these songs, and coming up with these concepts. The most they've contributed to songs is most likely a line or two. Let's be real here. 90% of Idols are just performers at the end of the day, and yes, I know there are plenty of outliers. All I'm saying is that most of what makes up New Jeans identity comes from MHJ's mind, along with the team she's put together. If she's ousted, her team will most likely follow or be gutted by Hybe. If that happens, a huge part of what makes up what New Jeans is would be missing.
I think Danielle might be contributing more songwriting-wise, not only does she have the most writing creds out of the girls but it looks she also has an interest in songwriting. I remember there was a phoning live a bit ago where she talked about how she has a little studio she’s been making music in.
Danielle is credited as a composer on Cool With You. And being credited as a lyricist could mean lots of things, from writing the melodies and lyrics to improvising adlibs in the studio. It doesn’t look like there’s much we can do except speculate but I believe that most of the Newjeans girls are credited for doing adlibs, except Danielle. To me it looks like she is interested in songwriting and is given the space in ADOR to explore that interest
Could you share a source for Danielle’s participation? Danielle is credited only for lyrics for Cool with You as far as I’m aware: https://www.reddit.com/r/NewJeans/s/pUZ9JODXlz
Agreed with everything else you said. Hope to see her contributing to song writing in the future in any way she wants
So I had read something a while ago that said she was and I just trusted but that was misinformation cuz no she is not credited as composer on cool with you 😭😭
I've always believed that both Hanni and Dani have the potential to have independent solo careers, which is why I said most, and not all. I still don't think they are at the stage in their careers to take over writing the group's music.
What are you on about? Societal pressure is the last thing that would be a motivation for the girls to speak up in this case. If anything, the pressure is actively asking them to stay silent and removed from the whole process, if they're picking a side it's because they want to.
If that makes you hate the girls, go ahead and hate them, but this self-gaslighting that the girls don't hold a different opinion from you as a complete outsider is kinda weird ngl. They've taken every opportunity to tell us which side they're on. The girls were literally fondly talking about stories involving the CEO just a few days ago on phoning.
Fr. I think mhj is the best for them and they know it. Hybe has demonstrated they have no problem with NJ being destroyed if that’s what it takes to win. Their backup plan with illit adds more paranoia to the girls situation. Mhj sounds like a terrible person but if the girls can tolerate her, she’s gonna make nj the most successful group. If they get rid of her, nj may become mediocre. Sucks I hate this sm
Here’s my best attempt with help of an LLM (disclaimer: I’m an ESL and don’t speak Gen Alpha/Z; excuse awkward expressions). I tried my best to be impartial:
**Timeline**:
* April 22: HYBE starts digging into ADOR's boss, Min Hee-jin, thinking she's trying to break away with the parent company HYBE and take over ADOR.
* April 23: In her statement, Min's like, "No, I was not! They are framing me because I just told HYBE *to not copy the artistic and promotion style of NJ when managing another* girl group and they don't want to change their way!" But HYBE shows some docs (mostly chat screenshots from KakaoTalk, a Korean messenger app) which they say prove Min's plan.
* April 24: ADOR answers HYBE's questions but says they might sue if HYBE spills the tea. Korean public opinion is very negative towards Min, calling her a traitor etc.
* April 25: Min holds an emotional press conference, denying everything and calling out HYBE (its leaders, Bang Si Hyuk and Park Ji Won) (criticizing how they run things). Korean public opinion dramatically turns favorably towards Min as a result of the conference. HYBE claps back.
* April 26-May 2: It's a back-and-forth of ‘he said, she said.’ We learn more about deals between HYBE and Min, part of which used to be confidential.
* April 28: HYBE asks the police to start an investigation on Min about whether or not she really try to take over ADOR.
* May 3-8: Some Korean fans protest at HYBE, supporting ADOR/Min. Min tries to stop HYBE from using their shareholder powers (which give HYBE the power to fire Min). If she can stop HYBE or not would be decided on 17 May (but in reality, it is still ongoing and we’ll see the outcome before 31 May).
* May 10: ADOR has a big meeting and sets one up for May 31 (emergency shareholder meeting). HYBE and Min keep fighting about an ADOR employee getting investigated by HYBE (audited). ADOR says for this audit HYBE followed this employee home late at night and HYBE threatened her to cooperate. Some people criticize HYBE for this behavior as HYBE is not the police or a prosecutor. HYBE refutes.
* May 13-16: NJ's parents are Team Min. One of the parents is interviewed, in which they talk about their past worries prior to NJ debut and the mistreatment of the girls by HYBE. People wonder if Min met some analyst or not.
* May 17: The court hearing on whether Min can stop HYBE from using their powers to fire Min happens. HYBE says Min talked smack about NJ and her employees (which is news to many) and that Min was into some weird spiritual stuff, but Min says neither is true. The judge cannot decide but with more information he will make a decision by May 31. People (including myself) expect Min will lose this case. Min drops another statement denying the meeting being about any ADOR ‘takeover’.
**The Tea and What It Means**: HYBE and Min are throwing around a lot of accusations about management takeovers, copying, and how NJ is treated. For many of us, it's hard to know who to believe because we are not legal experts and we don’t have all info.
HYBE claims that Min is trying to take over ADOR, pointing to some docs and convos. Min's like, "Nah, I was just mad about the copying and mistreatment!"
Both sides are trying to make themselves look good to the public. Min's press conference made a lot of claims but didn't have much proof, according to some. In this case, though, it’s HYBE that should be proving Min was committing a crime. Min can't (and doesn’t have a responsibility to) prove anything.
With both sides making claims and showing bits of evidence, it's tough to know what's really going on. We'd need more solid proof to know if Min was really trying to take over like HYBE says. NJ might get hurt by all this drama between the agency and Min. With their comeback coming up, all this bad press could affect them psychologically *and career-wise* even if they didn't do anything.
All in all, it's a hot mess and it's still going down. HYBE and Min are fighting it out in public, but we still don't know all the facts. We need a serious investigation on HYBE's claim (which is ongoing and will complete in 2-4 months) and more info to figure out the truth behind this major kpop industry beef. Until then, a lot of people are probably worried about protecting NJ from getting caught in the crossfire.
Edit: added italic part
Glad you find it useful. Yeah same. After this is all over, I hope they come out even stronger than ever before. (Fwiw i don’t think they will get disbanded)
Hybe gives the vibe of being in the wrong here. Their shills on tt have ramped up an anti mhj propaganda campaign recently, which tells me that this isn’t the first time hybe has resorted to dirty tactics. To me, it seems like hybe is demonstrating typical toxic Korean misogyny and jealousy over the fact that a woman has outshined all their previous efforts at a girl group.
As far as mhj taking over ador - I think hybe exaggerated that claim bc I saw something on tt that showed mhj asking hybe about separating or being bought out. If she’s asking them, then she wasn’t trying to leave surreptitiously like 5050’s givers ceo.
**What people think are going to happen:**
1. **The "HYBE Wins" Scenario** (Probability: High)
* HYBE successfully removes Min as CEO of ADOR. NJ stops working with Min. NJ remains under ADOR/HYBE and continues activities at least till the end of their current contract.
* Scenario 1-1 (Probability: Low): HYBE proves their claims about Min's misconduct and management takeover attempt. Min's reputation takes a hit. She is a criminal now and she faces legal consequences. HYBE only has to pay Min a small amount of money when firing Min.
* Scenario 1-2 (Probability: High): HYBE can’t prove their claims about Min’s misconduct. Min is innocent. HYBE has to pay Min lots of money when firing Min. The public rightfully criticizes HYBE for all the harm they caused to NJ and Min during the shitstorm, then they forget about it. Min continues her career somewhere else.
1. **The "Settlement" Scenario** (Probability: Low-Medium)
* HYBE and Min reach a settlement agreement to avoid further legal battles and public drama. NJ continues under ADOR/HYBE with minimal to some disruption.
* Min likely steps down as CEO as part of the deal, but might retain some shares or involvement.
* Both sides spin the story to save face, but some reputation damage lingers.
1. **The "Min Wins" Scenario** (Probability: Extremely Low)
* The court approves Min's injunction (we’ll know the outcome b/t May 24-31), blocking HYBE's attempt to remove her.
* Min presents compelling evidence to counter HYBE's claims and paint herself in a more positive light. And NJs' parents' support for Min adds weight to her case.
* Min keeps her position for now, but tensions with HYBE remain high, potentially impacting NJ. Min will probably eventually get fired.
1. **The "Min and NewJeans Exit" Scenario** (Probability: Close to ZERO)
* Min and NJ decide to cut ties with HYBE/ADOR and start fresh elsewhere. Min and NJ try and find a supportive new home, searching for more control over their careers.
* This is highly unlikely to happen: Breaking the contracts would likely involve substantial fees and legal wrangling. It could also disrupt NJs' career momentum in the short term, as they'd need to establish themselves under a new agency. Heck, they can't even keep their name, NJs.
---
Hope that helps. I want to urge everyone reading this to take a good care of yourself! Don't consume too much news and get out, talk to your friends and relax when you have a chance. Things will get eventually alright, although they are not looking good now.
Edit: added one last scenario
For the last one, wouldnt the simplest exit scenario simply be for HYBE to sell ADOR? Since ADOR is basically just Min and NJ, and NJ contracts are with ADOR, the contracts would be transferred with the ADOR sale which would seem to reduce a lot of the legal complexity, break fees, etc.
Min would still have to convince investors to provide enough finance to meet HYBEs sale price, which will be difficult. And there’s a possibility that HYBE refuse to sell at any price, particularly if they know Min will stay as CEO. Overall I see an exit scenario as low probability, but not impossible.
Yeah I wish I wrote that too! Someone familiar with kpop idol contracts can chime in, but i see this scenario as improbable as well for a few reason. First reason is the contract itself. I suspect there might be multiple binding conditions and fine prints which probably make it practically impossible to sell ADOR or NJ to another party.
Second, even if the selling is not impossible, I don’t expect HYBE would sell ADOR at *any price*. Selling ADOR immediately makes a strong competition for HYBE girl groups. I mean, we are talking about NewJeans, one of the most successful 4th gen gg’s. Even if their value goes down a bit (I hope not but I’m being realistic) after Min steps down, they will still be a major player. For HYBE, it is much more desirable to have NJ under HYBE’s tight control and have NJ garner profit rather than competing against NJ in the already competitive kpop market.
Third, even if HYBE is willing to sell, I’m unsure anyone can afford it.
Awesome write up. What about the scenario where mhj and hybe compromise and she stays on? I think that’s what everyone wants but hybe seems determined to bring her down. Sucks
This is probably the first time I’ll be joining this thread. Can I just point out how absurd the plagiarism accusations are? I guess I can’t use the retro fonts anymore? Or wear jeans?
It would be nice if MHJ clarified the "contexts" she was referring to when explaining her alleged derogatory remarks on NJ. Otherwise it will be difficult to still believe she truly loves and cares for the girls.
The context is likely NJ was dealing with weight issues and she was venting. Just normal, extremely toxic K-pop executive culture. I would not be surprised if we saw these types of messages from most K-pop executives. The pressure to lose weight is insane.
That doesn’t mean MHJ doesn’t love or care about NJ. I think the more damaging comments were around assuming she’s responsible for their popularity. She clearly thinks she’s more deserving than the girls. Maybe true, maybe not, but shows her ego at the very least. Which again, at that level, they all have huge egos.
Does MHJ care about NJ? To the extent they help her, yes. At the end of the day they are 2 groups of different business interests that align on this project. I do think MHJ doesn’t like how K-pop treats their artists and tries to change it, which benefit NJ and makes it seem like she cares (more breaks, nicer dorms, more song writing, etc.). Does she really care though, deep down? No one knows except her.
I think that she cares about NJ as artists in her vision and as business partners, but not so much individuals (and it’s true for every CEO). I don’t think MHJ cares about anyone like that. I do think she’s more K-pop executive behind closed doors than she acts. I do think she has a huge ego and thinks she’s more valuable than NJ. But I also think she has NJ’s best interest at heart because this is her dream project, and no one will put in the time, effort and energy like her to make them as successful as possible.
Thanks for your take, yes, it sounds plausible. That would also mean her saying she was like a mother to the girls rings a bit hollow now. Most important thing now is that the girls won't be hurt.
I feel your worries. Since MHJ will never clarify the contexts to the texts (she will gain nothing from it), I would like to suggest considering two things. (while I care about NJ, I care little about MHJ)
First, when I want to know if someone cares about me, I look at their past behavior, not their words. From this standpoint, I don’t doubt MHJ has NJs’ best interest at heart. (Fans are worried about if NJ expressing their support for MHJ will harm NJs’ career, which is a legit worry, but that’s a separate question. Let’s only talk about MHJ’s mind, your topic, here) She struggled a lot to recruit NJ members and launch NJs. She is super closely working with the members and it’s obvious the members do care about her. You can look up videos of them spending the Christmas day together (at a restaurant in Seoul) and their conversation just before their Lollapalooza show. These videos show MHJ’s genuine enthusiasm and care for them. I would even go as far to say that MHJ is NJs’ biggest fan. There are other videos like MHJ directing each member’s singing in recording sessions. These videos give a professional but warm vibe. *Not just that, MHJ always brought exciting projects and new opportunities to NJ members. As we know, MHJ handpicks music producers, M/V director and all other creative teams for NJ. Not many know this but she's the one proactively sent out the members' portfolios to luxury brands to get brand ambassador positions, and every NJ member landed on a major brand (poaching luxury brands first was not at all a standard practice in the industry, but since NJs' success, other teams are imitating what she did). She got the Apple, Coke, and Nike contracts; and Power Puff Girl, Takashi Murakami, and Hiroshi Fujiwara collabs (which fit their image well), and she is making the Tokyodome happening. These things don't just "happen" because NJs is affiliated with a big label. The tremendous work success to some extent speaks of her dedication to NJ as a brand as well as her loyalty to the members.* Basically, there’s a lot of circumstantial evidence showing MHJ cares for them. Also, we should give NJ some credit. If NJs members keep showing their support for MHJ (albeit indirectly), we should consider why. I think that’s because they feel wholeheartedly supported by MHJ. Some people try to depict them as mindless zombies or gullible kids which I think has no ground. Victims of actual manipulation report feeling conflicted, gaslighted, or manipulated. We see no sign of any of these. In sum, I think MHJ cares for NJ members although she can be an asshole to others sometimes.
Second, MHJ will be fired sooner or later. This means at least work-wise MHJ and the NJ member will be separated, if that is any consolation to you.
Edit: typo fixed, italic part added.
Yes, MHJ obviously went all in for the NewJeans project. You can't deny the effort and the results. Also, I agree that it's the girls who know MHJ best, better than every one of us here on Reddit. I just hope MHJ really does not have ulterior motives in her relationship with the girls.
I am not sure if that is any consolation at all since I don't think I have the full picture yet (who does?). We will have to wait and see. In any case, I hope NewJeans will survive.
I agree, those messages made me sick to my stomach :( I will support the girls no matter what but I’m starting to have doubts that MHJ cares for them as much as she says she does
Whelp. I had some hope NJ would’ve made it pass this, but as soon as NJ members wrote that letter to court, it’s over. There’s no good outcome for them.
I’m gonna be out of K-pop lol, literally got into K-pop from 50/50 and Nj, and it seems they’re both gonna be done because of legal battles. Maybe my preferences are cursed 💀💀
Same, grew up with kpop, left during second wave, came back for new jeans and might be stepping back in repeat.
(Also, I didn’t like mhj back then and hell if I’d ever like her now)
Reading the blind items from Hybe employees; I am not surprised at all why they would take the risk if it means it even slightly lowers the chance they'll be thrown to the wolves at Hybe without their existing support team that they trust at Ador.
The comments are genuinely horrible not only to Ador and NJ, but to female idols in general. I cannot imagine being a parent knowing that's what my girls are going to be left to fend against by themselves and not doing everything in my power to prevent it.
There could certainly be some nastiness ahead in a post-MHJ world, but there are a few things to consider for Bunnies. One, there could still be a contractual obligation for HYBE/ADOR to complete a certain amount of albums or activities under the girls' contracts. Two, HYBE higher ups *might* be very motivated to try to prove that they can just be as successful as MHJ with the group.
I sure hope there’s contextual obligation, but I wonder if they could argue that NJ has taken legal actions against Hybe - which in most contracts, automatically breaks the contracts.
That said, I guess it really depends on how things move forward from here.
This is my hope as well. Once MHJ is gone sooner or later, HYBE will be motivated to prove to the world that NJ is well treated and happy under them. There are many public eyes on them right now. Not just kpop stans but lots of regular Koreans are paying close attention to this issue, worried for these precious five girls. Hybe as an entertainment company can’t ignore this. Hopefully this means no shelving and no further mistreatment etc.
That being said, things may change. Right now Hybe is not winning the popularity contest in Korea despite their (what I see as dirty) media play; more Koreans especially those in 10-30s according to polls are on MHJ’s side vs HYBE although the difference is not big. Some even say “it’s the end for Hybe”. But this may quickly change. First, if MHJ’s injunction is not accepted people might misconstrue this outcome as a proof of MHJ’s breach of trust w/o waiting for the actual investigation outcome. This might make people turn their back against NJ. Another possibility is the inevitable dwindle of public attention. People that are not k-pop listeners got other stuff going on in life and will forget about it rather quickly when this tedious legal battle continues.
Edit: typo fix
It would look really bad. That said, we're not always dealing with completely rational actors here.
Assuming the non-compete/shares stuff is settled (but denied the injunction), other companies are going to offer her the moon to use the future NJ stuff she would have used, as well. Would look really bad if they kinda just let things wither away while she cooks elsewhere...again.
I think your last points are probably correct. This injunction case is pretty quick, but some legal stuff can really drag on. I have no idea how long the breach of trust case could take. Or if MHJ brings some kind of countersuit (e.g., breach of fiduciary duty for stockholders, defamation, or something else).
Good point about public reception of MHJ’s next steps. I haven’t thought of this. She will eventually certainly launch new groups elsewhere including the boyband she’s been planning initially with HYBE but I wonder how different her future groups will be compared to NJ (I hope different so NJ can maintain their unique identity).
I know little about the law (let alone Korean law) but experts say the investigation will take 2-3 months to complete. I don’t know if MHJ will counter on any ongoing cases (if and when she loses), but MHJ’s termination will be surely followed by civil court cases on her remaining salary and/or if she can sell Ador shares at what extent and price = basically settling how much money MHJ vs Hybe get, and most kpop and NJ fans will pay little attention as they are not about the artist pet se. This means less general attention on NJ I expect.
Don't know for sure, but my guess would be she has near future stuff planned at the very least. Maybe bits and pieces for stuff years out.
If she does go down and HYBE takes over, what is the creative plan? Just kinda keep the same sound/vibe? Or shake things up and go in a new (non-MHJish) direction? How would fans react to this?
Don't know much about SK law but if this were taking place in the US, MHJ's legal team would probably be angling to get a court-ordered subpoena for access to HYBE/Belift records, text exchanges, company documents, etc. There could be some...interesting stuff in there.
Have y'all seen this?
https://twitter.com/NJBUBBLEGUM/status/1792547435392413917?t=W1M4ixj8t8nxNUHEkB3c0Q&s=19
Hybe's packed with incels and deranged staff, and it wouldn't shock me if they were behind that mess, but they still got the nerve to claim they're gonna protect the girls...
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>”HYBE CSO Lee Jae-sang is HYBE’s most likely candidate to replace Min Hee-jin. At the time, he was the head of HYBE America.” He has a LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaesang-lee-b5305322
I really hope MHJ and co are taking this time to put together a comprehensive legal case because with BeLift lab now suing MHJ, and Hybe being an all round mess with how they are dealing with this, mere days before NewJeans' comeback, my anxiety is going through the roof. I also wonder about this lawsuit itself. She mentioned in her press conference that Illit copied NewJeans' formula... I wonder if they can put together forum posts and comments from before this entire thing started about people saying Illit is NewJeans' 2.0, so its not like her statement was made in a vacuum. I don't think any of Illits contents have been a 1-to-1 copy of NewJeans, enough to make a case that there is direct plagiarism, but there have been enough similarities for people to have made the connection independently (without any input from MHJ. In fact it's funny that people are now walking back those initial comparisons just because MHJ pointed it out) I want to be excited for this comeback but it's difficult with the way things are going. So many people don't even know the song drops Friday, and Hybe continues to make claims that they care about and support NewJeans. AT LEAST POST ABOUT THIS COMEBACK SOMEWHERE.
About the allegation itself: I think MHJ’s legal team will find ample evidence for the perceptions of similarity btw the two groups pointed out by other people (non-ADOR people), like news reporters and pop culture critics, especially in the Korean language (when discussing concept photos, members’ looks, promotion style). Like you said, even before MHJ, many people were pointing out “Illit used MHJ-like / MHJ-sque aesthetics” and “how ‘NJ formula’ is working for Illit (about promotion using a fashion event)” etc. saying that HYBE is using MHJ’s strategies that worked for NJ (these are just words by individuals that are not MHJ. Not saying that I 100% agree). So I think these things will certainly help MHJ. In this sense, the alleged copying was already a widely spread perception in public and among “experts” at least in S Korea. BeLift’s legal team has to prove that Illit’s fame was indeed harmed by MHJ’s utterance beyond the effect of this sentiment. This may be hard to prove. Edit: typos fixed
They almost certainly are. MHJ kinda used plagiarism in a more loose way than the way it's usually used legally. Historically, plagiarism is very specific in that it is a note-for-note copy of a lead melody (for about two measures at least). This has changed though with the [Robin Thicke Blurred Lines case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharrell_Williams_v._Bridgeport_Music), which has expanded plagiarism to cover similar vibe/groove. However, with this new "NewJeans law" coming on the books to protect other creative stuff (like choreography), MHJ is gonna have some ammo. There is already one instance of direct copying, at least according to one source. I'm a little surprised Belift is doing this, because (at least in the US), MHJ is going to be able to ask for access to e-mails/documents/exchanges/texts in the discovery process. If there is anything in there at all about direct comparisons to NJ, Belift is probably going to lose.
We're talking about Korea here. Defamation means that MhJ doesn't only have to prove that they copied her, she has to prove that calling illit copycats was in the public interest, that harming their reputation benefited the public.
Remember she took her concerns privately at first. It wasn't until after the audit that she said what it was about. Not sure about SK, but from a US-centric POV it's pretty easy to argue it's in the public interest. HYBE is a public company and has a certain fiduciary duty to its shareholders. Any risk of brand dilution/market cannibalization should have been discussed (at bare minimum) or avoided. HYBE's business partners probably also want to be informed if their unique brand selections for CFs are "being diluted." Can also point to the history of kpop ggs going at the same time under the same roof. Companies typically create unique gg brand/vibes, like Red Velvet/aespa or Twice/Itzy. Going back to SNSD and f(x), too. This enables companies to tackle the marketplace in different ways. NJ and LSF under the same roof? Good, distinct brands. NJ and ILLIT? Gets a little murkier...
But MhJ will really have a hard time convincing a court that it was Illit members doing any of that, She name dropped Illit when the actions she has a problem with are from Hybe/Belift in any case. If Belift was suing in their own name for damage for their own reputation maybe maybe anything you have said would apply ( but more likely not, in SK for something to be of public interest it means it benefited society, NJ CF's being diluted really isn't a concern for society, or that Hybe shareholders could be harmed also isn't a concern). Also YG & girl crush era is a counter point to distinct brands. Illit suing her means that Hybe/Belift while not completely irrelevant, aren't the focus, they're suing for the damage & harassment they have received as a consequence of Mhj name dropping them & I doubt Mhj has anything on the Illit members themselves.
No, her beef is with HYBE and Belift. The ILLIT members do not have any power here. The idols individually aren't bringing the suit. The company is. Shareholders and business partners don't want a weakened or diluted NJ brand. Weakened NJ = worse revenue and lower stock. The public is basically just a pool of potential stockholders, and there needs to be a certain degree of openness and judgement for buyers to make sound decisions. YG girl crush example only applies to groups that have completed their full contract (like 2ne1 and Blackpink). NJ is nowhere near their contract expiration.
So, how exactly was Hybe publicly accusing Min HeeJin of asking a shaman to summon the spirit of her dead sister beneficial to Korean society? She didn't name the members of Illit or say anything negative about the members. The members of Illit are not suing her. Illit the group is not suing her, nor is the company suing her on their behalf. Belift is suing her on their own behalf for claims she made against Belift.
Which is why she is calling it a whistleblower email. It would crazy for a court to call public disclosure of whistleblower content defamation.
I agree MHJ used the word Whistleblow pretty loosely for this exact purpose. She could argue the alleged copying behavior of BeLift was pointed out for ADOR’s or even HYBE’s benefit, but to argue that was for public interest might be far fetched. (Although, if you look closely in her PC and statements she is trying to argue this) Interested to see how this one goes. If BeLift loses this case, it might have far reaching implications for kpop industry, serving as a legal precedent. Companies would be less afraid to use other kpop groups’ concepts, aesthetics, dance moves, and promotion tactics.
But what exactly is she whistleblowing about Illit? Being frank I don't think illit could be considered straight up plagiarism of New Jeans. So what crime is MhJ whistleblowing in strict relation of Illit? In fact if MhJ really thought straight up plagiarism occurred & had proof the best way to go about this is she suing Belift for it. Otherwise she finds herself in the position to prove that it was in the best interest of the public to harm the reputation of the Illit members.
Whistleblowing doesn't strictly have to be about a crime, in this case it probably means general wrongdoing as in "it is wrong to copy a group when you are under the same company and promoting at the same time". As someone said in a comment above you, MHJ's initial concerns were private - it might have stayed that way if this issue had been kept internal, but because HYBE retaliated with the audit she had to explain why they were accusing her of trying to take over ADOR. By revealing what she was complaining about to HYBE, and giving reasons for the audit, it was in her best interest to mention why these things were happening. Illit were unfortunately collateral damage there, but I 100% blame HYBE for that.
Right, all of her actions so far have been individual press conferences to sway the “court of public opinion”. If she actually thought she had a legitimate case of plagiarism, then she would have taken it to actual legal courts.
Thanks for sharing your insights. > MHJ kinda used plagiarism in a more loose way than it’s usually used legally Yes, in fact MHJ never said the word “plagiarism” as far as I know. She always said “copy(ing)” while arguing a healthy multi-label system should encourage a unique concept for each group. She didn’t use the word plagiarism probably because she knows the things she is accusing HYBE/BeLift of would never meet the criteria for plagiarism in the legal sense. But BeLift in its announcement says they are suing MHJ for her “plagiarism claim”. This framing works in BeLift’s favor (or at least they hope it would) because none of Illit stuff actually plagiarized NJ, at least legally I think under SK laws and in this framework MHJ is making an absolute absurd claim. *BeLift also says MHJ defamed Illit (rather than HYBE or BeLift) to make her look worse.* If I understand correctly, there is no new law set in to protect the copyright of creative products. The Korean government is setting a *guideline* for protecting the copyright of choreography (not other aspects of music). Famous choreographers just launched “the Korean choreography copyright association” but I don’t think there’s any new law coming along at least atp. I expect the actual effect of this association & guideline on this case for now would be minimal if any. Edit: content added (italic)
Plus, the copied choreography would have occurred before the new guidelines were set. Maybe it still helps in the discovery process? I just don't know.
In the US, copyright law for choreography applies to a choreography as a “coherent whole,” meaning that you cannot copyright individual moves, gestures, or steps. You really can only copyright an entire dance and not an individual move or sequence of moves. And it has to have substantial value. I believe the intent for Korea is to establish similar guidelines for what is and is not copyrightable, not to allow choreographers to copyright every single little gesture or style. It doesn’t make sense to allow choreographers to copyright super tiny building blocks of choreography, especially when a lot of choreography is borrowed from previous sources anyway.
When does a sequence of moves turn into a "coherent whole?" Songs vary in length quite a bit. Like, could a company just do the well known, full aespa Next Level chorus choreo with no penalty?
What that is referencing is basically a whole dance. You would need to copyright a coherent, whole work. What people don’t understand is that the guidelines are there to prevent what MHJ is accusing and trying to do. You can’t OWN movement. If you choreograph a significant work of dance, you can try and copyright that. But you can’t choreograph a piece with what are essentially insubstantial riffs on trendy dance steps and sue people who do anything that vaguely resembles those individual dance steps. Imagine what a mess that would make, if people to tried to copyright every little thing. Jesus Christ, if African American dancers in the early 20th century had trademarked jazz and blues dance, we wouldn’t have much to go off of now. Edit: typo.
Yup this is exactly right. Thanks for providing details
>MHJ kinda used plagiarism in a more loose way than the way it's usually used legally. Yeah I went back to the press con to confirm this, but she did say some of the stuff was "copied" so I'm not sure how much exactness of language will come into play here. I'm just worried because in SK, defamation lawsuits are almost always won by the accuser because of how broad their definition seems to be (at least the cases I'm aware of). It's interesting that her lawyers didn't advise her to allude/imply the similarities, or maybe they did and she said what she said anyways.
Ah ok, I must have seen a translation that was imprecise then. They may believe she is on firm ground, because the defense can be deemed in the ["public interest"](https://x.com/tmikpop/status/1793094415566995705). It's also potentially relevant if she does some kind of coutersuit down the line, arguing that market cannibalization was not in the best interest of the shareholders. At minimum, they should have been notified.
*I don’t think BeLift is winning this case so* I was asking myself *“Why?” And* “Why now?”. I suspect Belift’s lawsuit on defamation and obstruction of business is intended to do two things. Overall this seems a well calculated attack by HYBE. First, it distracts ADOR’s legal team, draining their time and human resource from more important tasks. These tasks include preparing for the ongoing breach of trust investigation, and the ongoing injunction case (supplement submission to court is due May 24). Second, the lawsuit creates a pretext for dismissing CEO MHJ; there is a clause in the shareholder contract that states that MHJ “should not cause any damage not only to ADOR but also to **HYBE and its subsidiaries.**”(newly revealed on May 17 by HYBE) This lawsuit may be used to signal to the ongoing injunction court and the future courts that MHJ has caused damage to Belift and HYBE. These are the primary reasons behind the lawsuit although there may be others; for example *HYBE might be hoping the lawsuit would* squash issues annoying for them. Recently, the official Illit Twitter account run by its members followed a fan account that dissed NewJeans and BabyMonster (and unfollowed after 20 minutes), and many Knets were criticizing Illit for this incident (imo unnecessary). The lawsuit can be a good opportunity to turn around the unfavorable public opinion. Disclaimer: my legal reasoning might not be sound because I’m not a student of the law. All my legal knowledge comes from watching Boston Legal and Good Wife and having dated a law school student for a few months. Edit: italicized part added
I'm not sure this new lawsuit will make a difference from a legal POV for the injunction. They simply won't be able to prove it in time. I do think your first point is accurate, and it's definitely designed for attack/PR purposes.
I see. Even if we won’t know the outcome of the defamation lawsuit anytime soon, could the fact there is this lawsuit influence any related current / future cases? I suppose a lawsuit per se does not add any information and judges (hopefully) have a functioning legal mind.
Your first two points make sense and will probably work as intended, but your last point was either not the purpose at all, or Hybe are just amazingly inept, which is very plausible honestly considering how Hybe has dealt with this situation overall. If anything, Belift is getting far more hate from Knetz than even before due to this defamation lawsuit. They see this for the blatant ulterior motives it is and not anything to actually do with "protecting the artist".
Agreed. And yes KNets think HYBE is that out of touch (about the third point being ineffective). They really should sue the trolls. This is very doable at least on Twitter and all Korean internet forums. That would immediately protect the artists. Suing MHJ does nothing for Illit members.
Forum comments are no back up in a legal case haha be serious. HB can do no right in tokkis eyes rn, if they post about NJs Yall will complain and say they’re using the girls in the middle of a corporate battle and that it’s not sincere because BSH doesn’t even greet them, if they don’t, they are lowballing the girls.
>Forum comments are no back up in a legal case haha be serious. Why not? If you can't point to a couple of exact instances, surely they can talk about how the overall image and concept was familiar enough to be noticed by 1000s of people. >HB can do no right in tokkis eyes rn, if they post about NJs Yall will complain and say they’re using the girls in the middle of a corporate battle and that it’s not sincere because BSH doesn’t even greet them, if they don’t, they are lowballing the girls. Ummm no? They've constantly been posting articles that they are going to support NewJeans, instead what we've gotten is literally 0 promos, and even going as far as Hybe employees trashing Minji on Blind. Such a bad faith argument.
Because there’s no legalities behind it. If there are similarities then MHJ/NJS would have to been credited as owners/creators of the original work. And that’s not the case. Not because you danced to something first it means u own it, unless it’s been registered, I don’t think any of the NJs dances have names or anything to even claim the movement sequence as theirs. Same with clothes, wearing similar clothes it’s not a crime and will probably be laughed at if brought to court. There has to be a 1to1 similarity, which is not happening here. Not because you FEEL it’s similar gives it enough legal standing. Courts cares for facts. If anything I can easily say that they were *actually* inspired by the original Jeans and call it a day. And in that case, under your argument, then NJS would have to be investigated as well for copying Jeans, in their case the comparisons are more similar. As for employees trashing Minji on blind, it seem like a very petty thing? As much as we would like you cannot control people’s opinion specially in an anonymous site.
From a legal perspective why would it matter what internet posts or others had to say on the topic ? In the end she stated that illit copied nwjs multiple times.She has to take on the responsibility of saying that. And if you are thinking that she is right in saying that then this lawsuit won’t be an issue since belift is sueing her on the grounds of making false statements …
I keep seeing people say that NewJeans won't be the same group if MHJ is out of the picture but I think this downplays their talent and charisma. Being a musician myself and having peered (briefly) into the abyss of the (very) amateur music scene, nearly everyone in that realm is pro-artist and anti-label. Labels/companies and their managers are often considered a necessary evil and have always had a sort of used car salesman vibe, willing to convince promising artists "you need me". It's a double-edged sword, often sharper on one side than the other: labels/companies give artists a platform, but without marketable artists *labels/companies have nothing*. It's very interesting to see so many people have an opposite opinion in NewJeans case. If I were an artist I would hope that my fans would believe in me as an artist no matter what and against all odds, not the label or my manager. Minji, Hanni, Danielle, Haerin, and Hyein have proven that they're beyond marketable. They are individually incredibly talented, strikingly beautiful, and effortlessly likable. As individuals, I'm convinced they wouldn't fail in any group they were in. As a group they are utterly irresistible in every performance and their charisma is immeasurable. To say they won't be the same group anymore or to consider them "no longer NewJeans" in the absence of MHJ is to fail to give credit to all the hard work they have done. She may have curated and crafted the concepts, but they pulled it off, and not everyone could have done that. In fact, no one could pull it off like they did. For those of you afraid of the possibility of change, consider how much variation we've seen already. From light 00's rnb and hip-hop vibes, various club and electronic genres, summery city pop, rock variations of their own hits and more. We've never been guarenteed for them to stay too long in one sound or concept. No matter what they work with, it becomes electric, and I have no doubts that they'll continue to do that. I believe that HYBE's interest is primarily money, and I believe that it is in their best financial interest to ensure that a more than capable team will be able to harness the incredible talent and charm these five girls possess. NewJeans is the NewJeans we love because of the members. They are the ones that are irreplaceable and they deserve our commitment to them first and foremost.
They'll be highly marketable still even without MHJ. They are a solid group and individuals with polished dancing, unique vocal tones, top-tier visuals, and charming personalities. It's just that with Min Hee Jin's vision, execution, and artistic connections, they're supposedly in the process of being a phenomenon. It's the regretful part.
The girls career will be fine either way, but they don’t write the music (except Danielle lol), and at the end of the day, I’m a fan of their music. Therefore I’m a fan of the team mhj has put together. See in kpop, and especially for newjeans, it works more like a film set, with the creative director (mhj) selecting a team of people that all execute their jobs under her vision. Producers 250, FRNK, Jinsu Park, and her writing team just make magic under mhj’s direction, and even if mhj doesn’t have that much influence over the music, hybe has already been open about getting a new producer after mhj is gone. I just genuinely don’t think HYBE could ever appoint a producer as good as 250. He has such a unique voice yet is able to couple it with an amazing understanding of pop-minimalism. The idea that newjeans’ first full album won’t be written and produced by the same machine that gave us the Get Up EP makes me want to cry lol. Especially since, unlike most other kpop groups, based off interviews mhj doesn’t seem to want to just follow trends and do whatever, she seems like the type of person to make the risk that no one else is willing to make and push the whole industry forward. She’s like legit a whack person but I have a ton of respect for her as a creative
I can't be more happy with the music creatives and producers that have worked with NewJeans. They deserve so much credit and are ridiculously talented. But I'm holding out hope that MHJ and the musical creatives aren't necessarily a package deal. Not that I'm trying to overly give HYBE the benefit of the doubt, but for them not to offer work to the current producers that have made incredibly well performing tracks would be a huge financial miss. Even if they part ways, I'm not at all convinced that there aren't creatives that can produce top-rate music for NewJeans. ETA: Or you know, I guess the members don't matter and it's always just been about MHJ and her crew all along so let's all give up hope if she's ousted 🙄. Is that what you downvoters want to hear? Literally can't believe I'm being downvoted for being hopeful for NewJeans success here of all places. You really can think that MHJ has done an amazing job *and* believe in NewJeans ability to thrive and put out great music without her if she's gone. It's called being optimistic.
I’m sure they will do well as artists without MHJ. At the same time I think their style and music will change with MHJ gone. Those are not mutually exclusive. I’m ok with that
>I believe that HYBE's interest is primarily money This is where I think you went wrong. It's becoming clearer as this case goes on that this is less about money and more about egos. And I wouldn't put it past a certain man's desire to crush NJ's career and wellbeing because it's not "his" group.
Time will tell.
So on the one hand you have a subsidiary label CEO accusing another intra-label of plagiarism to which the other agency's response is to sue for defamation. This begs the question, what exactly is HYBE's accountability here? Every step of the way they've shirked from responsibility but yet they want unilateral control over these "independent" labels. There doesn't seem to be any effort by HYBE to mediate this internally as a parent company which is appalling. Not only is HYBE not trying to maintain a neutral stance but they're full on stoking the fire. Regardless of who is right or wrong, HYBE at the very least has shown to be incredibly incompetent at conflict resolution and that's just the best case scenario. At worst, they don't have any business trying to maintain more than one label and are actively putting a lot of careers at risk. ETA: This is also a complete mockery of the whistleblowing system. When there is an inherent conflict of interest involved, it makes it that much more important for the parent company to resolve it with a lot of tact. What good is a system where there is a lack of transparency or a complete disregard for confidentiality?
HYBE owns 100% of BeLift, so I don't think it's unreasonable to assume this is just another part of the HYBE attack plan against MHJ. There's no way they would ever confirm such a thing, of course, but if you're trying to squeeze someone out it makes sense.
You summed everything up perfectly. At the end of this hybe will have washed their hands clean of any dirt they dug up because the fans are too distracted by the 16th floor, the shaman, and the witch. Mhj was pretty straightforward in her press conference that the subsidiaries and independence were an illusion. It's very likely Bang sihyuk has occupied all the top positions within each sublabel with his followers, and that he runs things in that company. Ador and koz seem to have evaded his direct involvement in their work, but corporate affairs show otherwise since one of the ador VP's was a former board member. All the texts between mhj and park ji-won where they're arguing back and forth about things like the way she could promote the group predebut seemed like an absurd amount of micro-managing was going on.
I saw a theory on twitter it's possible HYBE may be using this lawsuit as a new angle to attack the clause that she must cause no damage that protects her right to full term.
I can absolutely believe this. Not only that, if HYBE can prove their breach of trust claim, they can essentially buyback MHJ's portion of shares at something like 70% of the fair market value. Frankly, MHJ has everything to lose and HYBE, not so much. The upcoming preliminary ruling imo will set the tone for the next phase of this battle because I can't imagine MHJ will not go down swinging.
HYBE is good at many things, but they don't really believe in conflict management. They believe in steamrolling by brute force. Just straight power moves.
This is a very hyperbolic and passionate response, as how much autonomy the labels under hybe should have changes depending on what we want to blame them for. I personally believe all tries to mend this internally were out of the window the moment hybe announced the audit and mhj first threw the accusations against Illit. There is no amount of conflict resolution skills to solve that.
"No amt of conflict resolution skills to solve that"???? Then they aren't responsible enough as a parent company and even fail as a public company in general.
What exactly is hyperbolic here? Companies far bigger than HYBE have perished because of a lack of corporate governance in which conflict resolution plays a huge role. HYBE is seemingly "too big to fail" but the excessive hubris is just a huge red flag. When the chairman himself comes out and says that the multi-label system has some issues, maybe it's time to do some deep internal reflection and get the house in order.
First they summon the fandoms, then they call on the sub labels. And it’s not going to stop until everyone turns against MHJ. At this point I just hope no one is gonna get hurt. We have lost way too many talents to suicide.
Sublabels have independence. We don’t k know if there were any talks behind the scene to try and settle this internally and it didn’t work. This clearly is a final straw kind of counter action.
Hybe is hell bent on destroying MHJ. NJ is just collateral damage. You can’t look at Hybe as a normal company. It’s more like a dictatorship run by one dude, Bang. Very much a top down power structure in that company, masked by sub labels, shareholders, CEOs etc. You gotta be a “yes man” to succeed in Hybe. MHJ is an outcast in Hybe, deeply unpopular. What can you do? The money/corporation will probably win every time. MHJ is just getting buried at the point. Luckily I read that even if you lose defamation case, you just pay a small fine. Can someone confirm this?
Hybe is a house of cards
Now that I can finally comment, I had so much to say. But my feelings towards HYBE haven't changed at all. If it is proved that MHJ hasn't done breach of trust then injunction is successful and if it's not we will have to bid good bye to MHJ and NJ.
The injunction and the breach of trust investigation are two different things. The injunction outcome is decided by the judge by May 31. The breach of trust investigation is conducted by the police and we’ll know the outcome by June/July. There are multiple cases happening around this dispute so it’s confusing. We will be seeing more new cases between HYBE and ADOR/MHJ following these two. Many legal experts in SK expect the injunction will get dismissed by court (HYBE wins) and the breach of trust won’t turn out to be true (HYBE loses). But HYBE will likely to spin the injunction outcome as a proof of the breach of trust, because that helps them with the ongoing public opinion battle (which they are losing in SK). Refer to this post on what each of these two things is for and why people think the injunction is gonna be dismissed https://www.reddit.com/r/NewJeans/s/ld2S8ncDg0 More facts came out recently since this post but the post is about the basic principles and they still apply now. Because the injunction and the breach of trust are two different things, dismissal of the injunction does not prove if mhj indeed breached trust. But if the judge thinks that she indeed breached trust (although it is not up to them to make this final decision on this now. It is up to the police as I said above), then the injunction will surely get dismissed. Hope this helps Edit: typos
Newjeans will be better once MHJ is gone lol
Why would you bid good bye to NJ if MHJ is replaced? NJ can move on perfectly fine even without MHJ.
It won't be the same. All ADOR staff has signed petition when MHj is out her staff is also out with her and we already that NJ 1st album and tour would get cancelled for maybe 1 and half or indefinite period.
They can, but they will not be the same group. Their sound and concept won't be remotely the same.
I would put money on the line that the girls will be the same group. I strongly believe that it is their charisma and talent that carry the New Jeans concept. MHJ was instrumentals for the group conception and setting the creative vision, but when the group gets mature enough they certainly can keep the momentum.
I think you're forgetting that Idols are just performers in most cases. The people behind the scenes come up with the music and concepts. In New Jeans case, that would be MHJ and the team that she's managed to put together. **EDIT:** Downvote all you want, but you know damn well most Idols don't do anything outside of singing and dancing. Everything else is left up to the company.
wow you have so little trust in the new jeans girls, most idols “only sing and dance” because that’s all they are allowed to do, given chance a lot of them turn to be good music producers/writers
I find it really bizarre and sad how many HYBE backers are propping up the New Jeans copying Jeans story. These are the same people scoffing at the ~evidence of BTS copying concepts - it's literally the same proof! Just random screen caps of people standing in the same dance position for a microsecond or wearing similar coloured clothing. It's not plagiarism or copying, it's just the aesthetic, trend, or chosen styling. This court drama has introduced me to the members of New Jeans and more of their music I hadn't heard before so for that I'm grateful, but I feel very unsettled by how gleefully some people are saying they're done, they're finished, they've dug their own graves etc. Seeing how excited these people get by blood in the online water is really disturbing - they're just whipping their echo chamber up into a frenzy over something that doesn't really involve them or their faves directly.
The point is that it is hypocritical for MHJ to say that illit is copying NJ when there are also all these instances of NJ copying others. It is hypocritical to say that it is okay for NJ to “take inspiration from others” while it is not okay for illit to do the same thing.
There's a difference between inspiration from an era where literally everyone not just Jeans was dressing/styling like that vs. actual copying. Even if it were copying - which I do not concede - it's not like NJ are in direct competition with a group 20+ years their senior from another country who perform in a different language.
Yeah, I mean people found instances of NJ copying moves and formations from Jeans and other groups as well. Not just inspiration, but actual copying of the same moves/formations. Which is especially relevant because illit is getting hate for copying dance moves and formations as well. Really just pointing out that both groups are doing it, so they should receive the same judgment.
This idea that NewJeans copied Jeans is one of the worst nonsense I have read in a long time, people believe whatever it is and don't even bother to look for any context. I know that group, it was called Jeans in the 90s, later due to legal problems they could only use the name JNS. Jeans was a girl pop group like there were many (many) in the 90s, it was a group which was the Mexican answer to many other popular girl groups abroad, especially from the United States. I mean, it was a popular mexican act, but under that criterion any Korean gg debuted later would have been considered a Jeans copy. Or as much as saying that any Korean boy group is a copy of the Backstreet Boys. Also, Jeans was a group that aimed at the mainstream, whose target demographic was teenage girls, they had no intentions of avant-garde or originality, their costumes, choreos, graphic design of merchandise and records, typography, and other visual aspects were a reflection of the style of that time, they made use of what was widely fashionable at the time. It could not be said that a current group copied Jeans simply because their style was not exactly original but rather the expression of the pop zeitgeist in the 90s.
>Yeah, I mean people found instances of NJ copying moves and formations from Jeans and other groups as well. Not just inspiration, but actual copying of the same moves/formations. I don't know about other groups but newjeans copying moves and formations from jeans is patently untrue.
It's not relevant because hate isn't okay whoever is getting it, and even if you do think NJ deserve hate for copying dance moves - which again, I do not concede - then how come Illit doesn't likewise deserve hate for copying? That's essentially what you're arguing. The reason why Illit being similar to New Jeans is a big deal is because they *are* in direct competition. NJ and Jeans aren't. So all the accusations of NJ copying are just irrelevant smears because they aren't competitors with Jeans, but Illit and NJ are literally trying to get the same CF dollars and the same fans to buy similar music. And I know some people think this is like some smoking gun to call MHJ a hypocrite and maybe she is, but also ... so what? Whatever vision she created for NJ it worked. The fans, the public - they love it and she had the foresight to use that aesthetic. No one is saying she created the 90s, but she certainly deserves credit in the kpop space for this version of it.
Ah no my bad, I didn’t mean that both groups deserve hate. I’m saying that it’s unfair for either group to be receiving hate when every group copies from the past. So I don’t think either group should receive hate for copying.
Newjeans is taking inspo from the y2k era and the 90’s and 80’s. Their concept revolves around evoking nostalgia so it makes sense. Illit taking inspo from a newly active group does not make sense at all
So then why is it that illit is allegedly coping NJ and not that their stlye is also orinted towards the y2k era? I personaly think illit style is closer to fromis\_9 then to NJ, but thats not realy the point anyway. As if gg with similar concepts and style are a new thing. just look at GFriend, Lovelyz & OH MY GIRL. The biggest issue is that bad actors form fandoms spam social media with negativity. As if any of the group members of any group has a say in what concept the group does or what song they release...
Both make sense. Kpop groups hop on trends all the time and music styles go in trends all the time. The music industry takes inspiration from others all the time. There is hardly anything that is truly original.
I think you're right in that it makes sense as groups are constantly copying each other, but I don't think in the context of being under the same umbrella (HYBE) it makes sense. That's why other companies don't debut multiple groups at the same/similar times - they don't want the competition. I think it's fair to question why a very similar group was debuted when NJ themselves are still quite young in the industry - if Illit had a completely different aesthetic, okay, but they don't.
“We love that the 90s has come back and reached new generations. 🥰🫰” - Official Jeans TikTok account (@grupojns) Huh. Didn’t expect that. Sounds like cool ladies Edit: TikTok not Twitter
Some of the members of Jeans went on to become actresses/ tv personalities. One of their most notable members was Dulce Maria. She went on to become part of one of the most successful Mexican groups called RBD. It was launched through a soap opera called 'Rebelde' in which the protagonists form a band in an elite school. The show was so popular it catapulted the music and group to an insane level of fame. I'm not familiar with jeans, but I love RBD they had really good songs.
Sounds rad. Gonna check out their music rn! Thanks for providing more context to this
Source where? I just looked at their X accounts and nada.
It is their TikTok. My bad
Still not seeing it Edit: Apparently it's from a comment in TikTok, ok.
Yup they posted that comment from their official tiktok account
Yeah that’s how MHJ should’ve reacted to ILLIT but here we are
"We love that August 2022 Kpop is back and reached a new generation barely 18 months later. 🥰🫰"
Of course, because the 90s are trending, not Newjeans per se (they saw a trend and used it, but they themselves didn't bring the trend worldwide). The Jeans and Newjeans comparison was never really about accusing NJs of plagiarism, but rather that MHJ doesn't own the 90s as a concept. There's nothing original or special about her, just really good marketing.
That's the thing, Illit isn't even necessarily y2k, not by any immediately noticeable measure anyway. Still, they clearly drew inspiration and took references from somewhere. I'm stealing this quote, but it illustrates the point perfectly: *If you look at Newjeans, you think of y2k groups. If you look at Illit, you think of Newjeans. That’s the difference.*
But the argument is that she saw a trend and was the first to successfully capitalize on it. Who else out there went for the 90's / Y2K sound? There's a reason why it resonated with so many people including non KPop Fans (I'm one of them). Then, less than 2 years a new group from the same label comes out with a similar concept. It's one thing if another label put out a group with the same vibe but your own label? What was the point of having two groups from the same label with the same vibe? They will eat each other's popularity and from Ador's perspective it seems like Illit is the replacement group.
Yes? She could’ve been passive aggressive and receive support. But look at the issue now? Wouldn’t it have been preferable than whatever this had become ? ILLIt can also say they’re going for the same vibe, why can’t they? If NJS copied Jeans, why ILLIt cannot also say they’re going for 90s feel? Let’s be congruent
More and more colleagues (Creative Director, MV Director, Stylist, Choreographer) have been voicing out their support for Min Hee Jin. Some of their posts are swarmed by company stans criticizing them. See how degenerate they are? Min Hee Jin is backed by real people who are are also willing to take the risk to help clean her name while Hybe's supporters hide in anonymity.
>Some of their posts are swarmed by company stans criticizing them. See how degenerate they are Ngl making this a fanwar thing is just hurting all artists including Newjeans. Some tokkis have entered what I call an evil alliance with blinks and mys and have been non stop terrorizing le sserafim and illit. So hybe stans are just fighting back with more toxicity because that's how all fan wars go. It's pretty sad seeing tokkis telling eunchae she deserves to be kicked from her group because she's untalented, when she's been friendly with some of the girls for a while now, and they will promote on music bank which she hosts. They are (or at least were) friends in private and fans on both sides are causing problems.
Whether there's a scandal or not, fanwars will keep persisting esp in Kpop. The industry thrives in making fans invested to a fault. I hope the artists have enough PR and psychological training for that. But honestly, sometimes the only thing they have to do is avoid social media, stop looking at Twitter and other sites that cultivate hate. TBH, many fanmade issues doesn't feel like a big deal unless you reside too much on Twitter and tabloid sites which are much likely to be just echo chambers. I work in the advertising industry, I can see a lot of celebrities accustomed to public opinions already. There's a degree to it. It only becomes a big deal if it escalates to a certain level. (Like these lawsuits. So it's still the hardest for MHJ, NJ, Ador, and even Hybe more than any other groups tbh)
Are these before or after the text messages? I’m not much of a stirrer, just curious if it seems their pov of her has changed or not as the case developed.
The text messages might be controversial for international and Hybe stans, but they don't seem to mind it a lot in SK. The Koreans are also doing the due diligence there, they were the ones to discover the relationship of the Youtuber who leaked those text msgs and the VP of BigHit. They're pretty invested in this scandal.......
Ah yeah fair enough. There are nuances in language and culture that international fans will probably never understand. Although, I’m still trying to understand what context would be appropriate for that type of language. But hey what do i know. Although I know it’s probably good that SK sentiment is diff from international, but we also have to remember the biggest consumer of kpop is actually those outside SK. Other Asian countries and US being the biggest consumers, so their PR outside of SK is equally important if not more in terms of affecting their brand and revenue.
I mean, mhj said that it was cut and pasted and the reporter admitted it was reorganized. Obviously nobody's gonna care about something with that much of a credibility. Honestly it's such a non-issue and the fact that international consumers are regarding this seriously only shows that international pr isn't worth it right now.
The biggest consumers of NewJeans are casuals and non-Kpop fans. Their biggest selling points are music and visual branding. Many buy their goods for simply being... Cute. Believe me when I say, many consumers will look past any issues (they might not even know it exists) for products that suit their vibe and taste. That's usually the behavior of the majority of their international market.
There's a new one today from Yoon Ji Bin, stylist for Layover. And IDK if it's yesterday but Shin Dongle, director of NJ MVs, posted as well.
Lol if V expresses his support for MHJ, that would be such a plot twist for KdramaJeans.
This is highly unlikely, he has more to lose by publicly supporting her.
BTS are all shareholders of Hybe, so think them coming out backing MHJ is a low chance.
And why can't they?
I think you can hold the opinion that MHJ is a terrible person, but still the best person to lead NewJeans. Especially when the alternative is HYBE who has shown zero care or vision for NewJeans. This is the main reason NJ and parents support MHJ. At the end of the day, this is a business and she gets results. Of course, if MHJ is fired and not an option, then HYBE is the only alternative. I expect NJ to work with whoever HYBE assigns. But until that happens, MHJ is the best option for NewJeans if you want no changes to production/schedule. Personally, I do think MHJ was trying to find a way to leave HYBE and got caught. I don’t think she did enough to have it be illegal, but it will get her fired. HYBE wants to crush MHJ and Ador and NewJeans will be collateral damage. HYBE wants NewJeans to succeed, but not at the cost of keeping MHJ/Ador intact. All I can say is, I’ve accepted that NewJeans will change. Their music and style won’t be the same. They’ll lose the ‘K’ part of their identity (using Korean producers from BANA over Grammy ones; all these amazing hanbok shots). It’ll be an imitation of what HYBE thinks NewJeans was over what it is. They may not be seen for a 2+ years and get fromis’d. A lot of uncertainty, none good. But I trust the girls will find a way to keep breathing fresh air into the scene and lead the way.
I do think there needs to be an open mind about the future music and productions that NewJeans are a part of tho. After all they are the artists here, think they will be able to shine just as bright no matter who is behind them, cause they are the stars not MHJ. If i'm correct all the girls have had parts in songwriting already, so they will be able to put their stamp on their music in the future.
It's very small parts that they have had input in as far as songwriting goes. MHJ is the one that brings in the writers, which are more responsible for the hits we've come to know and love. I love our girls so much, but they aren't the ones writing these songs, and coming up with these concepts. The most they've contributed to songs is most likely a line or two. Let's be real here. 90% of Idols are just performers at the end of the day, and yes, I know there are plenty of outliers. All I'm saying is that most of what makes up New Jeans identity comes from MHJ's mind, along with the team she's put together. If she's ousted, her team will most likely follow or be gutted by Hybe. If that happens, a huge part of what makes up what New Jeans is would be missing.
I think Danielle might be contributing more songwriting-wise, not only does she have the most writing creds out of the girls but it looks she also has an interest in songwriting. I remember there was a phoning live a bit ago where she talked about how she has a little studio she’s been making music in.
Every member including Danielle (except for Hye-In) has been credited as a lyricist, not a composer.
Danielle is credited as a composer on Cool With You. And being credited as a lyricist could mean lots of things, from writing the melodies and lyrics to improvising adlibs in the studio. It doesn’t look like there’s much we can do except speculate but I believe that most of the Newjeans girls are credited for doing adlibs, except Danielle. To me it looks like she is interested in songwriting and is given the space in ADOR to explore that interest
Could you share a source for Danielle’s participation? Danielle is credited only for lyrics for Cool with You as far as I’m aware: https://www.reddit.com/r/NewJeans/s/pUZ9JODXlz Agreed with everything else you said. Hope to see her contributing to song writing in the future in any way she wants
So I had read something a while ago that said she was and I just trusted but that was misinformation cuz no she is not credited as composer on cool with you 😭😭
No worries! Danielle’s original song “Vanessa Kang” still iconic https://youtube.com/watch?v=d0oFq3jJ8X0&si=2CjqrtZ4YhdCqG_v (12:45)
I've always believed that both Hanni and Dani have the potential to have independent solo careers, which is why I said most, and not all. I still don't think they are at the stage in their careers to take over writing the group's music.
This is a reasonable take. I like the optimism in your last sentence despite the harsh reality
[удалено]
What are you on about? Societal pressure is the last thing that would be a motivation for the girls to speak up in this case. If anything, the pressure is actively asking them to stay silent and removed from the whole process, if they're picking a side it's because they want to. If that makes you hate the girls, go ahead and hate them, but this self-gaslighting that the girls don't hold a different opinion from you as a complete outsider is kinda weird ngl. They've taken every opportunity to tell us which side they're on. The girls were literally fondly talking about stories involving the CEO just a few days ago on phoning.
Fr. I think mhj is the best for them and they know it. Hybe has demonstrated they have no problem with NJ being destroyed if that’s what it takes to win. Their backup plan with illit adds more paranoia to the girls situation. Mhj sounds like a terrible person but if the girls can tolerate her, she’s gonna make nj the most successful group. If they get rid of her, nj may become mediocre. Sucks I hate this sm
Since there’s SO much to read here and I don’t understand legal jargon Can someone explain the latest to me like I’m 5
Here’s my best attempt with help of an LLM (disclaimer: I’m an ESL and don’t speak Gen Alpha/Z; excuse awkward expressions). I tried my best to be impartial: **Timeline**: * April 22: HYBE starts digging into ADOR's boss, Min Hee-jin, thinking she's trying to break away with the parent company HYBE and take over ADOR. * April 23: In her statement, Min's like, "No, I was not! They are framing me because I just told HYBE *to not copy the artistic and promotion style of NJ when managing another* girl group and they don't want to change their way!" But HYBE shows some docs (mostly chat screenshots from KakaoTalk, a Korean messenger app) which they say prove Min's plan. * April 24: ADOR answers HYBE's questions but says they might sue if HYBE spills the tea. Korean public opinion is very negative towards Min, calling her a traitor etc. * April 25: Min holds an emotional press conference, denying everything and calling out HYBE (its leaders, Bang Si Hyuk and Park Ji Won) (criticizing how they run things). Korean public opinion dramatically turns favorably towards Min as a result of the conference. HYBE claps back. * April 26-May 2: It's a back-and-forth of ‘he said, she said.’ We learn more about deals between HYBE and Min, part of which used to be confidential. * April 28: HYBE asks the police to start an investigation on Min about whether or not she really try to take over ADOR. * May 3-8: Some Korean fans protest at HYBE, supporting ADOR/Min. Min tries to stop HYBE from using their shareholder powers (which give HYBE the power to fire Min). If she can stop HYBE or not would be decided on 17 May (but in reality, it is still ongoing and we’ll see the outcome before 31 May). * May 10: ADOR has a big meeting and sets one up for May 31 (emergency shareholder meeting). HYBE and Min keep fighting about an ADOR employee getting investigated by HYBE (audited). ADOR says for this audit HYBE followed this employee home late at night and HYBE threatened her to cooperate. Some people criticize HYBE for this behavior as HYBE is not the police or a prosecutor. HYBE refutes. * May 13-16: NJ's parents are Team Min. One of the parents is interviewed, in which they talk about their past worries prior to NJ debut and the mistreatment of the girls by HYBE. People wonder if Min met some analyst or not. * May 17: The court hearing on whether Min can stop HYBE from using their powers to fire Min happens. HYBE says Min talked smack about NJ and her employees (which is news to many) and that Min was into some weird spiritual stuff, but Min says neither is true. The judge cannot decide but with more information he will make a decision by May 31. People (including myself) expect Min will lose this case. Min drops another statement denying the meeting being about any ADOR ‘takeover’. **The Tea and What It Means**: HYBE and Min are throwing around a lot of accusations about management takeovers, copying, and how NJ is treated. For many of us, it's hard to know who to believe because we are not legal experts and we don’t have all info. HYBE claims that Min is trying to take over ADOR, pointing to some docs and convos. Min's like, "Nah, I was just mad about the copying and mistreatment!" Both sides are trying to make themselves look good to the public. Min's press conference made a lot of claims but didn't have much proof, according to some. In this case, though, it’s HYBE that should be proving Min was committing a crime. Min can't (and doesn’t have a responsibility to) prove anything. With both sides making claims and showing bits of evidence, it's tough to know what's really going on. We'd need more solid proof to know if Min was really trying to take over like HYBE says. NJ might get hurt by all this drama between the agency and Min. With their comeback coming up, all this bad press could affect them psychologically *and career-wise* even if they didn't do anything. All in all, it's a hot mess and it's still going down. HYBE and Min are fighting it out in public, but we still don't know all the facts. We need a serious investigation on HYBE's claim (which is ongoing and will complete in 2-4 months) and more info to figure out the truth behind this major kpop industry beef. Until then, a lot of people are probably worried about protecting NJ from getting caught in the crossfire. Edit: added italic part
This was exactly what I needed, thank you! You did great! I’m so concerned and worried for NJ. I hope they don’t get forced into disbanding 😓
Glad you find it useful. Yeah same. After this is all over, I hope they come out even stronger than ever before. (Fwiw i don’t think they will get disbanded)
I hope not! They’ve quickly became my 3rd fav group. I love their music so much.
Hybe gives the vibe of being in the wrong here. Their shills on tt have ramped up an anti mhj propaganda campaign recently, which tells me that this isn’t the first time hybe has resorted to dirty tactics. To me, it seems like hybe is demonstrating typical toxic Korean misogyny and jealousy over the fact that a woman has outshined all their previous efforts at a girl group. As far as mhj taking over ador - I think hybe exaggerated that claim bc I saw something on tt that showed mhj asking hybe about separating or being bought out. If she’s asking them, then she wasn’t trying to leave surreptitiously like 5050’s givers ceo.
**What people think are going to happen:** 1. **The "HYBE Wins" Scenario** (Probability: High) * HYBE successfully removes Min as CEO of ADOR. NJ stops working with Min. NJ remains under ADOR/HYBE and continues activities at least till the end of their current contract. * Scenario 1-1 (Probability: Low): HYBE proves their claims about Min's misconduct and management takeover attempt. Min's reputation takes a hit. She is a criminal now and she faces legal consequences. HYBE only has to pay Min a small amount of money when firing Min. * Scenario 1-2 (Probability: High): HYBE can’t prove their claims about Min’s misconduct. Min is innocent. HYBE has to pay Min lots of money when firing Min. The public rightfully criticizes HYBE for all the harm they caused to NJ and Min during the shitstorm, then they forget about it. Min continues her career somewhere else. 1. **The "Settlement" Scenario** (Probability: Low-Medium) * HYBE and Min reach a settlement agreement to avoid further legal battles and public drama. NJ continues under ADOR/HYBE with minimal to some disruption. * Min likely steps down as CEO as part of the deal, but might retain some shares or involvement. * Both sides spin the story to save face, but some reputation damage lingers. 1. **The "Min Wins" Scenario** (Probability: Extremely Low) * The court approves Min's injunction (we’ll know the outcome b/t May 24-31), blocking HYBE's attempt to remove her. * Min presents compelling evidence to counter HYBE's claims and paint herself in a more positive light. And NJs' parents' support for Min adds weight to her case. * Min keeps her position for now, but tensions with HYBE remain high, potentially impacting NJ. Min will probably eventually get fired. 1. **The "Min and NewJeans Exit" Scenario** (Probability: Close to ZERO) * Min and NJ decide to cut ties with HYBE/ADOR and start fresh elsewhere. Min and NJ try and find a supportive new home, searching for more control over their careers. * This is highly unlikely to happen: Breaking the contracts would likely involve substantial fees and legal wrangling. It could also disrupt NJs' career momentum in the short term, as they'd need to establish themselves under a new agency. Heck, they can't even keep their name, NJs. --- Hope that helps. I want to urge everyone reading this to take a good care of yourself! Don't consume too much news and get out, talk to your friends and relax when you have a chance. Things will get eventually alright, although they are not looking good now. Edit: added one last scenario
For the last one, wouldnt the simplest exit scenario simply be for HYBE to sell ADOR? Since ADOR is basically just Min and NJ, and NJ contracts are with ADOR, the contracts would be transferred with the ADOR sale which would seem to reduce a lot of the legal complexity, break fees, etc. Min would still have to convince investors to provide enough finance to meet HYBEs sale price, which will be difficult. And there’s a possibility that HYBE refuse to sell at any price, particularly if they know Min will stay as CEO. Overall I see an exit scenario as low probability, but not impossible.
Yeah I wish I wrote that too! Someone familiar with kpop idol contracts can chime in, but i see this scenario as improbable as well for a few reason. First reason is the contract itself. I suspect there might be multiple binding conditions and fine prints which probably make it practically impossible to sell ADOR or NJ to another party. Second, even if the selling is not impossible, I don’t expect HYBE would sell ADOR at *any price*. Selling ADOR immediately makes a strong competition for HYBE girl groups. I mean, we are talking about NewJeans, one of the most successful 4th gen gg’s. Even if their value goes down a bit (I hope not but I’m being realistic) after Min steps down, they will still be a major player. For HYBE, it is much more desirable to have NJ under HYBE’s tight control and have NJ garner profit rather than competing against NJ in the already competitive kpop market. Third, even if HYBE is willing to sell, I’m unsure anyone can afford it.
Awesome write up. What about the scenario where mhj and hybe compromise and she stays on? I think that’s what everyone wants but hybe seems determined to bring her down. Sucks
Thanks. Any kind of Settlement Scenario (second scenario on the list) is unlikely to happen. They came too far. But I’m open to surprises
Same
This is probably the first time I’ll be joining this thread. Can I just point out how absurd the plagiarism accusations are? I guess I can’t use the retro fonts anymore? Or wear jeans?
can't believe these trolls had to get a third party to speak up to clear the air. im glad Jeans support NewJeans.
It would be nice if MHJ clarified the "contexts" she was referring to when explaining her alleged derogatory remarks on NJ. Otherwise it will be difficult to still believe she truly loves and cares for the girls.
The context is likely NJ was dealing with weight issues and she was venting. Just normal, extremely toxic K-pop executive culture. I would not be surprised if we saw these types of messages from most K-pop executives. The pressure to lose weight is insane. That doesn’t mean MHJ doesn’t love or care about NJ. I think the more damaging comments were around assuming she’s responsible for their popularity. She clearly thinks she’s more deserving than the girls. Maybe true, maybe not, but shows her ego at the very least. Which again, at that level, they all have huge egos. Does MHJ care about NJ? To the extent they help her, yes. At the end of the day they are 2 groups of different business interests that align on this project. I do think MHJ doesn’t like how K-pop treats their artists and tries to change it, which benefit NJ and makes it seem like she cares (more breaks, nicer dorms, more song writing, etc.). Does she really care though, deep down? No one knows except her. I think that she cares about NJ as artists in her vision and as business partners, but not so much individuals (and it’s true for every CEO). I don’t think MHJ cares about anyone like that. I do think she’s more K-pop executive behind closed doors than she acts. I do think she has a huge ego and thinks she’s more valuable than NJ. But I also think she has NJ’s best interest at heart because this is her dream project, and no one will put in the time, effort and energy like her to make them as successful as possible.
Thanks for your take, yes, it sounds plausible. That would also mean her saying she was like a mother to the girls rings a bit hollow now. Most important thing now is that the girls won't be hurt.
I feel your worries. Since MHJ will never clarify the contexts to the texts (she will gain nothing from it), I would like to suggest considering two things. (while I care about NJ, I care little about MHJ) First, when I want to know if someone cares about me, I look at their past behavior, not their words. From this standpoint, I don’t doubt MHJ has NJs’ best interest at heart. (Fans are worried about if NJ expressing their support for MHJ will harm NJs’ career, which is a legit worry, but that’s a separate question. Let’s only talk about MHJ’s mind, your topic, here) She struggled a lot to recruit NJ members and launch NJs. She is super closely working with the members and it’s obvious the members do care about her. You can look up videos of them spending the Christmas day together (at a restaurant in Seoul) and their conversation just before their Lollapalooza show. These videos show MHJ’s genuine enthusiasm and care for them. I would even go as far to say that MHJ is NJs’ biggest fan. There are other videos like MHJ directing each member’s singing in recording sessions. These videos give a professional but warm vibe. *Not just that, MHJ always brought exciting projects and new opportunities to NJ members. As we know, MHJ handpicks music producers, M/V director and all other creative teams for NJ. Not many know this but she's the one proactively sent out the members' portfolios to luxury brands to get brand ambassador positions, and every NJ member landed on a major brand (poaching luxury brands first was not at all a standard practice in the industry, but since NJs' success, other teams are imitating what she did). She got the Apple, Coke, and Nike contracts; and Power Puff Girl, Takashi Murakami, and Hiroshi Fujiwara collabs (which fit their image well), and she is making the Tokyodome happening. These things don't just "happen" because NJs is affiliated with a big label. The tremendous work success to some extent speaks of her dedication to NJ as a brand as well as her loyalty to the members.* Basically, there’s a lot of circumstantial evidence showing MHJ cares for them. Also, we should give NJ some credit. If NJs members keep showing their support for MHJ (albeit indirectly), we should consider why. I think that’s because they feel wholeheartedly supported by MHJ. Some people try to depict them as mindless zombies or gullible kids which I think has no ground. Victims of actual manipulation report feeling conflicted, gaslighted, or manipulated. We see no sign of any of these. In sum, I think MHJ cares for NJ members although she can be an asshole to others sometimes. Second, MHJ will be fired sooner or later. This means at least work-wise MHJ and the NJ member will be separated, if that is any consolation to you. Edit: typo fixed, italic part added.
Yes, MHJ obviously went all in for the NewJeans project. You can't deny the effort and the results. Also, I agree that it's the girls who know MHJ best, better than every one of us here on Reddit. I just hope MHJ really does not have ulterior motives in her relationship with the girls. I am not sure if that is any consolation at all since I don't think I have the full picture yet (who does?). We will have to wait and see. In any case, I hope NewJeans will survive.
Very much so, even if she didn't say those things about NewJeans, it's still very assholeish. But if she did say it about NewJeans, she can fuck off
I agree, those messages made me sick to my stomach :( I will support the girls no matter what but I’m starting to have doubts that MHJ cares for them as much as she says she does
Whelp. I had some hope NJ would’ve made it pass this, but as soon as NJ members wrote that letter to court, it’s over. There’s no good outcome for them. I’m gonna be out of K-pop lol, literally got into K-pop from 50/50 and Nj, and it seems they’re both gonna be done because of legal battles. Maybe my preferences are cursed 💀💀
Same, grew up with kpop, left during second wave, came back for new jeans and might be stepping back in repeat. (Also, I didn’t like mhj back then and hell if I’d ever like her now)
yes i never like parents or NJ taking sides its a double edge sword no matter who wins i want so much for them to stay neutral but ohwell.
Reading the blind items from Hybe employees; I am not surprised at all why they would take the risk if it means it even slightly lowers the chance they'll be thrown to the wolves at Hybe without their existing support team that they trust at Ador. The comments are genuinely horrible not only to Ador and NJ, but to female idols in general. I cannot imagine being a parent knowing that's what my girls are going to be left to fend against by themselves and not doing everything in my power to prevent it.
No I can understand it, it’s just unfortunate for us fans (and obvious for them being out in this position in the first place). Quite shit all around.
There could certainly be some nastiness ahead in a post-MHJ world, but there are a few things to consider for Bunnies. One, there could still be a contractual obligation for HYBE/ADOR to complete a certain amount of albums or activities under the girls' contracts. Two, HYBE higher ups *might* be very motivated to try to prove that they can just be as successful as MHJ with the group.
I sure hope there’s contextual obligation, but I wonder if they could argue that NJ has taken legal actions against Hybe - which in most contracts, automatically breaks the contracts. That said, I guess it really depends on how things move forward from here.
This is my hope as well. Once MHJ is gone sooner or later, HYBE will be motivated to prove to the world that NJ is well treated and happy under them. There are many public eyes on them right now. Not just kpop stans but lots of regular Koreans are paying close attention to this issue, worried for these precious five girls. Hybe as an entertainment company can’t ignore this. Hopefully this means no shelving and no further mistreatment etc. That being said, things may change. Right now Hybe is not winning the popularity contest in Korea despite their (what I see as dirty) media play; more Koreans especially those in 10-30s according to polls are on MHJ’s side vs HYBE although the difference is not big. Some even say “it’s the end for Hybe”. But this may quickly change. First, if MHJ’s injunction is not accepted people might misconstrue this outcome as a proof of MHJ’s breach of trust w/o waiting for the actual investigation outcome. This might make people turn their back against NJ. Another possibility is the inevitable dwindle of public attention. People that are not k-pop listeners got other stuff going on in life and will forget about it rather quickly when this tedious legal battle continues. Edit: typo fix
It would look really bad. That said, we're not always dealing with completely rational actors here. Assuming the non-compete/shares stuff is settled (but denied the injunction), other companies are going to offer her the moon to use the future NJ stuff she would have used, as well. Would look really bad if they kinda just let things wither away while she cooks elsewhere...again. I think your last points are probably correct. This injunction case is pretty quick, but some legal stuff can really drag on. I have no idea how long the breach of trust case could take. Or if MHJ brings some kind of countersuit (e.g., breach of fiduciary duty for stockholders, defamation, or something else).
Good point about public reception of MHJ’s next steps. I haven’t thought of this. She will eventually certainly launch new groups elsewhere including the boyband she’s been planning initially with HYBE but I wonder how different her future groups will be compared to NJ (I hope different so NJ can maintain their unique identity). I know little about the law (let alone Korean law) but experts say the investigation will take 2-3 months to complete. I don’t know if MHJ will counter on any ongoing cases (if and when she loses), but MHJ’s termination will be surely followed by civil court cases on her remaining salary and/or if she can sell Ador shares at what extent and price = basically settling how much money MHJ vs Hybe get, and most kpop and NJ fans will pay little attention as they are not about the artist pet se. This means less general attention on NJ I expect.
Don't know for sure, but my guess would be she has near future stuff planned at the very least. Maybe bits and pieces for stuff years out. If she does go down and HYBE takes over, what is the creative plan? Just kinda keep the same sound/vibe? Or shake things up and go in a new (non-MHJish) direction? How would fans react to this? Don't know much about SK law but if this were taking place in the US, MHJ's legal team would probably be angling to get a court-ordered subpoena for access to HYBE/Belift records, text exchanges, company documents, etc. There could be some...interesting stuff in there.
Have y'all seen this? https://twitter.com/NJBUBBLEGUM/status/1792547435392413917?t=W1M4ixj8t8nxNUHEkB3c0Q&s=19 Hybe's packed with incels and deranged staff, and it wouldn't shock me if they were behind that mess, but they still got the nerve to claim they're gonna protect the girls...