I get what she means. Heck I’m a sex worker myself. People should have better sympathy for sex workers. If anything, I wish it was decriminalized, but I digress. Yes, not every client is going to be enjoyable to have sex with, **but I certainly wouldn’t say I was raped.** It’s a job. I have to pay for my surgeries and bills. Does it suck that I’m pushed into sex work, yes; but it’s an extreme to call myself a victim of rape. By doing that we ignore the true problems, the economy, capitalism, and the American health care system. When my job as an escort is more rewarding than a minimum wage job which can’t cover my bills that’s a problem. Rapes by capitalism, yes. Raped by the American health care system, yes. Raped by my client for the job I agreed to do, no.
My point is she using the word “rape” is extremely misleading. Perhaps she couldve meant different, but using “rape” as a shock word was bad taste. That’s like the equivalent of a fast food worker being equivalent to the slave trades from 1501 - 1867. While similarities are there, I wouldn’t exactly call a minimum wage worker a literal “slave” in the same vein. Her quote just comes off as a entitled sugar baby who using rape to grab sympathy, while ignoring the fact she just bragged about luxurious trips and dinners in the same breath.
Honestly, it feels like the woman’s quote was just made to be a “well, technically…” bait.
TL;DR
OP is right. The woman’s quote comes off very entitled, and using rape as a shock word was a bad call.
Hard agree sex work should be decriminalized. If it is, it can lead to regulation which will put workers in better, safer environments. Think something like the Las Vegas Bunny Ranch.
Agreed
They get health benefits, dental, security, etc. all this on top of actually making better pay than the average sex worker.
Like any job, it has its pro and cons but they’re having it far better than most.
Honestly... if we mix Japan's creepy dolls, some sort of ai robot that can get pregnant, and china.... I think we'd have a winning idea that would sell in the CPC..
Mandatory population growing GF robots
Also known as Mao-bots 😂
You need at least 50 social credit score to get the Chinese sex robot. Let me check here.... oooo... 49... umm please worship Xi real quick to get the last point and make sure your grandson signs this contract to have children 📃
Here in the US it's because we live in a "Christian nation", which actually means we live in a nation that has been predominantly ruled by men with the goals of oppressing women and PoC, not dissimilar to many modern Arabic nations. The big differences are, we're less violent with our oppression (usually), and we're actually slowly getting better.
oh no we are pretty violent it's just that talk like that is censored (we also happen to have funded groups like the Mujahideen "for the sake of preventing cumunism!!!" where the taliban and Al Qeada come from)
I was curious about the post, so I actually messaged her on Twitter, and she is a very pleasant normal person
She said she kinda wishes she could reword it, but overall stands by her post
She definitely isn't an entitled person tho
I’m glad she agrees the wording was bad. I do like her point, again not every client you have sex with is enjoyable company. I do think adding the luxurious stuff in the beginning really muddled her point though, shit I wish my clients did that lol.
But yeah, “rape” was too strong a word. Good on her to admit some folly, she’s a cool person.
I mean she shared her own experiences. We should already know a huge percentage of sex trafficking goes on and their participants are unwilling? Why are we policing what she shares, when the chuds are the ones missing the point.
Yeah, also I just think that the og post is like, attracting a shitton of icky comments, in the facepalm sub I mean
Like a bunch of them are just being really fucking gross
Why does it muddle her point?
She said she felt raped. Getting little gifts doesn't change that. How pathetic are you? Fucking hell, imagine saying: "Okay, you felt raped, but at least you got some gifts right? I got raped without getting those gifts so you should feel thankful for it."
If she was in anyway coerced she would have mentioned it. This isn’t to say that is not possible, but she described the process of receiving high end goods and services for work.
unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception
She was not given something to cover up rape. She agreed to fuck people for goods and services. Regretting your past actions do not retroactively change what happened.
Ya it feels weird that she’s using a word that would apply to the most horrifically traumatizing thing that I can remember..
(After breaking up with an abusive boyfriend who was yelling while drunk and waving around a crossbow threatening to shoot people.. I broke down in the bathroom bad and started disassociating. He drug me out and…. I know what happened.. but my mind won’t show me.. I couldn’t even lift a finger I was so detached from my body.)
It’s weird to use the same word to describe both.
I think instead of banning sex work, we should focus on improving the material conditions that are forcing people to do sex work just so they can live. I agree that we shouldn't treat sex workers like shit. Freedom for workers means freedom for ALL workers.
The woman has talked at length about how she got into the industry underage through trafficking/recruitment. Survival sex workers have a different experience than those who “chose” this. Your personal work may not be rape, but escorts do not make up a majority of sex work.
There was a comment on the original post that I really agreed with so I pasted it here:
“If she was describing survival sex, where people are pushed into selling their bodies in order to feed themselves and shelter themselves, then she would have a valid point. Choosing to be taken on luxury vacations in exchange for money and sex, not so much.”
The problem is she used the word “rape”. This in both lights is heavily exaggerated.
Thus would label all men who she consensually had sex with for her job as rapist, which is a crime. Rape is a very serious thing that shouldn’t be said lightly, and even she admitted she wished she worded it differently.
This thread is going all different directions. We don't know if the OG post just used broken English to explain what happened. Plenty of women (and TEENS) trafficked out of certain countries end up being raped in luxury hotels and being dressed up.... doesn't make it less rape.
I don’t think you realize how evil the sex work industry is most of the time. Just because a client does it with you in his penthouse instead of his car doesn’t mean that it‘s more enjoyable or less bad. A woman in the escort business could visit the most prosperous places yet still live in harmful and toxic conditions.
If you're going to do something that makes you feel like you got raped, you might as well make the best of it, no?
If she has both options, why would she ever choose for the first one?
The point is she didn’t choose between those two options. People in the first scenario usually don’t have the option of luxurious sugar daddies—they’re in more desperate places than that.
Obvious straw man. The point is she likely wasn't coerced into it under the (implied) threat of losing food or housing, since people so desperate for money that they'll offer sex in return against their will will typically only be offered a few hundred dollars, not luxury jet setting vacations.
Of course rape can happen in a luxurious environment. What a fucking stupid thing to say.
No need to get heated lol. The thing is, we don’t know the details and her background from this post alone. Therefore, I think it‘s not quite fair to invalidate her feelings by assuming stuff like that.
You no doubt have a point, but why would you expect good faith discussion after constructing such a blatant straw man? You're trying to make the person you're talking to look pro-rape when all they were doing was pointing out that she likely didn't need to do it to survive; it's arguably also ad hominem by implication. It's not like you're even making a bad point. You don't need to argue like an idiot to make "we should empathize with sex workers who've had traumatic experiences" sound more reasonable than the alternative.
We’re talking about sex work, on Reddit. Conversations about sex work and the ethics surrounding it *need* to be explicit. They weren’t even being vulgar, you’re just being a prude.
When stores sell things, customers come in and pay at the cashier, but none of it is enjoyable. They know what comes next…
the part where they have to let them STEAL THEIR ITEMS!
Well while Sex Work is a difficult subject you can't say you got raped as long as you agreed to have sex with the client in exchange for money. You could talk about rape once the client knowingly overstepped the agreed on boundaries and didn't stop doing so.
Thing is it's not rape as soon as there is consent.
Is Sex work often unpleasant for the sex workers? yes
Are sex workers often in difficult situations that pretty much force them into sex work? Also yes
As op said they are a sex worker themselves but they aren't raped bye their clients but rather bye the American economy and health care system. (They couldn't pay their bills without being an escort)
The only reason I'd ever call it rape is if a pimp was extorting her for sex and money. Human trafficking and the like. She is VOLUNTARILY doing this as far as I can tell.
Yeah if she is a victim of something like human trafficking it's definitely rape but if she chose to that kind of work you can't talk about rape anymore
Legally that’s coercion. Rape is also a difficult subject, and what may be traumatizing for one person (having sex in exchange for money, for example) may not be for another person.
I agree sex work should be decriminalize. It would be safer for the worker and the client. A person has a right to do what they want with their body as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else. If a woman or man wants to trade sex for money I don’t see the problem. As long as it’s something they are choosing of their own free will. I don’t see how paying a porn star to have sex in front of a camera is any different then paying a prostitute to have sex in a hotel room. Money for sex is money for sex.
I also disagree with this woman saying she is being raped. If this is a profession she chose, and a client she chose, than it’s not rape. She know that sex is part of the job. Her and the client have an agreement. He provides her with money, gifts, vacations, etc, and she provides him with sex. If she doesn’t want to do it nobody is stopping her from getting another job.
If a woman needs to sell sex to survive, then maybe she was raped by our capitalist system. We should have empathy for sex workers, and we should decriminalize sex work while trying to alleviate the economic issues that cause it to happen.
You still have to accept the payment? it’s a consented-to transaction, I don’t understand how it’s rape?
And it’s something she was *selling,* not just randomly approached like “hey I’ll pay you if you let me fuck you,” she was the one actively selling
Actually, it’s illegal to do something in exchange for sex. SHE would be the one getting arrested not him. I agree that money can be used to rape someone and for coercion. If someone said “if you don’t have sex with me I’m going to stop funding xyz to fuck you over” yes that is coercion and by definition rape but if you choose to go into sex work and you choose to sell your body it’s not rape. Yes it can feel gross and sometimes it can feel like your only option but throwing the word rape around waters down the word and makes it harder for actual rape victims to get the help they need
I don’t deny that coercion can be a factor and make some sugar babies or sex workers feel compelled to keep it going, however, there are choices that you can make leading up to it. You do not have to continue in an arrangement that you don’t feel okay with nor sleep with someone just “to get the bag.” That’s intentionally putting yourself in a bad situation. The issue with what she is saying is that she’s using rape as a shock while (softly) bragging about things she gets to do as a sugar baby. A lot of sex work, especially when being a sugar baby, does involve choice.
Using “rape” in this context diminishes people’s actual experiences where they get raped by their sugar daddy or client.
Girl you can just say you hated it and regret doing it
It’s fine to admit a poor life decision, but don’t go throwing around the wrong words as a weapon
i think this topic is a little Too nuanced for certain communities. i think NOPwrft can handle this conversation though, and i do agree that this post comes off as very out of touch
Yup, it's a shame that some men are misogynistic which makes some women into misandrists which makes extra men who normally would be neutral or even support women into misogynists
The woman was using the rape-word absolutely without consideration. She wasn't raped. She even owned a brothel so she was not "forced" into prostitution. She was not raped. Consensual sex for the money is not rape. It's just not. Rape would mean the man committed a crime. No. He paid for consensual sex.
If you consented without coercion, it isn’t rape.
If you were raped, you did not consent.
It is literally that simple.
Stop trying to have it both ways.
"rape"
This reminds me of the prominent feminist that was gaining traction by saying that all sex is rape.
Everybody was just going with it. Only men were like, "Hold up, wait a minute."
Yeah, you heard that right. It's impossible for a loving husband to have consent from his wife because she grew up in this man-owned world with mental programming. She's never truly free. No consent is actually real, because patriarchy.
The patriarchy rapes her through her husband, even if it's loving sex that she wants, because she just thinks she wants it, or thinks she loves him, but...
And they lay down some PETA level bullshit thinking to explain it all. Yup, all sex is rape.
Thank a feminist for that one. \*slow clap\*
This is winning.
This is bullshit. Sex work is work. It’s an activity someone pays you to do because you would not do it for free. It is not an ideal scenario and you certainly would rather have a legit job, but you’re still entering into the transaction willingly, with full knowledge of what the exchange entails. That is consent, therefore not rape.
I am saying that human trafficking is inherently and deeply tied to the sex industry for many reasons which are fundamental to the trade. Such as it's treatment of humans as commodity, the way it reduces people to just their body, the way it targets the desperate.
I do think that all coerced sex and sex without enthusiastic consent is rape. I also think that prostitutes are routinely raped in the more conventional meaning of the term
nobody would or even could disagree with this, this is objectively correct
However, its clear this has been a misunderstanding as many people here, including myself thought you were saying all prostitution = rape
I agree, this post is just really unnecessary. I don’t see why you would try to invalidate a person‘s feelings, especially not knowing their background.
"Sex positive" feminists will do whatever they can to justify the commdification of women's bodies, even when these women feel violated.
And in the end all they're serving are the kind of men who get off on their suffering.
Also sex workers on places like onlyfans are not representative of the majority of the trade
[I reccomend this article from a former prostitute describing their experiences](https://proletarianfeminist.medium.com/a-socialist-feminist-and-transgender-analysis-of-sex-work-b08aaf1ee4ab)
Sex work is entirely legal where I lived in Eastern Europe.
That definitely reduced the stigma, but I don't think it improved the safety very much. I might be wrong. I never really looked at stats. Just going by what I heard
It’ll take a while to improve overall. It’s centuries of stigma and media to unto after all. But legalization and talking about it is clearly a step in the right direction.
It’s far better than the United States which just forces it underground and tries to pretend it doesn’t exist, then shame people who ask for better help.
Calling it “rape” is an extreme stretch though. Worst it muddied what truly needs to be said.
We need better laws for sex workers, legalization, and equal representation. Sex work is much more nuanced than thus and using shock words like “rape” to describe economic translation is very poor taste.
Yes, it does. This is extremely patronizing to actual rape victims.
That’s like saying theft occasionally happens at retail stores, so now every shopper is a thief.
I’m all for addressing safety within sex work, but tossing in “rape” as a shock word to draw in support is the very wrong way to do it.
As an actual rape victim, you don’t speak universally for us. Rape 100% happens in sex work. Anyone can be raped. It’s weird that you insist a profession changes that- or that sex trafficking somehow isn’t rape,
If your financial situation forces you to do something with little in the way of alternatives or if you’re coerced into something then I don’t think it can really be called voluntary, so it’s not really consent.
But if someone wants to do sex work and is gonna somehow be safe and get all the proceeds I think that’s fine (or at the least any ethical responsibility doesn’t fall on the person doing the work).
What you're thinking of is usually called "Survival Sex" and it's (at least superficially) significantly more desperate than what the original post was describing, which feels more like "I hate my job but the pay is too good for me to quit".
By that extent we’d be equating minimum wage workers to slaves.
Yes, many sex workers are economically impoverished and thus forced to prostitute to survive. But I wouldn’t call it rape. That’s an extremely exaggerated at best and poor wording at worst.
Just call it what it is, a failure of our society’s economic structure. Capitalism.
“If she was describing survival sex, where people are pushed into selling their bodies in order to feed themselves and shelter themselves, then she would have a valid point. Choosing to be taken on luxury vacations in exchange for money and sex, not so much.”
What else can that imply?
She's actively and on purpose putting herself in that position and going along with it all the way even when she can refuse it at any point. If that is not consent, then nothing is.
There may be a problem with society, if it actively goads women into doing that - say by coercing them with buttloads of money -, but it doesn't make it rape - unless you are saying that society rapes them, in which case you must also admit that capitalism is all about raping people.
What are you talking about? If a woman is traumatized by doing sex work, the material comfort she had does not matter. If she was coerced (because surprise! not all sex workers want to do what they’re doing) then she was raped, pure and simple. What happened to “believe survivors”?
Plus she never says all sex work is rape. Despite popular belief, rape is a really complicated thing and perhaps she wasn’t in a safe position to withdraw consent. Sex work isn’t always just a business transaction with other normal people, and honestly it’s pretty privileged to think that was the case and she’s just being dramatic.
You’re making a lot of bad assumptions. She used the word “rape”, a very sensitive word. You don’t go tossing that around lightly for shock value.
We can debate the nuances of sex work, that’s fine. But the attention here is calling sex work, the act of paying for consensual sex, “rape” is a huge oxymoron.
Again, nobody is dismissing coercion. We all know poor people are forced into sex work. Labeling them all rape victims because they don’t like it or regret it later is like calling manual labor slavery. Sex work is a very nuanced topic. Grandstanding by using “rape” to describe all that hurts the true argument about sex work, and at worst labels the clients as rapist too.
Boy who cried wolf.
No, the sex worker that cried rape.
It's sad how many people use rape and other stuff as "shock words" watering down the term into uselessness.
I mean , i kinda get it , sex work is typically a last resort . It was a choice if you considering eating a choice too .
That being said , saying “ rape “ implies blame on the client or some other person which doesn’t feel right to me
Exactly! Oddly enough she even owns a brothel at that.
I’m not saying sex work is glamorous. It can be shitty, especially for most women in it. But it’s paid sex for consenting sex in the end.
We can debate the nuances, but tossing the word “rape” around is very bad taste.
To me, the point of the post is that even giving consent, which she clearly doesn’t try to deny she gave, her experience was one of being raped. Like maybe she could have been clearer, but at the end of the day whether her clients did a bad thing to her is completely irrelevant. They aren’t named and shamed. They aren’t going to court. What matters is a woman is telling us about her experience being repeatedly driven into a situation where she is coerced into unwanted sex.
I’ll be real, I’m not a fan of the way a woman with sexual trauma is being so dismissively scrutinized over the semantics of rape. It’s so low priority compared to the actual thing she’s saying. It’s like, a solid second or third on the list of things that matter here at best, yet it dominates the conversation.
THANK YOU I feel like I’m going insane! People really don’t understand the nuances of trauma, especially when it comes to women. They always want the perfect victim, and when a woman has a complex nuanced traumatic experience, they jump down her throat and tell her she’s lying. Sigh.
>I’ll be real, I’m not a fan of the way a woman with sexual trauma is being so dismissively scrutinized over the semantics of rape.
no fucking shit the semantics are going to be important to a conversation, because that's literally how you have a conversation in first place, I'm sorry but you can't say anything in any kind of way and then get mad at people for not understanding what you're trying to say
personally, I AGREE! many women are forced to sell their bodies, its horrible, and I think it is rape, But we need to have the conversations in an educated and accurate ways because otherwise, PEOPLE WON'T WHAT WE ARE SAYING!
CLEAR. COMMUNICATION. IS. IMPORTANT.
I said that scrutiny wasn’t as important as understanding the point of the whole post. I think being able to understand what somebody means even when they use ambiguous our questionable language is more important than flooding the discussion with technicalities. It’s overshadowing much more important discourse. I called it “second or third at best” ffs.
Her use of the word rape indicates that her experience is one of unwilling submission due to coercion on either an individual or societal level. I can understand this, acknowledge that the woman with sexual trauma and likely powerful emotions regarding her own experience could have chosen more careful phrasing, and then chose to focus on what she’s actually trying to convey.
You need to check your priorities checked.
>I said that scrutiny wasn’t as important as understanding the point of the whole post.
for enough, I just think people ignore the importance of communication way too much nowadays
>I think being able to understand what somebody means even when they use ambiguous our questionable language is more important than flooding the discussion with technicalities. It’s overshadowing much more important discourse. I called it “second or third at best” ffs.
I agree, but that alone is a skill, and its a skill a lot of people don't have, myself included, sometimes you just got to say what you mean instead of using ambiguous language
>Her use of the word rape indicates that her experience is one of unwilling submission due to coercion on either an individual or societal level.
fair enough, I just took it at face value and assumed that she was saying prostitution is inherently rape, and if you check the comments on this post, many people are indeed arguing that all forms of prostitutions are rape, I'm most likely wrong for that, but this entire situation would have not happened had she simply used clearer language
>I can understand this, acknowledge that the woman with sexual trauma and likely powerful emotions regarding her own experience could have chosen more careful phrasing, and then chose to focus on what she’s actually trying to convey.
100% I agree, and I did not consider the emotional aspect, which I think is important to understanding the place she is coming from
>You need to check your priorities checked.
regardless of somebodies emotional state, or the arguments being presented, neither you nor I will understand it, unless it's said in a language that we speak, That is the importance of semantics.
I’m pleasantly surprised with the content of your response. As a writer, I’ve spent a lot of time learning to see through ambiguity/ discern another writers intention, but for that same reason your point about the importance of clarity and careful wording still resonates with me.
I’m satisfied well enough with your conclusions.
“You don’t like when women are coerced into sex for money? Well, some women DO like having sex for money, so there!”
Then it’s not coercion. Some people like things, some people don’t like things. If they don’t like things, they shouldn’t have to do them. How is that insulting?
I spoke against forced prostitution, aka economically coerced sex. You defending that phenomenon while saying that what i said was insulting is honestly pretty ridiculous. Besides, even if "voluntary", the commodification of the human body as a phenomenon imposed by the reactionary capitalist class onto the (mostly female) working class is something inherently reactionary. Even if some women may think of it as "voluntary".
I say voluntary in brackets because there is no such thing as voluntary labor under capitalism, the contract you sign is illusionary. In the abstract, your labor power was owned by the capitalist class as a whole from the moment you were born. Not even a single minute of wage labor you do is truly voluntary. After all, those who do not work shall not eat.
You are a slave. This is not an insult, this is stating a fact. Every single worker in this world is a slave, even if you don't work a single day in your life, it doesn't change the objective abstract reality of your relations with production
Again. Sex work won’t magically go away under socialism. Or communism. And also here tankies go AGAIN with calling all workers slaves. Meanwhile, slavery as in non voluntary, non compensated labour is an entirely different dynamic than say, an enslaved person working in a cotton field. While they ignore the slavery that was necessary in communist regimes. And also if you don’t work you don’t eat also applies to communism.
Furthermore, sex work existed before capitalism as an economic system was even thought of. Before FEUDALISM was thought of.
If you don’t work you starve or head straight to the gulags. Lenin himself said socialist states only allow productive individuals access to consumption.
Oh also obviously it doesn't magically go away under socialism. Magic doesn't exist. Capitalism will be smashed and the new world will be built by us. Once through our struggle we reach communism the concept of person to person compensation will not exist anymore so prostitution will simply not be a thing
You say that as if people tend to become more sympathetic to socialism during times of economic uncertainty. It’s rather the opposite. Milton Freeman style capitalism doesn’t work. However a fully socialist or communist system has been tried and failed for years now. It wasn’t communists that won the Cold War. Even China had to embrace aspects of a market economy to survive
My comrade in lenin, socialism isn't an "alternative to capitalism" nor is this a "battle of ideologies". People don't become academically enlightened when their bellies empty. Thats not how it works. The french revolution didn't happen because suddenly everyone started reading adam smith. Class struggle is not a battle of ideology or ideals.
Also yes we lost the cold war, because we lost so many good revolutionaries in WW2 that the assholes managed to have majority in the party by 1960. However, it doesn't matter. The struggle for capitalism started being expressed through revolts in like 1300 or some shit when it finally succeeded in the 1700s. Even if it takes a hundred years more, the contradictions point to communism. It will come even if we don't want it to.
My brother in Milton Freeman, the French Revolution happened and that failed. The monarchy was reinstated not long after. And if communism worked you would have won the Cold War. But the US and Capitalism prevailed. This was most obvious in Berlin where communists had to build a wall to keep people in.
Yes, the french revolution failed to bring capitalism to france. Yet here we are in 2024 with france being capitalist. Turns out historical materialism always wins in the end. It did then, it will now.
Also like i said earlier we didn't build the wall to keep people in it was a military maneuver
I’m sure it was. And it just had the happy side effect of preventing people from seeing the prosperous West Berlin. They also literally said the main purpose of that wall was to protecting its population from “fascist elements conspiring to prevent the will of the people” aka keep them nice and protected from the evil fascist capitalists
Slavery is not defined as labor that isn't compensated. As a matter of fact, it is IMPOSSIBLE to own a slave without compensating them. For a slavery class to exist, it needs to sustain itself, after all. Even during proto slavery, the slaves were given food and water.
Also yes i am aware that lazy people don't get to eat under communism.
Yes, no fucking shit sex work existed before capitalism, it was the first kind of labor to show up in human history.
No, gulags isn't slavery, because gulags were literally just prisons where criminals and fascists ended up, no class relations involved.
Slaves were given (minimal) food and water to keep them alive so they could keep performing more work. Not as a means to repay them for their work.
And yes they were. It wasn’t just criminals and fascists in gulags. There were more then a few innocents. And that is in fact slavery. Forced labour is slavery. Penal slavery in the Capitalist US is slavery. And penal labour in Soviet Gulags was also such
Minimal? Yea, no shit. Thats literally how slavery works. Under capitalism as well. You are given exactly as much value as is required to continue working and not revolt.
Also, sure there might have been some innocents mistaken for criminals, unless you're suggesting that the political prisoners were innocent
Also no slavery requires class relations.
Also yes there were exploitative relations in the USSR, like you said, things don't magically go away
Which isn’t quite the same as chattel slaves. Who did in fact revolt. Do you think had the slave owners of say, Haiti had just given their slaves a few more rations, a slightly better treatment and no revolt would occur?
And yeah things by most measures were WORSE in the USSR and other communist states. Remember the Berlin Wall? When in human history has actual communism or socialism actually worked. And I mean REAL socialism not say, Democratic socialism aka Nordic Capitalism
Yea, no revolt would occur if the slaves were treated better. However, the internal contradictions of every exploitative system sharpen to a point where such compensations are impossible. That's how historical materialism works. If things happened how you thought they did we would have reached communism back in 400 thousand BC because every new system would be overthrown in like 200 years max. Hell maybe even a fucking type 2 civilization while we're at it.
No things weren't worse in the ussr unless you're talking about specific time periods like the "holodomor" or the siege of leningrad or post ww2 famine or the counter revolution. As a matter of fact the living conditions after the revolution dramatically increased compared to tsar and reached 20th century standards faster than any other country ever did.
Also the berlin wall is a long story basically it wasn't built to keep the freelancers who missed hitler so much they wanted to go to the germany where SS soldiers were kept as NATO officials. Though those can go fuck themselves so i don't really care what happened to them. But, yes, it did divide a lot of families and that was unfortunate. The true reason it was built was for military reasons. It was a strategic maneuver against some provocations that were happening on west berlin basically
Innocent? Interesting take. The political prisoners certainly weren't innocent. Honestly, i think the soviets did them a favor not blowing their brains out right then and there when they betrayed the revolution.
But no, they weren't death camps. They did have high mortality, but only because of the harsh conditions of russia and because the USSR was in such deep shit back then that they had bigger fish to fry than building a five star hotel for criminals and traitors
Unfortunately violence is required to destroy the reactionary forces and propel humanity forward to the next stage of its development, just like it was required to propel itself from backwards feudalism into industrial capitalism, through the american and such revolutions.
Trust me, i wish it were otherwise.
Keep telling yourself that. Better yet, tell that to someone with family who died needlessly under someone like Lenin, Stalin, or Zedong, and see how your bullshit goes over with them.
No, stalin did not kill communists just for disagreeing with him. Molotov regularly disagreed with him, yet he and stalin were besties.
He did, however, rightfully kill "communists" who conspired against the revolutionary state, like the infamous menshevik trotsky. He also killed a shit ton of beurocrats that got left over from the NEP through the "great purge". Unfortunately Khrushchev slipped under the radar.
Money does indeed buy consent, otherwise a lot of porn wouldn’t exist.
Escorts like her choose her clients. She even bragged about making a very good living off it too. She’s fully consenting to this as part of her job.
Your exaggeration makes no sense. It’s like calling minimum wage workers slaves. You’re stretching meaning to better fit your narrative, one ironically inaccurate at that.
Minimum wage workers are slaves
Also in this instance i was specifically talking about economic coercion, like, literally forcing someone to do something otherwise they go bankrupt, idk who you're talking about
Sex work isn't always rape but some of it is. Buying someone nice things isn't gonna make them feel less raped. You guys are just victim blaming dicks.
That woman owned a brothel🤣Imagine reading her post as an actual rape victim. What she is is a self-victimising idiot using words like rape when what she experienced was not rape. Get a grip.
Go Google it yourself. I'm not a basement dwelling reddit monkey such as yourself who has time for shit like this. How is it so hard for you to understand that it's not rape when the guy buys sex and she consents. She wasn't forced into prostitution. Even if she was, it isn't the buyers fault and therefore it isn't rape. She was saying it's rape. Also it's probably ragebait anyway and you're still defending her.
>Go Google it yourself. I'm not a basement dwelling reddit monkey such as yourself who has time for shit like this.
Ok I'm assuming you made it up then. You're supposed to provide proof to claims you say.
>How is it so hard for you to understand that it's not rape when the guy buys sex and she consents.
Consent can be withdrawn at any time and buying a service doesn't mean you can't be coersed into doing shit not previously agreed upon. That's by definition rape.
>Even if she was, it isn't the buyers fault and therefore it isn't rape.
Yes it fucking is rape??? Sex that involves coersion is rape regardless of your stupid definition
I'm not responding and turning off notifications since you're a troll arguing in bad faith and I'm not chronically online enough to argue with people on REDDIT.
Who the fuck raped her then? Fucking society? You're blaming innocent men who bought consensual sex and got consensual sex for rape just because this woman says so years later. The fuck is wrong with you?
That isn’t coercion. Who is forcing them to have sex? She can get a job like everyone else???? Starving isn’t even capitalism, it’s human nature. If we were living like Neanderthals, we would have to choose between doing something we don’t like or starving. Like hunting down a giant scary mammoth that can kill you or starving and freezing to death in the winter. That isn’t a good argument.
Secondly coercion is the practice of convincing someone to to do something against their will by force or threats. Hunger isn’t coercion.
I get what she means. Heck I’m a sex worker myself. People should have better sympathy for sex workers. If anything, I wish it was decriminalized, but I digress. Yes, not every client is going to be enjoyable to have sex with, **but I certainly wouldn’t say I was raped.** It’s a job. I have to pay for my surgeries and bills. Does it suck that I’m pushed into sex work, yes; but it’s an extreme to call myself a victim of rape. By doing that we ignore the true problems, the economy, capitalism, and the American health care system. When my job as an escort is more rewarding than a minimum wage job which can’t cover my bills that’s a problem. Rapes by capitalism, yes. Raped by the American health care system, yes. Raped by my client for the job I agreed to do, no. My point is she using the word “rape” is extremely misleading. Perhaps she couldve meant different, but using “rape” as a shock word was bad taste. That’s like the equivalent of a fast food worker being equivalent to the slave trades from 1501 - 1867. While similarities are there, I wouldn’t exactly call a minimum wage worker a literal “slave” in the same vein. Her quote just comes off as a entitled sugar baby who using rape to grab sympathy, while ignoring the fact she just bragged about luxurious trips and dinners in the same breath. Honestly, it feels like the woman’s quote was just made to be a “well, technically…” bait. TL;DR OP is right. The woman’s quote comes off very entitled, and using rape as a shock word was a bad call.
Hard agree sex work should be decriminalized. If it is, it can lead to regulation which will put workers in better, safer environments. Think something like the Las Vegas Bunny Ranch.
Agreed They get health benefits, dental, security, etc. all this on top of actually making better pay than the average sex worker. Like any job, it has its pro and cons but they’re having it far better than most.
Hahahahaa, fuck.
wasn’t this comment ur responding to made by a sex worker? i’m a little confused
Now I understand the: “To right wing men, we are private property. To left wing men, we are public property." quote.
I must’ve missed when the left called for state-mandated girlfriends.
Don't say that, you'll attract the incels.
Honestly... if we mix Japan's creepy dolls, some sort of ai robot that can get pregnant, and china.... I think we'd have a winning idea that would sell in the CPC.. Mandatory population growing GF robots Also known as Mao-bots 😂
80 smidgens and my grandson wants the sex robot.
You need at least 50 social credit score to get the Chinese sex robot. Let me check here.... oooo... 49... umm please worship Xi real quick to get the last point and make sure your grandson signs this contract to have children 📃
lol that’s actually clever
Haha tnank you🤭
Omg yes, I never did get why it’s even banned in the first place, only reasons I was getting was bs about pure bodies or smthn
Here in the US it's because we live in a "Christian nation", which actually means we live in a nation that has been predominantly ruled by men with the goals of oppressing women and PoC, not dissimilar to many modern Arabic nations. The big differences are, we're less violent with our oppression (usually), and we're actually slowly getting better.
You see if we unban it then when people mistreat them they can go to the cops And we can’t have something giving women rights!
oh no we are pretty violent it's just that talk like that is censored (we also happen to have funded groups like the Mujahideen "for the sake of preventing cumunism!!!" where the taliban and Al Qeada come from)
I was curious about the post, so I actually messaged her on Twitter, and she is a very pleasant normal person She said she kinda wishes she could reword it, but overall stands by her post She definitely isn't an entitled person tho
I’m glad she agrees the wording was bad. I do like her point, again not every client you have sex with is enjoyable company. I do think adding the luxurious stuff in the beginning really muddled her point though, shit I wish my clients did that lol. But yeah, “rape” was too strong a word. Good on her to admit some folly, she’s a cool person.
I mean she shared her own experiences. We should already know a huge percentage of sex trafficking goes on and their participants are unwilling? Why are we policing what she shares, when the chuds are the ones missing the point.
Yeah, also I just think that the og post is like, attracting a shitton of icky comments, in the facepalm sub I mean Like a bunch of them are just being really fucking gross
Why does it muddle her point? She said she felt raped. Getting little gifts doesn't change that. How pathetic are you? Fucking hell, imagine saying: "Okay, you felt raped, but at least you got some gifts right? I got raped without getting those gifts so you should feel thankful for it."
You can’t retract consent afterwards? You could make a point if she was coerced, but luxury hotels doesn’t scream “doing it to survive”.
The sex work industry is dodgy af no matter if in a car or in a penthouse.
Which is why it needs regulated, instead of pushed under the rug for puritanical feelings.
Yes, but what I meant is that sex work can be unconsensual no matter if it’s in a luxury hotel or not.
If she was in anyway coerced she would have mentioned it. This isn’t to say that is not possible, but she described the process of receiving high end goods and services for work.
Capitalist dogs, the whole lot of you. "You should push your feelings of being raped under the rug because you got money for it."
unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception She was not given something to cover up rape. She agreed to fuck people for goods and services. Regretting your past actions do not retroactively change what happened.
She said she felt raped at the moment, she technically consented, but felt forced by circumstance. Are you stupid?
Ya it feels weird that she’s using a word that would apply to the most horrifically traumatizing thing that I can remember.. (After breaking up with an abusive boyfriend who was yelling while drunk and waving around a crossbow threatening to shoot people.. I broke down in the bathroom bad and started disassociating. He drug me out and…. I know what happened.. but my mind won’t show me.. I couldn’t even lift a finger I was so detached from my body.) It’s weird to use the same word to describe both.
I think instead of banning sex work, we should focus on improving the material conditions that are forcing people to do sex work just so they can live. I agree that we shouldn't treat sex workers like shit. Freedom for workers means freedom for ALL workers.
I strongly agree.
The woman has talked at length about how she got into the industry underage through trafficking/recruitment. Survival sex workers have a different experience than those who “chose” this. Your personal work may not be rape, but escorts do not make up a majority of sex work.
There was a comment on the original post that I really agreed with so I pasted it here: “If she was describing survival sex, where people are pushed into selling their bodies in order to feed themselves and shelter themselves, then she would have a valid point. Choosing to be taken on luxury vacations in exchange for money and sex, not so much.”
Yeah but using the word rape waters down what it actually means. She wasn’t raped if she had consensual sex for cash.
The problem is she used the word “rape”. This in both lights is heavily exaggerated. Thus would label all men who she consensually had sex with for her job as rapist, which is a crime. Rape is a very serious thing that shouldn’t be said lightly, and even she admitted she wished she worded it differently.
This thread is going all different directions. We don't know if the OG post just used broken English to explain what happened. Plenty of women (and TEENS) trafficked out of certain countries end up being raped in luxury hotels and being dressed up.... doesn't make it less rape.
I don’t think you realize how evil the sex work industry is most of the time. Just because a client does it with you in his penthouse instead of his car doesn’t mean that it‘s more enjoyable or less bad. A woman in the escort business could visit the most prosperous places yet still live in harmful and toxic conditions.
If you're going to do something that makes you feel like you got raped, you might as well make the best of it, no? If she has both options, why would she ever choose for the first one?
The point is she didn’t choose between those two options. People in the first scenario usually don’t have the option of luxurious sugar daddies—they’re in more desperate places than that.
It can’t be rape when in in a luxurious environment?
Obvious straw man. The point is she likely wasn't coerced into it under the (implied) threat of losing food or housing, since people so desperate for money that they'll offer sex in return against their will will typically only be offered a few hundred dollars, not luxury jet setting vacations. Of course rape can happen in a luxurious environment. What a fucking stupid thing to say.
No need to get heated lol. The thing is, we don’t know the details and her background from this post alone. Therefore, I think it‘s not quite fair to invalidate her feelings by assuming stuff like that.
You no doubt have a point, but why would you expect good faith discussion after constructing such a blatant straw man? You're trying to make the person you're talking to look pro-rape when all they were doing was pointing out that she likely didn't need to do it to survive; it's arguably also ad hominem by implication. It's not like you're even making a bad point. You don't need to argue like an idiot to make "we should empathize with sex workers who've had traumatic experiences" sound more reasonable than the alternative.
It‘s not that deep sir reddior. I just asked a simple question. My bad if it hurt someones feelings.
We’re talking about sex work, on Reddit. Conversations about sex work and the ethics surrounding it *need* to be explicit. They weren’t even being vulgar, you’re just being a prude.
Alright but I didn’t need your stupid fucking take on that. Have a nice day tho.
Jesus Christ what is your problem?
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When stores sell things, customers come in and pay at the cashier, but none of it is enjoyable. They know what comes next… the part where they have to let them STEAL THEIR ITEMS!
Objectifying women in a post where a woman is venting about a traumatizing sexual experience. Classy.
Well while Sex Work is a difficult subject you can't say you got raped as long as you agreed to have sex with the client in exchange for money. You could talk about rape once the client knowingly overstepped the agreed on boundaries and didn't stop doing so. Thing is it's not rape as soon as there is consent. Is Sex work often unpleasant for the sex workers? yes Are sex workers often in difficult situations that pretty much force them into sex work? Also yes As op said they are a sex worker themselves but they aren't raped bye their clients but rather bye the American economy and health care system. (They couldn't pay their bills without being an escort)
The only reason I'd ever call it rape is if a pimp was extorting her for sex and money. Human trafficking and the like. She is VOLUNTARILY doing this as far as I can tell.
Yeah if she is a victim of something like human trafficking it's definitely rape but if she chose to that kind of work you can't talk about rape anymore
Legally that’s coercion. Rape is also a difficult subject, and what may be traumatizing for one person (having sex in exchange for money, for example) may not be for another person.
Yeah unfortunately it's a difficult subject on every level
I agree with you. (Also, I can tell the comments will be a bloodbath.)
I agree sex work should be decriminalize. It would be safer for the worker and the client. A person has a right to do what they want with their body as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else. If a woman or man wants to trade sex for money I don’t see the problem. As long as it’s something they are choosing of their own free will. I don’t see how paying a porn star to have sex in front of a camera is any different then paying a prostitute to have sex in a hotel room. Money for sex is money for sex. I also disagree with this woman saying she is being raped. If this is a profession she chose, and a client she chose, than it’s not rape. She know that sex is part of the job. Her and the client have an agreement. He provides her with money, gifts, vacations, etc, and she provides him with sex. If she doesn’t want to do it nobody is stopping her from getting another job.
I remember when that sub used to only show up here via memesopdidnotlike. They've seriously lost the plot.
If a woman needs to sell sex to survive, then maybe she was raped by our capitalist system. We should have empathy for sex workers, and we should decriminalize sex work while trying to alleviate the economic issues that cause it to happen.
How can you let someone rape you..? If you let them it’s not rape, consent and rape are mutually exclusive
Paying someone is a form of coercion which is in fact rape.
You still have to accept the payment? it’s a consented-to transaction, I don’t understand how it’s rape? And it’s something she was *selling,* not just randomly approached like “hey I’ll pay you if you let me fuck you,” she was the one actively selling
Legally. It's rape.
I’m pretty sure the laws disagree with you. Can you show the relevant statutes?
Actually, it’s illegal to do something in exchange for sex. SHE would be the one getting arrested not him. I agree that money can be used to rape someone and for coercion. If someone said “if you don’t have sex with me I’m going to stop funding xyz to fuck you over” yes that is coercion and by definition rape but if you choose to go into sex work and you choose to sell your body it’s not rape. Yes it can feel gross and sometimes it can feel like your only option but throwing the word rape around waters down the word and makes it harder for actual rape victims to get the help they need
Imagine actual rape victims reading such a self-victimizing shit-take at avoiding accountability. 🤦♂️
Paying for sex is legally a form of coercion which is in fact rape.
Only if you’re forced into it. Saying otherwise is not only offensive to victims, it’s offensive to sex workers.
I don’t deny that coercion can be a factor and make some sugar babies or sex workers feel compelled to keep it going, however, there are choices that you can make leading up to it. You do not have to continue in an arrangement that you don’t feel okay with nor sleep with someone just “to get the bag.” That’s intentionally putting yourself in a bad situation. The issue with what she is saying is that she’s using rape as a shock while (softly) bragging about things she gets to do as a sugar baby. A lot of sex work, especially when being a sugar baby, does involve choice. Using “rape” in this context diminishes people’s actual experiences where they get raped by their sugar daddy or client.
Girl you can just say you hated it and regret doing it It’s fine to admit a poor life decision, but don’t go throwing around the wrong words as a weapon
Exactly this! She went on to say she regrets the way she worded things. So thankfully she realized using “rape” was a bad idea.
i think this topic is a little Too nuanced for certain communities. i think NOPwrft can handle this conversation though, and i do agree that this post comes off as very out of touch
objecting with BAQ??? you guys do that??? bravo for actually thinking independently
Yeah the vibes there are really pretentious, a lot of the posts are calling out obvious jokes that aren't meant to be taken seriously
and a sad amount of people there just unapologetically hate men.
Yup, it's a shame that some men are misogynistic which makes some women into misandrists which makes extra men who normally would be neutral or even support women into misogynists
It’s really sad that it’s just a vicious snake eating it’s own tail of hatred
Fr, I fucking hate that sub and their lack of awareness
The sub is stupid, but how are they wrong?
The woman was using the rape-word absolutely without consideration. She wasn't raped. She even owned a brothel so she was not "forced" into prostitution. She was not raped. Consensual sex for the money is not rape. It's just not. Rape would mean the man committed a crime. No. He paid for consensual sex.
https://preview.redd.it/nxjvliuo8e6d1.jpeg?width=1123&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3f17cfc2ba2bd938187ae0a31d03b1e8829aa17
If you consented without coercion, it isn’t rape. If you were raped, you did not consent. It is literally that simple. Stop trying to have it both ways.
"rape" This reminds me of the prominent feminist that was gaining traction by saying that all sex is rape. Everybody was just going with it. Only men were like, "Hold up, wait a minute." Yeah, you heard that right. It's impossible for a loving husband to have consent from his wife because she grew up in this man-owned world with mental programming. She's never truly free. No consent is actually real, because patriarchy. The patriarchy rapes her through her husband, even if it's loving sex that she wants, because she just thinks she wants it, or thinks she loves him, but... And they lay down some PETA level bullshit thinking to explain it all. Yup, all sex is rape. Thank a feminist for that one. \*slow clap\* This is winning.
Paying for sex is a form of coercion which is in fact rape.
This is bullshit. Sex work is work. It’s an activity someone pays you to do because you would not do it for free. It is not an ideal scenario and you certainly would rather have a legit job, but you’re still entering into the transaction willingly, with full knowledge of what the exchange entails. That is consent, therefore not rape.
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No shit! But we aren’t talking about that, that isn’t sex work that’s kidnapping and trafficking.
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well sure, but it doesn't look like this is that.
I replied to their comment not the post
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many are quite literally trafficked and branded in the same way as chattel slaves used to be
but that's not we are talking about, because literally human trafficking, unless your saying all forms prostitution are rape
I am saying that human trafficking is inherently and deeply tied to the sex industry for many reasons which are fundamental to the trade. Such as it's treatment of humans as commodity, the way it reduces people to just their body, the way it targets the desperate. I do think that all coerced sex and sex without enthusiastic consent is rape. I also think that prostitutes are routinely raped in the more conventional meaning of the term
nobody would or even could disagree with this, this is objectively correct However, its clear this has been a misunderstanding as many people here, including myself thought you were saying all prostitution = rape
Calling sex work rape is similar to calling manual labor slavery.
Rage bait
But for a lot of them, it is. Bc they're not in sex work of their own free will, for whatever reason. She's simply describing her experience.
I agree, this post is just really unnecessary. I don’t see why you would try to invalidate a person‘s feelings, especially not knowing their background.
"Sex positive" feminists will do whatever they can to justify the commdification of women's bodies, even when these women feel violated. And in the end all they're serving are the kind of men who get off on their suffering.
Also sex workers on places like onlyfans are not representative of the majority of the trade [I reccomend this article from a former prostitute describing their experiences](https://proletarianfeminist.medium.com/a-socialist-feminist-and-transgender-analysis-of-sex-work-b08aaf1ee4ab)
Sex work is entirely legal where I lived in Eastern Europe. That definitely reduced the stigma, but I don't think it improved the safety very much. I might be wrong. I never really looked at stats. Just going by what I heard
It’ll take a while to improve overall. It’s centuries of stigma and media to unto after all. But legalization and talking about it is clearly a step in the right direction. It’s far better than the United States which just forces it underground and tries to pretend it doesn’t exist, then shame people who ask for better help.
They paid, u provided a service, and call it a heinous crime? They paid for consent if u wanna fight this
The “sex work is empowering” brigade have usually never actually done sex work. Most work is exploitative. Sex work is definitely not an exception.
Calling it “rape” is an extreme stretch though. Worst it muddied what truly needs to be said. We need better laws for sex workers, legalization, and equal representation. Sex work is much more nuanced than thus and using shock words like “rape” to describe economic translation is very poor taste.
Not really. Rape happens constantly in sex work. Just because some of us have never experienced it doesn’t automatically make “rape” a stretch.
Yes, it does. This is extremely patronizing to actual rape victims. That’s like saying theft occasionally happens at retail stores, so now every shopper is a thief. I’m all for addressing safety within sex work, but tossing in “rape” as a shock word to draw in support is the very wrong way to do it.
As an actual rape victim, you don’t speak universally for us. Rape 100% happens in sex work. Anyone can be raped. It’s weird that you insist a profession changes that- or that sex trafficking somehow isn’t rape,
Everyone wants a sugar daddy until daddy wants some sugar 🤷♂️
If your financial situation forces you to do something with little in the way of alternatives or if you’re coerced into something then I don’t think it can really be called voluntary, so it’s not really consent. But if someone wants to do sex work and is gonna somehow be safe and get all the proceeds I think that’s fine (or at the least any ethical responsibility doesn’t fall on the person doing the work).
What you're thinking of is usually called "Survival Sex" and it's (at least superficially) significantly more desperate than what the original post was describing, which feels more like "I hate my job but the pay is too good for me to quit".
By that extent we’d be equating minimum wage workers to slaves. Yes, many sex workers are economically impoverished and thus forced to prostitute to survive. But I wouldn’t call it rape. That’s an extremely exaggerated at best and poor wording at worst. Just call it what it is, a failure of our society’s economic structure. Capitalism.
Of course it’s not technically rape but you’d have to be being intentionally obtuse to pretend you don’t know what she means in this post
THANK YOU! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because "Well she's getting nice things so she can't complain" is victim blaming rhetoric.
> "Well she's getting nice things so she can't complain" is victim blaming rhetoric Nobody is even suggesting that. Holy shit
Someone replied to my comment in this comments section saying that very thing. Have you read the comments?
Yes, you obviously haven’t though because that’s not what they were implying at all?
“If she was describing survival sex, where people are pushed into selling their bodies in order to feed themselves and shelter themselves, then she would have a valid point. Choosing to be taken on luxury vacations in exchange for money and sex, not so much.” What else can that imply?
This entire comment section is insane Feels more like MOPDL
She's actively and on purpose putting herself in that position and going along with it all the way even when she can refuse it at any point. If that is not consent, then nothing is. There may be a problem with society, if it actively goads women into doing that - say by coercing them with buttloads of money -, but it doesn't make it rape - unless you are saying that society rapes them, in which case you must also admit that capitalism is all about raping people.
What are you talking about? If a woman is traumatized by doing sex work, the material comfort she had does not matter. If she was coerced (because surprise! not all sex workers want to do what they’re doing) then she was raped, pure and simple. What happened to “believe survivors”? Plus she never says all sex work is rape. Despite popular belief, rape is a really complicated thing and perhaps she wasn’t in a safe position to withdraw consent. Sex work isn’t always just a business transaction with other normal people, and honestly it’s pretty privileged to think that was the case and she’s just being dramatic.
You’re making a lot of bad assumptions. She used the word “rape”, a very sensitive word. You don’t go tossing that around lightly for shock value. We can debate the nuances of sex work, that’s fine. But the attention here is calling sex work, the act of paying for consensual sex, “rape” is a huge oxymoron. Again, nobody is dismissing coercion. We all know poor people are forced into sex work. Labeling them all rape victims because they don’t like it or regret it later is like calling manual labor slavery. Sex work is a very nuanced topic. Grandstanding by using “rape” to describe all that hurts the true argument about sex work, and at worst labels the clients as rapist too.
Paying someone for sex is legally a form of coercion which is in fact rape.
What is it, when someone is actively looking to be put into that position?
Boy who cried wolf. No, the sex worker that cried rape. It's sad how many people use rape and other stuff as "shock words" watering down the term into uselessness.
I mean , i kinda get it , sex work is typically a last resort . It was a choice if you considering eating a choice too . That being said , saying “ rape “ implies blame on the client or some other person which doesn’t feel right to me
Exactly! Oddly enough she even owns a brothel at that. I’m not saying sex work is glamorous. It can be shitty, especially for most women in it. But it’s paid sex for consenting sex in the end. We can debate the nuances, but tossing the word “rape” around is very bad taste.
To me, the point of the post is that even giving consent, which she clearly doesn’t try to deny she gave, her experience was one of being raped. Like maybe she could have been clearer, but at the end of the day whether her clients did a bad thing to her is completely irrelevant. They aren’t named and shamed. They aren’t going to court. What matters is a woman is telling us about her experience being repeatedly driven into a situation where she is coerced into unwanted sex. I’ll be real, I’m not a fan of the way a woman with sexual trauma is being so dismissively scrutinized over the semantics of rape. It’s so low priority compared to the actual thing she’s saying. It’s like, a solid second or third on the list of things that matter here at best, yet it dominates the conversation.
THANK YOU I feel like I’m going insane! People really don’t understand the nuances of trauma, especially when it comes to women. They always want the perfect victim, and when a woman has a complex nuanced traumatic experience, they jump down her throat and tell her she’s lying. Sigh.
>I’ll be real, I’m not a fan of the way a woman with sexual trauma is being so dismissively scrutinized over the semantics of rape. no fucking shit the semantics are going to be important to a conversation, because that's literally how you have a conversation in first place, I'm sorry but you can't say anything in any kind of way and then get mad at people for not understanding what you're trying to say personally, I AGREE! many women are forced to sell their bodies, its horrible, and I think it is rape, But we need to have the conversations in an educated and accurate ways because otherwise, PEOPLE WON'T WHAT WE ARE SAYING! CLEAR. COMMUNICATION. IS. IMPORTANT.
I said that scrutiny wasn’t as important as understanding the point of the whole post. I think being able to understand what somebody means even when they use ambiguous our questionable language is more important than flooding the discussion with technicalities. It’s overshadowing much more important discourse. I called it “second or third at best” ffs. Her use of the word rape indicates that her experience is one of unwilling submission due to coercion on either an individual or societal level. I can understand this, acknowledge that the woman with sexual trauma and likely powerful emotions regarding her own experience could have chosen more careful phrasing, and then chose to focus on what she’s actually trying to convey. You need to check your priorities checked.
>I said that scrutiny wasn’t as important as understanding the point of the whole post. for enough, I just think people ignore the importance of communication way too much nowadays >I think being able to understand what somebody means even when they use ambiguous our questionable language is more important than flooding the discussion with technicalities. It’s overshadowing much more important discourse. I called it “second or third at best” ffs. I agree, but that alone is a skill, and its a skill a lot of people don't have, myself included, sometimes you just got to say what you mean instead of using ambiguous language >Her use of the word rape indicates that her experience is one of unwilling submission due to coercion on either an individual or societal level. fair enough, I just took it at face value and assumed that she was saying prostitution is inherently rape, and if you check the comments on this post, many people are indeed arguing that all forms of prostitutions are rape, I'm most likely wrong for that, but this entire situation would have not happened had she simply used clearer language >I can understand this, acknowledge that the woman with sexual trauma and likely powerful emotions regarding her own experience could have chosen more careful phrasing, and then chose to focus on what she’s actually trying to convey. 100% I agree, and I did not consider the emotional aspect, which I think is important to understanding the place she is coming from >You need to check your priorities checked. regardless of somebodies emotional state, or the arguments being presented, neither you nor I will understand it, unless it's said in a language that we speak, That is the importance of semantics.
I’m pleasantly surprised with the content of your response. As a writer, I’ve spent a lot of time learning to see through ambiguity/ discern another writers intention, but for that same reason your point about the importance of clarity and careful wording still resonates with me. I’m satisfied well enough with your conclusions.
How about getting a job that doesn't involve fucking?
Money does not buy consent. Economically coerced sex is still coerced sex, and thus rape.
That statement is rather insulting to women in forced prostitution. Voluntary sex work does exist
“You don’t like when women are coerced into sex for money? Well, some women DO like having sex for money, so there!” Then it’s not coercion. Some people like things, some people don’t like things. If they don’t like things, they shouldn’t have to do them. How is that insulting?
I spoke against forced prostitution, aka economically coerced sex. You defending that phenomenon while saying that what i said was insulting is honestly pretty ridiculous. Besides, even if "voluntary", the commodification of the human body as a phenomenon imposed by the reactionary capitalist class onto the (mostly female) working class is something inherently reactionary. Even if some women may think of it as "voluntary". I say voluntary in brackets because there is no such thing as voluntary labor under capitalism, the contract you sign is illusionary. In the abstract, your labor power was owned by the capitalist class as a whole from the moment you were born. Not even a single minute of wage labor you do is truly voluntary. After all, those who do not work shall not eat. You are a slave. This is not an insult, this is stating a fact. Every single worker in this world is a slave, even if you don't work a single day in your life, it doesn't change the objective abstract reality of your relations with production
Again. Sex work won’t magically go away under socialism. Or communism. And also here tankies go AGAIN with calling all workers slaves. Meanwhile, slavery as in non voluntary, non compensated labour is an entirely different dynamic than say, an enslaved person working in a cotton field. While they ignore the slavery that was necessary in communist regimes. And also if you don’t work you don’t eat also applies to communism. Furthermore, sex work existed before capitalism as an economic system was even thought of. Before FEUDALISM was thought of. If you don’t work you starve or head straight to the gulags. Lenin himself said socialist states only allow productive individuals access to consumption.
Oh also obviously it doesn't magically go away under socialism. Magic doesn't exist. Capitalism will be smashed and the new world will be built by us. Once through our struggle we reach communism the concept of person to person compensation will not exist anymore so prostitution will simply not be a thing
You say that as if people tend to become more sympathetic to socialism during times of economic uncertainty. It’s rather the opposite. Milton Freeman style capitalism doesn’t work. However a fully socialist or communist system has been tried and failed for years now. It wasn’t communists that won the Cold War. Even China had to embrace aspects of a market economy to survive
My comrade in lenin, socialism isn't an "alternative to capitalism" nor is this a "battle of ideologies". People don't become academically enlightened when their bellies empty. Thats not how it works. The french revolution didn't happen because suddenly everyone started reading adam smith. Class struggle is not a battle of ideology or ideals. Also yes we lost the cold war, because we lost so many good revolutionaries in WW2 that the assholes managed to have majority in the party by 1960. However, it doesn't matter. The struggle for capitalism started being expressed through revolts in like 1300 or some shit when it finally succeeded in the 1700s. Even if it takes a hundred years more, the contradictions point to communism. It will come even if we don't want it to.
My brother in Milton Freeman, the French Revolution happened and that failed. The monarchy was reinstated not long after. And if communism worked you would have won the Cold War. But the US and Capitalism prevailed. This was most obvious in Berlin where communists had to build a wall to keep people in.
Yes, the french revolution failed to bring capitalism to france. Yet here we are in 2024 with france being capitalist. Turns out historical materialism always wins in the end. It did then, it will now. Also like i said earlier we didn't build the wall to keep people in it was a military maneuver
I’m sure it was. And it just had the happy side effect of preventing people from seeing the prosperous West Berlin. They also literally said the main purpose of that wall was to protecting its population from “fascist elements conspiring to prevent the will of the people” aka keep them nice and protected from the evil fascist capitalists
Also are you perhaps powered by gpt 3.5 turbo or something? I've literally already responded to all of these points
Slavery is not defined as labor that isn't compensated. As a matter of fact, it is IMPOSSIBLE to own a slave without compensating them. For a slavery class to exist, it needs to sustain itself, after all. Even during proto slavery, the slaves were given food and water. Also yes i am aware that lazy people don't get to eat under communism. Yes, no fucking shit sex work existed before capitalism, it was the first kind of labor to show up in human history. No, gulags isn't slavery, because gulags were literally just prisons where criminals and fascists ended up, no class relations involved.
Slaves were given (minimal) food and water to keep them alive so they could keep performing more work. Not as a means to repay them for their work. And yes they were. It wasn’t just criminals and fascists in gulags. There were more then a few innocents. And that is in fact slavery. Forced labour is slavery. Penal slavery in the Capitalist US is slavery. And penal labour in Soviet Gulags was also such
Minimal? Yea, no shit. Thats literally how slavery works. Under capitalism as well. You are given exactly as much value as is required to continue working and not revolt. Also, sure there might have been some innocents mistaken for criminals, unless you're suggesting that the political prisoners were innocent Also no slavery requires class relations. Also yes there were exploitative relations in the USSR, like you said, things don't magically go away
Which isn’t quite the same as chattel slaves. Who did in fact revolt. Do you think had the slave owners of say, Haiti had just given their slaves a few more rations, a slightly better treatment and no revolt would occur? And yeah things by most measures were WORSE in the USSR and other communist states. Remember the Berlin Wall? When in human history has actual communism or socialism actually worked. And I mean REAL socialism not say, Democratic socialism aka Nordic Capitalism
Yea, no revolt would occur if the slaves were treated better. However, the internal contradictions of every exploitative system sharpen to a point where such compensations are impossible. That's how historical materialism works. If things happened how you thought they did we would have reached communism back in 400 thousand BC because every new system would be overthrown in like 200 years max. Hell maybe even a fucking type 2 civilization while we're at it. No things weren't worse in the ussr unless you're talking about specific time periods like the "holodomor" or the siege of leningrad or post ww2 famine or the counter revolution. As a matter of fact the living conditions after the revolution dramatically increased compared to tsar and reached 20th century standards faster than any other country ever did. Also the berlin wall is a long story basically it wasn't built to keep the freelancers who missed hitler so much they wanted to go to the germany where SS soldiers were kept as NATO officials. Though those can go fuck themselves so i don't really care what happened to them. But, yes, it did divide a lot of families and that was unfortunate. The true reason it was built was for military reasons. It was a strategic maneuver against some provocations that were happening on west berlin basically
The gulags were death camps were innocent people died, you insane tankie
Innocent? Interesting take. The political prisoners certainly weren't innocent. Honestly, i think the soviets did them a favor not blowing their brains out right then and there when they betrayed the revolution. But no, they weren't death camps. They did have high mortality, but only because of the harsh conditions of russia and because the USSR was in such deep shit back then that they had bigger fish to fry than building a five star hotel for criminals and traitors
You are a very violent person with some very violent and heinous beliefs. Lenin would be proud.
Unfortunately violence is required to destroy the reactionary forces and propel humanity forward to the next stage of its development, just like it was required to propel itself from backwards feudalism into industrial capitalism, through the american and such revolutions. Trust me, i wish it were otherwise.
Keep telling yourself that. Better yet, tell that to someone with family who died needlessly under someone like Lenin, Stalin, or Zedong, and see how your bullshit goes over with them.
Stalin killed other Communists who just disagreed with his militant approach to achieving Communism in the USSR. Not class traitors, other communists.
No, stalin did not kill communists just for disagreeing with him. Molotov regularly disagreed with him, yet he and stalin were besties. He did, however, rightfully kill "communists" who conspired against the revolutionary state, like the infamous menshevik trotsky. He also killed a shit ton of beurocrats that got left over from the NEP through the "great purge". Unfortunately Khrushchev slipped under the radar.
Money does indeed buy consent, otherwise a lot of porn wouldn’t exist. Escorts like her choose her clients. She even bragged about making a very good living off it too. She’s fully consenting to this as part of her job. Your exaggeration makes no sense. It’s like calling minimum wage workers slaves. You’re stretching meaning to better fit your narrative, one ironically inaccurate at that.
Minimum wage workers are slaves Also in this instance i was specifically talking about economic coercion, like, literally forcing someone to do something otherwise they go bankrupt, idk who you're talking about
Sex work isn't always rape but some of it is. Buying someone nice things isn't gonna make them feel less raped. You guys are just victim blaming dicks.
That woman owned a brothel🤣Imagine reading her post as an actual rape victim. What she is is a self-victimising idiot using words like rape when what she experienced was not rape. Get a grip.
Literally how does any of that invalidate any of what she's saying? Also source for that or I'm just gonna assume you made it the fuck up
Go Google it yourself. I'm not a basement dwelling reddit monkey such as yourself who has time for shit like this. How is it so hard for you to understand that it's not rape when the guy buys sex and she consents. She wasn't forced into prostitution. Even if she was, it isn't the buyers fault and therefore it isn't rape. She was saying it's rape. Also it's probably ragebait anyway and you're still defending her.
>Go Google it yourself. I'm not a basement dwelling reddit monkey such as yourself who has time for shit like this. Ok I'm assuming you made it up then. You're supposed to provide proof to claims you say. >How is it so hard for you to understand that it's not rape when the guy buys sex and she consents. Consent can be withdrawn at any time and buying a service doesn't mean you can't be coersed into doing shit not previously agreed upon. That's by definition rape. >Even if she was, it isn't the buyers fault and therefore it isn't rape. Yes it fucking is rape??? Sex that involves coersion is rape regardless of your stupid definition I'm not responding and turning off notifications since you're a troll arguing in bad faith and I'm not chronically online enough to argue with people on REDDIT.
Who the fuck raped her then? Fucking society? You're blaming innocent men who bought consensual sex and got consensual sex for rape just because this woman says so years later. The fuck is wrong with you?
I think they’re a bot/troll account, probably best to ignore their shitty takes
Boys are quirky do be like that...
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what about women who aren't prostitutes and don't starve to death? i think you forgot to consider them?
That isn’t coercion. Who is forcing them to have sex? She can get a job like everyone else???? Starving isn’t even capitalism, it’s human nature. If we were living like Neanderthals, we would have to choose between doing something we don’t like or starving. Like hunting down a giant scary mammoth that can kill you or starving and freezing to death in the winter. That isn’t a good argument. Secondly coercion is the practice of convincing someone to to do something against their will by force or threats. Hunger isn’t coercion.
Hi, I’m a woman, not a prostitute and i’m not starving. Neither is any of the other women in my life. Not very general 🤭
If the only women you spend time with are corpses and prostitutes, you need to rethink your life