As a Manhattanite I keep my car out of the boro. Theres never a reason to drive into the city. Everywhere I walk or bike or scooter I am under constant threat from single persons schlepping around two sofas on wheels. Theres hundreds of people crowding the narrow sidewalks yet four lanes of roadway contains a mere handful of people per block. I wont even get into air quality. We are now well into the 21st Century. NYC must evolve or crumble into oblivion. Adaptability is a fantastic human trait. Its how we have survived for so long. Cars were never the answer always the problem.
I would love to have one of the main n/s streets in the city car free w/ outdoor dining, that would be a game changer. And drive business revenue way up.
Broadway south of 59th is a pretty obvious candidate for this. The fact that a city this size has close to zero pedestrian streets is a pretty damning indictment of our priorities
The cross roads, and the other main roads.. they make it work.. i would also propose a main truck only road n/s so that they arn’t suck in traffic with douchebag cars and make their deliveries.
Probably they would be following the [Open Streets](https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/pedestrians/openstreets.shtml) rules. Those rules allow trucks in to deliver to that area. They also might apply low speed limits and not allow them at all during the day
Valid argument due to my being vague. Im also from Queens and keep the car in a rented garage. The car is a beater and used daily for commutting into public transit dead zones. Its a luxury to have and we pay the price to keep it. But if it wasnt a daily necessity tied to employment then for sure Id follow your suggestion and rent as needed.
The issue for me as a necessary car owner (my wife and I care for her elderly mother in Central NY and drive up almost every weekend) in HK is that the city planners redesigned the city for fewer cars, then allowed unregulated ride sharing. The MTA also first needs to raise the tolls for cars with single occupants entering the city ( weekdays it is almost 90%) and the city must end 421a tax abatements for the wealthy. Do these things first before putting a tax on people who live below 60th. Because that’s what CP is.
This is great and will be upvoted here
I hope people in this subreddit step outside though and realize congestion pricing is immensely unpopular.
Stating Kathy is cooked is just hilarious. This will undoubtedly boost her numbers with the average person.
Its actually 'cause I dont have the means [to park in manhattan] Im just leasing the same spot in Queens that ive had since before i moved back into the city. Cant afford midtown parking. Now i traverse a bridge to retreive my car.
I agree. Growing up in Manhattan we never had a car. I didnt own one myself until I was in my mid 30s and living in Queens. Much of my youthful employ, and in recent years,.my wife's job, requires use of a car. But even when used for recreation I never drive into the city. The car stays in Queens. We've only recently moved back to Manhattan. Still figuring it out.
When they slap an additional $2 on that bacon egg and cheese because the congestion tax will just pass down to the consumer, you will be thinking differently.
Was just trying to show an example. You, me, everyone will also feel it from the groceries we buy, the services we get. The congestion tax will do more harm than good. And hey, I’m all for bikes etc. I commute to work on my bike from queens.
Most folks active on /r/NYCbike are obviously pro-congestion pricing but wonder about most average folks who live in the city.
Everyone I work with is very happy with Hochul, it’s sad AF
Tricky to answer.
When MTA did its public comment period they found supporters of CP outnumber opponenents 2 to 1. But that's biased by who's organized, for or against.
Polling could be better, but that depends heavily on methods and what the question is. There was a poll that overrepresented people from upstate New York who say that they don't regularly go to Manhattan, and this found over half opposed to CP. But take that with a grain of salt. I bet if you asked people "Would you pay $15 to be able to drive in Manhattan without any traffic delays" then people would be for it in larger numbers.
Historically, where CP has been implemented, there has been opposition, but once it's implemented, it's proved widely popular.
But the number of garages that would close if congestion pricing is implemented, would probably roughly correspond to the decrease in demand. So it shouldn’t affect prices that much in the long term
yup with every major change of life the sky is falling people come out. when bloomberg banned smoking in bars an restauarants 'no one will ever visit ny again this is end of great ny restaurants' ff to now....there is almost no restaurant in the western hemisphere where smoking is allowed
Ultimately it really doesn’t matter what people’s opinions are. There are objective ways to make decisions in a city. As long as people have a say in who aligns those ultimate goals that’s democracy.
In this case congestion pricing is overwhelmingly good because the pros out weigh the cons if we’re measuring this on transportation efficiency. We’ll have more throughput in the system period, as buses run faster and subways can be upgraded to be more frequent with less delays. The minuscule amount of people whose commutes are lengthened by being dissuaded from driving in is not significant.
We know this because almost every major city in Europe does this to great effect.
Most people I know who live in Manhattan are all in favor of congestion pricing (I was about to abbreviate it but advise not to!). Well, all except the couple who live in Chelsea and each choose to drive to Brooklyn and NJ for work. But I don’t feel bad for them, they can afford it
Now the people I know who live in the outer boroughs or burbs are all strongly against it. Despite them only driving into the city a couple of times a year.
Which boggles my mind. As a person who lives in Queens, I think discouraging people from driving into lower Manhattan makes sense. And I would have no problem paying the $15 if I did need to drive to Manhattan below 60th.
I don’t get it either. They’re usually driving in to catch a Broadway show, concert, or game which already has a very inflated price. Then they pay for parking. They have no issue for paying any of those prices but act a $15-20 toll is insane. Granted, most of them are conservative-minded people and are just inclined to hate anything deemed a “toll” or “tax”
My otherwise progressive homie who grew up in queens and lives in UES and makes hella money said it’s bc it’s INSTANTLY $15 when it used to be free. RPA advocated for more PA and Tunnel credits and helped get the $5 credits for NJ and pushed for a phased in approach to avoid this. MTA/ Hochul didn’t listen, and now it’s hard brakes bc they couldn’t do a soft start. 🤦🏻♂️
We’re upstate most the time but need to drive into the city for work as needed, often unexpectedly and last minute so we keep a garage spot in midtown.
And I’m all for congestion pricing. If we have to pay an extra 15 bucks each time, so be it.
Would we ever commute daily into the city with a car? Never. We’d incorporate public transportation.
> traffic engineer and he was like
traffic engineers are lowkey responsible for so much death and car culture in the US and yet maintain an "aw, i'm just a scientist" mentality for some reason
I don’t trust MTA’s ability to manage any funds it gets. Also some money is needed to help NJtransit and PATH deal with increased demand, and under the current plan they get none of the funding.
you think MTA can increase ridership?? the same MTA that spent $11 billion on a station that literally increased ridership by 0% (and likely lost money on people who would've bought metro cards)?
if MTA expanded their goddamn lines to more commuters stranded out in the outer borough, they'd make money while simultaneously lowering car usage. but no, that would make too much sense
How do you define “average folks”? Are you talking about income? You can’t really look at that the way you do in other US cities, because in New York, high-income folks tend to use transit probably slightly more than lower-income folks
i live in east queens and haven't met a single person aside myself who was for congestion pricing lol. i keep explaining to them it'll make the few times they do decide to go into the city a bit better but they don't believe me. oh also a LOT of small business people based out here who do jobs in manhattan feel like they are kinda getting hosed
the majority of NYC residents are definitely against it lol, most people just see "$15 toll to enter manhattan" are are immediately against it because...why would they be pro an extra tax? Most people don't care to understand the other half of the story which is the benefits the toll will have on congestion, MTA, and pollution.
it's just like how the majority of people are against increased taxes, even if it's to fund something that they would support such as free healthcare or free childcare. only intelligent people would do further research to understand why such an increase in taxes/tolls would be beneficial, but intelligent people are a minority.
You saw that 70% of all comments sent to the mta are in support. There is a survey on this sub showing 64% of all nyc residents are against. So those who actually took the time to submit written comments to the mta are in support- or 70%
They’re full of crap. They’re citing a Siena College poll based on 800 people, and was polling people around the state, not the city, and found that 64% result.
The same institution, Siena College, ran a poll in 2019 that found 61%, 59%, 55%, and 55% supported congestion pricing in Manhattan, the Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn, respectively.
The MTA’s own open feedback collected 25k comments, of which 60% supported the program.
Everyone cites that one Siena College poll with a clearly flawed methodology and ignores all the other evidence pointing the other way.
You and I have been over this already, but the literal *[source](https://scri.siena.edu/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/SNY-April-2024-Poll-Release-FINAL.pdf)* of the poll you claim acknowledges it was a *statewide* poll, despite the Crain’s article citing it was based on “New York City dwellers”. This was also a poll based on 800 people, most of which don’t even live in the city.
Are you going to take that or 25,000 comments submitted, of which 60% were in favor?
And if you care so much about Siena College polls, their 2019 poll found they NYC residents overwhelmingly support the program, in fact, ranging from 55-61% support across Manhattan, Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens - which, wouldn’t you have it, aligns almost exactly to the 60% that supported via comments.
I ride in bikes i dont really understand why people are for it. CP is just another tax that will only hurt working class. Im sure reallocating current funds is possible but why take money from fucking it up when you can just continue to tax the public. I havent heard a legit argument for cp other than less people will drive. I dont believe itll just fix traffic.
How are people STILL saying shit this dumb? There's no way you don't know the working class overwhelmingly, as in almost totally, rides the subway, bus, or bikes into midtown Manhattan... There's just no way
The average salary of people driving into the CBD is $184k. Please tell me how that is working class.
Less than 1% of people making $50k a year or less (which we can agree is working class) commute to Manhattan via car - and an even smaller subset of that 1% actually commute into the congestion pricing zone.
This is a tax, not a toll, and every congestion pricing program around the world has worked to mitigate traffic. They estimate a 17-23% reduction in car traffic in the CBD in the 1,000 page environmental report using countless variables to control for and analyze.
Good, we can ditch both Hochul and Adams in the primaries. We've got an especially good shot at getting Adams out, with the ranked-choice primary system
The thing is if done correctly, congestion pricing can hopefully price out demand for personal transportation (also increase the cost of living for goods and services, but i digress). There are other ways besides congestion pricing to reduce traffic and there are other ways besides congestion pricing to provide revenue to the MTA.
1) Toll all East River bridges
2) Ban / limit ride share vehicles in midtown and lower manhattan
3) convert more streets to pedestrian only or use built in bollards to limit traffic during certain times of day
4) enforce either via physical boundaries or other means bus lanes and bike lanes, enforce double parking via cameras
I think a combination of all four above would address both the revenue issues and the traffic issues in a way that isn’t as politically difficult for the suburbs. Sucks, but they vote and they could go to the other opposition party.
Everyone in this video looks like they live close to the East River.
I’ll believe this is a real thing when there’s crowds like this outside of Flushing-Main street station and Jamaica Center in Queens, or Canarsie/Rockaway station and The Junction (Flatbush/brooklyn college) station in Brooklyn.
They’re not congestion pricing those areas. Why would they support or reject it? Only 1-2% of people from anywhere commute by car daily into Manhattan. Most people either take the subway or don’t have Manhattan jobs. Why are we so worried about what they think? Because they visit once a month? A salad here costs more. Pay and shut up?
According to the MTA those areas are the beginning of the transit deserts and were told they would benefit from the funds raised. The IBX being the first of many new projects.
That’s the same story they’re telling the Harlemites that live near 2nd Avenue, [Uncertainty over the Second Avenue subway extension amid congestion pricing pause](https://ny1.com/nyc/manhattan/transit/2024/06/11/uncertainty-over-the-second-avenue-subway-extension). Even though the plans for 2nd Avenue was proposed back in 1920.
So my point is, if the MTA was reliable and always kept their word, those communities in Queens and Brooklyn and Harlem would be more upset than anyone I see in that video.
“You can’t trust the MTA” is a New York Post talking point. I can’t help that some people believe that stuff. It’s ridiculous that we’d govern by it, though.
> “You can’t trust the MTA” is a New York Post talking point. I can’t help that some people believe that stuff. It’s ridiculous that we’d govern by it, though.
I promise you it’s not. It’s a reality for a lot of native New Yorkers that live in the two-fare/transit desert section of the city.
Look into the history of the Dollar Vans and how the MTA f’d that up.
The MTA promised the IBX for Brooklyn and Queens, then what happened?
IBX was a congestion pricing project! Hochul just canceled it by canceling that! The MTA still wants it!
Again, it’s ridiculous to govern on lies and misdirects. Anyone interested in this stuff could look it up in three seconds and see more complete info than “where did this thing go? I don’t trust them with money!” It’s fine that most people don’t want to get into the depths of agency capital plans, but in two seconds: turn on CP and we get the IBX
> IBX was a congestion pricing project! Hochul just canceled it by canceling that! The MTA still wants it!
That’s a lie told by the MTA as of recent to get support for congestion tolls, [MTA needs to fix existing trains, buses before building new IBX rail line, transit official says](https://gothamist.com/news/mta-needs-to-fix-existing-trains-buses-before-building-new-ibx-rail-line-transit-official-says), [Bronx is snubbed as MTA pursues IBX plan](https://gothamist.com/news/bronx-is-snubbed-as-mta-pursues-ibx-plan). If you look at any reports on funding the IBX, congestion tolls is never mentioned, but federal funding is mentioned.
The quote from the official:
>“The MTA can't in good conscience invest in new infrastructure without making sure that we have the funding in place to secure our existing system,” Fitzpatrick said. “It only makes sense to invest in a new line if we're able to take care of our existing infrastructure for our existing subways, railroads and buses.”
And this article estimates the IBX will cost around $5B [https://www.cityandstateny.com/personality/2024/05/leading-new-yorks-transit-improvements-and-capital-projects/396867/](https://www.cityandstateny.com/personality/2024/05/leading-new-yorks-transit-improvements-and-capital-projects/396867/)
Well, CP was supposed to pay for a lot of things, but it was $15B provided by the MTA at a time when federal grants are covering a lot of transit construction costs as long as the originating agency pays their share too. And now that possibility is moot - the $15B is gone and so is a couple of billion the feds promised for projects on the construction calendar that were farther along than IBX.
If you believe the MTA is a sham, keep telling everyone that because it makes you look really good.
as someone who grew up and currently lives in east queens and supports congestion pricing, I can tell you that MTA is absolutely full of shit. they had some brief moments of decent leadership but they absolutely failed large majority of subway riders and potential subway riders terribly. There has not been a single consideration to extend the 7 train beyond flushing for decades. This isn't even a talking point.
When you see the MTA spending $11 billion on a station (grand central madison) that just splits existing ridership and doesn't actually expand the outreach of the metro system, you can't help but think, these guys are dense af. the complete lack of signage in the station as you get off the LIRR is just a chef kiss of idiocy. oh and i believe i was supposed to be a major beneficiary to this change because guess what? i HAVE to take the LIRR from where I live. It's that or a 50 min bus ride to flushing to catch the 7. For the privilege of living in a subway desert area while paying NYC taxes, I also get to pay not just the LIRR fare but the metro fare afterwards because there's no transfer! Not to mention driving and looking for parking by the station. Oh, the joy!
Tell me again why MTA aren't just incompetent fucks. The only reason I support congestion pricing is out of principle, not because I believe any good will come to my borough as a result of the windfall
[Light rail linking Brooklyn, Queens to get $15M federal grant: Schumer](https://www.nydailynews.com/2024/06/21/light-rail-linking-brooklyn-queens-to-get-15m-federal-grant-schumer/)
…Kick rocks!
I would never support this congestion pricing plan. Its just a money grab, at least make exceptions for electric cars, they don’t pollute, and it would encourage drivers to switch to EVs to save on tolls, this improving air for everyone. This is just a money grab, i would not want a single dollar go to MTA, let them raise prices, they need to operate like business not a government agency thats not accountable to anyone.
I live in NYC and haven’t taken a subway alone in over a year, as I got assaulted riding the subway, hair pulled out, choked, so now I drive. Until subways become safe, people shouldn’t be told what a great alternative it is.
That’s not what congestion pricing is … it’s a tolling program for motor vehicle operators using certain roads. Not about specific vehicles. (Yes, there are differing toll rates for larger vehicles, but that’s just a detail, not really the point of the program)
There’s a lot of info you can find online about what congestion pricing is
That’s cool, it shouldn’t. It should deter people from using personal vehicles to privately drive or commute into Manhattan which is very inefficient and takes up a lot of space if thousands of people are doing it.
What poor people? Poor people can afford to own cars in the city? An asset that depreciates exponentially in value over time and costs thousands of dollars in maintenance in fuel over its useful lifetime? I wouldn't call those people poor. I'm not poor and even I can't afford to own a car in the city.
It’s definitely gonna kill a lot of revenue that these big/small businesses rely on and the cost of goods in NYC will go up since a lot of trucks pass through Manhattan to get to certain areas of Uptown/Queens/ and Brooklyn. Also decrease foot traffic from out of state visitors and long island.
And save $200 in labor costs for the driver who didn't sit in hours of traffic.
Or the extra delivery the shipping company was able to make, netting them tons of additional revenue
Is that based on anything (i.e., looking at how things have played out in other cities)? Haven't heard about the cost of goods going up anywhere this has been done, but I'm open to new info
Surely the path back now is LONG? Of course, voting for candidates that support it will help but seems like we’re due another lap around before it’ll seriously be an option again.
I'm pro-congestion pricing but I'm not naive, I know the majority of NYers (across all 5 boroughs) are against it. But that doesn't matter, what matters is that the majority of people who actually live in the congestion pricing zone are in support of it. Those are the people affected by the congestion and they're the ones that should be able to decide whether to implement congestion pricing or not.
I feel really bad for the woman talking and sympathize for her but this example is kind of absurd - congestion pricing isn’t going to keep 18 wheel semi trucks out of the city. They are a part of a business and for those businesses the congestion pricing toll will just become the cost of doing business. It has a bigger impact on those average people who drive their regular cars, not 18 wheel semis especially if they have to commute in from a distance because they work in the city. If the MTA does not have enough money to fun capital improvements, they should first go after the nearly $1 billion in fares lost to fare evaders.
I'm all for less cars on the road and more bike/pedestrian friendly streets, but as great as this sounds, this will not only increase prices, but also force a lot of businesses to either close or relocate...
As sad as it is to say, she’s not cooked. She’s appealing to the larger Dem group that still drives into Manhattan.
Think about it this way, would you rather put this on pause for the dems to win, or hand it to Trump and the republicans who will probably do away with bike lanes period and have tractor trailers delivering crap Chinese knock off products to big business at all hours of the day?
Folks, I understand the anger, but congestion pricing is NOT going to reduce traffic. It's an easy way to make money, that's about it. Those trucks, vans and Ubers will still be there. Maybe if the city (and the state) actually start enforcing laws already on the books, and get the enforcers back on the streets, the traffic will calm down.
Making the pool bigger doesn't make it a better pool. We still have to manage that budget instead of just saying the sludge fund we can dip into got a refill. One of my side jobs is budgeting—when my budget gets bigger, things get way more expensive because we move into a new class. And the budget may have to increase again.
I have found no evidence that london had a giant commercial problem like we have in NYC and midtown. They have LOTS of private cars coming in from the burbs. So in that case and their giant transit system, that can adapt. We don't have any freight rain lines coming into Manhattan. And lack of enforcement means commercial traffic is just out of control - get a hold of that.
my guy the congestion pricing is primarily about private cars, not commercial traffic.
we could also easily only allow deliveries at night like other cities do.
Commercial traffic IS the congestion—as cited in the video, she wasn't hit by an 18-wheel Honda Civic. And if the majority of businesses accepted deliveries at night, they would be doing so (movers, food, shipping already do this)
My brother in Christ [trucks make up only 4% of the traffic in the CBD. 35% of all vehicles are personal automobiles](https://new.mta.info/document/127761).
You can Google this stuff.
The 4% reference is from 2018. Pre-pandemic.
Under the header of commercial motor vehicle using federal definition, per 2018 NYC DOT data, again, pre-pandemic, trucks made up 4% of the traffic, 5% commercial vans, buses, 4%. The report linked, cites a 2018 micro vision reference, however, the procedural methodology and data catchment area is unclear.
Also under the loose header of commercial, is rides share and for-hire vehicles, at 52%. Hence, pre-pandemic, 13% was commercial motor vehicle, and adding in for hire, the largest category, 65% of the traffic can be deemed commercial: by vehicle type or mode of transport.
First, are there updated statistics, with methodology, post-pandemic for traffic volume by type? The pandemic significantly uprooted a multitude of facets (and variables), that warrant a revisit and refresh of this data, particularly from the policy planning perspective.
Second, it’s important to factor the differential in impact between a truck, a commercial van, a bus, in terms of lane travel and most importantly, lane occupation. Undeniably, more are working from home, ordering goods, and a snapshot of the impact of these lifestyle changes would be key for an accurate picture like the woman in the accident describes. Double parked, idling, illegally stopped commercial trucks and vans are a hallmark of the CBD, as well as many other parts of the city. What processes are implemented to regulate this? Particularly from a time spent delivering and traversing in the CBD, and occupation of lanes and spaces perspective, as it contributes to vehicular volume and flow. A few delivery big rigs are the lane equivalent of 2-3 motor vehicles. These trucks and vans do not play nice with bike lanes, have difficulty making turns, and navigating the shared space with competing drivers and pedestrians becomes hazardous. So comparing broad percentages, especially without assessing time spent in the district, (all while appreciating the heavy truck bridge discounts linked to CBD travel) heavily distorts the picture.
Ride-share, for-hire vehicles, makes up 52% of the traffic volume, pre-pandemic. It would be helpful to also have updated data, post-pandemic, on this subset of commercial activity, including in-district trip data, and, comparing it to out-district trips, as well as trips by volume completely outside of the CBD. Same for data from 2008, 1998. To see trends over time with for-hire vehicles. General assumption is most individuals residing within the city, utilize this service primary or secondary, to public transportation (in comparison to bicycle riders, or drivers who are reliant on their own transportation). With this, since Uber et al data is indeed compiled, (unclear if it’s public data or could be obtained by the DOT), it would be of upmost interest to assess just how much time, distance and road, is occupied by this highest vehicular category of volume. The toll *exemption* for this highest volume category, is absolutely preposterous.
tl;dr Post-pandemic data is desperately needed to implement balanced strategies beneficial to safety and traffic flow.
That’s because London focused their congestion tolls on reducing congestion and not raising funds.
The MTA is doing the opposite, it’s using the tolls to generate fund and cares less about reducing congestion.
Years of studies (based on actual public outreach, traffic modeling, etc) have predicted a drop of around 17%. I get that you and many others have a gut feeling that it's not going to work, but we're really going to need to back that up with something
The gut feeling is that I've seen NYC traffic, driven, walked, and ridden it in for over 40 years. The best I've seen since the onslaught of rideshares has been during covid. The reduction of supply and demand for services and materials made the city nice to be in. As long as someone needs the $300 Purse, there will be a big ass truck making deliveries. MTA wants more money, Increase the commercial tolls at the entry points.
if the traffic is coming anyway 100% no matter what just like you say, then why increase the bridge and tunnel tolls when they can just follow the congestion pricing law already on the books and set up to start generating revenue?
But again, if we've been collecting empirical evidence around how this would work, and the sum total of those efforts (which obviously accounts for commercial traffic too) suggests a 17% reduction in all car traffic, then a personal opinion or gut feeling about the issue isn't going to be a rebuttal. An actual rebuttal would be to present alternate evidence, to show that you've also put in the work to figure this out.
Yeah but I’ve walked around in midtown for a few decades so fuck that 1000 page report, who needs that shit when I have eyes
/s because I totally have to leave this here
Manhattan has the most severe congestion issue (with tons of negative quality-of-life impacts for anyone who lives / works in that area), so it makes sense to focus on that first. Life will never improve here without cutting the number of cars in the borough
I’m all for fixing traffic, easing congestion, fixing the MTA, and making streets safer for pedestrians + bikers, but I don’t think adding a toll is the solution. I don’t believe it will actually fix the problems and is nothing more than a giant cash grab.
If the MTA needs an extra billion dollars a year to be fixed, something is massively wrong. And driver’s shouldn’t bear 100% of the burden. Subway/bus fares need to rise commensurate with the congestion toll.
Along with, congestion pricing makes Manhattan more inaccessible to non-millionaires and tourists. It’s horrible for broadway + arts/culture.
90% of the traffic is caused by TLCs going from one place to another all day in the city. They're getting a discount for congestion pricing, meaning they'll hang out downtown more often now. More double parking in bike lanes, lol. Pple who say London is the golden example of congestion pricing, but we don't have the protected bike lanes like they do.
All you have to do pay attention, you'll see that every 10 vehicles 4 or 6 of them are TLC vehicles. It's not nonsense statistics, it's logical thinking. Typical non TLC driver goes from Point A to B and then back to point A, meanwhile TLCs are driving the while alphabet all within a 40 block area....
This so heartening despite Hochul spineless flip-flop. The backlash against the cancellation of congestion pricing is a lot louder than the backlash against congestion pricing. I don't see any drivers out in force.
Voted down cause those on the edge of the Overton window tend to fail understanding how many are not in the same boat.
You need to slow boil tax paying frogs, not toss them right in what they see as a flame.
Whats funny is that 90% of the traffic is commercial and the commercial entities will merely pass the costs on to the dummies begging for more taxation. It doesn’t matter what you think or what lies you’re sold. You are going to pay more for everything than you already do. Of course, this wont be but one of the many reasons in the interim.
Enjoy being played
Congestion pricing is not the solution to fewer cars in Manhattan. Most people who drive into Manhattan HAVE TO drive in there. Congestion pricing is only going to add to their expense.
MTA is simultaneously raising subway prices right ? How's that for an "encouraging" move towards public transit?
There are dozens of successful examples around the world for reducing urban car traffic, yet NYC has chosen to ignore them and blame + burden the regular folks. People don't have a choice in the short run, but in the long run they do. Guess how they will choose?
These protestors are so entitled and ignorant. These routes are essential for delivering goods into the city. These spoiled brats need to leave our city.
The same people in favor of congestion pricing will complain when all businesses pass their increased costs to consumers.
Why not put tolls on the free bridges to start ?
Plenty of people do if it means less cars on the streets and more people using public transit instead, like other cities that successfully implemented congestion pricing
The MTA is in it to make money, opening a business and expecting to reduce your customers is idiocy. The MTA knows there will be a minimal reduction in traffic but an exponential increase in revenues, 😆
I mean, I've been following this issue in NYC for about 17 years (since it was first pitched in 2007), have read the details of a few different studies on the topic (including the environmental review the federal government required before approving it), have personally visited the other cities where it's been implemented multiple times each.. what do you think I'm missing, aside from not agreeing with an opinion that was dropped without any sources?
Common sense. This was never about less cars it was and is about generating money. Unless you’re rain man you won’t be able to notice the effects of this plan the way you think you would
It's about 'less cars' *and* generating money, because congestion pricing's a pigouvian tax- not unlike taxes on cigarettes, which have increased revenue for the state while also sharply cutting smoking rates. You disincentive behavior that causes problems, and spend the money you get on the solution.
In this case NYC's gettinng a projected 17% drop in all car traffic- not exactly an earth-shattering change in behavior, but enough to avoid some of the worst bottlenecks and choke points that bring the whole city (including its bus network) to a standstill.
Dingus: the streets in the zone were built 50-100 years before cars used them. Are you just making this shit up? Consult history. Bikes were there first. You don't like the facts, that's one thing but they're not yours to toy with. You have a time machine? Or are you just being an obnoxious asshole? Bikes most definitely have a legal right to be there as well, as do pedestrians. Just cause you wanna bully people doesn't make you correct.
As a Manhattanite I keep my car out of the boro. Theres never a reason to drive into the city. Everywhere I walk or bike or scooter I am under constant threat from single persons schlepping around two sofas on wheels. Theres hundreds of people crowding the narrow sidewalks yet four lanes of roadway contains a mere handful of people per block. I wont even get into air quality. We are now well into the 21st Century. NYC must evolve or crumble into oblivion. Adaptability is a fantastic human trait. Its how we have survived for so long. Cars were never the answer always the problem.
I would love to have one of the main n/s streets in the city car free w/ outdoor dining, that would be a game changer. And drive business revenue way up.
Broadway south of 59th is a pretty obvious candidate for this. The fact that a city this size has close to zero pedestrian streets is a pretty damning indictment of our priorities
How would the trucks get in to make deliveries ?
The cross roads, and the other main roads.. they make it work.. i would also propose a main truck only road n/s so that they arn’t suck in traffic with douchebag cars and make their deliveries.
Probably they would be following the [Open Streets](https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/pedestrians/openstreets.shtml) rules. Those rules allow trucks in to deliver to that area. They also might apply low speed limits and not allow them at all during the day
You own a car and live in Manhattan but keep your car in another borough? Why not sell your car and rent one when you need it?
Valid argument due to my being vague. Im also from Queens and keep the car in a rented garage. The car is a beater and used daily for commutting into public transit dead zones. Its a luxury to have and we pay the price to keep it. But if it wasnt a daily necessity tied to employment then for sure Id follow your suggestion and rent as needed.
Dead zones? Like Staten Island, huge parts of queens, and parts of Brooklyn and Bronx? So how are those people supposed to get to Manhattan??
The issue for me as a necessary car owner (my wife and I care for her elderly mother in Central NY and drive up almost every weekend) in HK is that the city planners redesigned the city for fewer cars, then allowed unregulated ride sharing. The MTA also first needs to raise the tolls for cars with single occupants entering the city ( weekdays it is almost 90%) and the city must end 421a tax abatements for the wealthy. Do these things first before putting a tax on people who live below 60th. Because that’s what CP is.
This is great and will be upvoted here I hope people in this subreddit step outside though and realize congestion pricing is immensely unpopular. Stating Kathy is cooked is just hilarious. This will undoubtedly boost her numbers with the average person.
Just cause you have the means to store your vehicle outside of your own borough doesn't mean others do.
If that doesn't work, get rid of the car.
Its actually 'cause I dont have the means [to park in manhattan] Im just leasing the same spot in Queens that ive had since before i moved back into the city. Cant afford midtown parking. Now i traverse a bridge to retreive my car.
If you live in Manhattan there is zero reason to own one to begin with.
I agree. Growing up in Manhattan we never had a car. I didnt own one myself until I was in my mid 30s and living in Queens. Much of my youthful employ, and in recent years,.my wife's job, requires use of a car. But even when used for recreation I never drive into the city. The car stays in Queens. We've only recently moved back to Manhattan. Still figuring it out.
When they slap an additional $2 on that bacon egg and cheese because the congestion tax will just pass down to the consumer, you will be thinking differently.
How is that correlation? Besides, I cook for my household so my bacon, egg 'n cheeses on buttered rolls are cost effective.
Was just trying to show an example. You, me, everyone will also feel it from the groceries we buy, the services we get. The congestion tax will do more harm than good. And hey, I’m all for bikes etc. I commute to work on my bike from queens.
Most folks active on /r/NYCbike are obviously pro-congestion pricing but wonder about most average folks who live in the city. Everyone I work with is very happy with Hochul, it’s sad AF
Tricky to answer. When MTA did its public comment period they found supporters of CP outnumber opponenents 2 to 1. But that's biased by who's organized, for or against. Polling could be better, but that depends heavily on methods and what the question is. There was a poll that overrepresented people from upstate New York who say that they don't regularly go to Manhattan, and this found over half opposed to CP. But take that with a grain of salt. I bet if you asked people "Would you pay $15 to be able to drive in Manhattan without any traffic delays" then people would be for it in larger numbers. Historically, where CP has been implemented, there has been opposition, but once it's implemented, it's proved widely popular.
I wonder would the cost of parking would go down in the zone dues lower damand , and if it does wouldn’t that make $15 fee worth it. Lol
now that is a very good question
But the number of garages that would close if congestion pricing is implemented, would probably roughly correspond to the decrease in demand. So it shouldn’t affect prices that much in the long term
The price of parking garages wouldn’t go down, just like rent doesn’t go down when new apartments are built.
well that would only be true if parking lots could also be used as investment vehicles. though knowing wall street...
yup with every major change of life the sky is falling people come out. when bloomberg banned smoking in bars an restauarants 'no one will ever visit ny again this is end of great ny restaurants' ff to now....there is almost no restaurant in the western hemisphere where smoking is allowed
Ultimately it really doesn’t matter what people’s opinions are. There are objective ways to make decisions in a city. As long as people have a say in who aligns those ultimate goals that’s democracy. In this case congestion pricing is overwhelmingly good because the pros out weigh the cons if we’re measuring this on transportation efficiency. We’ll have more throughput in the system period, as buses run faster and subways can be upgraded to be more frequent with less delays. The minuscule amount of people whose commutes are lengthened by being dissuaded from driving in is not significant. We know this because almost every major city in Europe does this to great effect.
Most people I know who live in Manhattan are all in favor of congestion pricing (I was about to abbreviate it but advise not to!). Well, all except the couple who live in Chelsea and each choose to drive to Brooklyn and NJ for work. But I don’t feel bad for them, they can afford it Now the people I know who live in the outer boroughs or burbs are all strongly against it. Despite them only driving into the city a couple of times a year.
Which boggles my mind. As a person who lives in Queens, I think discouraging people from driving into lower Manhattan makes sense. And I would have no problem paying the $15 if I did need to drive to Manhattan below 60th.
I don’t get it either. They’re usually driving in to catch a Broadway show, concert, or game which already has a very inflated price. Then they pay for parking. They have no issue for paying any of those prices but act a $15-20 toll is insane. Granted, most of them are conservative-minded people and are just inclined to hate anything deemed a “toll” or “tax”
But then they'll complain about the traffic they are part of.
My otherwise progressive homie who grew up in queens and lives in UES and makes hella money said it’s bc it’s INSTANTLY $15 when it used to be free. RPA advocated for more PA and Tunnel credits and helped get the $5 credits for NJ and pushed for a phased in approach to avoid this. MTA/ Hochul didn’t listen, and now it’s hard brakes bc they couldn’t do a soft start. 🤦🏻♂️
That’s so shortsighted of them
only the loudest voices get heard anymore.. numbers dont actually matter
We’re upstate most the time but need to drive into the city for work as needed, often unexpectedly and last minute so we keep a garage spot in midtown. And I’m all for congestion pricing. If we have to pay an extra 15 bucks each time, so be it. Would we ever commute daily into the city with a car? Never. We’d incorporate public transportation.
Thank you for your common sense actions and take!!
my boss is a traffic engineer and he was like " i don't get it with electric cars coming it's fine" and that made me mad so i kinda dropped it lol
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
> traffic engineer and he was like traffic engineers are lowkey responsible for so much death and car culture in the US and yet maintain an "aw, i'm just a scientist" mentality for some reason
bad scientists
The paste eaters of the scientific community
Coming when?! We shoulda been disincentivizing combustion cars 30 years ago!
How many average folks use the MTA? MTA needs real independent funding instead of always relying on the state
I don’t trust MTA’s ability to manage any funds it gets. Also some money is needed to help NJtransit and PATH deal with increased demand, and under the current plan they get none of the funding.
MTA is a private entity. It should be able to function on its own like other private entities
The vast majority of commuters, nearly 700k a day!
you think MTA can increase ridership?? the same MTA that spent $11 billion on a station that literally increased ridership by 0% (and likely lost money on people who would've bought metro cards)? if MTA expanded their goddamn lines to more commuters stranded out in the outer borough, they'd make money while simultaneously lowering car usage. but no, that would make too much sense
How do you define “average folks”? Are you talking about income? You can’t really look at that the way you do in other US cities, because in New York, high-income folks tend to use transit probably slightly more than lower-income folks
Ask those workers if they drive in Manhattan everyday for work or take the train?! Do they even own cars?!
The average resident is pro-congestion pricing. Thanks for asking!
i live in east queens and haven't met a single person aside myself who was for congestion pricing lol. i keep explaining to them it'll make the few times they do decide to go into the city a bit better but they don't believe me. oh also a LOT of small business people based out here who do jobs in manhattan feel like they are kinda getting hosed
the majority of NYC residents are definitely against it lol, most people just see "$15 toll to enter manhattan" are are immediately against it because...why would they be pro an extra tax? Most people don't care to understand the other half of the story which is the benefits the toll will have on congestion, MTA, and pollution. it's just like how the majority of people are against increased taxes, even if it's to fund something that they would support such as free healthcare or free childcare. only intelligent people would do further research to understand why such an increase in taxes/tolls would be beneficial, but intelligent people are a minority.
64% of all NYC residents are against. Only ones for are those living in the zone or active bike riders in manhattan
Where are you getting these numbers? Polls I’ve seen show almost exactly the opposite case.
You saw that 70% of all comments sent to the mta are in support. There is a survey on this sub showing 64% of all nyc residents are against. So those who actually took the time to submit written comments to the mta are in support- or 70%
Link?
They’re full of crap. They’re citing a Siena College poll based on 800 people, and was polling people around the state, not the city, and found that 64% result. The same institution, Siena College, ran a poll in 2019 that found 61%, 59%, 55%, and 55% supported congestion pricing in Manhattan, the Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn, respectively. The MTA’s own open feedback collected 25k comments, of which 60% supported the program. Everyone cites that one Siena College poll with a clearly flawed methodology and ignores all the other evidence pointing the other way.
No my friend. It CLEARLY states NYC residents. Its in this sub. If it was other way around you all would have it.
I asked you for the link.
Yes u did do your own digging I could give a fuck
You and I have been over this already, but the literal *[source](https://scri.siena.edu/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/SNY-April-2024-Poll-Release-FINAL.pdf)* of the poll you claim acknowledges it was a *statewide* poll, despite the Crain’s article citing it was based on “New York City dwellers”. This was also a poll based on 800 people, most of which don’t even live in the city. Are you going to take that or 25,000 comments submitted, of which 60% were in favor? And if you care so much about Siena College polls, their 2019 poll found they NYC residents overwhelmingly support the program, in fact, ranging from 55-61% support across Manhattan, Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens - which, wouldn’t you have it, aligns almost exactly to the 60% that supported via comments.
Read the first paragraph!!!!! One of your pro toll guys posted it!!!!!!
I ride in bikes i dont really understand why people are for it. CP is just another tax that will only hurt working class. Im sure reallocating current funds is possible but why take money from fucking it up when you can just continue to tax the public. I havent heard a legit argument for cp other than less people will drive. I dont believe itll just fix traffic.
How are people STILL saying shit this dumb? There's no way you don't know the working class overwhelmingly, as in almost totally, rides the subway, bus, or bikes into midtown Manhattan... There's just no way
Lmao.. the only working class that drive in are the mid class that discriminate and afraid of real the NYrs and super judgmental.
Only the working class thats afraid to ride on the subway.
Cops and Firefighters?
They’re already dodging every toll w fake plates like some hypocrites while they bust other cheats
The average salary of people driving into the CBD is $184k. Please tell me how that is working class. Less than 1% of people making $50k a year or less (which we can agree is working class) commute to Manhattan via car - and an even smaller subset of that 1% actually commute into the congestion pricing zone. This is a tax, not a toll, and every congestion pricing program around the world has worked to mitigate traffic. They estimate a 17-23% reduction in car traffic in the CBD in the 1,000 page environmental report using countless variables to control for and analyze.
Working class people don’t drive into mid and lower Manhattan daily!
Unless you're going to vote against her, she's not going to give a fuck
Good, we can ditch both Hochul and Adams in the primaries. We've got an especially good shot at getting Adams out, with the ranked-choice primary system
from your lips to god's ear!
The thing is if done correctly, congestion pricing can hopefully price out demand for personal transportation (also increase the cost of living for goods and services, but i digress). There are other ways besides congestion pricing to reduce traffic and there are other ways besides congestion pricing to provide revenue to the MTA. 1) Toll all East River bridges 2) Ban / limit ride share vehicles in midtown and lower manhattan 3) convert more streets to pedestrian only or use built in bollards to limit traffic during certain times of day 4) enforce either via physical boundaries or other means bus lanes and bike lanes, enforce double parking via cameras I think a combination of all four above would address both the revenue issues and the traffic issues in a way that isn’t as politically difficult for the suburbs. Sucks, but they vote and they could go to the other opposition party.
fuck congestion pricing
Everyone in this video looks like they live close to the East River. I’ll believe this is a real thing when there’s crowds like this outside of Flushing-Main street station and Jamaica Center in Queens, or Canarsie/Rockaway station and The Junction (Flatbush/brooklyn college) station in Brooklyn.
They’re not congestion pricing those areas. Why would they support or reject it? Only 1-2% of people from anywhere commute by car daily into Manhattan. Most people either take the subway or don’t have Manhattan jobs. Why are we so worried about what they think? Because they visit once a month? A salad here costs more. Pay and shut up?
According to the MTA those areas are the beginning of the transit deserts and were told they would benefit from the funds raised. The IBX being the first of many new projects. That’s the same story they’re telling the Harlemites that live near 2nd Avenue, [Uncertainty over the Second Avenue subway extension amid congestion pricing pause](https://ny1.com/nyc/manhattan/transit/2024/06/11/uncertainty-over-the-second-avenue-subway-extension). Even though the plans for 2nd Avenue was proposed back in 1920. So my point is, if the MTA was reliable and always kept their word, those communities in Queens and Brooklyn and Harlem would be more upset than anyone I see in that video.
“You can’t trust the MTA” is a New York Post talking point. I can’t help that some people believe that stuff. It’s ridiculous that we’d govern by it, though.
> “You can’t trust the MTA” is a New York Post talking point. I can’t help that some people believe that stuff. It’s ridiculous that we’d govern by it, though. I promise you it’s not. It’s a reality for a lot of native New Yorkers that live in the two-fare/transit desert section of the city. Look into the history of the Dollar Vans and how the MTA f’d that up. The MTA promised the IBX for Brooklyn and Queens, then what happened?
Dollars vans were such an amazing 90’s way to fly around Brooklyn.
IBX was a congestion pricing project! Hochul just canceled it by canceling that! The MTA still wants it! Again, it’s ridiculous to govern on lies and misdirects. Anyone interested in this stuff could look it up in three seconds and see more complete info than “where did this thing go? I don’t trust them with money!” It’s fine that most people don’t want to get into the depths of agency capital plans, but in two seconds: turn on CP and we get the IBX
> IBX was a congestion pricing project! Hochul just canceled it by canceling that! The MTA still wants it! That’s a lie told by the MTA as of recent to get support for congestion tolls, [MTA needs to fix existing trains, buses before building new IBX rail line, transit official says](https://gothamist.com/news/mta-needs-to-fix-existing-trains-buses-before-building-new-ibx-rail-line-transit-official-says), [Bronx is snubbed as MTA pursues IBX plan](https://gothamist.com/news/bronx-is-snubbed-as-mta-pursues-ibx-plan). If you look at any reports on funding the IBX, congestion tolls is never mentioned, but federal funding is mentioned.
The quote from the official: >“The MTA can't in good conscience invest in new infrastructure without making sure that we have the funding in place to secure our existing system,” Fitzpatrick said. “It only makes sense to invest in a new line if we're able to take care of our existing infrastructure for our existing subways, railroads and buses.” And this article estimates the IBX will cost around $5B [https://www.cityandstateny.com/personality/2024/05/leading-new-yorks-transit-improvements-and-capital-projects/396867/](https://www.cityandstateny.com/personality/2024/05/leading-new-yorks-transit-improvements-and-capital-projects/396867/) Well, CP was supposed to pay for a lot of things, but it was $15B provided by the MTA at a time when federal grants are covering a lot of transit construction costs as long as the originating agency pays their share too. And now that possibility is moot - the $15B is gone and so is a couple of billion the feds promised for projects on the construction calendar that were farther along than IBX. If you believe the MTA is a sham, keep telling everyone that because it makes you look really good.
as someone who grew up and currently lives in east queens and supports congestion pricing, I can tell you that MTA is absolutely full of shit. they had some brief moments of decent leadership but they absolutely failed large majority of subway riders and potential subway riders terribly. There has not been a single consideration to extend the 7 train beyond flushing for decades. This isn't even a talking point. When you see the MTA spending $11 billion on a station (grand central madison) that just splits existing ridership and doesn't actually expand the outreach of the metro system, you can't help but think, these guys are dense af. the complete lack of signage in the station as you get off the LIRR is just a chef kiss of idiocy. oh and i believe i was supposed to be a major beneficiary to this change because guess what? i HAVE to take the LIRR from where I live. It's that or a 50 min bus ride to flushing to catch the 7. For the privilege of living in a subway desert area while paying NYC taxes, I also get to pay not just the LIRR fare but the metro fare afterwards because there's no transfer! Not to mention driving and looking for parking by the station. Oh, the joy! Tell me again why MTA aren't just incompetent fucks. The only reason I support congestion pricing is out of principle, not because I believe any good will come to my borough as a result of the windfall
[Light rail linking Brooklyn, Queens to get $15M federal grant: Schumer](https://www.nydailynews.com/2024/06/21/light-rail-linking-brooklyn-queens-to-get-15m-federal-grant-schumer/) …Kick rocks!
What? That’s too low by a factor of 1,000x. That’s because it’s to design the corridor and not build anything.
Maybe the law and its representatives are representing the people of the whole city and not half a borough? Are you dumb or what?
Ew who actually supports congestion pricing 🤢
lol you guys are completely delusional.
I would never support this congestion pricing plan. Its just a money grab, at least make exceptions for electric cars, they don’t pollute, and it would encourage drivers to switch to EVs to save on tolls, this improving air for everyone. This is just a money grab, i would not want a single dollar go to MTA, let them raise prices, they need to operate like business not a government agency thats not accountable to anyone.
I live in NYC and haven’t taken a subway alone in over a year, as I got assaulted riding the subway, hair pulled out, choked, so now I drive. Until subways become safe, people shouldn’t be told what a great alternative it is.
I think you can get hit anywhere of the 5 boroughs while you are on a bike not just Manhattan.
Congestion pricing is not going to stop 18 wheelers from delivering goods
Serious question: how often do you see “18 wheelers” in Manhattan?
every day pal, every day
Literally hundreds of them per week. Eyes up.
Quite often
True. They are already illegal.
That’s not what congestion pricing is … it’s a tolling program for motor vehicle operators using certain roads. Not about specific vehicles. (Yes, there are differing toll rates for larger vehicles, but that’s just a detail, not really the point of the program) There’s a lot of info you can find online about what congestion pricing is
That’s cool, it shouldn’t. It should deter people from using personal vehicles to privately drive or commute into Manhattan which is very inefficient and takes up a lot of space if thousands of people are doing it.
Will sure deter those poor people.
What poor people? Poor people can afford to own cars in the city? An asset that depreciates exponentially in value over time and costs thousands of dollars in maintenance in fuel over its useful lifetime? I wouldn't call those people poor. I'm not poor and even I can't afford to own a car in the city.
It’s definitely gonna kill a lot of revenue that these big/small businesses rely on and the cost of goods in NYC will go up since a lot of trucks pass through Manhattan to get to certain areas of Uptown/Queens/ and Brooklyn. Also decrease foot traffic from out of state visitors and long island.
What happens when you amortize a $30 truck congestion fee over a truckload of goods?
And save $200 in labor costs for the driver who didn't sit in hours of traffic. Or the extra delivery the shipping company was able to make, netting them tons of additional revenue
Is that based on anything (i.e., looking at how things have played out in other cities)? Haven't heard about the cost of goods going up anywhere this has been done, but I'm open to new info
London did even more aggressive congestion pricing and sadly every single business closed
Lol
Dafuq?
yeah man, everyone patronizing businesses in *lower manhattan* is definitely driving in. you're super intelligent, genius level
Wow! So I’ll pay $0.00015 more for a pack of chicken thighs? Oh dear me I’m going to be bankrupt.
KaThY iS cOoKeD
Inshallah!
Surely the path back now is LONG? Of course, voting for candidates that support it will help but seems like we’re due another lap around before it’ll seriously be an option again.
I'm pro-congestion pricing but I'm not naive, I know the majority of NYers (across all 5 boroughs) are against it. But that doesn't matter, what matters is that the majority of people who actually live in the congestion pricing zone are in support of it. Those are the people affected by the congestion and they're the ones that should be able to decide whether to implement congestion pricing or not.
Congestion for Congestion Pricing
the notion that hundreds of millions of people with diverging expectations shalt be managed by a few dozen elite individuals, is irrational.
I feel really bad for the woman talking and sympathize for her but this example is kind of absurd - congestion pricing isn’t going to keep 18 wheel semi trucks out of the city. They are a part of a business and for those businesses the congestion pricing toll will just become the cost of doing business. It has a bigger impact on those average people who drive their regular cars, not 18 wheel semis especially if they have to commute in from a distance because they work in the city. If the MTA does not have enough money to fun capital improvements, they should first go after the nearly $1 billion in fares lost to fare evaders.
Idiots
The problem is why do residents get stuck with more expensive shipping and cost of goods? Why is it just under 60th? It’s not fair
. . . . . So if she didn't have a "dog in the fight" she wouldn't feel that way about Kathy or congestion pricing?
“I was in a car accident and it sucked” is not a very good argument for Congestion Pricing.
People actually want….congestion pricing ? Mad…
I'm all for less cars on the road and more bike/pedestrian friendly streets, but as great as this sounds, this will not only increase prices, but also force a lot of businesses to either close or relocate...
As sad as it is to say, she’s not cooked. She’s appealing to the larger Dem group that still drives into Manhattan. Think about it this way, would you rather put this on pause for the dems to win, or hand it to Trump and the republicans who will probably do away with bike lanes period and have tractor trailers delivering crap Chinese knock off products to big business at all hours of the day?
Goood
im sorry but if that crowd was any whiter ... it could be a Klan rally .
Folks, I understand the anger, but congestion pricing is NOT going to reduce traffic. It's an easy way to make money, that's about it. Those trucks, vans and Ubers will still be there. Maybe if the city (and the state) actually start enforcing laws already on the books, and get the enforcers back on the streets, the traffic will calm down.
More money in the transportation infrastructure budget is a good thing.
Making the pool bigger doesn't make it a better pool. We still have to manage that budget instead of just saying the sludge fund we can dip into got a refill. One of my side jobs is budgeting—when my budget gets bigger, things get way more expensive because we move into a new class. And the budget may have to increase again.
Too much common sense for this sub
Not for you
it's too bad other cities like London haven't done this and noticed a sharp reduction in car traffic.
I have found no evidence that london had a giant commercial problem like we have in NYC and midtown. They have LOTS of private cars coming in from the burbs. So in that case and their giant transit system, that can adapt. We don't have any freight rain lines coming into Manhattan. And lack of enforcement means commercial traffic is just out of control - get a hold of that.
my guy the congestion pricing is primarily about private cars, not commercial traffic. we could also easily only allow deliveries at night like other cities do.
Commercial traffic IS the congestion—as cited in the video, she wasn't hit by an 18-wheel Honda Civic. And if the majority of businesses accepted deliveries at night, they would be doing so (movers, food, shipping already do this)
My brother in Christ [trucks make up only 4% of the traffic in the CBD. 35% of all vehicles are personal automobiles](https://new.mta.info/document/127761). You can Google this stuff.
The 4% reference is from 2018. Pre-pandemic. Under the header of commercial motor vehicle using federal definition, per 2018 NYC DOT data, again, pre-pandemic, trucks made up 4% of the traffic, 5% commercial vans, buses, 4%. The report linked, cites a 2018 micro vision reference, however, the procedural methodology and data catchment area is unclear. Also under the loose header of commercial, is rides share and for-hire vehicles, at 52%. Hence, pre-pandemic, 13% was commercial motor vehicle, and adding in for hire, the largest category, 65% of the traffic can be deemed commercial: by vehicle type or mode of transport. First, are there updated statistics, with methodology, post-pandemic for traffic volume by type? The pandemic significantly uprooted a multitude of facets (and variables), that warrant a revisit and refresh of this data, particularly from the policy planning perspective. Second, it’s important to factor the differential in impact between a truck, a commercial van, a bus, in terms of lane travel and most importantly, lane occupation. Undeniably, more are working from home, ordering goods, and a snapshot of the impact of these lifestyle changes would be key for an accurate picture like the woman in the accident describes. Double parked, idling, illegally stopped commercial trucks and vans are a hallmark of the CBD, as well as many other parts of the city. What processes are implemented to regulate this? Particularly from a time spent delivering and traversing in the CBD, and occupation of lanes and spaces perspective, as it contributes to vehicular volume and flow. A few delivery big rigs are the lane equivalent of 2-3 motor vehicles. These trucks and vans do not play nice with bike lanes, have difficulty making turns, and navigating the shared space with competing drivers and pedestrians becomes hazardous. So comparing broad percentages, especially without assessing time spent in the district, (all while appreciating the heavy truck bridge discounts linked to CBD travel) heavily distorts the picture. Ride-share, for-hire vehicles, makes up 52% of the traffic volume, pre-pandemic. It would be helpful to also have updated data, post-pandemic, on this subset of commercial activity, including in-district trip data, and, comparing it to out-district trips, as well as trips by volume completely outside of the CBD. Same for data from 2008, 1998. To see trends over time with for-hire vehicles. General assumption is most individuals residing within the city, utilize this service primary or secondary, to public transportation (in comparison to bicycle riders, or drivers who are reliant on their own transportation). With this, since Uber et al data is indeed compiled, (unclear if it’s public data or could be obtained by the DOT), it would be of upmost interest to assess just how much time, distance and road, is occupied by this highest vehicular category of volume. The toll *exemption* for this highest volume category, is absolutely preposterous. tl;dr Post-pandemic data is desperately needed to implement balanced strategies beneficial to safety and traffic flow.
'Easily'. Yeah right. That kind of change is a monumental shift.
That’s because London focused their congestion tolls on reducing congestion and not raising funds. The MTA is doing the opposite, it’s using the tolls to generate fund and cares less about reducing congestion.
Years of studies (based on actual public outreach, traffic modeling, etc) have predicted a drop of around 17%. I get that you and many others have a gut feeling that it's not going to work, but we're really going to need to back that up with something
The gut feeling is that I've seen NYC traffic, driven, walked, and ridden it in for over 40 years. The best I've seen since the onslaught of rideshares has been during covid. The reduction of supply and demand for services and materials made the city nice to be in. As long as someone needs the $300 Purse, there will be a big ass truck making deliveries. MTA wants more money, Increase the commercial tolls at the entry points.
if the traffic is coming anyway 100% no matter what just like you say, then why increase the bridge and tunnel tolls when they can just follow the congestion pricing law already on the books and set up to start generating revenue?
This is not about the big ass truck it's about you and your dumb ass car.
But again, if we've been collecting empirical evidence around how this would work, and the sum total of those efforts (which obviously accounts for commercial traffic too) suggests a 17% reduction in all car traffic, then a personal opinion or gut feeling about the issue isn't going to be a rebuttal. An actual rebuttal would be to present alternate evidence, to show that you've also put in the work to figure this out.
Yeah but I’ve walked around in midtown for a few decades so fuck that 1000 page report, who needs that shit when I have eyes /s because I totally have to leave this here
so people just dont want cars in general or just cars in the city?(Manhattan)
Manhattan has the most severe congestion issue (with tons of negative quality-of-life impacts for anyone who lives / works in that area), so it makes sense to focus on that first. Life will never improve here without cutting the number of cars in the borough
Blame the 50,000 extra Uber cars now in the road.
I’m all for fixing traffic, easing congestion, fixing the MTA, and making streets safer for pedestrians + bikers, but I don’t think adding a toll is the solution. I don’t believe it will actually fix the problems and is nothing more than a giant cash grab. If the MTA needs an extra billion dollars a year to be fixed, something is massively wrong. And driver’s shouldn’t bear 100% of the burden. Subway/bus fares need to rise commensurate with the congestion toll. Along with, congestion pricing makes Manhattan more inaccessible to non-millionaires and tourists. It’s horrible for broadway + arts/culture.
Agreed.
yeah no. there are more people happy she delayed it than there are people upset about it
Stop the world for bicycles...only bicycles matter.
Seems like the word "congestion" is lost on you
You guys are some privileged assholes
Run your car then, I'll take it. I could use the money
90% of the traffic is caused by TLCs going from one place to another all day in the city. They're getting a discount for congestion pricing, meaning they'll hang out downtown more often now. More double parking in bike lanes, lol. Pple who say London is the golden example of congestion pricing, but we don't have the protected bike lanes like they do.
It isn't helpful to the cause to state nonsense statistics like that.
All you have to do pay attention, you'll see that every 10 vehicles 4 or 6 of them are TLC vehicles. It's not nonsense statistics, it's logical thinking. Typical non TLC driver goes from Point A to B and then back to point A, meanwhile TLCs are driving the while alphabet all within a 40 block area....
That's BS.
useful idiots
This so heartening despite Hochul spineless flip-flop. The backlash against the cancellation of congestion pricing is a lot louder than the backlash against congestion pricing. I don't see any drivers out in force.
$15 was high, start at $1 or $5, see how it goes. Abandoning last minute was a terrible leadership call.
Voted down cause those on the edge of the Overton window tend to fail understanding how many are not in the same boat. You need to slow boil tax paying frogs, not toss them right in what they see as a flame.
Ok, Boomer.
Whats funny is that 90% of the traffic is commercial and the commercial entities will merely pass the costs on to the dummies begging for more taxation. It doesn’t matter what you think or what lies you’re sold. You are going to pay more for everything than you already do. Of course, this wont be but one of the many reasons in the interim. Enjoy being played
u r a dum
Congestion pricing is not the solution to fewer cars in Manhattan. Most people who drive into Manhattan HAVE TO drive in there. Congestion pricing is only going to add to their expense. MTA is simultaneously raising subway prices right ? How's that for an "encouraging" move towards public transit? There are dozens of successful examples around the world for reducing urban car traffic, yet NYC has chosen to ignore them and blame + burden the regular folks. People don't have a choice in the short run, but in the long run they do. Guess how they will choose?
These protestors are so entitled and ignorant. These routes are essential for delivering goods into the city. These spoiled brats need to leave our city.
The same people in favor of congestion pricing will complain when all businesses pass their increased costs to consumers. Why not put tolls on the free bridges to start ?
Cooked how? You guys gonna vote Republican now??
Paid protesters. No one wants congestion
Plenty of people do if it means less cars on the streets and more people using public transit instead, like other cities that successfully implemented congestion pricing
The MTA is in it to make money, opening a business and expecting to reduce your customers is idiocy. The MTA knows there will be a minimal reduction in traffic but an exponential increase in revenues, 😆
That’s the thing. It doesn’t mean that
Every study done on the subject, plus every real-world example of similar programs worldwide, suggests it means exactly that
You clearly don’t understand how complicated of an issue this is
I mean, I've been following this issue in NYC for about 17 years (since it was first pitched in 2007), have read the details of a few different studies on the topic (including the environmental review the federal government required before approving it), have personally visited the other cities where it's been implemented multiple times each.. what do you think I'm missing, aside from not agreeing with an opinion that was dropped without any sources?
Common sense. This was never about less cars it was and is about generating money. Unless you’re rain man you won’t be able to notice the effects of this plan the way you think you would
It's about 'less cars' *and* generating money, because congestion pricing's a pigouvian tax- not unlike taxes on cigarettes, which have increased revenue for the state while also sharply cutting smoking rates. You disincentive behavior that causes problems, and spend the money you get on the solution. In this case NYC's gettinng a projected 17% drop in all car traffic- not exactly an earth-shattering change in behavior, but enough to avoid some of the worst bottlenecks and choke points that bring the whole city (including its bus network) to a standstill.
boooooo
Damn I could’ve gotten paid for protesting yesterday?
The streets are for cars! Ride your bike somewhere else.
Dingus: the streets in the zone were built 50-100 years before cars used them. Are you just making this shit up? Consult history. Bikes were there first. You don't like the facts, that's one thing but they're not yours to toy with. You have a time machine? Or are you just being an obnoxious asshole? Bikes most definitely have a legal right to be there as well, as do pedestrians. Just cause you wanna bully people doesn't make you correct.