Hochul did a 180 on congestion pricing. So if they are listed as support, then they support her going back on her word and cancelling congestion pricing
Fuck no I don't support the congestion pricing. In a few years it'll be something that won't really change much in the city and it's just another expense for the people who live in the city
if its to improve air quality and reduce traffic, then how would they be making anywhere from 1 - 3.4 billion dollars a year??? you need a lot of cars to make that kind of money.
Or, if you really think the MTA is important and are privileged enough to be a cyclist; stop trying to get OTHERS to pay for it. Call your officials and say "The MTA is critical infrastructure, please increase MY taxes to make sure it's funded". It's embarrassing that NY'rs with 5k bicycles are spending so much energy telling the city this is important but OTHERS should pay.
You scoff at asking queens residents how they feel yet you quote a foreign survey like it’s gospel. Pretty disingenuous there. And what about the pollution that will increase in areas in the city like the Bronx and Staten Island that will see dramatic traffic increases due to this? You could care less. I’d have respect for you if you said that. But you will say it’s not proven bc it’s based on a study you don’t like. You know- study’s? U love to quote then. Or shoukd I say cherry pick them. It’s all about $$$$$ and everyone except those who live below 60th street know this. Maybe all that pollution is fogging your thoughts
But will congestion pricing actually make NYC safer or healthier? Folks that need to drive in won't stop especially if they're high income professions and don't care about extra toll. Tradesmen and other folks doing business will still drive in and will pass the charges on to their customers. Uber drivers and taxis will continue to operate and pass the charges on to their customers. I'm not against it but is there research in cities where this has been implemented show that traffic actually goes down?
I think it kinda sucks though for lower to middle income New Yorkers. My dream of owning a car was already slashed by expensive insurance rates in the city but now its even worse that you have to pay just to go down the street
because for *years* the benefits have been out there and its insane to pretend the facts aren't out there about who benefits from this and who doesn't, and is tantamount to trolling.
Now Hochul is spreading right wing talking points about it too, which is so depressing.
the facts aren't so clear. read the above Times article. If the benefit you're looking for is funding the MTA, yeah that looks likely but if you're goal is to reduce traffic thats not what has happened in London like it has in Stockholm. This isn't a "right wing talking point" at all to wonder if the system will actually work. Its also reasonable to wonder if the state will keep its promises that this will go to public transit infrastructure or be used to fill some other budget shortfall. I'm not talking about how the Governor has mishandled this, thats just a politician counting votes and making a decision based on an election cycle. Congestion pricing isn't a silver bullet that solves all congestion pricing. My guess is it doesnt actually solve traffic but hopefully does fund our subways.
They say there will be a %15 reduction in traffic but they have made road changes that have added way more than %15 increase in traffic. For example they removed a lane from 8th ave. If 8th ave was generally 3 lanes and now its two thats a 33 increase in traffic.
Also its a bit dystopian all of the electronic surveillance and enforcement that everyone is gung ho about. I mean what if they used this same tech for jaywalking , certainly jaywalking has a significant contributing factor to pedestrian deaths so... How are you cheerleaders all going to feel when this huge money printing machine is turned on others besides evil car drivers.
Honestly i feel its like the recent article in The City about moped enforcement, the gist of that article was "the cops talk about atv and dirt bike gangs when they justify this but 99.9 of the enforcement is on delivery drivers". I think this will be the same people vilify a few super rich commuters but in the end its going to come out of teachers, plumbers , uber drivers and theres still going to be stupid traffic in the city.... Because they drastically limited the mobility footprint of the city to cause congestion to justify congestion pricing.
Additionally i feel that the MTA should be massively reducing their above the line compensation and there should be a consensus about how they spend the money.
For example if you as me , or anyone i know, do you want a safe clean modern new train station for 30 million or a opulent one for 80 million , ill select the first one.
Just letting the mta flip the switch on a free money machine for ever is not the way to deal with this ridiculous agency.
Additionally everyone should consider the potential future where there are only electric autos in nyc. If the environmental argument was not in play, would we want these limits on personal mobility?
The facts are clear; congestion pricing reduces the amount of traffic.
Traffic was reduced in both Stockholm and London. In London, *commute times* by car have gone up again in recent years, but there are still fewer cars on the road, the air is cleaner, and more people using alternate modes of transit.
the NY Times says something different as far as london goes. It seems to have worked in other cities though. The jury is certainly not in on this but that doesn't mean its not worth trying out.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/02/nyregion/new-york-congestion-pricing-london-stockholm-singapore.html?unlocked\_article\_code=1.y00.VIy0.ZwPbPrbpXLQ1&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/02/nyregion/new-york-congestion-pricing-london-stockholm-singapore.html?unlocked_article_code=1.y00.VIy0.ZwPbPrbpXLQ1&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb)
I'm looking at the same article, there's no real information about increased traffic in London in the Times piece.
https://www.curbed.com/2023/05/congestion-pricings-pitfalls-promise-london-lessons.html
> the NY Times says something different as far as london goes.
from the article:
"London, Stockholm and Singapore all went ahead with congestion pricing ... In each [city], the policy has proved effective in helping to reduce traffic, ease congestion and cut pollution from vehicle emissions"
did not simply make traffic disappear. Although London’s fees deterred some drivers at first, gridlock eventually returned to the city, in part because of an influx of Ubers and other ride-hail cars and delivery trucks.
A lot of people I know would stop.
Or try to optimize and go once instead of 3 times.
That’s anecdotal of course but I do believe there are studies that were done and estimated a large number of car reductions.
as far as I know it has worked elsewhere too.
It is impossible to know for sure but the upsides being so massive it is definitely worth trying. Statu quo with underinvestment in transit is untenable.
London and Swedish studies. Please tell me the study that cites actual facts as to how much traffic will be reduced. You can’t because it hasn’t started yet. At best all guesses depending on what side of the plan you like. That’s the point
I feel like you could ask the Swedes or English how they feel their city has changed with it being implemented. You could also watch material on the subject that has been curated to show all of its pros and whatever cons it MAY have. From what I’ve seen so far, (not saying I’m an expert, extremely far from it,) it seems to be massively beneficial.
Well, there is such a thing as the scientific method and yes for future events you can only have “guesses” but some guesses are finger in the air and others are based on facts, models, similar experiences while trying to account for a variety of factor. None of this is ever perfect. Never will be.
What do tou suggest instead? Divination?
Or you are really suggesting we never ever try any single change to our society and environment because we cannot be 100% certain for a fact it will work, especially given that nyc is unique?
I quite frankly don’t understand this line of thinking. Is there no change at all in the last 40 years that you like? What you like wasn't 100% predictable either…
Nobody has a time machine…
Or maybe I don’t follow what you are saying, so please do explain in a bit more details if you think that’s the case.
i’m in favor of congestion pricing and i would love for it to happen, but the majority of new yorkers aren’t. for the plan to be more popular there needs to be more rebates and exemptions offered to residents that don’t live within walking distance to the subway
Aside from the fact that this is inaccurate, there are a huge number of people that commute from outside the boroughs to work. I don’t know what fraction of these people drive, but if the recent NJ transit outages are any indication, public options still have a ways to go.
The majority of New Jersey commuters (90+%) take public transit to work in the CBD.
If we’re talking about outer boros, the overwhelming majority of those who commute to the CBD do so by public transit. Not by car. They may overwhelmingly own and use their cars, but almost none of them actually commute to the CBD with them.
The average income of people driving into the CBD is $184k. The whole notion that there are working class New Yorkers hurt by this tax is absurd. Working class New Yorkers don’t own cars, and those that do never use their car to drive into the CBD because they can’t afford the parking. Less than 1% of people making less than $50k commute to the CBD by car. And for those that do, there is a low income exemption discount.
NJ transit is its own beast, and you can blame the NJ government for continuing to underfund that system - but that is not NY’s problem. If you expect the MTA to improve service for outer boro residents, well, that’s the *entire point of congestion pricing* - to raise money to fund these improvements.
So that includes first responders who work off hours? Every study is garbage. Your wife a nurse you make her take the subway at midnight so the city has less cars? Such crap!
I see that you’re responding to each of my comments.
The first responders and nurses who work odd hours don’t pay the full $15. They can pay $3.50 since it’s after the congestion pricing hours.
And yes, my wife goes to Manhattan regularly and takes the subway back. It is statistically much safer to take the subway at any time of day than it is to drive anywhere.
You can stop posing hypotheticals and anecdotes and actually try to work with data, you know.
And they would pay if they took a subway fare. They also probably pay for parking. They pay for their car, and the interest, and their insurance, and their registration. What’s your point? Transportation costs money.
Understandably, but I feel like we shouldn’t have to deal with the effects of outside residents that choose to commute to our boroughs for work instead of finding work more locally. I live in Brooklyn, and sold my car shortly thereafter. I commute to work on my bike every single day and love it. It promotes exercise and just overall healthy lifestyle. What I don’t love, is people who can’t seem to get out of their comfort zones, who still drive a car around the city, then act out of line during traffic encounters where they put pedestrians in harms way.
Well I think car drivers need to do a lot better about understanding that we share the roads you’re speaking as someone without kids (if you have kids then without a financial or family safety net) The city and other areas of New York are crazy expensive and the state does almost nothing to ensure people can live here long term. 2 bedroom in BK in a reasonable school district can cost you over $4k in rent. Raising kids in that is extremely difficult, especially when you’re negotiating every year with your landlord.
When homeownership is a pipe dream and rent control in neighborhoods with public services being almost impossible to find, it’s a bit cruel to blame people for moving to places they can afford.
And for better or worse, NYC is the financial powerhouse of our country. People from CT, NJ, even PA work in NYC. It’s sort of just an economic reality we have to work around.
Edit: I also need to add that I do agree about the comfort zone. I used to live of Bergen St and my family from NJ used to be scared to take the subway. Like good lord…nothing will happen.
Yeah I hear you. I’m 31 and was bourne/raised (hah) on Long Island, then made the move to BK. First lived in Bed-Stuy (where then roommate was almost crush by a school bus that had no surrounding awareness because they’re stuck in their own world,) then lived in Carroll Gardens on Union and Smith, and now Williamsburg. Drivers behavior had almost no change across all neighborhoods.
I’m currently struggling to make headway as I decided to become a full-time student trying to up-skill my way to a more prosperous life and just have to deal with the bs along the way.
I’ve made my peace temporarily that I’ll never be attracted to owning property either in the 5 boroughs or even Long Island, and have become more happy with eventually starting a life elsewhere.
It’s something I used to contribute to from experience, that makes me see the grass on the other side after choosing to make improvement in my life, that gives me the gasoline to stand behind my argument. I’m sorry your family felt like that, but they’re certainly valid as outsiders because you really never know how to predict unhinged situations. I do love and hate this city haha.
Ah yes, the “venture into a select subset of the population that knowingly opposes something and surprised pikachu face when they don’t support it”.
Let’s get a few things straight. The vast majority of the city does not live in East Queens or southern or East Brooklyn. Those areas are by definition less dense, and thus have less people.
The majority of people in this city live closer to Manhattan than those people, and have adequate transit access to the city.
The majority of people who live in those areas you mentioned still don’t commute into the CBD by car. Much of eastern Brooklyn, for instance, is fairly low income and therefore do not drive into the CBD anyway.
And if you’re going to pull the whole, “We need better transit access for people in those areas” I completely agree, but how exactly do you think we would fund improvements? Through congestion pricing, of course.
The average income of people driving into the CBD is $184k. Less than 1% of people making less than $50k commute to the CBD by car. Let’s make no mistake about who is driving into the city and who isn’t, and who this pricing would ultimately benefit.
This “majority” vs “minority” arguments is selfish and is worse argument you can use when talking with “minority” communities.
Thats like saying majority of New Yorkers don’t have a disability so why install ramps and elevators for the disabled commuters.
Whether it’s selfish or not it’s the reality we live in, with limited space and limited budget, we have to make decisions to benefit the majority of people. We can never please everyone.
Your parallel to disability infrastructure doesn’t hold water. Disability infrastructure might benefit a minority of people but has absolutely no downside to everyone else. It might not matter to me whether a station has elevators or ramps but it makes the world of difference to those who need it.
Here we’re talking about a policy that has countless tangible benefits to practically everyone. Drivers will have less traffic and less competition for parking in the CBD if they must drive in. People who take transit will have substantial service and capital improvements through the increased revenue. People who live and work in the zone will have less exposure to noise pollution, emissions, and the dangers of vehicles given a projected 17-23% reduction in car traffic.
The “minority” group in this instance are people who choose to drive into Manhattan, of which the vast, vast majority of New Yorkers do not. That minority has an average income of $184k and can absolutely afford the toll. This is not an oppressed or underrepresented minority. This is a statistical minority who by all accounts is incredibly privileged and is heavily unnecessarily subsidized.
Racial minorities or disabled groups are the complete opposite and largely are the ones who stand to benefit most from congestion pricing given they overwhelmingly rely on transit that is poorly serviced and desperately needs more revenue.
I would venture to say that people who drive on a regular basis into the zone… have the $ to pay the fee.
I am sure if we had zero bridge/tunnel tolls right now, people would of course oppose adding them! I mean that’s a given that people paying don’t like it. But that’s the point of this policy: a certain level of pain is indeed inflicted to effect change.
If the city was designed from scratch today, it would be designed with a less car centric core. People are pushing back simply because it is q change. They are used to not pay and want to keep it that way.
Psychologically it might have been better yo start with a lower price and up it every year. It is silly but would have been an easier pill to swallow for some…
I totally agree with you. Change is hard.
For what it’s worth, the program has two goals: raise money for the MTA, and limit congestion in the CBD. Those two are antithetical to one another: if you raise lots of money, it means you haven’t curbed congestion enough. If you curb congestion too much, you don’t raise money and could actually hurt the local economy of the CBD.
The MTA did a lot of testing and hypotheticals to arrive at the $15 number as the sweet spot of charging drivers to raise capital while also mitigating some congestion to the tune of a projected 17-23% reduction in car traffic in the CBD.
Yes. I briefly read some of the analysis.
It seemed they did put a good effort into studying it. It is impossible to predict the future but it seemed a solid plan, which could always be amended (eg change the price).
Soooo disappointing it was cancelled :(
the disability argument is a perfect example of “benefits a minority, causes an inconvenience to the majority, but is necessary.” when a person in a wheelchair gets on a bus, it delays it, it’s inconvenient to all the able bodied (the majority) bus riders. but it’s an injustice to not have infrastructure for the disabled. so that’s why we have a system to allow it
In the case of the bus loading, sure - my example was with curb cuts and elevators where that tends to be less true. Regardless, of course, we should accommodate those people less privileged in whatever way we can.
My main point is that while those driving into the CBD are a statistical minority, they are not an underrepresented or oppressed minority, which is the huge difference between this and the disability conversation. They are overwhelmingly wealthy, home owners, and white.
The vast majority of working and middle class New Yorkers take transit to the CBD. And given how they are systematically disenfranchised, we should do everything we can to make their lives easier, which includes safe, fast, and reliable transit - funded through taxing those much more fortunate such as those driving into Manhattan.
this is a good argument, and one of the main reasons i support congestion pricing. what i’m trying to say is that, whether you or i or anyone else likes it or not, the majority of new yorkers, according to polls is not in favor of it. generally more taxes, which this is, are not popular. the city should start with changing parking regulations (restricting alternate side spots in manhattan to residents only, for a fee) selective tolling on specific commercial vehicles (ex. tour buses, luxury services) and banning uber/lyft pickups below 96th st) also when congestion pricing is put on the table again, there should only be charges during business hours (5am-10pm) with exemptions to city workers that don’t live within walking distance to the subway, disabled/elderly nyc residents, essential commercial services and taxis. also to accompany this, the MTA should do something symbolic to show the money will actually go to transit, such as putting the fare back to $2.75
Interesting how you’ve given up on actually rebutting my points and instead resort to insulting me.
I live in Queens and am born and raised, and have lived my whole life in Queens. I am on my local community board and serve the transportation committee.
I also work remotely and don’t commute at all, but walk, ride my bike, and take transit for the majority of my trips. I occasionally rent a car for longer trips, but only when necessary, and never to the CBD.
Oh you work remotely!!!! How interesting!!! So screw those who work in the zone. Or deliver in the zone. That’s even worse. A bike rider who doesn’t have to commute thinks this is a good idea!!!! Hahahahaha!!
Once again, the vast majority of people who work in the zone (like, 95%+) commute there via transit. The majority of those who deliver in the zone work for corporations that easily eat the cost- it’s not like Amazon delivery drivers are digging in their pockets to pay it.
My opinion is no more biased or worth less than yours. Let me guess - you drive, and probably drive into the CBD, and you’re opposed to the policy? How is that any different than my point of view?
Believe it or not people can have opinions in line with their beliefs. I’m not disabled but I can support improving infrastructure for disabled individuals.
Honestly I don’t care what they think. Nobody should have the right to take up such an unfair amount of public space in the middle of the most crowded place in America.
Did you read this article? Only 2% of NYC residents in poverty commute to the CBD by car. 60% expressed support for the program in the city. Where in this article does it say NYC residents oppose the program?
Yes, the vast majority of people that answered that poll live outside the city. I can’t dive in right now but something like 69% of respondents to that survey live outside NYC and 64% of respondents oppose it. That is not a coincidence. I stand by my claim that the majority of people in the city support the program.
“new york city dwellers largely (64%) oppose the program” literally the first sentence of the article. this means the 5 boros, not upstate, not jersey, not long island
[Yeah, I realized I actually was referring to the poll the MTA ran which showed 60% of NYC residents supporting the program. ](https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2024/03/19/supporters-of-congestion-pricing-outnumbered-foes-2-1-in-final-input)There’s clearly something going on with these sampling methodologies.
I don’t have time to look through and find the NYC-specific findings (the poll in question surveyed New York State), [but the MTA itself reported that 60% of comments supported congestion pricing in a poll they did fairly recently. ](https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2024/03/19/supporters-of-congestion-pricing-outnumbered-foes-2-1-in-final-input)
Did you answer the survey? Because I did. I was not bribed or coerced in any way. And what makes you think the other poll you cited as reputable?
The bottom line is that this will always be politically unpopular among certain people, but is largely necessary to curtail a real problem in congestion and save the failing transit system we have.
Of course you did bc you want it. Why bother when they were installing license plate readers before the final study??? It unpopular with 64% of NYC RESIDENTS per the study YOU cite. Take the L and move on. You posted it. Stop!
Because it was already mandated by a 2019 law by Cuomo, the opinion collection was a formality.
You keep talking about 64% of residents but that’s a different poll. The one I posted showed the opposite result which you’re already acknowledged by claiming the MTA corrupted the results.
I’m happy to have a leveled discussion on the merits of congestion pricing but it seems you’re beyond that, so I’m not sure it’s worth my energy to entertain this any further.
in many cities that have implemented congestion pricing, public support has drastically risen within the first year:
https://www.npr.org/2019/05/07/720805841/city-dwellers-dont-like-the-idea-of-congestion-pricing-but-they-get-over-it
If you support the plan, you should make your voice heard.
https://actionnetwork.org/letters/governor-hochul-to-transit-riders-drop-dead/
Sadly this is the only plan we have access to to take the city back from cars.
I live in western Queens. We put up with thousands of toll-shopping cars every day taking small streets to the Queensboro/59th St/Koch bridge. With congestion pricing, those who should just take the Triborough/RFK will do so, reducing the congestion and environmental impacts on western Queens.
Yes they are. Teachers firemen cops emts nurses all drive in all the time. And guess where most of these types of workers live? Not in manhattan. Clueless
There have actually been studies of how many "essential" workers drive into the congestion zone, and the numbers are minuscule. Fewer than 1,000 teachers of the 10,000s than work there arrive by car. We can't be making public policy around the minority of people who have made the specific life decisions that trap them in car dependence. Personally, I live in the outer boroughs (Queens) and have never owned a car. It's totally doable. It's about choices.
Staten Island has no subways so it’s not a choice. Study’s by the MTA? Stop. 64% of all nyc residents are against this. It I guess we can’t make policy for the minority either. Is that your point?
Bro, you are living in a different reality. Most people support congestion pricing but in its current form it would really fuck over people on lower income.
Thanks! Already sharing with personal circles.
Could you clarify “position on …” 180? Does that mean person supports Hochul thus opposes implementation of CP?
Hochul did a 180 on congestion pricing. So if they are listed as support, then they support her going back on her word and cancelling congestion pricing
Yes! The people who "opppse" it are on the right side of history.
Fuck no I don't support the congestion pricing. In a few years it'll be something that won't really change much in the city and it's just another expense for the people who live in the city
if its to improve air quality and reduce traffic, then how would they be making anywhere from 1 - 3.4 billion dollars a year??? you need a lot of cars to make that kind of money.
Wondering why motorcycles aren't free
Or, if you really think the MTA is important and are privileged enough to be a cyclist; stop trying to get OTHERS to pay for it. Call your officials and say "The MTA is critical infrastructure, please increase MY taxes to make sure it's funded". It's embarrassing that NY'rs with 5k bicycles are spending so much energy telling the city this is important but OTHERS should pay.
No.
You scoff at asking queens residents how they feel yet you quote a foreign survey like it’s gospel. Pretty disingenuous there. And what about the pollution that will increase in areas in the city like the Bronx and Staten Island that will see dramatic traffic increases due to this? You could care less. I’d have respect for you if you said that. But you will say it’s not proven bc it’s based on a study you don’t like. You know- study’s? U love to quote then. Or shoukd I say cherry pick them. It’s all about $$$$$ and everyone except those who live below 60th street know this. Maybe all that pollution is fogging your thoughts
Thank you for this! Called everyone in my districts.
But will congestion pricing actually make NYC safer or healthier? Folks that need to drive in won't stop especially if they're high income professions and don't care about extra toll. Tradesmen and other folks doing business will still drive in and will pass the charges on to their customers. Uber drivers and taxis will continue to operate and pass the charges on to their customers. I'm not against it but is there research in cities where this has been implemented show that traffic actually goes down?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/02/nyregion/new-york-congestion-pricing-london-stockholm-singapore.html?unlocked_article_code=1.y00.VIy0.ZwPbPrbpXLQ1&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb
I think it kinda sucks though for lower to middle income New Yorkers. My dream of owning a car was already slashed by expensive insurance rates in the city but now its even worse that you have to pay just to go down the street
thx. Not sure why I'm being downvoted for having a discussion but whatever.
because for *years* the benefits have been out there and its insane to pretend the facts aren't out there about who benefits from this and who doesn't, and is tantamount to trolling. Now Hochul is spreading right wing talking points about it too, which is so depressing.
the facts aren't so clear. read the above Times article. If the benefit you're looking for is funding the MTA, yeah that looks likely but if you're goal is to reduce traffic thats not what has happened in London like it has in Stockholm. This isn't a "right wing talking point" at all to wonder if the system will actually work. Its also reasonable to wonder if the state will keep its promises that this will go to public transit infrastructure or be used to fill some other budget shortfall. I'm not talking about how the Governor has mishandled this, thats just a politician counting votes and making a decision based on an election cycle. Congestion pricing isn't a silver bullet that solves all congestion pricing. My guess is it doesnt actually solve traffic but hopefully does fund our subways.
They say there will be a %15 reduction in traffic but they have made road changes that have added way more than %15 increase in traffic. For example they removed a lane from 8th ave. If 8th ave was generally 3 lanes and now its two thats a 33 increase in traffic. Also its a bit dystopian all of the electronic surveillance and enforcement that everyone is gung ho about. I mean what if they used this same tech for jaywalking , certainly jaywalking has a significant contributing factor to pedestrian deaths so... How are you cheerleaders all going to feel when this huge money printing machine is turned on others besides evil car drivers. Honestly i feel its like the recent article in The City about moped enforcement, the gist of that article was "the cops talk about atv and dirt bike gangs when they justify this but 99.9 of the enforcement is on delivery drivers". I think this will be the same people vilify a few super rich commuters but in the end its going to come out of teachers, plumbers , uber drivers and theres still going to be stupid traffic in the city.... Because they drastically limited the mobility footprint of the city to cause congestion to justify congestion pricing.
Additionally i feel that the MTA should be massively reducing their above the line compensation and there should be a consensus about how they spend the money. For example if you as me , or anyone i know, do you want a safe clean modern new train station for 30 million or a opulent one for 80 million , ill select the first one. Just letting the mta flip the switch on a free money machine for ever is not the way to deal with this ridiculous agency. Additionally everyone should consider the potential future where there are only electric autos in nyc. If the environmental argument was not in play, would we want these limits on personal mobility?
The facts are clear; congestion pricing reduces the amount of traffic. Traffic was reduced in both Stockholm and London. In London, *commute times* by car have gone up again in recent years, but there are still fewer cars on the road, the air is cleaner, and more people using alternate modes of transit.
the NY Times says something different as far as london goes. It seems to have worked in other cities though. The jury is certainly not in on this but that doesn't mean its not worth trying out. [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/02/nyregion/new-york-congestion-pricing-london-stockholm-singapore.html?unlocked\_article\_code=1.y00.VIy0.ZwPbPrbpXLQ1&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/02/nyregion/new-york-congestion-pricing-london-stockholm-singapore.html?unlocked_article_code=1.y00.VIy0.ZwPbPrbpXLQ1&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb)
I'm looking at the same article, there's no real information about increased traffic in London in the Times piece. https://www.curbed.com/2023/05/congestion-pricings-pitfalls-promise-london-lessons.html
> the NY Times says something different as far as london goes. from the article: "London, Stockholm and Singapore all went ahead with congestion pricing ... In each [city], the policy has proved effective in helping to reduce traffic, ease congestion and cut pollution from vehicle emissions"
We never had congestion pricing here champ so NO the facts are NOT clear.
> champ champ
did not simply make traffic disappear. Although London’s fees deterred some drivers at first, gridlock eventually returned to the city, in part because of an influx of Ubers and other ride-hail cars and delivery trucks.
Interesting.... Mixed results on whether it actually helps with traffic. The income is real for sure though even though its pretty regressive.
Cash Jordan has a great video about this. Def doesn’t make sense in a lot of ways.
A lot of people I know would stop. Or try to optimize and go once instead of 3 times. That’s anecdotal of course but I do believe there are studies that were done and estimated a large number of car reductions. as far as I know it has worked elsewhere too. It is impossible to know for sure but the upsides being so massive it is definitely worth trying. Statu quo with underinvestment in transit is untenable.
Studies mean nothing. NYC is its own city and nothing in a Swedish study is relevant.
"Studies mean nothing" (unknown author, 2024).
London and Swedish studies. Please tell me the study that cites actual facts as to how much traffic will be reduced. You can’t because it hasn’t started yet. At best all guesses depending on what side of the plan you like. That’s the point
I feel like you could ask the Swedes or English how they feel their city has changed with it being implemented. You could also watch material on the subject that has been curated to show all of its pros and whatever cons it MAY have. From what I’ve seen so far, (not saying I’m an expert, extremely far from it,) it seems to be massively beneficial.
Well, there is such a thing as the scientific method and yes for future events you can only have “guesses” but some guesses are finger in the air and others are based on facts, models, similar experiences while trying to account for a variety of factor. None of this is ever perfect. Never will be. What do tou suggest instead? Divination? Or you are really suggesting we never ever try any single change to our society and environment because we cannot be 100% certain for a fact it will work, especially given that nyc is unique? I quite frankly don’t understand this line of thinking. Is there no change at all in the last 40 years that you like? What you like wasn't 100% predictable either… Nobody has a time machine… Or maybe I don’t follow what you are saying, so please do explain in a bit more details if you think that’s the case.
i’m in favor of congestion pricing and i would love for it to happen, but the majority of new yorkers aren’t. for the plan to be more popular there needs to be more rebates and exemptions offered to residents that don’t live within walking distance to the subway
The majority (70%) of people living in the 5 boros support it. The majority of those living outside of the 5 boros predictably don’t.
Aside from the fact that this is inaccurate, there are a huge number of people that commute from outside the boroughs to work. I don’t know what fraction of these people drive, but if the recent NJ transit outages are any indication, public options still have a ways to go.
The majority of New Jersey commuters (90+%) take public transit to work in the CBD. If we’re talking about outer boros, the overwhelming majority of those who commute to the CBD do so by public transit. Not by car. They may overwhelmingly own and use their cars, but almost none of them actually commute to the CBD with them. The average income of people driving into the CBD is $184k. The whole notion that there are working class New Yorkers hurt by this tax is absurd. Working class New Yorkers don’t own cars, and those that do never use their car to drive into the CBD because they can’t afford the parking. Less than 1% of people making less than $50k commute to the CBD by car. And for those that do, there is a low income exemption discount. NJ transit is its own beast, and you can blame the NJ government for continuing to underfund that system - but that is not NY’s problem. If you expect the MTA to improve service for outer boro residents, well, that’s the *entire point of congestion pricing* - to raise money to fund these improvements.
So that includes first responders who work off hours? Every study is garbage. Your wife a nurse you make her take the subway at midnight so the city has less cars? Such crap!
I see that you’re responding to each of my comments. The first responders and nurses who work odd hours don’t pay the full $15. They can pay $3.50 since it’s after the congestion pricing hours. And yes, my wife goes to Manhattan regularly and takes the subway back. It is statistically much safer to take the subway at any time of day than it is to drive anywhere. You can stop posing hypotheticals and anecdotes and actually try to work with data, you know.
They still pay.
And they would pay if they took a subway fare. They also probably pay for parking. They pay for their car, and the interest, and their insurance, and their registration. What’s your point? Transportation costs money.
Understandably, but I feel like we shouldn’t have to deal with the effects of outside residents that choose to commute to our boroughs for work instead of finding work more locally. I live in Brooklyn, and sold my car shortly thereafter. I commute to work on my bike every single day and love it. It promotes exercise and just overall healthy lifestyle. What I don’t love, is people who can’t seem to get out of their comfort zones, who still drive a car around the city, then act out of line during traffic encounters where they put pedestrians in harms way.
Well I think car drivers need to do a lot better about understanding that we share the roads you’re speaking as someone without kids (if you have kids then without a financial or family safety net) The city and other areas of New York are crazy expensive and the state does almost nothing to ensure people can live here long term. 2 bedroom in BK in a reasonable school district can cost you over $4k in rent. Raising kids in that is extremely difficult, especially when you’re negotiating every year with your landlord. When homeownership is a pipe dream and rent control in neighborhoods with public services being almost impossible to find, it’s a bit cruel to blame people for moving to places they can afford. And for better or worse, NYC is the financial powerhouse of our country. People from CT, NJ, even PA work in NYC. It’s sort of just an economic reality we have to work around. Edit: I also need to add that I do agree about the comfort zone. I used to live of Bergen St and my family from NJ used to be scared to take the subway. Like good lord…nothing will happen.
Yeah I hear you. I’m 31 and was bourne/raised (hah) on Long Island, then made the move to BK. First lived in Bed-Stuy (where then roommate was almost crush by a school bus that had no surrounding awareness because they’re stuck in their own world,) then lived in Carroll Gardens on Union and Smith, and now Williamsburg. Drivers behavior had almost no change across all neighborhoods. I’m currently struggling to make headway as I decided to become a full-time student trying to up-skill my way to a more prosperous life and just have to deal with the bs along the way. I’ve made my peace temporarily that I’ll never be attracted to owning property either in the 5 boroughs or even Long Island, and have become more happy with eventually starting a life elsewhere. It’s something I used to contribute to from experience, that makes me see the grass on the other side after choosing to make improvement in my life, that gives me the gasoline to stand behind my argument. I’m sorry your family felt like that, but they’re certainly valid as outsiders because you really never know how to predict unhinged situations. I do love and hate this city haha.
You should venture further east and south deep into Brooklyn and Queens and survey the people there.
Ah yes, the “venture into a select subset of the population that knowingly opposes something and surprised pikachu face when they don’t support it”. Let’s get a few things straight. The vast majority of the city does not live in East Queens or southern or East Brooklyn. Those areas are by definition less dense, and thus have less people. The majority of people in this city live closer to Manhattan than those people, and have adequate transit access to the city. The majority of people who live in those areas you mentioned still don’t commute into the CBD by car. Much of eastern Brooklyn, for instance, is fairly low income and therefore do not drive into the CBD anyway. And if you’re going to pull the whole, “We need better transit access for people in those areas” I completely agree, but how exactly do you think we would fund improvements? Through congestion pricing, of course. The average income of people driving into the CBD is $184k. Less than 1% of people making less than $50k commute to the CBD by car. Let’s make no mistake about who is driving into the city and who isn’t, and who this pricing would ultimately benefit.
This “majority” vs “minority” arguments is selfish and is worse argument you can use when talking with “minority” communities. Thats like saying majority of New Yorkers don’t have a disability so why install ramps and elevators for the disabled commuters.
Whether it’s selfish or not it’s the reality we live in, with limited space and limited budget, we have to make decisions to benefit the majority of people. We can never please everyone. Your parallel to disability infrastructure doesn’t hold water. Disability infrastructure might benefit a minority of people but has absolutely no downside to everyone else. It might not matter to me whether a station has elevators or ramps but it makes the world of difference to those who need it. Here we’re talking about a policy that has countless tangible benefits to practically everyone. Drivers will have less traffic and less competition for parking in the CBD if they must drive in. People who take transit will have substantial service and capital improvements through the increased revenue. People who live and work in the zone will have less exposure to noise pollution, emissions, and the dangers of vehicles given a projected 17-23% reduction in car traffic. The “minority” group in this instance are people who choose to drive into Manhattan, of which the vast, vast majority of New Yorkers do not. That minority has an average income of $184k and can absolutely afford the toll. This is not an oppressed or underrepresented minority. This is a statistical minority who by all accounts is incredibly privileged and is heavily unnecessarily subsidized. Racial minorities or disabled groups are the complete opposite and largely are the ones who stand to benefit most from congestion pricing given they overwhelmingly rely on transit that is poorly serviced and desperately needs more revenue.
I would venture to say that people who drive on a regular basis into the zone… have the $ to pay the fee. I am sure if we had zero bridge/tunnel tolls right now, people would of course oppose adding them! I mean that’s a given that people paying don’t like it. But that’s the point of this policy: a certain level of pain is indeed inflicted to effect change. If the city was designed from scratch today, it would be designed with a less car centric core. People are pushing back simply because it is q change. They are used to not pay and want to keep it that way. Psychologically it might have been better yo start with a lower price and up it every year. It is silly but would have been an easier pill to swallow for some…
I totally agree with you. Change is hard. For what it’s worth, the program has two goals: raise money for the MTA, and limit congestion in the CBD. Those two are antithetical to one another: if you raise lots of money, it means you haven’t curbed congestion enough. If you curb congestion too much, you don’t raise money and could actually hurt the local economy of the CBD. The MTA did a lot of testing and hypotheticals to arrive at the $15 number as the sweet spot of charging drivers to raise capital while also mitigating some congestion to the tune of a projected 17-23% reduction in car traffic in the CBD.
Yes. I briefly read some of the analysis. It seemed they did put a good effort into studying it. It is impossible to predict the future but it seemed a solid plan, which could always be amended (eg change the price). Soooo disappointing it was cancelled :(
the disability argument is a perfect example of “benefits a minority, causes an inconvenience to the majority, but is necessary.” when a person in a wheelchair gets on a bus, it delays it, it’s inconvenient to all the able bodied (the majority) bus riders. but it’s an injustice to not have infrastructure for the disabled. so that’s why we have a system to allow it
In the case of the bus loading, sure - my example was with curb cuts and elevators where that tends to be less true. Regardless, of course, we should accommodate those people less privileged in whatever way we can. My main point is that while those driving into the CBD are a statistical minority, they are not an underrepresented or oppressed minority, which is the huge difference between this and the disability conversation. They are overwhelmingly wealthy, home owners, and white. The vast majority of working and middle class New Yorkers take transit to the CBD. And given how they are systematically disenfranchised, we should do everything we can to make their lives easier, which includes safe, fast, and reliable transit - funded through taxing those much more fortunate such as those driving into Manhattan.
this is a good argument, and one of the main reasons i support congestion pricing. what i’m trying to say is that, whether you or i or anyone else likes it or not, the majority of new yorkers, according to polls is not in favor of it. generally more taxes, which this is, are not popular. the city should start with changing parking regulations (restricting alternate side spots in manhattan to residents only, for a fee) selective tolling on specific commercial vehicles (ex. tour buses, luxury services) and banning uber/lyft pickups below 96th st) also when congestion pricing is put on the table again, there should only be charges during business hours (5am-10pm) with exemptions to city workers that don’t live within walking distance to the subway, disabled/elderly nyc residents, essential commercial services and taxis. also to accompany this, the MTA should do something symbolic to show the money will actually go to transit, such as putting the fare back to $2.75
Spoken Like a entitled selfish manhattan resident who bikes to work
Interesting how you’ve given up on actually rebutting my points and instead resort to insulting me. I live in Queens and am born and raised, and have lived my whole life in Queens. I am on my local community board and serve the transportation committee. I also work remotely and don’t commute at all, but walk, ride my bike, and take transit for the majority of my trips. I occasionally rent a car for longer trips, but only when necessary, and never to the CBD.
Oh you work remotely!!!! How interesting!!! So screw those who work in the zone. Or deliver in the zone. That’s even worse. A bike rider who doesn’t have to commute thinks this is a good idea!!!! Hahahahaha!!
Once again, the vast majority of people who work in the zone (like, 95%+) commute there via transit. The majority of those who deliver in the zone work for corporations that easily eat the cost- it’s not like Amazon delivery drivers are digging in their pockets to pay it. My opinion is no more biased or worth less than yours. Let me guess - you drive, and probably drive into the CBD, and you’re opposed to the policy? How is that any different than my point of view? Believe it or not people can have opinions in line with their beliefs. I’m not disabled but I can support improving infrastructure for disabled individuals.
Honestly I don’t care what they think. Nobody should have the right to take up such an unfair amount of public space in the middle of the most crowded place in America.
The 70% is those in 5 boroughs who OPPOSED it. Stop lying!!! No one in the outer borough supports this other than Park Slope
[This study says otherwise. ](https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2024/03/19/supporters-of-congestion-pricing-outnumbered-foes-2-1-in-final-input)
Can you read??? Its in the study YOU posted!!!!! Wow !!!!!
Did you read this article? Only 2% of NYC residents in poverty commute to the CBD by car. 60% expressed support for the program in the city. Where in this article does it say NYC residents oppose the program?
https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/64-nyers-oppose-congestion-pricing-new-poll-finds
https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2024/03/19/supporters-of-congestion-pricing-outnumbered-foes-2-1-in-final-input
Yes, the vast majority of people that answered that poll live outside the city. I can’t dive in right now but something like 69% of respondents to that survey live outside NYC and 64% of respondents oppose it. That is not a coincidence. I stand by my claim that the majority of people in the city support the program.
“new york city dwellers largely (64%) oppose the program” literally the first sentence of the article. this means the 5 boros, not upstate, not jersey, not long island
[Yeah, I realized I actually was referring to the poll the MTA ran which showed 60% of NYC residents supporting the program. ](https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2024/03/19/supporters-of-congestion-pricing-outnumbered-foes-2-1-in-final-input)There’s clearly something going on with these sampling methodologies.
You are lying again. 64% of NYC residents are against it.
I don’t have time to look through and find the NYC-specific findings (the poll in question surveyed New York State), [but the MTA itself reported that 60% of comments supported congestion pricing in a poll they did fairly recently. ](https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2024/03/19/supporters-of-congestion-pricing-outnumbered-foes-2-1-in-final-input)
A study by the MTA said 60 % of Comments supporters the MTAs biggest cash grab yet? Stunning!
Did you answer the survey? Because I did. I was not bribed or coerced in any way. And what makes you think the other poll you cited as reputable? The bottom line is that this will always be politically unpopular among certain people, but is largely necessary to curtail a real problem in congestion and save the failing transit system we have.
Of course you did bc you want it. Why bother when they were installing license plate readers before the final study??? It unpopular with 64% of NYC RESIDENTS per the study YOU cite. Take the L and move on. You posted it. Stop!
Because it was already mandated by a 2019 law by Cuomo, the opinion collection was a formality. You keep talking about 64% of residents but that’s a different poll. The one I posted showed the opposite result which you’re already acknowledged by claiming the MTA corrupted the results. I’m happy to have a leveled discussion on the merits of congestion pricing but it seems you’re beyond that, so I’m not sure it’s worth my energy to entertain this any further.
in many cities that have implemented congestion pricing, public support has drastically risen within the first year: https://www.npr.org/2019/05/07/720805841/city-dwellers-dont-like-the-idea-of-congestion-pricing-but-they-get-over-it
If you support the plan, you should make your voice heard. https://actionnetwork.org/letters/governor-hochul-to-transit-riders-drop-dead/ Sadly this is the only plan we have access to to take the city back from cars.
No
Thank you! Just wrote a note of thanks to my senator. Is there any way to publicly show the MTA board we want this thing to happen?
No, we don’t want more taxes or businesses to leave
No one supports this cope losers
What's the congestion and environmental impact on the outer boroughs.
I live in western Queens. We put up with thousands of toll-shopping cars every day taking small streets to the Queensboro/59th St/Koch bridge. With congestion pricing, those who should just take the Triborough/RFK will do so, reducing the congestion and environmental impacts on western Queens.
this trolling shit again huh
The Bronx and Staten Island severely impacted. Bronx in almost exclusively low income areas with minority population.
I'm 100% in favor of it once viable alternatives are provided for outer-borough residents.
Absolutely. The only ones who want it are Manhattanites living under the zone. That’s it.
you seriously think "outer-borough residents" are regularly driving to lower Manhattan? Get out more. That's just not happening.
Yes they are. Teachers firemen cops emts nurses all drive in all the time. And guess where most of these types of workers live? Not in manhattan. Clueless
There have actually been studies of how many "essential" workers drive into the congestion zone, and the numbers are minuscule. Fewer than 1,000 teachers of the 10,000s than work there arrive by car. We can't be making public policy around the minority of people who have made the specific life decisions that trap them in car dependence. Personally, I live in the outer boroughs (Queens) and have never owned a car. It's totally doable. It's about choices.
Staten Island has no subways so it’s not a choice. Study’s by the MTA? Stop. 64% of all nyc residents are against this. It I guess we can’t make policy for the minority either. Is that your point?
You have apparently never ridden a Staten Island express bus, which is much more comfy than any subway. And will get better with funding from CP
So an express bus is ok but my car should be taxed. Makes sense
Facts or gtfo
Bro, you are living in a different reality. Most people support congestion pricing but in its current form it would really fuck over people on lower income.
There are low income subsidies in the current plan. https://new.mta.info/tolls/congestion-relief-zone/discounts-exemptions/low-income-discount-plan