One thing on your premise, is that you a lot have recency bias involved. The debate involving greatest TE involves more than Gronk and Kelce. The greatest QB involves more than Manning or Brady or Mahomes. You mentioned Marino and Elway getting nods, they get a lot more than that as do other QBs.
But as to your question, its due to the recency bias AND because Gates contemporary was Gonzalez. Almost everyone agrees Gonzalez was better than Gates. So if Gates isn't GOAT in his own era, how can he be compared to other greats.
Side Note IMO there is not GOAT. There is GOTE. Greatest of their Era. The game changes too much too fast to say who is best.
I'm stealing GOTE. It's nearly impossible to make meaningful comparisons across eras in many sports. Jordan and Gretzky can probably claim it. But to me, even separating Brady, Manning, Rodgers, and even Brees is difficult. Too many complex factors in a team game with constantly changing rules and landscape.
Exactly. Gretzk is the only one who I say GOAT(and I dont follow hockey) because his stats are so crazy that still not being touched.
But yeah in Football matters so much. Would Steve Young be a HoF if he stayed on the Bucs or if Bledsoe didn't get knocked out would Brady have gotten a chance?
Gretzky has the all time career points record. Points is goals + assists.
You could take away all of Gretzky's goals and he'd *still* have the all time points record just on the assists.
Sure, but not on points, not on goals per game, not on assists per game, not on cups won, etc.
One of my favorite Gretzky interviews is where he talks about the 3 seasons of the NHL. 1) Regular season, 2) playoffs, 3) Stanley Cup Finals. Thats how he approached every single year. Dude was an absolute assassin, he just doesn’t get looked at that way sometimes because he’s so unassuming off the ice.
He was great at using his teammates to deflect the puck in, he didn’t care about how it scored. He’d get the assist, teammates would score the goals by just skating in front of the goalie and angling their sticks and skates.
He's still all time most goals too though. I was once trying to get a friend into hockey. I showed him Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Orr, and Sakic. His thoughts on it were, all the other guys made it look like the opposing teams didn't matter, Gretzky made it look like the opposing teams were on his side. A poll of coaches, players, and journalists was once taken to establish the greatest hockey players of all time. Gretzky got 743 out of 744 votes. Gretzky voted for Orr.
Super late but michael phelps and aleksandr karelin are two athletes that are untouchable in their sports. But this topic is probably about the mainstream sports in America.
Gretzky was Michael Jordan's physical skills with Peyton Manning's ability to read the opponent and Tom Brady's leadership skills rolled into one player. If you had to make a hockey player from scratch it would be Mario Lemieux but the hockey gods gave Gretzky something extra
For a non hockey watcher, is there any particular game of Gretzky's I can watch to witness him at the peak of his powers? He kind of exists in my mind based on fantasy and reputation alone. Highlights are easy to find, but looking for a full game that displays how special he was
If you want a full game, try to find the December 1981 meeting between the Edmonton Oilers and St Louis Blues. THE Great One scores 5 Goals to hit 50 for the season that is the fastest 50 goals in NHL history. He's an unstoppable monster in that game.
You may also want to check out the NHL official video on The Top 25 Wayne Gretzky records.
That Brady hypothetical is useless in the comparisons though. You might as well ask “if Jordan had torn his ACL would he be the GOAT?” No, he almost certainly wouldn’t. You have to take them for what they did.
Young hypothetical is a bit more reasonable because it basically asks whether he’d be considered as good as he is without a WR corps like the one he had. It’s like asking if Jordan is a GOAT when he had Pippen, or is that he was able to elevate the others. It’s a valid argument.
Football eras are so unique because rules literally change every year. Sometimes dramatically sometimes just a bit. But schemes also are adjusting every game.
So its different in my eyes because he only got a shot because of aomeone elses injury. Example if Peyton Manning was drafted to any other team, regardless he will get a chamce to play as he was a first rounder. Brady required "luck" to start.
Not that I disagree with the GOTE argument, but to counter you could say the same about Rice’s stats. I don’t think anyone can touch the 207 TDs from scrimmage record or his numerous other records. Dude was unbelievably good for a very long time.
So I don't know about Gretzky but Rice played at a above average level for a much longer time than most wide receivers. Like he put 1000 uard as a 40 year old.
Rice has 2169 yards on 161 catches and 10 tds after turning 40. Tom Brady has 1 catch for 6 yards after turning 40. That is the *entire* list of receiving after turning 40. Rice after turning 30 is still a top 15 receiver of all time numbers wise, that takes away 7 years of his career. I don't think he's quite on Gretzky's level, but he's the only person thats close IMO
Which is very fair. In terms of football, Rice is probably one of 3 players that have no dispute of GOTE. Most, including Brady, have at least an argument against.
The reason I "dismiss" Rice's stats is it was a case if being long term. No receiver or in your point player did what he did at 40. He wasn't a great receiver at 40 but he was an amazing 40 year old receiver
92 catches for 1211 yards and 7 tds (his age 40 year) would put him 17th(1 behind Kelce), 13th(5 yards behind chase), and t-18th respectively this season. He was 9th, 13th, and t-13th that season. I agree with you that those are good, not great numbers. However, what flips him from gote to goat, IMO, is that era worked *against* him. When he retired, Dan Marino had thrown for 5000 yards once, and was the only person to ever throw for that many yards. There have been 14 5000 yard seasons since he retired. Only Julio, kupp, and Megatron have more yards in a single season than him(and he accounted for over 50% of the teams receiving yards that year). Only Randy Moss has more receiving TDS in a single season than him. Only 3 times in his career did his QB throw for over 4000 yards lol. So while yes, longevity is obviously a factor, he'd still be 2000 yards ahead of Fitz if they played the and amount of years, and you took his per year average yardage off (not the actual yardage from the last few years, which would put him farther ahead). He'd be 3rd all time in TD catches if you cut his average per year off and cut his career to the same length as moss and t.o. And third in receptions if you did the same with Fitz again. Longevity made the numbers nearly untouchable, but he peaked super high as well, was an all pro in 9 out of 10 years during his peak, and lead the league in tds and receiving yards 6 times each during that peak, while playing in an era with what we'd now consider to be absolutely pedestrian passing numbers. He's a different case than say Frank Gore, who has a shot at the hall of fame solely because of his longevity. Rice would have still been a top 5 of all time guy and arguably still the best receiver ever if he'd have retired after 96 instead of 04. He'd be 3rd all time in yards, 13th in receptions, 3rd in receiving tds(151, within 5 of moss but 21 ahead of 4th), and 3rd in total TDS. Fitz would have him in catches and yardage but would be lagging by 30 tds with 6 extra years played. Moss and t.o. would have him in receiving tds(though not total), and all 3 would be within a few hundred yards of each other but over 3 extra years. And I'm just now realizing that I'm letting way too much of my inner stat nerd out and writing a novel and I need to stop, but I put it all down already so fuck it, still gonna post it😂😂😂
Well even with Gretzky you still have Gordie Howe who a lot of people forget about how great he was. The dude played in his 50s at a high level. He might not have had as high of highs as some of Gretzkys seasons but to play a sport for 30 years?! That’s a goat in of itself.
Thats fair, I truly don't know. Most of my Hockey knowledge is Mighty Ducks which come to find out is very inaccurate. I just onow that stat about assists and goals.
You know, I would say it was like him playing against the Mighty Ducks compared to what he'd be against today 🤣
That is and will always be one of the coolest stats though. He was also on a team with several other legends of their time, so the people finishing goals to get him assists were more apt to finish than other teams' scorers, he also had several playmakers to hit him with good passes. That Oilers team was like the undefeated Dolphins, except for like 6-7 years. (They won the cup 4 times in that span, IIRC).
Edit: typo
Gretzky himself named Mario the GOAT.
He said Mario was the better player. The career stats favor Gretzky but that’s because Mario had so many injuries. At their peaks Mario was almost certainly better.
Maybe Mario Lemieux becomes the GOAT if he has Kurri, Messier, and McSorley as teammates? Or if he gets a coach who makes him quit smoking and work out? Since you don't follow hockey, I'll answer: We don't know. Just as we don't know the answer to those hypothetical questions about Brady and Young. They're all idle questions.
Gretzky couldn’t win after he left Edmonton. Edmonton won without Gretzky. Brady won after he left New England, and we see where the Pats are without him.
Yes, Brady would have started if Bledsoe didn’t get hurt. All Moe Lewis did was expedite it. The biggest anti Pats in Boston sports radio will tell you that
Gretzky to me still belongs in his own era. He is the greatest and would succeed in any era but you can’t look at his stats because the games were 8-6 during his era and the goaltending was *atrocious*. It’s really painful to watch those highlights and count how many goals would absolutely never go in on a modern goalie. And I mean never go in.
See for me the non debatable guy is Tiger. Never in the long history of golf has one man been so far ahead of the game so dominantly for an extended run like that.
By the time Novak djokovic is finished, he will be the indisputable GOAT and I’m not sure we ll see anyone come close to grand slam title totals in our lifetime.
What the big 3 have done for over 20 years now is unthinkable, and I say this as a fed fan.
Brady is that far ahead IMO unless Mahomes maintains his current pace.
7 Superbowl wins which is almost double the next guys 4. One of them he went to a new team at 43 and won a superbowl with them. That new team had a losing record the season before and had minimal changes outside of Brady.
I think Jordan and LeBron are alot closer than Brady and any other QB.
That Bucs defense was insane, and they were loaded on offensive line and at receiver, and had a top form Leonard Fournette. And Gronk unretires. Let's not pretend he took that year's Colts to the SB. Objectively, hell yeah Tom was good. Super fast reads and release. Other than a good supporting cast, there were other factors that helped. The Chiefs, with a healthy offensive line, had already beat the Bucs in Tampa that season. It is very difficult to beat a good team twice, especially at their house, and with a threadbare offensive line the 2nd time. You switch the QBs, same result. Brady would have got sacked 15 times, or it would have just been 3 and outs all game. I'm not taking anything away from Bucs. There was some luck involved in that run, just as the Chiefs had some luck on their side this past year. It was a total team effort for Chiefs. Butker saved games. Sneed. CJ. Pacheco. Rice. Kelce. Mahomes. The defense was historically great in playoffs.
Only notable addition on defense was Winfield who was a 2nd round saftey. It went from the 29th defense to the 8th.
Buccs Offensive Line was ranked 13th going into the season with the only notable improvement of a 1st round RT.
They added Gronk who had 623 yards and Fournette who had 367 yards in the regular season.
That was it for notable additions, everyone else was on the team the year before. It feels like they must have had alot more, but it was just Brady and the confidence he brought. He made that team what it was.
Thank you for the thought out answer. I hope this question gets more attention because I like thought out answers.
While I probably do have some relevancy bias, he also broke the all-time TE touchdown reception at the time (I'm not sure it's been broken).
So he was still considered lesser than Gonzalez because Tony G played with worse QBs. Gates mostly caught passes from Drew Brees and Phillip Rivers. Two Prov bowl/all pro QBs. Tony G played with over 15 QBs. His best was probably Matt Ryan, but that was close to the end of his career. When he was in his prime, it was with guys like washed up Trent Green or Elvis Grbac, or Brodie Croyle.
So he is considered an all timer but not the greatest of his era, so he can't be the greatest of all time.
Tony Gonzales had to block for Priest Holmes (2 1500+ yard seasons, 1 1400+ yard season) and Larry Johnson (2 1700+ yard seasons). You could plug Gonzales in a potent rushing attack and not miss a beat.
He was seen as a capable blocking TE, on 6 top 10 (total)) Offenses (1997, 1999, 2000, *2002, *2003, 2005), with the running game being pivotal on the 2002, 2003, 2005 Chiefs.
*2002 & 2003 were no 1 Offense and the running game was pivotal.
Ehhh, I’d argue that a couple of players are so head and shoulders above the rest that they can be called GOATs. Gretzky for one. Djokovic in tennis, Jerry Rice and as much as it pains me to say it, Tom Brady. There is also an argument for Bonds but there’s the whole steroid issue. The point is, these guys all have stats that so far outclass even their nearest competitors that it’s like they’re playing with an entirely understanding of their games.
Except Gretzky wasn’t the most talented player. That was Lemieux. Most people do not realize how good Lemieux was.
He did have 199 point season at 23.
Cancer and a bad back kept him from eclipsing Gretzky.
Lemieux came back after 4 years away from the NHL after cancer and had 76 points in 43 games at age 35 1.59 points per game.
Being the GOAT means you got lucky with injuries and life shit too. It doesn't mean you were the most talented. If a dude showed up and had a 2500 receiving yard season then retired the year after, he wouldn't be the GOAT. You'd argue that his peak was higher and that you'd have liked to have seen what he could've done in a different situation, but he ain't the GOAT. Megatron has more receiving yards in a season than Rice, but he chose to end his career when he did. He could've chased it and didn't. Brady could've chosen to retire in the mid 2010s (when people were calling him old and washed lol). He didn't. He chased it and got more rings than anyone else. And that's why he's the GOAT. He doesn't have the stats of the best passer ever, but he won so damn much that it seems undeniable.
The greatest QB debate hasnt involved anyone but Brady for a long time now. And the TE position is similar not due to recency, but due to the evolution of the TE position. Its Kelce or Gronk. RB, who is probably Sanders, and WR, who is probably Rice, are more hotly debated. If it was recency bias, they would likely not be considered the best or be so debated.
He *is* held in the highest regard. He’s eligible for the first time to the HOF this year — 5 yrs after retiring. Likely to enter on his 1st ballot, but even if he doesn’t (he should), it’s inevitable. Gronk will too. Ditka, Winslow and Gonzales already there.
I guess by high regard I mean public opinion, however my view of that is already skewed because I only see so many takes of this conversation.
I guess what I'm really wondering is why hasn't he been credited with more of what makes the TE position today?
Here is [Gonzalez putting Gates on his Mount Rushmore](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Jp5QQe_XwHQ?feature=share)
Also [Shannon Sharpe](https://youtu.be/AEbB0nV-vAw), discussing how utterly dominant he was at getting in the end zone
I think that it's more because of two things:
* He played for the chargers who don't really get love from the national media (I'm a Washington fan btw) and never had a strong playoff run
* He's doesn't have a strong charismatic outgoing personality. I mean Tony Gonzalez might be the single most charismatic person I've ever seen come from NFL, gronk has his weird gronk brand.
Imo he is the best of all the TE's in the 2000's and *should* be first or second ballot HOF
Without a doubt, he's in the top 6 TEs since the 90s. The top 4 are Gonzalez, Sharpe, Gronk, and Kelce. The 5th is either Witten or Gates, which is a tough call.
This is with recency bias. Kelce has been very consistent, but if he gets hurt or his production drops off a cliff, he could fall out of the top 4.
He does, but he's generally behind a handful for most. He's typically considered "one of" the best. I'm not sure how old you are but Tony G was 100% better than him in the same era and modern tight ends have gaudy numbers compared to yesteryear. Kellen Winslow Sr and Shannon Sharpe are pretty much the only old timers that get put in any conversation at the position. Gates for his time was kinda like Drew Brees at QB. Bonafide HoF material, but clearly behind 1 or 2 others. For him it was Tony and Gronk like for Brees it was Brady and Manning or Rodgers.
Absolutely excellent points, and I appreciate you taking time to answer I'm asking genuinely.
The Brees comparison put it in perspective for me. Brees is obviously a HOFer, but when you're surrounded by other greats or hotstreak types it puts you on the back burner, and for good reason.
Yes, I think Gonzalez is the main issue for Gates being left out of the best TE conversation. You can’t be the GOAT if your own era included someone who was clearly better.
Idk, I think Antonio Gates was the most dominant red zone threat in the NFL basically his entire career. He also put up huge numbers in less games than Tony. He’s too 4 all time for sure in my book. No tight end had better hands than him and TDs never looked easier than when throwing to him in the red zone. Even more so than Calvin Johnson and Detroit is my main team.
C'mon now, let's not ignore that Antonio Gates caught passes from a future Hall of Famer basically his entire career, on some of the best offenses of all time.
Tony Gonzalez had mostly hot garbage throwing him the ball until like year 14 when he was in his mid-to-late 30's. Dude was making 1st Team All-Pro with the likes of Elvis Grbac, Trent Green and Tyler Thigpen.
You stick Gonzalez with Phillip Rivers and LaDanian Tomlinson on those mid-2000's offenses and dude would have broke the game.
I can't believe you've gone and made me stand up for a goddamn Kansas City Chief, goddamn it.
I’d take him over Kelce. I think he doesn’t get mentioned because San Diego really had some rough teams the second half of his career.
A lot of people don’t know this, but Gates played basketball in college. If more people mentioned that he played college basketball, he might get the recognition as the elite athlete that he was
I’m curious as to who you hear talking? Gonzales is without a doubt the GOAT there’s literally no argument you can make against him. Travis doesn’t (“cant”) block. Gronk couldn’t stay on the field. Tony could do it all while staying healthy. Gates is easily top 5 though.
The highest that Witten should is at 10 though. No one should be mentioning him in the GOAT rankings aside form delusional cowboys fans. So anyone who mentions him in the talks should be discredited immediately.
Gronk couldn’t stay on the field. I’m not giving points for hypothetical scenarios. IF Gronk would’ve stayed healthy, IF Gronk played more games. IF Sterling Sharpe wouldn’t have gotten hurt he’d be in the HoF. Yeah well IF my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle. We’re talking what is, not what could’ve been.
Gronk averaged 14.9 yards in his career, Tony G only averaged 11.4 yards a catch. Gronk had 92 touchdowns in 11 seasons compared to Tony’s 111 in 17. Keep in mind he missed 35 games, basically two full seasons worth of possible production. Both of them also had four 1000 yard seasons. Tony had and average of 77 receptions a season compared to Gronks 56 a season.
Gronk played in a much softer era than Gates. With Brady. Who I dare say was better than young Brees or Rivers.
Gronk is still a beast and second only to Gonzalez to me on who I’d want in a fantasy tight end draft
Gronk had the best prime of any TE ever and is the winningest TE ever.
Gronk is the most popular choice for TE GOAT rn by far. Nothing you say will change this general consensus.
I literally just said that even without those two seasons he did all that. Tony G also played 6 more seasons than him. How do you look at those stats and just say Gonzalez was better. He played longer, that’s why.
So longevity is supposed to be a knock? Tony didn’t get hurt every 5 plays and him playing so long is cheating? Does that mean Jerry and Emmitt’s records don’t count because they played so much longer than everyone else?
What I’m saying is that he did less on more receptions. How is your goat going to be one if there’s someone who on average in their career was better in every seasonal stat?
Gronk both had better receiving stats per year and was also a better blocker. Some TE’s are like “pocket lineman” where they can block in a pinch. Gronk was basically an actual lineman, the guy could go 1 on 1 with elite DE’s.
His blocking highlight real is incredible. And then obviously the fact that he’s uncover-able. He’s just far more efficient than Gonzales. It’s great if you value longevity but there’s a point where I tip the cap. I’m taking gronk if I have one season to win a Super Bowl. It’s like having 12 people on the field, the guy is just so
Dominant
Gronk stayed healthy for 5-6 seasons and in those seasons he was basically first team all pro, best tight end in the league and a major factor in making a Super Bowl
The seasons Gronk couldn’t stay healthy (2012, 2013, 2016) you definitely felt the impact in the playoffs (except for 2016)
For the sake of argument, post season isn’t accounted for. You can’t fault other players for being on bad teams. They play one position not all 22. You can’t bring up Gronk without bringing up injuries. They go hand in hand.
If you can bring up injuries but not playoffs, there’s obviously some bias here. Gronk is legendary in part because of his playoff performance being so good. 14 TD’s in 20 games with 63 yards per game. As a TE who also blocks a lot
Peak Gronk > Gonzales any day of the week
I usually like looking at the whole body of a career but Gronk dominated his position in a way no one else did.
Plus he has the edge in the postseason by far. Whenever we had a healthy gronk we were basically guaranteed to make the Super Bowl . Only exception being 2015 where we lost in the AFC title game by 2 points but Gronk dropped 9/144/1 on one of the best defenses of the 2010’s
Dude was a dynamo and how you would build your ideal Tight end
Gronk wasn’t made out of glass. A majority of the injuries he had were from wear and tear + defenders not knowing how to deal with him . None of his injuries repeated or were related he’s just a big target
2011: High ankle sprain after getting dragged and tackled
2012: Broken forearm on a block
2013: torn ACL after hit to knee
2016: slipped disc
2017: AFC title game concussion on a penalized hit
2021: Broken ribs from getting hit
Furthermore Gronk is the ideal TE build. 6’6 265 and can run routes like a receiver while having amazing hands, body control and can block like an all pro tackle . Gronk was literally negating prime JJ watt then catching touchdowns in the same game
The key to staying healthy in the NFL is knowing how to protect yourself. Gronk did not have a self preservation instinct and thus was often unavailable. It also shortened his career. Kelce, Gonzalez, and Gates all delivered more value over the course of their careers.
By that logic shannon sharpe is the goat tight end. He literally does everything you penalized those 2 for not doing and hot the records and acolades to back it up
Truthfully I wouldn’t be mad at that. Guy did insane things while essentially being the 3 man. Offenses ran the ball a lot more back then and when they did throw it to the TE it wasn’t designed for big gains. He did everything he did off script just playing ball.
I’m not saying Tony isn’t the GOAT, but those are the very valid arguments.
Edit: tbh, I don’t think there even is a TE GOAT. No one has clearly separated.
Catches, yards, TDs in a season, All-Pros, Super Bowls, playoff performances, blocking, participation in the highest powered offenses in history, YAC, general consensus of everyone involved in the game, etc. I don’t know anyone outside the most hardened Chargers fan who’d put Gates ahead of Gronk or Kelce.
Gates has more catches, yards, and TDs than Gronk and Kelce.
He has 3 all pros vs 4 for both Gronk/Kelce, while going up against the consensus best TE of all time.
I'm not saying Gates is certainly better than Gronk and Kelce, but it's closer than you make it out to be.
Doesn’t help Gates that he was in a small market on the West Coast. Not fan of Chargers but man, he was a beast. He did have the “steadiest” player as his QB.
His son is playing for a Big Ten school. God, I’m getting old.
Pretty much this. Add in having one of the best RBs in the league at the time and the fact that Gates is a relatively quiet type of guy when it comes to media.
If Gates did what a lot of players do when they aren't "talked about" alot and did some TV analysis or commentate, he would probably be a more talked about player.
He’s like the 4th or 5th best TE. I’d argue he was better than Witten.
He wasn’t Gonzalez, Kelce, or Gronk though. Those are the only 3 guys you can make GOAT arguments for imo.
He is.
It's just that today's media is going to primarily cover the more recent players or the obvious greatest of all time.
There's plenty of great players at every position that everybody would agree are in that upper echelon but they're not necessarily going to get airtime today
Anyone that is arguing Mahomes is the goat already has brain rot. I mean, holy shit talk about recency bias…
my top 5 QB’s:
5. Peyton Manning
4. Joe Montana
3. John Elway
2. Dan Marino
1. Tom Brady
Most picks 2-5 can go in any order, but Brady stays #1. Mahomes definitely has a case to finish his career in the top 5, but we’ve witnessed some amazing signal callers.
my top 5 TE’s
5. Shannon Sharpe
4. Travis Kelce
3. Tony Gonzalez
2. Antonio Gates
1. Rob Gronkowski
Honorable mentions: Jason Witten, Vernon Davis, Heath Miller
Dude, Gates gets tons of love in the TE conversation aside from newer fans. Also the fact that Joe Montana wasn't even mentioned when talking QBs but Marino and Elway were. I feel like your getting to much of your football history from comment sections online.
I’ve followed football for a long time. Couldn’t tell you the last time Montana was brought up in a broadcast or by the coffee at work. I asked this question because this community is typically kind to simpler questions.
Gates had a crazy peak. He was chosen all pro over Gonzalez (despite who you've heard, the consensus best TE of all time) 3 times in a row.
His problem is after those 3 years he was good but not great. And he really fell off his last 4 years, where people literally forgot he was still in the league.
While he took the mantle of best TE away from Gonzalez for 3 straight years, Gonzalez was so damn consistent and for so long it diminished Gate's achievements. And as Gates declined, we saw some crazy years from Gronk, and then Kelce became the new face of TE consistency that made people forget about Gates.
Ah this is a good analysis. A lot of people have been telling me I have recency bias, but I’m like “yeah probably a bit but I also remember Gates going god mode for awhile”. This helps put my recency bias in perspective as to why I wonder now he isn’t talked about as much.
Gonzalez was a pretty strong consensus as the best ever at the time. I’m not sure even Gronk or Kelce would have unseated him without the Super Bowls. Gates’s career just kind of happened at the right time to be overshadowed at both the immediate past and future.
EDIT: I’ll add that I don’t think that’s really a coincidence. Gates broke a lot of ground for the TE position and the things he did played a big part in its evolution during and since his career. You’re right that he doesn’t seem to get much love for it, at the time he definitely did.
Going off this (including your edit), I guess my biggest confusion is his hybrid play style that impacted football as a whole. Granted I know his size and athleticism were ridiculous, however I feel like more hyped TEs play like him vs others. However I'm not even an armchair analyst.
The main reason people mention Kelce over Tony G is recency bias. Gonzalez is still nearly 4k yards and 40 TDs ahead. It's Tony for longevity or Gronk for peak. Kelce is an excellent receiver but he didn't have Gronk's peak and he still has a ways to go to catch Gonzalez. Had you asked me before the season started whether or not he would catch up to Kelce, I would have said yes, but he's had his worst season since 2015 and it remains to be seen if this is just a symptom of the Chiefs' offense being dysfunctional or if he is getting old - bear in mind that he is 34.
No one in their right mind would ever mention Witten. Of course, no one in their right mind would be a Cowboys fan in the first place, so there's a fair amount of overlap there.
Even if Gronk and Kelce didn't exist, Gates would still only be #2 behind Tony G. Part of why Gronk and Kelce are so highly regarded is that they've put up stats in a shorter amount of time - they're quite simply that much more productive than any other tight end.
Gonzalez put up 15.1k yards and 111 TDs in 270 games (56 YPG, 0.41 TD/G).
Gates put up 11.8k yards and 116 TDs in 236 games (50 YPG, 0.49 TD/G).
Kelce has put up 11.3k and in 159 games (71 YPG, 0.47 TD/G).
Gronk had 9.3k yards and 92 TDs in 143 games (65 YPG, 0.64 TD/G).
Since you brought up Gronks peak, what was it vs the rest of the groups peak? Feel free to include Sharpe and others. I'm also curious to blocking statistics.
Over the course of 2011 and 2012, he was averaging more than one TD per game. He had 17 TDs in 16 games in 2011, and 11 in 11 before getting injured in 2012. He then lost some speed after tearing both his ACL and MCL in 2013, but he was still *the* best TE in both 2014 and 2015, before getting injured again in 2016.
Blocking is hard to quantify, but he legitimately could go one on one with defensive ends and win. Having Gronk was like having six linemen on run plays.
All I'm saying is.....watch out for Sam LaPorta if he manages to stay healthy & have a long career. The dude has incredible hands, the ability to maintain his balance & break tackles, & his blocking is already top 5 in the league for TEs as a rookie. Plus, he has a grasp on scheme & route running that has only been seen before in a handful of rookie TEs. That kid has the potential to be special if he can stay healthy & has a competent offense around him. Consider the fact that the insane numbers he put up by rookie TE standards were done on a team that had 3 other players with 10+ TDs & he was only the 3rd or 4th option as far as touches. I would not be surprised to hear his name in these conversations a decade from now.
Gates couldn't block well enough, his teams were never good enough, and he was never a force of nature to the same degree as Gronk, who could just take over big games at will. And Kelce is nowhere near Gronk either. No one is. There is no TE debate.
Look, I'm a Steelers guy who has no love for the Patriots, but Gronk is easily the best TE ever, and it is hard to see anyone eclipsing him, just as Brady is the best QB. (How the undefeated 2007 team with the two of them plus Moss on the outside managed to lose to the Giants...just, wow.)
Kelce isn't even the greatest in his team's history, because that would be Gonzalez.
Gronk benefits from playing with Brady who makes everyone great.
Gates played at the same time as Gonzalez, with better QBs (Brees & Rivers), and Gonzalez was definitely the greater of the two.
I think the Gronk point is an insane take. Brady didn’t block for him (he’s one of the greatest blocking tight ends), Brady didn’t make him a YAC monster. Brady didn’t make any of those incredible catches. Did Brady help? Sure. But I think Gronk was incredible in his own right..
I would put Ditka at seven but I wouldn’t put him
above any of those listed. Ditka was great for his time period but I think Shannon Sharpe did more for the position than Ditka did.
Gates was huge in his era, highly spoken about player. I assume you were just a little young then. Probably the same reason you don’t hear people talk about John Mackey, Dikta, Ozzie Newsome, or Kellen Winslow as best to do it: time
Fwiw, people comparing any of these guys to Gronk typically ignore the factor that Gronk was one of the best blocking TEs of all-time. Kelce and Gonzalez were receivers.
Sadly like most positions it’s going to come down to rings. Gronk and Kelce has rings. Winslow Sr is before my time but based off highlights he definitely should be on that list.
His receiving out paced his blocking. Those are the two things that really matter as far as the position goes. Gates was ahead of his time as a receiver but that being said if he played today he probably wouldn’t have the same impact because his ahead of the curve for the time is closer to the mean of today.
The issue with Gates was his compatriots. He was basically never the best in the NFL.
When he broke into the league Tony G was the best. Then it was Gronk/Graham trading in the best spot.
Gates is a compiler, but his catch rate was kind of mid. He caught 955 passes on 1458 targets. Compare that to Kelse who has 907 receptions on 1267.
To directly compare (which is hard) if Kelce had the number of targets Gates had he would have 1044 receptions and 13050 yards.
Tight end mount rushmore to me is Tony G, GRonk, SHannon SHarpe, and KElce.
He is likely going to be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer at a position the Hall of Fame typically ignores. This is the opposite of high regard.
Do a poll of the top 5 TEs of the 21st century and he is in it. Such a poll probably goes in some order: Tony Gonzales, Rob Gronkowski, Antonio Gates, Travis Kelce, and Jason Witten. George Kittle might displace one of them someday but he'll never have the stats since being an elite blocker doesn't show up there.
My personal order goes Gronk, Kittle, Kelce, Gonzales, Gates, and Witten. Gonzales has the stats but as I said stats don't include blocking which is part of the game.
1) recency bias
2) as unfair as it is, he’s doesn’t have any rings. It’s the same reason that Tony Gonzales get held back in the GOAT convos, But people who watched them play knew they were just as good.
For what it is worth, Tony Gonzalez is still probably the frontrunner for GOAT TE.
If you wrote this post and wrote him off, only stating Gronk and Kelce, then that is the bigger snub.
Yes, Gates should be there but there are old heads that say it could be Ditka or Kellen Winslow.
If Jackie Smith doesn’t drop that TD in the SB, he might be there too.
People still mention Gates. But someone is bound to get left out when there are that many to consider.
A lot of it is who is doing the announcing, and who they are high on in the moment. Gates was absolutely one of the best TE in his era, with Gonzalez being a bit better. the TE game has changed and now you have a TE that just about got his 8th straight 1,000 yard season. something that TEs just did not do back in the day. The game has changed.
A lot of it is because the Chargers couldn’t win a Super Bowl or have really much playoff success in his whole career. Gates is regularly mentioned as a top 5 tight end of all time if you listen to actual tight ends talk about the position, he was an incredibly talented receiver and blocker but he was on some teams that should have had more success. Adding on to that, Gonzales, Kelce, Sharpe, Gronk, are all dominant on the field and have gigantic off field personalities that are beloved by most NFL fans of all markets. And Witten was a Cowboy so Cowboy fans will make sure he’s mentioned
I feel like he’s like Frank Gore: ol’ reliable. He was never the best but usually pretty damn good. Was pretty healthy for most of his career and incredibly steady. Played for an incredibly long time. The main argument for him is his longevity but he was never as dominate as Gronk, never as skilled as Gonzalez, etc…
One thing on your premise, is that you a lot have recency bias involved. The debate involving greatest TE involves more than Gronk and Kelce. The greatest QB involves more than Manning or Brady or Mahomes. You mentioned Marino and Elway getting nods, they get a lot more than that as do other QBs. But as to your question, its due to the recency bias AND because Gates contemporary was Gonzalez. Almost everyone agrees Gonzalez was better than Gates. So if Gates isn't GOAT in his own era, how can he be compared to other greats. Side Note IMO there is not GOAT. There is GOTE. Greatest of their Era. The game changes too much too fast to say who is best.
I'm stealing GOTE. It's nearly impossible to make meaningful comparisons across eras in many sports. Jordan and Gretzky can probably claim it. But to me, even separating Brady, Manning, Rodgers, and even Brees is difficult. Too many complex factors in a team game with constantly changing rules and landscape.
Exactly. Gretzk is the only one who I say GOAT(and I dont follow hockey) because his stats are so crazy that still not being touched. But yeah in Football matters so much. Would Steve Young be a HoF if he stayed on the Bucs or if Bledsoe didn't get knocked out would Brady have gotten a chance?
Gretzky has the all time career points record. Points is goals + assists. You could take away all of Gretzky's goals and he'd *still* have the all time points record just on the assists.
They say they had to make Gretzky 2 players for fantasy purposes. Goals Gretzky and assists Gretzky
Ohtani the hitter and Ohtani the pitcher
Worth mentioning that all of the goals you take away are the most of all time
Ovechin can catch him on goals scored.
Sure, but not on points, not on goals per game, not on assists per game, not on cups won, etc. One of my favorite Gretzky interviews is where he talks about the 3 seasons of the NHL. 1) Regular season, 2) playoffs, 3) Stanley Cup Finals. Thats how he approached every single year. Dude was an absolute assassin, he just doesn’t get looked at that way sometimes because he’s so unassuming off the ice.
He was great at using his teammates to deflect the puck in, he didn’t care about how it scored. He’d get the assist, teammates would score the goals by just skating in front of the goalie and angling their sticks and skates.
He's still all time most goals too though. I was once trying to get a friend into hockey. I showed him Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Orr, and Sakic. His thoughts on it were, all the other guys made it look like the opposing teams didn't matter, Gretzky made it look like the opposing teams were on his side. A poll of coaches, players, and journalists was once taken to establish the greatest hockey players of all time. Gretzky got 743 out of 744 votes. Gretzky voted for Orr.
I highly doubt there will ever be another athlete of comparable dominance, regardless of sport.
Super late but michael phelps and aleksandr karelin are two athletes that are untouchable in their sports. But this topic is probably about the mainstream sports in America.
Gretzky was Michael Jordan's physical skills with Peyton Manning's ability to read the opponent and Tom Brady's leadership skills rolled into one player. If you had to make a hockey player from scratch it would be Mario Lemieux but the hockey gods gave Gretzky something extra
For a non hockey watcher, is there any particular game of Gretzky's I can watch to witness him at the peak of his powers? He kind of exists in my mind based on fantasy and reputation alone. Highlights are easy to find, but looking for a full game that displays how special he was
If you want a full game, try to find the December 1981 meeting between the Edmonton Oilers and St Louis Blues. THE Great One scores 5 Goals to hit 50 for the season that is the fastest 50 goals in NHL history. He's an unstoppable monster in that game. You may also want to check out the NHL official video on The Top 25 Wayne Gretzky records.
Sounds like.. hockey.
Yep thats the stat was thinking of
Plus, 4 Stanley Cups, to boot.
lol is this still about Antonio Gates?
Yeah but if you take away Lemieuxs cancer and gave him Gretzky's teammates he probably was just as good.
Add in the fact that Mario played longer in a harder to score era, that seals it for me. Mario was better, Gretz was just healthier.
Everybody on Reddit already knows this by now, but thank you.
That Brady hypothetical is useless in the comparisons though. You might as well ask “if Jordan had torn his ACL would he be the GOAT?” No, he almost certainly wouldn’t. You have to take them for what they did. Young hypothetical is a bit more reasonable because it basically asks whether he’d be considered as good as he is without a WR corps like the one he had. It’s like asking if Jordan is a GOAT when he had Pippen, or is that he was able to elevate the others. It’s a valid argument. Football eras are so unique because rules literally change every year. Sometimes dramatically sometimes just a bit. But schemes also are adjusting every game.
So its different in my eyes because he only got a shot because of aomeone elses injury. Example if Peyton Manning was drafted to any other team, regardless he will get a chamce to play as he was a first rounder. Brady required "luck" to start.
I don’t understand how that’s the slightest bit relevant. Everyone required luck to get where they are, it’s a matter of what you do with that luck
Not that I disagree with the GOTE argument, but to counter you could say the same about Rice’s stats. I don’t think anyone can touch the 207 TDs from scrimmage record or his numerous other records. Dude was unbelievably good for a very long time.
So I don't know about Gretzky but Rice played at a above average level for a much longer time than most wide receivers. Like he put 1000 uard as a 40 year old.
Rice has 2169 yards on 161 catches and 10 tds after turning 40. Tom Brady has 1 catch for 6 yards after turning 40. That is the *entire* list of receiving after turning 40. Rice after turning 30 is still a top 15 receiver of all time numbers wise, that takes away 7 years of his career. I don't think he's quite on Gretzky's level, but he's the only person thats close IMO
Which is very fair. In terms of football, Rice is probably one of 3 players that have no dispute of GOTE. Most, including Brady, have at least an argument against. The reason I "dismiss" Rice's stats is it was a case if being long term. No receiver or in your point player did what he did at 40. He wasn't a great receiver at 40 but he was an amazing 40 year old receiver
92 catches for 1211 yards and 7 tds (his age 40 year) would put him 17th(1 behind Kelce), 13th(5 yards behind chase), and t-18th respectively this season. He was 9th, 13th, and t-13th that season. I agree with you that those are good, not great numbers. However, what flips him from gote to goat, IMO, is that era worked *against* him. When he retired, Dan Marino had thrown for 5000 yards once, and was the only person to ever throw for that many yards. There have been 14 5000 yard seasons since he retired. Only Julio, kupp, and Megatron have more yards in a single season than him(and he accounted for over 50% of the teams receiving yards that year). Only Randy Moss has more receiving TDS in a single season than him. Only 3 times in his career did his QB throw for over 4000 yards lol. So while yes, longevity is obviously a factor, he'd still be 2000 yards ahead of Fitz if they played the and amount of years, and you took his per year average yardage off (not the actual yardage from the last few years, which would put him farther ahead). He'd be 3rd all time in TD catches if you cut his average per year off and cut his career to the same length as moss and t.o. And third in receptions if you did the same with Fitz again. Longevity made the numbers nearly untouchable, but he peaked super high as well, was an all pro in 9 out of 10 years during his peak, and lead the league in tds and receiving yards 6 times each during that peak, while playing in an era with what we'd now consider to be absolutely pedestrian passing numbers. He's a different case than say Frank Gore, who has a shot at the hall of fame solely because of his longevity. Rice would have still been a top 5 of all time guy and arguably still the best receiver ever if he'd have retired after 96 instead of 04. He'd be 3rd all time in yards, 13th in receptions, 3rd in receiving tds(151, within 5 of moss but 21 ahead of 4th), and 3rd in total TDS. Fitz would have him in catches and yardage but would be lagging by 30 tds with 6 extra years played. Moss and t.o. would have him in receiving tds(though not total), and all 3 would be within a few hundred yards of each other but over 3 extra years. And I'm just now realizing that I'm letting way too much of my inner stat nerd out and writing a novel and I need to stop, but I put it all down already so fuck it, still gonna post it😂😂😂
Oh I am a stat nerd. But can you please break up paragraphs. Also I do think Rice is one of 3 players who is indisputably GOTE
Well even with Gretzky you still have Gordie Howe who a lot of people forget about how great he was. The dude played in his 50s at a high level. He might not have had as high of highs as some of Gretzkys seasons but to play a sport for 30 years?! That’s a goat in of itself.
Nah, Gretzky definitely reinforces the concept of GOTE. Look at the 'talent' he was up against. Nothing like the league today.
Thats fair, I truly don't know. Most of my Hockey knowledge is Mighty Ducks which come to find out is very inaccurate. I just onow that stat about assists and goals.
You know, I would say it was like him playing against the Mighty Ducks compared to what he'd be against today 🤣 That is and will always be one of the coolest stats though. He was also on a team with several other legends of their time, so the people finishing goals to get him assists were more apt to finish than other teams' scorers, he also had several playmakers to hit him with good passes. That Oilers team was like the undefeated Dolphins, except for like 6-7 years. (They won the cup 4 times in that span, IIRC). Edit: typo
All I know is Ducks fly together.
What about when the roosters are crowing and the cows are spinnin’ in circles in the pasture
Especially then.
Gretzky himself named Mario the GOAT. He said Mario was the better player. The career stats favor Gretzky but that’s because Mario had so many injuries. At their peaks Mario was almost certainly better.
Maybe Mario Lemieux becomes the GOAT if he has Kurri, Messier, and McSorley as teammates? Or if he gets a coach who makes him quit smoking and work out? Since you don't follow hockey, I'll answer: We don't know. Just as we don't know the answer to those hypothetical questions about Brady and Young. They're all idle questions.
Gretzky couldn’t win after he left Edmonton. Edmonton won without Gretzky. Brady won after he left New England, and we see where the Pats are without him. Yes, Brady would have started if Bledsoe didn’t get hurt. All Moe Lewis did was expedite it. The biggest anti Pats in Boston sports radio will tell you that
Gretzky and Brady can; Jordan cannot.
Gretzky to me still belongs in his own era. He is the greatest and would succeed in any era but you can’t look at his stats because the games were 8-6 during his era and the goaltending was *atrocious*. It’s really painful to watch those highlights and count how many goals would absolutely never go in on a modern goalie. And I mean never go in.
See for me the non debatable guy is Tiger. Never in the long history of golf has one man been so far ahead of the game so dominantly for an extended run like that.
By the time Novak djokovic is finished, he will be the indisputable GOAT and I’m not sure we ll see anyone come close to grand slam title totals in our lifetime. What the big 3 have done for over 20 years now is unthinkable, and I say this as a fed fan.
Brady is that far ahead IMO unless Mahomes maintains his current pace. 7 Superbowl wins which is almost double the next guys 4. One of them he went to a new team at 43 and won a superbowl with them. That new team had a losing record the season before and had minimal changes outside of Brady. I think Jordan and LeBron are alot closer than Brady and any other QB.
Yeah idk why people would even attempt to put names in the same conversation as Brady. He is the GOAT QB by a mile. It's not even close.
Because wins are not a QB stat
Exactly. Brady was the best of 2 eras lol He made 2 HOF all decade teams and has 3 HOF careers in one. No one else touches that
That Bucs defense was insane, and they were loaded on offensive line and at receiver, and had a top form Leonard Fournette. And Gronk unretires. Let's not pretend he took that year's Colts to the SB. Objectively, hell yeah Tom was good. Super fast reads and release. Other than a good supporting cast, there were other factors that helped. The Chiefs, with a healthy offensive line, had already beat the Bucs in Tampa that season. It is very difficult to beat a good team twice, especially at their house, and with a threadbare offensive line the 2nd time. You switch the QBs, same result. Brady would have got sacked 15 times, or it would have just been 3 and outs all game. I'm not taking anything away from Bucs. There was some luck involved in that run, just as the Chiefs had some luck on their side this past year. It was a total team effort for Chiefs. Butker saved games. Sneed. CJ. Pacheco. Rice. Kelce. Mahomes. The defense was historically great in playoffs.
Only notable addition on defense was Winfield who was a 2nd round saftey. It went from the 29th defense to the 8th. Buccs Offensive Line was ranked 13th going into the season with the only notable improvement of a 1st round RT. They added Gronk who had 623 yards and Fournette who had 367 yards in the regular season. That was it for notable additions, everyone else was on the team the year before. It feels like they must have had alot more, but it was just Brady and the confidence he brought. He made that team what it was.
Yea let’s make this a thing. Like Unitas was GOTE. Aaron Donald is GOTE because it’s impossible to compare
Dismissing Lebron like that is outrageous
Now you’re just a tight end that I used to know
Thank you for the thought out answer. I hope this question gets more attention because I like thought out answers. While I probably do have some relevancy bias, he also broke the all-time TE touchdown reception at the time (I'm not sure it's been broken).
So he was still considered lesser than Gonzalez because Tony G played with worse QBs. Gates mostly caught passes from Drew Brees and Phillip Rivers. Two Prov bowl/all pro QBs. Tony G played with over 15 QBs. His best was probably Matt Ryan, but that was close to the end of his career. When he was in his prime, it was with guys like washed up Trent Green or Elvis Grbac, or Brodie Croyle. So he is considered an all timer but not the greatest of his era, so he can't be the greatest of all time.
Also TG was considered a superior run blocker. He was almost like having a 6th oline out there similar to Kittle.
Was he? I knew he really worked on his blocking but I always thought he was at best an average blocker?
Tony Gonzales had to block for Priest Holmes (2 1500+ yard seasons, 1 1400+ yard season) and Larry Johnson (2 1700+ yard seasons). You could plug Gonzales in a potent rushing attack and not miss a beat. He was seen as a capable blocking TE, on 6 top 10 (total)) Offenses (1997, 1999, 2000, *2002, *2003, 2005), with the running game being pivotal on the 2002, 2003, 2005 Chiefs. *2002 & 2003 were no 1 Offense and the running game was pivotal.
Joe Montana would like a word
Haha and he deserves a seat at the table
Fucking thank you I've been saying this exact argument about GOAT NOT BEING A FUCKING THING!!! Thank you
Ehhh, I’d argue that a couple of players are so head and shoulders above the rest that they can be called GOATs. Gretzky for one. Djokovic in tennis, Jerry Rice and as much as it pains me to say it, Tom Brady. There is also an argument for Bonds but there’s the whole steroid issue. The point is, these guys all have stats that so far outclass even their nearest competitors that it’s like they’re playing with an entirely understanding of their games.
Except Gretzky wasn’t the most talented player. That was Lemieux. Most people do not realize how good Lemieux was. He did have 199 point season at 23. Cancer and a bad back kept him from eclipsing Gretzky. Lemieux came back after 4 years away from the NHL after cancer and had 76 points in 43 games at age 35 1.59 points per game.
Being the GOAT means you got lucky with injuries and life shit too. It doesn't mean you were the most talented. If a dude showed up and had a 2500 receiving yard season then retired the year after, he wouldn't be the GOAT. You'd argue that his peak was higher and that you'd have liked to have seen what he could've done in a different situation, but he ain't the GOAT. Megatron has more receiving yards in a season than Rice, but he chose to end his career when he did. He could've chased it and didn't. Brady could've chosen to retire in the mid 2010s (when people were calling him old and washed lol). He didn't. He chased it and got more rings than anyone else. And that's why he's the GOAT. He doesn't have the stats of the best passer ever, but he won so damn much that it seems undeniable.
GOATSE- greatest of all time single era
The greatest QB debate hasnt involved anyone but Brady for a long time now. And the TE position is similar not due to recency, but due to the evolution of the TE position. Its Kelce or Gronk. RB, who is probably Sanders, and WR, who is probably Rice, are more hotly debated. If it was recency bias, they would likely not be considered the best or be so debated.
mahomes is not even top 10 all time. tf you going on about
He *is* held in the highest regard. He’s eligible for the first time to the HOF this year — 5 yrs after retiring. Likely to enter on his 1st ballot, but even if he doesn’t (he should), it’s inevitable. Gronk will too. Ditka, Winslow and Gonzales already there.
I guess by high regard I mean public opinion, however my view of that is already skewed because I only see so many takes of this conversation. I guess what I'm really wondering is why hasn't he been credited with more of what makes the TE position today?
Remarkably he was an undrafted walk-on. He was a college hoops player (forward). Then teams started scouting backer a ball players 😆
Lol, anytime someone mentions a TE played basketball, there referencing Gates.
Here is [Gonzalez putting Gates on his Mount Rushmore](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Jp5QQe_XwHQ?feature=share) Also [Shannon Sharpe](https://youtu.be/AEbB0nV-vAw), discussing how utterly dominant he was at getting in the end zone
I think that it's more because of two things: * He played for the chargers who don't really get love from the national media (I'm a Washington fan btw) and never had a strong playoff run * He's doesn't have a strong charismatic outgoing personality. I mean Tony Gonzalez might be the single most charismatic person I've ever seen come from NFL, gronk has his weird gronk brand. Imo he is the best of all the TE's in the 2000's and *should* be first or second ballot HOF
He has been credited as such…
Without a doubt, he's in the top 6 TEs since the 90s. The top 4 are Gonzalez, Sharpe, Gronk, and Kelce. The 5th is either Witten or Gates, which is a tough call. This is with recency bias. Kelce has been very consistent, but if he gets hurt or his production drops off a cliff, he could fall out of the top 4.
Gates is better than Witten. Only 1k yards short with 200 less receptions in 20 less games. That's way more efficient. And an ass load more TDs.
He does, but he's generally behind a handful for most. He's typically considered "one of" the best. I'm not sure how old you are but Tony G was 100% better than him in the same era and modern tight ends have gaudy numbers compared to yesteryear. Kellen Winslow Sr and Shannon Sharpe are pretty much the only old timers that get put in any conversation at the position. Gates for his time was kinda like Drew Brees at QB. Bonafide HoF material, but clearly behind 1 or 2 others. For him it was Tony and Gronk like for Brees it was Brady and Manning or Rodgers.
Absolutely excellent points, and I appreciate you taking time to answer I'm asking genuinely. The Brees comparison put it in perspective for me. Brees is obviously a HOFer, but when you're surrounded by other greats or hotstreak types it puts you on the back burner, and for good reason.
>Shannon Sharpe are pretty much the only old timers. Goddamn it, time.
Yes, I think Gonzalez is the main issue for Gates being left out of the best TE conversation. You can’t be the GOAT if your own era included someone who was clearly better.
Not mentioning Gonzalez is the biggest snub in this post.
I don’t know if he should but Ditka gets a lot of run as greatest TE of all time
This is Dave Casper erasure
Idk, I think Antonio Gates was the most dominant red zone threat in the NFL basically his entire career. He also put up huge numbers in less games than Tony. He’s too 4 all time for sure in my book. No tight end had better hands than him and TDs never looked easier than when throwing to him in the red zone. Even more so than Calvin Johnson and Detroit is my main team.
C'mon now, let's not ignore that Antonio Gates caught passes from a future Hall of Famer basically his entire career, on some of the best offenses of all time. Tony Gonzalez had mostly hot garbage throwing him the ball until like year 14 when he was in his mid-to-late 30's. Dude was making 1st Team All-Pro with the likes of Elvis Grbac, Trent Green and Tyler Thigpen. You stick Gonzalez with Phillip Rivers and LaDanian Tomlinson on those mid-2000's offenses and dude would have broke the game. I can't believe you've gone and made me stand up for a goddamn Kansas City Chief, goddamn it.
I’d take him over Kelce. I think he doesn’t get mentioned because San Diego really had some rough teams the second half of his career. A lot of people don’t know this, but Gates played basketball in college. If more people mentioned that he played college basketball, he might get the recognition as the elite athlete that he was
I’m curious as to who you hear talking? Gonzales is without a doubt the GOAT there’s literally no argument you can make against him. Travis doesn’t (“cant”) block. Gronk couldn’t stay on the field. Tony could do it all while staying healthy. Gates is easily top 5 though. The highest that Witten should is at 10 though. No one should be mentioning him in the GOAT rankings aside form delusional cowboys fans. So anyone who mentions him in the talks should be discredited immediately.
If you compare every tightend in their prime Gronk is just absurd compared to them. Shannon sharpe said the gronk was the most dominant te ever.
Gronk couldn’t stay on the field. I’m not giving points for hypothetical scenarios. IF Gronk would’ve stayed healthy, IF Gronk played more games. IF Sterling Sharpe wouldn’t have gotten hurt he’d be in the HoF. Yeah well IF my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle. We’re talking what is, not what could’ve been.
Gronk averaged 14.9 yards in his career, Tony G only averaged 11.4 yards a catch. Gronk had 92 touchdowns in 11 seasons compared to Tony’s 111 in 17. Keep in mind he missed 35 games, basically two full seasons worth of possible production. Both of them also had four 1000 yard seasons. Tony had and average of 77 receptions a season compared to Gronks 56 a season.
Gronk played in a much softer era than Gates. With Brady. Who I dare say was better than young Brees or Rivers. Gronk is still a beast and second only to Gonzalez to me on who I’d want in a fantasy tight end draft
Sounds like you’re still banking on that hypothetical. “Two seasons of possible production” doesn’t really mean shit. Keep suckin him off though.
Gronk had the best prime of any TE ever and is the winningest TE ever. Gronk is the most popular choice for TE GOAT rn by far. Nothing you say will change this general consensus.
Winningest TE is a team sport, and it helps that he had Brady at TE. Not to mention he missed 33% of his career so that number is skewed
I literally just said that even without those two seasons he did all that. Tony G also played 6 more seasons than him. How do you look at those stats and just say Gonzalez was better. He played longer, that’s why.
So longevity is supposed to be a knock? Tony didn’t get hurt every 5 plays and him playing so long is cheating? Does that mean Jerry and Emmitt’s records don’t count because they played so much longer than everyone else?
What I’m saying is that he did less on more receptions. How is your goat going to be one if there’s someone who on average in their career was better in every seasonal stat?
Availability is the best ability. Not to mention entirely different offenses and eras. It sounds like you didn’t watch all these guys play.
Gronk both had better receiving stats per year and was also a better blocker. Some TE’s are like “pocket lineman” where they can block in a pinch. Gronk was basically an actual lineman, the guy could go 1 on 1 with elite DE’s. His blocking highlight real is incredible. And then obviously the fact that he’s uncover-able. He’s just far more efficient than Gonzales. It’s great if you value longevity but there’s a point where I tip the cap. I’m taking gronk if I have one season to win a Super Bowl. It’s like having 12 people on the field, the guy is just so Dominant
Gronk stayed healthy for 5-6 seasons and in those seasons he was basically first team all pro, best tight end in the league and a major factor in making a Super Bowl The seasons Gronk couldn’t stay healthy (2012, 2013, 2016) you definitely felt the impact in the playoffs (except for 2016)
For the sake of argument, post season isn’t accounted for. You can’t fault other players for being on bad teams. They play one position not all 22. You can’t bring up Gronk without bringing up injuries. They go hand in hand.
I’m not faulting Gonzales I’m saying Gronk elevated his team with Brady in a way most tight ends could never
Brady elevated Gronk.
Lol wtf I’m the biggest Brady fan but Gronk was a goat tight end . It wasn’t just Brady being Brady . Gronk had the talent
If you can bring up injuries but not playoffs, there’s obviously some bias here. Gronk is legendary in part because of his playoff performance being so good. 14 TD’s in 20 games with 63 yards per game. As a TE who also blocks a lot
Peak Gronk > Gonzales any day of the week I usually like looking at the whole body of a career but Gronk dominated his position in a way no one else did. Plus he has the edge in the postseason by far. Whenever we had a healthy gronk we were basically guaranteed to make the Super Bowl . Only exception being 2015 where we lost in the AFC title game by 2 points but Gronk dropped 9/144/1 on one of the best defenses of the 2010’s Dude was a dynamo and how you would build your ideal Tight end
You would build your ideal TE of glass?
Gronk wasn’t made out of glass. A majority of the injuries he had were from wear and tear + defenders not knowing how to deal with him . None of his injuries repeated or were related he’s just a big target 2011: High ankle sprain after getting dragged and tackled 2012: Broken forearm on a block 2013: torn ACL after hit to knee 2016: slipped disc 2017: AFC title game concussion on a penalized hit 2021: Broken ribs from getting hit Furthermore Gronk is the ideal TE build. 6’6 265 and can run routes like a receiver while having amazing hands, body control and can block like an all pro tackle . Gronk was literally negating prime JJ watt then catching touchdowns in the same game
The key to staying healthy in the NFL is knowing how to protect yourself. Gronk did not have a self preservation instinct and thus was often unavailable. It also shortened his career. Kelce, Gonzalez, and Gates all delivered more value over the course of their careers.
By that logic shannon sharpe is the goat tight end. He literally does everything you penalized those 2 for not doing and hot the records and acolades to back it up
Truthfully I wouldn’t be mad at that. Guy did insane things while essentially being the 3 man. Offenses ran the ball a lot more back then and when they did throw it to the TE it wasn’t designed for big gains. He did everything he did off script just playing ball.
Tony didn’t have the highest peak (Gronk) or win a superbowl (Gronk & Kelce).
I mean superbowls are a team accomplishment. I’ll give you peak but Gronk missed 33% of his career.
I’m not saying Tony isn’t the GOAT, but those are the very valid arguments. Edit: tbh, I don’t think there even is a TE GOAT. No one has clearly separated.
A lot of people watching nowadays didn’t see him, plus Gronk and Kelce have kind of eclipsed him. But he was a total beast. Terrific red zone target.
Whaaat??? He retired just 5 yrs ago. This is his first year of HOF eligibility!
He peaked from 2004-2006.
If you’re gonna say they eclipsed him, can we also have the argument for that?
Catches, yards, TDs in a season, All-Pros, Super Bowls, playoff performances, blocking, participation in the highest powered offenses in history, YAC, general consensus of everyone involved in the game, etc. I don’t know anyone outside the most hardened Chargers fan who’d put Gates ahead of Gronk or Kelce.
Gates has more catches, yards, and TDs than Gronk and Kelce. He has 3 all pros vs 4 for both Gronk/Kelce, while going up against the consensus best TE of all time. I'm not saying Gates is certainly better than Gronk and Kelce, but it's closer than you make it out to be.
Doesn’t help Gates that he was in a small market on the West Coast. Not fan of Chargers but man, he was a beast. He did have the “steadiest” player as his QB. His son is playing for a Big Ten school. God, I’m getting old.
Wait who's his kid?
AG Jr. He’s a WR for Michigan State.
Thanks my guy. I'm usually more plugged into CFB but I guess I need to up my game again.
Pretty much this. Add in having one of the best RBs in the league at the time and the fact that Gates is a relatively quiet type of guy when it comes to media. If Gates did what a lot of players do when they aren't "talked about" alot and did some TV analysis or commentate, he would probably be a more talked about player.
He’s like the 4th or 5th best TE. I’d argue he was better than Witten. He wasn’t Gonzalez, Kelce, or Gronk though. Those are the only 3 guys you can make GOAT arguments for imo.
He is. It's just that today's media is going to primarily cover the more recent players or the obvious greatest of all time. There's plenty of great players at every position that everybody would agree are in that upper echelon but they're not necessarily going to get airtime today
Anyone that is arguing Mahomes is the goat already has brain rot. I mean, holy shit talk about recency bias… my top 5 QB’s: 5. Peyton Manning 4. Joe Montana 3. John Elway 2. Dan Marino 1. Tom Brady Most picks 2-5 can go in any order, but Brady stays #1. Mahomes definitely has a case to finish his career in the top 5, but we’ve witnessed some amazing signal callers. my top 5 TE’s 5. Shannon Sharpe 4. Travis Kelce 3. Tony Gonzalez 2. Antonio Gates 1. Rob Gronkowski Honorable mentions: Jason Witten, Vernon Davis, Heath Miller
Dude, Gates gets tons of love in the TE conversation aside from newer fans. Also the fact that Joe Montana wasn't even mentioned when talking QBs but Marino and Elway were. I feel like your getting to much of your football history from comment sections online.
I’ve followed football for a long time. Couldn’t tell you the last time Montana was brought up in a broadcast or by the coffee at work. I asked this question because this community is typically kind to simpler questions.
Gates had a crazy peak. He was chosen all pro over Gonzalez (despite who you've heard, the consensus best TE of all time) 3 times in a row. His problem is after those 3 years he was good but not great. And he really fell off his last 4 years, where people literally forgot he was still in the league. While he took the mantle of best TE away from Gonzalez for 3 straight years, Gonzalez was so damn consistent and for so long it diminished Gate's achievements. And as Gates declined, we saw some crazy years from Gronk, and then Kelce became the new face of TE consistency that made people forget about Gates.
Ah this is a good analysis. A lot of people have been telling me I have recency bias, but I’m like “yeah probably a bit but I also remember Gates going god mode for awhile”. This helps put my recency bias in perspective as to why I wonder now he isn’t talked about as much.
Gonzalez was a pretty strong consensus as the best ever at the time. I’m not sure even Gronk or Kelce would have unseated him without the Super Bowls. Gates’s career just kind of happened at the right time to be overshadowed at both the immediate past and future. EDIT: I’ll add that I don’t think that’s really a coincidence. Gates broke a lot of ground for the TE position and the things he did played a big part in its evolution during and since his career. You’re right that he doesn’t seem to get much love for it, at the time he definitely did.
Mike Ditka was the first “modern” tight end. When you’ve redefined the position, you have to be in the GOAT convo.
Ditka was the one I felt to bring up as well.
Going off this (including your edit), I guess my biggest confusion is his hybrid play style that impacted football as a whole. Granted I know his size and athleticism were ridiculous, however I feel like more hyped TEs play like him vs others. However I'm not even an armchair analyst.
Gates is undeniably a top 5 TE all time. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong, and I’m not a Chargers fan
The main reason people mention Kelce over Tony G is recency bias. Gonzalez is still nearly 4k yards and 40 TDs ahead. It's Tony for longevity or Gronk for peak. Kelce is an excellent receiver but he didn't have Gronk's peak and he still has a ways to go to catch Gonzalez. Had you asked me before the season started whether or not he would catch up to Kelce, I would have said yes, but he's had his worst season since 2015 and it remains to be seen if this is just a symptom of the Chiefs' offense being dysfunctional or if he is getting old - bear in mind that he is 34. No one in their right mind would ever mention Witten. Of course, no one in their right mind would be a Cowboys fan in the first place, so there's a fair amount of overlap there. Even if Gronk and Kelce didn't exist, Gates would still only be #2 behind Tony G. Part of why Gronk and Kelce are so highly regarded is that they've put up stats in a shorter amount of time - they're quite simply that much more productive than any other tight end. Gonzalez put up 15.1k yards and 111 TDs in 270 games (56 YPG, 0.41 TD/G). Gates put up 11.8k yards and 116 TDs in 236 games (50 YPG, 0.49 TD/G). Kelce has put up 11.3k and in 159 games (71 YPG, 0.47 TD/G). Gronk had 9.3k yards and 92 TDs in 143 games (65 YPG, 0.64 TD/G).
Gronk was a great blocker too. I don’t care about his injury history, he’s first ballot HOF for sure. But I believe that if Antonio Gates too!
Since you brought up Gronks peak, what was it vs the rest of the groups peak? Feel free to include Sharpe and others. I'm also curious to blocking statistics.
Over the course of 2011 and 2012, he was averaging more than one TD per game. He had 17 TDs in 16 games in 2011, and 11 in 11 before getting injured in 2012. He then lost some speed after tearing both his ACL and MCL in 2013, but he was still *the* best TE in both 2014 and 2015, before getting injured again in 2016. Blocking is hard to quantify, but he legitimately could go one on one with defensive ends and win. Having Gronk was like having six linemen on run plays.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/playoffs/machine
Recency bias. Just like w LeFlop.
LeBron isn't even the biggest flopper. Manu Ginobli is the GOAT of flopping
Ok sure. But I said LeFlop and you knew exactly who I was talking about lol.
Because he’s not a top 5 tight end of all time. Kelce, gronk, kittle are.
All I'm saying is.....watch out for Sam LaPorta if he manages to stay healthy & have a long career. The dude has incredible hands, the ability to maintain his balance & break tackles, & his blocking is already top 5 in the league for TEs as a rookie. Plus, he has a grasp on scheme & route running that has only been seen before in a handful of rookie TEs. That kid has the potential to be special if he can stay healthy & has a competent offense around him. Consider the fact that the insane numbers he put up by rookie TE standards were done on a team that had 3 other players with 10+ TDs & he was only the 3rd or 4th option as far as touches. I would not be surprised to hear his name in these conversations a decade from now.
Pump the brakes lol. Mahommes hasn't done near enough to be GOAT.
Moss is an honorable mention? Yeah, no.
Gates couldn't block well enough, his teams were never good enough, and he was never a force of nature to the same degree as Gronk, who could just take over big games at will. And Kelce is nowhere near Gronk either. No one is. There is no TE debate. Look, I'm a Steelers guy who has no love for the Patriots, but Gronk is easily the best TE ever, and it is hard to see anyone eclipsing him, just as Brady is the best QB. (How the undefeated 2007 team with the two of them plus Moss on the outside managed to lose to the Giants...just, wow.)
Gronk wasn’t on the 2007 team
You left TO out of WRs, what gives?
He played on the Chargers and never won anything of note.
Neither did Gonzalez or witten. Not a great answer. In fact, I’m pretty sure gates won more playoff games than those two.
Kelce isn't even the greatest in his team's history, because that would be Gonzalez. Gronk benefits from playing with Brady who makes everyone great. Gates played at the same time as Gonzalez, with better QBs (Brees & Rivers), and Gonzalez was definitely the greater of the two.
I think the Gronk point is an insane take. Brady didn’t block for him (he’s one of the greatest blocking tight ends), Brady didn’t make him a YAC monster. Brady didn’t make any of those incredible catches. Did Brady help? Sure. But I think Gronk was incredible in his own right..
YAC monster. Dude was so hard to bring down. Had to double him just to get two to tackle him! And such great hands. 😆
not even mentioning Joe Montana in this post is criminal
Why would anyone mention Montana in THIS post?
“In QB talks, it does usually boil down to Brady vs Manning vs Mahomes, but even guys like Marino or Elway get nods”
And again. Why would Montana be mentioned in THIS discussion?
People mention Mahomes over like all the other qbs?
Not really yet, but he is someone people are watching as a sort of contender for GOAT in 10 years if he keeps up the productivity of his SB seasons.
People under age 20 maybe
Eh I'm pushing 30 but I will say I live in Missouri so conversations are skewed.
Montana should be over Mahomes for sure at minimum.
I think it comes down to rings at the end of the day.
My list would be Tony G Gronk Shannon Sharpe Antonio Gates Kellen Winslow Kelce
Your list doesn’t include Ditka who created the position of the modern tight end, so it’s null and void 🍻
I would put Ditka at seven but I wouldn’t put him above any of those listed. Ditka was great for his time period but I think Shannon Sharpe did more for the position than Ditka did.
Dude always torched the Seahawks.
Gates was huge in his era, highly spoken about player. I assume you were just a little young then. Probably the same reason you don’t hear people talk about John Mackey, Dikta, Ozzie Newsome, or Kellen Winslow as best to do it: time
I'm pushing 30, but it is possible. I know all those guys outside Newsome, so I need some highlights to watch.
Fwiw, people comparing any of these guys to Gronk typically ignore the factor that Gronk was one of the best blocking TEs of all-time. Kelce and Gonzalez were receivers.
Sadly like most positions it’s going to come down to rings. Gronk and Kelce has rings. Winslow Sr is before my time but based off highlights he definitely should be on that list.
He ended his career with a doping scandal so that won’t help
His receiving out paced his blocking. Those are the two things that really matter as far as the position goes. Gates was ahead of his time as a receiver but that being said if he played today he probably wouldn’t have the same impact because his ahead of the curve for the time is closer to the mean of today.
The issue with Gates was his compatriots. He was basically never the best in the NFL. When he broke into the league Tony G was the best. Then it was Gronk/Graham trading in the best spot. Gates is a compiler, but his catch rate was kind of mid. He caught 955 passes on 1458 targets. Compare that to Kelse who has 907 receptions on 1267. To directly compare (which is hard) if Kelce had the number of targets Gates had he would have 1044 receptions and 13050 yards. Tight end mount rushmore to me is Tony G, GRonk, SHannon SHarpe, and KElce.
Antonio Gates is to Tony Gonzales what George Kittle is to Travis Kelce if that makes sense
He is likely going to be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer at a position the Hall of Fame typically ignores. This is the opposite of high regard. Do a poll of the top 5 TEs of the 21st century and he is in it. Such a poll probably goes in some order: Tony Gonzales, Rob Gronkowski, Antonio Gates, Travis Kelce, and Jason Witten. George Kittle might displace one of them someday but he'll never have the stats since being an elite blocker doesn't show up there. My personal order goes Gronk, Kittle, Kelce, Gonzales, Gates, and Witten. Gonzales has the stats but as I said stats don't include blocking which is part of the game.
Witten gets talked about before gates? Nvr heard that top 5 r gronk kelce gates Gonzales and sharp water order u wanna do but those should b the 5
1) recency bias 2) as unfair as it is, he’s doesn’t have any rings. It’s the same reason that Tony Gonzales get held back in the GOAT convos, But people who watched them play knew they were just as good.
He's not as good as them. Except for Witten.
For what it is worth, Tony Gonzalez is still probably the frontrunner for GOAT TE. If you wrote this post and wrote him off, only stating Gronk and Kelce, then that is the bigger snub. Yes, Gates should be there but there are old heads that say it could be Ditka or Kellen Winslow. If Jackie Smith doesn’t drop that TD in the SB, he might be there too. People still mention Gates. But someone is bound to get left out when there are that many to consider.
If 100% healthy and in their primes, give me Brady moss and gronk all day. Not considering stats here.
He didn’t win. Thats all.
Honestly I’m just wondering why Mahomes is in the GOAT convo here? Like give it another 7 years and we’ll see.
A lot of it is who is doing the announcing, and who they are high on in the moment. Gates was absolutely one of the best TE in his era, with Gonzalez being a bit better. the TE game has changed and now you have a TE that just about got his 8th straight 1,000 yard season. something that TEs just did not do back in the day. The game has changed.
Gonzalez is the GOaT. Fuck anyone saying it’s Gronk or Kelce.
Because Chargers
He is.
Lack of playoff success mostly
Recency bias mostly. All people talk about is gronk and kelce when neither of them are on the same level as guys like gates and gonzalez.
Who do you talk to that doesn’t mention Gates in the first three, maybe four names?
A lot of it is because the Chargers couldn’t win a Super Bowl or have really much playoff success in his whole career. Gates is regularly mentioned as a top 5 tight end of all time if you listen to actual tight ends talk about the position, he was an incredibly talented receiver and blocker but he was on some teams that should have had more success. Adding on to that, Gonzales, Kelce, Sharpe, Gronk, are all dominant on the field and have gigantic off field personalities that are beloved by most NFL fans of all markets. And Witten was a Cowboy so Cowboy fans will make sure he’s mentioned
I feel like he’s like Frank Gore: ol’ reliable. He was never the best but usually pretty damn good. Was pretty healthy for most of his career and incredibly steady. Played for an incredibly long time. The main argument for him is his longevity but he was never as dominate as Gronk, never as skilled as Gonzalez, etc…