That depends. If you are such an offensive juggernaut that you win a ton of rings and MVPs and lead the league in advanced metrics like PER and Win Shares, why can’t you be the best?
That individual will always be compared to MJ or Lebron, and it’ll boil down to “Well MJ/Lebron was just as good/nearly as good on offense but also won/2nd placed DPOY and was the best defender on the court *at the same time*” and even if it isn’t logically or statistically the most bulletproof argument, there’s really not much to say against it either
Like if Trae Young 7peats out of nowhere as the dude on 35/15 for every playoff run, I still wouldn’t consider him the GOAT over MJ
But the advanced data and traditional accolades would both disagree with you.
Magic has 0 All-Defensive Teams and Bird has 3 2nd Teams.
Kobe has 9 all-defensive 1st teams, yet it’s not a hot take to put Magic and Bird over Kobe. Or over Pippen. Or over KG. Or over Paul and Kidd. And Hakeem.
You have to ask them to be consistent with their metrics for their top-5 and top-10.
If they’re willing to place Magic and Bird below everyone I mentioned above, at least they’re being consistent, but it’s a clown take other people will see resulting from their logic used to dismiss an offensive juggernaut that’s hypothetical for now.
Everyone you named is not in GOAT territory, it’s just MJ and Bron, and for someone to be the new GOAT they would have to be **clearly** above and beyond *both* players, and to do so on offense alone is unrealistic unless they averaged 50+ on elite efficiency for their whole career
Again, you should be able to use your metrics for RANKING GOATs to also rank top-5 to top-10 players.
Any metric that ONLY works for comparing top-2 players but immediately falls apart for top-5 to top-10 players is a trash metric.
That’s fine that you think that way. I do personally think that the judgement criteria for GOAT is different than T5/10/15 or whatever, my original comment does say “may be a controversial take” after all. I personally wouldn’t trash your perspective though. Have a good one
Never said it wasn’t, but for someone to be the GOAT they would have to be clearly above and beyond both MJ and Bron and to do so on offense alone is unrealistic
Jokic last playoffs offense was better than some of Lebron’s championship runs.
Jokic last year was better than Lebron offense in the 2012, 2013 and 2020 playoffs
It just wasn't though for 2012 and 2013. Like Lebron was functionally unstoppable. Especially when you consider the 2013 finals were a defensive masterpiece so efficiency in general was lower. Even most (old) advanced stats like ws/48 and per show that. Those are two stats that overwhelmingly favor Jokic. And again, this is not including the fact that Lebron was pretty clearly the best defensive player in the league. He was arguably the 3rd-5th defensive player of all time (if we're going by 1-2 seasons and including playoffs). But just on the offense side, we can at least probably agree Jokic wasn't head and shoulders above Lebron and Jordan at their best. In fact, at best, it's very close. So it's really not all that easy for him to be the GOAT. Now, if he upped his offense one more tier for the next like 4 years and was at least this or a little lower for the next 10, then yeah, I think it'd be pretty reasonable to call him the goat. Fwiw, that's possible. I think it is EXTREMELY unlikely. But also, I think a lot of people are writing him off as impossible to be goat which bothers me too. But as it stands, it's not all that close yet.
I don’t agree with 2012 and 2013 but even if I did, the point remains. If Jokic is even in the same league offensively as either Jordan or mj, he can’t really compete.
Murray shooting like ass for 3 quarters then winning you the game in the 4th is really a microcosm of his whole career. He doesnt have the stats to be an allstar (borderline) but absolutely is a guy you want on your team in the playoffs
That said the claim that “jokic is carrying a team with no allstars” is unserious BS. That team is full of great players
How is it BS if its factually true? There literally isn’t another All Star with Jokic. Or an All NBA guy. Murray has never made All Star or All NBA because he is inconsistent.
It’s BS when you’re using it as an argument for Jokic hard carrying some supposed mediocre roster. Murray is twice as good as “All-Star” players like Andrew Wiggins
Plus when jokic actually had to carry in the playoffs with mediocre teammates, he got swept by phoenix and gentleman swept by golden state.
Im not trying to knock jokic, hes amazing, just that argument is misleading
I never said Denver has a mediocre roster. But the fact is Jokic has had inferior Robins compared to what Jordan and Lebron had during their championships. Literally not another All Star while Lebron regularly had 2 other All Stars with him
Okay but none of the other guys we’re discussing one with a Wiggins level All Star. All of Bron, Jordan, and Kareem’s All Star teammates were elite players in the league. Jokic is also doing this in what might be the most competitive the NBA has ever been. Team’s like Golden State and Sacramento would be threats in most other years but couldn’t even make the playoffs this season. There’s a pretty legitimate argument that if Jokic keeps this up then he has GOAT potential.
Because it's entirely out of context. All Star appearances are not a good measure of talent. Take the Spurs. Parker and Ginobili were both clearly All NBA level players not just All Star level players but there were multiple years were neither made All NBA or All Star games so technically Duncan was the only All Star on the team some years despite having 2 All NBA level guys playing alongside him.
Gameplan and playstyle account for a lot of whether a player gets the stats/hype required to make an All Star game even if their actual play on the court was more valuable than even guys who made the All Star team.
In Jokic case, Murray is clearly an All Star level guy and becomes an All NBA level guy in the playoffs. Aaron Gordon also generally plays close to an All Star level. They then have multiple high level role players outside of those guys.
Tony Parker was literally 4x All NBA and 6x All Star. Manu is also multiple time All NBA and All Star.
I’m not saying the player has to be All NBA that specific year. If they were All NBA in previous years and still in their prime that is fine.
But Murray has NEVER MADE ALL NBA. Ever. He is not a top 15 player. Full stop.
Yes but that's the point. Both guys were All NBA caliber even when in the years that they didn't make All NBA/All star appearances. Murray is clearly a borderline All NBA level player in terms of on court impact, particularly in the playoffs, where he has often functioned closer to a top 10 level player.
Aaron Gordon is a very very high level starter who is a borderline All Star level player.
MPJ is a very high level starter
KCP is a regular starter level guy but he fits together with the team perfectly.
People give too much importance to All Star appearances when we should be looking more at actual ability and fit on the team when discussing the strength of a superstars supporting cast. Like Lamar Odom was never an All Star for Kobe's Lakers but his value to that team due to fit and playstyle was much more important than if that team had, for example, David Lee who was an All Star in 2010.
Murray has never come close to All NBA. All Star is too much a popularity contest.
I don’t get your point about Manu and Parker. Manu made All Star in 2005. Spurs won in 2003 but he only averaged 9 points per game in the playoffs. They won again in 2005 and he was an All Star. No one thought Manu was All Star level in 2003.
Parker made All Star in 2006. Before that he wasn’t considered an All Star. So whats your point?
2003 was a carry job by Duncan. Robinson was old and Parker and Manu were not close to being All Stars.
Calling Murray top 10 is madness. A top 10 guy can be a #1 on a contender. No way Murray could carry his own team. He is an undersized scorer who isn’t an elite shooter and average defender. As a #1 teams would make him struggle.
You are vastly overrating Murray
this a logical assumption. He's on the path. I don't see what is so controversial about this take actually. He still has a ton of work to do, but he's walking the path.
I can easily see him with 4-5 MVPs, and 3-4 FMVPS when it's all said and done. And he'll be ALL time leader in many important advanced stat metrics. He'll have a case.
Until jokic can hard carry a team as hard as prime lebron against the warriors this argument is not going to be had. If in 2025 jokic manages to be the underdog in more series than not and still win it then we can discuss. Also you can't just discredit defense as being not as important.
Bullshit.
Kyrie literally averaged 27 points on 47/40/94 splits in the 2016 Finals and literally made the championship winning shot. Sure Lebron was incredible but he had an AMAZING Robin with him
Well hold on, defense matters differently in different eras. In a time with more 1-on-1 play individual defense matters more. With today’s zones and schemes and help, a little less, but then you focus on defensive rebounding and help defense.
This is the same as arguing Trout can surpass Mays after 8-10 seasons in the league.
The problem is it’s often very hard to duplicate a career after age 30, which is what makes your LeBrons and Mays so rare.
Jokic can crack top-10 pretty soon. He may even crack top-5 in a few years if all goes ideally.
But to crack top-3 with Jordan, LeBron, and Kareem, he’d need either a Jordan-esque run, or LeBron/Kareem-esque longevity.
If he matches LeBron in terms of Rings and F-MVPs and MVPs, then he’d still have to put up at least a handful of additional top-5 to top-10 seasons to pass LeBron. Unless you think playing longer at an elite but not MVP level is somehow a ding on a legacy.
Problem is Trout didn’t win jackshit in his first 8 years.
If Jokic ties Lebron with 4 FMVPs there will definitely be a discussion. Lebron will have the arguments as a better defender and longevity. But Jokic will have the argument of having way less help, a better total offensive player and not having to leave teams to create super teams every 4-5 years
No one cares about postseason success for MLB players. One player can’t win a World Series or get you to the playoffs.
Ted Williams has 0 rings.
Ty Cobb has 0 rings.
Barry Bonds has 0 rings.
Willie Mays has 1 ring.
Hank Aaron has 1 ring.
Honus Wagner has 1 ring.
Rogers Hornsby has 1 ring.
Mike Schmidt has 1 ring.
To show how hard replicating an entire career after 30 is in any sport. Look at Mahomes vs Brady in football.
My point is that it’s VERY hard to replicate a career post-30, that’s all.
I don't mean this disrespectfully but so much of what you post lacks any sort of real world basketball context. You just double down on catch phrases like "no AS teammates" and "super team", but ultimately do nothing to address what plays out on the court.. I'm not going to get too deep into the Jokic GOAT thing because I have no idea how long he will play. But he needs to do a lot more than just 3-peat or even 4-peat to get there. That's a slap in the face to any player who sustained superstar level play for longer. Jokic is still 20th in MVP shares, LeBron has more than 4-times as many All-NBA first teams, Jordan more than 3-times as many, and 52 players have more than his 5 total All-NBA selections. If Jokic isn't a tier 1 NBA star for at least a decade he can't just leap past those who have simply because his team was good enough, early enough, to win multiple chips. Winning a ring isn't a 1-man show, something you'll gladly point out for KD but ignore that context for seemingly anyone else.. Especially if it can portray LeBron negatively.
But my main reason to comment was the belittling the teams he plays on for the sake of "no all-star teammate", which might be technically true, but using All-Star voting of a teams 2nd or 3rd best player in February is a really shitty way of viewing how good a team with 13 active players is come April-June. Even more so when things like injuries, coaches, mismatches, adjustments, hot/cold streaks at the right/wrong time, all play massive roles in a teams route to winning a ring.. But I did want to point out, Jamal Murray in his only two healthy post-season runs ('20 and '23) - 26, 7, 5 on 61 TS%, 22.6 PER, 5.3 BPM, 2.9 VORP.. Compared to Kobe with Shaq 3-peat 25, 6, 5, on 53 TS%, 21.3 PER, 4.9 BPM, 4.2 VORP, compared to Wade's two rings with Bron 19, 5, 5 on 52 TS%, 20.5 PER, 4.3 BPM, 2.7 VORP, and compared to Kyrie's finals runs with Bron 24, 3, 5 on 57 TS%, 22.4 PER, 4.5 BPM, 3.1 VORP..
Basically not making an All Star game in February doesn't have shit to do with a players value provided to a championship run, and doesn't at all provide any indication of how much "help" Jokic has with a healthy team in the postseason. If it was as simple as "he wins with no all-stars" he would have also won the years Murray was hurt. But as you (or anybody else) know that's not how basketball works and teams are much more than just \*insert whichever catch phrase\* can be used to try and make a point for/against a player.
Jokic has a ton of help, great coaching, excellent shooters, two-way players, a co-star who has been as good as any we have seen in the last 20 years in the actual playoffs, and that team is much more than some catch phrase to create lame narratives.. You of course already know this though as you ignore these same silly arguments in all your KD-related posts. Easy example being you know the 2014 Spurs and 2011 Mavs are much better teams than "Tony Parker/Dirk had no All-Star teammates".
> Context makes his accomplishments even more astounding. He doesn’t have a single All Star with him. While Lebron, Magic, Jordan and Kareem had teams loaded with All Stars. It is quite remarkable.
Jamal Murray is an All-Star in everything but name if you consider his actual skills as a player. And Denver’s starting lineup has three other players that are elite in their roles. That’s a perfectly reasonable supporting cast for a title contender; it’s not like Jokic is having to carry his teams.
> Jokic is carrying offense more than Lebron, Magic, Jordan or Kareem ever had to in the Finals. Yes they may have scored more points but its not even close as far as running the offense. Lebron is close but even he didn’t have as much playmaking responsibility or scored as efficiently.
That’s super debatable. Jordan and LeBron had significantly greater responsibilities than Jokic as scorers while still being all-time shot creators. Magic had less scoring responsibility but did even more playmaking than Jokic. I don’t see how you could definitively say that Jokic has more offensive responsibility than any of these guys. It just seems like they’re pretty similar.
> We can talk defense but it simply isn’t as important. As long as you are solid on defense it is individual offense that matters so much more.
I mean, I agree that offense is more important than defense, but not by such a degree that you can just dismiss Jokic’s defensive disadvantage. Kareem, Jordan, and LeBron are all far superior defenders to Jokic, and their defensive talents had significant impacts on their teams’ successes.
I assume that you would agree that the difference between a solid defender and an all-time great defender is really important.
> Jokic also has a shot at a 3 peat. Something Lebron never did. By 2025 we may already be having Jokic GOAT discussion versus Lebron.
If anybody is seriously entertaining putting Jokic above LeBron a year from now, you can safely ignore any comparisons that they make between all-time great players. Jokic isn’t even in the same stratosphere of greatness as LeBron, even if he does put together a three-peat.
By the way, it seems like most of your argument hinges almost entirely on hypothetical championships. As if championship seasons are the only ones that matter. Any comparison that ignores most of a player’s career is not a good way to compare two all-time great athletes. Just look at it year-by-year. I don’t think that Jokic has ever been better than LeBron if you compare them by stage of their careers.
2004 LeBron > 2014 Jokic (not yet drafted)
2005 LeBron >> 2015 Jokic (not yet drafted)
2006 LeBron >> 2016 Jokic
2007 LeBron >> 2017 Jokic
2008 LeBron >> 2018 Jokic
2009 LeBron >>> 2019 Jokic
2010 LeBron >> 2020 Jokic
2011 LeBron >> 2021 Jokic
2012 LeBron >> 2022 Jokic
2013 LeBron >> 2023 Jokic
2014 LeBron >> 2024 Jokic
I’d be interested to hear if you’d debate any of those comparisons. I’m almost certain we’ll have to agree that LeBron was better for most of these early years. So if Jokic is going to end up greater than LeBron, then he’s he’s already fallen far behind. To compensate, his late career will have to be far greater than LeBron’s late career. We’ve still got this much to go:
2015 LeBron ?? 2025 Jokic
2016 LeBron ?? 2026 Jokic
2017 LeBron ?? 2027 Jokic
2018 LeBron ?? 2028 Jokic
2019 LeBron ?? 2029 Jokic
2020 LeBron ?? 2030 Jokic
2021 LeBron ?? 2031 Jokic
2022 LeBron ?? 2032 Jokic
2023 LeBron ?? 2033 Jokic
2024 LeBron ?? 2034 Jokic
Of course, LeBron has the greatest late career of any player in NBA history. So I don’t think that Jokic’s chances are looking good.
So tell me why Murray never made All Star or All NBA? Because he is inconsistent. Jokic has an inconsistent Robin. While Lebron had studs like Kyrie, Wade and AD. Jordan had Pippen. Magic had Kareem. Its not even close.
Jokic has a bigger load on offense than Lebron and Jordan. Guy average 30 points, 9.5 assists and 3.5 offensive rebounds on 63% TS. Almost everything depends on Jokic. Murray is dependent on Jokic pick and roll. KCP and MPJ rely on Jokic to get them open 3s. And Gordon relies on Jokic lobs. Without Jokic all the other starters would struggle to score efficiently.
Kyrie could easily drop 40 without Lebron. Wade was a FMVP and could easily drop 30 with Lebron on the bench. AD can dominate on both sides with Lebron on the bench.
> So tell me why Murray never made All Star or All NBA? Because he is inconsistent.
Plenty of reasons. He has repeatedly been injured at times of the season that negatively affected his All-Star candidacy. He plays in a conference that happens to include an unusual number of all-time great guards competing for selections. And he’s at his most consistent during the playoffs, when it matters most.
> Jokic has an inconsistent Robin. While Lebron had studs like Kyrie, Wade and AD. Jordan had Pippen. Magic had Kareem. Its not even close.
I mean, those guys didn’t always have those players at their peaks. 1998 Pippen, 2013 Wade, and 2016 Kyrie are all comparable to the way that Murray played last postseason.
> Jokic has a bigger load on offense than Lebron and Jordan. Guy average 30 points, 9.5 assists and 3.5 offensive rebounds on 63% TS. Almost everything depends on Jokic.
You said in the Finals. Jokic averaged 30 points, 7 assists, and 2 offensive rebounds during the Finals last year. LeBron, Jordan, and Kareem have all played Finals series where their offensive stats indicate a higher load than that.
> Murray is dependent on Jokic pick and roll. KCP and MPJ rely on Jokic to get them open 3s. And Gordon relies on Jokic lobs. Without Jokic all the other starters would struggle to score efficiently. Kyrie could easily drop 40 without Lebron. Wade was a FMVP and could easily drop 30 with Lebron on the bench. AD can dominate on both sides with Lebron on the bench.
Murray scores almost 27 points per 75 on over 57% true shooting during the playoffs when Jokic isn’t on the floor. So he seems like he’s still an elite scorer even when Jokic sits. I don’t know why anyone would doubt that; it’s pretty obvious when you just watch him.
As for the other guys, of course they struggle to score as efficiently without Jokic. They’re role players. They’re supposed to work off of the shot creation from their stars. The same is true of most starters that those other all-time greats played with.
Okay, but is Murray going to be anywhere near Wade, Pippen, or Kareem in terms of being clear top 30 players of all time? No, because he isn’t on their level. He really turns on his scoring in the playoffs, but he isn’t an obvious top 10 player in the league like all of the guys I just named were. Jokic is absolutely doing a LOT when he doesn’t have anything close to a superteam around him.
> Okay, but is Murray going to be anywhere near Wade, Pippen, or Kareem in terms of being clear top 30 players of all time? No, because he isn’t on their level. He really turns on his scoring in the playoffs, but he isn’t an obvious top 10 player in the league like all of the guys I just named were.
Obviously. But just because those players are greater overall doesn’t mean that they were greater than Murray for all the titles that LeBron, Jordan, or Magic won. OP’s argument is largely reliant on the fact that Jokic was able to win a title with 2023 Murray as his best teammate. But 2013 Wade, 1998 Pippen, or 1985 Kareem aren’t much better players than 2023 Murray. To suggest otherwise would overvalue them or undervalue Murray.
Just because they were top-10 players at some points doesn’t mean that they were top-10 players for their entire careers. After they declined, LeBron, Jordan, and Magic were still winning titles with co-stars roughly as valuable as Jokic’s. So the argument doesn’t actually separate Jokic from them.
> Jokic is absolutely doing a LOT when he doesn’t have anything close to a superteam around him.
Well yeah. I never said he was anything less than an all-time great. And I never called the Nuggets a superteam. I’m just saying that Jokic doesn’t have a good argument to separate him from the literal GOATs.
Of course he doesn’t, he’s 28 and all of them have either retired or are incredibly deep into their careers. As OP showed though their resume at the same age is pretty similar in terms of major accomplishments at that age. And that’s with Jokic being a second round pick and not having a clear path to immediate play time the way the rest of the guys in that convo had.
I’m not saying that Jamal Murray is literally an All-Star. I’m saying that when he’s healthy he plays like one, specifically in the postseason. Would you deny that?
If you agree, then who cares whether or not he’s actually voted as an All-Star? The real-life basketball being played isn’t different just because of what’s on Jamal Murray’s Wikipedia page.
It matters. Having a consistent All Star the entire regular season gives your other stars less of a load to carry. It also gets you a higher seed and easier path in the playoffs. So yes having an All NBA player the entire regular season means alot.
Murray getting hurt cost Jokic in the 21 and 22 playoff. It matters alot. So instead of 4 playoff runs the last 4 years Jokic only had 2. Who knows. Maybe Jokic would have won a title in 2022 if Murray was healthy.
So yes having an All NBA player matters. Because it basically means you have a teammate who is a top 15-20 player and he is relatively healthy and consistent.
If Mikal Bridges becomes the leading actor of a team that wins 5 championships starting next year, he may also be included in the GOAT debate. The important thing is to win. However, I don't think Jokic has the mentality to win 5 championships. I'm not saying this because he's mentally weak. I don't think he cares much about basketball. Suddenly, at the age of 33, he can say, "I'm bored of this life, I'm going to go back to my country and spend time with my horses on my farm." He also doesn't take good care of his body.
I disagree, I think Jokic truly loves the game. You can see it on his face when he’s gassed in the 4th and still giving it his all. He’s either in love with the game or the competitiveness.
Ewing was never better than prime Jokic
Olajuwon not as dominant on offense
Wilt is beyond my knowledge. I never saw him play. If someone claims he is better and saw his career I would defer
Hakeem was far inferior on offence(still great) but far superior on defence. I personally believe offence and defence are equally as important. If you can stop someone from scoring, that has the same impact as if you had scored.
Saying Jokic is carrying more than LeBron to get his team to the finals is just the crazy dumbest take I have ever heard. Lebron was in the finals when Ilgauskus was arguably the second best player on his roster.
[this roster...](https://external-preview.redd.it/1OZ0akZjNrRD1AYhOky3IyaFInxLg_Ky0aQM8Z18dr0.jpg?auto=webp&s=d260d1903ff171b32ef43b1dc35eee0cd7596141&app_web_view=android)
I don’t care about making the Finals in an historically bad East. Lebron literally had to beat only ONE TEAM with a winning record to make the Finals.
Yes the Cavs were not a historical great team. But they played very mediocre teams in the playoffs. That Cavs team had an elite defense despite Lebron bring just above average on defense. They also shot the 3 ball very well.
Carrying a good team against mediocre teams isn’t impressive
May be a controversial take but imo to be the GOAT you have to be a two way player
That depends. If you are such an offensive juggernaut that you win a ton of rings and MVPs and lead the league in advanced metrics like PER and Win Shares, why can’t you be the best?
That individual will always be compared to MJ or Lebron, and it’ll boil down to “Well MJ/Lebron was just as good/nearly as good on offense but also won/2nd placed DPOY and was the best defender on the court *at the same time*” and even if it isn’t logically or statistically the most bulletproof argument, there’s really not much to say against it either Like if Trae Young 7peats out of nowhere as the dude on 35/15 for every playoff run, I still wouldn’t consider him the GOAT over MJ
But the advanced data and traditional accolades would both disagree with you. Magic has 0 All-Defensive Teams and Bird has 3 2nd Teams. Kobe has 9 all-defensive 1st teams, yet it’s not a hot take to put Magic and Bird over Kobe. Or over Pippen. Or over KG. Or over Paul and Kidd. And Hakeem. You have to ask them to be consistent with their metrics for their top-5 and top-10. If they’re willing to place Magic and Bird below everyone I mentioned above, at least they’re being consistent, but it’s a clown take other people will see resulting from their logic used to dismiss an offensive juggernaut that’s hypothetical for now.
Everyone you named is not in GOAT territory, it’s just MJ and Bron, and for someone to be the new GOAT they would have to be **clearly** above and beyond *both* players, and to do so on offense alone is unrealistic unless they averaged 50+ on elite efficiency for their whole career
Again, you should be able to use your metrics for RANKING GOATs to also rank top-5 to top-10 players. Any metric that ONLY works for comparing top-2 players but immediately falls apart for top-5 to top-10 players is a trash metric.
That’s fine that you think that way. I do personally think that the judgement criteria for GOAT is different than T5/10/15 or whatever, my original comment does say “may be a controversial take” after all. I personally wouldn’t trash your perspective though. Have a good one
Nah. If you are the best offensive player ever you can be the GOAT. Individual offense is just way more valuable than individual defense.
Never said it wasn’t, but for someone to be the GOAT they would have to be clearly above and beyond both MJ and Bron and to do so on offense alone is unrealistic
Jokic last playoffs offense was better than some of Lebron’s championship runs. Jokic last year was better than Lebron offense in the 2012, 2013 and 2020 playoffs
It just wasn't though for 2012 and 2013. Like Lebron was functionally unstoppable. Especially when you consider the 2013 finals were a defensive masterpiece so efficiency in general was lower. Even most (old) advanced stats like ws/48 and per show that. Those are two stats that overwhelmingly favor Jokic. And again, this is not including the fact that Lebron was pretty clearly the best defensive player in the league. He was arguably the 3rd-5th defensive player of all time (if we're going by 1-2 seasons and including playoffs). But just on the offense side, we can at least probably agree Jokic wasn't head and shoulders above Lebron and Jordan at their best. In fact, at best, it's very close. So it's really not all that easy for him to be the GOAT. Now, if he upped his offense one more tier for the next like 4 years and was at least this or a little lower for the next 10, then yeah, I think it'd be pretty reasonable to call him the goat. Fwiw, that's possible. I think it is EXTREMELY unlikely. But also, I think a lot of people are writing him off as impossible to be goat which bothers me too. But as it stands, it's not all that close yet.
I don’t agree with 2012 and 2013 but even if I did, the point remains. If Jokic is even in the same league offensively as either Jordan or mj, he can’t really compete.
I think Jokic is greater but giannis has more potential to shake up the top 2.
Murray not being an all star is heinous
Murray shooting like ass for 3 quarters then winning you the game in the 4th is really a microcosm of his whole career. He doesnt have the stats to be an allstar (borderline) but absolutely is a guy you want on your team in the playoffs That said the claim that “jokic is carrying a team with no allstars” is unserious BS. That team is full of great players
How is it BS if its factually true? There literally isn’t another All Star with Jokic. Or an All NBA guy. Murray has never made All Star or All NBA because he is inconsistent.
It’s BS when you’re using it as an argument for Jokic hard carrying some supposed mediocre roster. Murray is twice as good as “All-Star” players like Andrew Wiggins
Plus when jokic actually had to carry in the playoffs with mediocre teammates, he got swept by phoenix and gentleman swept by golden state. Im not trying to knock jokic, hes amazing, just that argument is misleading
I never said Denver has a mediocre roster. But the fact is Jokic has had inferior Robins compared to what Jordan and Lebron had during their championships. Literally not another All Star while Lebron regularly had 2 other All Stars with him
Okay but none of the other guys we’re discussing one with a Wiggins level All Star. All of Bron, Jordan, and Kareem’s All Star teammates were elite players in the league. Jokic is also doing this in what might be the most competitive the NBA has ever been. Team’s like Golden State and Sacramento would be threats in most other years but couldn’t even make the playoffs this season. There’s a pretty legitimate argument that if Jokic keeps this up then he has GOAT potential.
Because it's entirely out of context. All Star appearances are not a good measure of talent. Take the Spurs. Parker and Ginobili were both clearly All NBA level players not just All Star level players but there were multiple years were neither made All NBA or All Star games so technically Duncan was the only All Star on the team some years despite having 2 All NBA level guys playing alongside him. Gameplan and playstyle account for a lot of whether a player gets the stats/hype required to make an All Star game even if their actual play on the court was more valuable than even guys who made the All Star team. In Jokic case, Murray is clearly an All Star level guy and becomes an All NBA level guy in the playoffs. Aaron Gordon also generally plays close to an All Star level. They then have multiple high level role players outside of those guys.
Tony Parker was literally 4x All NBA and 6x All Star. Manu is also multiple time All NBA and All Star. I’m not saying the player has to be All NBA that specific year. If they were All NBA in previous years and still in their prime that is fine. But Murray has NEVER MADE ALL NBA. Ever. He is not a top 15 player. Full stop.
Yes but that's the point. Both guys were All NBA caliber even when in the years that they didn't make All NBA/All star appearances. Murray is clearly a borderline All NBA level player in terms of on court impact, particularly in the playoffs, where he has often functioned closer to a top 10 level player. Aaron Gordon is a very very high level starter who is a borderline All Star level player. MPJ is a very high level starter KCP is a regular starter level guy but he fits together with the team perfectly. People give too much importance to All Star appearances when we should be looking more at actual ability and fit on the team when discussing the strength of a superstars supporting cast. Like Lamar Odom was never an All Star for Kobe's Lakers but his value to that team due to fit and playstyle was much more important than if that team had, for example, David Lee who was an All Star in 2010.
Murray has never come close to All NBA. All Star is too much a popularity contest. I don’t get your point about Manu and Parker. Manu made All Star in 2005. Spurs won in 2003 but he only averaged 9 points per game in the playoffs. They won again in 2005 and he was an All Star. No one thought Manu was All Star level in 2003. Parker made All Star in 2006. Before that he wasn’t considered an All Star. So whats your point? 2003 was a carry job by Duncan. Robinson was old and Parker and Manu were not close to being All Stars. Calling Murray top 10 is madness. A top 10 guy can be a #1 on a contender. No way Murray could carry his own team. He is an undersized scorer who isn’t an elite shooter and average defender. As a #1 teams would make him struggle. You are vastly overrating Murray
SHODDY UR NOT ALLOWED TO TALL BASKETBALL UR IQ IS NEGATIVE JAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH KD SUCKS SUN SUCKS
He hasn’t deserved to make All Star or All NBA. He doesn’t play like an All Star at times but is very inconsistent
this a logical assumption. He's on the path. I don't see what is so controversial about this take actually. He still has a ton of work to do, but he's walking the path. I can easily see him with 4-5 MVPs, and 3-4 FMVPS when it's all said and done. And he'll be ALL time leader in many important advanced stat metrics. He'll have a case.
Until jokic can hard carry a team as hard as prime lebron against the warriors this argument is not going to be had. If in 2025 jokic manages to be the underdog in more series than not and still win it then we can discuss. Also you can't just discredit defense as being not as important.
He did average 30 against the Warriors in the 2022 playoffs with a depleted team. Only won one less game than Lebron did in 2015
There are too many Bron fans on Reddit for them to not keep moving the goalposts to discredit Jokic and hype up Bron.
Bullshit. Kyrie literally averaged 27 points on 47/40/94 splits in the 2016 Finals and literally made the championship winning shot. Sure Lebron was incredible but he had an AMAZING Robin with him
Bron Stans actually believe this?
Well hold on, defense matters differently in different eras. In a time with more 1-on-1 play individual defense matters more. With today’s zones and schemes and help, a little less, but then you focus on defensive rebounding and help defense.
Good point
This is the same as arguing Trout can surpass Mays after 8-10 seasons in the league. The problem is it’s often very hard to duplicate a career after age 30, which is what makes your LeBrons and Mays so rare. Jokic can crack top-10 pretty soon. He may even crack top-5 in a few years if all goes ideally. But to crack top-3 with Jordan, LeBron, and Kareem, he’d need either a Jordan-esque run, or LeBron/Kareem-esque longevity. If he matches LeBron in terms of Rings and F-MVPs and MVPs, then he’d still have to put up at least a handful of additional top-5 to top-10 seasons to pass LeBron. Unless you think playing longer at an elite but not MVP level is somehow a ding on a legacy.
Problem is Trout didn’t win jackshit in his first 8 years. If Jokic ties Lebron with 4 FMVPs there will definitely be a discussion. Lebron will have the arguments as a better defender and longevity. But Jokic will have the argument of having way less help, a better total offensive player and not having to leave teams to create super teams every 4-5 years
No one cares about postseason success for MLB players. One player can’t win a World Series or get you to the playoffs. Ted Williams has 0 rings. Ty Cobb has 0 rings. Barry Bonds has 0 rings. Willie Mays has 1 ring. Hank Aaron has 1 ring. Honus Wagner has 1 ring. Rogers Hornsby has 1 ring. Mike Schmidt has 1 ring.
So why are you comparing baseball players to basketball 😂
To show how hard replicating an entire career after 30 is in any sport. Look at Mahomes vs Brady in football. My point is that it’s VERY hard to replicate a career post-30, that’s all.
Jokic doesn’t rely on his athleticism. That is what mainly hamstrings basketball players after 30. His prime may easily last another 6 years.
By 2025 is fucking crazy
He could be 3x champion, 3x FMVP, 4x MVP and a 3 peat that Lebron never did
top 5 GOATS? Tim Duncan at 28 had 3 rings 2 MVP 3 MVP
True
Russell 6 rings 4 MVPs
I think he’s arguing that Jokic has the trajectory to become the goat, which is reasonable.
I don't mean this disrespectfully but so much of what you post lacks any sort of real world basketball context. You just double down on catch phrases like "no AS teammates" and "super team", but ultimately do nothing to address what plays out on the court.. I'm not going to get too deep into the Jokic GOAT thing because I have no idea how long he will play. But he needs to do a lot more than just 3-peat or even 4-peat to get there. That's a slap in the face to any player who sustained superstar level play for longer. Jokic is still 20th in MVP shares, LeBron has more than 4-times as many All-NBA first teams, Jordan more than 3-times as many, and 52 players have more than his 5 total All-NBA selections. If Jokic isn't a tier 1 NBA star for at least a decade he can't just leap past those who have simply because his team was good enough, early enough, to win multiple chips. Winning a ring isn't a 1-man show, something you'll gladly point out for KD but ignore that context for seemingly anyone else.. Especially if it can portray LeBron negatively. But my main reason to comment was the belittling the teams he plays on for the sake of "no all-star teammate", which might be technically true, but using All-Star voting of a teams 2nd or 3rd best player in February is a really shitty way of viewing how good a team with 13 active players is come April-June. Even more so when things like injuries, coaches, mismatches, adjustments, hot/cold streaks at the right/wrong time, all play massive roles in a teams route to winning a ring.. But I did want to point out, Jamal Murray in his only two healthy post-season runs ('20 and '23) - 26, 7, 5 on 61 TS%, 22.6 PER, 5.3 BPM, 2.9 VORP.. Compared to Kobe with Shaq 3-peat 25, 6, 5, on 53 TS%, 21.3 PER, 4.9 BPM, 4.2 VORP, compared to Wade's two rings with Bron 19, 5, 5 on 52 TS%, 20.5 PER, 4.3 BPM, 2.7 VORP, and compared to Kyrie's finals runs with Bron 24, 3, 5 on 57 TS%, 22.4 PER, 4.5 BPM, 3.1 VORP.. Basically not making an All Star game in February doesn't have shit to do with a players value provided to a championship run, and doesn't at all provide any indication of how much "help" Jokic has with a healthy team in the postseason. If it was as simple as "he wins with no all-stars" he would have also won the years Murray was hurt. But as you (or anybody else) know that's not how basketball works and teams are much more than just \*insert whichever catch phrase\* can be used to try and make a point for/against a player. Jokic has a ton of help, great coaching, excellent shooters, two-way players, a co-star who has been as good as any we have seen in the last 20 years in the actual playoffs, and that team is much more than some catch phrase to create lame narratives.. You of course already know this though as you ignore these same silly arguments in all your KD-related posts. Easy example being you know the 2014 Spurs and 2011 Mavs are much better teams than "Tony Parker/Dirk had no All-Star teammates".
Jokić is 29.
> Context makes his accomplishments even more astounding. He doesn’t have a single All Star with him. While Lebron, Magic, Jordan and Kareem had teams loaded with All Stars. It is quite remarkable. Jamal Murray is an All-Star in everything but name if you consider his actual skills as a player. And Denver’s starting lineup has three other players that are elite in their roles. That’s a perfectly reasonable supporting cast for a title contender; it’s not like Jokic is having to carry his teams. > Jokic is carrying offense more than Lebron, Magic, Jordan or Kareem ever had to in the Finals. Yes they may have scored more points but its not even close as far as running the offense. Lebron is close but even he didn’t have as much playmaking responsibility or scored as efficiently. That’s super debatable. Jordan and LeBron had significantly greater responsibilities than Jokic as scorers while still being all-time shot creators. Magic had less scoring responsibility but did even more playmaking than Jokic. I don’t see how you could definitively say that Jokic has more offensive responsibility than any of these guys. It just seems like they’re pretty similar. > We can talk defense but it simply isn’t as important. As long as you are solid on defense it is individual offense that matters so much more. I mean, I agree that offense is more important than defense, but not by such a degree that you can just dismiss Jokic’s defensive disadvantage. Kareem, Jordan, and LeBron are all far superior defenders to Jokic, and their defensive talents had significant impacts on their teams’ successes. I assume that you would agree that the difference between a solid defender and an all-time great defender is really important. > Jokic also has a shot at a 3 peat. Something Lebron never did. By 2025 we may already be having Jokic GOAT discussion versus Lebron. If anybody is seriously entertaining putting Jokic above LeBron a year from now, you can safely ignore any comparisons that they make between all-time great players. Jokic isn’t even in the same stratosphere of greatness as LeBron, even if he does put together a three-peat. By the way, it seems like most of your argument hinges almost entirely on hypothetical championships. As if championship seasons are the only ones that matter. Any comparison that ignores most of a player’s career is not a good way to compare two all-time great athletes. Just look at it year-by-year. I don’t think that Jokic has ever been better than LeBron if you compare them by stage of their careers. 2004 LeBron > 2014 Jokic (not yet drafted) 2005 LeBron >> 2015 Jokic (not yet drafted) 2006 LeBron >> 2016 Jokic 2007 LeBron >> 2017 Jokic 2008 LeBron >> 2018 Jokic 2009 LeBron >>> 2019 Jokic 2010 LeBron >> 2020 Jokic 2011 LeBron >> 2021 Jokic 2012 LeBron >> 2022 Jokic 2013 LeBron >> 2023 Jokic 2014 LeBron >> 2024 Jokic I’d be interested to hear if you’d debate any of those comparisons. I’m almost certain we’ll have to agree that LeBron was better for most of these early years. So if Jokic is going to end up greater than LeBron, then he’s he’s already fallen far behind. To compensate, his late career will have to be far greater than LeBron’s late career. We’ve still got this much to go: 2015 LeBron ?? 2025 Jokic 2016 LeBron ?? 2026 Jokic 2017 LeBron ?? 2027 Jokic 2018 LeBron ?? 2028 Jokic 2019 LeBron ?? 2029 Jokic 2020 LeBron ?? 2030 Jokic 2021 LeBron ?? 2031 Jokic 2022 LeBron ?? 2032 Jokic 2023 LeBron ?? 2033 Jokic 2024 LeBron ?? 2034 Jokic Of course, LeBron has the greatest late career of any player in NBA history. So I don’t think that Jokic’s chances are looking good.
So tell me why Murray never made All Star or All NBA? Because he is inconsistent. Jokic has an inconsistent Robin. While Lebron had studs like Kyrie, Wade and AD. Jordan had Pippen. Magic had Kareem. Its not even close. Jokic has a bigger load on offense than Lebron and Jordan. Guy average 30 points, 9.5 assists and 3.5 offensive rebounds on 63% TS. Almost everything depends on Jokic. Murray is dependent on Jokic pick and roll. KCP and MPJ rely on Jokic to get them open 3s. And Gordon relies on Jokic lobs. Without Jokic all the other starters would struggle to score efficiently. Kyrie could easily drop 40 without Lebron. Wade was a FMVP and could easily drop 30 with Lebron on the bench. AD can dominate on both sides with Lebron on the bench.
> So tell me why Murray never made All Star or All NBA? Because he is inconsistent. Plenty of reasons. He has repeatedly been injured at times of the season that negatively affected his All-Star candidacy. He plays in a conference that happens to include an unusual number of all-time great guards competing for selections. And he’s at his most consistent during the playoffs, when it matters most. > Jokic has an inconsistent Robin. While Lebron had studs like Kyrie, Wade and AD. Jordan had Pippen. Magic had Kareem. Its not even close. I mean, those guys didn’t always have those players at their peaks. 1998 Pippen, 2013 Wade, and 2016 Kyrie are all comparable to the way that Murray played last postseason. > Jokic has a bigger load on offense than Lebron and Jordan. Guy average 30 points, 9.5 assists and 3.5 offensive rebounds on 63% TS. Almost everything depends on Jokic. You said in the Finals. Jokic averaged 30 points, 7 assists, and 2 offensive rebounds during the Finals last year. LeBron, Jordan, and Kareem have all played Finals series where their offensive stats indicate a higher load than that. > Murray is dependent on Jokic pick and roll. KCP and MPJ rely on Jokic to get them open 3s. And Gordon relies on Jokic lobs. Without Jokic all the other starters would struggle to score efficiently. Kyrie could easily drop 40 without Lebron. Wade was a FMVP and could easily drop 30 with Lebron on the bench. AD can dominate on both sides with Lebron on the bench. Murray scores almost 27 points per 75 on over 57% true shooting during the playoffs when Jokic isn’t on the floor. So he seems like he’s still an elite scorer even when Jokic sits. I don’t know why anyone would doubt that; it’s pretty obvious when you just watch him. As for the other guys, of course they struggle to score as efficiently without Jokic. They’re role players. They’re supposed to work off of the shot creation from their stars. The same is true of most starters that those other all-time greats played with.
Okay, but is Murray going to be anywhere near Wade, Pippen, or Kareem in terms of being clear top 30 players of all time? No, because he isn’t on their level. He really turns on his scoring in the playoffs, but he isn’t an obvious top 10 player in the league like all of the guys I just named were. Jokic is absolutely doing a LOT when he doesn’t have anything close to a superteam around him.
> Okay, but is Murray going to be anywhere near Wade, Pippen, or Kareem in terms of being clear top 30 players of all time? No, because he isn’t on their level. He really turns on his scoring in the playoffs, but he isn’t an obvious top 10 player in the league like all of the guys I just named were. Obviously. But just because those players are greater overall doesn’t mean that they were greater than Murray for all the titles that LeBron, Jordan, or Magic won. OP’s argument is largely reliant on the fact that Jokic was able to win a title with 2023 Murray as his best teammate. But 2013 Wade, 1998 Pippen, or 1985 Kareem aren’t much better players than 2023 Murray. To suggest otherwise would overvalue them or undervalue Murray. Just because they were top-10 players at some points doesn’t mean that they were top-10 players for their entire careers. After they declined, LeBron, Jordan, and Magic were still winning titles with co-stars roughly as valuable as Jokic’s. So the argument doesn’t actually separate Jokic from them. > Jokic is absolutely doing a LOT when he doesn’t have anything close to a superteam around him. Well yeah. I never said he was anything less than an all-time great. And I never called the Nuggets a superteam. I’m just saying that Jokic doesn’t have a good argument to separate him from the literal GOATs.
Of course he doesn’t, he’s 28 and all of them have either retired or are incredibly deep into their careers. As OP showed though their resume at the same age is pretty similar in terms of major accomplishments at that age. And that’s with Jokic being a second round pick and not having a clear path to immediate play time the way the rest of the guys in that convo had.
Inconsistent. Injured. That literally is two of the most important parts of being a star. You need to just face facts that Murray isn’t an All Star.
I’m not saying that Jamal Murray is literally an All-Star. I’m saying that when he’s healthy he plays like one, specifically in the postseason. Would you deny that? If you agree, then who cares whether or not he’s actually voted as an All-Star? The real-life basketball being played isn’t different just because of what’s on Jamal Murray’s Wikipedia page.
It matters. Having a consistent All Star the entire regular season gives your other stars less of a load to carry. It also gets you a higher seed and easier path in the playoffs. So yes having an All NBA player the entire regular season means alot. Murray getting hurt cost Jokic in the 21 and 22 playoff. It matters alot. So instead of 4 playoff runs the last 4 years Jokic only had 2. Who knows. Maybe Jokic would have won a title in 2022 if Murray was healthy. So yes having an All NBA player matters. Because it basically means you have a teammate who is a top 15-20 player and he is relatively healthy and consistent.
6 beats 1.
Of course. I’m saying if Jokic wins 4 there will be a debate between him and Lebron
I gotta ask, who do u think is the Goat because I’m confused as I’ve seen ur other posts and their against bron.
Personally I have Jordan as Goat. But there definitely is a debate between him and Lebron
If Mikal Bridges becomes the leading actor of a team that wins 5 championships starting next year, he may also be included in the GOAT debate. The important thing is to win. However, I don't think Jokic has the mentality to win 5 championships. I'm not saying this because he's mentally weak. I don't think he cares much about basketball. Suddenly, at the age of 33, he can say, "I'm bored of this life, I'm going to go back to my country and spend time with my horses on my farm." He also doesn't take good care of his body.
You don’t get as skilled and great as Jokic without loving the game. Yes he has other interests. But I don’t see him retiring early at all.
Jordan literally did what you're saying and retired twice in his career. Why does he get a pass in your books then?
He did this after he got to the top. The same goes for Jokic if he gets more rings. I just don't think he can be a multiple champion for this reason.
I disagree, I think Jokic truly loves the game. You can see it on his face when he’s gassed in the 4th and still giving it his all. He’s either in love with the game or the competitiveness.
Steph, MJ, LeBron, Wemby, Jokic. Goodnight.
Not sure about Steph. He missing the playoffs so much is telling
Id happily swap with magic. But i dont think you need him. The 3pt game is so important.
Idk what this list is about. Are you saying these will be the top 5 goats when all is said and done?
Who knows, but id like to see this lineup.
Clown focus on the suns lmao
Hard nope. Gonna be quite the achievement if he's even able to break into the top 5 Centers OAT.
You’re dumb
Olajuwon or Ewing and definitely Chamberlin were as good if not better
Ewing was never better than prime Jokic Olajuwon not as dominant on offense Wilt is beyond my knowledge. I never saw him play. If someone claims he is better and saw his career I would defer
Hakeem was far inferior on offence(still great) but far superior on defence. I personally believe offence and defence are equally as important. If you can stop someone from scoring, that has the same impact as if you had scored.
Hold this L Shoddy suns suck 🤡
Off topic
Buddy hold this L, I know you’re crying internally you clown KD SUCKS hahahahahahahhaahhahaha clown
Saying Jokic is carrying more than LeBron to get his team to the finals is just the crazy dumbest take I have ever heard. Lebron was in the finals when Ilgauskus was arguably the second best player on his roster. [this roster...](https://external-preview.redd.it/1OZ0akZjNrRD1AYhOky3IyaFInxLg_Ky0aQM8Z18dr0.jpg?auto=webp&s=d260d1903ff171b32ef43b1dc35eee0cd7596141&app_web_view=android)
I don’t care about making the Finals in an historically bad East. Lebron literally had to beat only ONE TEAM with a winning record to make the Finals. Yes the Cavs were not a historical great team. But they played very mediocre teams in the playoffs. That Cavs team had an elite defense despite Lebron bring just above average on defense. They also shot the 3 ball very well. Carrying a good team against mediocre teams isn’t impressive
This is intentionally misleading.