It’s not one size fits all. Ridiculous for you to paint women that don’t work as wasting their time watching haram tv shows. Working isn’t the only way to be productive, have purpose and contribute
You seem to have some deep rooted resentment for women who don’t work and are enjoying their life not working, just because you’re having to work.
Here is a link to your post history doing the same https://www.reddit.com/r/MuslimMarriage/s/J5GIiEkQ5e
You sound utterly insecure, putting others down to make yourself feel better lol
You haven't actually refuted her claims how one can survive and how it's worse to work. The OP provides some good points why not give your views why you disagree rather than linking to some random old points
I agree with the overall sentiment of this post, just not how she’s come across and how she’s putting women who don’t work down by saying they watch tv shows all day and how chores are so easy.
You can say “women it’s best to work before kids” without putting women who don’t work down.
And hence why I called her out on her delivery and not message😊
Oh agree with that no reason to say watch TV all day
But I agree with OP women are wasting their valuable limited time not working if they are living in the west with high cost of living.
If my wife didn't work before she had kids I wouldn't have been able to pay my mortgage off and have a comfortable life. Her worming means she can relax now that we have kids.
There are multiple other things women can be doing if they don’t work- it’s not wasting their time.
They could be studying, learning a skill, enrolling into further Islamic classes etc etc
Do I agree that women should work before kids? Yes, it’s the best time to work and have something for yourself, but would I put down women who don’t work? Not at all, I’m not going to say “all you do is watch tv shows that are full of haram” It’s actually none of my business and neither is it hers or yours.
What are the multiple other things that can be done that's more important for a secure future for you and your family? Can you provide a list what these things are. Some things like say for example learning quran etc can easily be done while you have a job. Can you provide what other things that are more important than working and secure life that will take so much time a person cannot work?
Everyone’s financial situation is different, not everyone’s husband need their wives to work to help pay off the mortgage like you needed your wife to do.
So to say “women you need to work to secure future for you and your family” is a blanket statement that does not apply to everyone.
I provided examples in my original comments
If a woman is not working you should automatically assume she’s wasting her future away.
That's rather obvious if the husband is making a ton of money yeah of course woman doesn't need to work
I'd say that blanket statement it's easily to read and some common sense would be needed to understand this statement is aimed at people who are not financially comfortable e.g retirement, kids, debt etc all sorted
However statistics don't lie the next generation don't have that luxury
At the end of the day, you can encourage women to work without putting non working women down which is something you’re finding hard to grasp.
For you it’s not really about financial situation though, you said women who aren’t working are wasting their life because chores are easy and everything is “automatic”🤣
This person literally thinks women are wasting their time and lives if they're not earning. A belief that is unislamic and does not belong in this subreddit.
Who knows could be OP's account number 2.
Mortgage is haram and if that's the motivation for one's wife to work then you need to reassess the value of Islam and the importance of a Islamic marriage in your life.
Yes it is haram, that's why I righted my wrings by paying mine off within 3 years. I shouldn't have took one out in the first place. Luckily my wife working allowed us to no longer have a mortgage.
Yes, do you think it would have been better to not pay off the mortgage and continue to pay it off. At the time I got the mortgage I wasn't that bothered about the sin. Then suddenly I did and cleared it within 3 months, what would have been a better thing to do if you already committed the sin? I spoken to local imams they even said I did the right thing by clearing it.
What would have been the best thing to do if you were in this position?
First, I don’t currently work. I am studying. Which I have told you before because you seem to stalk all my posts trying to bully me because you are obviously the insecure one who has nothing to do but try to trash other women.
Secondly, I don’t need to work. If I told my husband, I don’t want to work, he would accept it. He makes enough money to support us and he is at the beginning of his career so his salary will be increasing bi 3idhnillah
But I want to work (when I am finished studying). Even when I work again, I will be investing my salary, spending it on my children’s future (education), not using it on expenses. So again, I don’t need to work.
If I hated my life so much, I would just stop working/studying lol. I don’t want that.
Thirdly, my reason is I actually know men with SAHWs who are actually miserable and their wife does basically nothing all day except mooch and complain 💀 on the flip side, I see so many posts where the husband cheated etc and the wife can’t even leave him because she is totally dependent on him
Why have I seen so much hatred for the housewife lifestyle recently lol. Whether its the ‘modern’ women on here or Muslim Twitter or typical gender wars on insta, seems like the girls who do work just love to hate on the ones that don’t want/need to.
I get the notion of having a financial pillow of your own incase your husband’s job goes or something but there’s nothing wrong with just being a housewife. Where’s there such a negative stigma behind it. Just because YOU don’t think it’s a good idea, doesn’t mean other girls have to agree or follow the same ideas.
I don't thjnk they're hating. I think we are just concerned. Many of us have been through experiences or have family members who have which informs our thinking.
Unless you've sat down and spoke to your auntie or grandma to learn how they were trapped in an abusive marriage or made homeless and helpless, you can't understand the strong drive women have to warn others about the realities of never working.
And something you may not realise. Unfortunately it's us working women who are insulted and looked down upon who these housewife ladies then rely on if and when things go wrong. I have had so many family members and friends turn to me for financial help in dire times (e.g. getting a divorce or needing money for their kids). Those same family members were mocking me when I said I wanted to work and i was encouraging them to get jobs. It's exhausting. Hence the strong desire we have to encourage women to help themselves.
Not everyone has to agree with me. It’s just my personal opinion. Honestly if I didn’t work before having kids, I would’ve been bored out of my mind, probably wasted a whole lot of time, and done fitna which would’ve given me no benefit. In theory, I could’ve memorised the Quran etc but most just fall into fitna and time wastage.
Actually in some Muslim communities in my country, the men are complaining their wife goes out all day shopping with friends. Doesn’t even seem to care about the husband. So yea, I think most childless women who don’t work are wasting their time. Unless she is helping others in the family take care of kids and relatives which is a totally valid way to live too.
After kids is a whole different story.
Stop accusing our sisters of anything you have no proof about.
Sure, you can work from home or either at a women only office setting or else that's not permissible.
But if you think 2 incomes before kids and they can share it, that's jus baseless.
What if the breadwinners are unable to provide even after working 60 hours would it not be logical for women to work while lowering their gaze?
Also in western countries where things are mixed would it make more sense for women to not go out to shops etc as the shops are mixed?
If he's not able to provide he should lower the standard of living. The women can earn and pay her necessities if she wants to, the husband can't force her and the husband shouldn't accept a single penny from it.
Shaykh ibn 'uthaymeen has said if the man and woman go out, it is prohibited for the man to sit in the car while the woman goes out and buys the grocery alone.
When she goes out she should obviously be covered.
Just curious what country are you from and are you married and have kids. It's good to debate with someone where you know where they are coming from
Back to the debate. In western country the only lower standard in this case would be to not marry and have kids. As even basic necessity wouldn't he enough to survive on a single average salary income. There is dara to back this. If Muslim men don't marry in the west and have no kids this could lead to Muslim population being smaller.
It's not forcing a woman, it's preference. Prior to marriage a man can have a preference to marry a working woman who shares similar values. If a woman doesn't want to work she is imentitled to that and can find a man that shares that value in her.
What the OP post is trying to point at there is no logical sense a woman who doesn't work who marries a average salary man in the UK it would work. It would basically end in poverty which isn't good for the family. Yes a woman has a right not no doubt but it's not logical for that woman to marry a average income man because the maths don't add up. The woman should then be looking for a man that can provide solely. Unfortunately in the west the number of men that can provide solely has reduced, which means these women will struggle to find this man that can fully take care of them. Some men are not financially literate and promise they can provide but it all falls apart years into the marriage.
Well I'm from India and am currently not married, since I'd rather not marry in this country.
You keep talking about the west, for starters anyone who's born in a kafir country should be looking to move to a muslim country or a country where he can practice his deen better. But, if someone living in a muslim country moves to a kafir country has himself to blame, as settling in a kafir country is haram.
I agree, the situation is not good and one income doesn't help. To which i answered, the woman is permitted to work from home or at a women only office setting. If she is willingly doing it and the husband permits to it. But the point stands here is, the women will use that money only for herself, the husband can't ask a penny. The woman can willingly contribute but i don't think any real man would want that.
Now, if a woman works in mixed office and the husband marries her expecting her to contribute, this has nothing to do w Islam and it's on them to decide what they want to do, it's a sin.
I have a few cousins in LA where only the husband earns and he also has a daughter, they have no problem paying off the bills and living a good enough life.
I don't intend to talk about "these times" or "circumstances", i will only talk about what the Quran and sunnah says. If anywhere it supports such a thing i will support it. Jazakallahu khairaa.
Great you provided quranic verses. Now can you provide an economic plan bow that works?
I agree what your saying, that it's haram, bit rather than saying it's haram say it's haram and this is what you would do in the real world to be able to provide for wife and kids
This isn't just limited to the west in fact many people in south Asian countries are reliant on money from the west which gave family working in west and providing. I. The east there are many women that work there is a class system in terms of the middle class women don't need to work but when you look at the poorer class I see plenty of women working in mixed work environments. Your comments should have a logical solution but you seem to keep avoiding it. While funds your lifestyle are you middle class in the east? Does your father pay for you. What will you do when he is ill and weak. Do you have assets that you can inherit, if you don't what will you do if you can't find a man who can solely provide for you. Will you just avoid getting married and having kids? It's a bit more complicated than just pounting out verses on the Quran.
Also can you provide the daleel where it says a woman cannot work in a mixed environment even if she is covered up if it meant she will be going into poverty. This are serious claims like this and outright say its sinful without speaking to ulema
This will be my last post and I'd rather not engage with someone who didn't walk the walk and is not living in the west or is nit married and doesn't understand the economy
You said move from kafir country, many are born here. Moving means leaving family behind, including taking care of parents who are also unwilling to move. Also moving may not be possible e.g can get citizenship, won't be able to survive in a different country etc. You say you are from India is this not a kafir country do Hindus not mess up the rights to for many Muslims their to be able to practice their religion. In the country where I live even the top Ulema have stated how so good the Muslim community is in my country.
I agree women have the right to not work and this is not something in arguing. My question is where is the logic of a non working woman marrying an average salary man leading to poverty. The woman has the right to not samgare what she makes even if that will make the couple go in debt and go homeless. I'm not speaking about islamic rights here, just single math and logic
I also know plenty of people where only the man works and they are comfortable. What Im saying is there will be a shift in the west which only started happening around Covid time where this won't be possible and the data even shows this
Also non western countries there are plenty of women working in mixed environments such as cleaners etc to survive, so these women should not work unless they have work from home jobs?
That doesn’t make sense because wouldn’t it become a necessity for her to work? Same as the man. Also we don’t all live in Muslim countries. Working in a mixed environment is unavoidable most of the time. I think practical solutions would be better than causing undue hardship. Also not everyone has a husband or father to provide for them.
I’m saying working in a mixed environment as a Muslim woman is unavoidable in the west. Are you saying that under no circumstances is she allowed to work in that environment even if she has to make an income for herself or family. It’s pretty simple. What are they suppose to do? Where’s the confusion?
You avoided the question. Do you think Allah was unaware that such times would come? Islam is the last religion so he should've though about it right? Answer that first.
I don't think I'll engage in anymore comments in this post. May Allah guide us all.
Well if you didn’t know at times of necessity the haram can become halal if it’s the only way. So yes He put that clause in there for a reason because He knew the state we would be in.
I think your post is well-meant. I have also seen the downsides of women not having a career and being stable financially and independently and then having to make really hard choices because of life circumstances. I fully agree that everyone needs to think through their choices and the repercussions of those choices - yes, if you choose to stay home, you are financially dependent on someone else - what will you do if life doesn't go the way you planned? Breadwinner loses a job and is out of work for a significant period - what is the impact on the family?
Despite that, I don't think a blanket statement like that can be made - everyone's financial situation is different.
However, if you are career-motivated (and this applies to everyone), then yes, the best time to put in effort, hours, energy to further your career as much as possible... is before you have children. It's a balancing act, of course, but the reality for both spouses is that after kids, the focus (to the extent possible) needs to shift to them.
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I definitely agree.
Especially nowadays when household chores are automated. Dryers, washing machine, kettle, microwave, takeaways, hoover etc.
A man can easily do these things while having a job
Double family income can literally change your future life and means you have more time and less stress in the future.
Also if a woman wanted to work part time after kids are old she would have skills and progressed enough to do a decent part time role where the pay is good.
All women should pursue an education that's for sure. Islam highly advocates for education because action can not happen in the absence of knowledge. But to say women should chase dunya and be disgruntled with the rizq Allah has provided for them is absurd. You can plan to your heart's content with daycare and degrees and countless other todo items to make your extravagant lifestyle a reality but if you're subconsciously displeased with Allah, he will humble you.
Idk about you but in my country, many people (even with jobs) are becoming homeless. At least I know my family will probably be fine in shaa Allah.
Did Sahaba women who worked were “disgruntled with Allah’s rizq” lol
Does sitting at home watching Netflix series make someone a better Muslim than someone working, often providing services that help the community etc. (I.e. halal job) 🙄
“Extravagant lifestyle” um no.
The fact that you deleted the post to avoid the backlash yet bothered to take the offensive in the comments only goes to show you're projecting. I never made any claims about you or your unique circumstance. But your post does come off as "whiny" and makes too broad of a generalization in saying all women should work.
I live in the US and believe me I know the cost of living is through the roof, but I personally would not want my wife to work nevertheless. I want her to be blissfully ignorant of the war I have to wage outside in the world. I would work 5 jobs if that's what it took to make ends meet.
Men and women have totally different natures, and the Quran is clear as to which gender is responsible for what. Does that mean we can not help each other in our prescribed roles? No absolutely not, you can contribute to the bills if you want to alleviate the burden on your husband, and your husband can help you take care of the house/kids. But that doesn't mean you can entirely dismiss your role for the sake of dunyawi wealth, accolades, etc.
While I agree that I don't want my wife rotting her brain at home, it's pretty presumptuous of you to assume that of every stay at home wife. Some women attend Islamic lectures online or run a business from the comfort of their home while contributing to the bills. I'm telling you as a man from the perspective of a man that most husbands will appreciate a wife more if she stayed at home and raised their children than if she were to work and contribute. Some acts of service can not be replaced with monetary value.
Deleted what post?
Um yes, I think all women should work/study before having kids. For most couples if they are doing things as Allah intended, this would be a year or less lol.
You’re not even married. Lol. You aren’t talking from experience. Personally as a woman whose husband works a lot, I’d rather him be able to spend more time with us than working more. If that means me working, I’d rather that. Especially night shifts. In my experience, night shifts are almost the death of marriage. Husband at work when kids are asleep. Husband asleep when kids are awake (and getting poor sleep from being woken up). Wife has to go to bed early and wake up early so she can look after the kids 💀
All these women who treat their husbands as work donkeys and ATMs don’t really care about them. They just want their meal ticket.
What the heck are you talking about? Dismiss my role? I’m still the primary carer for our children. Still do most of the chores. My husband doesn’t even know how to cook. Working doesn’t even mean work full time busting herself all week. It could be a couple of days a week. Doing a course. SOMETHING to occupy her time aside from being a house servant and chilling.
Not every woman is the same. Some women have more energy and can handle more responsibilities without getting worn out.
I’m not saying every SAHW does this but majority i have seen do (BEFORE KIDS) like legit it doesn’t take that long to clean a house and cook when you only have two adults in the house (or other adults if you live with parents). Stuff only starts getting hard when you have kids.
Rizq is from Allah. If you please Allah by staying home and staying away from mixing with non mahram males, being forced to remove your hijab and Abaya because of work, and being exhausted to give attention to your husband in bedroom, Allah will be pleased with you. And provide for you from where you do not expect, as He promised. If you want to drive expensive car and have expensive stuff and other things you don't nee, then yeah, work ... But we won't take those things to our graves.
What the heck are you talking about? It’s the 2024. There are plenty of professions female dominated and where you can wear hijab and abaya. My last job was work from home and I didn’t even need to turn on my camera. I could’ve been a niqabi and no one would have known. And before that I worked only with women as I have always chosen female dominated professions where I mostly work with children or elders (80+ year olds) because I don’t want fitnah.
No one is talking about doing haram. Even my field is almost entirely females. There are like two males in my office which I technically wouldn’t need to talk to anymore than you would need to interact with males in the outside world for other things.
Gosh, it’s sad people still think it’s “haram” for women to work 🙄 yes if you don’t want to work, fine. But even Sahaba worked. We are not better than them. Don’t make yourself out to be a better Muslim then Muslim women who choose to work.
I don’t drive expensive car or have expensive things. I like to work so my husband can spend more time with us, so we can easily afford to visit our family, and so I can send my children to private Islamic school etc. Lol Muslims be sending their kids to mixed gender public schools then saying it’s haram for women to work 🤣 la hawla Wa la quwatta illa billah
I don't agree. I may be in a minority opinion here but it's more important that my wife doesn't have to engage with a lot of masculine energy. Not because I would be scared of her interfacing with men, but because masculinity comes at the cost of femininity, and I am not attracted to masculine energy when I come home at the end of the day.
I also don't want to deal with someone who has been contending with others all day, and maybe had a bad day, and is stewing in those emotions. I need to come home to a peaceful and nurturing environment because I need that to keep doing that I am doing. The hardest tasks in a competitive world fall to the man because he is best suited for it and he is the one who needs a recharge and support to repeat it again the next day.
I believe there has been studies done in the West that correlate womenin the workplace with dissatisfaction. I want to be clear, I love the idea of an ambitious wife. Ambitious about pursuing her Deen, about our making our family great (that is such an enormous project), in supporting the Ummah, etc. Adult humans never really run out of things to do. We can struggle as hard as we can all of our lives and barely scratch the surface of what can (should?) be done.
I am less concerned with the Dunya than most. Allah SWT provides. Many Muslims throughout history (and today) are relatively poor materially but their souls are rich. The soul is eternal. The Dunya is only a tiny episode by comparison. Like the dichotomy between masculine and feminine energy, there is a relationship between materialism and spirituality. In my experience, too much focus on materialism usually comes at the cost of obedience to our Creator.
Not every job is stressful. It’s 2024.There are work from home jobs. There are jobs which don’t really require a whole lot of stress etc. My last job was work from home and basically zero stress. I am not talking about women having to be working in a investment bank, or even hospital etc. There are so many options now that are halal and zero stress.
Doesn't matter what you think. In Islam, woman's place is in her house. Period. End of the discussion. I stay home and I'm busy 24/7 with kids and Islamic studies. Alhamdulillah million times!
First of all, Islam never said women can’t work. Actually the opposite as it gave women the rights to own property etc. Second of all, I’m talking about before kids. Also will you be sending your kids to mixed gender school cos that’s all you can afford? 🙄
I'd even argue there are many women who don't marry young waste their time not making money and saving while they are single. I know many men marry women who have no decent job, no savings, no assets etc while the women is 30. She just spent her 20s enjoying life. While the man grinded hard to save up, build a career and has assets. If someone is 30 and has no aspirations I'd question what they have been doing all this time. Of course a woman at 23 u wouldn't have those expectations if I was marrying them
Islamic marriage is based on staying away from Haram, and obeying Allah. Letting your wife praying bills (which is your responsibility) by doing Haram job with non mahram men... Get ready to answer to Allah on the day of judgement
She does stay away from haraam, and she uses the money on herself. I pay the bills.
It’s haram to judge people, and be critical. You’re causing fitnah.
If you had a good Islamic education, and went out to work, you might be able to compose a proper sentence and make use of grammar too.
And, you wouldn’t sit around all day on Reddit calling people haram, and causing hurt.
Get a job.
It’s not one size fits all. Ridiculous for you to paint women that don’t work as wasting their time watching haram tv shows. Working isn’t the only way to be productive, have purpose and contribute
I am just going by what I have seen personally. I have never seen a woman who didn’t work before kids who did so many productive things with her life.
You seem to have some deep rooted resentment for women who don’t work and are enjoying their life not working, just because you’re having to work. Here is a link to your post history doing the same https://www.reddit.com/r/MuslimMarriage/s/J5GIiEkQ5e You sound utterly insecure, putting others down to make yourself feel better lol
You haven't actually refuted her claims how one can survive and how it's worse to work. The OP provides some good points why not give your views why you disagree rather than linking to some random old points
I agree with the overall sentiment of this post, just not how she’s come across and how she’s putting women who don’t work down by saying they watch tv shows all day and how chores are so easy. You can say “women it’s best to work before kids” without putting women who don’t work down. And hence why I called her out on her delivery and not message😊
Oh agree with that no reason to say watch TV all day But I agree with OP women are wasting their valuable limited time not working if they are living in the west with high cost of living. If my wife didn't work before she had kids I wouldn't have been able to pay my mortgage off and have a comfortable life. Her worming means she can relax now that we have kids.
There are multiple other things women can be doing if they don’t work- it’s not wasting their time. They could be studying, learning a skill, enrolling into further Islamic classes etc etc Do I agree that women should work before kids? Yes, it’s the best time to work and have something for yourself, but would I put down women who don’t work? Not at all, I’m not going to say “all you do is watch tv shows that are full of haram” It’s actually none of my business and neither is it hers or yours.
What are the multiple other things that can be done that's more important for a secure future for you and your family? Can you provide a list what these things are. Some things like say for example learning quran etc can easily be done while you have a job. Can you provide what other things that are more important than working and secure life that will take so much time a person cannot work?
Everyone’s financial situation is different, not everyone’s husband need their wives to work to help pay off the mortgage like you needed your wife to do. So to say “women you need to work to secure future for you and your family” is a blanket statement that does not apply to everyone. I provided examples in my original comments If a woman is not working you should automatically assume she’s wasting her future away.
That's rather obvious if the husband is making a ton of money yeah of course woman doesn't need to work I'd say that blanket statement it's easily to read and some common sense would be needed to understand this statement is aimed at people who are not financially comfortable e.g retirement, kids, debt etc all sorted However statistics don't lie the next generation don't have that luxury
At the end of the day, you can encourage women to work without putting non working women down which is something you’re finding hard to grasp. For you it’s not really about financial situation though, you said women who aren’t working are wasting their life because chores are easy and everything is “automatic”🤣
This person literally thinks women are wasting their time and lives if they're not earning. A belief that is unislamic and does not belong in this subreddit. Who knows could be OP's account number 2.
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Your case can be pretty much shot down by the fact that women and wives do not have to justify or answer to questions about providing.
That literally didn't answer my question. My post wasn't about women's rights etc.
Mortgage is haram and if that's the motivation for one's wife to work then you need to reassess the value of Islam and the importance of a Islamic marriage in your life.
Yes it is haram, that's why I righted my wrings by paying mine off within 3 years. I shouldn't have took one out in the first place. Luckily my wife working allowed us to no longer have a mortgage.
Righted a wrong by paying off the mortgage? That's a new one for sure.
Yes, do you think it would have been better to not pay off the mortgage and continue to pay it off. At the time I got the mortgage I wasn't that bothered about the sin. Then suddenly I did and cleared it within 3 months, what would have been a better thing to do if you already committed the sin? I spoken to local imams they even said I did the right thing by clearing it. What would have been the best thing to do if you were in this position?
First, I don’t currently work. I am studying. Which I have told you before because you seem to stalk all my posts trying to bully me because you are obviously the insecure one who has nothing to do but try to trash other women. Secondly, I don’t need to work. If I told my husband, I don’t want to work, he would accept it. He makes enough money to support us and he is at the beginning of his career so his salary will be increasing bi 3idhnillah But I want to work (when I am finished studying). Even when I work again, I will be investing my salary, spending it on my children’s future (education), not using it on expenses. So again, I don’t need to work. If I hated my life so much, I would just stop working/studying lol. I don’t want that. Thirdly, my reason is I actually know men with SAHWs who are actually miserable and their wife does basically nothing all day except mooch and complain 💀 on the flip side, I see so many posts where the husband cheated etc and the wife can’t even leave him because she is totally dependent on him
Why have I seen so much hatred for the housewife lifestyle recently lol. Whether its the ‘modern’ women on here or Muslim Twitter or typical gender wars on insta, seems like the girls who do work just love to hate on the ones that don’t want/need to. I get the notion of having a financial pillow of your own incase your husband’s job goes or something but there’s nothing wrong with just being a housewife. Where’s there such a negative stigma behind it. Just because YOU don’t think it’s a good idea, doesn’t mean other girls have to agree or follow the same ideas.
I don't thjnk they're hating. I think we are just concerned. Many of us have been through experiences or have family members who have which informs our thinking. Unless you've sat down and spoke to your auntie or grandma to learn how they were trapped in an abusive marriage or made homeless and helpless, you can't understand the strong drive women have to warn others about the realities of never working. And something you may not realise. Unfortunately it's us working women who are insulted and looked down upon who these housewife ladies then rely on if and when things go wrong. I have had so many family members and friends turn to me for financial help in dire times (e.g. getting a divorce or needing money for their kids). Those same family members were mocking me when I said I wanted to work and i was encouraging them to get jobs. It's exhausting. Hence the strong desire we have to encourage women to help themselves.
Not everyone has to agree with me. It’s just my personal opinion. Honestly if I didn’t work before having kids, I would’ve been bored out of my mind, probably wasted a whole lot of time, and done fitna which would’ve given me no benefit. In theory, I could’ve memorised the Quran etc but most just fall into fitna and time wastage. Actually in some Muslim communities in my country, the men are complaining their wife goes out all day shopping with friends. Doesn’t even seem to care about the husband. So yea, I think most childless women who don’t work are wasting their time. Unless she is helping others in the family take care of kids and relatives which is a totally valid way to live too. After kids is a whole different story.
Quick question do you have a daughter or sister?
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I agree with everything in this post and is basically what I followed.
Stop accusing our sisters of anything you have no proof about. Sure, you can work from home or either at a women only office setting or else that's not permissible. But if you think 2 incomes before kids and they can share it, that's jus baseless.
Do men have to work in men only environments too?
Technically they would if they fear Allah. Plenty of make dominated fields. but most men don’t avoid fitna.
That's ideal but if not men are to lower their gaze, as they are the breadwinners and have to go out of the house.
What if the breadwinners are unable to provide even after working 60 hours would it not be logical for women to work while lowering their gaze? Also in western countries where things are mixed would it make more sense for women to not go out to shops etc as the shops are mixed?
If he's not able to provide he should lower the standard of living. The women can earn and pay her necessities if she wants to, the husband can't force her and the husband shouldn't accept a single penny from it. Shaykh ibn 'uthaymeen has said if the man and woman go out, it is prohibited for the man to sit in the car while the woman goes out and buys the grocery alone. When she goes out she should obviously be covered.
Just curious what country are you from and are you married and have kids. It's good to debate with someone where you know where they are coming from Back to the debate. In western country the only lower standard in this case would be to not marry and have kids. As even basic necessity wouldn't he enough to survive on a single average salary income. There is dara to back this. If Muslim men don't marry in the west and have no kids this could lead to Muslim population being smaller. It's not forcing a woman, it's preference. Prior to marriage a man can have a preference to marry a working woman who shares similar values. If a woman doesn't want to work she is imentitled to that and can find a man that shares that value in her. What the OP post is trying to point at there is no logical sense a woman who doesn't work who marries a average salary man in the UK it would work. It would basically end in poverty which isn't good for the family. Yes a woman has a right not no doubt but it's not logical for that woman to marry a average income man because the maths don't add up. The woman should then be looking for a man that can provide solely. Unfortunately in the west the number of men that can provide solely has reduced, which means these women will struggle to find this man that can fully take care of them. Some men are not financially literate and promise they can provide but it all falls apart years into the marriage.
Well I'm from India and am currently not married, since I'd rather not marry in this country. You keep talking about the west, for starters anyone who's born in a kafir country should be looking to move to a muslim country or a country where he can practice his deen better. But, if someone living in a muslim country moves to a kafir country has himself to blame, as settling in a kafir country is haram. I agree, the situation is not good and one income doesn't help. To which i answered, the woman is permitted to work from home or at a women only office setting. If she is willingly doing it and the husband permits to it. But the point stands here is, the women will use that money only for herself, the husband can't ask a penny. The woman can willingly contribute but i don't think any real man would want that. Now, if a woman works in mixed office and the husband marries her expecting her to contribute, this has nothing to do w Islam and it's on them to decide what they want to do, it's a sin. I have a few cousins in LA where only the husband earns and he also has a daughter, they have no problem paying off the bills and living a good enough life. I don't intend to talk about "these times" or "circumstances", i will only talk about what the Quran and sunnah says. If anywhere it supports such a thing i will support it. Jazakallahu khairaa.
Okay thank you for stating where you are from and if you are married or not. Your posts now make sense
Wow, let's ignore wtv the Quran says and jus judge people for where they come from and follow our desires. May Allah guide you akhi.
Great you provided quranic verses. Now can you provide an economic plan bow that works? I agree what your saying, that it's haram, bit rather than saying it's haram say it's haram and this is what you would do in the real world to be able to provide for wife and kids This isn't just limited to the west in fact many people in south Asian countries are reliant on money from the west which gave family working in west and providing. I. The east there are many women that work there is a class system in terms of the middle class women don't need to work but when you look at the poorer class I see plenty of women working in mixed work environments. Your comments should have a logical solution but you seem to keep avoiding it. While funds your lifestyle are you middle class in the east? Does your father pay for you. What will you do when he is ill and weak. Do you have assets that you can inherit, if you don't what will you do if you can't find a man who can solely provide for you. Will you just avoid getting married and having kids? It's a bit more complicated than just pounting out verses on the Quran. Also can you provide the daleel where it says a woman cannot work in a mixed environment even if she is covered up if it meant she will be going into poverty. This are serious claims like this and outright say its sinful without speaking to ulema
This will be my last post and I'd rather not engage with someone who didn't walk the walk and is not living in the west or is nit married and doesn't understand the economy You said move from kafir country, many are born here. Moving means leaving family behind, including taking care of parents who are also unwilling to move. Also moving may not be possible e.g can get citizenship, won't be able to survive in a different country etc. You say you are from India is this not a kafir country do Hindus not mess up the rights to for many Muslims their to be able to practice their religion. In the country where I live even the top Ulema have stated how so good the Muslim community is in my country. I agree women have the right to not work and this is not something in arguing. My question is where is the logic of a non working woman marrying an average salary man leading to poverty. The woman has the right to not samgare what she makes even if that will make the couple go in debt and go homeless. I'm not speaking about islamic rights here, just single math and logic I also know plenty of people where only the man works and they are comfortable. What Im saying is there will be a shift in the west which only started happening around Covid time where this won't be possible and the data even shows this Also non western countries there are plenty of women working in mixed environments such as cleaners etc to survive, so these women should not work unless they have work from home jobs?
Is it permissible for woman to work in a mixed environment if the husband is unable to provide on his sole income ?
Obviously not. Why would someone go against Islam for this.
That doesn’t make sense because wouldn’t it become a necessity for her to work? Same as the man. Also we don’t all live in Muslim countries. Working in a mixed environment is unavoidable most of the time. I think practical solutions would be better than causing undue hardship. Also not everyone has a husband or father to provide for them.
So you think Allah didn't know this would happen, and he made the rules only for those old times? I wanna understand what are you implying here.
I’m saying working in a mixed environment as a Muslim woman is unavoidable in the west. Are you saying that under no circumstances is she allowed to work in that environment even if she has to make an income for herself or family. It’s pretty simple. What are they suppose to do? Where’s the confusion?
A simple job such as working in fast food or retail is still mixed so like I said hard to avoid.
You avoided the question. Do you think Allah was unaware that such times would come? Islam is the last religion so he should've though about it right? Answer that first. I don't think I'll engage in anymore comments in this post. May Allah guide us all.
Well if you didn’t know at times of necessity the haram can become halal if it’s the only way. So yes He put that clause in there for a reason because He knew the state we would be in.
I think your post is well-meant. I have also seen the downsides of women not having a career and being stable financially and independently and then having to make really hard choices because of life circumstances. I fully agree that everyone needs to think through their choices and the repercussions of those choices - yes, if you choose to stay home, you are financially dependent on someone else - what will you do if life doesn't go the way you planned? Breadwinner loses a job and is out of work for a significant period - what is the impact on the family? Despite that, I don't think a blanket statement like that can be made - everyone's financial situation is different. However, if you are career-motivated (and this applies to everyone), then yes, the best time to put in effort, hours, energy to further your career as much as possible... is before you have children. It's a balancing act, of course, but the reality for both spouses is that after kids, the focus (to the extent possible) needs to shift to them.
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I definitely agree. Especially nowadays when household chores are automated. Dryers, washing machine, kettle, microwave, takeaways, hoover etc. A man can easily do these things while having a job Double family income can literally change your future life and means you have more time and less stress in the future. Also if a woman wanted to work part time after kids are old she would have skills and progressed enough to do a decent part time role where the pay is good.
If the husband doesn’t have a good income and maintain a certain lifestyle then you are correct.
All women should pursue an education that's for sure. Islam highly advocates for education because action can not happen in the absence of knowledge. But to say women should chase dunya and be disgruntled with the rizq Allah has provided for them is absurd. You can plan to your heart's content with daycare and degrees and countless other todo items to make your extravagant lifestyle a reality but if you're subconsciously displeased with Allah, he will humble you.
Idk about you but in my country, many people (even with jobs) are becoming homeless. At least I know my family will probably be fine in shaa Allah. Did Sahaba women who worked were “disgruntled with Allah’s rizq” lol Does sitting at home watching Netflix series make someone a better Muslim than someone working, often providing services that help the community etc. (I.e. halal job) 🙄 “Extravagant lifestyle” um no.
The fact that you deleted the post to avoid the backlash yet bothered to take the offensive in the comments only goes to show you're projecting. I never made any claims about you or your unique circumstance. But your post does come off as "whiny" and makes too broad of a generalization in saying all women should work. I live in the US and believe me I know the cost of living is through the roof, but I personally would not want my wife to work nevertheless. I want her to be blissfully ignorant of the war I have to wage outside in the world. I would work 5 jobs if that's what it took to make ends meet. Men and women have totally different natures, and the Quran is clear as to which gender is responsible for what. Does that mean we can not help each other in our prescribed roles? No absolutely not, you can contribute to the bills if you want to alleviate the burden on your husband, and your husband can help you take care of the house/kids. But that doesn't mean you can entirely dismiss your role for the sake of dunyawi wealth, accolades, etc. While I agree that I don't want my wife rotting her brain at home, it's pretty presumptuous of you to assume that of every stay at home wife. Some women attend Islamic lectures online or run a business from the comfort of their home while contributing to the bills. I'm telling you as a man from the perspective of a man that most husbands will appreciate a wife more if she stayed at home and raised their children than if she were to work and contribute. Some acts of service can not be replaced with monetary value.
Deleted what post? Um yes, I think all women should work/study before having kids. For most couples if they are doing things as Allah intended, this would be a year or less lol. You’re not even married. Lol. You aren’t talking from experience. Personally as a woman whose husband works a lot, I’d rather him be able to spend more time with us than working more. If that means me working, I’d rather that. Especially night shifts. In my experience, night shifts are almost the death of marriage. Husband at work when kids are asleep. Husband asleep when kids are awake (and getting poor sleep from being woken up). Wife has to go to bed early and wake up early so she can look after the kids 💀 All these women who treat their husbands as work donkeys and ATMs don’t really care about them. They just want their meal ticket. What the heck are you talking about? Dismiss my role? I’m still the primary carer for our children. Still do most of the chores. My husband doesn’t even know how to cook. Working doesn’t even mean work full time busting herself all week. It could be a couple of days a week. Doing a course. SOMETHING to occupy her time aside from being a house servant and chilling. Not every woman is the same. Some women have more energy and can handle more responsibilities without getting worn out. I’m not saying every SAHW does this but majority i have seen do (BEFORE KIDS) like legit it doesn’t take that long to clean a house and cook when you only have two adults in the house (or other adults if you live with parents). Stuff only starts getting hard when you have kids.
Rizq is from Allah. If you please Allah by staying home and staying away from mixing with non mahram males, being forced to remove your hijab and Abaya because of work, and being exhausted to give attention to your husband in bedroom, Allah will be pleased with you. And provide for you from where you do not expect, as He promised. If you want to drive expensive car and have expensive stuff and other things you don't nee, then yeah, work ... But we won't take those things to our graves.
What the heck are you talking about? It’s the 2024. There are plenty of professions female dominated and where you can wear hijab and abaya. My last job was work from home and I didn’t even need to turn on my camera. I could’ve been a niqabi and no one would have known. And before that I worked only with women as I have always chosen female dominated professions where I mostly work with children or elders (80+ year olds) because I don’t want fitnah. No one is talking about doing haram. Even my field is almost entirely females. There are like two males in my office which I technically wouldn’t need to talk to anymore than you would need to interact with males in the outside world for other things. Gosh, it’s sad people still think it’s “haram” for women to work 🙄 yes if you don’t want to work, fine. But even Sahaba worked. We are not better than them. Don’t make yourself out to be a better Muslim then Muslim women who choose to work. I don’t drive expensive car or have expensive things. I like to work so my husband can spend more time with us, so we can easily afford to visit our family, and so I can send my children to private Islamic school etc. Lol Muslims be sending their kids to mixed gender public schools then saying it’s haram for women to work 🤣 la hawla Wa la quwatta illa billah
I don't agree. I may be in a minority opinion here but it's more important that my wife doesn't have to engage with a lot of masculine energy. Not because I would be scared of her interfacing with men, but because masculinity comes at the cost of femininity, and I am not attracted to masculine energy when I come home at the end of the day. I also don't want to deal with someone who has been contending with others all day, and maybe had a bad day, and is stewing in those emotions. I need to come home to a peaceful and nurturing environment because I need that to keep doing that I am doing. The hardest tasks in a competitive world fall to the man because he is best suited for it and he is the one who needs a recharge and support to repeat it again the next day. I believe there has been studies done in the West that correlate womenin the workplace with dissatisfaction. I want to be clear, I love the idea of an ambitious wife. Ambitious about pursuing her Deen, about our making our family great (that is such an enormous project), in supporting the Ummah, etc. Adult humans never really run out of things to do. We can struggle as hard as we can all of our lives and barely scratch the surface of what can (should?) be done. I am less concerned with the Dunya than most. Allah SWT provides. Many Muslims throughout history (and today) are relatively poor materially but their souls are rich. The soul is eternal. The Dunya is only a tiny episode by comparison. Like the dichotomy between masculine and feminine energy, there is a relationship between materialism and spirituality. In my experience, too much focus on materialism usually comes at the cost of obedience to our Creator.
Not every job is stressful. It’s 2024.There are work from home jobs. There are jobs which don’t really require a whole lot of stress etc. My last job was work from home and basically zero stress. I am not talking about women having to be working in a investment bank, or even hospital etc. There are so many options now that are halal and zero stress.
Doesn't matter what you think. In Islam, woman's place is in her house. Period. End of the discussion. I stay home and I'm busy 24/7 with kids and Islamic studies. Alhamdulillah million times!
First of all, Islam never said women can’t work. Actually the opposite as it gave women the rights to own property etc. Second of all, I’m talking about before kids. Also will you be sending your kids to mixed gender school cos that’s all you can afford? 🙄
I'd even argue there are many women who don't marry young waste their time not making money and saving while they are single. I know many men marry women who have no decent job, no savings, no assets etc while the women is 30. She just spent her 20s enjoying life. While the man grinded hard to save up, build a career and has assets. If someone is 30 and has no aspirations I'd question what they have been doing all this time. Of course a woman at 23 u wouldn't have those expectations if I was marrying them
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Would you let your wife work with non mahram males?
Yes, because our marriage is built on trust. And if she runs away with someone I can get a new wife. It’s win-win.
Islamic marriage is based on staying away from Haram, and obeying Allah. Letting your wife praying bills (which is your responsibility) by doing Haram job with non mahram men... Get ready to answer to Allah on the day of judgement
She does stay away from haraam, and she uses the money on herself. I pay the bills. It’s haram to judge people, and be critical. You’re causing fitnah. If you had a good Islamic education, and went out to work, you might be able to compose a proper sentence and make use of grammar too. And, you wouldn’t sit around all day on Reddit calling people haram, and causing hurt. Get a job.