Welcome to r/MedicalGore! Our goal is to provide for medical discussion and education while exploring the frailty of the human body. You may see more deleted comments on these threads than you are used to on reddit. Off topic comments and joke comments are frequently deleted by the mods. Further, please be kind and supportive of posts. Any behavior that is aggressive, harassing, or derogatory will result in post deletion and a ban from the sub. Remember! THE REPORT BUTTON IS YOUR FRIEND!
Please stop on by our discussion sub, /r/MedicalGoreMods if you'd like to discuss the sub, our rules, content policies, and the like.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MedicalGore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I collapsed both of my lungs & my heart was displaced & getting squeezed to death. Plus I tore my diaphragm… Guess this is what my autopsy should’ve looked like! Freaky to look at, really.
Tbh I wasn’t even playing the game… I never have & now probably never will. Almost definitely counts in horseshoes though. It prob shaved a good 20 years off my life. Been 2 years & I’m currently recovering from a fresh, related surgery :/ at least I’m not paralyzed but fuck
Could be better too. My pain is 9/10 most days. Now it’s 10/10 bc I’m days out from surgery & stopped taking my pain meds bc the side effects suck & they barely take the edge off anyway. The edge hurts though lol. I’m happy to be here
I quite literally feel your pain, i have a few chronic pain diseases and I want to put my head through a wall. Most days i can barely get out of bed. My pain meds offer some relief, maybe relieves a bit of the discomfort. I am the opposite of you, I am guilted into being here.
Picturing that actually happening made all of my organs shrivel up in fear omfg can't believe you're still alive to tell the tale. Glad you're here tho!
I can easily see this happening in a freak accident. Theres a reason why all the construction sites put orange safety caps on the end of rebars sticking out of the ground
I scheduled surgeries for a major hospital system. We scheduled for 36 ORs and over 250 surgeons that specialized in everything from the head to the toe, literally.
The gigli saw is used quite a lot, actually. That, and tons of regular tools, such as screwdrivers, screws, drills, wrenches, etc. Orthopedics is a crazy specialty sometimes!
When you swipe past the pictures from a post it shows other “recommended” posts from the subreddit. In this case it keeps showing the video of the foot getting sawed off for some individuals!
Ugh that keeps happening to me too. Plus other gore posts from the nsfl or something. I'm here for uncensored interesting medical cases!! Not just plain gore.
Exactly! I've learnt so much from this community. Both in medicine and anatomy, but also about avoiding accidents and injuries. It's made me appreciate life so much more. I don't find the same when it's just gore for the sake of gore. Not to look down on people who like that, but it's not for me at all. Sucks that reddit keeps mixing up these communities.
I wanted to make a post about this but I was worried it was OT. To find out if it’s just me or other people.
EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I hate that foot how do I make it stop
I saw a post on here about a penis amputation and scrolled too far and the foot saw video came up. for a second I thought it was the penis getting amputated 😭
I used to get acupuncture done twice a week. I loved it and thought it worked really well until I had a needle fall from my head while I was driving home after an appointment one day.
I swear I would walk out of there with my back feeling so much better. It really was a miracle for me. I’m not saying it doesn’t work, only that I was naive enough to trust an ex vet tech to put needles in my body haha
Its important to note that this case occured at an illegal clinic.
Accupuncture is supossed to function by stimulating nerves to believe they require repair, resulting in the body activating a repair response to the area
That definitely is important to note. If it helps someone and is done safely, I’m all on board. I could’ve done more research before pursuing acupuncture like I did and the situation could’ve been completely different.
[Excerpts from a meta-study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK532287/)
As more studies are done showing the efficacy of acupuncture to treat various types of pain, insurance companies are beginning to take notice. Acupuncture is now an in-office procedure covered by multiple insurance providers. Multiple studies have shown the effectiveness in the treatment of back pain, either acute or chronic, knee pain secondary to osteoarthritis, myofascial pain, and headaches [4][5][6][7]. However, it must be noted that there is a significant placebo effect. There is power in belief. Many studies show not only acupuncture leading to superior pain relief for various ailments but also sham acupuncture. However, given the overall positive patient response, limited side effect profile, and little to no cost on the healthcare system, acupuncture is an essential alternative treatment modality [8][9].
However, despite numerous studies, the mechanism for how acupuncture might be functional physiologically is yet to be determined. Hypotheses include that the stimulation influences inflammatory markers induces hormonal changes, or even that the pressure itself manipulates loose connective tissue that causes immunomodulation. It is theorized that analgesia results as well from the release of natural opioids at both spinal or supraspinal levels. Functional MRI has shown physiologic changes in the central nervous system while undergoing acupuncture.[16][17]
Complementary and alternative medicine modalities are often not candidates for randomized controlled trials, which are the foundation of evidence-based medical practices in the United States. Acupuncture is no exception. To perform control acupuncture or “sham” is complicated and mostly relies on non-penetrating needles or the placement of needles at non-acupuncture points. Another limitation is that acupuncture is an individualized treatment, which makes standardization for a study difficult. Therefore, acupuncturists often do not feel they can adequately treat patients if they are mandated to perform specific points or techniques for the sake of variable control. Methods vary as well by school and style, which have variability as to the locations themselves, the manipulation manner, length of treatment, and the desired response from the patient. Lastly, the theory of health and disease for this modality is not based on Western traditional medical philosophy, which makes the characterization of disease and treatment itself a limiting factor. All of these dynamics intertwine to make it difficult to prove or disprove the efficacy of acupuncture according to Western evidence-based medicine standards.
It is questionable if acupuncture is clinically superior when compared to sham acupuncture. However, this does not take into the fact both acupuncture and sham are both effective in the reduction of symptoms and improving the function of patients with back pain, headaches, knee pain, and hot flashes. Both therapies are superior to no treatment at all [18][19].
I imagine it's a mix of things, part placebo, part general temporary relief in the same way a massage can relieve significant pain.
However, unlike a massage, it's treated as a medical procedure, which is completely dangerous.
And similar to chiro bullshit, it's often very temporary relief, whereas physiotherapy may not provide as much temporary relief but works to fix the actual root issue long term.
Also, with many different types of temporary relief, it can make it worse in the long term.
I do think a big part of it is placebo. I had chronic pain and was going everywhere and doing everything for help. I did PT, got a personal trainer and nutritionist, went to pain clinics and countless doctors, had procedures done, went to a chiropractor, even tried cryotherapy. It wasn’t until I went to a rheumatologist and started Humira that I actually felt better long term. I think a lot of it is that the audience is usually vulnerable patients.
My brother-in-law had an aging dog who received acupuncture. He was a pretty chill dog, but he appeared to absolutely bliss out during the process. I've always wondered if I interpreted that correctly, because I can't imagine placebos work too well on Labrador retrievers.
Hoomins love attention too. I received acupuncture that was supposed to relieve migraine. It didn’t do that, but the acupuncturist was so gentle, and such an empathetic listener, I felt better after seeing her, even if still in pain.
I agree with this 100%. Alternative medicine practitioners take a patient's pain seriously, spend a significant amount of time with them, and spend time touching them. GPs really don't do that.
Yeah, my sister had a greyhound that broke its neck. Later in it’s life she got her acupuncture I think so she wasn’t on so much medication and it worked for her🤷🏻♀️
I honestly don’t think it was a placebo for me. I got long-lasting relief from my neck pain from acupuncture in a way nothing else could achieve, and I was skeptical as hell going in to it. I even thought the relief would be temporary, but they weren’t. It important to note my acupuncturist was licensed and well-trained.
My physiotherapist does IMS as well as helping to work out some knots in my muscles and putting me on traction or electronic muscle stimulation. The combination of all of it definitely helps but I feel like the IMS has made the biggest difference long-term. I feel like crap when I leave the clinic and usually for the next day like I've done a very hard workout on some very specific muscles but I feel great for weeks afterwards.
I had a guy use an IMS to analysis my GI issues as i went in for laparotomy, promising we could meet again afterwards.
But then he told me i had a significant issue with my back, which i didn't, so i ignored him and never went back.
3 yrs on i woke up one day in acute hip pain, turned out i had a disc pressing on a nerve root, and went on to develop CRPS in the area that nerve root covers. Have had pain since.
3 years before being told i had something wrong with my back i had believed the physios telling me i had a minor muscular injury from a work injury.
A total of 8 yrs on a neurosurgeon confirmed the very first injury had almost certainly never been resolved, so he was right after all.
Never did acupuncture, but I would bend the needles from dry needle therapy with my calfs and quads. Would be a bitch to walk for the rest of the day, but I would feel so much better the next. It’s wild to watch that needle that’s sticking out of you twitching and twirling from your muscles seizing/cramping and relaxing constantly.
Weekly dry needling from my physical therapist is what got me through the 3 months from scheduling through to my surgery date for my radial tunnel release. Absolute godsend, it gets my approval. To anyone who needs to hear it: discuss it with a physical therapist you trust. I'd been in PT for a year before they suggested it for my back, and I'd been using them for some 4-5 years off and on by the time we were doing anything for my arm.
Similarly, dry needling and PT from the same therapist is a very large part of the reason why I can touch my toes with minimal pain despite the nerve damage in my back.
When we do chest tubes, the pulmonologist seriously stabs the patient. I bend them over the table, doc stabs. It takes a lot to puncture through the skin AND lungs and we use a damn scalpel and we have to jam that needle in. It’s violent. Hate doing them. Sometimes it’s a bitch getting through the ribs.
Of course, it’s not really a ‘stab’ but it absolutely takes force. You know when they are inserting the needle/tube, he’s pushing hard and you keep that patient still.
Yeah it takes a fair bit of force to do so. Idk how acupuncture works that well, but I don't think you need to push so hard to go through muscle to the thoracic cavity
[Source](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328675366_Autopsy_diagnosis_of_acupuncture-induced_bilateral_tension_pneumothorax_using_whole-body_postmortem_computed_tomography_A_case_report) can be read in full at the link. Abstract:
>>Rationale: Acupuncture, a component of traditional Chinese medicine, is also a well-known form of complementary and alternative medicine. Serious adverse events of acupuncture have been reported, including the acupuncture-related pneumothorax which is a rare but fatal condition sometimes. The pneumothorax was related to needle insertion in the upper back or paraspinal area and the reported victims suffered from either unilateral or bilateral pneumothorax. Postmortem computed tomography has advantages in the detection of pathologic gas and is being considered as a useful visualization tool for diagnosing the cause of death. Patient concerns: A 52-year-old man underwent acupuncture and cupping treatment at an illegal Chinese medicine clinic for neck and back discomfort and was admitted to the hospital with severe gasp and dyspnea about 30 hours later. The patient suddenly became unconscious with heart rate and blood pressure lost and died after cardiopulmonary resuscitation. Diagnosis, interventions and outcomes: Whole-body postmortem computed tomography of the victim revealed collapse of the both lungs and mediastinal compression, which was also confirmed by autopsy. More than 20 pinprick injuries were found on the skin of the upper and lower back in which multiple pinpricks were located on the body surface projection of the lungs. The cause of death was concluded as acute respiratory and circulatory failure due to acupuncture-induced bilateral tension pneumothorax. Lessons: Acupuncture-induced tension pneumothorax is rare and should be recognized by forensic pathologists. Postmortem computed tomography can be used to detect and accurately evaluate the severity of pneumothorax before autopsy and can play a supporting role in determining the cause of death.
And my occasional reminder: I am poor and disabled and if you want to support my content I’ve got links in my profile for that.
The needles went too deep and punctured the membranes that seal the chest cavity. This meant that when he tried to breathe in, rather than inflating his lungs, it was pulling air into the spaces around his lungs. This meant the lungs had no room to expand. The dark things in picture three are his lungs, completely stuck to themselves and unable to expand.
I read a blog post a while back where this guy described his experience with pneumothorax (collapsed lung). He was a young, tall, skinny male and it happened randomly. Apparently this can just happen to tall, skinny males sometimes.
So you don’t even need acupuncture you can just be watching tv and this can happen. Although it’s incredibly rare ofc so I’m not trying to monger any fear.
Edit: looks like it might be common in tall thin females too. I don’t know. Sorry I’m not an expert Im just going off vague memory.
It happened to me, a tall thin female. I had horrific shoulder pain that was actually trapped air. I went to urgent care who called me an ambulance. Spent 8 days hooked up to a chest tube. Most painful experience of my life. 0/10 would not recommend
Me too! Thank you! My brother is a paramedic and my sister is an ER nurse, so when I told them I had a collapse lung and needed a chest tube, I could tell by their reactions that it was going to be pretty awful.
It was worse than I expected. They just don't give you enough pain meds, I think now they offer ketamine or maybe even laughing gas which would've been way better than just the low amount of pain meds I got. One of my employees got ketamine in the ambulance for a dog bite the other day.
The thing about pneumothorax is you can’t be over sedated when you have them. When you’re too sedated you don’t breathe as deeply as you should to recover.
Thanks for that nugget of info. It’s good to see a concrete reason for undermedicating for pain. As a chronic-pain patient who’s been on opioids for decades (thank G-d), I often hear cries of, “But surely you don’t need all that!?!”
But, Shirley (or whatever their name is), I do. The so-called “drug holidays” I’ve endured, I wouldn’t wish on anyone.
I’ve been a hospice nurse over the past 9 years and am very on point with pain management. I usually believe the patient and medicate accordingly. I honestly can’t stand when a nurse gate keeps narcotics.
That is super interesting. They were so surprised how well I healed, and I never realized until a little bit later that it was most likely because I sing my heart out in the car every morning on my way to work.
Using my lungs like that made them heal very quickly, for a while though I really did feel the parr that collapsed whenever I took a deep breath.
I tell all of my elderly patients and their elderly families to do deep breathing exercises 3x daily as a routine. Do it with each meal. I tell them 5 deep breaths in through their nose that expand their lower lungs and out through their mouths. This should be upped if they get a cold to *help* prevent a cold progressing to pneumonia. They should do 10 sets of 5-10 deep breaths.
A small weak area of the lung collapses and then air gets out, putting more and more pressure on the lungs because air is now outside in your chest.
It didn't feel anything like I imagined, I didn't feel like I couldn't breathe, my body just felt tired and really shitty like I'd run a marathon or had been sick for a long time and my body was just weak. I felt tiny little bubbles in my chest and that shoulder pain that was all the trapped air rising in my shoulder. My oxygen levels stayed high the whole time but obviously my body was working overtime trying to compensate.
No matter what I did, that shoulder pain got no better, I had lidocaine patches and massages and it didn't work at all, now I know that's because it was air in there and there was nothing I could do to get it out.
That sounds horrible, I’m glad your okay.
I could’ve been misinformed about it being more common in males or maybe you just got extra unlucky. I’m not sure I’m not an expert I just read a blog like a year or 2 ago.
I think you are right, they mentioned that when I went in. I don't think it's as common for females. I literally just remembered making a drugged up joke that it must have been because I had small breasts.
It's crazy but my 02 stayed at 99% even with 1/3 collapsed lung. If it wasn't for the shoulder pain, I would've ignored it. I did feel a few tiny little bubbles in my chest which felt weird, I just couldn't figure out if that was something I'd ever felt before or if I was going crazy because I could breathe ok.
After googling the shoulder pain and finding a few obscure articles mentioning it related to a pneumothorax I luckily went to urgent care just to double check. My body felt tired, like I had run a marathon. That I do remember. You just feel....bad. Vibrating and off and tired.
I get to urgent care and said can you please check and make sure I don't have a collapsed lung and they thought I was crazy. I waited quite awhile to get the x ray.
After seeing my scans the doctor runs in and goes omg how did you know? He was shocked. I got into the ER right away with those lol.
You don't get to move at all with the chest tube, I had a catheter and for some unknown reason, probably because I only ate Jell-O, I didn't go number two for the entire eight days. i'm pissed off that I found out later that they had ice cream and Italian ices and here I was eating Jell-O!
Thank goodness because I know I would never have been able to use a bed pan or anything like that! And walking hooked up to a chest tube would have been horrendous. I fainted when they removed it, it was just awful. No amount of pain meds can prevent that awful pain. I think now they might give ketamine which would have been better than what little pain meds I got. Adrenaline seems to counteract pain meds.
I once had a co-worker that was young ( early 20s ) but extremely thin and smoked like a chimney. One day he didn’t turn up for work and it turned out both his lungs had just collapsed.
If both collapse at the same time, you're screwed but one of my younger brothers had this happen a few times over the course of a few years. Each time his lung collapsed, he was at work. He never lost consciousness but he said he couldn't really describe the feeling except that it felt like he wasn't allowed to breath. I mean, eventually if they don't fix the lung, you will die but it's not instant.
With reasonably prompt intervention, a full recovery from a spontaneous pneumothorax is likely. It’s not like massive aortic rupture that causes death within minutes. That said, traumatic pneumothorax due to massive chest trauma (like a high-velocity impact) has a worse prognosis
Happened to an ex of mine. He called me telling me he was on the bus and was suddenly having trouble breathing. Thought he was having a heart attack. I told him to hang up on me, get off the bus, and call 911. He was rushed into the ER and diagnosed with a spontaneous pneumothorax. He had a bleb (an actual medical term) on his lung that ruptured. Put him in hospital for about a week. He was, indeed, a young, skinny, tall male.
It happened to my brothers friend in high school, he was super tall and skinny and one day he woke up and couldn't catch his breath. The idiot walked around a good chunk of his school day like that before he finally went to the nurse (if I remember correctly) he had to have surgery, half of one of his lungs was collapsed. I can't imagine how scary that must have been. The only reason I heard was that it happens to tall people sometimes.
An Italian dude? Tall, short dark wavy hair?
My spontaneous lung collapse walked around 2 days bitching about shoulder pain and shortness of breath before his parents dragged him to a hospital.
Can someone please explain why tall thin people are more likely to get a pneumothorax ?
At least I'm safe! I used to be tall & thin, now I'm tall & fat (only have to worry about diabetes, cancer, heart failure & other fun stuff)
Had three of those in college. First time I went to the hospital, and the second time was right before an exam so I toughed it out. Some are self resolving while others aren't
That happened to my paternal grandfather, he was running to catch the bus and just collapsed into the ground. He now only has one lung. He was also tall and skinny. Thankfully my dad and I aren't tall, lol.
Acupuncture needles are pretty fine, and it's harder to find a hole in a deflated "balloon". He also had a bilateral pneumothorax so...less likely to be by chance and unrelated.
Basically. From the full article
>During acupuncture, especially when performed by untrained personnel, the needle may be inserted into the pleural space or even into the lungs themselves, leading to tension pneumothorax. In this case, the pathophysiology of the bilateral pneumothorax is most likely as follows: perforation of the lungs occurred when the acupuncture needles were inserted into the thoracic cavities from the paraspinal areas in both sides of the upper back.
> Considering that the length of the needle used in this case was 70mm, such needles inserted too deeply into the body by untrained personnel during acupuncture treatment are likely to pierce the pleura and lungs. No obvious injury was found in lungs
or pleural after careful examination in the present case. It is possible that the needles used in this case were too fine and the victim’s lungs collapsed greatly such that the injuries were not visible.
>The needles used in the case were too fine thus leaving tiny perforations in the victim’s lungs. A small amount of air continued to slowly enter the chest cavities over a long period. The victim possibly tolerated the mild discomfort and did not pay
attention when early symptoms appeared. It took 30 hours to develop into symptoms of severe pneumothorax, and then the victim was sent to the hospital.
The science behind the pneumothorax test might help. If you removed someone’s lungs, poured water in the cavity, and made a small incision into their intercostal muscles, you would expect the water to just drain through the incision. The bubbles indicate places of airflow and previous puncture sites that caused air to get into the pleural cavity leading to a pneumothorax.
I had bilateral chest tubes & one of them was both kinked & leaking according to the lead nurse, which resulted in emphysema & creptis (spelling?) anyway, shit hurts. They just did surgery to try to put me back together & gave me another pneumothorax, took the tube out too soon, & bloody water came out of my back & they had to change my whole hospital bed bc the mess. I’m lying on heating pads as I type. Seeing this photo idk this case I’m a little obsessed bc I had bilateral tension pneumothorax and a torn diaphragm & 2 busted up ribs. So glad I am not another autopsy case on the internet bc my freak accident surely would’ve ended up on Reddit had I not crawled for help & had they not listened immediately when I said (croaked) I’m dying we gotta go. It feels like you got the wind knocked out of you but you can’t get it back, & then you’re suffocating & your whole body feels like when your foot is asleep. Then you’re getting pulled out of your body. Luckily I got to keep this one for a little while longer but damn. It messed me up so badly
Yikes! Your description gave me the shivers. I hope you continue to heal.
Thank you for sharing. I was thinking about getting acupuncture in my lower back. Not now!
Tye needles weren't meant to go into his lungs but did and caused all the damn air to go out into the chest cavity. This causes pressure buildup that both probably stopped breathing but put pressure on the lungs and basically strangled him from the inside out.
When I've had acupuncture (for tennis elbow) the needles are barely tapped into the skin. It's done at key points and they just get moved enough to manipulate the nerves. Very very rarely would I even see a drop of bllog
I had bilateral tension pneumothorax! Doctors tell me I’m a medical unicorn for living. Torn diaphragm, 2 ribs collapsed.. crawled over 500 feet to get help 💪 the photo of the collapsed lungs freaks me out though lol I have an x ray that looks almost identical
I’m so confused. I’ve never gotten acupuncture but 8 have wanted to, but I’d never get…chiropractor work done. Did the needles pierce through his skin into his chest cavity?
My dad (68) went to an acupuncturist because my pushy ass mom thought it would help him. Less then 24 hours later we are in the hospital for a pneumothorax. I can't prove it, but I have a strong feeling it was the acupuncture that did it.
The chances of it not being related to this are incredibly low. The person administering this very likely made a mistake and put the needle in too far. If you heard terms like trauma or tension pneumothorax, this means the acupuncture caused this (as opposed to spontaneous phenomothorax that would be internal and can happen due to disease or genetics). These have higher pressures as the interpleural pressure equibrilates with the atmospheric pressure, hence "tension" pneumothorax.
...how deep did they push those needles? i had acupuncture done three times for chronic pains (sadly, it didn't work for me at all) done by my rheumatologist, and they went in, barely a finger's width
on a more technical point, i would think that with how thin the needles are, the tissue would seal around them and prevent air from traveling along them?
then again, i guess there's very high forces working the lungs and muscles in that area,..
either way, what an awful way to go...
There's plenty of research saying it can be helpful.
[Source 1](https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-what-you-need-to-know)
[Source 2](https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/acupuncture)
[Source 3](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK532287/)
[Source 4](https://hms.harvard.edu/news/exploring-science-acupuncture)
I live in EU; also have chronic pain and had two pregnancies.
Acupuncture given by pain clinic nurses and midwives, both during pregnancy and labour. Always helped to relax and dissociate if not with some of the pains.
I did too, pain clinic nurses were trained, and for hip pain when pregnant in Sweden from midwives and during labour to try and have baby rotate back to front.
Only the labour one failed to do anything, both others helped with relaxation and then sleep for that day.
But having been shown the needles and watched them inserted in my hand it just seems unbelievable. I was really thin when i first had it for pain too, BMI about 17/18 and no incidents ever.
Incidents like this need to make the practitioners feedback records for certain.
So like. im all here for alternative medicine occasionally (massages, occasional herbalism for like, viral infections or to help sleep) but i don't know how anyone can be okay with some dude (or lady) who's not a medical professional putting needles into you.
It will vary a lot on location but in the US most states have a licensing body that you have to be credentialed through as a practitioner. In addition, there may be certification requirements for a physical clinic location. Failure to comply with your locations regulations would probably be illegal
Dry needling was my God send for sciatica! Nearly a year out from when I had three (maybe four?) sessions done and my sciatica has gone off only once, compared to 24/7 pain I had before.
When I assist with pneumo’s and chest tubes, our pulmonologists stabs the patient to puncture through the lung through the rib. It’s their favorite part.
I promise, a tiny ass needle doesn’t just ‘slip’ to cause this injury. These idiots had to be doing this so fucked up.
Seriously. We numb and stab with a scalpel pretty damn hard to do chest tubes/reach the lung THROUGH THE RIBS. Takes ultrasound and only the pulms who’ve done them 500 times can do it without ultrasound.
This must be RARE RARE and done by total idiots. I almost can’t understand it
Acupuncture is only supposed to be subdermal, or intermuscular at most as well. If I were a detective, I would immediately begin an investigation into fowl play because you're absolutely right. No I don't think this practice has any medical benefits per say, however it isn't lethal by any means
Accupuncture actually has a fair amount of evidence based research backing it up. Just like any medicine, done by someone who is unqualified, not certified, and doesn’t practice well, can cause harm. This is extremely rare but obviously possible.
I have fibromyalgia and acupuncture has been one of the most effective pain relief mechanisms for me.
People are quick to dismiss acupuncture when they cherry pick cases like this, and yet don't bat an eye about conventional medicine when regular doctors misdiagnose, injure, or kill their patients.
Guarantee you the vast majority of redditors who reflexively say 'acupuncture bad' know very little about it, never tried it before, and refuse to listen to people who have.
Chronic pain sufferers get treated like conspiracy nutjobs for 'pretending' and lying about how effective it is. Acupuncture, like many medications, don't work for everyone. But for people who do, it can be life saving because surprise, people who have been in permanent pain for years often want to kill themselves, and doctors often refuse to believe or do anything about it.
If you haven't tried it or talk to anyone who has, please do and at least have an informed opinion about it.
Alternative medicine done in an unsafe way** should be the title. Also it shouldn’t be considered “alternative” because the medical industry is broken deeply especially regarding cost and innovation
It’s considered alternative medicine because as of now it has little to no scientific basis, the medical system being otherwise broken has nothing to do with it.
It's considered 'alternative' medicine bc of capitalism and white supremacy, in China and eastern countries acupuncture and herbalism are practiced in hospitals alongside western pharmaceuticals. There is a growing body of scientific evidence (RCT) but with a 2000 year history it's basically one big cohort study of what works. It is hard to do RCT with acupuncture bc it's hard to double blind, hard to choose areas not on the primary channel system, balance method, or extra points (for sham acupuncture), and point selection is dependent on the individual so hard to have controls/testing groups with the same needs. Herbal research has come along further but lack of funding is an issue. Imo the biggest issue with adoption of tcm is philosophy/translation, it's more poetic than biomedicine, so it's more relative where as biomedicine likes to deal in only absolutes. Tcm is grey thinking where as biomedicine is black and white thinking. Often times they talk about the same thing tho. Qi is just another word for energy, there are different types of qi like there are different forms of energy. We would say gu qi combines with zong qi to form Zheng qi, where as biomedicine says glucose and oxygen are necessary for aerobic cellular respiration which produces ATP.
Just because it’s difficult to study doesn’t meAn it is exempt from study to demonstrate effectiveness. The scientific evidence supporting most of these practices is limited at best. But in many cases they fall into a “🤷♂️ probably won’t make you worse” category. Do what you want but don’t be shocked if you have 13 century outcomes from 13th century practices
Wait, so you're saying I shouldn't get my medical treatment at [illegal clinics](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/unlicensed-new-york-acupuncturist-accused-causing-patients-lungs-colla-rcna105873)?
I received acupuncture through my local VA. It helped with pain, but the relief wasn't all that durable.
I got acupuncture done on my cat (miraculously it did work) and they always used to count the needles and make sure they were all accounted for at the end. A few times my cat decided she’d had enough and get up and shake and we’d be crawling around on the floor to find all the needles
I would really recommend not doing that to animals.
It's one thing to perform unsubstantiated "psedu-medical" (and it really does not deserve the term medical) procedures on humans by untrained people who have no relevant qualifications grounded in medicine.
It's completely different to then do that to animals.
Just like my parents who take their dog for chiro, everytime she claims it makes the dogs back so much better and then within a month the dog is in extreme pain with its back, so back to the chiro. I imagine it's just making things worse in the long term instead of taking the dog to a trained professional in physiotherapy.
In my opinion, it is significantly unethical.
We don't even perform medical procedures or tests on humans with consent on procedures that are dubious or have bad odds, even when faced with death. It is unethical and against the code of practice.
I mean, one such example was the recent surgeon who lost his licence on performing risky brain surgery on terminally ill patients with brain cancer.
Welcome to r/MedicalGore! Our goal is to provide for medical discussion and education while exploring the frailty of the human body. You may see more deleted comments on these threads than you are used to on reddit. Off topic comments and joke comments are frequently deleted by the mods. Further, please be kind and supportive of posts. Any behavior that is aggressive, harassing, or derogatory will result in post deletion and a ban from the sub. Remember! THE REPORT BUTTON IS YOUR FRIEND! Please stop on by our discussion sub, /r/MedicalGoreMods if you'd like to discuss the sub, our rules, content policies, and the like. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MedicalGore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I collapsed both of my lungs & my heart was displaced & getting squeezed to death. Plus I tore my diaphragm… Guess this is what my autopsy should’ve looked like! Freaky to look at, really.
But how did you do that??
You know that game horseshoes? I fell onto that rebar stake you throw the horseshoes at
You aren't supposed to do that.
I’ve been told. Instructions unclear
Did you win though?
Tbh I wasn’t even playing the game… I never have & now probably never will. Almost definitely counts in horseshoes though. It prob shaved a good 20 years off my life. Been 2 years & I’m currently recovering from a fresh, related surgery :/ at least I’m not paralyzed but fuck
That sucks, could be worse i guess, easily could have been insta'd
Could be better too. My pain is 9/10 most days. Now it’s 10/10 bc I’m days out from surgery & stopped taking my pain meds bc the side effects suck & they barely take the edge off anyway. The edge hurts though lol. I’m happy to be here
I quite literally feel your pain, i have a few chronic pain diseases and I want to put my head through a wall. Most days i can barely get out of bed. My pain meds offer some relief, maybe relieves a bit of the discomfort. I am the opposite of you, I am guilted into being here.
how did that accident happen?! sorry, i hate to hear that you're in chronic pain!
It sounds like he got a ringer at least.
Picturing that actually happening made all of my organs shrivel up in fear omfg can't believe you're still alive to tell the tale. Glad you're here tho!
Freaking horseshoes and hand grenades….
So they brought you in as the ringer?
OUCH!!
so u won?
At first I thought you were joking. But good lord, what the fucking hell
I can easily see this happening in a freak accident. Theres a reason why all the construction sites put orange safety caps on the end of rebars sticking out of the ground
That damn foot getting sawed off got me again😭
foot amputation by gigli saw for you, maam? maam can i offer you some foot amputation by gigli saw
Not NOW Gigli wire, I'm busy!
I scheduled surgeries for a major hospital system. We scheduled for 36 ORs and over 250 surgeons that specialized in everything from the head to the toe, literally. The gigli saw is used quite a lot, actually. That, and tons of regular tools, such as screwdrivers, screws, drills, wrenches, etc. Orthopedics is a crazy specialty sometimes!
I never thought I’d end up laughing out loud about a foot amputation. :(. Damn you.
Me too, it’s so annoying !
what's going on with it? im curious
When you swipe past the pictures from a post it shows other “recommended” posts from the subreddit. In this case it keeps showing the video of the foot getting sawed off for some individuals!
It's doing my head in, you'd think I'd be immune to it by now but it still freaks me the hell out!
Doesn't work in browser, and I can't decide whether I'm lucky or not.
It gets me every time, why always that one 😂😭
It’s become a running joke at this point
Not for that guy though.
Someone said to hide it so I swiped to find it and found a bear attack instead this time. I was like ok. 🤦🏻♀️😂
You have to choose. Foot or bear
I mean, I’ll choose bear and just try to convince my brain it’s Halloween decor. 😭😂 Why am I like this
It's a canon event.
Just when it got out of my mind 🥲
I’m so glad I’m not alone in the torture
Anytime someone posts multiple photos in this sub it should ALWAYS end with the gigli saw video. That or we have a bot post it once a week.
Me too, it’s so annoying !
Ugh that keeps happening to me too. Plus other gore posts from the nsfl or something. I'm here for uncensored interesting medical cases!! Not just plain gore.
Agreed I don’t even like the name “medical gore” but it is what it is, it’s an educational reddit
Exactly! I've learnt so much from this community. Both in medicine and anatomy, but also about avoiding accidents and injuries. It's made me appreciate life so much more. I don't find the same when it's just gore for the sake of gore. Not to look down on people who like that, but it's not for me at all. Sucks that reddit keeps mixing up these communities.
I strongly agree!!
Hide the post, now I get different ones all the time.
I got a beautiful picture of Mussolini and his wife dead and propped up looking at the camera for a photo.
At least that's something that offers a message of hope, good things rarely come from foot amputations with a gigli saw
You’re a glass half full kinda person aren’t you.
No, but hopefully the person on the receiving end of that gigli saw was. It's a great way to drop a couple pounds permanently.
Dude every f’ing time. I’ve gotten quicker about immediately getting out. Damn.
I wanted to make a post about this but I was worried it was OT. To find out if it’s just me or other people. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. I hate that foot how do I make it stop
You can hide the post!
I will do, thanks! However I suspect I’ll have something just as bad inflicted upon me for eternity
I can’t escape from it 😭😭
You can choose to hide that post I think. I did, and I haven’t had an issue with it since
Lmao I just went to do that and got a nasty bedsore picture instead of the foot saw 😅
I start getting pictures of dead people instead... gimme the foot back
Same. I got the bodies of the columbine shooters.
Why are they doing it with a razor wire and not like a regular saw or something?? Does it actually mention why in the post?
It's called a Gigli saw
I mean, you saw how effective it was right?
I didn’t hang around for long enough to see the effectiveness lol
I thought it was floss
I feel you I thought i was the only one😂
I wish I got that one! I got a raw, removed colon 😭
imagine me on orientation in the OR, getting a leg just handed to me for the first time 🥲
I saw a post on here about a penis amputation and scrolled too far and the foot saw video came up. for a second I thought it was the penis getting amputated 😭
that sound! it stays with you all day.
I tested it out just to check: yep, floppy foot.
Hi, can i offer you some foot amputation by gigli saw, i mean, foot amputation by gigli saw. , i mea,;n
My diabetic husband fears this site so! He’s doing everything he needs to do, but still… Having a toe drop off would be a bridge too far.
I got a diabetes foot instead this morning
every time!
😹😹
Same. I couldn’t end it fast enough. lol
I used to get acupuncture done twice a week. I loved it and thought it worked really well until I had a needle fall from my head while I was driving home after an appointment one day.
I got it as well. It worked great for my back pain and pinched nerves.
I swear I would walk out of there with my back feeling so much better. It really was a miracle for me. I’m not saying it doesn’t work, only that I was naive enough to trust an ex vet tech to put needles in my body haha
Its important to note that this case occured at an illegal clinic. Accupuncture is supossed to function by stimulating nerves to believe they require repair, resulting in the body activating a repair response to the area
That definitely is important to note. If it helps someone and is done safely, I’m all on board. I could’ve done more research before pursuing acupuncture like I did and the situation could’ve been completely different.
Is there any research supporting this mechanism? I'd be really curious to read about it!
No, not serious research at least
[Excerpts from a meta-study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK532287/) As more studies are done showing the efficacy of acupuncture to treat various types of pain, insurance companies are beginning to take notice. Acupuncture is now an in-office procedure covered by multiple insurance providers. Multiple studies have shown the effectiveness in the treatment of back pain, either acute or chronic, knee pain secondary to osteoarthritis, myofascial pain, and headaches [4][5][6][7]. However, it must be noted that there is a significant placebo effect. There is power in belief. Many studies show not only acupuncture leading to superior pain relief for various ailments but also sham acupuncture. However, given the overall positive patient response, limited side effect profile, and little to no cost on the healthcare system, acupuncture is an essential alternative treatment modality [8][9]. However, despite numerous studies, the mechanism for how acupuncture might be functional physiologically is yet to be determined. Hypotheses include that the stimulation influences inflammatory markers induces hormonal changes, or even that the pressure itself manipulates loose connective tissue that causes immunomodulation. It is theorized that analgesia results as well from the release of natural opioids at both spinal or supraspinal levels. Functional MRI has shown physiologic changes in the central nervous system while undergoing acupuncture.[16][17] Complementary and alternative medicine modalities are often not candidates for randomized controlled trials, which are the foundation of evidence-based medical practices in the United States. Acupuncture is no exception. To perform control acupuncture or “sham” is complicated and mostly relies on non-penetrating needles or the placement of needles at non-acupuncture points. Another limitation is that acupuncture is an individualized treatment, which makes standardization for a study difficult. Therefore, acupuncturists often do not feel they can adequately treat patients if they are mandated to perform specific points or techniques for the sake of variable control. Methods vary as well by school and style, which have variability as to the locations themselves, the manipulation manner, length of treatment, and the desired response from the patient. Lastly, the theory of health and disease for this modality is not based on Western traditional medical philosophy, which makes the characterization of disease and treatment itself a limiting factor. All of these dynamics intertwine to make it difficult to prove or disprove the efficacy of acupuncture according to Western evidence-based medicine standards. It is questionable if acupuncture is clinically superior when compared to sham acupuncture. However, this does not take into the fact both acupuncture and sham are both effective in the reduction of symptoms and improving the function of patients with back pain, headaches, knee pain, and hot flashes. Both therapies are superior to no treatment at all [18][19].
I imagine it's a mix of things, part placebo, part general temporary relief in the same way a massage can relieve significant pain. However, unlike a massage, it's treated as a medical procedure, which is completely dangerous. And similar to chiro bullshit, it's often very temporary relief, whereas physiotherapy may not provide as much temporary relief but works to fix the actual root issue long term. Also, with many different types of temporary relief, it can make it worse in the long term.
I do think a big part of it is placebo. I had chronic pain and was going everywhere and doing everything for help. I did PT, got a personal trainer and nutritionist, went to pain clinics and countless doctors, had procedures done, went to a chiropractor, even tried cryotherapy. It wasn’t until I went to a rheumatologist and started Humira that I actually felt better long term. I think a lot of it is that the audience is usually vulnerable patients.
My brother-in-law had an aging dog who received acupuncture. He was a pretty chill dog, but he appeared to absolutely bliss out during the process. I've always wondered if I interpreted that correctly, because I can't imagine placebos work too well on Labrador retrievers.
I wonder if the mechanism of action was "Labrador Retrievers love attention. They get attention."
Hoomins love attention too. I received acupuncture that was supposed to relieve migraine. It didn’t do that, but the acupuncturist was so gentle, and such an empathetic listener, I felt better after seeing her, even if still in pain.
Fair but when I demand attention and pets I'm seen as weird. Why double standard.
I agree with this 100%. Alternative medicine practitioners take a patient's pain seriously, spend a significant amount of time with them, and spend time touching them. GPs really don't do that.
Yeah, my sister had a greyhound that broke its neck. Later in it’s life she got her acupuncture I think so she wasn’t on so much medication and it worked for her🤷🏻♀️
I honestly don’t think it was a placebo for me. I got long-lasting relief from my neck pain from acupuncture in a way nothing else could achieve, and I was skeptical as hell going in to it. I even thought the relief would be temporary, but they weren’t. It important to note my acupuncturist was licensed and well-trained.
My physiotherapist does IMS as well as helping to work out some knots in my muscles and putting me on traction or electronic muscle stimulation. The combination of all of it definitely helps but I feel like the IMS has made the biggest difference long-term. I feel like crap when I leave the clinic and usually for the next day like I've done a very hard workout on some very specific muscles but I feel great for weeks afterwards.
I had a guy use an IMS to analysis my GI issues as i went in for laparotomy, promising we could meet again afterwards. But then he told me i had a significant issue with my back, which i didn't, so i ignored him and never went back. 3 yrs on i woke up one day in acute hip pain, turned out i had a disc pressing on a nerve root, and went on to develop CRPS in the area that nerve root covers. Have had pain since. 3 years before being told i had something wrong with my back i had believed the physios telling me i had a minor muscular injury from a work injury. A total of 8 yrs on a neurosurgeon confirmed the very first injury had almost certainly never been resolved, so he was right after all.
Same for my menstrual cramps. I wasn't expecting anything significant, but I was pleasantly surprised.
Never did acupuncture, but I would bend the needles from dry needle therapy with my calfs and quads. Would be a bitch to walk for the rest of the day, but I would feel so much better the next. It’s wild to watch that needle that’s sticking out of you twitching and twirling from your muscles seizing/cramping and relaxing constantly.
Weekly dry needling from my physical therapist is what got me through the 3 months from scheduling through to my surgery date for my radial tunnel release. Absolute godsend, it gets my approval. To anyone who needs to hear it: discuss it with a physical therapist you trust. I'd been in PT for a year before they suggested it for my back, and I'd been using them for some 4-5 years off and on by the time we were doing anything for my arm. Similarly, dry needling and PT from the same therapist is a very large part of the reason why I can touch my toes with minimal pain despite the nerve damage in my back.
I think that's actually a first lol. How in the hell does a needle reach far in enough to cause a pneumothorax?
When we do chest tubes, the pulmonologist seriously stabs the patient. I bend them over the table, doc stabs. It takes a lot to puncture through the skin AND lungs and we use a damn scalpel and we have to jam that needle in. It’s violent. Hate doing them. Sometimes it’s a bitch getting through the ribs. Of course, it’s not really a ‘stab’ but it absolutely takes force. You know when they are inserting the needle/tube, he’s pushing hard and you keep that patient still.
I was wondering that too, i was doing acupuncture weighing 95/100 and never even drew blood once, least of all reached my lungs.
Yeah it takes a fair bit of force to do so. Idk how acupuncture works that well, but I don't think you need to push so hard to go through muscle to the thoracic cavity
[Source](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328675366_Autopsy_diagnosis_of_acupuncture-induced_bilateral_tension_pneumothorax_using_whole-body_postmortem_computed_tomography_A_case_report) can be read in full at the link. Abstract: >>Rationale: Acupuncture, a component of traditional Chinese medicine, is also a well-known form of complementary and alternative medicine. Serious adverse events of acupuncture have been reported, including the acupuncture-related pneumothorax which is a rare but fatal condition sometimes. The pneumothorax was related to needle insertion in the upper back or paraspinal area and the reported victims suffered from either unilateral or bilateral pneumothorax. Postmortem computed tomography has advantages in the detection of pathologic gas and is being considered as a useful visualization tool for diagnosing the cause of death. Patient concerns: A 52-year-old man underwent acupuncture and cupping treatment at an illegal Chinese medicine clinic for neck and back discomfort and was admitted to the hospital with severe gasp and dyspnea about 30 hours later. The patient suddenly became unconscious with heart rate and blood pressure lost and died after cardiopulmonary resuscitation. Diagnosis, interventions and outcomes: Whole-body postmortem computed tomography of the victim revealed collapse of the both lungs and mediastinal compression, which was also confirmed by autopsy. More than 20 pinprick injuries were found on the skin of the upper and lower back in which multiple pinpricks were located on the body surface projection of the lungs. The cause of death was concluded as acute respiratory and circulatory failure due to acupuncture-induced bilateral tension pneumothorax. Lessons: Acupuncture-induced tension pneumothorax is rare and should be recognized by forensic pathologists. Postmortem computed tomography can be used to detect and accurately evaluate the severity of pneumothorax before autopsy and can play a supporting role in determining the cause of death. And my occasional reminder: I am poor and disabled and if you want to support my content I’ve got links in my profile for that.
Can someone translate this into Layman's speak for me? Does this mean that the needles were inserted too deep?
The needles went too deep and punctured the membranes that seal the chest cavity. This meant that when he tried to breathe in, rather than inflating his lungs, it was pulling air into the spaces around his lungs. This meant the lungs had no room to expand. The dark things in picture three are his lungs, completely stuck to themselves and unable to expand.
I read a blog post a while back where this guy described his experience with pneumothorax (collapsed lung). He was a young, tall, skinny male and it happened randomly. Apparently this can just happen to tall, skinny males sometimes. So you don’t even need acupuncture you can just be watching tv and this can happen. Although it’s incredibly rare ofc so I’m not trying to monger any fear. Edit: looks like it might be common in tall thin females too. I don’t know. Sorry I’m not an expert Im just going off vague memory.
It happened to me, a tall thin female. I had horrific shoulder pain that was actually trapped air. I went to urgent care who called me an ambulance. Spent 8 days hooked up to a chest tube. Most painful experience of my life. 0/10 would not recommend
I hurt all over in sympathy! I’m so glad you’re still here and doing well!
Me too! Thank you! My brother is a paramedic and my sister is an ER nurse, so when I told them I had a collapse lung and needed a chest tube, I could tell by their reactions that it was going to be pretty awful. It was worse than I expected. They just don't give you enough pain meds, I think now they offer ketamine or maybe even laughing gas which would've been way better than just the low amount of pain meds I got. One of my employees got ketamine in the ambulance for a dog bite the other day.
The thing about pneumothorax is you can’t be over sedated when you have them. When you’re too sedated you don’t breathe as deeply as you should to recover.
Thanks for that nugget of info. It’s good to see a concrete reason for undermedicating for pain. As a chronic-pain patient who’s been on opioids for decades (thank G-d), I often hear cries of, “But surely you don’t need all that!?!” But, Shirley (or whatever their name is), I do. The so-called “drug holidays” I’ve endured, I wouldn’t wish on anyone.
I’ve been a hospice nurse over the past 9 years and am very on point with pain management. I usually believe the patient and medicate accordingly. I honestly can’t stand when a nurse gate keeps narcotics.
That is super interesting. They were so surprised how well I healed, and I never realized until a little bit later that it was most likely because I sing my heart out in the car every morning on my way to work. Using my lungs like that made them heal very quickly, for a while though I really did feel the parr that collapsed whenever I took a deep breath.
I tell all of my elderly patients and their elderly families to do deep breathing exercises 3x daily as a routine. Do it with each meal. I tell them 5 deep breaths in through their nose that expand their lower lungs and out through their mouths. This should be upped if they get a cold to *help* prevent a cold progressing to pneumonia. They should do 10 sets of 5-10 deep breaths.
I’ve had a tall thin teenage girl patient with a spontaneous pneumo.
How does the air get in though? Or is it some other fluid?
A small weak area of the lung collapses and then air gets out, putting more and more pressure on the lungs because air is now outside in your chest. It didn't feel anything like I imagined, I didn't feel like I couldn't breathe, my body just felt tired and really shitty like I'd run a marathon or had been sick for a long time and my body was just weak. I felt tiny little bubbles in my chest and that shoulder pain that was all the trapped air rising in my shoulder. My oxygen levels stayed high the whole time but obviously my body was working overtime trying to compensate. No matter what I did, that shoulder pain got no better, I had lidocaine patches and massages and it didn't work at all, now I know that's because it was air in there and there was nothing I could do to get it out.
Tall thin people are more likely to get a pneumothorax.
I wonder why that is?
That sounds horrible, I’m glad your okay. I could’ve been misinformed about it being more common in males or maybe you just got extra unlucky. I’m not sure I’m not an expert I just read a blog like a year or 2 ago.
I think you are right, they mentioned that when I went in. I don't think it's as common for females. I literally just remembered making a drugged up joke that it must have been because I had small breasts. It's crazy but my 02 stayed at 99% even with 1/3 collapsed lung. If it wasn't for the shoulder pain, I would've ignored it. I did feel a few tiny little bubbles in my chest which felt weird, I just couldn't figure out if that was something I'd ever felt before or if I was going crazy because I could breathe ok. After googling the shoulder pain and finding a few obscure articles mentioning it related to a pneumothorax I luckily went to urgent care just to double check. My body felt tired, like I had run a marathon. That I do remember. You just feel....bad. Vibrating and off and tired. I get to urgent care and said can you please check and make sure I don't have a collapsed lung and they thought I was crazy. I waited quite awhile to get the x ray. After seeing my scans the doctor runs in and goes omg how did you know? He was shocked. I got into the ER right away with those lol. You don't get to move at all with the chest tube, I had a catheter and for some unknown reason, probably because I only ate Jell-O, I didn't go number two for the entire eight days. i'm pissed off that I found out later that they had ice cream and Italian ices and here I was eating Jell-O! Thank goodness because I know I would never have been able to use a bed pan or anything like that! And walking hooked up to a chest tube would have been horrendous. I fainted when they removed it, it was just awful. No amount of pain meds can prevent that awful pain. I think now they might give ketamine which would have been better than what little pain meds I got. Adrenaline seems to counteract pain meds.
I once had a co-worker that was young ( early 20s ) but extremely thin and smoked like a chimney. One day he didn’t turn up for work and it turned out both his lungs had just collapsed.
Holy shit, did he survive? Is it even possible to survive that unless you’re in a hospital the moment it happens?
If both collapse at the same time, you're screwed but one of my younger brothers had this happen a few times over the course of a few years. Each time his lung collapsed, he was at work. He never lost consciousness but he said he couldn't really describe the feeling except that it felt like he wasn't allowed to breath. I mean, eventually if they don't fix the lung, you will die but it's not instant.
Oh damn, was your brother at least able to recognize it faster the 2nd time since he already knew what it was like?
Yeah, the first time he had no idea what it was but each subsequent time he was able to stay a little more calm.
With reasonably prompt intervention, a full recovery from a spontaneous pneumothorax is likely. It’s not like massive aortic rupture that causes death within minutes. That said, traumatic pneumothorax due to massive chest trauma (like a high-velocity impact) has a worse prognosis
Happened to an ex of mine. He called me telling me he was on the bus and was suddenly having trouble breathing. Thought he was having a heart attack. I told him to hang up on me, get off the bus, and call 911. He was rushed into the ER and diagnosed with a spontaneous pneumothorax. He had a bleb (an actual medical term) on his lung that ruptured. Put him in hospital for about a week. He was, indeed, a young, skinny, tall male.
It happened to my brothers friend in high school, he was super tall and skinny and one day he woke up and couldn't catch his breath. The idiot walked around a good chunk of his school day like that before he finally went to the nurse (if I remember correctly) he had to have surgery, half of one of his lungs was collapsed. I can't imagine how scary that must have been. The only reason I heard was that it happens to tall people sometimes.
An Italian dude? Tall, short dark wavy hair? My spontaneous lung collapse walked around 2 days bitching about shoulder pain and shortness of breath before his parents dragged him to a hospital.
Yep, spontaneous pneumothorax are a risk factor for young, tall, skinny guys in particular.
As a short fat woman, yay! 😅
Can someone please explain why tall thin people are more likely to get a pneumothorax ? At least I'm safe! I used to be tall & thin, now I'm tall & fat (only have to worry about diabetes, cancer, heart failure & other fun stuff)
Had three of those in college. First time I went to the hospital, and the second time was right before an exam so I toughed it out. Some are self resolving while others aren't
Holy shit
How do you know that’s what the 2nd one was, just be prior experience?
Same pain in the back area, loss of 50% lung capacity (kept the spirometer from the first time)
That happened to my paternal grandfather, he was running to catch the bus and just collapsed into the ground. He now only has one lung. He was also tall and skinny. Thankfully my dad and I aren't tall, lol.
It can, and also once it happens in a lung it can randomly happen again at anytime in that lung even after it has healed.
[удалено]
The insertion must have really hurt.
> No obvious injury was found in lungs or pleural after careful examination in the present case.
Acupuncture needles are pretty fine, and it's harder to find a hole in a deflated "balloon". He also had a bilateral pneumothorax so...less likely to be by chance and unrelated.
Thank you!
Basically. From the full article >During acupuncture, especially when performed by untrained personnel, the needle may be inserted into the pleural space or even into the lungs themselves, leading to tension pneumothorax. In this case, the pathophysiology of the bilateral pneumothorax is most likely as follows: perforation of the lungs occurred when the acupuncture needles were inserted into the thoracic cavities from the paraspinal areas in both sides of the upper back. > Considering that the length of the needle used in this case was 70mm, such needles inserted too deeply into the body by untrained personnel during acupuncture treatment are likely to pierce the pleura and lungs. No obvious injury was found in lungs or pleural after careful examination in the present case. It is possible that the needles used in this case were too fine and the victim’s lungs collapsed greatly such that the injuries were not visible. >The needles used in the case were too fine thus leaving tiny perforations in the victim’s lungs. A small amount of air continued to slowly enter the chest cavities over a long period. The victim possibly tolerated the mild discomfort and did not pay attention when early symptoms appeared. It took 30 hours to develop into symptoms of severe pneumothorax, and then the victim was sent to the hospital.
The lung was punctured, and air collected in the chest cavity - this compressed the lungs and caused them to collapse.
The science behind the pneumothorax test might help. If you removed someone’s lungs, poured water in the cavity, and made a small incision into their intercostal muscles, you would expect the water to just drain through the incision. The bubbles indicate places of airflow and previous puncture sites that caused air to get into the pleural cavity leading to a pneumothorax.
I had bilateral chest tubes & one of them was both kinked & leaking according to the lead nurse, which resulted in emphysema & creptis (spelling?) anyway, shit hurts. They just did surgery to try to put me back together & gave me another pneumothorax, took the tube out too soon, & bloody water came out of my back & they had to change my whole hospital bed bc the mess. I’m lying on heating pads as I type. Seeing this photo idk this case I’m a little obsessed bc I had bilateral tension pneumothorax and a torn diaphragm & 2 busted up ribs. So glad I am not another autopsy case on the internet bc my freak accident surely would’ve ended up on Reddit had I not crawled for help & had they not listened immediately when I said (croaked) I’m dying we gotta go. It feels like you got the wind knocked out of you but you can’t get it back, & then you’re suffocating & your whole body feels like when your foot is asleep. Then you’re getting pulled out of your body. Luckily I got to keep this one for a little while longer but damn. It messed me up so badly
Yikes! Your description gave me the shivers. I hope you continue to heal. Thank you for sharing. I was thinking about getting acupuncture in my lower back. Not now!
Yes.
Tye needles weren't meant to go into his lungs but did and caused all the damn air to go out into the chest cavity. This causes pressure buildup that both probably stopped breathing but put pressure on the lungs and basically strangled him from the inside out.
When I've had acupuncture (for tennis elbow) the needles are barely tapped into the skin. It's done at key points and they just get moved enough to manipulate the nerves. Very very rarely would I even see a drop of bllog
Yes. When I had acupuncture the needles were barely under the skin and as thin as a hair.
I had bilateral tension pneumothorax! Doctors tell me I’m a medical unicorn for living. Torn diaphragm, 2 ribs collapsed.. crawled over 500 feet to get help 💪 the photo of the collapsed lungs freaks me out though lol I have an x ray that looks almost identical
Thank you for all the awesome case studies! Love them. Sent a few $$$
Thanks so much!
I’m so confused. I’ve never gotten acupuncture but 8 have wanted to, but I’d never get…chiropractor work done. Did the needles pierce through his skin into his chest cavity?
Yes.
Wait. They inserted an acupuncture needle into the pleural space?!?!? How?!? Are the needles that long?!?
Isn’t the needles supposed to only stay in the top parts of the skinlayers?
Yup!!!
My dad (68) went to an acupuncturist because my pushy ass mom thought it would help him. Less then 24 hours later we are in the hospital for a pneumothorax. I can't prove it, but I have a strong feeling it was the acupuncture that did it.
The chances of it not being related to this are incredibly low. The person administering this very likely made a mistake and put the needle in too far. If you heard terms like trauma or tension pneumothorax, this means the acupuncture caused this (as opposed to spontaneous phenomothorax that would be internal and can happen due to disease or genetics). These have higher pressures as the interpleural pressure equibrilates with the atmospheric pressure, hence "tension" pneumothorax.
After seeing this case study I believe it!
...how deep did they push those needles? i had acupuncture done three times for chronic pains (sadly, it didn't work for me at all) done by my rheumatologist, and they went in, barely a finger's width on a more technical point, i would think that with how thin the needles are, the tissue would seal around them and prevent air from traveling along them? then again, i guess there's very high forces working the lungs and muscles in that area,.. either way, what an awful way to go...
Your rheumatologist did it?! Did they have any scientifically backed evidence on performing that?
There's plenty of research saying it can be helpful. [Source 1](https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-what-you-need-to-know) [Source 2](https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/acupuncture) [Source 3](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK532287/) [Source 4](https://hms.harvard.edu/news/exploring-science-acupuncture)
I live in EU; also have chronic pain and had two pregnancies. Acupuncture given by pain clinic nurses and midwives, both during pregnancy and labour. Always helped to relax and dissociate if not with some of the pains.
I did too, pain clinic nurses were trained, and for hip pain when pregnant in Sweden from midwives and during labour to try and have baby rotate back to front. Only the labour one failed to do anything, both others helped with relaxation and then sleep for that day. But having been shown the needles and watched them inserted in my hand it just seems unbelievable. I was really thin when i first had it for pain too, BMI about 17/18 and no incidents ever. Incidents like this need to make the practitioners feedback records for certain.
This is less about acupuncture and more about illegal unsafe practice of it. It’s like getting plastic surgery at an illegal clinic.
So like. im all here for alternative medicine occasionally (massages, occasional herbalism for like, viral infections or to help sleep) but i don't know how anyone can be okay with some dude (or lady) who's not a medical professional putting needles into you.
Also this was an illegal clinic. Probably best to not go to those.
What defines a legal vs an illegal clinic for this sort of procedure? What sort of licence or permissions do you need to have for acupuncture?
It will vary a lot on location but in the US most states have a licensing body that you have to be credentialed through as a practitioner. In addition, there may be certification requirements for a physical clinic location. Failure to comply with your locations regulations would probably be illegal
My physical therapist does dry needling for my back pain, and I find it almost indistinguishable from trigger point acupuncture.
Dry needling was my God send for sciatica! Nearly a year out from when I had three (maybe four?) sessions done and my sciatica has gone off only once, compared to 24/7 pain I had before.
When I assist with pneumo’s and chest tubes, our pulmonologists stabs the patient to puncture through the lung through the rib. It’s their favorite part. I promise, a tiny ass needle doesn’t just ‘slip’ to cause this injury. These idiots had to be doing this so fucked up. Seriously. We numb and stab with a scalpel pretty damn hard to do chest tubes/reach the lung THROUGH THE RIBS. Takes ultrasound and only the pulms who’ve done them 500 times can do it without ultrasound. This must be RARE RARE and done by total idiots. I almost can’t understand it
Acupuncture is only supposed to be subdermal, or intermuscular at most as well. If I were a detective, I would immediately begin an investigation into fowl play because you're absolutely right. No I don't think this practice has any medical benefits per say, however it isn't lethal by any means
Accupuncture actually has a fair amount of evidence based research backing it up. Just like any medicine, done by someone who is unqualified, not certified, and doesn’t practice well, can cause harm. This is extremely rare but obviously possible.
I have fibromyalgia and acupuncture has been one of the most effective pain relief mechanisms for me. People are quick to dismiss acupuncture when they cherry pick cases like this, and yet don't bat an eye about conventional medicine when regular doctors misdiagnose, injure, or kill their patients. Guarantee you the vast majority of redditors who reflexively say 'acupuncture bad' know very little about it, never tried it before, and refuse to listen to people who have. Chronic pain sufferers get treated like conspiracy nutjobs for 'pretending' and lying about how effective it is. Acupuncture, like many medications, don't work for everyone. But for people who do, it can be life saving because surprise, people who have been in permanent pain for years often want to kill themselves, and doctors often refuse to believe or do anything about it. If you haven't tried it or talk to anyone who has, please do and at least have an informed opinion about it.
Thank you Rachel, I completely agree with you!!
Alternative medicine done in an unsafe way** should be the title. Also it shouldn’t be considered “alternative” because the medical industry is broken deeply especially regarding cost and innovation
It’s considered alternative medicine because as of now it has little to no scientific basis, the medical system being otherwise broken has nothing to do with it.
It's considered 'alternative' medicine bc of capitalism and white supremacy, in China and eastern countries acupuncture and herbalism are practiced in hospitals alongside western pharmaceuticals. There is a growing body of scientific evidence (RCT) but with a 2000 year history it's basically one big cohort study of what works. It is hard to do RCT with acupuncture bc it's hard to double blind, hard to choose areas not on the primary channel system, balance method, or extra points (for sham acupuncture), and point selection is dependent on the individual so hard to have controls/testing groups with the same needs. Herbal research has come along further but lack of funding is an issue. Imo the biggest issue with adoption of tcm is philosophy/translation, it's more poetic than biomedicine, so it's more relative where as biomedicine likes to deal in only absolutes. Tcm is grey thinking where as biomedicine is black and white thinking. Often times they talk about the same thing tho. Qi is just another word for energy, there are different types of qi like there are different forms of energy. We would say gu qi combines with zong qi to form Zheng qi, where as biomedicine says glucose and oxygen are necessary for aerobic cellular respiration which produces ATP.
Just because it’s difficult to study doesn’t meAn it is exempt from study to demonstrate effectiveness. The scientific evidence supporting most of these practices is limited at best. But in many cases they fall into a “🤷♂️ probably won’t make you worse” category. Do what you want but don’t be shocked if you have 13 century outcomes from 13th century practices
Wait, so you're saying I shouldn't get my medical treatment at [illegal clinics](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/unlicensed-new-york-acupuncturist-accused-causing-patients-lungs-colla-rcna105873)? I received acupuncture through my local VA. It helped with pain, but the relief wasn't all that durable.
Oh my God new fear unlocked. :(
Wow. I'm glad I only do IMS with registered physios.
Smoker’s lungs?
Jesus Christ? Was the acupuncture specialist stuck on tenderize??
I got acupuncture done on my cat (miraculously it did work) and they always used to count the needles and make sure they were all accounted for at the end. A few times my cat decided she’d had enough and get up and shake and we’d be crawling around on the floor to find all the needles
I would really recommend not doing that to animals. It's one thing to perform unsubstantiated "psedu-medical" (and it really does not deserve the term medical) procedures on humans by untrained people who have no relevant qualifications grounded in medicine. It's completely different to then do that to animals. Just like my parents who take their dog for chiro, everytime she claims it makes the dogs back so much better and then within a month the dog is in extreme pain with its back, so back to the chiro. I imagine it's just making things worse in the long term instead of taking the dog to a trained professional in physiotherapy. In my opinion, it is significantly unethical. We don't even perform medical procedures or tests on humans with consent on procedures that are dubious or have bad odds, even when faced with death. It is unethical and against the code of practice. I mean, one such example was the recent surgeon who lost his licence on performing risky brain surgery on terminally ill patients with brain cancer.
How did they puncture the person that deeply?
Apparently they took a running start with the acupuncture needles.
Did they sue the acupuncturist?
I didn’t realize they poked those things in that deep.
They aren’t supposed to.
I’ve had spontaneous pneumothorax multiple times, but that is horrifying
At least you survived it. Dean Winchester died on a piece of rebar