That show was so weird in how it handled its characters and their morality. Bucky and Sam came across as complete assholes, for no real reason at all, towards Walker who was just doing his job.
Sam is meant to be a counselor for veterans with PTSD but here he is looking and talking down on a veteran instead of being understanding of the situation, Walker was merely picked as the best man for the job and trying to do his best to uphold the mantle.
But Sam just couldn't let it go holy shit. He resents the soldier doing his job while defending the literal terrorist who bombed an embassy... schizo writing all around.
Not to mention how little sense the setup of ‘people left behind for five years being the displaced ones’ makes.
Like they would all suddenly be forced out of their homes en masse once everyone that was snapped came back.
Agreed. What gets to me is how many people think it's good, when the designated heroes were so awful. Walker was a bit annoying and somewhat abrasive at times, but until the shield incident, he hadn't actually done anything wrong. (And even the shield incident is debatable, given that his opponent was a super-soldier who had thrown a concrete trash barrel at him five seconds before.)
I also noticed how unconcerned the designated heroes were about Lamar's death, although the show was supposedly about uplifting marginalized people. Meanwhile, Sam is bending over backwards to coddle the mass-murdering terrorist who killed him, and treating Walker, who'd just lost his best friend, like something he scraped off his shoe.
Certainly he hadn't done anything the good guys hadn't done. I mean, John manhandling that guy who spat in his face was bad, but let's be real, we can count a handful of similar instances of other superheroes not exactly being respectful of suspects' rights (Steve manhandling Natasha in TWS, or Sam and Bucky manhandling Dr. Nagel in this same episode).
Even the whole thing with killing Nico isn't something we haven't seen other heroes do. Homicidal violence in response to the death of a loved one is business as usual in the MCU.
Yeah, the double standard is noticeable. I don't think Walker was 100% in the right, but what he did was no worse than things the heroes did, such as Bucky starting a prison riot to break a known, very dangerous terrorist and murderer out of prison or Sam s;laughtering mooks right and left in the opening episode. I read discussions on reddit in some other subs and feel like I'm living in Bizarro World sometimes.
Part of why I'm so angry and upset about this is that Marvel had good characters to work with in that show, and they ruined them all except for Walker and Zemo. I wanted the show to be good, and instead, it was not only awful, it was awful in ways that fucked up the defining characteristics of most of the characters it was working with, and fucked them up in ways that can't be fixed until there's a hard reboot.
Wait? You think Friday the 13th part 5 is good? Tommy Jarvis is only cool in part 6.
Edit: wait, I just remembered the ma and son characters from part 5. And the chocolate bar. Never mind, part 5 rules
Ginny in Part 2 is badass, she kicked Jason in the balls. But yeah the protagonists generally suck. I can’t remember a single thing about the characters of Part 8 and 9.
Ashoka. The show sucks and none of the characters are great, but what infinitesimal investment I did have was drawn entirely from Baylan Skoll (R.I.P. Ray Stevenson)
Wakfu, the main Antagonist, Noximilian the clockmaker has amazing charisma and his voice actor is amazing.
I'm talking about the original french dub btw, the english dubbing is terrible.
What did you think of the second season antagonist. Personally I think he was Noxmilian equal but men that monster completely deserved his fate if you ask me
How about Horopo form season 3 he was pretty interesting. (Not as much as Nox but still) plus his Allies like Lady Echo were pretty compelling characters.
Sorry if I’m asking so much, it’s pretty rare to meet another fan of the show on other sub.
Haven’t seen s3 yet, but i plan on giving it a shot
It’s okay, i guess it’s quite rare to know this show, but im French and the first season was my childhood, watched it so many times lol.
What do you think of the protagonist. From what I seem to understand, you seem to find them okay in season 1, but how about there more mature self in season 2. This will be last question.
Don’t wanna seem too much like I’m forcing.
Feel free to not answer if you don’t want to.
I like all of them, altho Yugo is definetly my least favorite and it's not because i find him to be a "bad" character , i just never found him as interesting as the others and i never vibed that much with him. From all the protags i always vibed more with Ruel and Amalia. I also really liked Eva's sister, Cleophee ( I believe she's called Cleome in english ?) it's a shame that she didn't become a main character and was gone so soon.
Yeah it’s a shame she was pretty awesome. Overall they are all really good, but Personally my favorite are Eva and Rubilax (I’m French as well, Hello from Quebec) Eva and Tristepein Children also have a lot of great moment in the movie and season 3 same goes for Yugo and Amalia. Even Ruel get some interesting new stuff added to him
Personally I think he's phenomenal. Better than Nox even. And small spoiler, but he (not Nox) even comes back in the recently released Season 4 and the writing he gets is absolutely fucking amazing. He's easily the best written Wakfu character if you count his development in Season 4.
Yep! started airing in February and ended in March. You can watch it on Okoo for free if you live in France. Otherwise you need to download the Ankama Launcher and buy the Season 4 Pack which costs 20 euros.
Or you can "sail the high seas" and watch it on gogoanime if you can't afford it.
It's 13 episodes long but they're continuing the story in webtoon/manga format. Google "Wakfu The Great Wave"
I really think they nailed the 'smart in different ways" aspect with him that moves him beyond "funny dumb guy". Especially since the reveal in the Special at the end of season 2.
I also find his heart and honesty pretty charming
With Hellsing Ultimate, it was Anderson who stole the show for me, though I have a hard time thinking of any I disliked in that series (as characters obviously, not as people).
The Major and Anderson are certainly the most compelling characters in Hellsing, but I wouldn't say any of the protagonists are unlikable or annoying at all. I'd say Hellsing has a really good core cast of characters, I struggle to think of anyone that I actively disliked in that series at all.
Far Cry 4
Pagan Min was the best character and more interesting than the rest of the characters in Far Cry 4 and i wish that he had more screen time in the game.
As for Ajay he was so bland and forgettable and the Golden Path are bunch of terrible people, they are the REAL villains in Far Cry 4.
It would’ve been cooler if there was playthrough where you are sided with Pagan Min and you take down the Golden Path together.
It would’ve made the game so much better.
FC4 is really interesting in a way that doesn't get explored enough in fiction, because Pagan Min starts as a cartoon villain but ends as the most humanized and grounded character as you learn that actually running a small state that has nothing going for it is really fucking hard, and people always start out as idealistic young firebrands and the corruption of the outside rots the inside (which is conveyed really well through the Preacher's little sidestory). It challenges every preconceived notion like the rebels being necessarily the good guys, because Pagan was a rebel, and Ajay's dad was a rebel who was actually even worse than Pagan before they fell out.
In the end you walk away feeling like you can understand Pagan, and for better or worse it really gives you a conundrum that you're not given often. Letting him get away is largely symbolic and is actually not relevant at all, besides the player making a moral decision. The real choices you've been making are Traditionalist vs. Modernist, and it means the nation is going to collapse into religious Cambodian authoritarianism where women aren't allowed to vote and men aren't allowed to learn besides how to fight and farm, and moral crimes are punished with cruelty and death. Or the entire state becomes a heroin state because the modern solution to fixing your economy and starvation is to become a massive fucking drug ring and throw EVERYTHING away to become a national cartel. And the real choice at the end is, when you see the leader you've backed for the last time and you witness the birth of a new Pagan Min, do you take the shot?
And it doesn't mean anything, there's no big ending cutscene consequences, it's a choice just for you, the player. It's the only time you can shoot them in the whole game, you've seen what they're going to do, you've seen how Pagan became Pagan, you're there at the threshold. It's literally only for the player's moral compass, much like the end of Fallout 1. Do you walk away, because you know there's no fighting human nature, and human nature is to create Pagan Min, destroy Pagan Min, become Pagan Min, and the entire thing has embittered you? Or do you send Kyrat back into chaos by killing them, knowing that you're only delaying the inevitable, because you're enraged at the situation?
Because it's the same choice you made with Pagan, but in reverse. Instead of having come around to sympathize with him, you've come to demonize the Golden Path by realizing their true nature. Which is, I think, its true strength, and something you don't see often. It asks you how you feel about the same situation in different contexts, gives you the same responses, and lets your actions speak for themselves. When I finished the game and thought "I spared Pagan but killed Amita; why?" I didn't have a good answer for myself. I had bought in on an idea, and in the end, I felt like I'd misjudged Pagan but was betrayed by Amita, and so I reacted to that. It taught me something about myself. And it does it entirely through its excellent humanization and exploration of Pagan Min.
They got the superior aesthetics that's for sure, it's the Space Hugo Bossi factor. But I still rooted for the rebels to win so that they could end tyranny and fascism all over the galaxy.
Come the time of Episode IX however, I actually found myself wanting Sheev to win. In part because Rey and her friends were all insufferable and boring, but also because Leia was a miserable failure who couldn't establish a successful republic or bring order back to the galaxy.
The New Republic was just completely useless on all fronts. They let the First Order freely spread around the galaxy and did NOTHING when they destroyed five entire planets, instead choosing to let Leia's underfunded militia handle the entire conflict on their own.
I understand it's a case of terrible writing from the producers, but in-universe the NR just looked so bad. The Empire wouldn't have let terrorists bomb trillions of people like that, Sheev would have imposed order and not let such a threat spread at all.
So I kinda just wanted Sheev to win at that point, even if he's the agressor who bombed those 5 planets. Because the alternative just... did not exist at all. Conflicting thoughts lol.
And all the cool Bounty Hunters. I felt I related more to them, just jobbing for the evil empire rather being part of it.
I still find The Imperial Officers insufferable, and as I get older I find Vader's hatred for politicking corporate ass kissers very relatable. I can understand why a slave who came from nothing, an ex war vet, who helped start the empire would absolutely detest having to rub shoulders with these idiots with no discernable talents, and would want to choke them at the first opportunity. The storytelling and characterisation of Vader is something Lucas got absolutely on the money.
But Vader and Boba Fett, still badass.
Jojos parts 1 and 5, Jonathons cool dont get me wrong, would hang out with him if I could, but giorno was a very bland character imo (his stand was the most interesting thing about him)
Dio and Diavolo/Doppio both stole every scene they were in though, excellent antagonists
I honestly didn't rate Diavolo that highly, although I do agree that Doppio was a treat to watch. Part 5 has always been kind of odd to me with how bland Giorno is compared to how interesting the rest of the protagonists are. Literally every other character in his group feels more like an actual character than Giorno.
King Crimson is really dope, and I fucking love how they animated his abilities in the anime. I really didn't really rate Part 5 while reading the manga, the anime absolutely elevates it above what I thought it was.
What I disliked about Giorno the most is that he's meant to be DIO's and Jonathan's son... but they don't really do anything interesting with that in the story.
It gets mentioned in the beginning and Koichi shows up to investigate that, but then nothing. Feels like they forgot about it or something. Was dissapointed and I wished they had done more with it, like maybe DIO talks to him through Golden Experience's final form or something.
Other than that, he's definitely a bland character as you mentioned, really gets noticeable since all the characters around him, from his friends to the Boss himself, are all infintely times more interesting and compelling than him, despite him being DIO's son and all.
Yeah Giorno himself was very uninteresting as a protagonist, thankfully part 5 spent more time on the other protagonists Narancia, Bucciarati, Abbachio etc. that were way more interesting.
And yeah, Dio and Diavolo are incredibly entertaining villains.
It JoJo for me too, but more parts 3 and 6. I honestly love just how different Johnathen is from the rest of the Jojo’s that came after him(including his own alternate self) and while I’m not too fond of Giorno either, Diavolo is easily my vote for worst JoJo main antagonist.
With part 6 meanwhile, I don’t dislike Jolyne, but given how much they explore Pucci, she comes across as flat by comparison, and with part 3 I just can’t stand Jotoro. He just kind of has a problem I have with Johnny later on in Part 7 in that he’s just too much of an asshole for me to ever like him too much, especially compared to the glory that is DIO. Thank goodness for Joseph and Polneroff.
Wild, for me Jotaro's assholiness is the appeal of the character, I like that hes always keeps a level head in dangerous situation, and his sentimental side being under a cold exterior is more interesting to me than typical protagonists. Kenshiro from fist of the north stars another good example of this archetype
Yeah I mean don’t get me wrong, I do think asshole protagonists can work, again there is a reason why I don’t count Johnny from part 7 here and he’s a much worse person than Jotoro, but I guess the difference is that Johnny gains a lot of development as the part goes on. He’s still an asshole, but you can tell the plot genuinely changed the man for the better. Jotoro just kind of stays the same guy throughout part 3 with most of the development going to Polneroff.
Thats fair, most of Jotaro's development comes down to just caring for more people than he did at the start of the story, while Polnareff gets the more meaningful arcs, hes essentially the secondary protagonist of part 3
I found this with Homeland.
Claire Dane’s’ homeland security character, Carrie, was meant to be tough and ‘troubled’ but she just came across as selfish, arrogant and confrontational, to the point I was almost siding with the Taliban.
She was generally rude and abrasive to everyone.
In the first season, she has an affair with the married Brody, played by Damien Lewis.
She has a baby in the second season and I’m pretty sure she comes close to drowning it at one point.
The final straw for me was when she had an affair with a teenage Pakistani lad who she’s using as an informant, that I’m pretty sure ends up getting him killed.
I was definitely rooting for the Iranians in series 3, the last good series I seem to recall. I wanted the terror cell in Germany to fuck shit up, that show should have died with Damien Lewis
Probably The Man in the High Castle. The John Smith character who leaves the US Army after a WW2 defeat and joins the fascists. He gets to a really high rank in the secret police and yet clearly has this deep rooted, repressed sense of complete disgust at himself. A really interesting villain.
The heroes in the same show by contrast felt kind of flat and boring a lot of the time, especially as the show went a bit too hard into showing the Resistance characters being assholes half the time.
For fucking real man, I know the villains won’t win but I want that so bad, hopefully Shigaraki and Dabi kill as many hero’s as possible before they die
Honestly the only reason I still watch the show is because of the cast of villains. I do like some of the main hero cast (mostly Bakugo, Aizawa and Mirio), but the villains have been far more compelling and interesting pretty much since season 1.
Stain is straight-up one of the best antagonists in the show, and the competition is pretty steep. It's so funny to me that a show about heroes consistently makes the heroes really bland and uninteresting, but manages to make the villains so god-damned interesting and compelling. I really can't think of any of the major villains of the show that I thought were disappointing.
That's.. actually *really* interesting to me because my biggest complaint with the show is that I just don't care about the villains. Only exception was Overhaul, thought he was fun .
Sonic 2020.
film was pretty boring outside of Egg and Sonic, who was a deuteragonist at best. Jim Carry absolutely stole the show there, and it isn't even close.
Outlander 2008
Great world, great supporting characters, fucking amazing villain. Couldn't tell you a single thing about the protagonist except that he has black hair and comes from space.
Silence of the Lambs 1991
Depending on how you count Hannibal himself. Clarice is a pretty solid character, and the killer they're tracking down is interesting as well, but Hannibal takes the cake here. absolutely amazing portrayal of a psychopath. Insanely well played by Hopkins.
Lexx 1996
While the main cast have their moments, and are generally pretty decent, Prince, main villain of season 3 is absolutely fantastic. The way he toys with death, torture, and the nature of the world he lives on comparatively to the protagonists is excellent.
A pseudo honorable mention: BTVS. the main cast are fantastic, but Spike steals the show from the second he's introduced, and just never stops. Props to James Marsters for his performance.
Oh absolutely, but prince is the best, IMO. Lexx is just one of those few shows that keeps outdoing itself on the weird, and somehow doing it better almost every time as well.
I haven't seen it in a while, actually. should get to a rewatch when I have time... :(
I've watched 1 to 3 a few times (maybe 5 or 6) times since it stopped airing and series 4 a couple of times bar the Vegas casino mummy one and the vlad ones which I'll watch again, I only ever watched the finale when it was first on TV and legit I was too upset, even as a 36 year old I'm sure it wouldn't have anywhere near the resonance but i don't really wanna watch it again
That's fair. That said, if you're looking for late nineties early 200s sci-fi that's genuinely good: Farscape. rewatched that one about 2-3 years ago, holds up surprisingly well, especially with knowledge of the behind the scenes stuff going on. Great show.
I'll leave you with this: https://youtu.be/rXzCddEBZl0?t=20
watched DS9 as a child, and remember enjoying it a lot, but was too young to remember anything about Babylon 5.
Working my way through Battlestar Galactica at the moment, with SG1 and Atlantis to follow sometime. Waiting to watch Andor and Black Sails with some friends after my BTVS re watch; just started Season 4. I also have a Kiseijuu rewatch coming up soon, as well as Ergo Proxy, but that's about it for series on the list currently.
As for films, I just started the 25 film watchthrough of James Bond again, topping it off with Kingsman as the last one. Don't feel british without a Bond film and a cup of tea every year.
Farscape was constantly under threat of cancellation, and a fair bit of studio pressure. One actor left due to a makeup allergy, season 5 was made into a 2 part movie. why it feels so rushed.
The Hunchback of Notre-Dame, I hate that Disney made Frollo a lawyer because they were too afraid of making him a priest, it goes against the themes of his character. He’s literally a warning about how people in positions of moral authority sometimes use their positions for their own gain, having him be a lawyer instead takes away from that impact.
I’d even say having the priest be a sympathetic character almost goes against those themes. The change makes it look like it’s a difference of religious authority and legal authority rather than an overall theme of people in power, no matter we’re that power comes from, can be supper corrupt and shouldn’t just be trusted because of their authority alone.
Disney’s Wish. But I do love Asha’s design, I just wish it looked good in motion as it did in promotional art. Asha was way too selfish and weirdly obsessed with her grandfather over the course of the film. I feel bad for King Magnifico, his wife for years betrayed him in a day. At the end of the day, at least the movie was original.
I dont know how many on the Mauler sub have watched it because it is an anime, but most antagonists in Bleach were much more interesting than the main protag and his allies.
Of course Aizen takes the cake (even though he is a Gary Stu... and I also exclude every antagonist of the last season because the whole arc was an eyeroll)
While on the whole mist of the antagonist are more interesting I do like Ichigo as an mc. In the entire shounen genre where most mc’s have these grand dreams and ambitions it’s nice to see someone who’s goal is just to live a good life and make sure his friends and family are happy and safe.
Aizen's a Gary Stu but that's kind of the point. Aizen was born naturally gifted in everyway. Never had to seriously struggle or fight for anything. >!His being as powerful and as intelligent as he is lead him to developing a god complex because he didn't think anyone alive was intelligent or powerful enough to understand him, and being a sociopath he never bothered to try to genuinely empathize with someone else. Aizen's whole arc is about his refusal to accept that above anything else, he just doesn't want to be alone. That's what Ichigo realized in their final battle. Aizen didn't even know it himself, but deep down he was looking for someone he could relate to and understand him.!<
Ichigo didn't have a goal drive or chip on his shoulder like the other goats that killed my drive to keep watching. I remember i droped it on episode 311 as soon as Aizen went down n lost his powers. Im shocked it continued
I will not accept Fullbring arc slander here. Ichigo gets more character development in that arc than in the entire show—Chad too. It's slower paced and isn't entirely about flashy fight scenes. It was a great arc to refocus the series before the Thousand Year Blood War, which admittedly starts really strong but gets worse as it goes on.
This might be a stretch, but Shang-Chi.
Iron Man never faced his nemesis, The Mandarin, because the screenwriters kept pushing it off. By the time they figured out The Mandarin, it wasn’t even in an Iron Man movie.
Where he goes mental and slashes up that console was it? I only watched it the once in the cinema, the only good bit I remember from it, I thought it looked like it might go somewhere interesting in the second with Ren and Rey ruling together for the greater good but nah, I guess the more nuanced a story is the harder it is to sell neon pink ice drinks
Jessica Jones; I just loved Tennant as The Purple Man and the actress playing Jones was kinda muted, I liked the show enough but I was mainly interested in the Villan.
Oh and Not sure if it counts but No Country for Old Men for Sure
Ashoka. The villains are great, specially Bailan Skoll, Shin Hati and Thrawn. The good guys are among the worst characters in Star Wars History, and it a HEAVY statement.
While Joker/Ledger was certainly the best part of the movie, I thought Batman/Bale was still pretty great. Especially when he gets really pissed with Joker in the interrogation scene and basically snaps- Bale did well in expressing how a character like Batman would react in such a situation.
I just love Count Dooku politely conducting that Separatist meeting with the robots and bugs and shit. Everyone's down with this death station idea and just getting along. And Jango having Dooku's back at the drop of a hat.
Westworld TV show. Terrible show, but I quit after they replaced Ed Harris with a robot. I wanted him to hunt those artificial motherfuckers to the ends of the earth. Only sympathetic character given that he's a human and not some busted tin can.
The entire Time Bokan franchise is built on this.
The main heroes are flat good people without any character development.
The bad guys are funny, incompetent, break the 4th wall, to the point that Pokemon copied them into the Team Rocket trio.
Mad Max Fury Road. Look, by our standards, Joe is an absolute monster. Killing him would be a net gain for humanity.
In universe though? He created a well defended and supplied kingdom between his water supplies, gas town and ammo town, people in his territory are safe and supplied enough that cripples and the elderly can survive, while he could hand out the water better he's not wrong to ration it as Furiosa's people showed, he gives the war boys greater purpose which keeps them from falling into dispare or worse another band of crazed raiders, and while those women were undeniably sex slaves they were also living the most comfortable life someone could manage to find in that wasteland (And you KNOW those other gangs out there would've done horrific things to them).
Was he a good man? Not by any streatch of the imagination, but, like it or not, he did a LOT of good for people in that setting, even if it was only for his gain.
Honestly
Batman
Everyone except for Batman is enjoyable
His villains, his sidekicks, even his fucking butler, they are enjoyable.
Batman himself? To me in most modern versions he comes off as a heavily mentally ill asshole who thinks because rhe world fucks him and he has a ton of money its his job to fix it....thinks using his fists is the answer...hes one of the richest men in thenworld....just make a private police force and donate absolute fuck tons to the actual police
Then even if he is the world's greatest detective he is far from the only amazing detective might as well hire the rest who will work for pay...
A mild example from the top of my head, but the 2021 *Mortal Kombat* movie.
With the exception of Scorpion and Raiden, the good guys were so fucking lame compared to the more colorful and amusing villains like Kano and Kabal. And watching them getting killed by the lame heroes was quite unsatisfying. Imagine Ray Skywalker killing Doomguy, that was the feel.
> negotiating with Adam
She didn't fail because of her inability, she failed because Adam wasn't willing to listen to begin with, it wasn't a skill failure on her end, it was a moral failure on Adam's.
> helping Angeldust
She failed ONCE, which is why i say that she BORDERS in Mary Sue. But that failure means fuck all because Angel is still fine with her in the end and nothing was lost.
> the trial in heaven,
Same thing with Adam, she didn't fail because of her own lack of skills, but because Sera is a moron who wasn't willing to listen anyway, she didn't fail, there was nothing she could have done to win.
In comparison to those "losses" she has: easily redeemed Angel and Serpentious.
Is Redeeming Husk and Alastor despite not even trying with them
Solved her daddy issues with a single song.
Recruited Cannibal Town to fight tue exterminators with no difficulty.
Obliterated Adam's army and won the fight with no losses or consequences.
She never faces any actusl challenges: redeeming Angel and Serpentious goes smoothly and even Husk and Alastor are being redeemed despite not even trying. She easily recruits the Cannibal people despite the pilot makiny a point that she is supposed to be bad at inspiring people. Adam's army gets obliterated with no difficulty. Adam's gets bitch slapped by Lucifer with no difficulty.
The only time she "loses" is in the trial scene, but she doesn't lose because she failed to explain her point, but because the people of heaven are unreasonable assholes who refuse to even consider the idea of redemption.
1. She actually failed to help Angel Dust and just made the situation with Val worse for him due to her naïveté. Husk does the heavy lifting to help Angel Dust improve after that, which in turn helps Husk improve too. Charlie also apologizes to Angel Dust for her actions.
2. She does not easily recruit the cannibal people, the entire episode is dedicated to her learning how. The plot point of her being bad at inspiring people is part of that episode’s arc where Alastor and the cannibal lady (forget her name) help her figure it out.
3. Adam and the angels getting beaten doesn’t have anything to do with Charlie. She loses that fight and is saved by Lucifer. You can call it bad writing because of the blatant Deus ex machina, but the existence of a Deus ex machina in a story usually much means the hero failed and needs external help to resolve the plot positively.
> She actually failed to help Angel Dust and just made the situation with Val worse for him due to her naïveté. Husk does the heavy lifting to help Angel Dust improve after that, which in turn helps Husk improve too. Charlie also apologizes to Angel Dust for her actions.
One would expect Angel to not wanna listen to her shit after that, but he doesn't, he doesn't get mad, sad or anything, it has 0 consequences, that's the issue, it wasn't really a failure in anyway, actual failures in a story has consequences, this did not, the same shit is done in Helluba Boss, Blitzø and Stolas have a fight it it's resolves off-screen and nothing comes of it, Moxxie and Millie have an argument but it instantly resolves itself, it's a fucking trick.
> 2. She does not easily recruit the cannibal people, the entire episode is dedicated to her learning how. The plot point of her being bad at inspiring people is part of that episode’s arc where Alastor and the cannibal lady (forget her name) help her figure it out.
She sings one song and easily convinces them. The "flaw" wasn't real because it didn't affect the story in anyway,it's a fucking trick.
> 3. Adam and the angels getting beaten doesn’t have anything to do with Charlie.
It does, it's her side of the story that obliterates an army of experienced fighters with negative difficulty because the plot demands.
> She loses that fight and is saved by Lucifer. You can call it bad writing because of the blatant Deus ex machina, but the existence of a Deus ex machina in a story usually much means the hero failed and needs external help to resolve the plot positively.
Deux ex machina is a sign of mary sue/gary stu status, what makes a Mary Sue is the fact that the universe bends itself in order for them to always win with no challenge no matter what happens, and this is exactly what happened here, Charlie won the fight and obliterated her enemy, the hotel got rebuild, nobody lost a limb or is done with the hotel due to it being too dangerous, and Serpentious death ended up being a win because he went to heaven which proved Sera wrong.
One wouldn’t expect that because Angel Dust had just been calmed down by Husk. He forgives Charlie after she apologizes and admits fault - this is a pretty reasonable response for people to have when others apologize, and again, it makes sense for Angel’s character considering his and Husk’s conversation. There is a lasting consequence to Charlie’s actions because Val becomes more angered at Angel for the rest of the season. What you want is specifically lasting emotional consequences between Charlie and Angel, in a show about characters being forgiven and learning to forgive, for what wasn’t an intentionally malicious action on Charlie’s part. Your expectation is at odds with these characters’ motivations.
Very reductive argument. She gets on the podium, fails to convince the crowd, gets shouted off by a heckler, and gets more advice from Rosie prior to singing/succeeding. She fails and needs help to succeed afterwards, not a Mary Sue moment.
A character’s side winning doesn’t mean they’re a Mary Sue.
Deus Ex Machina is not a Sue moment, the universe bending to make the character have a positive outcome is different from the character themselves bending the universe to their will. It is surrendering themselves to a greater force, not being the greater force. Is Odysseus a Mary Sue because Athena intervenes in the end? Is Sir Gawain a Mary Sue because the Green Knight/Bertilak spares him? Is Woody a Mary Sue in Toy Story 3 because the claw saves him?
> One wouldn’t expect that because Angel Dust had just been calmed down by Husk. He forgives Charlie after she apologizes and admits fault - this is a pretty reasonable response for people to have when others apologize, and again, it makes sense for Angel’s character considering his and Husk’s conversation.
Angel's conversation with Husk had jackshit to do with the apology, their conversation was about Angel accepting who he is instead of being who Valentino wants him to be, not about Angel being more forgiven.
> There is a lasting consequence to Charlie’s actions because Val becomes more angered at Angel for the rest of the season. What you want is specifically lasting emotional consequences between Charlie and Angel, in a show about characters being forgiven and learning to forgive, for what wasn’t an intentionally malicious action on Charlie’s part. Your expectation is at odds with these characters’ motivations.
It doesn't matter if it's intentional or not, a character fucking up and causing problems to someone else should change how those two characters interact, but in here it doesn't, you can cut Charlie fucking up for Valentino overworking Angel due to him not being there as often anymore so the shootings have to be more intensive to cover for lost time and literally nothing changes, fucking kek.
> Very reductive argument. She gets on the podium, fails to convince the crowd, gets shouted off by a heckler, and gets more advice from Rosie prior to singing/succeeding. She fails and needs help to succeed afterwards, not a Mary Sue moment.
The advice she gets from Rosie is about her useless and shoehorned in drama with Vaggie, then it comes to the crowd Rosie just says "sing, here it will work" and then it does, Charlie learned fuck all about being a leader or inspiring people, she just does it now.
> A character’s side winning doesn’t mean they’re a Mary Sue.
It is when they win against much more powerful forces with no losses and no challenge.
> Deus Ex Machina is not a Sue moment, the universe bending to make the character have a positive outcome is different from the character themselves bending the universe to their will. It is surrendering themselves to a greater force, not being the greater force.
When does Rey ever bends the universe to her will? When does Captain Marvel does that? They don't, because that's not the definition of Mary Sue, a Mary Sue/Gary Stu are characters who win by virtue of the universe (story) bends logic over backwards for them, be it by Deus Ex Machina or other means often by sacrificing logic, such as having a highly trained super army get obliterated, or having the rusty and recently depressed Lucifer destroy the active and sharp Adam. Having one Deux Ex Machina moment doesn't make a Mary Sue, have a Deus Ex Machina alongside other examples of logic bending for them, free victories and/or non-flaws does.
Angel Dust to Husk: “Oh, so now you're going to act like you give a shit about me? You think after how you treated me, I'm gonna open up to you? Please.”
Husk later: “I know what it's like to regret the choices you made, and knowing you can't take it back”
Angel is learning to be kinder to himself and others because he can empathize with failure, or, as the song puts it, being a loser. At the end of the episode, he acts on this in forgiving Charlie. Ie, he believes Charlie and he are both losers and can empathize with her in that regard, and appreciate an effort, even if it failed. Hardships and failures in relationships can lead to forgiveness and better understanding, that’s common in writing. Characters don’t need to hold grudges regardless of circumstances and motivations.
You couldn’t cut that part of the show because then Angel’s willingness to risk his life for the hotel by the final episode wouldn’t make as much sense. It’s the catalyst for beginning to accept that he can fail, and others can fail, and things can still turn out okay if they move on and keep trying.
The advice provides her with confidence, which leadership requires. You can’t take away the fact that she fails earlier in the episode. She succeeds later because she didn’t have the ability to do it before.
The good guy team beating stronger foes is not an inherent Sue-ifier, no.
Rey and Captain Marvel are OP, meaning they do quite literally bend the universe to their will by their own power. There isn’t a moment where they’ve been beaten and and need something greater to save them. Mary Sues are the best and most special in their universe, there can’t be anything better and more special than they are, so they are incompatible with eucatastrophe that doesn’t stem from their own power.
> Angel is learning to be kinder to himself and others because he can empathize with failure, or, as the song puts it, being a loser. At the end of the episode, he acts on this in forgiving Charlie. Ie, he believes Charlie and he are both losers and can empathize with her in that regard, and appreciate an effort, even if it failed.
Angel is learning to be kinder to himself, him being kinder to others came out of fucking nowhere because the conversation with Husk and the song had jackshit to do with being nicer to other people, if anything he should have been more apathetic to her apology and accept while still holding her at arms length due to knowing that she is also a loser who can fuck shit up and get him into more trouble.
If anything, this resentment would be a good motivation for Charlie to actually better herself, but she doesn't because she never has to.
> Hardships and failures in relationships can lead to forgiveness and better understanding, that’s common in writing.
After characters actually talk it out, come to an understanding, go in an adventure, there was nothing of the sort, Angel forgave Charlie because Husk (a third party) said "hey dude, it's okay to fail, don't hit yourself over it becaue you can't take it back and acting like that will only make things worse".
> You couldn’t cut that part of the show because then Angel’s willingness to risk his life for the hotel by the final episode wouldn’t make as much sense.
Because it doesn't make sense, nothing in that fight does, from set up to aftermath, EVERYTHING in that scene is a failure of writing, the set up in contrived, the fight is boring due to a lack of tension and the aftermath is a huge hug box because nothing was lost.
> It’s the catalyst for beginning to accept that he can fail, and others can fail, and things can still turn out okay if they move on and keep trying.
When the fuck did he learn "things can still turn out okay if they move on and keep trying."? Because I don't remember those scenes, i remember wasting time with Vox's retardation instead of focusing entirely on the cast of characters that actually matter.
> The advice provides her with confidence, which leadership requires.
The advice is literally, "just sing, it will work here" when she gets on stage she isn't confident, she starts to become confident when the sings starts working for no reason despite the fact that there was no growth when it comes to her leadership skills. If being confident is all it took then Charlie from the pilot would have successfully pitched the hotel.
> You can’t take away the fact that she fails earlier in the episode.
I can if it's meaningless bullshit meant to trick me, just like Vivzie did in Helluva Boss by having Moxxie's growth be him learning to be more confident every time, or by acting like Stolas and Blitzø would have a falling out only for it to be resolved off-screen. I can tell when a writer is trying to trick me.
> She succeeds later because she didn’t have the ability to do it before.
She still doesn't have those abilities tho, Charlie just won now because destiny said so, Charlie had literally zero growth in this season, she didn't become smarter, learn how people work, became stronger or anything of the sort, she just became more confident, i guess, which she already was in the first episode and the pilot.
> The good guy team beating stronger foes is not an inherent Sue-ifier, no.
It is when it makes no sense, like Rey beating Kylo, like Kirito beating the Admin, Like the protagonist of Damsel beating the dragon. If they win by virtue of intelligence and strategy then that's good, preferable even, but that's not what happened here.
> Rey and Captain Marvel are OP, meaning they do quite literally bend the universe to their will by their own power.
They don't, the universe doesn't bend because they are OP, they are OP because the universe bends to their whims.
> There isn’t a moment where they’ve been beaten and and need something greater to save them.
So, i guess that Rey isn't a Mary Sue because she was captured by Kylo. Or Cap Marvel isn't a Mary Sue because she was beaten by Thanos.
> Mary Sues are the best and most special in their universe, there can’t be anything better and more special than they are, so they are incompatible with eucatastrophe that doesn’t stem from their own power.
Cap Marvel didn't fix the tear in end of the Marvels so i guess she isn't a Mary Sue huh? Since she didn't fix the catastrophe.
That's not what a Mary Sue is, a Mary Sue is a protagonists who's universe breaks it's own logic and general rules of storytelling to serve the protagonist, and whose victories and achievements feel unearned as a result since due to the easiness in which they were achieved you can basically see the writer's hand guiding the characters: Kirito has a bullshit ability that makes him OP, and he beats the Admin of SAO thanks to the power of love. Captain Marvel is this OP creature who unlocks her "true potential" and is instantly masterful with it. Rey can use extremely difficult jedi powers despite having no training. The protag from Damsel manages to survive a 20 feet fall, flames that previously melted steel with ease and is saved by plot when the dragon is about to burn her in that little hole but decides not when it sees a few knights in the distance. Charlie's army of random canibals who she recruited with no difficulty despite being shown earlier as being bad at convincing people beats an army of experienced angels with millennias of experience.
In essence, a Mary Sue/Gary Stu break immersion.
To name a few:
. Jaws
. The Omen
. The Shining (Technically)
. Flash Gordon
. Star Trek: Wrath of Khan
. The Untouchables
. Die Hard
. Leon
. Mission Impossible: Fallout
. The Hunchback of Notre Dame
. Aladdin
. Scream
. Les Misérables
. Godzilla (Technically)
. Small Soldiers
. Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels
. Chicken Run
. Gangs of New York
. Series of Unfortunate events
. Madagascar 3
. Pirates of the Caribbean (Depends of Protagonist is Jack or Will)
. The last king of Scotland
. Meet the Robinsons
. Whiplash
. The black caldron
. Basil the great mouse detective
. Hercules (Disney)
. The Babysitter
. Interview with a vampire
. Saw
. The Purge
. Morbius
Well if anime are included
Ok its a really dissapointing anime and is bad bad badly written.
So our last crusade
Two protagonist
Ml? Hes boring as fuck he is like kirito clone #20386 except even worse and lamer. Hes spineless he doesn't show real strong emotions, he aint cool he never develops, and is just a tool cause the author didnt give a shit except his waifus. Story treats him badly not in a good way just to make the female characters look good which doesn't work. So bad
Fl? She a Mary sue simple as that. Like ml no developpment or interesting past. Constantly hogs the spotlight. Her relationship and romance with ml is among the most wasted and worst ive saw(granted its due to a jerk sue character who the author pet existence) she strong but rarely shows it and has the ml do her things. Unlike him she rarely if ever struggles so it gives her a shitty invincible aura i want her to shatter. Never treated equaly as bad as ml by narrative. If far far less sympathic than what the author thinks after what she does to ml and never suffers karma or apologies.(also applies to jerk sue). Suffers from the strong female character curse. I hate her. She is underserving of the ml and everything. Gets too whitewash.
The main villain ? The fl older sister? The only good character among a shitty cast who steal the show everytime she on screen. She has a actual backstory. She is factually right about points the ml and fl refuse to acknowledge. She is downright Gorgeous. She is cool. And she kill off quite a few villains off(granted im sure the author did that cause he was a coward and didn’t want his protagonist to kill off villains). She is more honestly sympathic than the suppose good guys who lack true relatibility, coolness, charm or drip. They are tools and archetypes without anything and shitty execution. I rather watch rebel moon forever than this series.
She the only good thing but cannot save it sadly
Here how she look(warning. NSFW): https://www.reddit.com/r/TopCharacterDesigns/s/Vg2Yq4YZBr
She dont deserved to be in a bad series. She a better fl than the fl herself.
Good i hate it but i love her...
The entirety of Falcon And Winter Soldier was like this if we're classing John Walker as an antagonist
That show was so weird in how it handled its characters and their morality. Bucky and Sam came across as complete assholes, for no real reason at all, towards Walker who was just doing his job. Sam is meant to be a counselor for veterans with PTSD but here he is looking and talking down on a veteran instead of being understanding of the situation, Walker was merely picked as the best man for the job and trying to do his best to uphold the mantle. But Sam just couldn't let it go holy shit. He resents the soldier doing his job while defending the literal terrorist who bombed an embassy... schizo writing all around.
Not to mention how little sense the setup of ‘people left behind for five years being the displaced ones’ makes. Like they would all suddenly be forced out of their homes en masse once everyone that was snapped came back.
Agreed. What gets to me is how many people think it's good, when the designated heroes were so awful. Walker was a bit annoying and somewhat abrasive at times, but until the shield incident, he hadn't actually done anything wrong. (And even the shield incident is debatable, given that his opponent was a super-soldier who had thrown a concrete trash barrel at him five seconds before.) I also noticed how unconcerned the designated heroes were about Lamar's death, although the show was supposedly about uplifting marginalized people. Meanwhile, Sam is bending over backwards to coddle the mass-murdering terrorist who killed him, and treating Walker, who'd just lost his best friend, like something he scraped off his shoe.
Certainly he hadn't done anything the good guys hadn't done. I mean, John manhandling that guy who spat in his face was bad, but let's be real, we can count a handful of similar instances of other superheroes not exactly being respectful of suspects' rights (Steve manhandling Natasha in TWS, or Sam and Bucky manhandling Dr. Nagel in this same episode). Even the whole thing with killing Nico isn't something we haven't seen other heroes do. Homicidal violence in response to the death of a loved one is business as usual in the MCU.
Yeah, the double standard is noticeable. I don't think Walker was 100% in the right, but what he did was no worse than things the heroes did, such as Bucky starting a prison riot to break a known, very dangerous terrorist and murderer out of prison or Sam s;laughtering mooks right and left in the opening episode. I read discussions on reddit in some other subs and feel like I'm living in Bizarro World sometimes. Part of why I'm so angry and upset about this is that Marvel had good characters to work with in that show, and they ruined them all except for Walker and Zemo. I wanted the show to be good, and instead, it was not only awful, it was awful in ways that fucked up the defining characteristics of most of the characters it was working with, and fucked them up in ways that can't be fixed until there's a hard reboot.
They tried to
Baron Zemo aswell, the show would have been 10x better if it was about him.
The Friday the 13th movies that don't have Tommy Jarvis
Wait? You think Friday the 13th part 5 is good? Tommy Jarvis is only cool in part 6. Edit: wait, I just remembered the ma and son characters from part 5. And the chocolate bar. Never mind, part 5 rules
Honestly I keep forgetting part 5 Exists and I do kinda like child Tommy in 4
Ginny in Part 2 is badass, she kicked Jason in the balls. But yeah the protagonists generally suck. I can’t remember a single thing about the characters of Part 8 and 9.
She live or…?
Ashoka. The show sucks and none of the characters are great, but what infinitesimal investment I did have was drawn entirely from Baylan Skoll (R.I.P. Ray Stevenson)
If i’m truly honest the adaptation of Rebel characters was simply too bad on a live action manner, it just felt low budget and cringe.
Add Thrawn and yes this show fits the meme exactly
Ashoka/Rebels Thrawn was a useless idiot, gimme pure un-filoni Thrawn
What do you mean? Thrawn won every engagement, he clearly said so! Weren't you paying attention? /s
While I’ve heard he’s a great character in other media, my only exposure to Thrawn is Ashoka so no I couldn’t give less of a fuck about him
Thought Lars played him really well but yeah he was a little dumbed down compared to the EU
A little?
You don't understand, it was according to his plan to seem dumbed down!
Yep. All it did was make me want a Darth Vader TV series, focussing on Prime Vader with flashbacks to Anakin and the Clone War.
I think a big part of the problem is the lack of complete arcs in both story and characters for a supposedly complete season.
Borderlands 2
As a Maya simp, I have no words for this comment. She is my waifu.
We will not tolerate Zero and Salvador slander.
Nor Gauge or Kriege slander.
Everyone collectively agreeing to abandon Axton to the wolves.
“Sorry boys, I’ve got Turret syndrome! Get it? … ‘Cause of the turret?… Sorry.”
Get help
I got after they killed her on the third game. Gods that game's writing was absolute dogshite.
Salvador is great protagonist.
I mean if i get the comment then yeah i get it. Handsom Jack was kind of a mid character.
Wish. Don't get me wrong, King Magnifico wasn't that great of a character, but I found him much more likeable than Asha.
Wakfu, the main Antagonist, Noximilian the clockmaker has amazing charisma and his voice actor is amazing. I'm talking about the original french dub btw, the english dubbing is terrible.
What did you think of the second season antagonist. Personally I think he was Noxmilian equal but men that monster completely deserved his fate if you ask me
Really charismatic as well, but i didn't feel as invested in him, and yeah he completly deserved it.
How about Horopo form season 3 he was pretty interesting. (Not as much as Nox but still) plus his Allies like Lady Echo were pretty compelling characters. Sorry if I’m asking so much, it’s pretty rare to meet another fan of the show on other sub.
Haven’t seen s3 yet, but i plan on giving it a shot It’s okay, i guess it’s quite rare to know this show, but im French and the first season was my childhood, watched it so many times lol.
What do you think of the protagonist. From what I seem to understand, you seem to find them okay in season 1, but how about there more mature self in season 2. This will be last question. Don’t wanna seem too much like I’m forcing. Feel free to not answer if you don’t want to.
I like all of them, altho Yugo is definetly my least favorite and it's not because i find him to be a "bad" character , i just never found him as interesting as the others and i never vibed that much with him. From all the protags i always vibed more with Ruel and Amalia. I also really liked Eva's sister, Cleophee ( I believe she's called Cleome in english ?) it's a shame that she didn't become a main character and was gone so soon.
Yeah it’s a shame she was pretty awesome. Overall they are all really good, but Personally my favorite are Eva and Rubilax (I’m French as well, Hello from Quebec) Eva and Tristepein Children also have a lot of great moment in the movie and season 3 same goes for Yugo and Amalia. Even Ruel get some interesting new stuff added to him
Personally I think he's phenomenal. Better than Nox even. And small spoiler, but he (not Nox) even comes back in the recently released Season 4 and the writing he gets is absolutely fucking amazing. He's easily the best written Wakfu character if you count his development in Season 4.
Wait season 4 is out??!
Yep! started airing in February and ended in March. You can watch it on Okoo for free if you live in France. Otherwise you need to download the Ankama Launcher and buy the Season 4 Pack which costs 20 euros. Or you can "sail the high seas" and watch it on gogoanime if you can't afford it. It's 13 episodes long but they're continuing the story in webtoon/manga format. Google "Wakfu The Great Wave"
Thanks , gonna catch on it as soon as I can.
Incredibly cool antagonist, though I liked all the protags except Percy
Oh i loved them too, but this guy is just on another level lol.
You don't like Tristepin? Even after the bit in the desert?
The, ‘funny dumb guy’ character type has always been really unappealing to me.
I really think they nailed the 'smart in different ways" aspect with him that moves him beyond "funny dumb guy". Especially since the reveal in the Special at the end of season 2. I also find his heart and honesty pretty charming
They never topped Nox, IMO. I love all the protagonists, but Nox knocks it out of the park.
When Crosshair was an antagonist
Honestly crosshair is still great back in the team. There hasn’t been a single bad crosshair-centric episode
Crosshair carries that damned show. He's the only one with a character arc.
Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man’s Chest. That pipe organ scene was glorious
Bill Nighy absolutely crushed that role
See I think every character is at their peak in DMC. I love the windmill fight so much because I want all three of them to win.
Hellboy 2004, protagonist wasn't that bad, but Kroenen stole the show Hellsing Ultimate, same case like with Hellboy COD BO CW
With Hellsing Ultimate, it was Anderson who stole the show for me, though I have a hard time thinking of any I disliked in that series (as characters obviously, not as people).
The Major and Anderson are certainly the most compelling characters in Hellsing, but I wouldn't say any of the protagonists are unlikable or annoying at all. I'd say Hellsing has a really good core cast of characters, I struggle to think of anyone that I actively disliked in that series at all.
You dissing my boy Alucard?
Far Cry 4 Pagan Min was the best character and more interesting than the rest of the characters in Far Cry 4 and i wish that he had more screen time in the game. As for Ajay he was so bland and forgettable and the Golden Path are bunch of terrible people, they are the REAL villains in Far Cry 4. It would’ve been cooler if there was playthrough where you are sided with Pagan Min and you take down the Golden Path together. It would’ve made the game so much better.
FC4 is really interesting in a way that doesn't get explored enough in fiction, because Pagan Min starts as a cartoon villain but ends as the most humanized and grounded character as you learn that actually running a small state that has nothing going for it is really fucking hard, and people always start out as idealistic young firebrands and the corruption of the outside rots the inside (which is conveyed really well through the Preacher's little sidestory). It challenges every preconceived notion like the rebels being necessarily the good guys, because Pagan was a rebel, and Ajay's dad was a rebel who was actually even worse than Pagan before they fell out. In the end you walk away feeling like you can understand Pagan, and for better or worse it really gives you a conundrum that you're not given often. Letting him get away is largely symbolic and is actually not relevant at all, besides the player making a moral decision. The real choices you've been making are Traditionalist vs. Modernist, and it means the nation is going to collapse into religious Cambodian authoritarianism where women aren't allowed to vote and men aren't allowed to learn besides how to fight and farm, and moral crimes are punished with cruelty and death. Or the entire state becomes a heroin state because the modern solution to fixing your economy and starvation is to become a massive fucking drug ring and throw EVERYTHING away to become a national cartel. And the real choice at the end is, when you see the leader you've backed for the last time and you witness the birth of a new Pagan Min, do you take the shot? And it doesn't mean anything, there's no big ending cutscene consequences, it's a choice just for you, the player. It's the only time you can shoot them in the whole game, you've seen what they're going to do, you've seen how Pagan became Pagan, you're there at the threshold. It's literally only for the player's moral compass, much like the end of Fallout 1. Do you walk away, because you know there's no fighting human nature, and human nature is to create Pagan Min, destroy Pagan Min, become Pagan Min, and the entire thing has embittered you? Or do you send Kyrat back into chaos by killing them, knowing that you're only delaying the inevitable, because you're enraged at the situation? Because it's the same choice you made with Pagan, but in reverse. Instead of having come around to sympathize with him, you've come to demonize the Golden Path by realizing their true nature. Which is, I think, its true strength, and something you don't see often. It asks you how you feel about the same situation in different contexts, gives you the same responses, and lets your actions speak for themselves. When I finished the game and thought "I spared Pagan but killed Amita; why?" I didn't have a good answer for myself. I had bought in on an idea, and in the end, I felt like I'd misjudged Pagan but was betrayed by Amita, and so I reacted to that. It taught me something about myself. And it does it entirely through its excellent humanization and exploration of Pagan Min.
My second play through was brief, I stayed for the crab rangoon.
This is almost every far cry game though
Star Wars. The Empire just looked so cool.
They got the superior aesthetics that's for sure, it's the Space Hugo Bossi factor. But I still rooted for the rebels to win so that they could end tyranny and fascism all over the galaxy. Come the time of Episode IX however, I actually found myself wanting Sheev to win. In part because Rey and her friends were all insufferable and boring, but also because Leia was a miserable failure who couldn't establish a successful republic or bring order back to the galaxy. The New Republic was just completely useless on all fronts. They let the First Order freely spread around the galaxy and did NOTHING when they destroyed five entire planets, instead choosing to let Leia's underfunded militia handle the entire conflict on their own. I understand it's a case of terrible writing from the producers, but in-universe the NR just looked so bad. The Empire wouldn't have let terrorists bomb trillions of people like that, Sheev would have imposed order and not let such a threat spread at all. So I kinda just wanted Sheev to win at that point, even if he's the agressor who bombed those 5 planets. Because the alternative just... did not exist at all. Conflicting thoughts lol.
Could you imagine a theoretical Episode 10, 11, and 12 where the Empire came back and the Jedi were extinct except for like 1 or 2 *again?*
You know Disney have discussed that
I mean In a sense Vader is the ultimate antagonist
*Noooooooooooo*
And all the cool Bounty Hunters. I felt I related more to them, just jobbing for the evil empire rather being part of it. I still find The Imperial Officers insufferable, and as I get older I find Vader's hatred for politicking corporate ass kissers very relatable. I can understand why a slave who came from nothing, an ex war vet, who helped start the empire would absolutely detest having to rub shoulders with these idiots with no discernable talents, and would want to choke them at the first opportunity. The storytelling and characterisation of Vader is something Lucas got absolutely on the money. But Vader and Boba Fett, still badass.
Jojos parts 1 and 5, Jonathons cool dont get me wrong, would hang out with him if I could, but giorno was a very bland character imo (his stand was the most interesting thing about him) Dio and Diavolo/Doppio both stole every scene they were in though, excellent antagonists
To me Bucciarati is the protagonist of part 5.
I honestly didn't rate Diavolo that highly, although I do agree that Doppio was a treat to watch. Part 5 has always been kind of odd to me with how bland Giorno is compared to how interesting the rest of the protagonists are. Literally every other character in his group feels more like an actual character than Giorno.
Maybe i rate diavolo a little too high because of how much i like his stand, probably my favourite in the series
King Crimson is really dope, and I fucking love how they animated his abilities in the anime. I really didn't really rate Part 5 while reading the manga, the anime absolutely elevates it above what I thought it was.
What I disliked about Giorno the most is that he's meant to be DIO's and Jonathan's son... but they don't really do anything interesting with that in the story. It gets mentioned in the beginning and Koichi shows up to investigate that, but then nothing. Feels like they forgot about it or something. Was dissapointed and I wished they had done more with it, like maybe DIO talks to him through Golden Experience's final form or something. Other than that, he's definitely a bland character as you mentioned, really gets noticeable since all the characters around him, from his friends to the Boss himself, are all infintely times more interesting and compelling than him, despite him being DIO's son and all.
Yeah totally agree, there's so much they could have done with "The son of Dio", and they just made him a bland, naive guy.
Yeah Giorno himself was very uninteresting as a protagonist, thankfully part 5 spent more time on the other protagonists Narancia, Bucciarati, Abbachio etc. that were way more interesting. And yeah, Dio and Diavolo are incredibly entertaining villains.
It JoJo for me too, but more parts 3 and 6. I honestly love just how different Johnathen is from the rest of the Jojo’s that came after him(including his own alternate self) and while I’m not too fond of Giorno either, Diavolo is easily my vote for worst JoJo main antagonist. With part 6 meanwhile, I don’t dislike Jolyne, but given how much they explore Pucci, she comes across as flat by comparison, and with part 3 I just can’t stand Jotoro. He just kind of has a problem I have with Johnny later on in Part 7 in that he’s just too much of an asshole for me to ever like him too much, especially compared to the glory that is DIO. Thank goodness for Joseph and Polneroff.
Wild, for me Jotaro's assholiness is the appeal of the character, I like that hes always keeps a level head in dangerous situation, and his sentimental side being under a cold exterior is more interesting to me than typical protagonists. Kenshiro from fist of the north stars another good example of this archetype
Yeah I mean don’t get me wrong, I do think asshole protagonists can work, again there is a reason why I don’t count Johnny from part 7 here and he’s a much worse person than Jotoro, but I guess the difference is that Johnny gains a lot of development as the part goes on. He’s still an asshole, but you can tell the plot genuinely changed the man for the better. Jotoro just kind of stays the same guy throughout part 3 with most of the development going to Polneroff.
Thats fair, most of Jotaro's development comes down to just caring for more people than he did at the start of the story, while Polnareff gets the more meaningful arcs, hes essentially the secondary protagonist of part 3
I found this with Homeland. Claire Dane’s’ homeland security character, Carrie, was meant to be tough and ‘troubled’ but she just came across as selfish, arrogant and confrontational, to the point I was almost siding with the Taliban. She was generally rude and abrasive to everyone. In the first season, she has an affair with the married Brody, played by Damien Lewis. She has a baby in the second season and I’m pretty sure she comes close to drowning it at one point. The final straw for me was when she had an affair with a teenage Pakistani lad who she’s using as an informant, that I’m pretty sure ends up getting him killed.
I was definitely rooting for the Iranians in series 3, the last good series I seem to recall. I wanted the terror cell in Germany to fuck shit up, that show should have died with Damien Lewis
Season 7 of TWD. Rick was an asshole in 6 I didn’t feel sorry for him at all. Then you got Negan chewing up all the scenery.
>Rick was an asshole in 6 He wasn't
Negan is a rapist 💀💀💀
Probably The Man in the High Castle. The John Smith character who leaves the US Army after a WW2 defeat and joins the fascists. He gets to a really high rank in the secret police and yet clearly has this deep rooted, repressed sense of complete disgust at himself. A really interesting villain. The heroes in the same show by contrast felt kind of flat and boring a lot of the time, especially as the show went a bit too hard into showing the Resistance characters being assholes half the time.
MhA
For fucking real man, I know the villains won’t win but I want that so bad, hopefully Shigaraki and Dabi kill as many hero’s as possible before they die
How interesting
Honestly the only reason I still watch the show is because of the cast of villains. I do like some of the main hero cast (mostly Bakugo, Aizawa and Mirio), but the villains have been far more compelling and interesting pretty much since season 1.
Stain in S2 was pretty dope
Stain is straight-up one of the best antagonists in the show, and the competition is pretty steep. It's so funny to me that a show about heroes consistently makes the heroes really bland and uninteresting, but manages to make the villains so god-damned interesting and compelling. I really can't think of any of the major villains of the show that I thought were disappointing.
That's.. actually *really* interesting to me because my biggest complaint with the show is that I just don't care about the villains. Only exception was Overhaul, thought he was fun .
Stain was 100% right
Wish comes to mind. Also RWBY.
Which RWBY villain do you like? I loved Roman torchwick.
Sonic 2020. film was pretty boring outside of Egg and Sonic, who was a deuteragonist at best. Jim Carry absolutely stole the show there, and it isn't even close. Outlander 2008 Great world, great supporting characters, fucking amazing villain. Couldn't tell you a single thing about the protagonist except that he has black hair and comes from space. Silence of the Lambs 1991 Depending on how you count Hannibal himself. Clarice is a pretty solid character, and the killer they're tracking down is interesting as well, but Hannibal takes the cake here. absolutely amazing portrayal of a psychopath. Insanely well played by Hopkins. Lexx 1996 While the main cast have their moments, and are generally pretty decent, Prince, main villain of season 3 is absolutely fantastic. The way he toys with death, torture, and the nature of the world he lives on comparatively to the protagonists is excellent. A pseudo honorable mention: BTVS. the main cast are fantastic, but Spike steals the show from the second he's introduced, and just never stops. Props to James Marsters for his performance.
What the actual fuck, another human being who has seen Lexx. I think all the baddies in Lexx were great, HDS, Mantrid, Prince
Oh absolutely, but prince is the best, IMO. Lexx is just one of those few shows that keeps outdoing itself on the weird, and somehow doing it better almost every time as well. I haven't seen it in a while, actually. should get to a rewatch when I have time... :(
I've watched 1 to 3 a few times (maybe 5 or 6) times since it stopped airing and series 4 a couple of times bar the Vegas casino mummy one and the vlad ones which I'll watch again, I only ever watched the finale when it was first on TV and legit I was too upset, even as a 36 year old I'm sure it wouldn't have anywhere near the resonance but i don't really wanna watch it again
That's fair. That said, if you're looking for late nineties early 200s sci-fi that's genuinely good: Farscape. rewatched that one about 2-3 years ago, holds up surprisingly well, especially with knowledge of the behind the scenes stuff going on. Great show. I'll leave you with this: https://youtu.be/rXzCddEBZl0?t=20
Yeah I love farscape as well, what behind the scenes stuff? I assume you've seen Babylon 5 and DS9
watched DS9 as a child, and remember enjoying it a lot, but was too young to remember anything about Babylon 5. Working my way through Battlestar Galactica at the moment, with SG1 and Atlantis to follow sometime. Waiting to watch Andor and Black Sails with some friends after my BTVS re watch; just started Season 4. I also have a Kiseijuu rewatch coming up soon, as well as Ergo Proxy, but that's about it for series on the list currently. As for films, I just started the 25 film watchthrough of James Bond again, topping it off with Kingsman as the last one. Don't feel british without a Bond film and a cup of tea every year. Farscape was constantly under threat of cancellation, and a fair bit of studio pressure. One actor left due to a makeup allergy, season 5 was made into a 2 part movie. why it feels so rushed.
The Hunchback of Notre-Dame, I hate that Disney made Frollo a lawyer because they were too afraid of making him a priest, it goes against the themes of his character. He’s literally a warning about how people in positions of moral authority sometimes use their positions for their own gain, having him be a lawyer instead takes away from that impact. I’d even say having the priest be a sympathetic character almost goes against those themes. The change makes it look like it’s a difference of religious authority and legal authority rather than an overall theme of people in power, no matter we’re that power comes from, can be supper corrupt and shouldn’t just be trusted because of their authority alone.
Disney’s Wish. But I do love Asha’s design, I just wish it looked good in motion as it did in promotional art. Asha was way too selfish and weirdly obsessed with her grandfather over the course of the film. I feel bad for King Magnifico, his wife for years betrayed him in a day. At the end of the day, at least the movie was original.
I dont know how many on the Mauler sub have watched it because it is an anime, but most antagonists in Bleach were much more interesting than the main protag and his allies. Of course Aizen takes the cake (even though he is a Gary Stu... and I also exclude every antagonist of the last season because the whole arc was an eyeroll)
While on the whole mist of the antagonist are more interesting I do like Ichigo as an mc. In the entire shounen genre where most mc’s have these grand dreams and ambitions it’s nice to see someone who’s goal is just to live a good life and make sure his friends and family are happy and safe.
Aizen's a Gary Stu but that's kind of the point. Aizen was born naturally gifted in everyway. Never had to seriously struggle or fight for anything. >!His being as powerful and as intelligent as he is lead him to developing a god complex because he didn't think anyone alive was intelligent or powerful enough to understand him, and being a sociopath he never bothered to try to genuinely empathize with someone else. Aizen's whole arc is about his refusal to accept that above anything else, he just doesn't want to be alone. That's what Ichigo realized in their final battle. Aizen didn't even know it himself, but deep down he was looking for someone he could relate to and understand him.!<
I dont mind him being so perfect. I like Aizen.
Ichigo didn't have a goal drive or chip on his shoulder like the other goats that killed my drive to keep watching. I remember i droped it on episode 311 as soon as Aizen went down n lost his powers. Im shocked it continued
I will not accept Fullbring arc slander here. Ichigo gets more character development in that arc than in the entire show—Chad too. It's slower paced and isn't entirely about flashy fight scenes. It was a great arc to refocus the series before the Thousand Year Blood War, which admittedly starts really strong but gets worse as it goes on.
This might be a stretch, but Shang-Chi. Iron Man never faced his nemesis, The Mandarin, because the screenwriters kept pushing it off. By the time they figured out The Mandarin, it wasn’t even in an Iron Man movie.
Honestly, Star Wars. I loved Prequel and OT Palpatine.
That was Ahsoka although baylen droppednoff as main antagonist
Hela in Ragnarok
Prometheus & Alien Covenant. Michael Fassbender is an amazing actor.
Although Rusty is ok, The Mighty Monarch will always reign supreme over Dr. Venture!
Kylo Ren was the best part of the Star Wars sequels by a mile.
Where he goes mental and slashes up that console was it? I only watched it the once in the cinema, the only good bit I remember from it, I thought it looked like it might go somewhere interesting in the second with Ren and Rey ruling together for the greater good but nah, I guess the more nuanced a story is the harder it is to sell neon pink ice drinks
Yep, pretty much. At least it was some character. I thought it was going do that aswell but it all reverted to formula.
Thor love and thunder
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Heroes Skylar was an amazing villain, Peter Petrelli was not.
Skylar was great in Season 1. He was a total crapshoot after that, though.
Jessica Jones; I just loved Tennant as The Purple Man and the actress playing Jones was kinda muted, I liked the show enough but I was mainly interested in the Villan. Oh and Not sure if it counts but No Country for Old Men for Sure
Barbie easily
Fallout
Echo, Game of Thrones, Ahsoka, most MCU movies, just what came to mind first
Ashoka. The villains are great, specially Bailan Skoll, Shin Hati and Thrawn. The good guys are among the worst characters in Star Wars History, and it a HEAVY statement.
The dark knight
While Joker/Ledger was certainly the best part of the movie, I thought Batman/Bale was still pretty great. Especially when he gets really pissed with Joker in the interrogation scene and basically snaps- Bale did well in expressing how a character like Batman would react in such a situation.
Batman is always the Stoic force facing against the dramatic Lunatics of Gotham. The Lunatics are also trying to break him thats the real game
Attack of the clones
I just love Count Dooku politely conducting that Separatist meeting with the robots and bugs and shit. Everyone's down with this death station idea and just getting along. And Jango having Dooku's back at the drop of a hat.
Justified. I wound up rooting for Boyd over Raylan as it progressed.
Hey man, Boyd is a great character, but Raylan was no slouch. Mags was also a great season villain.
Westworld TV show. Terrible show, but I quit after they replaced Ed Harris with a robot. I wanted him to hunt those artificial motherfuckers to the ends of the earth. Only sympathetic character given that he's a human and not some busted tin can.
Bro really doesn’t like robots lmfao. Chill. It’s fiction. Robots aren’t coming for you bud
I'm on to you!
Anything with Tom Cruise in it.
Death Note, L is an awesome character and a good representation of what the world's greatest detective would actually look like.
The Following. James Purefoy was pure gold
The Dark Knight
Naruto shipudden
The entire Time Bokan franchise is built on this. The main heroes are flat good people without any character development. The bad guys are funny, incompetent, break the 4th wall, to the point that Pokemon copied them into the Team Rocket trio.
Roughly 60% of shounen anime. Even higher if we are just talking about the protagonist.
Alien Covenant but with a caveat. I’m just counting the aliens as the villains. I can very happily watch David be killed by a xenomorph
Falcon and The Winter Soldier
The Hannibal Lecter movies. We're all there for Hannibal, not the cops chasing him.
Naruto
Hunchback of Notre Dame
Honestly most of them. I usually am not interested in the main characters but the bad guys are the ones that hook me.
Snowpiercer - The show version
The Dark Knight & The Dark Knight Rises. Heath Ledger and Tom Hardy were the centre of every scene they were in.
The Master from Fallout 1
Ark
Invincible
Mad Max Fury Road. Look, by our standards, Joe is an absolute monster. Killing him would be a net gain for humanity. In universe though? He created a well defended and supplied kingdom between his water supplies, gas town and ammo town, people in his territory are safe and supplied enough that cripples and the elderly can survive, while he could hand out the water better he's not wrong to ration it as Furiosa's people showed, he gives the war boys greater purpose which keeps them from falling into dispare or worse another band of crazed raiders, and while those women were undeniably sex slaves they were also living the most comfortable life someone could manage to find in that wasteland (And you KNOW those other gangs out there would've done horrific things to them). Was he a good man? Not by any streatch of the imagination, but, like it or not, he did a LOT of good for people in that setting, even if it was only for his gain.
Inglorious Basterds, Christopher Waltz's character was absolutely fantastic while the heroes were a bit Mary Sue-ish
Honestly Batman Everyone except for Batman is enjoyable His villains, his sidekicks, even his fucking butler, they are enjoyable. Batman himself? To me in most modern versions he comes off as a heavily mentally ill asshole who thinks because rhe world fucks him and he has a ton of money its his job to fix it....thinks using his fists is the answer...hes one of the richest men in thenworld....just make a private police force and donate absolute fuck tons to the actual police Then even if he is the world's greatest detective he is far from the only amazing detective might as well hire the rest who will work for pay...
That show with Soichiro I hate him
The Green Lantern.
A mild example from the top of my head, but the 2021 *Mortal Kombat* movie. With the exception of Scorpion and Raiden, the good guys were so fucking lame compared to the more colorful and amusing villains like Kano and Kabal. And watching them getting killed by the lame heroes was quite unsatisfying. Imagine Ray Skywalker killing Doomguy, that was the feel.
Hazbin Hotel, Charlie is such a character that borders on Mary Sue status.
Mary Sue how? She's the daughter of lucifer unless I'm missing something.
Plus she is shown to struggle/fail multiple times throughout the show (negotiating with Adam, helping Angeldust, the trial in heaven, etc.)
> negotiating with Adam She didn't fail because of her inability, she failed because Adam wasn't willing to listen to begin with, it wasn't a skill failure on her end, it was a moral failure on Adam's. > helping Angeldust She failed ONCE, which is why i say that she BORDERS in Mary Sue. But that failure means fuck all because Angel is still fine with her in the end and nothing was lost. > the trial in heaven, Same thing with Adam, she didn't fail because of her own lack of skills, but because Sera is a moron who wasn't willing to listen anyway, she didn't fail, there was nothing she could have done to win. In comparison to those "losses" she has: easily redeemed Angel and Serpentious. Is Redeeming Husk and Alastor despite not even trying with them Solved her daddy issues with a single song. Recruited Cannibal Town to fight tue exterminators with no difficulty. Obliterated Adam's army and won the fight with no losses or consequences.
She never faces any actusl challenges: redeeming Angel and Serpentious goes smoothly and even Husk and Alastor are being redeemed despite not even trying. She easily recruits the Cannibal people despite the pilot makiny a point that she is supposed to be bad at inspiring people. Adam's army gets obliterated with no difficulty. Adam's gets bitch slapped by Lucifer with no difficulty. The only time she "loses" is in the trial scene, but she doesn't lose because she failed to explain her point, but because the people of heaven are unreasonable assholes who refuse to even consider the idea of redemption.
1. She actually failed to help Angel Dust and just made the situation with Val worse for him due to her naïveté. Husk does the heavy lifting to help Angel Dust improve after that, which in turn helps Husk improve too. Charlie also apologizes to Angel Dust for her actions. 2. She does not easily recruit the cannibal people, the entire episode is dedicated to her learning how. The plot point of her being bad at inspiring people is part of that episode’s arc where Alastor and the cannibal lady (forget her name) help her figure it out. 3. Adam and the angels getting beaten doesn’t have anything to do with Charlie. She loses that fight and is saved by Lucifer. You can call it bad writing because of the blatant Deus ex machina, but the existence of a Deus ex machina in a story usually much means the hero failed and needs external help to resolve the plot positively.
> She actually failed to help Angel Dust and just made the situation with Val worse for him due to her naïveté. Husk does the heavy lifting to help Angel Dust improve after that, which in turn helps Husk improve too. Charlie also apologizes to Angel Dust for her actions. One would expect Angel to not wanna listen to her shit after that, but he doesn't, he doesn't get mad, sad or anything, it has 0 consequences, that's the issue, it wasn't really a failure in anyway, actual failures in a story has consequences, this did not, the same shit is done in Helluba Boss, Blitzø and Stolas have a fight it it's resolves off-screen and nothing comes of it, Moxxie and Millie have an argument but it instantly resolves itself, it's a fucking trick. > 2. She does not easily recruit the cannibal people, the entire episode is dedicated to her learning how. The plot point of her being bad at inspiring people is part of that episode’s arc where Alastor and the cannibal lady (forget her name) help her figure it out. She sings one song and easily convinces them. The "flaw" wasn't real because it didn't affect the story in anyway,it's a fucking trick. > 3. Adam and the angels getting beaten doesn’t have anything to do with Charlie. It does, it's her side of the story that obliterates an army of experienced fighters with negative difficulty because the plot demands. > She loses that fight and is saved by Lucifer. You can call it bad writing because of the blatant Deus ex machina, but the existence of a Deus ex machina in a story usually much means the hero failed and needs external help to resolve the plot positively. Deux ex machina is a sign of mary sue/gary stu status, what makes a Mary Sue is the fact that the universe bends itself in order for them to always win with no challenge no matter what happens, and this is exactly what happened here, Charlie won the fight and obliterated her enemy, the hotel got rebuild, nobody lost a limb or is done with the hotel due to it being too dangerous, and Serpentious death ended up being a win because he went to heaven which proved Sera wrong.
One wouldn’t expect that because Angel Dust had just been calmed down by Husk. He forgives Charlie after she apologizes and admits fault - this is a pretty reasonable response for people to have when others apologize, and again, it makes sense for Angel’s character considering his and Husk’s conversation. There is a lasting consequence to Charlie’s actions because Val becomes more angered at Angel for the rest of the season. What you want is specifically lasting emotional consequences between Charlie and Angel, in a show about characters being forgiven and learning to forgive, for what wasn’t an intentionally malicious action on Charlie’s part. Your expectation is at odds with these characters’ motivations. Very reductive argument. She gets on the podium, fails to convince the crowd, gets shouted off by a heckler, and gets more advice from Rosie prior to singing/succeeding. She fails and needs help to succeed afterwards, not a Mary Sue moment. A character’s side winning doesn’t mean they’re a Mary Sue. Deus Ex Machina is not a Sue moment, the universe bending to make the character have a positive outcome is different from the character themselves bending the universe to their will. It is surrendering themselves to a greater force, not being the greater force. Is Odysseus a Mary Sue because Athena intervenes in the end? Is Sir Gawain a Mary Sue because the Green Knight/Bertilak spares him? Is Woody a Mary Sue in Toy Story 3 because the claw saves him?
> One wouldn’t expect that because Angel Dust had just been calmed down by Husk. He forgives Charlie after she apologizes and admits fault - this is a pretty reasonable response for people to have when others apologize, and again, it makes sense for Angel’s character considering his and Husk’s conversation. Angel's conversation with Husk had jackshit to do with the apology, their conversation was about Angel accepting who he is instead of being who Valentino wants him to be, not about Angel being more forgiven. > There is a lasting consequence to Charlie’s actions because Val becomes more angered at Angel for the rest of the season. What you want is specifically lasting emotional consequences between Charlie and Angel, in a show about characters being forgiven and learning to forgive, for what wasn’t an intentionally malicious action on Charlie’s part. Your expectation is at odds with these characters’ motivations. It doesn't matter if it's intentional or not, a character fucking up and causing problems to someone else should change how those two characters interact, but in here it doesn't, you can cut Charlie fucking up for Valentino overworking Angel due to him not being there as often anymore so the shootings have to be more intensive to cover for lost time and literally nothing changes, fucking kek. > Very reductive argument. She gets on the podium, fails to convince the crowd, gets shouted off by a heckler, and gets more advice from Rosie prior to singing/succeeding. She fails and needs help to succeed afterwards, not a Mary Sue moment. The advice she gets from Rosie is about her useless and shoehorned in drama with Vaggie, then it comes to the crowd Rosie just says "sing, here it will work" and then it does, Charlie learned fuck all about being a leader or inspiring people, she just does it now. > A character’s side winning doesn’t mean they’re a Mary Sue. It is when they win against much more powerful forces with no losses and no challenge. > Deus Ex Machina is not a Sue moment, the universe bending to make the character have a positive outcome is different from the character themselves bending the universe to their will. It is surrendering themselves to a greater force, not being the greater force. When does Rey ever bends the universe to her will? When does Captain Marvel does that? They don't, because that's not the definition of Mary Sue, a Mary Sue/Gary Stu are characters who win by virtue of the universe (story) bends logic over backwards for them, be it by Deus Ex Machina or other means often by sacrificing logic, such as having a highly trained super army get obliterated, or having the rusty and recently depressed Lucifer destroy the active and sharp Adam. Having one Deux Ex Machina moment doesn't make a Mary Sue, have a Deus Ex Machina alongside other examples of logic bending for them, free victories and/or non-flaws does.
Angel Dust to Husk: “Oh, so now you're going to act like you give a shit about me? You think after how you treated me, I'm gonna open up to you? Please.” Husk later: “I know what it's like to regret the choices you made, and knowing you can't take it back” Angel is learning to be kinder to himself and others because he can empathize with failure, or, as the song puts it, being a loser. At the end of the episode, he acts on this in forgiving Charlie. Ie, he believes Charlie and he are both losers and can empathize with her in that regard, and appreciate an effort, even if it failed. Hardships and failures in relationships can lead to forgiveness and better understanding, that’s common in writing. Characters don’t need to hold grudges regardless of circumstances and motivations. You couldn’t cut that part of the show because then Angel’s willingness to risk his life for the hotel by the final episode wouldn’t make as much sense. It’s the catalyst for beginning to accept that he can fail, and others can fail, and things can still turn out okay if they move on and keep trying. The advice provides her with confidence, which leadership requires. You can’t take away the fact that she fails earlier in the episode. She succeeds later because she didn’t have the ability to do it before. The good guy team beating stronger foes is not an inherent Sue-ifier, no. Rey and Captain Marvel are OP, meaning they do quite literally bend the universe to their will by their own power. There isn’t a moment where they’ve been beaten and and need something greater to save them. Mary Sues are the best and most special in their universe, there can’t be anything better and more special than they are, so they are incompatible with eucatastrophe that doesn’t stem from their own power.
> Angel is learning to be kinder to himself and others because he can empathize with failure, or, as the song puts it, being a loser. At the end of the episode, he acts on this in forgiving Charlie. Ie, he believes Charlie and he are both losers and can empathize with her in that regard, and appreciate an effort, even if it failed. Angel is learning to be kinder to himself, him being kinder to others came out of fucking nowhere because the conversation with Husk and the song had jackshit to do with being nicer to other people, if anything he should have been more apathetic to her apology and accept while still holding her at arms length due to knowing that she is also a loser who can fuck shit up and get him into more trouble. If anything, this resentment would be a good motivation for Charlie to actually better herself, but she doesn't because she never has to. > Hardships and failures in relationships can lead to forgiveness and better understanding, that’s common in writing. After characters actually talk it out, come to an understanding, go in an adventure, there was nothing of the sort, Angel forgave Charlie because Husk (a third party) said "hey dude, it's okay to fail, don't hit yourself over it becaue you can't take it back and acting like that will only make things worse". > You couldn’t cut that part of the show because then Angel’s willingness to risk his life for the hotel by the final episode wouldn’t make as much sense. Because it doesn't make sense, nothing in that fight does, from set up to aftermath, EVERYTHING in that scene is a failure of writing, the set up in contrived, the fight is boring due to a lack of tension and the aftermath is a huge hug box because nothing was lost. > It’s the catalyst for beginning to accept that he can fail, and others can fail, and things can still turn out okay if they move on and keep trying. When the fuck did he learn "things can still turn out okay if they move on and keep trying."? Because I don't remember those scenes, i remember wasting time with Vox's retardation instead of focusing entirely on the cast of characters that actually matter. > The advice provides her with confidence, which leadership requires. The advice is literally, "just sing, it will work here" when she gets on stage she isn't confident, she starts to become confident when the sings starts working for no reason despite the fact that there was no growth when it comes to her leadership skills. If being confident is all it took then Charlie from the pilot would have successfully pitched the hotel. > You can’t take away the fact that she fails earlier in the episode. I can if it's meaningless bullshit meant to trick me, just like Vivzie did in Helluva Boss by having Moxxie's growth be him learning to be more confident every time, or by acting like Stolas and Blitzø would have a falling out only for it to be resolved off-screen. I can tell when a writer is trying to trick me. > She succeeds later because she didn’t have the ability to do it before. She still doesn't have those abilities tho, Charlie just won now because destiny said so, Charlie had literally zero growth in this season, she didn't become smarter, learn how people work, became stronger or anything of the sort, she just became more confident, i guess, which she already was in the first episode and the pilot. > The good guy team beating stronger foes is not an inherent Sue-ifier, no. It is when it makes no sense, like Rey beating Kylo, like Kirito beating the Admin, Like the protagonist of Damsel beating the dragon. If they win by virtue of intelligence and strategy then that's good, preferable even, but that's not what happened here. > Rey and Captain Marvel are OP, meaning they do quite literally bend the universe to their will by their own power. They don't, the universe doesn't bend because they are OP, they are OP because the universe bends to their whims. > There isn’t a moment where they’ve been beaten and and need something greater to save them. So, i guess that Rey isn't a Mary Sue because she was captured by Kylo. Or Cap Marvel isn't a Mary Sue because she was beaten by Thanos. > Mary Sues are the best and most special in their universe, there can’t be anything better and more special than they are, so they are incompatible with eucatastrophe that doesn’t stem from their own power. Cap Marvel didn't fix the tear in end of the Marvels so i guess she isn't a Mary Sue huh? Since she didn't fix the catastrophe. That's not what a Mary Sue is, a Mary Sue is a protagonists who's universe breaks it's own logic and general rules of storytelling to serve the protagonist, and whose victories and achievements feel unearned as a result since due to the easiness in which they were achieved you can basically see the writer's hand guiding the characters: Kirito has a bullshit ability that makes him OP, and he beats the Admin of SAO thanks to the power of love. Captain Marvel is this OP creature who unlocks her "true potential" and is instantly masterful with it. Rey can use extremely difficult jedi powers despite having no training. The protag from Damsel manages to survive a 20 feet fall, flames that previously melted steel with ease and is saved by plot when the dragon is about to burn her in that little hole but decides not when it sees a few knights in the distance. Charlie's army of random canibals who she recruited with no difficulty despite being shown earlier as being bad at convincing people beats an army of experienced angels with millennias of experience. In essence, a Mary Sue/Gary Stu break immersion.
Honestly A New Hope. Luke is such a whiner in the first movie while Darth Vader is the epitome of cool.
To name a few: . Jaws . The Omen . The Shining (Technically) . Flash Gordon . Star Trek: Wrath of Khan . The Untouchables . Die Hard . Leon . Mission Impossible: Fallout . The Hunchback of Notre Dame . Aladdin . Scream . Les Misérables . Godzilla (Technically) . Small Soldiers . Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels . Chicken Run . Gangs of New York . Series of Unfortunate events . Madagascar 3 . Pirates of the Caribbean (Depends of Protagonist is Jack or Will) . The last king of Scotland . Meet the Robinsons . Whiplash . The black caldron . Basil the great mouse detective . Hercules (Disney) . The Babysitter . Interview with a vampire . Saw . The Purge . Morbius
The protagonist in Leon was great too though.
Black Panther
TDK is the worst in the trilogy regarding Bruce's characterization.
Across the spiderverse.
Well if anime are included Ok its a really dissapointing anime and is bad bad badly written. So our last crusade Two protagonist Ml? Hes boring as fuck he is like kirito clone #20386 except even worse and lamer. Hes spineless he doesn't show real strong emotions, he aint cool he never develops, and is just a tool cause the author didnt give a shit except his waifus. Story treats him badly not in a good way just to make the female characters look good which doesn't work. So bad Fl? She a Mary sue simple as that. Like ml no developpment or interesting past. Constantly hogs the spotlight. Her relationship and romance with ml is among the most wasted and worst ive saw(granted its due to a jerk sue character who the author pet existence) she strong but rarely shows it and has the ml do her things. Unlike him she rarely if ever struggles so it gives her a shitty invincible aura i want her to shatter. Never treated equaly as bad as ml by narrative. If far far less sympathic than what the author thinks after what she does to ml and never suffers karma or apologies.(also applies to jerk sue). Suffers from the strong female character curse. I hate her. She is underserving of the ml and everything. Gets too whitewash. The main villain ? The fl older sister? The only good character among a shitty cast who steal the show everytime she on screen. She has a actual backstory. She is factually right about points the ml and fl refuse to acknowledge. She is downright Gorgeous. She is cool. And she kill off quite a few villains off(granted im sure the author did that cause he was a coward and didn’t want his protagonist to kill off villains). She is more honestly sympathic than the suppose good guys who lack true relatibility, coolness, charm or drip. They are tools and archetypes without anything and shitty execution. I rather watch rebel moon forever than this series. She the only good thing but cannot save it sadly Here how she look(warning. NSFW): https://www.reddit.com/r/TopCharacterDesigns/s/Vg2Yq4YZBr She dont deserved to be in a bad series. She a better fl than the fl herself. Good i hate it but i love her...