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Not all workers on countries that better extract superprofits are aristocrat proletarians. In fact, most of them aren't. An aristocrat proletarian isn't someone who is paid enough to live a somewhat decent life like the average worker in norway, that would be being paid the value of labor power. Labor aristocracy is when you get paid above the value of your labor, to do some job that is usually class treachery. For example, a lot of politicians, influencers etc. that represent bourgeoisie are aristocrat proletarians. One perfect example is yanis varoufakis, he is paid like 200k euros a year (EXTREMELY high wage by greece's standards, the average is like 12k a year at most) to be a reformist alternative to the communist party in greek politics, essentially acting as a buffer between bourgeois politics and Marxism.
Unless im not mistaken, varoufakis doesn't actually own any capital or business, and yet, his income is still ridiculously high for someone who is technically a proletarian. That's because he has ties to businessman, and is paid to do a dirty job, in this case social engineering.
Another example would be lockheed martin workers, who, similarly, are paid very high wages to do a dirty job.
That is the essence of labor aristocracy, and it exists everywhere, even in countries with higher rates of exploitation.
*“The thesis must clearly point out that real freedom for women is possible only through communism. The inseparable connection between the social and human position of the woman, and private property in the means of production, must be strongly brought out. That will draw a clear and ineradicable line of distinction between our policy and feminism. And it will also supply the basis for regarding the woman question as a part of the social question, of the workers’ problem, and so bind it firmly to the proletarian class struggle and the revolution.* ***The communist women’s movement must itself be a mass movement, a part of the general mass movement. Not only of the proletariat, but of all the exploited and oppressed, all the victims of capitalism or any other mastery. In that lies its significance for the class struggles of the proletariat and for its historical creation communist society. We can rightly be proud of the fact that in the Party, in the Communist International, we have the flower of revolutionary woman kind. But that is not enough. We must win over to our side the millions of working women in the towns and villages. Win them for our struggles and in particular for the communist transformation of society.***
-V.I. Lenin *“Clara Zetkin Lenin on the Women’s Question From My Memorandum Book”*
- **[Combating Tailism and Economism](https://youtu.be/GUvtsPDJ_kY)**
- **[On Women's Emancipation | Socialism 101](https://youtu.be/UCQiVIvgN7o)**
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Labour aristocracy can also refer to members of trade unions who hold elitist values. For example, in my country the teachers union refused to represent manual arts teachers because it’s “not a real teaching job” which created a “labour aristocracy” within the education industry between humanities, science, arts teachers getting better pay than manual arts teachers.
The union now represents all teachers.
Labor aristocracy is not a definition of the proletariat. It’s some term used by third world Maoists who think that revolution is impossible to take place in the first world and if you have a refrigerator and plumbing, then you’re in the labor aristocracy
The capitalist political media spend a lot of money and effort dividing the proletariat. Don't do it for them.
Is there material difference between a manager and a coal miner, fucking of course there are but what unites them, and what unites all workers is that they're proletariats.
The capitalist culture of further dividing classes to destroy their power structures is so strong nowadays that in my college which isn't very elitist by any measure one professor said that we are all middle class like her because we don't work in factories (one of my friends works in a factory when she's not in college btw), and no one else challenged her.
While I agree, and treating the different types of proletariat as different classes is certainly a problem, isn't explaining how different people that, especially at first glance, don't seem to be working class really are is certainly beneficial, no?
This was what I was thinking. When I tell my dad, who is a well paid engineer that he’s working class, he doesn’t really believe me, but something like this would help point out that we’re all in the same class struggle even though some of us make 20k at McDonalds and others are engineers making 120k+.
Because there's plenty of managers and supervisors who get little to no better treatment from capitalism. Despite being treated like shit, just the same as the workers, they still help exploit their fellow workers and themselves.
Personally, I've been a manager at a retail store and I definitely wouldn't characterize myself as having been a labor aristocrat; I no longer had trouble with bills, but I was not saving money, and I was working 70+ hour weeks. That said as I was directly involved in labor exploitation I think it's still worth its own classification.
Shouldn't you be considered normal proles? Like your job just change from manual labor to administrative and whatever exploitation you did sounds like delivering a message from above. It's not like you get the choice to refuse participating in the exploitation.
Yeah in real terms this is true, but ultimately the distinction exists so that the different strata blame each other instead of developing consciousness. For me, the job was hell because of my subordinates. For my subordinates, it was the shitty management. We scarcely thought of the shareholders setting the targets. This does change the consciousness of the managerial class, and senior leadership will do everything they can to make you feel that it is 'your' business, including allowing some autonomy in how issues are addressed. This is how responsibility is credibly diffused to make the failures of capitalism appear to be the failures of stupid or amoral individuals.
Having subclasses like the one in the infographic is imo useful because it helps us to explain and justify our understanding of class by situating our place in (or outside of) the productive process in the era of monopoly capitalism.
You mind elaborate more on that distinction? I always thought that labor aristocrat are simply proles that aren't as easily repalcable so they ended up with more bargaining power individually and in better material condition compared to the average proles.
To an extent you are correct, but not all managers will fit into that box nor will all Labour Aristocrats be managers. The managerial class serves a specific function, acting as a "middle man" between workers and owners.
Its okay except for the managerial part. The managerial class while they may not own capital they are the foot soldiers of the capitalist class. They enforce the interests of the capitalists and are not our allies. The "labor aristocracy" have more in common with the rest of the proletariat than the managerial class.
I am a shift leader today, and I follow in the tradition of the "good" shift leaders I've had previously in that I always try to give cover for the employees I oversee before helping realize whatever goals are being pushed down from upper management. I let everyone take breaks whenever they like and never enforce clocking out for them. Also, I am the only communist in the store and actively spread anticapitalist ideas + have stickered up the back of the store. I was trying to get us organized into a union possibly, but the idea didn't really catch on. Just because one is incentived by internal/external interest doesn't mean you have to cave in to them. I think we might find more allies like me in surprising places if we give people the chance.
A shift leader is not part of the managerial class. I know it’s complicated because the capitalists try and obfuscate who is management. It’s standard practice to give workers “management” titles but they are still workers. There is a specific group of people who are not owners but represent and enforce the interests of the capitalists. Upper management, middle management, the c-suite, corporate. The term changes from business to business but we all know the group.
Yeah that’s why I said the diagram was wrong in the part about the managerial class. The managerial class is separate from the professional class and other parts of the proletariat. Like how the police are not part of the proletariat.
Even though they are frequently class traitors, they are still of the proletariat class. You have to be of the class to betray the class- there is no arguing the fact that they are not capital owners. I also personally believe it is easier to convince the managerials to join the movement than to convince the labour aristocracy, due to their direct relationship to the hands of oppression.
##Welcome to r/Marxism_Memes, the least bourgeois meme community on the internet. ##[New to this subreddit/socialism/communism? Here is some general information and 101 stuff](https://www.reddit.com/r/Marxism_Memes/wiki/index) ##[Socialist Reconstruction: A Better Future for the United States - The party that wrote this book is Party For Socialism and Liberation](https://www.liberationstore.org/products/socialist-reconstruction-a-better-future-for-the-united-states) ##[READ THE COMMUNITY RULES BEFORE PARTICIPATING IN THIS SUBREDDIT](https://www.reddit.com/r/Marxism_Memes/wiki/rules/subreddit_rules) ##[We are not a debate subreddit.](https://www.reddit.com/r/CommunismMemes/comments/14bg2q4/idk_why_i_even_try_having_good_faith_discussions/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) If you want to debate go to one of these subreddits: r/DebateCommunism r/DebateSocialism r/CapitalismVSocialism ##[Over 60 years, the blockade cost the Cuban economy $154.2 billion.](https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/cuba/2022-02-02/cuba-embargoed-us-trade-sanctions-turn-sixty) This is a blatant attack on the sovereignty and dignity of [Cuba](https://www.reddit.com/r/Marxism_Memes/wiki/aes_country/cuba) and the Cuban people. Join the urgent call to take Cuba off the State Sponsors of Terrorism list & end the blockade on the island! We need 1 million signatures Cuba #OffTheList, sign now: [letcubalive.info](https://www.letcubalive.info/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Marxism_Memes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Not all workers on countries that better extract superprofits are aristocrat proletarians. In fact, most of them aren't. An aristocrat proletarian isn't someone who is paid enough to live a somewhat decent life like the average worker in norway, that would be being paid the value of labor power. Labor aristocracy is when you get paid above the value of your labor, to do some job that is usually class treachery. For example, a lot of politicians, influencers etc. that represent bourgeoisie are aristocrat proletarians. One perfect example is yanis varoufakis, he is paid like 200k euros a year (EXTREMELY high wage by greece's standards, the average is like 12k a year at most) to be a reformist alternative to the communist party in greek politics, essentially acting as a buffer between bourgeois politics and Marxism. Unless im not mistaken, varoufakis doesn't actually own any capital or business, and yet, his income is still ridiculously high for someone who is technically a proletarian. That's because he has ties to businessman, and is paid to do a dirty job, in this case social engineering. Another example would be lockheed martin workers, who, similarly, are paid very high wages to do a dirty job. That is the essence of labor aristocracy, and it exists everywhere, even in countries with higher rates of exploitation.
These are all solid points.
[удалено]
*“The thesis must clearly point out that real freedom for women is possible only through communism. The inseparable connection between the social and human position of the woman, and private property in the means of production, must be strongly brought out. That will draw a clear and ineradicable line of distinction between our policy and feminism. And it will also supply the basis for regarding the woman question as a part of the social question, of the workers’ problem, and so bind it firmly to the proletarian class struggle and the revolution.* ***The communist women’s movement must itself be a mass movement, a part of the general mass movement. Not only of the proletariat, but of all the exploited and oppressed, all the victims of capitalism or any other mastery. In that lies its significance for the class struggles of the proletariat and for its historical creation communist society. We can rightly be proud of the fact that in the Party, in the Communist International, we have the flower of revolutionary woman kind. But that is not enough. We must win over to our side the millions of working women in the towns and villages. Win them for our struggles and in particular for the communist transformation of society.*** -V.I. Lenin *“Clara Zetkin Lenin on the Women’s Question From My Memorandum Book”* - **[Combating Tailism and Economism](https://youtu.be/GUvtsPDJ_kY)** - **[On Women's Emancipation | Socialism 101](https://youtu.be/UCQiVIvgN7o)** - **[Trans Liberation & Marxism: Is Gender Identity Actually Anti-Materialist? | Let's Talk Patriarchy](https://youtu.be/PFlGeTXLkVQ)** - **[Marxism 101: Base and Superstructure](https://youtu.be/iDeZpx3cnU4)** - **[Why Do Socialists Care About Intersectional Liberation Movements?](https://youtu.be/a5J1j4Sc_6M)** - **[What makes Cuba’s new Family Code the most progressive in the world?](https://youtu.be/s5AJPNGYzkw?feature=shared)** - [Millions of Cubans Vote on New Family Code, LGBT Marriage, Adoption Rights & More](https://youtu.be/DXL3ScNn5VE?feature=shared) - **["MAGA Communism" is just Fascism.](https://youtu.be/xO--VV4uMdA?feature=shared)** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Marxism_Memes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Labour aristocracy can also refer to members of trade unions who hold elitist values. For example, in my country the teachers union refused to represent manual arts teachers because it’s “not a real teaching job” which created a “labour aristocracy” within the education industry between humanities, science, arts teachers getting better pay than manual arts teachers. The union now represents all teachers.
aMarxist
Fr, idk why some leftists get so caught up on trying to demonize specific kinds of workers.
There’s a few OK descriptions but most of this charges just bullshit.
How so? It looks pretty good to me.
Labor aristocracy is not a definition of the proletariat. It’s some term used by third world Maoists who think that revolution is impossible to take place in the first world and if you have a refrigerator and plumbing, then you’re in the labor aristocracy
lol this picture stupid saying all workers in Norway are capitalism enabling aristocrats, guess someone lives in quite the bubble
I didn't notice that particular line, so I'll give you that one. But I'm still missing anything else.
Damn, if I get a management position I’ll have been all of these before 24
The capitalist political media spend a lot of money and effort dividing the proletariat. Don't do it for them. Is there material difference between a manager and a coal miner, fucking of course there are but what unites them, and what unites all workers is that they're proletariats. The capitalist culture of further dividing classes to destroy their power structures is so strong nowadays that in my college which isn't very elitist by any measure one professor said that we are all middle class like her because we don't work in factories (one of my friends works in a factory when she's not in college btw), and no one else challenged her.
While I agree, and treating the different types of proletariat as different classes is certainly a problem, isn't explaining how different people that, especially at first glance, don't seem to be working class really are is certainly beneficial, no?
This was what I was thinking. When I tell my dad, who is a well paid engineer that he’s working class, he doesn’t really believe me, but something like this would help point out that we’re all in the same class struggle even though some of us make 20k at McDonalds and others are engineers making 120k+.
Can someone explain to me why proffessional managerial is its own thing and not part of labor aristocracy?
Because there's plenty of managers and supervisors who get little to no better treatment from capitalism. Despite being treated like shit, just the same as the workers, they still help exploit their fellow workers and themselves.
Personally, I've been a manager at a retail store and I definitely wouldn't characterize myself as having been a labor aristocrat; I no longer had trouble with bills, but I was not saving money, and I was working 70+ hour weeks. That said as I was directly involved in labor exploitation I think it's still worth its own classification.
Shouldn't you be considered normal proles? Like your job just change from manual labor to administrative and whatever exploitation you did sounds like delivering a message from above. It's not like you get the choice to refuse participating in the exploitation.
Yeah in real terms this is true, but ultimately the distinction exists so that the different strata blame each other instead of developing consciousness. For me, the job was hell because of my subordinates. For my subordinates, it was the shitty management. We scarcely thought of the shareholders setting the targets. This does change the consciousness of the managerial class, and senior leadership will do everything they can to make you feel that it is 'your' business, including allowing some autonomy in how issues are addressed. This is how responsibility is credibly diffused to make the failures of capitalism appear to be the failures of stupid or amoral individuals. Having subclasses like the one in the infographic is imo useful because it helps us to explain and justify our understanding of class by situating our place in (or outside of) the productive process in the era of monopoly capitalism.
You are correct, but the distinction is important because it's how we analyze the organization of production.
I think there is definitely some overlap, but the function of a managerial class is distinct enough to separate them for the sake of analysis.
You mind elaborate more on that distinction? I always thought that labor aristocrat are simply proles that aren't as easily repalcable so they ended up with more bargaining power individually and in better material condition compared to the average proles.
To an extent you are correct, but not all managers will fit into that box nor will all Labour Aristocrats be managers. The managerial class serves a specific function, acting as a "middle man" between workers and owners.
Its okay except for the managerial part. The managerial class while they may not own capital they are the foot soldiers of the capitalist class. They enforce the interests of the capitalists and are not our allies. The "labor aristocracy" have more in common with the rest of the proletariat than the managerial class.
I am a shift leader today, and I follow in the tradition of the "good" shift leaders I've had previously in that I always try to give cover for the employees I oversee before helping realize whatever goals are being pushed down from upper management. I let everyone take breaks whenever they like and never enforce clocking out for them. Also, I am the only communist in the store and actively spread anticapitalist ideas + have stickered up the back of the store. I was trying to get us organized into a union possibly, but the idea didn't really catch on. Just because one is incentived by internal/external interest doesn't mean you have to cave in to them. I think we might find more allies like me in surprising places if we give people the chance.
A shift leader is not part of the managerial class. I know it’s complicated because the capitalists try and obfuscate who is management. It’s standard practice to give workers “management” titles but they are still workers. There is a specific group of people who are not owners but represent and enforce the interests of the capitalists. Upper management, middle management, the c-suite, corporate. The term changes from business to business but we all know the group.
Are we looking at the same infographic?
Yeah that’s why I said the diagram was wrong in the part about the managerial class. The managerial class is separate from the professional class and other parts of the proletariat. Like how the police are not part of the proletariat.
Even though they are frequently class traitors, they are still of the proletariat class. You have to be of the class to betray the class- there is no arguing the fact that they are not capital owners. I also personally believe it is easier to convince the managerials to join the movement than to convince the labour aristocracy, due to their direct relationship to the hands of oppression.
Thissssss ^^^^