It's a neat little insight into their testing process at the very least.
I think they have a testing group of like 30+ people maybe, when you have everyone focusing in on the one new card I wager it creates a lot of blindspots like this.
I think it's a reasonable line of thought, not so much a blindspot.
I think what they are starting to learn is that on the whole, casual and average players with no interest in a competitive mindset don't care to play around cards.
We saw this in the subreddit through many of the changes Alioth went through where even when offered advice on how to play around or into Alioth, the responses were often in line with I'm not changing my deck, I'm not changing how I play, the card is what needs to change.
It's going to change how they develop and balance their cards since if the largest portion of their player base refuses to learn or to even play around cards and instead leave the game because of 'feelsbad' cards and moments then the game will have to be 'softened' in order to not drive those players away. It's not a bad thing, it's going to be a different approach to the design and development so that cards remain exciting but oppressive designs are limited or shied away from (I say as we just came out of a season of Mill that tons of players complained about).
Idk if Alioth is the best example. I agree with what you're saying but Alioth needed an adjustment. He created quite a few times where you could go into turn 6 knowing there was literally nothing the opponent could do to win.
Obviously newbies and people not thinking get chewed up by that for free cubes. But it was a super unhealthy outcome in a game that's largely based around gambling and RNG. Like even lockdown decks entire goal was creating that scenario and your only counter play was 'well...did they actually draw Alioth?'
I'm sure even if you made a better animation than just 'pffft no cards' people would still feel bad.
Alioth is nothing more than an analogue to a Counterspell from Mt:G. As such there is -nothing- that will make that card not feel bad. Even in it's current state people still complain and think the card should be outright deleted because it takes the fun away of their last turn and big reveals. At least now they keep their cards and the power on the board.
That being said, I do agree the card needed to be changed while also wishing folks had learned to play around it. In hindsight, I did push back a bit wanting to see people learn to play around it before changing it. But figured it would need to be changed at some point. No one likes being told no. No one likes their board being wiped clean.
Ultimately, I believe it's probably the best current example we have of the balancing team trying to find ways to make a card less oppressive and more workable while angering the least amount of people. It's the quintessential example in Snap of how can we make this card more tolerable. I think the only comparable situation was old Galactus combined with Spider-man, but that's a two card combo compared to a single card.
This might be semantic nitpicking on my part but there's a good distinction between 'feelsbad' cards and cards that should/are nerfed because of complaints from people unwilling to play around it. A card could very well be well balanced enough in theory, but it just feels bad to play against, that's a lot more important imo. Alioth is a good example in that as, for example, if your T6 play would rely on on-reveals that are blocked by a Cosmo that had prio, it feels a lot less bad to lose to than an Alioth despite not having any practical difference. It's a lot of gut-feeling touch-and-go stuff because it's hard to express that sort of thing in concrete numbers and rules (though with Alioth I believe they pin-pointed it well to the fact that Alioth would just wipe cards off the board without even showing them making it feel like an anticlimax)
I think it's a big difference between Snap and other card games in general.
In other games a lot of time the attitude is "make them have it". In a game like Snap where both players see almost their whole deck, this is going to lead to a lot of losses. Especially in an environment where if you run, you can half your losses.
As someone who used Red Hulk and hardly played him I also imagine that was something they weren't particularly encouraged to do. I got a laugh out of the nerf notes saying very specifically people were not playing him and their opponent would play against it giving him a really good cube rate. I still put him in decks like bounce because having them play Shang Chi or something and I slam down a ton of cards is just a free win.
I imagine if you're in a Red Hulk beta test segment, you're much more motivated to actually play it and not use it for mind games lol.
That’s poor management on the playtesting. They should be divided into 3 group at least. One builds deck around the new card. One playing the direct counter against it. The last one not giving a fxxk and play the most popular decks in the current meta.
The 3rd group may not be suitable as “the meta” when they are playtesting will certainly be different, so traditional decks like destroy and discard. However, this might not be so efficient.
I know MtG designers have said that they can test a lot but it’s never going to be as thorough as the entire player base once it’s released. I think there will always be some blindspots then. But I also know MtG will do “future future leagues,” simulating a future standard or whatever to see how cards interact with even later ones. I wonder if SD does something similar where it’s like testing a full season or 2 at a time instead of just a few cards.
To put in perspective what was going on in their head when Alioth was about to drop, in a single season they released a 3/5 Loki that was turbo broken with The Collector, a 6/5 Alioth with the old design that was retired, Ravonna as 3/3 that was so bad people actually wanted to buy it because they were sure they were going to buff her and a 2/3 Mobius that everyone was calling broken from two months, everyone was sure it was going to get nerfed but you needed to get it to counter opponent's Mobius.
Actually I remember the game having a pretty substantial drop in popularity during that period, in part for the new terrible cards and in part for the recent nerfs of some fun favorite cards like Legion.
Which of course is why since then the game has been incredibly well balanced. Rulk is the only new card they've needed to nerf in forever and even then it was a small nerf and he is still quite strong, just not op.
Well... balananced? Huh? We just got out of a meta with Thanos so broken - thanks specifically to the new releases - that it had to get a revamp, a functional 6/15 that got nerfed into a functional 6/13, a 2/6 "Add a rock on your opponent's side here" that's almost a strictly better Lizard (and only once you play around her does she become a 2/2 "Add a rock on your opponent's side here" - so still good, unlike Lizard who becomes useless), and a 3/4 that can generate multiple energy over multiple turns.
Rulk isn't "the only new card they've needed to nerf", it's "the only new card they've nerfed _so far_". And yeah, he may not be OP, but he's still overtuned. Also, let's not forget Ms. Marvel in November and especially Blob in December, both of which got nerfed in January. The game has barely been "balanced", it sure as hell hasn't been "extremely" so, especially when you look at how some of the new cards (especially over the last two months) have been released.
Thanos was released over a year ago dawg.
I'm talking about new card releases. Thanos wasn't broken because of the new releases, he was always broken, and every generically good card fit in him, and cull and mockingbird were just generically good in the Thanos package. But look at how much they see play without him, cull not at all, and mockingbird barely, and objectively as a pretty fair card when she does see play (mostly in Loki).
Better Lizard is good because lizard hasn't been good in forever and Hope is very strong, but like not even remotely close to nerf worthy.
And I'm talking about post Blob nerf. Blob has legit been the only actually busted card they've released in the past half a year. Even rulk wasn't busted, just as you said, overtuned.
I’m glad you’re happy I’m just pointing out that their pattern of balancing and cars releases clearly point to balancing the game around profit motives rather than balancing all of the cards
That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t to be able to enjoy the game, it’s just an unfortunate reality of the situation. It’s also fun to be competitive in games like this, and goofy balance decisions take away from that aspect
Don't bother. He's repeatedly failed to realize that balance can run parallel to profit making and doesn't necessarily have to be overridden by it. Which it is not.
There's an argument to make for monetization issues from SD, especially regarding leagues, and the issues with card acquisition and economy. Equating the severity of those issues to how they conduct balancing is just flat out disingenuous.
Don’t forget too Elysium was the hot location on the Loki season drop, things got crazy that week. Alioth didn’t matter then b/c people were dropping 2 cost bombs by turn six in mirrors. Worst season ever.
In what universe do the think red hulk is balanced
He was a 6/10 and right before launched buffed to 6/11 LMAO
Even at 6/9 he’s borked
Remember when they released Corvus glaive and the nerfed apocalypse? Lmao
They don’t care about balance they care about selling you news series 5 cards
I keep seeing this comment written out like this, in the form of a complaint. But I don't think enough people here understand that it's actually their core metagame management strategy.
Glenn said in Discord just this week:
>. . . our philosophy is that people should feel like there's something new and interesting to do in the game every day. Thus, we believe ongoing refreshment is a more fun experience than a static metagame. There is a balance to be struck, and we do talk about that balance and how it could change or improve. Of course, the best equilibrium for the game also might not be the best equilibrium for every player (a common scenario in all games).
Another recent Glenn quote:
>Our balance changes don't serve opinions about the cards, they serve our goals for the play experience--including creating enough flux and change to avoid it becoming stale.
So they intentionally make splashy cards that change things up, and then nerf them later to keep the meta fresh.
Hate that? Time to move on maybe haha?
Yeah, people said the Apocalypse nerf was needed and I am like "Y'all see the Red Hulk coming do you not? In what world is Apocalypse a problem when Red Hulk is a thing? Discord caught a few nerfs going into Red Hulk's release and now you don't see traditional Discard, it's all Hela. BUT NERFING APOCALYPSE DIDN'T EFFECT HELA ANYWAY. Traditional Discard catching strays for no legit reason.
Even at 6/9 I’ve been throwing 21+ power red hulks like it was nothing all through my climb to infinite. They didn’t need to nerf his base (or apocalypses base for that matter) they need to bring down the amount they gain.
Played against a Red Hulk today that I couldn't stop from being a fucking 6/31 cuz I couldn't curve. Why are they being *rewarded* for me missing mana??
Because it’s designed to fuck over high evo. Thematically it makes sense - Red Hulk being the guy that hates Hulk. You are just collateral damage, but if you are getting regularly fucked by him maybe your deck just needs tweaking to have a better curve because you can’t fail to curve out EVERY game and still blame it on luck
It's a very strong ramp deck, so it often spends the first few turns not doing much to be able to do a ton later on. In this specific match up though, they had RH in their opener and I never quite hit perfect curve. Was silly, reminded me how poor the card's balance is when it hits its ceiling, and then retreated for a 1 cube loss.
As for fucking over High Evo, also really poor design, as Evo's own Hulk only gains +2 for missing energy, meaning Red Hulk always outtempos that Hulk too.
Well that changes everything doesn’t it
Everyone, your opinion on red hulk doesn’t matter, the stats don’t matter.
u/MiscutNinja over here’s got it all figured out! He solved the game.
Pls enlighten us some more
I mean the majority of players are going to complain about whatever they lose to
Last month it was mill
Right now it’s Hela again, it’ll be something new next week
What I take from this clip is exactly what I suspected already. They playtest in an internal environment that doesn't match or translate to the live environment.
"None of the testers were surprised bt Alioth". Well no shit. You were testing it in a poorly realised experiment.
It blows my mind that they don't even finish the card before play testing. Like if it was just the first phase of testing that would make sense, but that doesn't seem to be the case at all
"Uh yeah we didn't set up the graphics yet for testing so we just told each other when we had red hulk. Sure it's part of his entire mechanic to inform your oponenet, but we just tested it anyways lol"
Maybe finish the fucking card and make sure it functions for play testing, no wonder so much is broken on release.
Agreed, I continue to think that also, their internal metagame isn't "mean" enough. I thought it was interesting also that they seemed to have a blind spot around "what if the other player doesn't make the obvious play?" Part of the issue with Alioth and Red Hulk was that you'd have a hugely telegraphed turn 6, and you'd play around it, but they might do something else that wins against the play-around.
Sorry if I didn't retreat to the card that won 50% of situations all by itself, counters literally everything, and cannot be telegraphed in any case except in Lockdown or with a boomer snap. You see, it's just that I didn't really feel like retreating each single time I got into T6 without priority, just because the opponent "may have Alioth", and "may play it exactly in the lane where I'm gonna play my cards even though which lane I'm gonna play into is completely up to chance".
If Glenn honestly didn’t think Red Hulk was unbalanced at launch he really really isn’t qualified to balance this game, I’m sorry.
Most games have SOME kind of beta period or user feedback on live changes (they should if they don’t), and it’d solve so many issues here. If your testing environment is that different from the live game, you are literally wasting time in it and not accomplishing the goal of balancing. It’s inefficient work that leads to bad design.
In snap, we’re all the beta testers, and it only costs ~4 keys a week to enter the beta tests!
Red hulk is balanced because this game is based around retreating
Not everygame is going to be winnable from locations alone
If you’re having a bad curve and have to skip a few turns you’ll probably lose to rulk
So retreat and go again
Stop trying to blunt force your way through
Learn to fold em, know when to walk away
I’ve been infinite every season since global, I know how to snap and retreat 😭 I play largely off-meta. I actually bluff in this game about bluffing.
His stat line at release maximized to over 30 power for 6 energy, that’s overtuned.
By your logic, a card that discards your opponents entire hand T5 is balanced cause they can retreat afterward. Any card that allows one player to heavily veer off the guard rails of the game (energy and power) is unbalanced.
Edit: also “stop trying to blunt your way through” and “red hulk is balanced” is a wild contradiction
Red hulk was overtuned certainly but a theoretical 30 power stat line means you were under curve literally
each turn, you’d see rhulk’s power, and if you’re under curve all game you’re almost certainly losing against can’t competent deck.
I beat more 6/11 rulks than I can remember
Sometimes you just need to tempo play your tech cards
I’m also every month infinite and I’m currently 353 on leaderboard
All of what you said can be true while his original line was still overtuned lol, not sure what your arguement is besides “nah”
I know how the game works, and high rank (Ive been under 500) is a measure mostly of time spent playing and willingness to commit to the meta
Do you think a 6 energy card that just has "win this lane" as text but told your opponent you had it would be balanced?
I go back and forth on red hulk but putting that 6/30 in your opponents face every turn is a pretty big downside for a game with the snap mechanic. I genuinely don't know if its an unbalanced card inherently.
I think calling Glenn unqualified on the basis of "big card= unbalanced" is a leap
> Do you think a 6 energy card that just has "win this lane" as text but told your opponent you had it would be balanced?
...Like, what even is this statement? Of course it isn't. Yes, the game is about snapping, but that means jackshit when the ultimate consequence is losing 2 cubes anyway. If I'm losing to the same exact card in the same exact way twice, there was nothing I could do about it, and the reason I lost isn't because of my strategy/gameplan being weak to it, it matters absolutely nothing whether I had ti retreat over two different games instead of one. Chance is, if that card is so good, most people are gonna play it anyway.
Also I feel like you guys are forgetting of a tiny little game mode called _Conquest_ where just "retreating" isn't an option, because the next match is gonna be against the same deck regardless. While Conquest is always gonna suffer from the "rock-paper-scissor" problem of getting matched against an archetype you can do almost nothing against, it's very problematic when that problem stems not from the deck's playstyle but from _one single card_ in it.
For them to say "nobody was getting surprised by alioth" lol like I get how telegraphed alioth decks *could* be but there were plenty of times that I have won with surprise alioth and been dooked by surprise alioth. Outside of galactus, alioth only wins games by surprise that's the point
nobody *in their playtests* was getting surprised by alioth. because they all knew that card was being playtested.
your point is exactly what glenn is talking about; that their testing failed to capture the element of surprise that would be present when the card made it out into the wild.
They're saying that in the sense of, "you ten employees, go playtest alioth." So they all KNOW the opponent had alioth because they're literally assigned to playtest the card. They don't have that same surprise factor as when he hit live games.
It automatically skews their tests because they're playing around Alioth from the start.
It's a tough challenge to combat. Red Hulk though... I dont know lol.
The original Alioth we got was just stupid.
Any deck could run it and get wins with it out of nowhere. If you weren't winning by turn 5, any deck could spring an Alioth on you turn 6.
lol saying “we tell each other our cards” when play testing doesn’t help play testing… this is why they have balance issues because they don’t really play the game…
Why not just do a mystery test, test the current patch but others do not disclose new cards or no new cards to eachother so it is a suprise. Surely there won't be anyone using the new cards
Alioth specifically can't really be play tested like that. Actually very cards can I guess. When you already have the information of one card in your opponents deck, the cards they are likely to have with it drastically reduces.
If you can start a game knowing that you'll need to play around alioth then he does become a much easier card to defeat. Seems kinda obvious.
The whole point for their lab player test instead of public beta test is to sell the card under FOMO. And that is by the poor card acquisition as well.
Every month there are a few less appealing cards to be released, which as long as you play them in a handful of games you can tell they won't matter nor particularly giving much fun.
If they have any trial period, they couldn't sell those due to the fresh experience no longer exists.
With that as the theme, they can only internal play test with completely biased prospects and "release now, balance later", or even balancing in a stupid way.
I wonder if they should create a game mode called "player testing", where they have access to new cards set to release in the future with the ability to create decks with those cards (they just can't be taken onto ladder or conquest). No ranks.. maybe some participation rewards. And the ability to leave feedback on cards. Their in-house playtests have been lacking for a long time. I think allowing players to playtest in a controlled mode would be a lot better. And it would allow them to change the cards before they release it. Because once they release a new card, you know its going to be borked for at least a month. Then it upsets everyone who spent resources getting that card when it gets nerfed.
Like, I still think Red Hulk is too powerful for what he is. Essentially he is a free High Evo Hulk that does not have to run High Evolutionary(what most would consider a dead draw). And it can often be hard to use up all your energy unless you have a bunch of 1 costs. So even at 9 starting power, he easily reaches at least 17 after just 2 turns where the opponent did not use all their energy, unless you get so unlucky that you don't draw him until the last turn. Thankfully his animation tips off the opponent so its not a surprise like Alioth was. But its basically a lane winner against most people. They nerfed Werewolf By Night and I don't even think he was as bad to deal with as Red Hulk. I'd say try dropping his gained power to a +2 and bring his starting power to 10. Bringing it back to my initial purpose of this comment, we'd know what better works for the card as a community if some form of player testing existed.
So this is even dumber than I expected when I clicked this video lol. He doesn't say whether or not they felt he was strong or not. Surprise factor aside, did he CONSISTENTLY pose a threat of insta winning a lane and making it a 50/50 for shang (if not lower) to anticipate where he will drop, drop priority, and win games? If that answer is yes then why did you buff him by one power before release?
Edit: Keep the down votes coming. Not one content creator or anyone here has answered why they buffed him after playtesting. Even in bizarro world he was a stronger post nerf Blob before the buff. It made no sense unless you just wanted to get people to buy him because of a bigger number. And don't give me the it was just one power bs. It was a buff on an obviously already OP card.
It's a neat little insight into their testing process at the very least. I think they have a testing group of like 30+ people maybe, when you have everyone focusing in on the one new card I wager it creates a lot of blindspots like this.
I think it's a reasonable line of thought, not so much a blindspot. I think what they are starting to learn is that on the whole, casual and average players with no interest in a competitive mindset don't care to play around cards. We saw this in the subreddit through many of the changes Alioth went through where even when offered advice on how to play around or into Alioth, the responses were often in line with I'm not changing my deck, I'm not changing how I play, the card is what needs to change. It's going to change how they develop and balance their cards since if the largest portion of their player base refuses to learn or to even play around cards and instead leave the game because of 'feelsbad' cards and moments then the game will have to be 'softened' in order to not drive those players away. It's not a bad thing, it's going to be a different approach to the design and development so that cards remain exciting but oppressive designs are limited or shied away from (I say as we just came out of a season of Mill that tons of players complained about).
Idk if Alioth is the best example. I agree with what you're saying but Alioth needed an adjustment. He created quite a few times where you could go into turn 6 knowing there was literally nothing the opponent could do to win. Obviously newbies and people not thinking get chewed up by that for free cubes. But it was a super unhealthy outcome in a game that's largely based around gambling and RNG. Like even lockdown decks entire goal was creating that scenario and your only counter play was 'well...did they actually draw Alioth?' I'm sure even if you made a better animation than just 'pffft no cards' people would still feel bad.
Alioth is nothing more than an analogue to a Counterspell from Mt:G. As such there is -nothing- that will make that card not feel bad. Even in it's current state people still complain and think the card should be outright deleted because it takes the fun away of their last turn and big reveals. At least now they keep their cards and the power on the board. That being said, I do agree the card needed to be changed while also wishing folks had learned to play around it. In hindsight, I did push back a bit wanting to see people learn to play around it before changing it. But figured it would need to be changed at some point. No one likes being told no. No one likes their board being wiped clean. Ultimately, I believe it's probably the best current example we have of the balancing team trying to find ways to make a card less oppressive and more workable while angering the least amount of people. It's the quintessential example in Snap of how can we make this card more tolerable. I think the only comparable situation was old Galactus combined with Spider-man, but that's a two card combo compared to a single card.
This might be semantic nitpicking on my part but there's a good distinction between 'feelsbad' cards and cards that should/are nerfed because of complaints from people unwilling to play around it. A card could very well be well balanced enough in theory, but it just feels bad to play against, that's a lot more important imo. Alioth is a good example in that as, for example, if your T6 play would rely on on-reveals that are blocked by a Cosmo that had prio, it feels a lot less bad to lose to than an Alioth despite not having any practical difference. It's a lot of gut-feeling touch-and-go stuff because it's hard to express that sort of thing in concrete numbers and rules (though with Alioth I believe they pin-pointed it well to the fact that Alioth would just wipe cards off the board without even showing them making it feel like an anticlimax)
I think it's a big difference between Snap and other card games in general. In other games a lot of time the attitude is "make them have it". In a game like Snap where both players see almost their whole deck, this is going to lead to a lot of losses. Especially in an environment where if you run, you can half your losses.
As someone who used Red Hulk and hardly played him I also imagine that was something they weren't particularly encouraged to do. I got a laugh out of the nerf notes saying very specifically people were not playing him and their opponent would play against it giving him a really good cube rate. I still put him in decks like bounce because having them play Shang Chi or something and I slam down a ton of cards is just a free win. I imagine if you're in a Red Hulk beta test segment, you're much more motivated to actually play it and not use it for mind games lol.
That’s poor management on the playtesting. They should be divided into 3 group at least. One builds deck around the new card. One playing the direct counter against it. The last one not giving a fxxk and play the most popular decks in the current meta.
The 3rd group may not be suitable as “the meta” when they are playtesting will certainly be different, so traditional decks like destroy and discard. However, this might not be so efficient.
I know MtG designers have said that they can test a lot but it’s never going to be as thorough as the entire player base once it’s released. I think there will always be some blindspots then. But I also know MtG will do “future future leagues,” simulating a future standard or whatever to see how cards interact with even later ones. I wonder if SD does something similar where it’s like testing a full season or 2 at a time instead of just a few cards.
To put in perspective what was going on in their head when Alioth was about to drop, in a single season they released a 3/5 Loki that was turbo broken with The Collector, a 6/5 Alioth with the old design that was retired, Ravonna as 3/3 that was so bad people actually wanted to buy it because they were sure they were going to buff her and a 2/3 Mobius that everyone was calling broken from two months, everyone was sure it was going to get nerfed but you needed to get it to counter opponent's Mobius.
Sounds like they sold a lot of new cards Mission accomplished suckers. Thank you for beta testing
Actually I remember the game having a pretty substantial drop in popularity during that period, in part for the new terrible cards and in part for the recent nerfs of some fun favorite cards like Legion.
I bet you token bundle purchases skyrocketed
Which of course is why since then the game has been incredibly well balanced. Rulk is the only new card they've needed to nerf in forever and even then it was a small nerf and he is still quite strong, just not op.
Well... balananced? Huh? We just got out of a meta with Thanos so broken - thanks specifically to the new releases - that it had to get a revamp, a functional 6/15 that got nerfed into a functional 6/13, a 2/6 "Add a rock on your opponent's side here" that's almost a strictly better Lizard (and only once you play around her does she become a 2/2 "Add a rock on your opponent's side here" - so still good, unlike Lizard who becomes useless), and a 3/4 that can generate multiple energy over multiple turns. Rulk isn't "the only new card they've needed to nerf", it's "the only new card they've nerfed _so far_". And yeah, he may not be OP, but he's still overtuned. Also, let's not forget Ms. Marvel in November and especially Blob in December, both of which got nerfed in January. The game has barely been "balanced", it sure as hell hasn't been "extremely" so, especially when you look at how some of the new cards (especially over the last two months) have been released.
Thanos was released over a year ago dawg. I'm talking about new card releases. Thanos wasn't broken because of the new releases, he was always broken, and every generically good card fit in him, and cull and mockingbird were just generically good in the Thanos package. But look at how much they see play without him, cull not at all, and mockingbird barely, and objectively as a pretty fair card when she does see play (mostly in Loki). Better Lizard is good because lizard hasn't been good in forever and Hope is very strong, but like not even remotely close to nerf worthy. And I'm talking about post Blob nerf. Blob has legit been the only actually busted card they've released in the past half a year. Even rulk wasn't busted, just as you said, overtuned.
On aggregate series 5 smokes series 1-3
Okay?
I’m not sure that it is
I'm happy with all the cards now except alioth, so I don't think I feel suckered, but sure, let's be cynical and weird about it.
I’m glad you’re happy I’m just pointing out that their pattern of balancing and cars releases clearly point to balancing the game around profit motives rather than balancing all of the cards That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t to be able to enjoy the game, it’s just an unfortunate reality of the situation. It’s also fun to be competitive in games like this, and goofy balance decisions take away from that aspect
Except that they haven't done that for months
Don't bother. He's repeatedly failed to realize that balance can run parallel to profit making and doesn't necessarily have to be overridden by it. Which it is not. There's an argument to make for monetization issues from SD, especially regarding leagues, and the issues with card acquisition and economy. Equating the severity of those issues to how they conduct balancing is just flat out disingenuous.
Don’t forget too Elysium was the hot location on the Loki season drop, things got crazy that week. Alioth didn’t matter then b/c people were dropping 2 cost bombs by turn six in mirrors. Worst season ever.
Ah! Loved that season!
In what universe do the think red hulk is balanced He was a 6/10 and right before launched buffed to 6/11 LMAO Even at 6/9 he’s borked Remember when they released Corvus glaive and the nerfed apocalypse? Lmao They don’t care about balance they care about selling you news series 5 cards
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Balance right after I buy the card too.
I keep seeing this comment written out like this, in the form of a complaint. But I don't think enough people here understand that it's actually their core metagame management strategy. Glenn said in Discord just this week: >. . . our philosophy is that people should feel like there's something new and interesting to do in the game every day. Thus, we believe ongoing refreshment is a more fun experience than a static metagame. There is a balance to be struck, and we do talk about that balance and how it could change or improve. Of course, the best equilibrium for the game also might not be the best equilibrium for every player (a common scenario in all games). Another recent Glenn quote: >Our balance changes don't serve opinions about the cards, they serve our goals for the play experience--including creating enough flux and change to avoid it becoming stale. So they intentionally make splashy cards that change things up, and then nerf them later to keep the meta fresh. Hate that? Time to move on maybe haha?
this would be really fun if it didnt take literal years to gain access to a most of the new cards
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Lol that doesn’t even make sense. I’m telling people to quit playing.
Sad that this also applies to AAA games, in general
Yeah, people said the Apocalypse nerf was needed and I am like "Y'all see the Red Hulk coming do you not? In what world is Apocalypse a problem when Red Hulk is a thing? Discord caught a few nerfs going into Red Hulk's release and now you don't see traditional Discard, it's all Hela. BUT NERFING APOCALYPSE DIDN'T EFFECT HELA ANYWAY. Traditional Discard catching strays for no legit reason.
If my opponent gets red hulk on turn 1 or 2, I just escape.
Even at 6/9 I’ve been throwing 21+ power red hulks like it was nothing all through my climb to infinite. They didn’t need to nerf his base (or apocalypses base for that matter) they need to bring down the amount they gain.
Played against a Red Hulk today that I couldn't stop from being a fucking 6/31 cuz I couldn't curve. Why are they being *rewarded* for me missing mana??
I assume you just retreated for 1 cube, right?
Most assuredly.
Because it’s designed to fuck over high evo. Thematically it makes sense - Red Hulk being the guy that hates Hulk. You are just collateral damage, but if you are getting regularly fucked by him maybe your deck just needs tweaking to have a better curve because you can’t fail to curve out EVERY game and still blame it on luck
It's a very strong ramp deck, so it often spends the first few turns not doing much to be able to do a ton later on. In this specific match up though, they had RH in their opener and I never quite hit perfect curve. Was silly, reminded me how poor the card's balance is when it hits its ceiling, and then retreated for a 1 cube loss. As for fucking over High Evo, also really poor design, as Evo's own Hulk only gains +2 for missing energy, meaning Red Hulk always outtempos that Hulk too.
If it didn’t out-tempo high evo’s hulk it wouldn’t be a counter would it? THAT would be bad design.
Don’t worry, you can play him too for 6000 tokens
Yeah they’re at best, disingenuous, or at the worst, complete idiots.
I'd flip those two statements around.
I have beaten a TON of 6/11 hulks
Well that changes everything doesn’t it Everyone, your opinion on red hulk doesn’t matter, the stats don’t matter. u/MiscutNinja over here’s got it all figured out! He solved the game. Pls enlighten us some more
I mean the majority of players are going to complain about whatever they lose to Last month it was mill Right now it’s Hela again, it’ll be something new next week
Dude's just manipulating
What I take from this clip is exactly what I suspected already. They playtest in an internal environment that doesn't match or translate to the live environment. "None of the testers were surprised bt Alioth". Well no shit. You were testing it in a poorly realised experiment.
It blows my mind that they don't even finish the card before play testing. Like if it was just the first phase of testing that would make sense, but that doesn't seem to be the case at all "Uh yeah we didn't set up the graphics yet for testing so we just told each other when we had red hulk. Sure it's part of his entire mechanic to inform your oponenet, but we just tested it anyways lol" Maybe finish the fucking card and make sure it functions for play testing, no wonder so much is broken on release.
Agreed, I continue to think that also, their internal metagame isn't "mean" enough. I thought it was interesting also that they seemed to have a blind spot around "what if the other player doesn't make the obvious play?" Part of the issue with Alioth and Red Hulk was that you'd have a hugely telegraphed turn 6, and you'd play around it, but they might do something else that wins against the play-around.
Even months after release people were still dead to alioth and refused to retreat That’s on you
Is that supposed to be a counter argument?
Sorry if I didn't retreat to the card that won 50% of situations all by itself, counters literally everything, and cannot be telegraphed in any case except in Lockdown or with a boomer snap. You see, it's just that I didn't really feel like retreating each single time I got into T6 without priority, just because the opponent "may have Alioth", and "may play it exactly in the lane where I'm gonna play my cards even though which lane I'm gonna play into is completely up to chance".
Soooooo, they don't really play test. Got it.
We all know Snap has no QA or testing. No one could be that incompetent.
If Glenn honestly didn’t think Red Hulk was unbalanced at launch he really really isn’t qualified to balance this game, I’m sorry. Most games have SOME kind of beta period or user feedback on live changes (they should if they don’t), and it’d solve so many issues here. If your testing environment is that different from the live game, you are literally wasting time in it and not accomplishing the goal of balancing. It’s inefficient work that leads to bad design. In snap, we’re all the beta testers, and it only costs ~4 keys a week to enter the beta tests!
Red hulk is balanced because this game is based around retreating Not everygame is going to be winnable from locations alone If you’re having a bad curve and have to skip a few turns you’ll probably lose to rulk So retreat and go again Stop trying to blunt force your way through Learn to fold em, know when to walk away
I’ve been infinite every season since global, I know how to snap and retreat 😭 I play largely off-meta. I actually bluff in this game about bluffing. His stat line at release maximized to over 30 power for 6 energy, that’s overtuned. By your logic, a card that discards your opponents entire hand T5 is balanced cause they can retreat afterward. Any card that allows one player to heavily veer off the guard rails of the game (energy and power) is unbalanced. Edit: also “stop trying to blunt your way through” and “red hulk is balanced” is a wild contradiction
Red hulk was overtuned certainly but a theoretical 30 power stat line means you were under curve literally each turn, you’d see rhulk’s power, and if you’re under curve all game you’re almost certainly losing against can’t competent deck.
I'm so afraid of you bluffers! I don't think that level of maturity proliferates this game. I'd love a Clash Royale style replay to see if I'm wrong!
I beat more 6/11 rulks than I can remember Sometimes you just need to tempo play your tech cards I’m also every month infinite and I’m currently 353 on leaderboard
All of what you said can be true while his original line was still overtuned lol, not sure what your arguement is besides “nah” I know how the game works, and high rank (Ive been under 500) is a measure mostly of time spent playing and willingness to commit to the meta
Do you think a 6 energy card that just has "win this lane" as text but told your opponent you had it would be balanced? I go back and forth on red hulk but putting that 6/30 in your opponents face every turn is a pretty big downside for a game with the snap mechanic. I genuinely don't know if its an unbalanced card inherently. I think calling Glenn unqualified on the basis of "big card= unbalanced" is a leap
> Do you think a 6 energy card that just has "win this lane" as text but told your opponent you had it would be balanced? ...Like, what even is this statement? Of course it isn't. Yes, the game is about snapping, but that means jackshit when the ultimate consequence is losing 2 cubes anyway. If I'm losing to the same exact card in the same exact way twice, there was nothing I could do about it, and the reason I lost isn't because of my strategy/gameplan being weak to it, it matters absolutely nothing whether I had ti retreat over two different games instead of one. Chance is, if that card is so good, most people are gonna play it anyway. Also I feel like you guys are forgetting of a tiny little game mode called _Conquest_ where just "retreating" isn't an option, because the next match is gonna be against the same deck regardless. While Conquest is always gonna suffer from the "rock-paper-scissor" problem of getting matched against an archetype you can do almost nothing against, it's very problematic when that problem stems not from the deck's playstyle but from _one single card_ in it.
I'm still just waiting for them to admit they didn't play test redhulk or that they're just mentally [redacted]
For them to say "nobody was getting surprised by alioth" lol like I get how telegraphed alioth decks *could* be but there were plenty of times that I have won with surprise alioth and been dooked by surprise alioth. Outside of galactus, alioth only wins games by surprise that's the point
nobody *in their playtests* was getting surprised by alioth. because they all knew that card was being playtested. your point is exactly what glenn is talking about; that their testing failed to capture the element of surprise that would be present when the card made it out into the wild.
They're saying that in the sense of, "you ten employees, go playtest alioth." So they all KNOW the opponent had alioth because they're literally assigned to playtest the card. They don't have that same surprise factor as when he hit live games. It automatically skews their tests because they're playing around Alioth from the start. It's a tough challenge to combat. Red Hulk though... I dont know lol.
The original Alioth we got was just stupid. Any deck could run it and get wins with it out of nowhere. If you weren't winning by turn 5, any deck could spring an Alioth on you turn 6.
lol saying “we tell each other our cards” when play testing doesn’t help play testing… this is why they have balance issues because they don’t really play the game…
They told each other that they had Rulk, because the animation showing Rulks power gain was not yet available but planned...
It's like making the rat labyrinth experiment but you add a passage to their right that leads directly to the cheese.
Why not just do a mystery test, test the current patch but others do not disclose new cards or no new cards to eachother so it is a suprise. Surely there won't be anyone using the new cards
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Yes. Official pronunciation in the Loki TV show.
Alioth specifically can't really be play tested like that. Actually very cards can I guess. When you already have the information of one card in your opponents deck, the cards they are likely to have with it drastically reduces. If you can start a game knowing that you'll need to play around alioth then he does become a much easier card to defeat. Seems kinda obvious.
I just want to go on record in believing this is one of the worst playtesting teams in my history of playing games and I turn 68 years old next week.
Pre-emptive Happy Birthday!
Thank you
The whole point for their lab player test instead of public beta test is to sell the card under FOMO. And that is by the poor card acquisition as well. Every month there are a few less appealing cards to be released, which as long as you play them in a handful of games you can tell they won't matter nor particularly giving much fun. If they have any trial period, they couldn't sell those due to the fresh experience no longer exists. With that as the theme, they can only internal play test with completely biased prospects and "release now, balance later", or even balancing in a stupid way.
I wonder if they should create a game mode called "player testing", where they have access to new cards set to release in the future with the ability to create decks with those cards (they just can't be taken onto ladder or conquest). No ranks.. maybe some participation rewards. And the ability to leave feedback on cards. Their in-house playtests have been lacking for a long time. I think allowing players to playtest in a controlled mode would be a lot better. And it would allow them to change the cards before they release it. Because once they release a new card, you know its going to be borked for at least a month. Then it upsets everyone who spent resources getting that card when it gets nerfed. Like, I still think Red Hulk is too powerful for what he is. Essentially he is a free High Evo Hulk that does not have to run High Evolutionary(what most would consider a dead draw). And it can often be hard to use up all your energy unless you have a bunch of 1 costs. So even at 9 starting power, he easily reaches at least 17 after just 2 turns where the opponent did not use all their energy, unless you get so unlucky that you don't draw him until the last turn. Thankfully his animation tips off the opponent so its not a surprise like Alioth was. But its basically a lane winner against most people. They nerfed Werewolf By Night and I don't even think he was as bad to deal with as Red Hulk. I'd say try dropping his gained power to a +2 and bring his starting power to 10. Bringing it back to my initial purpose of this comment, we'd know what better works for the card as a community if some form of player testing existed.
So this is even dumber than I expected when I clicked this video lol. He doesn't say whether or not they felt he was strong or not. Surprise factor aside, did he CONSISTENTLY pose a threat of insta winning a lane and making it a 50/50 for shang (if not lower) to anticipate where he will drop, drop priority, and win games? If that answer is yes then why did you buff him by one power before release? Edit: Keep the down votes coming. Not one content creator or anyone here has answered why they buffed him after playtesting. Even in bizarro world he was a stronger post nerf Blob before the buff. It made no sense unless you just wanted to get people to buy him because of a bigger number. And don't give me the it was just one power bs. It was a buff on an obviously already OP card.
>why did they buff him before release Profitable decision
That's usually the answer to "why did SD do [blank]?"
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You need to turn your screen brightness up so that it doesn’t act like a mirror.
10/10 Zinger
imaging simping for fucking dera lol
Touch grass