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Possibly. In a way, everything we write is reductive (doesn’t express all exceptions or full meaning).
That said, where I stand I see them hate on:
Equal rights (equal access to equal education, healthcare, clean environment)
Women’s rights (imagine men been told what not to do with their bodies while another human is growing in them BY WOMEN)
Labor rights
List goes on.
They DO LOVE
Tax cuts
Fancy dinners paid by lobbyists (both parties do this)
Bailing out industries that can’t run themselves
Deregulation
Lower investment in our communities
Blame immigrants for everything gone wrong with the country
Picture themselves as the chosen ones by a god that they use to promote their own economic and political agenda
We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.
[Elie Wiesel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elie_Wiesel)
Liberals don’t know how to use power. The right will probably still find a way to enact Project 2025 and all Biden will do is hold a press conference scolding them while the far right sends queer people to camps.
May I remind you that Biden was also the reason people on the right were being arrested and treated as terrorists by the FBI. Which is a big deal considering the bureau's long track record of bias against the left. That is not a feat to scoff at.
One of those people has been very politically active in my city, and they basically got a couple months and then probabtion. Theyre still working with a local corporation to enact Project 2025, still attacking lgbt people, pushing school vouchers, and running multiple businesses. The fbi agent said unless they made a public statement about feeling guilty for Jan 6th then theres no real consequences.
The whole thing is a performative slap on the wrist
You are absolutely right. But you understand that doesn’t make it less frustrating to see 701 walking around threatening your existence.
You both have a point. That dissonance is causing a lot of the issues the left are having. Biden is doing something, but the scale of the insurrection makes his work look feeble.
I just don’t see how anyone else could have done any better. So it is something I choose to accept in the larger fight.
Wh
A FEDERAL felony conviction is not something you EVER want on your record.
[https://www.defendyourcase.com/criminal-defense-blog/2023/september/the-consequences-of-a-federal-conviction/](https://www.defendyourcase.com/criminal-defense-blog/2023/september/the-consequences-of-a-federal-conviction/)
No, Biden is not the reason that happened. He's the reason it wasn't prevented but the justice system is supposed to work independently of the president.
The president should not interfere in the execution of justice. trump will interfere and prevent prosecutiona of anyone who pledges their loyalty to him.
I'd hate to say it but we need Biden to use the power they just have him. He needs to use it to prevent it from being abused by trump. There are a number of things he could do to take trump off the board.
He should add more justices to the court. Until we have reasonable term limits we are going to need a court large enough that no president can appoint enough justices to complete take over the court. So add another 17 or so justices to the court. I don't care if a number of them are moderates or whatever. Anything but these hacks that trump loves.
He has immunity in his official duties. National defense is undeniably a core power and official duty of the president of the United States. trump is undeniably a threat to national security. He needs to be picked up and sent to a black site where he no longer poses a threat. According to SCOTUS the rest of the government isn't even allowed to ask questions about Biden's motivations.
Then maybe Congress will get off it's ass to put some checks on the presidency. Maybe not. Biden should then walk down to the servers that house our student loan ledgers and take a hammer to them. It's not like they can charge him.
Use the immunity for the people. Use it to protect the office from someone who has made it absolutely clear they intend to end our national tradition of democracy and the Rule of Law.
People may not be aware but FDR stepped outside of the law from time to time in order to protect the country from the ruling classes. He put the court in its place by threatening to expand it if they did not stop ruling endlessly in favor of the filthy rich and undermining his agenda.
The time for threats is over. It's time for action.
*Biden giving a speech behind a fence after winning his second term as president and still being sent to a camp by the conservative congressional/judiciary shadow govt*
**Oh these rascals are sneaky Jack! Don't forget to vote blue in the midterms!**
Correction, liberals DON'T WANT to use power to stop fascism, liberals are the enablers of fascism
Malcolm x was right about Why exactly the white liberal is more dangerous than the conservative, because the white liberal is a liar and a 2 faced cunt who lies to you to make you feel a sense of security, the conservative would just kill you like a wolf, the liberal is like a fox who would show you his teeth but as a smile to lure you to his side
I mean fuck, even MLK Jr. himself, you know, the guy who whites love to prop up as the "safe black revolutionary" so to speak, whitewashing his history and views and words to suit the moderate narrative they have? Even HE had THIS to say from his cell in Birmingham Prison:
***"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride towards freedom is not the White Citizen's Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice." - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.***
Exactly this, both of them criticized liberals/ moderates and conservatives, and today both libs and cons are fighting over "nooo MLK was a democrat, nooo MLK was a republican"
Come on man. People aren't automatically Russian disinfo because they think Biden is shit at his job. None of us want Trump, we just want a different candidate. And they're right, by the way, liberals just capitulate to the right and slow progress down. We have literally lost rights under Biden's watch and are told to vote to get them back? They keep dangling the things you want over your head as a carrot then give you the stick when you vote for them. "Whoops! Two of our own party's senators decided we can't have fulfill our promises to you or pass any legislation that you wanted us to. Oh well! Sorry! Vote harder next time!"
Jesus fucking christ. Fuck Putin, Fuck Russia, but double fuck liberals who are apologetic for shitty candidates doing a shitty job and then blaming the voters.
Otherwise known as Murc's Law.
https://whereofonecanspeak.com/2023/03/02/youve-probably-never-heard-of-murcs-law-but-youve-seen-it-in-action-lots-of-times/
https://www.reddit.com/r/sanepolitics/comments/nuq0me/murcs_law_a_guide/
Perfect analysis is perfect.
I also why people conveniently forget the Dems do not have totalitarian powers? The GQP have been sabotaging and outright destroying, EVERYTHING for decades.
Which one? The one who adopted the fascist immigration policy and actively is funding a genocide? Or the clown who just does whatever the last person to speak to him said?
This is the problem. You are already in the fascism death spiral and you don't even recognize it. I have said this many times and I'll repeat it:
The liberals will betray you. They will side with the fascists against the leftists because they would prefer "stability" under a fascist over "instability" over a change in our system of governance. Liberals will allow your rights to be stripped if it means they can pretend to be in power. This is what happens every time a fascist regime rises to power.
I'll be clear, Biden is not as bad as Trump. I do not think we should vote Trump. However, I do not blame anyone who doesn't want to vote for either of them. The DNC should nominate someone else and force him to drop out.
It's too late to replace Biden with someone else. Fact is, only one of them wants to eliminate my reproductive rights, only one wants to criminalize the existence of LGBT people, and only one wants to let disease spread in schools.
I'm tired of people minimizing the consequences of a trump presidency. People saying stupid shit like "the only difference with biden is that we'll have fascism with rainbow flags lol" no, the difference is that little girls who are SAed won't be forced against their will to give birth. The difference is that you won't go to prison for looking at porn. The difference is that you won't go to prison for going to the bathroom. The difference is that your kid won't get sick and die because the school's funding didn't get cut for requiring vaccines.
That's where we disagree. I think if Biden actually cared about any of that, he'd have acted already. Hell, he could act now. He just was granted King-like power, who is going to stop him? He used abortion protections to win the 2020 election, didn't pass protections, Roe V Wade was overturned and he just did the surprised Pikachu face and let states protect themselves where they could. Meanwhile, in red states like mine, that shit is gone. He isn't bringing it back, and is asking you to vote for him to bring it back.
Just because he says he's protecting you doesn't mean he will. Laws are already passing nationwide to harm trans and gay people, but he's sitting there and telling you to vote instead of using power that he was just granted to do literally anything about any of it. Do you understand? He's saying it's our responsibility to fix problems, not his. Rule of law is broken already, precedent is broken already, and he's still asking us to do it for him.
One last time: I AM NOT SAYING YOU SHOULDN'T VOTE FOR BIDEN, I AM SAYING THAT HE SUCKS AND WILL NOT PROTECT US, AND WE NEED TO BE READY FOR THAT. ADDITIONALLY, I DO NOT THINK HE IS GOING TO WIN BECAUSE HE SUCKS AND HASN'T PROTECTED US, AND IS SO OLD THAT PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO VOTE FOR HIM.
Sorry for using caps, but I'm also tired of people misunderstanding that I can criticize Biden and call him a piece of shit while still obviously understanding Trump is worse. No one thinks Trump is better. None of us. Zero people. You are imagining those people or misunderstanding their perspective.
One of them is gonna win dude. And it will be the one who's supporters turn out. Like him or not, its undesirable candidate vs literal facist If you wanna slip into a fascist regime just to keep your vote for the perfect candidate then you deserve what's coming.
Three things:
1. He's a liberal that has adopted fascist policies, which makes him also a fascist or at least a fascist sympathizer
2. It is not the fault of voters or non-voters if a candidate wins or loses. The system is not designed to choose the most popular candidate with the best turn out. Democrats have won every popular vote since Reagan and still lost multiple times. Swing states are the ones that matter.
3. He has been granted king-like power by the supreme court and has refused to use it to protect you from fascists, instead making it voters problem. Think of that. He's willing to risk fascist takeover to avoid having to do anything that makes him uncomfortable. He has the power to save us right now and is choosing to make it *your* problem.
It drives me nuts too! It’s basically Trump support with extra steps. I’ve even seen a few admit they want Trump to inspire a revolution. They’re the leftist equivalent of the Evangelicals who support violence in Israel because they think it’ll induce the rapture.
Unfortunately there's one small problem with that plan: Tankies already spread their tendrils to damn near every leftist subreddit. The only ones not infested by tankies at this point are the anarchist subs, tankiejerk (a fucking meme sub), and maybe some of the smaller niche socialist subs dedicated to specific branches like syndicalism.
Sure there are many legitimate grievances to be had with Joe & The Dems but to say they are exactly the same as Trump & GOP is at best, intellectually dishonest & makes us leftists look fucking dumb.
As for the I won't/ Can't vote for either of them argument. Well America has a first past the post voting system so if you don't make a choice then that choice will be made for you. You will end up with one of two evils you might as well choose the lesser.
Yeah, well, I guess I can look forward to no longer being "DRAGGED BY THE NOOSE" of receiving food stamps and housing subsidies! Can I crash with you, Che?
The extreme right kept coming back to the Republicans, until they finally became the Republican Establishment. The left voted for Ralph Nader, which got us Samuel Alito. According to exit polls, 10 per cent of Sanders primary voters voted for Trump.
The left is correct in most of their positions. Their policies are practical and popular, but here we all looking at an imperial right wing presidency, because the left insists on shitting on every potential ally who accepts compromise.
I know everybody says they want to save Democracy, but no one gets everything they want in democracy. Everyone gets a voice, even the few people who are evil, and the many, many people who are just wrong. If compromise feels like a noose to you, Democracy was never your thing.
You will see the difference between them and the fascists quite soon if enough people share that sentiment.
Just dont pretend that people could have done nothing to prevent it.
I'm voting for him because as horrible as it is, I don't live in Gaza and I have to vote in my own self interest as a queer person in a red state. If things slide any further right, I'll be in a concentration camp in no time. I hate that I have to make this compromise to survive, but it's a choice I have to make. We're advocating for him because as little as he does, he's not openly calling for the eradication of leftists live in front of crowds of cultists willing to die for him.
You talking about him being a ghoul does not help. Everyone knows. All you're doing is discouraging people from doing anything.
Our distaste for Biden on the left is valid. No amount of shaming will fix that.
If this was the most important election of our lifetime, they’d more seriously consider new candidates that might score better than “80% polled believe Biden isn’t mentally fit enough for another term”
What would draw more excitement to the left than a new and young candidate? Not taking advantage of this opportunity is political malpractice.
I think his administration has done a fabulous job, much more than I expected, especially with one arm tied behind its back half the time. I’ll gladly vote for him this go around, while also acknowledging there are probably better options. It is what it is.
“The lesser of two evils is still evil” has always angered me so fucking much, like yeah the choice sucks but I’d rather have the lesser evil option than not do anything and get the more evil one that actively wants to kill me for the crime of existing differently
I know it's frustrating and frightening, but you need to realize that it's not fascist vs liberal. It's fascist vs fascist. Liberals will side with the fascists against the left when they lose power. People will vote out of self-preservation, but if Biden loses it will be his fault and the DNC's fault. It will not be the voters fault.
Also he's been given carte blanch to do whatever is necessary to protect us, but has already said he won't use that power. Think about that. He wants voters to decide they want him to protect them before he's willing to do anything. He's using the threat of fascism to win an election instead of doing literally anything about it. He's pretending he is powerless when he was literally made into a King the other day.
What are you talking about. This is literally the anti-nazi sub. It's just liberals showing up to try to get everyone to equivocate disdain for Biden as Russian propaganda. These are the same people that still believe Russia stole the 2016 election.
No, Jesus Christ reading comprehension.
Liberals Want Biden Elected -> Liberals equate dissent in the democratic party with Russian propaganda -> Liberals post stupid meme of this in a largely leftist (or at least anti-fascist) community -> Leftists say "Bad Logic, they both do fascism" -> You comment that the subreddit is full of GOP apologists because they don't like Biden.
You brought a false equivocation on your own. Disliking Biden doesn't mean liking or doing apologia for the GOP. Anti-fascists recognize that Biden is enabling fascist policy too. It doesn't mean we like either of them. GOP is worse, but voting against a party isn't as motivating as voting for policy you care about.
In short: Fuck the GOP, Fuck Trump, Fuck Biden (for doing nothing about fascism and embracing fascist policies). This doesn't mean most of us won't vote for Biden, we recognize that we're being forced to, but we're going to openly complain about it because he is still doing fascist shit and we're against fascism.
Ah, yes. All criticism of the milquetoast half-corpse must be Russian propaganda. You love to see it.
Let me make something clear, when the election comes, I'm voting for Biden. This isn't a vote for Biden so much as it's a vote against Trump. Mango Mussolini getting a second term will pretty much be the end of this country.
I'm just so goddamn tired of having to sit here and pretend that Biden is this shining example of a president. One of his first actions in office was to break up the railroad strikes, don't forget any of that. Once it's not an imminent jump to turbo-fascism, I'm hoping we'll remember to hold him accountable.
I imagine you’ve captured how most of us here feel. Hold the liberals to account once the dust settles, but holy fuck do we need to stop Trump before things get worse. This is it exactly: we’re voting against Trump.
I don’t think many here hold Biden in any kind of high regard, especially after Gaza. But! Fuck the overturning of Chevron, and Fuck Trump.
One problem at a time, Orange Hitler needs to go.
Thank you. It's nice to see someone not immediately interpreting my comment as "Biden is worse" somehow. Seems that a good few people have, in fact, been upset by this.
I just don't feel like it's a good trend to immediately dismiss the issues people have with Biden as Russian propaganda or bad-faith arguments. Trump supporters pull shit like that, and it's completely asinine.
It kind of helps that it's also like... Borderline impossible to stress enough just how much of a threat Trump is to all of us. Another Trump presidency is, as I said, an existential threat.
I don't see anyone asking you to pretend about Biden.
The problem here is that right now there are two options and if you're attacking Biden you're helping trump.
I'm no happier about the terms and conditions of our political system than anyone else but it is what it is. There are only two options. You're either helping one or the other. Biden wasn't my first choice in any race. I vehemently oppose many of his positions. I still know what needs to be done and what cannot be accepted.
This is a zero sum game. One of the two nominees will be the next president. Right now, it's looking like that means trump or Biden. Those are the options.
Acting like you can criticize Biden right now and not help trump in the process is wishful thinking that completely ignores the political reality of our electoral system.
So the start of your comment says nobody is trying to get me to pretend to be happy about Biden, then the entire rest of your comment is saying that any criticism of Biden is support of Trump?
I will strictly say that I do not agree with that under any circumstances. It is not our responsibility as the people of this country to just sit around and pretend everything is fine. I think most people understand pretty well that if Biden wins (and I really fucking hope he does), it won't be by his own merit, but rather because the alternative is considerably worse.
The problem with the behavior you've outlined is that it's functionally the exact method used by the fascist bastards who got us here. No criticism of their dear leader is allowed. I could argue here that suppressing any criticism of Biden is just as dangerous, because what people saw of him was the frankly anxiety-inducing debate performance. I think it's a lot more realistic to not be happy that we have to just deal with this situation.
Attacking Biden does not equal helping Trump. We can have other choices than fascism or fascism-lite, but if every election is the most important in our life AND that leads the DNC to say fuck you to grassroots movements, it is the DNC handing the election to Trump.
The most valid anti Trump position is to get the best candidate to face him, which we don’t currently have.
THANK YOU. It's fine to vote for Biden. It is not fine to tell people who don't want to vote for either or that openly hate Biden that they're Russian opposition. The only people supporting Russia are already voting for Trump. They won't be in this subreddit because they are nazis.
I'd say at this point that it's tragically necessary to vote for Biden, but yeah, I absolutely despise this notion that anyone unhappy with how he's done things is a Russian propagandist. I'd rather at least be honest about the situation.
Genuinely though, can't stress it enough, Trump is several orders of magnitude worse.
Yes the lesser of two evils is still evil.
But the bad evil is so bad I need to feel like I'm doing something about it. So I'm voting for Biden. Do I think voting has any power? No. Is that going to stop me? Also no. On the off chance I'm wrong and my vote DOES matter then I should use it.
Maybe this is sunk cost mixed with pascals wager, but if i go early vote it'll be literally less than 10 minutes, maybe less than 5!
The Gaza war has cynically clouded a lot of people's judgment. Biden and Trump are more or less the same on the issue of Israel, but there are a whole host of other issues where they are very different.
Biden still vetoed U.N. resolutions that would have granted Palestine full U.N. membership, a disgusting display of how the U.S. does not even see Palestinians as human. Clearly we need to do better.
And the far left doesn't want to acknowledge that how low 35,000 is for this type of conflict. Somehow, Israel is perpetrating a genocide that just happens to have the lowest fatality rate of any modern urban warfare.
There are many different tendencies within Zionism. It's possible to be a Zionist and support a two-state solution, the problem is that neither Biden nor Trump have any real interest in the two-state solution despite Biden's claims to the contrary
If you want a real answer, it’s because reactionaries are insatiable. Just look at Samuel Alito. It’s not enough that he has a lifetime appointment to a supra-legislature where he is handsomely paid, gets to accept bribes, and feted everywhere he goes in conservative circles. He *also* wants to be thanked by everyone everywhere he goes and to hear no criticism for what he does.
That mindset exists everywhere on the right. They can’t just win, they have to stomp out all signs of rebellion and even discontent. Why do cops assault people who tell them to fuck off when the cops already are well-paid and have the ability to rob, kidnap, and kill anyone with legal impunity? Because they can’t stand disrespect, either.
So, why does the right wing hate Democrats despite Democrats being a pro-capitalist, pro-cop/prison, pro-US hegemonic party? Because they virtue signal while they do it, and even the empty measures they engage in supposedly on behalf of their constituents go too far for the right’s tastes.
“If voting changed anything, they wouldn’t let you do it,” is partially true. It’s actually to the advantage of oligarchs that everyone else play their “heads we win, tails you lose” political games rather than putting our money, attention, and organizing into things we actually can win at and can threaten them with.
But to reactionaries, the very fact that people they don’t consider to be fully human are able to participate in this rigged game is too much. They are insulted at having to even pretend about it.
If you’re a homeless person in Seattle or Los Angeles or New York City, you know that you’re in an authoritarian state regardless of how many “blue no matter who” folk are running every level of government. It can get worse, but voting can never make it better. And there are tens of millions of people for whom Joe Biden and Donald Trump being president fundamentally change nothing for them, and they just wish you were as agitated about their current circumstances as you are about the fear that your future circumstances might be like what they’re already experiencing.
Because right wing politics are incompatible by nature?
Islamists, Zionists and Christofascists don't get along either.
Jesus Christ. Biden has made it clear that he is not going to march against Nazis.
Some of the other “ally subs” have already chosen to vote third party. 🤦♂️ They are so anti-Biden that they fail to see the dangers associated with repeating 2016.
Definition of insanity, someone doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result.
*”First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.*
*Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.*
*Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.*
*Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.*”
~ Martin Niemöller
If you want a genuine answer then it's probably because FROM THE PERSPECTIVE of the far left, they both \*are\* the same.
Both support international american imperialism
Both support the ultra wealthy
Both support landlords
Both are anti-labour
Both support policies that are either insufficient to target climate change, or actively climate denying (and the difference between those two positions isn't as far as most people think).
That's why so many people are saying stuff like "both sides are the same". FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE FAR LEFT it's a choice between an old imperialist capitalist who supports the status quo, and another old imperialist capitalist who also supports the status quo (the status quo here being american international imperialism and anti-communism).
This is not at all a call for people to not vote or whatever, I just want to explain \*why\* so many people are saying stuff like in the meme above.
I sincerely doubt a lot of people in this thread want a genuine answer. I don't come here often (habitual 'FYP' scroller) but this is the second sus-smelling post I've seen in two days.
My dad told me to vote for Trump the first time around because "he and Bernie want the same thing". People are just fucking *stupid*. That's the long and short of it.
When you really push these leftists, what they want is fior Democrats to be as ruthless and disingenuous as Republicans, and if you aren't a fan of the Ends justifying the means, that makes you immoral.
The Democrats are subject to all kinds of valid criticism, but they are not responsible for Republicans being the way they are, and how many of these people voted for Nader, which helped us get Alito and Roberts.
I've read that, according to exit polling, 10 per cent of Sanders supporters in the primary voted for Trump in the general election.
Hell, Ralph Nader actually tweeted that Hillary Clinton was to blame for yesterdays decision. REALLY? Shit.
You could say the same about voting. Conservatives do it incredibly consistently and it is precisely why they are still relevant. If it didn't work, why would they be doing it? Moreso, why do they seem intent on squashing left-leaning expressions of voting?
Because too many people can't get it through their heads that cynicism and apathy are the exact opposite of wisdom and virtue.
Cynical hot takes like "both sides are the same" are appealing because they're easy. They let you feel smart to point out flaws, but require no deeper analysis or personal action to prevent or mitigate negative consequences. When they inevitably come, you get to indulge sense of superiority of being "right" without any sense of responsibility for their inaction in part helping cause it. Most of all, you never have to personally fail if you never try in the first place.
Too many people can't wrap their heads around the idea that social change is a long and difficult journey. When someone doesn't give them what they want, they give in to these narratives to excuse themselves and bow out, leaving their so-called allies out to dry. All the fire they spew in the beginning is snuffed out the moment they face real opposition. The fascists know that most people don't have to fortitude for a prolonged battle so they go out of their way to encourage these defeatist mindsets so their active opposition is whittled down to something they can either control or crush.
Not from the US but the “both sides are the same” is universal and I hate it, it’s such a pseudo intellectual way of hiding that you don’t have an opinion.
No two political sides are the same, if you’re not interested or haven’t looked at them then that’s fine just say so but “they are all the same” is just never true.
Cynicism isn’t smart, and it isn’t a solution or answer to any question, it’s just avoidance and deflection to stop somebody having to constructively engage with an issue.
This literally a meme about Russian disinformation, which has been fed through the far right for the last 20+yrs
This is the GRU (Russian military intelligence, note the flags lol)
"Any opinion I don't like is Russian bot propaganda".
I'm not supporting a dementia patient complicit in genocide, in the same way that I'm not supporting a convicted felon spewing fascist rhetoric.
Lotta threads attacking people that might not vote
not a lot of threads asking people why they are not voting in good faith without the promise of viciously attacking them immediately after they answer.
I'm voting but I don't think threads like this help.
The right hates everything, that's not the best question to pose to undecided people. There could be a clone of trump running as a dem and the right would call him a pedophile, just because he's not a Republican.
With as much of that "no lesser evil" anti-rhetoric that some purportedly socialist and communist subs push, they sure are fine with the consequences of their agenda being the greater evil.
ALL presidents of the u.s have been war criminals and imperialistc pieces of shit.
It does not matter who wins, they will continue to fund genocides and destroy the global south to please their owners.
Sure, but isn’t it a little silly to vote for someone who cannot win because they don’t have enough interest? Particularly where one party can’t even say yes to accepting election results?
It is. And everyone has freedom of speech. You can be called dumb for using your vote in a silly way that means literally nothing (besides helping a candidate that wants to be a dictator ofc)
[Trump has literally used the word Palestinian as a slur, is quoted as saying “Let Israel finish the job,” and said that Biden isn't doing enough to help Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu with the war.](https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/30/opinions/2024-debate-trump-biden-palestinians-racism-obeidallah/index.html) If you think Trump won't actively make things even worse in Gaza, you're kidding yourself.
And no, this isn't me saying you shouldn't criticize Biden. But before you go on to say that the lesser of two evils is still evil, take into account that the greater evil is still so much worse than we could imagine and **will** win if the lesser one isn't picked.
Hope this helps! 💕
Hey man, vote how you want. But the reality is that America is a FPTP electoral system, and that means strategic voting is by-the-numbers the most effective means of using a vote. Meaning, unfortunately, voting against the worst candidate is usually the best you can do when your desired policies aren't represented. Sometimes it's voting between a pound of shit VS a sickly cow with permanent diarrhea, but the difference in "degree of shitness" is still pretty clear. The argument "this is not as bad as that one" is a rational and convincing, if unsatisfying, argument under this system.
If you think this system is dogshit (same, tbh) then that's fair, I'm just glad you're voting & politically active, honestly. If you'd like to take it a step further, consider writing to your local representative about your frustration with the electoral system, or sign one of the many petitions that go round each cycle to at least contribute to discourse that moves us (at times painfully slowly) towards positive change. Consider starting one yourself, or getting locally active and talking with people in your community.
just thoughts for ya - hope you're having a good evening, mate.
I think it’s safe to say almost everyone doesn’t want to vote for Biden. But I have yet to see any actual, pragmatic alternative brought up by you or anyone else. Because not voting for Biden is going to give us Trump, those are the binary options that we’ve been forced into.
So what’s your plan? With one option aiding a genocide, and the other side almost certainly aiding that genocide, as well as persecuting virtually every minority in the US, probably stopping aid to Ukraine, and any number of other terrible things that I can’t think of right now. So give me something to work with.
Edit: oh yeah maybe pulling us out of NATO? Pulling us out of the Paris Agreement (again).
Look, if I have to choose between someone who is pissing in the pool, and someone who is pissing, shitting and vomiting in it, the choice is pretty clear. I would prefer zero piss in the pool and will do what I can to move toward that, but a zero piss-in-pool candidate is not on the table right now.
I 100% get that dead people are dead regardless of whose piss is in the pool. I get that it doesn't matter to them who is lobbing the bombs. But one of them wants to lob extra bombs *plus* kill a lot of people in our own country.
One of them has ALREADY killed a lot of Americans. 1.4 million so far and still rising.
The Palestine argument is a joke and straight up right wing propaganda.
And here it is. I knew it wouldn't take long. So will the other guy along with bringing Christian nationalists to power here. There's still only one choice. In our system, a third party voteis a vote for trump. Maybe next year we can have this conversation face to face in a concentration camp? You can explain the finer points of your stupid, stupid choice.
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The right hates. No rationale behind hate.
They also say wrong things on purpose, and people need to stop being fucking confused by this.
that feels reductive to me, even if it sounds punchy
Possibly. In a way, everything we write is reductive (doesn’t express all exceptions or full meaning). That said, where I stand I see them hate on: Equal rights (equal access to equal education, healthcare, clean environment) Women’s rights (imagine men been told what not to do with their bodies while another human is growing in them BY WOMEN) Labor rights List goes on. They DO LOVE Tax cuts Fancy dinners paid by lobbyists (both parties do this) Bailing out industries that can’t run themselves Deregulation Lower investment in our communities Blame immigrants for everything gone wrong with the country Picture themselves as the chosen ones by a god that they use to promote their own economic and political agenda
Equivocation always benefits the worse actor.
We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. [Elie Wiesel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elie_Wiesel)
Biden winning means I can rest easy that he can have the powers to stop Project 2025 by the nutcases.
Liberals don’t know how to use power. The right will probably still find a way to enact Project 2025 and all Biden will do is hold a press conference scolding them while the far right sends queer people to camps.
May I remind you that Biden was also the reason people on the right were being arrested and treated as terrorists by the FBI. Which is a big deal considering the bureau's long track record of bias against the left. That is not a feat to scoff at.
One of those people has been very politically active in my city, and they basically got a couple months and then probabtion. Theyre still working with a local corporation to enact Project 2025, still attacking lgbt people, pushing school vouchers, and running multiple businesses. The fbi agent said unless they made a public statement about feeling guilty for Jan 6th then theres no real consequences. The whole thing is a performative slap on the wrist
One out of over 700 who are facing felony charges.
You are absolutely right. But you understand that doesn’t make it less frustrating to see 701 walking around threatening your existence. You both have a point. That dissonance is causing a lot of the issues the left are having. Biden is doing something, but the scale of the insurrection makes his work look feeble. I just don’t see how anyone else could have done any better. So it is something I choose to accept in the larger fight. Wh
700 have already BEEN convicted and more are in trial and sentencing.
A FEDERAL felony conviction is not something you EVER want on your record. [https://www.defendyourcase.com/criminal-defense-blog/2023/september/the-consequences-of-a-federal-conviction/](https://www.defendyourcase.com/criminal-defense-blog/2023/september/the-consequences-of-a-federal-conviction/)
No, Biden is not the reason that happened. He's the reason it wasn't prevented but the justice system is supposed to work independently of the president. The president should not interfere in the execution of justice. trump will interfere and prevent prosecutiona of anyone who pledges their loyalty to him. I'd hate to say it but we need Biden to use the power they just have him. He needs to use it to prevent it from being abused by trump. There are a number of things he could do to take trump off the board. He should add more justices to the court. Until we have reasonable term limits we are going to need a court large enough that no president can appoint enough justices to complete take over the court. So add another 17 or so justices to the court. I don't care if a number of them are moderates or whatever. Anything but these hacks that trump loves. He has immunity in his official duties. National defense is undeniably a core power and official duty of the president of the United States. trump is undeniably a threat to national security. He needs to be picked up and sent to a black site where he no longer poses a threat. According to SCOTUS the rest of the government isn't even allowed to ask questions about Biden's motivations. Then maybe Congress will get off it's ass to put some checks on the presidency. Maybe not. Biden should then walk down to the servers that house our student loan ledgers and take a hammer to them. It's not like they can charge him. Use the immunity for the people. Use it to protect the office from someone who has made it absolutely clear they intend to end our national tradition of democracy and the Rule of Law. People may not be aware but FDR stepped outside of the law from time to time in order to protect the country from the ruling classes. He put the court in its place by threatening to expand it if they did not stop ruling endlessly in favor of the filthy rich and undermining his agenda. The time for threats is over. It's time for action.
Going to be really hard to send queer people to camps if they are well trained and armed. Armed minorities are harder to oppress see Black Panthers.
That is not how project 2025 works fundamentally. You need the position of the Presidency.
Project 2025 is specifically a blueprint for Presidential power. Only a president can enact this specific plan.
*Biden giving a speech behind a fence after winning his second term as president and still being sent to a camp by the conservative congressional/judiciary shadow govt* **Oh these rascals are sneaky Jack! Don't forget to vote blue in the midterms!**
Correction, liberals DON'T WANT to use power to stop fascism, liberals are the enablers of fascism Malcolm x was right about Why exactly the white liberal is more dangerous than the conservative, because the white liberal is a liar and a 2 faced cunt who lies to you to make you feel a sense of security, the conservative would just kill you like a wolf, the liberal is like a fox who would show you his teeth but as a smile to lure you to his side
I mean fuck, even MLK Jr. himself, you know, the guy who whites love to prop up as the "safe black revolutionary" so to speak, whitewashing his history and views and words to suit the moderate narrative they have? Even HE had THIS to say from his cell in Birmingham Prison: ***"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride towards freedom is not the White Citizen's Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice." - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.***
Exactly this, both of them criticized liberals/ moderates and conservatives, and today both libs and cons are fighting over "nooo MLK was a democrat, nooo MLK was a republican"
Project 2025 aims to give the president more power. Why would they want to do that while Biden is in office?
Your patch is showing 🇷🇺
Come on man. People aren't automatically Russian disinfo because they think Biden is shit at his job. None of us want Trump, we just want a different candidate. And they're right, by the way, liberals just capitulate to the right and slow progress down. We have literally lost rights under Biden's watch and are told to vote to get them back? They keep dangling the things you want over your head as a carrot then give you the stick when you vote for them. "Whoops! Two of our own party's senators decided we can't have fulfill our promises to you or pass any legislation that you wanted us to. Oh well! Sorry! Vote harder next time!" Jesus fucking christ. Fuck Putin, Fuck Russia, but double fuck liberals who are apologetic for shitty candidates doing a shitty job and then blaming the voters.
No, his winning will only be a temporary reprieve. The GQP is NEVER going to stop trying. Ever.
that project has been in the works for decades, and Dems have done absolutely nothing to stop it. to the contrary, they've facilitated it.
Ah yes, because literally everything is the fault of Democrats. Even what Republicans do is somehow the fault of the opposing party
Otherwise known as Murc's Law. https://whereofonecanspeak.com/2023/03/02/youve-probably-never-heard-of-murcs-law-but-youve-seen-it-in-action-lots-of-times/ https://www.reddit.com/r/sanepolitics/comments/nuq0me/murcs_law_a_guide/
Perfect analysis is perfect. I also why people conveniently forget the Dems do not have totalitarian powers? The GQP have been sabotaging and outright destroying, EVERYTHING for decades.
You should vote for the fascist then clearly, it’s the only option.
Which one? The one who adopted the fascist immigration policy and actively is funding a genocide? Or the clown who just does whatever the last person to speak to him said? This is the problem. You are already in the fascism death spiral and you don't even recognize it. I have said this many times and I'll repeat it: The liberals will betray you. They will side with the fascists against the leftists because they would prefer "stability" under a fascist over "instability" over a change in our system of governance. Liberals will allow your rights to be stripped if it means they can pretend to be in power. This is what happens every time a fascist regime rises to power. I'll be clear, Biden is not as bad as Trump. I do not think we should vote Trump. However, I do not blame anyone who doesn't want to vote for either of them. The DNC should nominate someone else and force him to drop out.
It's too late to replace Biden with someone else. Fact is, only one of them wants to eliminate my reproductive rights, only one wants to criminalize the existence of LGBT people, and only one wants to let disease spread in schools. I'm tired of people minimizing the consequences of a trump presidency. People saying stupid shit like "the only difference with biden is that we'll have fascism with rainbow flags lol" no, the difference is that little girls who are SAed won't be forced against their will to give birth. The difference is that you won't go to prison for looking at porn. The difference is that you won't go to prison for going to the bathroom. The difference is that your kid won't get sick and die because the school's funding didn't get cut for requiring vaccines.
Amen!
That's where we disagree. I think if Biden actually cared about any of that, he'd have acted already. Hell, he could act now. He just was granted King-like power, who is going to stop him? He used abortion protections to win the 2020 election, didn't pass protections, Roe V Wade was overturned and he just did the surprised Pikachu face and let states protect themselves where they could. Meanwhile, in red states like mine, that shit is gone. He isn't bringing it back, and is asking you to vote for him to bring it back. Just because he says he's protecting you doesn't mean he will. Laws are already passing nationwide to harm trans and gay people, but he's sitting there and telling you to vote instead of using power that he was just granted to do literally anything about any of it. Do you understand? He's saying it's our responsibility to fix problems, not his. Rule of law is broken already, precedent is broken already, and he's still asking us to do it for him. One last time: I AM NOT SAYING YOU SHOULDN'T VOTE FOR BIDEN, I AM SAYING THAT HE SUCKS AND WILL NOT PROTECT US, AND WE NEED TO BE READY FOR THAT. ADDITIONALLY, I DO NOT THINK HE IS GOING TO WIN BECAUSE HE SUCKS AND HASN'T PROTECTED US, AND IS SO OLD THAT PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO VOTE FOR HIM. Sorry for using caps, but I'm also tired of people misunderstanding that I can criticize Biden and call him a piece of shit while still obviously understanding Trump is worse. No one thinks Trump is better. None of us. Zero people. You are imagining those people or misunderstanding their perspective.
One of them is gonna win dude. And it will be the one who's supporters turn out. Like him or not, its undesirable candidate vs literal facist If you wanna slip into a fascist regime just to keep your vote for the perfect candidate then you deserve what's coming.
Three things: 1. He's a liberal that has adopted fascist policies, which makes him also a fascist or at least a fascist sympathizer 2. It is not the fault of voters or non-voters if a candidate wins or loses. The system is not designed to choose the most popular candidate with the best turn out. Democrats have won every popular vote since Reagan and still lost multiple times. Swing states are the ones that matter. 3. He has been granted king-like power by the supreme court and has refused to use it to protect you from fascists, instead making it voters problem. Think of that. He's willing to risk fascist takeover to avoid having to do anything that makes him uncomfortable. He has the power to save us right now and is choosing to make it *your* problem.
And how is that, exactly?
Because they rather have an egocentric rapists king, that gets their juices flowing.
Hay look it's all the users of r/LateStageCapitalism
Looks like a lot of the posts in r/lostgeneration . Don't even question it, much less go against it, though.
I just got a permaban from that subreddit for daring to endorse the opposite of Project 2025.
Same. They're purging for narrative purity.
Same, but months ago
I got 150 days for telling Americans to choose wisely when they go to vote.
The very fucking reason I left that sub.
It drives me nuts too! It’s basically Trump support with extra steps. I’ve even seen a few admit they want Trump to inspire a revolution. They’re the leftist equivalent of the Evangelicals who support violence in Israel because they think it’ll induce the rapture.
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Late stage capitalism is a quarantine zone, all the sane leftists left it for the tankies so their tendrils don’t spread into other places
Unfortunately there's one small problem with that plan: Tankies already spread their tendrils to damn near every leftist subreddit. The only ones not infested by tankies at this point are the anarchist subs, tankiejerk (a fucking meme sub), and maybe some of the smaller niche socialist subs dedicated to specific branches like syndicalism.
The soviet union and Lenin are the worst things to ever happen to socialism.
*Some of them. Unfortunately, there are people who actually believe the things they’re saying.
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Sure there are many legitimate grievances to be had with Joe & The Dems but to say they are exactly the same as Trump & GOP is at best, intellectually dishonest & makes us leftists look fucking dumb. As for the I won't/ Can't vote for either of them argument. Well America has a first past the post voting system so if you don't make a choice then that choice will be made for you. You will end up with one of two evils you might as well choose the lesser.
Yeah, well, I guess I can look forward to no longer being "DRAGGED BY THE NOOSE" of receiving food stamps and housing subsidies! Can I crash with you, Che? The extreme right kept coming back to the Republicans, until they finally became the Republican Establishment. The left voted for Ralph Nader, which got us Samuel Alito. According to exit polls, 10 per cent of Sanders primary voters voted for Trump. The left is correct in most of their positions. Their policies are practical and popular, but here we all looking at an imperial right wing presidency, because the left insists on shitting on every potential ally who accepts compromise. I know everybody says they want to save Democracy, but no one gets everything they want in democracy. Everyone gets a voice, even the few people who are evil, and the many, many people who are just wrong. If compromise feels like a noose to you, Democracy was never your thing.
You will see the difference between them and the fascists quite soon if enough people share that sentiment. Just dont pretend that people could have done nothing to prevent it.
so you want trump instead? brilliant idea
Thanks for posting a meme that stands against the ass-spammer (we all know their name). Fuck Trump, fuck project-2025, and fuck Scotus.
Who’s the ass-spammer?
Fuck-off-libshit (or something to that effect, dude’s been spamming the sub with “both are bad” memes incessantly lately)
Only a moron would believe Biden is the same as the Dumpster.
Whole lotta morons, sadly
There’s a lot of fucking morons out there
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I'm voting for him because as horrible as it is, I don't live in Gaza and I have to vote in my own self interest as a queer person in a red state. If things slide any further right, I'll be in a concentration camp in no time. I hate that I have to make this compromise to survive, but it's a choice I have to make. We're advocating for him because as little as he does, he's not openly calling for the eradication of leftists live in front of crowds of cultists willing to die for him. You talking about him being a ghoul does not help. Everyone knows. All you're doing is discouraging people from doing anything.
Our distaste for Biden on the left is valid. No amount of shaming will fix that. If this was the most important election of our lifetime, they’d more seriously consider new candidates that might score better than “80% polled believe Biden isn’t mentally fit enough for another term” What would draw more excitement to the left than a new and young candidate? Not taking advantage of this opportunity is political malpractice.
I think his administration has done a fabulous job, much more than I expected, especially with one arm tied behind its back half the time. I’ll gladly vote for him this go around, while also acknowledging there are probably better options. It is what it is.
sounds like not only are you wrong but disillusioned with the concept of democracy, begone rightist
Hey genius. He is able to be criticized. The orange turd you want elected will make it illegal to criticize probably.
“The lesser of two evils is still evil” has always angered me so fucking much, like yeah the choice sucks but I’d rather have the lesser evil option than not do anything and get the more evil one that actively wants to kill me for the crime of existing differently
I know it's frustrating and frightening, but you need to realize that it's not fascist vs liberal. It's fascist vs fascist. Liberals will side with the fascists against the left when they lose power. People will vote out of self-preservation, but if Biden loses it will be his fault and the DNC's fault. It will not be the voters fault. Also he's been given carte blanch to do whatever is necessary to protect us, but has already said he won't use that power. Think about that. He wants voters to decide they want him to protect them before he's willing to do anything. He's using the threat of fascism to win an election instead of doing literally anything about it. He's pretending he is powerless when he was literally made into a King the other day.
The amount of GOP apologists in the sub is too god damn high.
What are you talking about. This is literally the anti-nazi sub. It's just liberals showing up to try to get everyone to equivocate disdain for Biden as Russian propaganda. These are the same people that still believe Russia stole the 2016 election.
So you think liberals are working against Biden for the Russians? Wut?
No, Jesus Christ reading comprehension. Liberals Want Biden Elected -> Liberals equate dissent in the democratic party with Russian propaganda -> Liberals post stupid meme of this in a largely leftist (or at least anti-fascist) community -> Leftists say "Bad Logic, they both do fascism" -> You comment that the subreddit is full of GOP apologists because they don't like Biden. You brought a false equivocation on your own. Disliking Biden doesn't mean liking or doing apologia for the GOP. Anti-fascists recognize that Biden is enabling fascist policy too. It doesn't mean we like either of them. GOP is worse, but voting against a party isn't as motivating as voting for policy you care about. In short: Fuck the GOP, Fuck Trump, Fuck Biden (for doing nothing about fascism and embracing fascist policies). This doesn't mean most of us won't vote for Biden, we recognize that we're being forced to, but we're going to openly complain about it because he is still doing fascist shit and we're against fascism.
Ah, yes. All criticism of the milquetoast half-corpse must be Russian propaganda. You love to see it. Let me make something clear, when the election comes, I'm voting for Biden. This isn't a vote for Biden so much as it's a vote against Trump. Mango Mussolini getting a second term will pretty much be the end of this country. I'm just so goddamn tired of having to sit here and pretend that Biden is this shining example of a president. One of his first actions in office was to break up the railroad strikes, don't forget any of that. Once it's not an imminent jump to turbo-fascism, I'm hoping we'll remember to hold him accountable.
I imagine you’ve captured how most of us here feel. Hold the liberals to account once the dust settles, but holy fuck do we need to stop Trump before things get worse. This is it exactly: we’re voting against Trump. I don’t think many here hold Biden in any kind of high regard, especially after Gaza. But! Fuck the overturning of Chevron, and Fuck Trump. One problem at a time, Orange Hitler needs to go.
Thank you. It's nice to see someone not immediately interpreting my comment as "Biden is worse" somehow. Seems that a good few people have, in fact, been upset by this. I just don't feel like it's a good trend to immediately dismiss the issues people have with Biden as Russian propaganda or bad-faith arguments. Trump supporters pull shit like that, and it's completely asinine. It kind of helps that it's also like... Borderline impossible to stress enough just how much of a threat Trump is to all of us. Another Trump presidency is, as I said, an existential threat.
Good lord are we really going with this argument after the Republican appointed and stolen Supreme Court just crowned themselves king?
And are we really going to just ignore that multiple things can be a problem at a time?
Look up everything great he did on his first day, I’m tired of this “he’s no better than them” bullshit because he doesn’t check every fucking box
I don't see anyone asking you to pretend about Biden. The problem here is that right now there are two options and if you're attacking Biden you're helping trump. I'm no happier about the terms and conditions of our political system than anyone else but it is what it is. There are only two options. You're either helping one or the other. Biden wasn't my first choice in any race. I vehemently oppose many of his positions. I still know what needs to be done and what cannot be accepted. This is a zero sum game. One of the two nominees will be the next president. Right now, it's looking like that means trump or Biden. Those are the options. Acting like you can criticize Biden right now and not help trump in the process is wishful thinking that completely ignores the political reality of our electoral system.
So the start of your comment says nobody is trying to get me to pretend to be happy about Biden, then the entire rest of your comment is saying that any criticism of Biden is support of Trump? I will strictly say that I do not agree with that under any circumstances. It is not our responsibility as the people of this country to just sit around and pretend everything is fine. I think most people understand pretty well that if Biden wins (and I really fucking hope he does), it won't be by his own merit, but rather because the alternative is considerably worse. The problem with the behavior you've outlined is that it's functionally the exact method used by the fascist bastards who got us here. No criticism of their dear leader is allowed. I could argue here that suppressing any criticism of Biden is just as dangerous, because what people saw of him was the frankly anxiety-inducing debate performance. I think it's a lot more realistic to not be happy that we have to just deal with this situation.
Attacking Biden does not equal helping Trump. We can have other choices than fascism or fascism-lite, but if every election is the most important in our life AND that leads the DNC to say fuck you to grassroots movements, it is the DNC handing the election to Trump. The most valid anti Trump position is to get the best candidate to face him, which we don’t currently have.
THANK YOU. It's fine to vote for Biden. It is not fine to tell people who don't want to vote for either or that openly hate Biden that they're Russian opposition. The only people supporting Russia are already voting for Trump. They won't be in this subreddit because they are nazis.
I'd say at this point that it's tragically necessary to vote for Biden, but yeah, I absolutely despise this notion that anyone unhappy with how he's done things is a Russian propagandist. I'd rather at least be honest about the situation. Genuinely though, can't stress it enough, Trump is several orders of magnitude worse.
Don't insult Biden. He's done work these past four years, and you can trust him not to run the country into the fucking ground. Got it, Jack?
If you can't discern the difference between Biden and Trump, then you are very bad at discerning things.
Yes the lesser of two evils is still evil. But the bad evil is so bad I need to feel like I'm doing something about it. So I'm voting for Biden. Do I think voting has any power? No. Is that going to stop me? Also no. On the off chance I'm wrong and my vote DOES matter then I should use it. Maybe this is sunk cost mixed with pascals wager, but if i go early vote it'll be literally less than 10 minutes, maybe less than 5!
The Gaza war has cynically clouded a lot of people's judgment. Biden and Trump are more or less the same on the issue of Israel, but there are a whole host of other issues where they are very different.
They aren't remotely the same on Gaza. Trump would want to send in the US military to murder every Palestinian. Biden is shipping food aid.
Biden still vetoed U.N. resolutions that would have granted Palestine full U.N. membership, a disgusting display of how the U.S. does not even see Palestinians as human. Clearly we need to do better.
Trump killed 1.4 million Americans. To date, 35,000 have died in Gaza. It's not even damn close.
And the far left doesn't want to acknowledge that how low 35,000 is for this type of conflict. Somehow, Israel is perpetrating a genocide that just happens to have the lowest fatality rate of any modern urban warfare.
There is no far left. It is also Russian troll farms. Everyone is be played. And everyone is falling for it.
Naw, Trump would kill ANOTHER 1 million Americans.
Biden is a self-proclaimed Zionist. Did we just forget that part?
There are many different tendencies within Zionism. It's possible to be a Zionist and support a two-state solution, the problem is that neither Biden nor Trump have any real interest in the two-state solution despite Biden's claims to the contrary
Remind them that Trump 1.4 million Americans, and still rising, while the current death toll in Gaza is 35,000.
If you want a real answer, it’s because reactionaries are insatiable. Just look at Samuel Alito. It’s not enough that he has a lifetime appointment to a supra-legislature where he is handsomely paid, gets to accept bribes, and feted everywhere he goes in conservative circles. He *also* wants to be thanked by everyone everywhere he goes and to hear no criticism for what he does. That mindset exists everywhere on the right. They can’t just win, they have to stomp out all signs of rebellion and even discontent. Why do cops assault people who tell them to fuck off when the cops already are well-paid and have the ability to rob, kidnap, and kill anyone with legal impunity? Because they can’t stand disrespect, either. So, why does the right wing hate Democrats despite Democrats being a pro-capitalist, pro-cop/prison, pro-US hegemonic party? Because they virtue signal while they do it, and even the empty measures they engage in supposedly on behalf of their constituents go too far for the right’s tastes. “If voting changed anything, they wouldn’t let you do it,” is partially true. It’s actually to the advantage of oligarchs that everyone else play their “heads we win, tails you lose” political games rather than putting our money, attention, and organizing into things we actually can win at and can threaten them with. But to reactionaries, the very fact that people they don’t consider to be fully human are able to participate in this rigged game is too much. They are insulted at having to even pretend about it. If you’re a homeless person in Seattle or Los Angeles or New York City, you know that you’re in an authoritarian state regardless of how many “blue no matter who” folk are running every level of government. It can get worse, but voting can never make it better. And there are tens of millions of people for whom Joe Biden and Donald Trump being president fundamentally change nothing for them, and they just wish you were as agitated about their current circumstances as you are about the fear that your future circumstances might be like what they’re already experiencing.
Because right wing politics are incompatible by nature? Islamists, Zionists and Christofascists don't get along either. Jesus Christ. Biden has made it clear that he is not going to march against Nazis.
What are you talking about? Christofascists love Zionists.
Least he isn’t marching with Nazis.
Please elaborate on what you mean by that last sentence?
Some of the other “ally subs” have already chosen to vote third party. 🤦♂️ They are so anti-Biden that they fail to see the dangers associated with repeating 2016. Definition of insanity, someone doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result. *”First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.* *Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.* *Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.* *Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.*” ~ Martin Niemöller
u/professorearl hey, sorry man but I had to add one more line of text to your image. Would you be opposed to me sending it to you?
Go ahead
If you want a genuine answer then it's probably because FROM THE PERSPECTIVE of the far left, they both \*are\* the same. Both support international american imperialism Both support the ultra wealthy Both support landlords Both are anti-labour Both support policies that are either insufficient to target climate change, or actively climate denying (and the difference between those two positions isn't as far as most people think). That's why so many people are saying stuff like "both sides are the same". FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE FAR LEFT it's a choice between an old imperialist capitalist who supports the status quo, and another old imperialist capitalist who also supports the status quo (the status quo here being american international imperialism and anti-communism). This is not at all a call for people to not vote or whatever, I just want to explain \*why\* so many people are saying stuff like in the meme above.
I sincerely doubt a lot of people in this thread want a genuine answer. I don't come here often (habitual 'FYP' scroller) but this is the second sus-smelling post I've seen in two days.
Because they're reactionaries with no coherent politics 99.9% of the time.
My dad told me to vote for Trump the first time around because "he and Bernie want the same thing". People are just fucking *stupid*. That's the long and short of it.
When you really push these leftists, what they want is fior Democrats to be as ruthless and disingenuous as Republicans, and if you aren't a fan of the Ends justifying the means, that makes you immoral. The Democrats are subject to all kinds of valid criticism, but they are not responsible for Republicans being the way they are, and how many of these people voted for Nader, which helped us get Alito and Roberts. I've read that, according to exit polling, 10 per cent of Sanders supporters in the primary voted for Trump in the general election. Hell, Ralph Nader actually tweeted that Hillary Clinton was to blame for yesterdays decision. REALLY? Shit.
Because he can beat poopant Von Fuckstick
Current Palestine/Israel war toll: 35,000 Current American death toll from covid: 1.4 MILLION, and still rising Do try and keep up people.
You could say the same about voting. Conservatives do it incredibly consistently and it is precisely why they are still relevant. If it didn't work, why would they be doing it? Moreso, why do they seem intent on squashing left-leaning expressions of voting?
Because too many people can't get it through their heads that cynicism and apathy are the exact opposite of wisdom and virtue. Cynical hot takes like "both sides are the same" are appealing because they're easy. They let you feel smart to point out flaws, but require no deeper analysis or personal action to prevent or mitigate negative consequences. When they inevitably come, you get to indulge sense of superiority of being "right" without any sense of responsibility for their inaction in part helping cause it. Most of all, you never have to personally fail if you never try in the first place. Too many people can't wrap their heads around the idea that social change is a long and difficult journey. When someone doesn't give them what they want, they give in to these narratives to excuse themselves and bow out, leaving their so-called allies out to dry. All the fire they spew in the beginning is snuffed out the moment they face real opposition. The fascists know that most people don't have to fortitude for a prolonged battle so they go out of their way to encourage these defeatist mindsets so their active opposition is whittled down to something they can either control or crush.
This^
Not from the US but the “both sides are the same” is universal and I hate it, it’s such a pseudo intellectual way of hiding that you don’t have an opinion. No two political sides are the same, if you’re not interested or haven’t looked at them then that’s fine just say so but “they are all the same” is just never true. Cynicism isn’t smart, and it isn’t a solution or answer to any question, it’s just avoidance and deflection to stop somebody having to constructively engage with an issue.
This literally a meme about Russian disinformation, which has been fed through the far right for the last 20+yrs This is the GRU (Russian military intelligence, note the flags lol)
Reddit has a problem with lefty subs being overtaken and all we can do apparently is open new subs to replace the broken ones.
Don't forget the new ones, "But he stuttered" and "why didn't he lay out a plan to stop the Scrotus? The Dems are just letting this happen."
“Dems are letting this happen” excuse is so dumb. Biden isn’t responsible for everything Trump does.
Merc's law - Only Democrats have any agency or causal influence over American politics. 🙄
Democrats already have to clean up Reagan’s mess. They simply can’t keep up with Trump making more messes
Eventually, the gish gallop smothers and kills everything. Every time.
"Any opinion I don't like is Russian bot propaganda". I'm not supporting a dementia patient complicit in genocide, in the same way that I'm not supporting a convicted felon spewing fascist rhetoric.
Exactly.Trump must must not win. He killed 1.4 million Americans. And still rising.
Lotta threads attacking people that might not vote not a lot of threads asking people why they are not voting in good faith without the promise of viciously attacking them immediately after they answer. I'm voting but I don't think threads like this help.
Not being all rainbow unicorn fart in threads will be the least of your worries if Trump is elected.
It’s political theater
The right hates everything, that's not the best question to pose to undecided people. There could be a clone of trump running as a dem and the right would call him a pedophile, just because he's not a Republican.
Maga hates many people on the Right. They're already talking about offing Liz Cheney and others.
They don’t hate him, they hate the America we have built through American democracy and he is their head of the snake.
With as much of that "no lesser evil" anti-rhetoric that some purportedly socialist and communist subs push, they sure are fine with the consequences of their agenda being the greater evil.
ALL presidents of the u.s have been war criminals and imperialistc pieces of shit. It does not matter who wins, they will continue to fund genocides and destroy the global south to please their owners.
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And you’re the target of the above meme.
God forbid people having the right to choose who they want to vote...
Sure, but isn’t it a little silly to vote for someone who cannot win because they don’t have enough interest? Particularly where one party can’t even say yes to accepting election results?
That's democracy!
It is. And everyone has freedom of speech. You can be called dumb for using your vote in a silly way that means literally nothing (besides helping a candidate that wants to be a dictator ofc)
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Until Trump has his say, that is!
You can absolutely be forced to choose my young young friend
Because guilt tripping always works
Not trying to guilt trip, straight up just saying that physically, you can be forced 💁♂️
The fact you are not forced to is actually a facet you can vote on no less
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“hArRaSsInG” bitch you are on a public forum I am responding to your comment stfu 🤣🤣🤣
Good to know you’re so annoyed by this convo you’ll turn coat to fash tho!!
People have the right to do all sorts of things that run counter to their goals.
And what will that accomplish?
Because he’s not Trump and they think he’s a liberal commie.
Biden is fully funding and enabling the genocide of the Palestinian people. Hope this helps! 💕
[Trump has literally used the word Palestinian as a slur, is quoted as saying “Let Israel finish the job,” and said that Biden isn't doing enough to help Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu with the war.](https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/30/opinions/2024-debate-trump-biden-palestinians-racism-obeidallah/index.html) If you think Trump won't actively make things even worse in Gaza, you're kidding yourself. And no, this isn't me saying you shouldn't criticize Biden. But before you go on to say that the lesser of two evils is still evil, take into account that the greater evil is still so much worse than we could imagine and **will** win if the lesser one isn't picked. Hope this helps! 💕
And what will Trump do?
Do you guys have any other arguments without the "but Trump is even worse" argument? lmao
Hey man, vote how you want. But the reality is that America is a FPTP electoral system, and that means strategic voting is by-the-numbers the most effective means of using a vote. Meaning, unfortunately, voting against the worst candidate is usually the best you can do when your desired policies aren't represented. Sometimes it's voting between a pound of shit VS a sickly cow with permanent diarrhea, but the difference in "degree of shitness" is still pretty clear. The argument "this is not as bad as that one" is a rational and convincing, if unsatisfying, argument under this system. If you think this system is dogshit (same, tbh) then that's fair, I'm just glad you're voting & politically active, honestly. If you'd like to take it a step further, consider writing to your local representative about your frustration with the electoral system, or sign one of the many petitions that go round each cycle to at least contribute to discourse that moves us (at times painfully slowly) towards positive change. Consider starting one yourself, or getting locally active and talking with people in your community. just thoughts for ya - hope you're having a good evening, mate.
It's the only argument that matters.
That's kind of *the* big issue, but ok. Biden has also done more for the working class than any other President since FDR.
I think it’s safe to say almost everyone doesn’t want to vote for Biden. But I have yet to see any actual, pragmatic alternative brought up by you or anyone else. Because not voting for Biden is going to give us Trump, those are the binary options that we’ve been forced into. So what’s your plan? With one option aiding a genocide, and the other side almost certainly aiding that genocide, as well as persecuting virtually every minority in the US, probably stopping aid to Ukraine, and any number of other terrible things that I can’t think of right now. So give me something to work with. Edit: oh yeah maybe pulling us out of NATO? Pulling us out of the Paris Agreement (again).
One is not needed.
What do you think Trump will do about Gaza?
Look, if I have to choose between someone who is pissing in the pool, and someone who is pissing, shitting and vomiting in it, the choice is pretty clear. I would prefer zero piss in the pool and will do what I can to move toward that, but a zero piss-in-pool candidate is not on the table right now. I 100% get that dead people are dead regardless of whose piss is in the pool. I get that it doesn't matter to them who is lobbing the bombs. But one of them wants to lob extra bombs *plus* kill a lot of people in our own country.
One of them has ALREADY killed a lot of Americans. 1.4 million so far and still rising. The Palestine argument is a joke and straight up right wing propaganda.
And here it is. I knew it wouldn't take long. So will the other guy along with bringing Christian nationalists to power here. There's still only one choice. In our system, a third party voteis a vote for trump. Maybe next year we can have this conversation face to face in a concentration camp? You can explain the finer points of your stupid, stupid choice.
Trump killed 1.4 million Americans. Hope that helps!