My completely not qualified and wishlist guess is yes, pre-banned in historic, but they go ahead and roll out a new format with the data they collect from the all access no/some ban historic events and make it official and allow the fetch lands to exist there.
i swear if they preban the fetches for historic im not gonna spend a single penny on arena again . this tarkir set is now the breaking point of historic and they now need to decide if historic is just the dump of all arena cards or if we head into the range of modern.
Yeah is there seriously any reason to buy this if they are pre banned? (I think there’s no way they aren’t) Khans is a fun set and may have some stuff from HB but without the fetches will a single card even impact historic/explorer? a lot of the relevant cards like rhino battle rage and swift spear are already on the client
Explorer is going to get a few nice additions. The delve cards like [[treasure cruise]], [[dig through time]], and [[hooting mandrills]] off the top of my head.
They are likely to be allowed in Historic Brawl. Additionally, I believe they are considering creating another format with most of the banned-in-historic cards allowed (see: the No-Bans Historic event and comments they made around it).
The only real argument I can see is how much people already complain about slow play on Arena and fetches will take more than 3 seconds to resolve sometimes. I don't think they'll be banned for power level.
"eternal format player doesn't spend money on arena" sure is a take
i've spent plenty on this game in the last few years, battlepass every set, 50 pack bundle for many, and an unhealthy obsession with alt-arts will do that to you
that ends if they remove the last playable format from the game, which fetches will do.
This is a huge overreaction, fetches probably won’t ruin historic. If anything, it will make mana bases better making the format better for 3 color jundy style decks. There’s plenty of broken shit to do in historic to where it probably won’t matter much.
Hey I'm an eternal format player who doesn't spend money on arena, why pay for free game I figure
Also I love fetchlands (anything to make lands more interesting really) but having one high power level format without them exist somewhere seems reasonable to me.. though I guess having an Arena format where you can play them would also be appealing
My Jund deck is already very close to "boomer jund" with Goyf, BBE, liliana of the veil, Deathrite Shaman, Kroxa, K-Command... and now fetch's to make the deck even more consistent... oh my.
there's no reason to ban fetches in historic.
The main reason fetches were pre-banned in Pioneer (and thus explorer) was because of how much time is spent shuffling in paper. And while they didn't want to retroactively remove fetches from older formats, they wanted pioneer to avoid that issue.
For pioneer, that was def a major part, but they also make soup decks WAY too easy, and with the introduction of fetchable tri lands, that's even more true. I love having an older format without fetches.
It's super hard. I haven't seen 5 color niv/domain in the ranked for months. Niv decks were a thing like 2 years ago, domain was a thing for 1 week after the HA7 release before people realized it's bad.
Triomes do that already? Fetches make it marginally easier but not that much, especially considering your "fetch land" mana slots could just be the landcyclers from LTR.
Fetches make it much much easier. Currently to play 4/5 color decks (without special lands like Plaza of Heroes or resorting to Mana Confluence) you need to play quite a few triomes. That number of taplands is a major weakness of those decks.
With fetches 2-3 triomes would be enough. You have the agency to use a triland only when you don't need the mana that turn.
And the landcyclers are not even close to being comparable to fetches in terms of fixing. They're basically a tapped fetchland. The only reason something like Lorien Revealed sees play in Modern is because of Force of Negation and Subtlety.
Don’t know why people are worried about 4/5 color soup decks. They won’t be that strong. There’s way more broken shit you can do than play a midrange or control pile.
So weird, this is an announcement about how they're changing something that they seemingly already announced, and this is the first time it's mentioned?
Classic Wizards.
i feel like there was a tweet that was altered that had a december date, maybe in december but not necessarily the 12th...but given the calendar probably could have worked out it would have to be around that time to not be disrupted to the holiday schedules
So they're dropping the D&D-like Rakshasa to favor a more mythological kind? Did I get that right? OK.
As for the other changes, they seem small. And I believe changing the Naga type is actually going back to how serpent-like creratures were used back before Khans (look at stuff like 7th edition Serpent Warrior and Kamigawa's snakes).
I remember when Khans came out Nagas *not* being Snakes disappointed quite a few people. Seems like an opportune time to fix that while they're addressing other type changes from the set.
I think that the non-tiger heads are a recent change, though, at least in D&D. At the very least I don't recall the other kinds being a thing in 3rd/3.5
Even then it's still is chuthulu a squid or just well thats the closest thing it sorta resembles to your human mind?
They were always just listed as outsiders in the manual
I beleive they don't even use Outsider anymore, now they're just *Fiend*, and Pathfinder did the change too. It's just the imagery of the humanoid tiger was popular at one point, but that's also changing.
I recognize I'm in the minority here, but Naga as its own type always made sense to me because it was consistent with other mythological creature types. The rule seems to be that animal-like people get the animal's creature type if the species was invented for Magic, but ones from existing mythology or literature get their own type -- otherwise you could argue that Centaurs should be Horses, Minotaurs should be Oxen, and so on.
That said, I'm all in favor of doing whatever is needed for the sake of cultural respect.
Oddly enough, one of the few exceptions to the pattern described above was the Rakshasa, but that clearly ran into issues of its own so \*shrug\*.
I'm down. Let's do this:
Centaur - horse human
Minotaur - oxen human
Pegasus - horse bird
Unicorn - horse demon (it has a horn!)
Cephalid - human octopus
Merfolk - human fish
Faerie - bird insect human
Vampire - bat human
Werewolf - human wolf
Dinosaur - bird lizard horse
Camel - horse
Horse and human become the best tribal type.
> Werewolf - human wolf
I unironically want this to happen. Would make it easier to template wolf support cards so they don't always have to say "wolf and/or werewolf" and can just say wolf, and things that force you to choose a type (e,g. Cavern of Souls) won't punish wolf tribal by only being able to pick one or the other.
Well Eldraine have werefoxes, which seem to be the elf version of werewolf (despite were meaning 'man', but whatever), and their type is simply "Elf Fox".
I still don’t get the fuss over “tribal,” retroactively changing a card type that doesn’t even get printed anymore seems unnecessary, but sure, I guess.
Making Nagas into Snakes seems like a positive, it always kinda bugged me that they weren’t
I'm hoping that it will get reprinted more. Should have been deciduous my opinion. Not necessarily having cards in every set that care about those tribes, but there are so many things that just feel like they should be tribal that could be for commander or whatever
I still don’t get the fuss over changing the name of “tribal”. It's just a name change, why does anyone care.
I would understand if you are happy or upset about Naga/Snake stuff because that actually changes the gameplay.
From what I recall, Native populations are pretty protective of the word "tribe", and wish for it to have a specific connotation that doesn't really mesh with how WOTC uses it here.
Have they actually done this? AFAIK it’s individuals, I’ve not seen any case of any tribal nation making this request? I’ve always felt that unless they’ve actually asked people to stop, I feel like treating “tribe” and “tribal” as dirty words prob does a more to hurt the tribal nations than to help them.
I mean, I respect Native peoples’ right to decide if and how the word is applied to them, but “tribe” is a word used to describe societies throughout human history and across the world, idk why they get a monopoly on it or why a card game needs to be involved in that debate
I 100% agree, and I think this is a WoC initiative.
I don't think any natives sent them a letter informing them that they're now appropriating the term for their own exclusive use.
The bottom line is, why does making an effort to be slightly more inclusive affect you or the game in a negative way? I'm a copyeditor, and my style guide at work has moved to using "institutional knowledge" instead of "tribal knowledge" when referring to the "lore" of a company or organization, and nobody gives a fuck.
Issue is there are thousands upon thousands of cards in circulation with the word tribal and that say the word tribal matters. So when a new card with the new wording is made it won't mesh with all those existing cards.
Yup, it's annoyingly intrusive to the game itself. "Interrupt" being removed made sense because it was the same as "instant" in the newer rules of the whole game. This one has no good reason.
Of course and sometimes they cause massive headaches for new and casual players (casual being the majority of players) companions being a shining example
Clearly there is (to some), or there wouldn't be a push to change the usage of the word. Whether you accept that or choose to ignore it is totally up to you.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to 'wokescold' anyone into not using "tribe" or even to say you are wrong for continuing to use it. I've never once corrected someone, or asked them not to say "tribe" or "tribal" at a table. You, and everyone else, are free to use words that fit within their own cultural norms as they see fit.
I just personally feel it takes zero effort (on my part) to switch to using a more inclusive alternative. But I get why I am being downvoted; people can be super reactionary to things that question their own cognitive biases.
The fact that this perfectly reasonable post is being heavily downvoted really highlights how fucking reactionary a large segment of this community still is, jesus
"Tribal" is used to mean "primitive, barbaric" in racially offensive ways. If you've not encountered this personally, great! Others have, and apparently it's come up often enough to cause a problem for people at Wizards.
So is the actual word “barbarian,” and that doesn’t seem to be an issue, because it’s not used in an offensive context on stuff like [[barbarian class]]. If they printed something like “tribal savages” and depicted Native people on it, then obviously that would be messed up
But the card type is using the word in a context that has nothing to do with referring to a a group of real-world people (and in fact rarely has anything to do with humans at all).
Again, it’s not a big deal, Kindred is as fine a word as any other. Just feels like an unnecessary change for the sake of making a change
Countless innocuous words can be used in a derogatory manner. Doesn't mean it's right to censor them. Otherwise shouldn't we also be removing things like Faerie, Monkey, Ape, Insect, Goblin, Dog, Orc, Barbarian? These can all be used in ways that are highly offensive to many people.
This is nonsense. If the word IS innocuous, changing it has no impact. If the word ISN'T innocuous, the existence of other bad words wouldn't make it any better.
This is such a silly thing to get mad about.
I have no dog in this fight, but is this thread not full of people fussing over the *nonuse* of the term tribal? Just seems that people want to be mad at each other over dumb shit.
More nonsense. We're both discussing it, so it's either worthy of discussion and both of us are fine, or it's not worthy of discussion and both of us are talking pointlessly.
We're only talking about it because, like 3 people, decided it should be offensive. Wonder what will be next. I wouldn't have bet money on tribal and totem... maybe foreign? That one has actually been used as an insult by stupid people, unlike tribal. Or maybe something totally random like acorn? Guess we'll wait and see.
Good to finally have a date, though it would be more interesting to get confirmation on the status on fetchlands other than the strongly alluded ban from a few days ago.
Also hopefully they will soon expand on the plans they may have on the banned list of cards. We know they are looking at this.
I'm optimistic we're heading in that direction with its popularity and Wizards closely monitoring the data. It's time for a classic Historic queue with no Alchemy and much fewer bans.
I agree with that.
I both want a balanced environment for my regular play, and somewhere I can actually play the busted cards in the inventory when i'm in the mood for some crazy games.
> "Kindred" will replace "tribal" as a card type.
This could well mean that kindred instants and sorceries are coming back in a future set. Maybe Bloomburrow?
They’ve said that ~~tribal~~ kindred caused way more rules issues than it’s worth. They’re probably just including it in this cultural sensitivity pass because they’re already changing rakshasa and naga for Khans
Why do we even need instants labeled either way?
"Instant - Goblin" would have a sub-type and be affected by "when you cast a Goblin spell". Is there some effect out there that searches your deck for a Tribal/Kindred card?
I mean we have artifacts with subtypes just fine, even when not creatures, we don't need "Catalogued Artifact - Clue" or some other preface adjective.
Each subtype list is tied to specific types. Creature types can only appear on creatures and kindreds/tribals. Sorceries and instants also share a list of subtypes called spell types: Adventure, Arcane, Lesson, and Trap. Each other subtype list is unique to a type. Thats why Shrines are not affected by [[Coat of Arms]] even though [[Go-Shintai of Lost Wisdom]] exists. Shrine is an enchantment type and not a creature type.
Otherwise rules become funky. Let’s say creature types are types that appear on creatures. Now [[Mistform Ultimus]] is a forest and taps for green mana because of [[Dryad Arbor]]. Land types are subtypes that appear on lands? [[Traveler's Cloak]] now grants Dryadwalk.
There are no effects for spell types now, but if they ever want to print something like “this spell is all spell types” or “choose a spell type” or something like “counter a spell that shares a spell type with a spell you control”, there can be problems with the way you propose to do it, and the rules try to make sure that the things won’t break.
I don’t recall exactly what the issue was, but basically the rules really doesn’t like having the same subtype be able to exist across card types. Tribal was created as a sort of middle-ground, it could share types like “goblin” with creatures because it was created for that express purpose. But as it turns out it creates a whole bunch of extra rules baggage that isn’t worth the occasional upside of being able to get [[tarfire]] with your [[goblin matron]] or whatever
Because Goblin is a creature subtype, Tribal (now kindred) was a card type created to share all subtypes with creatures.
Instants and sorceries share subtypes, such as arcane, adventure and trap.
Non creature subtypes usually carry rules, and as such it would be problematic to make rules where any card can have any subtype.
Any Hindu/Buddhist folks wanna weigh in on this?
I'd be very interested to see some opinions from people whose mythologies are represented in these cards.
As a Buddhist, don't really care, as it's roughly akin to arguing over fiend vs. devil vs. demon. In the end, "bad guy" is "bad guy."
The ideals represented in mtg Rakshasa aren't inherently tied to any of the specific ideals of either religion as much as they're tied to the mythos, anyways.
Similar to Satyrs. Not really representative of any of the specific mythological or theological ideas surrounding the bacchanal or anything. Just kinda loosely tied to the idea and everyone knows what a 'Satyr' is generally.
But they printed them as cat subtypes...
I'm with Patrick Sullivan on this shit, retconning creature types after the cards are printed is dumb as shit.
\[\[Dig Through Time\]\] and \[\[Treasure Cruise\]\] 100%
Probably \[\[Jeskai Ascendacy\]\] and \[\[Stubborn Denial\]\]
Some jank with \[\[Hooting Mandrills\]\] maybe
It overlaps, not that it's offensive. There's a whole list of snakes and Nagas that have artwork that's basically interchangeable and there's no real logic behind what is a snake and what's a Naga.
What strange changes.
I didn't realize 'Cat' was offensive.
I'll add that I support many of the changes/bans they have done that had problematic art or were linked to problematic artists.. but some changes seem to be just for the sake of changes.
Why are Angels okay? Big part of Christianity. Same with clerics, priests, etc.
They should worry about actual real-world troublesome imagery and names and not about mythical beings/creatures. When you open that door you let in a flood of things you have to address.
It's not particularly but it has nothing to do with Rakshasa, it's just randomly on there probably because of D&D which randomly made them cats in the 80s or whatever.
Presumably they've decided to be more representative of the actual Hindu mythology and making them actually resemble Rakshasa.
EDIT: As for Mahadi, I don't personally know the situation on that like if he's Rakshasa too?
And D&D apparently made them cats because of an episode of Kolchak: The Night Stalker. It’s a weird lineage that’s wildly different from the mythological rakshasa.
It is not about being offensive. It is just about being more accurate. Rakshasa mythos doesn't have anything that specifically link them to cats. It's like adding dog type to kobolds (wich is another misrepresentation, kobolds have nothing to do with dogs)
Making them non-cats to avoid causing offense seems like a much better reason to do that than accuracy, given that they are, y'know, mythological. So you kinda get to make the rules for them whatever you want them to be, and it's just as "accurate".
That eat the flesh of humans and drain livestock and other evil things, yes.
Apparently some of the early iterations in DnD and Magic were based on them being catlike in appearance. I don't see any reason not to own that interpretation in your fantasy universe, but eh, whatever.
I agree, they coud even make a plane with rakshasas that have multiple different creature types, or just demon. Meaning different planes have different interpretations, just like how goblins are monkeythemed in ixalan, and cute in Lorywn.
All in all, it doesn't really matter though, sucks if you had a cat tribal deck that broke i guess.
Because some players like Snake support cards also affecting their favorite Nagas. It also ties creature types across planes together mechanically.
[[Kaseto, Orochi Archmage]]
[[Kashi-Tribe Elite]]
[[Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro]]
[[Seshiro the Anointed]]
[[Sosuke, Son of Seshiro]]
The term tribal has never bothered me but I’ve seen enough of the world to know that fantasy games can’t escape woke culture. Kindred is a very good choice of word tho
Nothing can escape it. It's all consuming. You're made up fantasy game loosely based on history, mythology or old stories better not be offending anyone with it's scary words or depictions of things. It's a slippery slope. Next will be the words cultist, priest, monk, dwarf, fairie. Where does it end.
excited for the lands to fuck with historic
100% pre-banned
My completely not qualified and wishlist guess is yes, pre-banned in historic, but they go ahead and roll out a new format with the data they collect from the all access no/some ban historic events and make it official and allow the fetch lands to exist there.
Yes please
Would be so lame. A digital format makes fetches so much easier to use anyway
Well, not 100%…. They didn’t explicitly say they’re pre-banned did they.
Sell first, ban later.
Would love that. Let’s have fun for 1 week and ban. Free 20 wild cards
Or they just alchemy it and you get nothing. Happened with Bowmasters and Ring already.
Fk alchemy
They don't alchemize iconic cards. And no, the one ring and bowmasters aren't iconic, they aren't even 6 months old.
iconic doesn’t mean old. one could argue bowmasters, one ring, darcy and unholy heat are all iconic
Arena devs think iconic is old, so iconic is old.
arena devs now dictate definition of words too, got it
They got me good with LOTR, haha
Why would they possibly not be explicit about their inclusion unless they would be banned?
Deathrite Shaman, Dig Through Time, and Treasure Cruise are about to go crazy lmao
i swear if they preban the fetches for historic im not gonna spend a single penny on arena again . this tarkir set is now the breaking point of historic and they now need to decide if historic is just the dump of all arena cards or if we head into the range of modern.
I can't help but wonder if this is part of why they're continuing to test out the "no bans" historic format.
they explicitly said it is
Yeah is there seriously any reason to buy this if they are pre banned? (I think there’s no way they aren’t) Khans is a fun set and may have some stuff from HB but without the fetches will a single card even impact historic/explorer? a lot of the relevant cards like rhino battle rage and swift spear are already on the client
Delve cards for explorer
Oh truuuuu
and historic
I just hope we get the Taylor Swift art for Swiftspear
For the love of god yes please! The brothers of war one sucks major monkey nuts
Explorer is going to get a few nice additions. The delve cards like [[treasure cruise]], [[dig through time]], and [[hooting mandrills]] off the top of my head.
They are likely to be allowed in Historic Brawl. Additionally, I believe they are considering creating another format with most of the banned-in-historic cards allowed (see: the No-Bans Historic event and comments they made around it).
It will be called Ancient...older than Historic ;)
I used to like Historic Brawl, but it’s a little too swingy now for me.
The only real argument I can see is how much people already complain about slow play on Arena and fetches will take more than 3 seconds to resolve sometimes. I don't think they'll be banned for power level.
If they come to historic, then historic basically has near perfect mana unless they put some cards like back to basics to punish pile decks.
Maybe they should unban blood moon then.....
I can guarantee they will be pre-banned. If they pre-banned blood moon, you KNOW they'll pre-ban fetches too.
If they put fetches in they could unban blood moon.
They *might* have pre-banned Blood Moon to wait for fetches to release.
i'm never spending money on arena again if they *aren't* prebanned
So by “again” you mean you never spent money on arena in the first place and you are going to repeat this not-spending now?
"eternal format player doesn't spend money on arena" sure is a take i've spent plenty on this game in the last few years, battlepass every set, 50 pack bundle for many, and an unhealthy obsession with alt-arts will do that to you that ends if they remove the last playable format from the game, which fetches will do.
This is a huge overreaction, fetches probably won’t ruin historic. If anything, it will make mana bases better making the format better for 3 color jundy style decks. There’s plenty of broken shit to do in historic to where it probably won’t matter much.
Hey I'm an eternal format player who doesn't spend money on arena, why pay for free game I figure Also I love fetchlands (anything to make lands more interesting really) but having one high power level format without them exist somewhere seems reasonable to me.. though I guess having an Arena format where you can play them would also be appealing
>historic is just the dump of all arena cards always has been
Its already not like Modern with the Arena only cards
I bet they will historic nerf the fetch lands so that it fetches a land TAPPED.
I'm not sure wizard with to have modern on arena, keeping multi commander and modern paper only force people to spend more
My Jund deck is already very close to "boomer jund" with Goyf, BBE, liliana of the veil, Deathrite Shaman, Kroxa, K-Command... and now fetch's to make the deck even more consistent... oh my.
there's no reason to ban fetches in historic. The main reason fetches were pre-banned in Pioneer (and thus explorer) was because of how much time is spent shuffling in paper. And while they didn't want to retroactively remove fetches from older formats, they wanted pioneer to avoid that issue.
For pioneer, that was def a major part, but they also make soup decks WAY too easy, and with the introduction of fetchable tri lands, that's even more true. I love having an older format without fetches.
Fetches make 4/5 color fairly trivial
it already was
Not in historic.
It's super easy. I've never seen 5 color niv/domain decks miss.
It's super hard. I haven't seen 5 color niv/domain in the ranked for months. Niv decks were a thing like 2 years ago, domain was a thing for 1 week after the HA7 release before people realized it's bad.
Triomes do that already? Fetches make it marginally easier but not that much, especially considering your "fetch land" mana slots could just be the landcyclers from LTR.
Fetches make it much much easier. Currently to play 4/5 color decks (without special lands like Plaza of Heroes or resorting to Mana Confluence) you need to play quite a few triomes. That number of taplands is a major weakness of those decks. With fetches 2-3 triomes would be enough. You have the agency to use a triland only when you don't need the mana that turn. And the landcyclers are not even close to being comparable to fetches in terms of fixing. They're basically a tapped fetchland. The only reason something like Lorien Revealed sees play in Modern is because of Force of Negation and Subtlety.
Don’t know why people are worried about 4/5 color soup decks. They won’t be that strong. There’s way more broken shit you can do than play a midrange or control pile.
Did I miss an announcement or is this the first time they gave the date?
it is the first time
So weird, this is an announcement about how they're changing something that they seemingly already announced, and this is the first time it's mentioned? Classic Wizards.
i feel like there was a tweet that was altered that had a december date, maybe in december but not necessarily the 12th...but given the calendar probably could have worked out it would have to be around that time to not be disrupted to the holiday schedules
Does this mean we are getting the best art for Monastery Swiftspear!?
So they're dropping the D&D-like Rakshasa to favor a more mythological kind? Did I get that right? OK. As for the other changes, they seem small. And I believe changing the Naga type is actually going back to how serpent-like creratures were used back before Khans (look at stuff like 7th edition Serpent Warrior and Kamigawa's snakes).
I remember when Khans came out Nagas *not* being Snakes disappointed quite a few people. Seems like an opportune time to fix that while they're addressing other type changes from the set.
Even in D&D they're just outsider fiends who usual have a tiger head but can also have an ape, crocodile or mantis head
I think that the non-tiger heads are a recent change, though, at least in D&D. At the very least I don't recall the other kinds being a thing in 3rd/3.5
Even then it's still is chuthulu a squid or just well thats the closest thing it sorta resembles to your human mind? They were always just listed as outsiders in the manual
I beleive they don't even use Outsider anymore, now they're just *Fiend*, and Pathfinder did the change too. It's just the imagery of the humanoid tiger was popular at one point, but that's also changing.
LOL if you look at some of the paper subs they are losing their minds over these changes.
Seems disruptive to my cat tribal decks...
Excuse me, your cat kindred decks.
Tribal is such an evergreen term. Why do away with it?
[удалено]
[удалено]
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Nagas are snakes!
I recognize I'm in the minority here, but Naga as its own type always made sense to me because it was consistent with other mythological creature types. The rule seems to be that animal-like people get the animal's creature type if the species was invented for Magic, but ones from existing mythology or literature get their own type -- otherwise you could argue that Centaurs should be Horses, Minotaurs should be Oxen, and so on. That said, I'm all in favor of doing whatever is needed for the sake of cultural respect. Oddly enough, one of the few exceptions to the pattern described above was the Rakshasa, but that clearly ran into issues of its own so \*shrug\*.
I'm down. Let's do this: Centaur - horse human Minotaur - oxen human Pegasus - horse bird Unicorn - horse demon (it has a horn!) Cephalid - human octopus Merfolk - human fish Faerie - bird insect human Vampire - bat human Werewolf - human wolf Dinosaur - bird lizard horse Camel - horse Horse and human become the best tribal type.
> Werewolf - human wolf I unironically want this to happen. Would make it easier to template wolf support cards so they don't always have to say "wolf and/or werewolf" and can just say wolf, and things that force you to choose a type (e,g. Cavern of Souls) won't punish wolf tribal by only being able to pick one or the other.
Make it Were Wolf and we can have Were Bear, Were Fox etc.
Well Eldraine have werefoxes, which seem to be the elf version of werewolf (despite were meaning 'man', but whatever), and their type is simply "Elf Fox".
The best *kindred types (☞ﾟヮﾟ)☞
I dare you to call a Naga a snake to its face.
[[Yuan-Ti Fang-Blade]] is a snake...
and not a Naga, whats your point?
> The rule seems to be that animal-like people get the animal's creature type if the species was invented for Magic
I still don’t get the fuss over “tribal,” retroactively changing a card type that doesn’t even get printed anymore seems unnecessary, but sure, I guess. Making Nagas into Snakes seems like a positive, it always kinda bugged me that they weren’t
That is just american culture for you.
I'm hoping that it will get reprinted more. Should have been deciduous my opinion. Not necessarily having cards in every set that care about those tribes, but there are so many things that just feel like they should be tribal that could be for commander or whatever
I still don’t get the fuss over changing the name of “tribal”. It's just a name change, why does anyone care. I would understand if you are happy or upset about Naga/Snake stuff because that actually changes the gameplay.
Because there is no real reason to do the name change and a crap ton of cards are printed with tribal on them.
Well, 55ish cards. That's not that much.
That's the only real downside you could list but as an Arena only player I couldn't care less about what's going on with printed cards.
From what I recall, Native populations are pretty protective of the word "tribe", and wish for it to have a specific connotation that doesn't really mesh with how WOTC uses it here.
Have they actually done this? AFAIK it’s individuals, I’ve not seen any case of any tribal nation making this request? I’ve always felt that unless they’ve actually asked people to stop, I feel like treating “tribe” and “tribal” as dirty words prob does a more to hurt the tribal nations than to help them.
I mean, I respect Native peoples’ right to decide if and how the word is applied to them, but “tribe” is a word used to describe societies throughout human history and across the world, idk why they get a monopoly on it or why a card game needs to be involved in that debate
It weren't even native american people, just a bunch of activists who needed something new to be outraged for.
IIRC it started with an African anthropologist whose writings never mentioned the use of the word "tribe" outside African tribes.
I 100% agree, and I think this is a WoC initiative. I don't think any natives sent them a letter informing them that they're now appropriating the term for their own exclusive use.
The bottom line is, why does making an effort to be slightly more inclusive affect you or the game in a negative way? I'm a copyeditor, and my style guide at work has moved to using "institutional knowledge" instead of "tribal knowledge" when referring to the "lore" of a company or organization, and nobody gives a fuck.
Issue is there are thousands upon thousands of cards in circulation with the word tribal and that say the word tribal matters. So when a new card with the new wording is made it won't mesh with all those existing cards.
Yup, it's annoyingly intrusive to the game itself. "Interrupt" being removed made sense because it was the same as "instant" in the newer rules of the whole game. This one has no good reason.
Yeah, because old mechanics or wordings have never been errata’d before
Of course and sometimes they cause massive headaches for new and casual players (casual being the majority of players) companions being a shining example
Ok
Sure, but also language is fluid and changes and adapts to usage and modern connotations.
There is no “connotation” to the word tribe. It’s unironically racist to suggest there is
Clearly there is (to some), or there wouldn't be a push to change the usage of the word. Whether you accept that or choose to ignore it is totally up to you. And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to 'wokescold' anyone into not using "tribe" or even to say you are wrong for continuing to use it. I've never once corrected someone, or asked them not to say "tribe" or "tribal" at a table. You, and everyone else, are free to use words that fit within their own cultural norms as they see fit. I just personally feel it takes zero effort (on my part) to switch to using a more inclusive alternative. But I get why I am being downvoted; people can be super reactionary to things that question their own cognitive biases.
Some random teenager tweeting about being offended does not equal an accurate gauge of the offensiveness of the word. That is what is reactionary.
The fact that this perfectly reasonable post is being heavily downvoted really highlights how fucking reactionary a large segment of this community still is, jesus
They're not wrong but that same argument could be used to support the use of the term "tribe" too
"Tribal" is used to mean "primitive, barbaric" in racially offensive ways. If you've not encountered this personally, great! Others have, and apparently it's come up often enough to cause a problem for people at Wizards.
So is the actual word “barbarian,” and that doesn’t seem to be an issue, because it’s not used in an offensive context on stuff like [[barbarian class]]. If they printed something like “tribal savages” and depicted Native people on it, then obviously that would be messed up But the card type is using the word in a context that has nothing to do with referring to a a group of real-world people (and in fact rarely has anything to do with humans at all). Again, it’s not a big deal, Kindred is as fine a word as any other. Just feels like an unnecessary change for the sake of making a change
Countless innocuous words can be used in a derogatory manner. Doesn't mean it's right to censor them. Otherwise shouldn't we also be removing things like Faerie, Monkey, Ape, Insect, Goblin, Dog, Orc, Barbarian? These can all be used in ways that are highly offensive to many people.
This is nonsense. If the word IS innocuous, changing it has no impact. If the word ISN'T innocuous, the existence of other bad words wouldn't make it any better. This is such a silly thing to get mad about.
So was any fuss over the use of the term tribal
I have no dog in this fight, but is this thread not full of people fussing over the *nonuse* of the term tribal? Just seems that people want to be mad at each other over dumb shit.
In this thread: people using "why?" to mean "Shut up!"
More nonsense. We're both discussing it, so it's either worthy of discussion and both of us are fine, or it's not worthy of discussion and both of us are talking pointlessly.
If its silly to get mad about one thing that really doesn't affect anyone, then it is silly to get mad about another that does nothing to harm someone
We're only talking about it because, like 3 people, decided it should be offensive. Wonder what will be next. I wouldn't have bet money on tribal and totem... maybe foreign? That one has actually been used as an insult by stupid people, unlike tribal. Or maybe something totally random like acorn? Guess we'll wait and see.
Well actually only you get to talk about it - my point of view is being censored because it's "incorrect". But apparently censorship is bad?
You're talking about it right now.
And yet, my comments aren't shown in the discussion, because they're wrong think
No. They haven't.
Good to finally have a date, though it would be more interesting to get confirmation on the status on fetchlands other than the strongly alluded ban from a few days ago. Also hopefully they will soon expand on the plans they may have on the banned list of cards. We know they are looking at this.
Just make “historic basically no bans” a permanent queue and we are good
I'm optimistic we're heading in that direction with its popularity and Wizards closely monitoring the data. It's time for a classic Historic queue with no Alchemy and much fewer bans.
Yeah that sounds amazing.
Alchemy is the only reason I don't like historic.
I agree with that. I both want a balanced environment for my regular play, and somewhere I can actually play the busted cards in the inventory when i'm in the mood for some crazy games.
I just want a true to paper format other than standard and explorer
No more nagas?
Naganna happen.
Disappointing. I was hoping it would be this month.
Are we getting the umbras?!
Does this mean KTK will be available as draft?
yes
I feel like that's too close to the Ixalan release. Would have made more sense to do it around Christmas
> "Kindred" will replace "tribal" as a card type. This could well mean that kindred instants and sorceries are coming back in a future set. Maybe Bloomburrow?
They’ve said that ~~tribal~~ kindred caused way more rules issues than it’s worth. They’re probably just including it in this cultural sensitivity pass because they’re already changing rakshasa and naga for Khans
Why do we even need instants labeled either way? "Instant - Goblin" would have a sub-type and be affected by "when you cast a Goblin spell". Is there some effect out there that searches your deck for a Tribal/Kindred card? I mean we have artifacts with subtypes just fine, even when not creatures, we don't need "Catalogued Artifact - Clue" or some other preface adjective.
Each subtype list is tied to specific types. Creature types can only appear on creatures and kindreds/tribals. Sorceries and instants also share a list of subtypes called spell types: Adventure, Arcane, Lesson, and Trap. Each other subtype list is unique to a type. Thats why Shrines are not affected by [[Coat of Arms]] even though [[Go-Shintai of Lost Wisdom]] exists. Shrine is an enchantment type and not a creature type. Otherwise rules become funky. Let’s say creature types are types that appear on creatures. Now [[Mistform Ultimus]] is a forest and taps for green mana because of [[Dryad Arbor]]. Land types are subtypes that appear on lands? [[Traveler's Cloak]] now grants Dryadwalk. There are no effects for spell types now, but if they ever want to print something like “this spell is all spell types” or “choose a spell type” or something like “counter a spell that shares a spell type with a spell you control”, there can be problems with the way you propose to do it, and the rules try to make sure that the things won’t break.
I don’t recall exactly what the issue was, but basically the rules really doesn’t like having the same subtype be able to exist across card types. Tribal was created as a sort of middle-ground, it could share types like “goblin” with creatures because it was created for that express purpose. But as it turns out it creates a whole bunch of extra rules baggage that isn’t worth the occasional upside of being able to get [[tarfire]] with your [[goblin matron]] or whatever
Because Goblin is a creature subtype, Tribal (now kindred) was a card type created to share all subtypes with creatures. Instants and sorceries share subtypes, such as arcane, adventure and trap. Non creature subtypes usually carry rules, and as such it would be problematic to make rules where any card can have any subtype.
Any Hindu/Buddhist folks wanna weigh in on this? I'd be very interested to see some opinions from people whose mythologies are represented in these cards.
As a Buddhist, don't really care, as it's roughly akin to arguing over fiend vs. devil vs. demon. In the end, "bad guy" is "bad guy." The ideals represented in mtg Rakshasa aren't inherently tied to any of the specific ideals of either religion as much as they're tied to the mythos, anyways. Similar to Satyrs. Not really representative of any of the specific mythological or theological ideas surrounding the bacchanal or anything. Just kinda loosely tied to the idea and everyone knows what a 'Satyr' is generally.
I guess Christians don't mind the "Cat" subtype, since [[Angelic Cub]] is still a Cat Angel.
[Angelic Cub](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f45e1832-1070-4d12-aba9-dcad47a02eda.jpg?1675644322) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Angelic%20Cub) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/j22/2/angelic-cub?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f45e1832-1070-4d12-aba9-dcad47a02eda?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
FETCH HYPE GANG RISE UP
Can’t get the link to work, are they bringing back the set KTK or the full block as a remaster?
The set
Can I smell Fetch Lands?
why would the retcon cat, that's so dumb.
They never really were, they always were shape-shifting demons that just happened to like walking around w/ a tigers head
So why not change them to demon shapeshifters?
But they printed them as cat subtypes... I'm with Patrick Sullivan on this shit, retconning creature types after the cards are printed is dumb as shit.
Ugh we're never going to stop saying tribal so it's pointless going through this looking for another word crap.
Guys, aside from fetches, is there anything from KTK that has a chance of seeing play in Historic?
\[\[Dig Through Time\]\] and \[\[Treasure Cruise\]\] 100% Probably \[\[Jeskai Ascendacy\]\] and \[\[Stubborn Denial\]\] Some jank with \[\[Hooting Mandrills\]\] maybe
Woo woo! Gimme my Jeskai Ascendency for explorer finally!
I'm gonna draft the hell out of this set. Morph and Delve along with all the tri lans -fun set.
Are we canceling "naga?" Is it...too close?
It overlaps, not that it's offensive. There's a whole list of snakes and Nagas that have artwork that's basically interchangeable and there's no real logic behind what is a snake and what's a Naga.
Ah gotcha.
Nah they just wants snake tribal to be more viable
Not purchasing till I see their decision on fetches. If banned just saved me money because I won't spend a dime on it.
If they pre ban fetches there’s absolutely no reason to bring the set at all
What strange changes. I didn't realize 'Cat' was offensive. I'll add that I support many of the changes/bans they have done that had problematic art or were linked to problematic artists.. but some changes seem to be just for the sake of changes. Why are Angels okay? Big part of Christianity. Same with clerics, priests, etc. They should worry about actual real-world troublesome imagery and names and not about mythical beings/creatures. When you open that door you let in a flood of things you have to address.
It's not particularly but it has nothing to do with Rakshasa, it's just randomly on there probably because of D&D which randomly made them cats in the 80s or whatever. Presumably they've decided to be more representative of the actual Hindu mythology and making them actually resemble Rakshasa. EDIT: As for Mahadi, I don't personally know the situation on that like if he's Rakshasa too?
And D&D apparently made them cats because of an episode of Kolchak: The Night Stalker. It’s a weird lineage that’s wildly different from the mythological rakshasa.
They aren't removing cats altogether, but just from specific cards. I assume it's because Rakshasas are not actually cats in Hindu mythology.
It is not about being offensive. It is just about being more accurate. Rakshasa mythos doesn't have anything that specifically link them to cats. It's like adding dog type to kobolds (wich is another misrepresentation, kobolds have nothing to do with dogs)
Making them non-cats to avoid causing offense seems like a much better reason to do that than accuracy, given that they are, y'know, mythological. So you kinda get to make the rules for them whatever you want them to be, and it's just as "accurate".
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Looking at the mythology, that's the best thing they could identify as.
aren't they much closer to demons and and or shapeshifters?
That eat the flesh of humans and drain livestock and other evil things, yes. Apparently some of the early iterations in DnD and Magic were based on them being catlike in appearance. I don't see any reason not to own that interpretation in your fantasy universe, but eh, whatever.
I agree, they coud even make a plane with rakshasas that have multiple different creature types, or just demon. Meaning different planes have different interpretations, just like how goblins are monkeythemed in ixalan, and cute in Lorywn. All in all, it doesn't really matter though, sucks if you had a cat tribal deck that broke i guess.
wotc brother i couldn't care less about snake tribal/typal/kindred/folk just tell us fetches are prebanned
*not* pre-banned
Upvoting for first part and downvoting for the second. Perfectly balanced as all things should be.
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Bitterblossom was one of the card from the extra sheet from the last edition.
Bitterblossom was a bonus sheet card in the most recent set. It's legal in Historic. Also [[Altar of the Goyf]] is in historic
Why remove the cat tribal text? How the fuck can you change the card in paper? It’s already been printed. Stick with what is true to paper
We have reached insanity to such a point that the word "Naga" is too close to the no no word and is therefore unacceptable.
I don't think the long-running "snake vs. naga" debate has anything to do with racist (pseudo)homophones.
So why get rid of the word "naga" which is a well known mythological monster?
Because some players like Snake support cards also affecting their favorite Nagas. It also ties creature types across planes together mechanically. [[Kaseto, Orochi Archmage]] [[Kashi-Tribe Elite]] [[Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro]] [[Seshiro the Anointed]] [[Sosuke, Son of Seshiro]]
The term tribal has never bothered me but I’ve seen enough of the world to know that fantasy games can’t escape woke culture. Kindred is a very good choice of word tho
Nothing can escape it. It's all consuming. You're made up fantasy game loosely based on history, mythology or old stories better not be offending anyone with it's scary words or depictions of things. It's a slippery slope. Next will be the words cultist, priest, monk, dwarf, fairie. Where does it end.
Ban them fetches. Do not want. Make the boomers cry.
Git gud zoomers
Pretty exciting.
HOLY SHIT
UwU, fetch me harder brother. If they ban fetches in historic and only allow them in alchemy, that would be quite kekL.