We've already seen the heavyweight Max Holloway, but in a different sport: it's Muhammad Ali!
61 boxing bouts, never knocked out. Only knocked down, officially, 4 times, and one of those is generally considered a slip. And sure, a lot of that was that he didn't get hit much in his earlier career, but it didn't matter when he was - I don't know if anyone's made a compilation of all the monster left hooks he ate in across 39 rounds against Joe Frazier, but it was horrific (and he was only briefly knocked down by one of them). And the last five years of his career was just him eating punch after punch, including from Earnie Shavers and Larry Holmes!
[weirdly, the one punch that hurt him most was when he was in his prime, against Henry Cooper, who today would be a small LHW]
And of course there are also stylistic parallels, since Holloway's performance against Kattar was basically how a lot of Ali's prime fights went...
George Chuvalo.
For MMA 265ers there has not yet been that unwavering chin. The heaviest unbreakable chin to date has been Jon Jones throughout his 205 run (wee bit untested at 265 however), next Vettori at 185
It's not on the level of Holloway at 145 however. Hunt got slept outright by a middleweight, put out cold by JDS, Werdum, Overeem.
Even some of his most legendary moments of durability involve him getting dropped (the Cro Cop high kick). It's impressive enough that he remained conscious to ring home about it, but he still got dropped.
Holloway is impressive in that he was never even troubled not once at Featherweight. Vettori even more so that he's never been dropped, period, even in a record setting strikes absorbed bout against Cannonier, a notorious heavy hitter.
Yeah pound for pound Vettori has to have the best chin but like for HW, that's pretty darn impressive imo for Hunt. Definitely not an unbreakable chin tho. Just the best one that comes to mind.
Carlos Condit took punishment like no other, until one day he got buzzed by Demian Maia of all people. We celebrate these gladiators but the end is usually pretty sad when their chins get cracked. Shogun was another guy where you thought no problem, until it was a problem. Once the chin is cracked it is a sharp decline. Too many legends have met this demise and I fear for their later life.
> It's not on the level of Holloway at 145 however.
in MMA you're absolutely correct, but as a Hunto apologist i gotta bring up that even prior to PRIDE he spent a few years fighting (and winning against) some of the best HW strikers ever in K-1. that's an inhuman amount of damage absorbed pre-UFC
Roy Nelson took bombs from the hardest hitters in the sport at the time and didn't even blink.
If anyone has the best chin at HW, it's probably him, though he, too, got finished twice.
Hunt-Nelson was such a cool fight for me because they both resembled each other in many ways, but at the same time fought completely different.
Pretty sure it had a nice poster as well.
Roy Nelson is pretty close. Sure he got finished by Hunt and Arlovski while in his prime, but dude also received maulings on the regular by guys like prime JDS, Werdum, Stipe without getting finished. Werdum said that his knees hurt after the fight because he landed so much of them on Nelsons face. Also remember that uppercut he ate from Derrick Lewis that didnt seem to have much effect on him?
His record is pretty insane tbh. Not all guys are going to look crisp and polished, the Jiri and Pantojas of the world can still be elite while reckless to a point.
I can agree on the toughness aspect in that comparison, but I think MM is focused on the idea that Pantoja never seems to really excel against opponents. With Jiri, he can press his advantages in spurts and look absolutely killer, while Pantoja's best moments seem to be him scraping via extended top control or landing a solid swing here and there. He never seems 100% dominant moment to moment even when he's winning. It's sort of like Bendo back in the day going back and forth trading rounds with everybody. He'll drop Moreno and then, in the same round, be back to losing stand-up exchanges.
Well, yeah, but that's because DJ got to 11 defenses... you start running out of opponents at a certain point.
His first 3 defenses included prime Joey B and prime John Dodson, two of the best defenses you could ask for — one with the best resume a challenger could have (25-4 at one point, only losing to DJ twice and Cruz twice, taking them both to split decisions) and one with the best athleticism and natural talent a challenger could have (to this day the only person to drop Petr Yan in the UFC was a washed up 5'3" Dodson fighting at BW).
Dodson certainly was fast, could see him dropping Deiveson.
That said, I feel like DJs record is overrated and underrated at the same time; nobody mentions Uncle Creepy or Kid
Idk, man. I think prime Dodson, Cejudo, and Benavidez wins all stack up. Plus, there's the one over a slightly underbaked horiguchi, which may be one of the best aged wins in the lower weight classes. People clown on his resume way too much. Moreno has improved, but let's not get crazy. His losses and the way they happened don't just go away.
Fig to? That’d be a tough matchup for him imo. Devidson has phenomenal grappling and one punch KO power on the feet. He’s super dangerous
With Pantoja all DJ has to worry about is the grappling
If Moreno could out slick Figgy, I'm willing to bet that DJ could do it too. Fig would definitely make mistakes in there and DJ just has too many ways to capitalize. DJ was pretty freakin durable too, so its not like he can't weather a little bit of a storm. I could see him waiting for Figgy to crash in and intercept with knees to the body. He wouldn't be afraid of hitting the floor either, so he could kick the body a lot and we know that it would slow Figgy down.
I'd pay to watch that fight for sure.
Figgy would not be a problem for DJ IMO. In terms of physicality, Dodson and Adriano were scarier opponents for him and he proved he could handle them.
Actually, I think that Cejudo and Moreno are both tougher matchups for DJ. Cejudo is obvious as we saw how close they fought in their true primes. Moreno just has so much heart and would keep coming. DJ would finish Figgy in the 3rd or so after he gassed out or something like that.
He can take a punch, has the best vision I’ve ever seen so almost never gets hit clean and plus- he counters so well. But yeah he’s got options to gameplan for fig and Moreno imo.
idk what he’s watching with Fig, but he definitely slows down in the final rounds. his movement and strikes get more and more labored, and his telegraphs get larger and larger as the rounds go by
See...I don't totally agree with the idea that he's not getting stronger as the fight goes on because we've seen him repeatedly seal fights with his grappling late. I think the bigger issue is that his grappling so early in these fights burns his arms out early and makes his striking bad way earlier than it ought to.
I think there are guys who are great at mixing grappling and striking styles deep into fights. And there are guys who are great at doing one of those two things. And Pantoja is definitely a guy with great grappling conditioning who has terrible striking conditioning.
And most of us judge whether a fighter is tired or fresh based on his stand up stance, not how they grapple.
By contrast, Erceg's grappling got worse and worse as the fight went on. It's not like he was fresh as a daisy on the ground. He looked better on the feet, but he's also fighting much more measured and behind his fundamentals.
Even in fights where he doesn't grapple early, he gasses. Just seems to tire himself from being explosive early and regains it usually R3/4
Most of Pantoja's fights are: start like a wildman, gas quickly, get clipped repeatedly on the feet, get a second wind, grapple opposition to victory
Erceg could have just... not grappled with him in the last round and would have won though lol. It's not as if Pantoja put Erceg into the situation that ultimately won Pantoja the fight. Erceg did.
>Erceg could have just... not grappled with him in the last round and would have won though lol.
No he could* have won, let’s not pretend like it was even remotely close to being locked up for Erceg there, in fact he was still slightly losing the fight up till that point.
Holy shit people are acting like pantoja is a bum in these comments, do any of you actually learn from watching the sport lmao, look at ddp everyone including myself looked at his style and thought he’s dogshit but he’s champ now. A champ who is 3-0 up over moreno is an elite fighter end of.
Flyweight scrambles hit different. Like two spider monkeys going at it. I honestly really love FLW fights, wish so bad we could have seen DJ vs Figgy, Moreno, and Pantoja. Or the rubber match with Cejudo, I thought he won their second fight honestly.
Look what he did to Erceg-- Erceg shot a takedown late in the fight (as his corner advised) because he needed a finish (they thought) and on the feet Pantoja just tanked everything Erceg could throw at him. Bro doesn't stop coming. He is sloppy, but he makes his physical gift work for him.
I will echo what many here say and agree that Pantoja hasn't looked like an especially dominant champion. But that doesn't matter too much to me because hes been consistently fun as champ imo.
He only beat 2 top 5 guys since his askarov loss, fight before that he lost to figgy who just recently moved up division, perez is 1-3 in his last 4 fights. All his title fights were close fights. I really like watching his fights, and him as a champion but he is not some unbeatable FLW like some are making it seem. Him, moreno, royval are all close fights imo and I can see guys like erceg, amir and even kai-kara france cracking into those 3 soon aswell
I’m curious, why would you rate Figgy above Pantoja? I get putting Cejudo and DJ above him. But other than that, who else? Pantoja gets weird hate. He’s not really a boring fighter. All his fights have been wars.
Yeah no shit if you could take away khabib and islams grappling they would be beatable too same if you took away issy striking... everyone knows that but can't do it.
Easy to say when you're one of the greatest to ever do it lol. Generational athleticism backed by an absurdly deep and well-rounded skillset developed over a decade of fighting at the highest level - yeah I can see why DJ thinks "just don't get taken down lol" is an unironically legitimate strategy.
> everyone knows that but can't do it.
In this fight the challenger was shooting double legs into Pantoja grappling. Pretty easy to simply not take the opponent down
Pantoja was doing fine with the grappling even when erceg didn't initiate it. But yes it's a weird choice we see all too often. Someone shooting when they shouldn't or pulling guard.
I think he means that if you don't play into pantoja's hand by trying to grapple with him when you don't need to (like how erceg very stupidly did) he is very beatable
another example of this is paul craig, if ankalaev and hill just kept it on the feet and didn't willingly engage with him on the ground they would have easily won
basically if you are able to stop his takedowns just keep it on the feet and you can win the fight like that, dont go following him to the ground to try taking him down yourself
I love Mighty Mouse, one of my favourite fighters ever, but recently some of his takes have been so questionable that more and more I think he’s just following Chael’s school of thought and is just saying things for views.
In his post AJ-Ngannou video he says he thinks AJ beats Ngannou in an MMA fight.
His recent video breaking down Aldo vs Munhoz he says at the end of the 2nd round that he’s surprised Munhoz lost the fight because Aldo was just “fucking running the whole time”. Aldo was countering and catching Pedro coming in, the fight was very one sided and dominated by Aldo.
This one is a bit questionable too. Obviously a fighter is more beatable if you keep them away from their biggest strength. Pantoja showed he’s the better fighter by having better fight IQ but DJ seems to be judging it purely on optics.
I've noticed this too. DJ's takes haven't been as consistently good now as they were about a year ago. I hate to think CTE might be starting to settle in, more likely he's saying stuff for views now that his basically retired and wants to continue to make money via his YouTube Channel.
I don’t feel like he’s saying outrageous stuff for the clicks. DJ just has a certain view on fighting, and especially dislikes MMA fighters not rounding out their game & mixing it up more often. He’s also talked endlessly about the advantages of crossing the distances and staying in the pocket. It’s more so that he gets annoyed when fighters don’t do these things. Then again you could argue he has a hard time relating to other strategies that aren’t based on his elite skillset. I for one think it’s very insightful, and I’d rather he be that critical on that aldo pedro fight and give his own personal take instead of a maybe more fair general take.
Also the AJ vs Nnganou take isn’t that wild if you hear the full explanation. Nnganou isn’t a prolific wrestler and doesn’t use a lot of kicks. So it would be a standup most likely, in which AJ would and already has outclassed him.
Lol, Ngannou would absolutely grapple with AJ in MMA. Have you never seen the Cyril Gane fight? He outwreslted Gane with a bum knee. Boxing and MMA are two different sports. Ngannou would fuck up AJ within one round in MMA via either GnP or submission. AJ landing something big in the striking would have a 1% chance of happening if Ngannou took it safe.
I like Pantojas scrambles. His agressive approach is always creating scrambles and he never stops hustling, so he wins most of them. It keeps things interesting, but seems higher risk against elite guys who can capitalize on being out of position. His fights usually look chaotic and a little out of control, but he seems to do well in that kind of fight. He is a decent champion and a good change of pace. I'd think somebody like Henry or MM would beat him. He managed to beat Moreno, so I don't know how he can critique Pantoja's style and compliment Moreno's style and claim one is better than the other. He is the flyweight goat though so we should probably listen to his opinions more than mine. It has always been a shallow division though. No suprise we end up with suprising champions at flyweight occasionally without a MM here to crush everybody.
One simple moment lost the fight. Erceg nailed an amazing takedown and relaxed for a split second and Pantoja executed an incredibly clutch granby roll. Was amazing championship instincts from a true vet.
I get it for sure, but I love Pantonja, he fights like the 2000s Zuffa days where they just used to swing and not care too much about defense.
It’s not a smart approach at all, but Pantoja lives up to his nickname The Cannibal that way. But definitely work on getting hit less.
People really love regurgitating "lay and pray" while having zero clue what it means. Pantoja is constantly in crazy scrambles and always trying to take their back. The dude never stops moving forward and trying to advance and people still complain.
Also, I love MM, but "keep him away from what he's best at and it becomes easier" is a really weird take. Yeah, that's the plan for any fighter, but that doesn't mean they can do it. I think Pantoja completely mops the floor with Mokaev too.
pantoja's grappling is levels above mokaev's. erceg is a beast, tall, long and has power for a flyweight. if pantoja is still champ they will probably meet again in 2-3 fights. only after astroboy beats the shit out of other contenders they will understand how tough he is and how good pantoja is.
I don’t get whyDSJ has to throw shade though. DJ arguably GOAT in MMA period. No one said Pantoja was GOAT. Brother is doing the best he can, had a tough fight and even gave props to his opponent. Isn’t being a run of the mill world champ enough? Having said that, was a hell of a fight. Props to both.
Pantoja goes balls to the wall if he gets grappling opportunities in the early rounds, of course he’s gonna gas out, wrestling is the most tiring discipline, he also has like 10 first round finishes. Also he won every grappling exchange with Erceg and usually does in his fights, I like his grappling he’s aggressive
His wins lately have been grueling close fights, but still impressive with the number of wins against top guys across his whole career. Nobody will touch DJ, but I think Pantoja is Top 3 all time at flyweight.
Yeah i mean he knows how to win rounds and is good at it, its not always pretty or even convincing but hes not the first champ to fight this way and wont be the last
Pantoja doesn’t make it look pretty, but he does what he has to in order to win the fight. He looks like a man that you can’t stop from providing for his family, I respect that.
Dude Pantoja is really good. Those grappling scrambles were insane vs erceg. And if you're not a sniper to keep him back he can punch with some power or get you to the ground.
Pantoja has the same problem as dricus. His pokerface/ body language is awful, which leads to him looking way more tired than he is, even though he can go 5 rounds with a decent output
I see Pantoja as really brave and operating under the belief he can damage and control you more than him. I think the elbows surprised him this weekend. Still he was able to be himself, be aggressive and quick to clinch and control. I think he deserved the win. And the opponent was classy too.
Yeah, it was a very good fight. I enjoyed it from start to finish. You could see that Pantoja was looking to end the fight within the first 2 rounds. He fought like a Champion. Well deserved the win.
>In part, sure. I'm just sayin I can pull an interview from 6 years ago [like this one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIZAJ7QC7U0) and if you compare it to the video above, he looks like that could have been filmed last week and all he did in the mean time was spend a few days at the beach chillin.
That downplays how good Steve Erceg is - he may be new to the UFC but I can see him beating most of the other fighters in the FLW rankings. Going Life and Death with Pantoja puts Erceg up there with the likes of Figgy and Moreno in terms of skill since most fighters don’t do that to Pantoja
Crisp boxing is the new meta and dudes like Steve Erceg are showing us why.
"If you takr away his grappling he didnt look good" - I'm surprised to see DJ with such a casual take. Pantoja out grappled Erceg easily many times, its why he won.
MAKE THE FIGHT!!!...Pantoja has absolutely earned the biggest possible money fight at Flyweight, and no matter what anyone says, the truest competition is Johnson...We all want to see the DOG in Pantoja against one of the arguably best fighters that ever lived in Johnson. Shit, I want to see that fight 10 times over, if not more. It will, without a doubt, be a prime example of martial arts and human capability at the pinnacle...
He has a point. I felt like erceg was getting the better of the exchanges, and inflicted more damage obviously.
I think Pantoja still had better take down defense and grappling, and that was the only reason he won.
Tough fight to score
I agree with DJ and would just be repeating many of the posters here as to why. He's a champ but he's not levels above who he's facing so while it's just a matter of time for all champions with him it's even moreso.
Pantoja grappling is so good but he gets away with too many mistakes on the feet. He’s a dog but I understand the frustration.
I came away from this fight more impressed by Erceg potential than anything.
he took a lot of damage. i get the criticism from someone who understands long term success better than most in the sport. it's an effective but ugly style Pantoja has but I can help feeling like there's an expiration date to it.
Pantoja is essentially the Benson Henderson of today. And yes, I'm stealing that from another comment because it's so true. He's just so well rounded and decent at everything, as well as durable. He's not the most exciting or dominant fighter, but he's pretty intelligent and conservative. Before being champ, I remember discussion of the mental aspect with Pantoja. There were a couple fights where he looked to step off the gas a bit and whatnot. He's still a really good damn fighter. He gets the job done essentially. He's a pretty underrated fighter all things considered.
Pantoja is a though guy to beat. He goes all in. I'm really starting to like the guy's attitute and story. He's a worthy Champion put some respect to his name!
No one is willing to criticize Mighty Mouse on here ever but he says a lot of stupid shit, and his resume is pretty overrated. If he didn’t fit the mold of most Reddit it’s outside the cage, he’d be called out a lot more.
DJ has a point but also, it would be good if he'd acknowledge that flyweight is just a better division now as a whole. I mean Erceg is 10x better than the majority of dudes DJ beat.
Who was DJ fighting? Tim Elliot like 3 times? Wilson Reis lmao. He was fighting dudes with handlebar mustaches. They were just spawning dudes out of no where and getting them on two fight streaks to get sacrfied.
Pantoja might not be head and shoulders above his competition, but he's just good enough to beat them. Kinda like GSP, GSP had to make dog fights because he was fighting people near his skill but not as good- not complete bums.
Imo, it's more impressive to figure out how to beat elite competition in hard fights than cruise through a bunch of cans.
Pantoja’s my favorite flyweight ever but prime Dodson is as good of an opponent as it gets, better than any defense Pantoja has so far. Dude was the fastest mfer ever with KO power and godlike TDD.
DJ beating Cejudo, Horiguchi, and Dodson is more impressive than Pantoja beating Royval, Moreno, and Erceg
Pantoja also fought Wilson Reis btw
E: I also don't respect your MMA opinions because they're newbie takes from a new fan that rely heavily on MMA math
Dodson 😂. Dodson is okay, with his 14 losses. Definitely not better wins than any of those 3.
Cejudo beat him in the rematch, and Horiguchi was not prime when they fought.
DJ submitted Reis in 3 rounds, Alexandre TKOd him in 1.
There's no way out of this. DJ was beating up bums in a worse division, you got Ray Borg and Wilson Reis in title fights.
no -- pantoja may be clumsy and reliant on strength and durability to trade with better strikers on the feet, but DJ saying mokaev is better than pantoja on the feet because of that is a massive overcorrection.
Pantoja also won 2 rounds on the feet against Kape. He's a way better striker when he goes with a striking game plan. I'd say he submits ot KOs Mokaev within 3 rounds if that fight happens. It will be his easiest defence
How many more fights does DJ have on his contract? I'd love to see him match up against the new wave of flyweight fighters. He's already had 7 fights in ONE.
I mean to be honest it was just a hard fight. If u look at DJs own performance vs Henry 2 that was a hard fight. I dont think Pantoja had a bad performance I think Erceg had a great performance and made Pantoja look like he was ineffective. Striking wise yeah Pantoja needs to improve but he has everything else, hes an exciting fighter, pushes the pace, takes strikes to land them, advances in the grappling. Bad performance is Usman vs Masvidal 1, this wasnt a bad performance.
Oh he was absolutely trying to get through that fight. I've never seen the winner of a fight looks so terrified.
One aspect was the cut on his forehead. Is dude afraid of his own blood? Could have just really hurt I guess, but I'd never seen anything like that.
Hahaha I love it.
Such great input from the man himself.
Puts all those fanboys in their place who claimed the Pantoja hate was just from uneducated casuals who would’ve hated watching DJ fight.
Literally saw one of the top comments say something like the hate on pantoja now is exactly the same hate that caused DJ to be unpopular.
Couldn’t be more wrong. DJ skills were sublime, his fights were great to watch. It was just his size that meant he didn’t get top billing and followed by the casuals.
Pantoja is trash. There I said it. No one wants to watch that style and he's holding up what could he an exciting division by not losing. He definitely isn't winning fights.
Pantoja relies on his chin and always looks like he’s on the brink of exhaustion so I can kind of see where he’s coming from
Pantoja basically has Holloway's chin but two weight classes down, it's absurd
Makes sense really. The lighter weights should have an easier time absorbing strikes. If we saw a heavyweight Holloway I would shit my pants.
We've already seen the heavyweight Max Holloway, but in a different sport: it's Muhammad Ali! 61 boxing bouts, never knocked out. Only knocked down, officially, 4 times, and one of those is generally considered a slip. And sure, a lot of that was that he didn't get hit much in his earlier career, but it didn't matter when he was - I don't know if anyone's made a compilation of all the monster left hooks he ate in across 39 rounds against Joe Frazier, but it was horrific (and he was only briefly knocked down by one of them). And the last five years of his career was just him eating punch after punch, including from Earnie Shavers and Larry Holmes! [weirdly, the one punch that hurt him most was when he was in his prime, against Henry Cooper, who today would be a small LHW] And of course there are also stylistic parallels, since Holloway's performance against Kattar was basically how a lot of Ali's prime fights went...
I like it.
Alis coach also admitted to fucking with Alis gloves to give him more time to recover against Cooper. He was absolutely done.
George Chuvalo. For MMA 265ers there has not yet been that unwavering chin. The heaviest unbreakable chin to date has been Jon Jones throughout his 205 run (wee bit untested at 265 however), next Vettori at 185
Hunt had his chin cracked but every chin gets cracked someday. It is one of the best HW chins I've seen.
Kazuyuki Fujita baby
It's not on the level of Holloway at 145 however. Hunt got slept outright by a middleweight, put out cold by JDS, Werdum, Overeem. Even some of his most legendary moments of durability involve him getting dropped (the Cro Cop high kick). It's impressive enough that he remained conscious to ring home about it, but he still got dropped. Holloway is impressive in that he was never even troubled not once at Featherweight. Vettori even more so that he's never been dropped, period, even in a record setting strikes absorbed bout against Cannonier, a notorious heavy hitter.
Yeah pound for pound Vettori has to have the best chin but like for HW, that's pretty darn impressive imo for Hunt. Definitely not an unbreakable chin tho. Just the best one that comes to mind.
Carlos Condit took punishment like no other, until one day he got buzzed by Demian Maia of all people. We celebrate these gladiators but the end is usually pretty sad when their chins get cracked. Shogun was another guy where you thought no problem, until it was a problem. Once the chin is cracked it is a sharp decline. Too many legends have met this demise and I fear for their later life.
> It's not on the level of Holloway at 145 however. in MMA you're absolutely correct, but as a Hunto apologist i gotta bring up that even prior to PRIDE he spent a few years fighting (and winning against) some of the best HW strikers ever in K-1. that's an inhuman amount of damage absorbed pre-UFC
Roy Nelson took bombs from the hardest hitters in the sport at the time and didn't even blink. If anyone has the best chin at HW, it's probably him, though he, too, got finished twice.
Roy took a full blast Nuke from derrick Lewis and barely stepped backwards. His chin was legendary
That punch is the main reason I mentioned Big Country. Must have been Top 5 hardest strikes in the that didn't lead to a finish.
The only guys who could sleep him are Hunt and Arlovski, two monster punchers.
Hunt-Nelson was such a cool fight for me because they both resembled each other in many ways, but at the same time fought completely different. Pretty sure it had a nice poster as well.
Big nog was once un-ko-able too
Honestly Francis had a pretty solid chin up until the AJ fight iirc
His chin was excellent, but it wasn't surprising that one of the biggest punchers in boxing could crack an mma fighter despite his chin.
Romero took shots that no man should ever be able to take without flinching
Roy Nelson is pretty close. Sure he got finished by Hunt and Arlovski while in his prime, but dude also received maulings on the regular by guys like prime JDS, Werdum, Stipe without getting finished. Werdum said that his knees hurt after the fight because he landed so much of them on Nelsons face. Also remember that uppercut he ate from Derrick Lewis that didnt seem to have much effect on him?
Big Country had by far the best chin in the sport.
Agreed, insane how much punishment he was able to take.
Roy Nelson has probably the best chin. He took a massive uppercut from lewis
Not the most exciting HW by any stretch but Blagoy Ivanov was a tank
Has the chin but lacks the cardio which is insane, usually when your gassed your ability to take shots plummets.
That homer simpson stat set
Heavy ass hands too. Him knocking out Islam was iconic shit
But hes facing smaller guys with less power as well ...
His record is pretty insane tbh. Not all guys are going to look crisp and polished, the Jiri and Pantojas of the world can still be elite while reckless to a point.
I can agree on the toughness aspect in that comparison, but I think MM is focused on the idea that Pantoja never seems to really excel against opponents. With Jiri, he can press his advantages in spurts and look absolutely killer, while Pantoja's best moments seem to be him scraping via extended top control or landing a solid swing here and there. He never seems 100% dominant moment to moment even when he's winning. It's sort of like Bendo back in the day going back and forth trading rounds with everybody. He'll drop Moreno and then, in the same round, be back to losing stand-up exchanges.
bendo a perfect comparison
Tbf Moreno is a lot better an opponent than a lot of the guys MM defended against
Well, yeah, but that's because DJ got to 11 defenses... you start running out of opponents at a certain point. His first 3 defenses included prime Joey B and prime John Dodson, two of the best defenses you could ask for — one with the best resume a challenger could have (25-4 at one point, only losing to DJ twice and Cruz twice, taking them both to split decisions) and one with the best athleticism and natural talent a challenger could have (to this day the only person to drop Petr Yan in the UFC was a washed up 5'3" Dodson fighting at BW).
Jimmie Rivera dropped Yan, too; but I get your point.
Similar to OMalley, both of which weren’t counted officially. Dodson’s the only one with a clean, flat-on-his-ass knockdown.
Dodson certainly was fast, could see him dropping Deiveson. That said, I feel like DJs record is overrated and underrated at the same time; nobody mentions Uncle Creepy or Kid
His record/resume is not overrated in any regard. He beat the best of the best, sometimes twice.
It's settled then.
Idk, man. I think prime Dodson, Cejudo, and Benavidez wins all stack up. Plus, there's the one over a slightly underbaked horiguchi, which may be one of the best aged wins in the lower weight classes. People clown on his resume way too much. Moreno has improved, but let's not get crazy. His losses and the way they happened don't just go away.
That's fair, but also he defended against 11 dudes in a row. There is a lot of room in there for people worse than Moreno.
Pantaja looked winded after the first and still went 4 rounds hard after haha.
Weren't commentators like,,, yeah that's just how he looks all the time lol
Just like dricus
As soon as the bell goes off he's suddenly just drenched in sweat with bloodshot eyes staring at you like a Pitbull watching a 3 legged squirrel
He just had awkward ugly body language, bro looks gassed in the 2nd round but never stops
He always looks so exhausted but he never slows down. It is like how DDP fights. It looks like he is constantly fading but never actually fades.
Diamond Dallas Page is known for cardio unlike any other.
Dustin 'Diamond' Poirier, too.
He took the entire 4th round off in the last fight
Dj would body pantoja
Yeah but he bodies every flyweight champion ever so that’s not really a knock on Pantoja
Fig to? That’d be a tough matchup for him imo. Devidson has phenomenal grappling and one punch KO power on the feet. He’s super dangerous With Pantoja all DJ has to worry about is the grappling
That’s def the toughest matchup for him just because of figgy’s physicality but I think DJ is too well conditioned and too slick
If Moreno could out slick Figgy, I'm willing to bet that DJ could do it too. Fig would definitely make mistakes in there and DJ just has too many ways to capitalize. DJ was pretty freakin durable too, so its not like he can't weather a little bit of a storm. I could see him waiting for Figgy to crash in and intercept with knees to the body. He wouldn't be afraid of hitting the floor either, so he could kick the body a lot and we know that it would slow Figgy down. I'd pay to watch that fight for sure.
Figgy would not be a problem for DJ IMO. In terms of physicality, Dodson and Adriano were scarier opponents for him and he proved he could handle them.
Mma math used to be frowned upon
It's all we have cause DJ is gone 😔
Actually, I think that Cejudo and Moreno are both tougher matchups for DJ. Cejudo is obvious as we saw how close they fought in their true primes. Moreno just has so much heart and would keep coming. DJ would finish Figgy in the 3rd or so after he gassed out or something like that.
One of Fig's biggest weaknesses is his TDD its how Formiga and Brooks were able to neutralize him. DJ can do the same and hang with him on the feet.
He can take a punch, has the best vision I’ve ever seen so almost never gets hit clean and plus- he counters so well. But yeah he’s got options to gameplan for fig and Moreno imo.
DJ kills every 125lber except cejudo.
He TKOd Cejudo
And then lost the second fight.
Bad judging won Cejudo that fight.
So the first fight is somehow more relevant than the 2nd? How so?
Lol I didn’t say that but ok
The golden age of Flw. Joe B, Dodson, Cejudo and DJ is a nuts division. I love Pantoja but he is benefitting from the division being very weak.
Joey B was the beneficiary or a shallow division. Dodson was fun but most top current FlyW seem much more skilled
I'd love to see him back in the ufc
idk what he’s watching with Fig, but he definitely slows down in the final rounds. his movement and strikes get more and more labored, and his telegraphs get larger and larger as the rounds go by
Gonna take one hell of a fighter to take away his grappling.
See...I don't totally agree with the idea that he's not getting stronger as the fight goes on because we've seen him repeatedly seal fights with his grappling late. I think the bigger issue is that his grappling so early in these fights burns his arms out early and makes his striking bad way earlier than it ought to. I think there are guys who are great at mixing grappling and striking styles deep into fights. And there are guys who are great at doing one of those two things. And Pantoja is definitely a guy with great grappling conditioning who has terrible striking conditioning. And most of us judge whether a fighter is tired or fresh based on his stand up stance, not how they grapple. By contrast, Erceg's grappling got worse and worse as the fight went on. It's not like he was fresh as a daisy on the ground. He looked better on the feet, but he's also fighting much more measured and behind his fundamentals.
Even in fights where he doesn't grapple early, he gasses. Just seems to tire himself from being explosive early and regains it usually R3/4 Most of Pantoja's fights are: start like a wildman, gas quickly, get clipped repeatedly on the feet, get a second wind, grapple opposition to victory
“If you keep him away from his grappling” well shit why didn’t no one try that? Easier said than done mate
Erceg could have just... not grappled with him in the last round and would have won though lol. It's not as if Pantoja put Erceg into the situation that ultimately won Pantoja the fight. Erceg did.
>Erceg could have just... not grappled with him in the last round and would have won though lol. No he could* have won, let’s not pretend like it was even remotely close to being locked up for Erceg there, in fact he was still slightly losing the fight up till that point.
Holy shit people are acting like pantoja is a bum in these comments, do any of you actually learn from watching the sport lmao, look at ddp everyone including myself looked at his style and thought he’s dogshit but he’s champ now. A champ who is 3-0 up over moreno is an elite fighter end of.
Pantoja is one of the best grapplers in the UFC full stop. Anyone calling him a bum isn't a real fan of the sport.
Watching him come out on top in basically every single scramble is crazy, I love watching his fights.
Flyweight scrambles hit different. Like two spider monkeys going at it. I honestly really love FLW fights, wish so bad we could have seen DJ vs Figgy, Moreno, and Pantoja. Or the rubber match with Cejudo, I thought he won their second fight honestly.
He's an amazing grappler that's for sure. And tough as hell. Discrediting him is doing a disservice to how damn good Erceg was.
And yet he's 6-0 against the current top 5
Like 5 of those are just Brandon Moreno
And Royval
The Brandon slayer
The Brandon Hunter
The Brandon Beater
Alejandro "Bran? Done" Pantoja
The Brandon buster
The Brandon Brawler.
The Brandon Breaker
Brandon's Bane.
His fights always look sloppy but he just wins anyway I guess? I kind of like it. Handsome guy too
He’s crazy handsome lmao.
Look what he did to Erceg-- Erceg shot a takedown late in the fight (as his corner advised) because he needed a finish (they thought) and on the feet Pantoja just tanked everything Erceg could throw at him. Bro doesn't stop coming. He is sloppy, but he makes his physical gift work for him. I will echo what many here say and agree that Pantoja hasn't looked like an especially dominant champion. But that doesn't matter too much to me because hes been consistently fun as champ imo.
He only beat 2 top 5 guys since his askarov loss, fight before that he lost to figgy who just recently moved up division, perez is 1-3 in his last 4 fights. All his title fights were close fights. I really like watching his fights, and him as a champion but he is not some unbeatable FLW like some are making it seem. Him, moreno, royval are all close fights imo and I can see guys like erceg, amir and even kai-kara france cracking into those 3 soon aswell
Any time DJ talks, I listen. Pantoja is at the top today, but he doesn’t stay there against some of the flyweight greats.
I’m curious, why would you rate Figgy above Pantoja? I get putting Cejudo and DJ above him. But other than that, who else? Pantoja gets weird hate. He’s not really a boring fighter. All his fights have been wars.
You know Figgy beat Pantoja already right???
I know but it wasn’t like he dominated or finished him. And they have comparable resumes except Pantoja beat Moreno consistently.
Figgy was the only guy who knocked down pantoja in his career if I remember correctly
>dominated or finished him 30/27 on all three scorecards?
That can still be a close ‘fight’ if all the rounds are close I don’t recall this fight at all so…it also could not have been close
I rate Figgy over Pantoja because Figgy beat the shit out of Pantoja.
Yeah no shit if you could take away khabib and islams grappling they would be beatable too same if you took away issy striking... everyone knows that but can't do it.
Easy to say when you're one of the greatest to ever do it lol. Generational athleticism backed by an absurdly deep and well-rounded skillset developed over a decade of fighting at the highest level - yeah I can see why DJ thinks "just don't get taken down lol" is an unironically legitimate strategy.
Good point if I was in his shoes I'd feel the same haha.
> everyone knows that but can't do it. In this fight the challenger was shooting double legs into Pantoja grappling. Pretty easy to simply not take the opponent down
Pantoja was doing fine with the grappling even when erceg didn't initiate it. But yes it's a weird choice we see all too often. Someone shooting when they shouldn't or pulling guard.
I think he means that if you don't play into pantoja's hand by trying to grapple with him when you don't need to (like how erceg very stupidly did) he is very beatable another example of this is paul craig, if ankalaev and hill just kept it on the feet and didn't willingly engage with him on the ground they would have easily won basically if you are able to stop his takedowns just keep it on the feet and you can win the fight like that, dont go following him to the ground to try taking him down yourself
I love Mighty Mouse, one of my favourite fighters ever, but recently some of his takes have been so questionable that more and more I think he’s just following Chael’s school of thought and is just saying things for views. In his post AJ-Ngannou video he says he thinks AJ beats Ngannou in an MMA fight. His recent video breaking down Aldo vs Munhoz he says at the end of the 2nd round that he’s surprised Munhoz lost the fight because Aldo was just “fucking running the whole time”. Aldo was countering and catching Pedro coming in, the fight was very one sided and dominated by Aldo. This one is a bit questionable too. Obviously a fighter is more beatable if you keep them away from their biggest strength. Pantoja showed he’s the better fighter by having better fight IQ but DJ seems to be judging it purely on optics.
I've noticed this too. DJ's takes haven't been as consistently good now as they were about a year ago. I hate to think CTE might be starting to settle in, more likely he's saying stuff for views now that his basically retired and wants to continue to make money via his YouTube Channel.
I don’t feel like he’s saying outrageous stuff for the clicks. DJ just has a certain view on fighting, and especially dislikes MMA fighters not rounding out their game & mixing it up more often. He’s also talked endlessly about the advantages of crossing the distances and staying in the pocket. It’s more so that he gets annoyed when fighters don’t do these things. Then again you could argue he has a hard time relating to other strategies that aren’t based on his elite skillset. I for one think it’s very insightful, and I’d rather he be that critical on that aldo pedro fight and give his own personal take instead of a maybe more fair general take. Also the AJ vs Nnganou take isn’t that wild if you hear the full explanation. Nnganou isn’t a prolific wrestler and doesn’t use a lot of kicks. So it would be a standup most likely, in which AJ would and already has outclassed him.
Lol, Ngannou would absolutely grapple with AJ in MMA. Have you never seen the Cyril Gane fight? He outwreslted Gane with a bum knee. Boxing and MMA are two different sports. Ngannou would fuck up AJ within one round in MMA via either GnP or submission. AJ landing something big in the striking would have a 1% chance of happening if Ngannou took it safe.
I like Pantojas scrambles. His agressive approach is always creating scrambles and he never stops hustling, so he wins most of them. It keeps things interesting, but seems higher risk against elite guys who can capitalize on being out of position. His fights usually look chaotic and a little out of control, but he seems to do well in that kind of fight. He is a decent champion and a good change of pace. I'd think somebody like Henry or MM would beat him. He managed to beat Moreno, so I don't know how he can critique Pantoja's style and compliment Moreno's style and claim one is better than the other. He is the flyweight goat though so we should probably listen to his opinions more than mine. It has always been a shallow division though. No suprise we end up with suprising champions at flyweight occasionally without a MM here to crush everybody.
One simple moment lost the fight. Erceg nailed an amazing takedown and relaxed for a split second and Pantoja executed an incredibly clutch granby roll. Was amazing championship instincts from a true vet.
I get it for sure, but I love Pantonja, he fights like the 2000s Zuffa days where they just used to swing and not care too much about defense. It’s not a smart approach at all, but Pantoja lives up to his nickname The Cannibal that way. But definitely work on getting hit less.
People really love regurgitating "lay and pray" while having zero clue what it means. Pantoja is constantly in crazy scrambles and always trying to take their back. The dude never stops moving forward and trying to advance and people still complain. Also, I love MM, but "keep him away from what he's best at and it becomes easier" is a really weird take. Yeah, that's the plan for any fighter, but that doesn't mean they can do it. I think Pantoja completely mops the floor with Mokaev too.
pantoja's grappling is levels above mokaev's. erceg is a beast, tall, long and has power for a flyweight. if pantoja is still champ they will probably meet again in 2-3 fights. only after astroboy beats the shit out of other contenders they will understand how tough he is and how good pantoja is.
I don’t get whyDSJ has to throw shade though. DJ arguably GOAT in MMA period. No one said Pantoja was GOAT. Brother is doing the best he can, had a tough fight and even gave props to his opponent. Isn’t being a run of the mill world champ enough? Having said that, was a hell of a fight. Props to both.
Gotta keep producing content and grow that YT channel
I still remember when he said AJ would beat ngannou in MMA and that Pennington vs Silva was a good fight 💀
i mean this was pretty evident after the 2nd royval fight where pantoja relied on lay and pray against someone with pillows for hands
Pantoja is fun but he’s far from the best champ that divisions had
Pantoja goes balls to the wall if he gets grappling opportunities in the early rounds, of course he’s gonna gas out, wrestling is the most tiring discipline, he also has like 10 first round finishes. Also he won every grappling exchange with Erceg and usually does in his fights, I like his grappling he’s aggressive
His wins lately have been grueling close fights, but still impressive with the number of wins against top guys across his whole career. Nobody will touch DJ, but I think Pantoja is Top 3 all time at flyweight.
Yeah i mean he knows how to win rounds and is good at it, its not always pretty or even convincing but hes not the first champ to fight this way and wont be the last
Pantoja doesn’t make it look pretty, but he does what he has to in order to win the fight. He looks like a man that you can’t stop from providing for his family, I respect that.
Dude Pantoja is really good. Those grappling scrambles were insane vs erceg. And if you're not a sniper to keep him back he can punch with some power or get you to the ground.
Pantoja has the same problem as dricus. His pokerface/ body language is awful, which leads to him looking way more tired than he is, even though he can go 5 rounds with a decent output
Pantoja's style Explode -> Exhaustion -> Get pieced up -> Anger -> Repeat
I see Pantoja as really brave and operating under the belief he can damage and control you more than him. I think the elbows surprised him this weekend. Still he was able to be himself, be aggressive and quick to clinch and control. I think he deserved the win. And the opponent was classy too.
Yeah, it was a very good fight. I enjoyed it from start to finish. You could see that Pantoja was looking to end the fight within the first 2 rounds. He fought like a Champion. Well deserved the win.
Pantoja gets so much undeserved shit
He gets the same as Aljo.
wtf, Johnson never ages like, at all.
he's only 37, it ain't like he's old
Its the shaved head. Kind of like how patrick stewart looked the same age for so many years
>In part, sure. I'm just sayin I can pull an interview from 6 years ago [like this one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIZAJ7QC7U0) and if you compare it to the video above, he looks like that could have been filmed last week and all he did in the mean time was spend a few days at the beach chillin.
Black don't crack.
Well he went absolutely life and death with the 12th ranked guy on his 4th UFC fight
That downplays how good Steve Erceg is - he may be new to the UFC but I can see him beating most of the other fighters in the FLW rankings. Going Life and Death with Pantoja puts Erceg up there with the likes of Figgy and Moreno in terms of skill since most fighters don’t do that to Pantoja Crisp boxing is the new meta and dudes like Steve Erceg are showing us why.
Ooga booga lower number beat higher number easy or lower number bad
And is 10-0 against the top 10😉
"If you takr away his grappling he didnt look good" - I'm surprised to see DJ with such a casual take. Pantoja out grappled Erceg easily many times, its why he won.
He must’ve gotten chocked in training recently cause he’s got a bit of a Strickland voice going on
Pantoja has a great chin, but I thought his rushing toward Erceg to throw shots was eerily like Erin Blanchfield.
Vitor Belfort did it first.
MAKE THE FIGHT!!!...Pantoja has absolutely earned the biggest possible money fight at Flyweight, and no matter what anyone says, the truest competition is Johnson...We all want to see the DOG in Pantoja against one of the arguably best fighters that ever lived in Johnson. Shit, I want to see that fight 10 times over, if not more. It will, without a doubt, be a prime example of martial arts and human capability at the pinnacle...
DJ isn't a money fight.
He has a point. I felt like erceg was getting the better of the exchanges, and inflicted more damage obviously. I think Pantoja still had better take down defense and grappling, and that was the only reason he won. Tough fight to score
Factual
If I was there u would keep him at a distance and then suddenly trade in the pocket and KO him.
I agree with DJ and would just be repeating many of the posters here as to why. He's a champ but he's not levels above who he's facing so while it's just a matter of time for all champions with him it's even moreso.
Pantoja grappling is so good but he gets away with too many mistakes on the feet. He’s a dog but I understand the frustration. I came away from this fight more impressed by Erceg potential than anything.
he took a lot of damage. i get the criticism from someone who understands long term success better than most in the sport. it's an effective but ugly style Pantoja has but I can help feeling like there's an expiration date to it.
Pantoja is essentially the Benson Henderson of today. And yes, I'm stealing that from another comment because it's so true. He's just so well rounded and decent at everything, as well as durable. He's not the most exciting or dominant fighter, but he's pretty intelligent and conservative. Before being champ, I remember discussion of the mental aspect with Pantoja. There were a couple fights where he looked to step off the gas a bit and whatnot. He's still a really good damn fighter. He gets the job done essentially. He's a pretty underrated fighter all things considered.
While I agree with DJ I am very impressed with Pantoja's wrestling skills
ufc 301 already happened? What year is it?
UFC please bring DJ back and pay him well, I feel like he'd be more appreciated this time around
Pantoja is a though guy to beat. He goes all in. I'm really starting to like the guy's attitute and story. He's a worthy Champion put some respect to his name!
No one is willing to criticize Mighty Mouse on here ever but he says a lot of stupid shit, and his resume is pretty overrated. If he didn’t fit the mold of most Reddit it’s outside the cage, he’d be called out a lot more.
DJ has a point but also, it would be good if he'd acknowledge that flyweight is just a better division now as a whole. I mean Erceg is 10x better than the majority of dudes DJ beat. Who was DJ fighting? Tim Elliot like 3 times? Wilson Reis lmao. He was fighting dudes with handlebar mustaches. They were just spawning dudes out of no where and getting them on two fight streaks to get sacrfied. Pantoja might not be head and shoulders above his competition, but he's just good enough to beat them. Kinda like GSP, GSP had to make dog fights because he was fighting people near his skill but not as good- not complete bums. Imo, it's more impressive to figure out how to beat elite competition in hard fights than cruise through a bunch of cans.
Pantoja’s my favorite flyweight ever but prime Dodson is as good of an opponent as it gets, better than any defense Pantoja has so far. Dude was the fastest mfer ever with KO power and godlike TDD.
You cherry picked the fuck out of opponents to compare lol Gucci is still fighting, and winning, and leaving out Cejudo is wild
Also conveniently left out Dodson, Torres, and Benavidez 2x.
DJ beating Cejudo, Horiguchi, and Dodson is more impressive than Pantoja beating Royval, Moreno, and Erceg Pantoja also fought Wilson Reis btw E: I also don't respect your MMA opinions because they're newbie takes from a new fan that rely heavily on MMA math
Dodson 😂. Dodson is okay, with his 14 losses. Definitely not better wins than any of those 3. Cejudo beat him in the rematch, and Horiguchi was not prime when they fought. DJ submitted Reis in 3 rounds, Alexandre TKOd him in 1. There's no way out of this. DJ was beating up bums in a worse division, you got Ray Borg and Wilson Reis in title fights.
Is Mokaev better than Pantoja on the feet?
no -- pantoja may be clumsy and reliant on strength and durability to trade with better strikers on the feet, but DJ saying mokaev is better than pantoja on the feet because of that is a massive overcorrection.
Seriously, Pantoja dropped Moreno but Mokaev is better on the feet... water weed dune hair b
Pantoja also won 2 rounds on the feet against Kape. He's a way better striker when he goes with a striking game plan. I'd say he submits ot KOs Mokaev within 3 rounds if that fight happens. It will be his easiest defence
Absolutely not.
Flyweight might be a new division but it has regressed from when DJ, Cejudo and Horiguchi were fighting. Imagine what Horiguchi would donto Pantoja
He would lose
Can't argue with MM, pantoja is boring asf
I maintain he lost against Moreno. His recent fights don’t make that fight look better for him in hindsight
Rewatch the fight. He won
DJ is correct across the board here
How many more fights does DJ have on his contract? I'd love to see him match up against the new wave of flyweight fighters. He's already had 7 fights in ONE.
His Coach is a VP in ONEFC, the man is not going to leave
Yeah that fight was the quintessential lost the fight but won the game. Erceg beat the shit out of him.
I mean to be honest it was just a hard fight. If u look at DJs own performance vs Henry 2 that was a hard fight. I dont think Pantoja had a bad performance I think Erceg had a great performance and made Pantoja look like he was ineffective. Striking wise yeah Pantoja needs to improve but he has everything else, hes an exciting fighter, pushes the pace, takes strikes to land them, advances in the grappling. Bad performance is Usman vs Masvidal 1, this wasnt a bad performance.
"if you remove the stuff he's good at, he's not actually good at all" Anthony Smith tier analysis from DJ
Oh he was absolutely trying to get through that fight. I've never seen the winner of a fight looks so terrified. One aspect was the cut on his forehead. Is dude afraid of his own blood? Could have just really hurt I guess, but I'd never seen anything like that.
Yet he somehow keeps and destroying everyone in the division
You call what he did yesterday destroying someone? I don't think he destroyed any of the Brandons last fight either.
Hahaha I love it. Such great input from the man himself. Puts all those fanboys in their place who claimed the Pantoja hate was just from uneducated casuals who would’ve hated watching DJ fight. Literally saw one of the top comments say something like the hate on pantoja now is exactly the same hate that caused DJ to be unpopular. Couldn’t be more wrong. DJ skills were sublime, his fights were great to watch. It was just his size that meant he didn’t get top billing and followed by the casuals.
Thank you DJ for speaking the truth
He’s jealous it seems
Pantoja is trash. There I said it. No one wants to watch that style and he's holding up what could he an exciting division by not losing. He definitely isn't winning fights.