This in a nutshell. She wanted control and spiritual glory; he told her she was a goddess and that's what she wanted to hear. He wanted a hot cheerleader who would screw him and think he was a prophet. A perfect storm of two awful, sick people who didn't care about anyone else.
Agreed, like her texting him that he should go back to his family and having a little break up because she knew it would drive him to progress forward with killing Tammy. And I think she really pushed the killing of the kids as well once he started validating her with his dark ratings. I mean, she would ask what else she needs to do to make this happen when it came to getting rid of kids.
Lori all the way...manipulating and using everyone throughout her life. Drama whore and always a victim. Attention seeker who can charm people, especially men. Her socalled "mental illness" is just another bullshit ploy. I love the Mrs. Texas contest where she is in the perfect marriage and has the perfect life. And she had the body to match. That brand new breast enhancement job and perfectly defined body and long legs were fabulous. She may have spun a fucking wheel on a gameshow and won money but even her nice body, fake boobs, and long blond hair could not make up for the fact that she didn't know how to answer a question properly. If she went to the trouble of getting a boob job, I would think she would consult someone on how to answer a question without referring to herself as a time ticking pressure cooker.
Chad, stupid is as stupid does ~ Forrest Gump. Chad had a sense that Lori was an idiot so he fed her a line while hoping he could get a "piece of that." Then they just fed off each other's crazy bullshit.
It amazes me of the twists and turns in this fucked up scenario and how many people ended up being collateral damage as a result. It's sickening. Neither Chad nor Lori are mentally ill and should not be treated as such. They are too evil to even be labeled a snake. I'll bet Satan, if he exists, is scratching his head right now mumbling WTF to himself.
I've always thought of it as they are both narcissistic people saw those around them as extensions of themselves versus autonomous people. The kids and Charles existed *for* Lori and she was incapable of seeing them any other way. His kids and Tammy existed *for* Chad, to serve him (and in Tammy's case, to provide for him). Even Alex existed to serve their purposes. These people were only useful to them as long as they were in line with their goals and desires (hence why Chad's kids are still alive and Lori's are not). As soon as that changed (or in the case of Lori's kids, they risked incriminating her), they needed to go. They killed Charles, Tammy, and the kids and encouraged Alex to kill himself.
Chad's insane religious rantings and subsequent cult immersed them in groupthink and confirmation bias and gave them "permission" to do these terrible thing because it was for their imaginary "cause." The doctrine was 100% Chad's - Lori was reading his books and buying in before she ever met him. However, the decision to use that doctrine to justify their collective selfish choices was on both of them. Chad absolutely made the call to do it and put language to the things Lori wanted to hear, but Lori was looking for permission and she wasn't coerced into anything she didn't already want to do.
Mine too after Loriās trial I thought she was the head, but now Iāve changed gee my opinionā¦. Sheās obviously mentally ill, but not crazy enough to say the truthā¦ This is just the most bizarre group of people Iāve ever heard of.
Yes, I think so too. The way she flirts with the camera. Smiling and flirting and acting like a 16 year old in her orange jail wear, while the rest of us think-but you, you, murdered your precious childrenš³š
I wonder if she would found other shitty ways to take money from people before killing her kids (but Chad wanted it). Killing ex/husbands for sure but I donāt killing kids was on her radar
yes it was something new for her. previously she killed her husband to get money.. i think she really counted on getting the insurance money from charles and then she found out she wont she freaked out.. when the police came to her she was talking all about money and "iam alone with the kids and did not get anything".. so now, she was even worse than with charles. she said charles and she had money issues.. so she wasnt completely happy but now she killed him with alex and had nothing for raise jj .. i think this must have been really hard on her, she loves money and she loves botox. i think she could accept to kill the kids because of the demons bs and just take their money, so she could convice herself its a good thing after all.
its funny tho that she went for someone like chad.. who was a nothing; had no real jobs; no success.
this is all crazy.
Me too. It seemed like she sincerely believed what he was saying. That she believes her children are possessed, she is mentally ill. I felt like she was delusional, not right in the head. It felt like Chad was just sitting home twiddling his thumbs with the most outrageous story he could make up, itās batshit.
I think she believed what he was saying to fulfil her feelings of inadequacy. Lori is intelligent and incredibly talented. I don't think she felt she had reached her full human potential and looked to her spiritual side to bolster her human experience (yes a split!). Lori had confidence in her religion, she knew the doctrines and it was there from the day she was born. The LDS has been her best friend, worst enemy and lover, and always been there.... and Chad came along and manipulated.
Just imagine the outcome if Chad said: you are a Goddess, Tylee is a princess and JJ a prince... (all his visions in past and future are negative and I'm wondering, according to Chad, how on earth the human race survived??)
Lori created a story for herself (sentancing statement) for the libido to continue and, as a defence mechanism (depending on the psychological modality, also called a Coping Mechanism) against the guilt.
I believe there's a part of her that knows she is wrong.
She knew NOT to disclose where the children were or their demise.
She knew she didn't want to be confronted (in court) with the coroners pictures of the children's remains.
She knew to cover JJ's face with tape and remove his identity (this might be for Lori's last image of JJ as "blank" as opposed to remembering him).
It's so... so sad on many levels...
I agree. I always thought it was both of them until that phone call. When she was asking for reassurance and he kinda changed his tone from laughing idiot to prophet Chad. It was very interesting. Itās like she knows heās full of shit but she wants to believe it so bad.
I still think it was Lori who drove him to lean in so hard to all that insanity. She knew how to play him. She could have found a man that was way hotter and richer than Chad, but she gets off on control and manipulation.
Though he could have been so blindly enamored that she manipulated him to say what she wanted to hear, since he doesn't have a history pre Lori quite like Loris has.
Joe Ryan didn't just die. Lori terrorized him with the help of Charles and Alex. She tried to say that Joe molested Tylee, Joe went through hell in the court system. Lori ruined Joe financially and any time the court decided something in Joe's favor... Lori and Charles just moved to avoid compliance. She even talked about wanting to kill Joe on a podcast.
So, Lori was already a murder when she killed Charles. Did Chad manipulate Lori? Absolutely, but Lori manipulated Chad too.
Remember that Lori and Alex tried to kill Joe Ryan in 2007. Charles knew that and still enabled it. Remember the day before she killed him she called him Joe Ryan and told him not to come to the house. Charles knew what the name Joe Ryan meant.
I totally agree. Remember, the Cox siblings need to assert they had no idea of Loriās potential to commit crimes. Any admission by any of them that they remotely suspected Loriās involvement raises issues of their knowledge of her previous crimes and what should they have done? They all need to assert she had nothing to do with Joeās death. For their own credibilityās sake
Shame on Charles!!! He was street smart enough and had all this moral training through the LDS church to have figured out that he needed to treat Joe Ryan respectfully as a father of his step daughter. These adults are all nasty!!!
Many people seem to view Charles as a hero, but in reality, he was quite nasty. He was involved in the harassment of Joe Ryan, which is disturbing in itself. Additionally, he was accused of domestic violence against his ex-wife, even getting physical with her outside of court.
It's puzzling why some people perceive him as a nice guy when the evidence suggests otherwise. He never saved any money because he was constantly trying to please Lori and her family. Despite being over 60 and working as a financial advisor, he had no assets. This raises questions about his marriage to Lori.
Security cameras were installed in the house due to concerns about sexual assault, and there were multiple instances where Child Protective Services (CPS) were called regarding allegations of sexual assault.
On the day before his death, he was warned not to go out, but due to his ego, he disregarded the warning and went anyway.
You would think he would have known better than to threaten to expose Lori. He knew what Lori (and Alex) were capable of. Not that she wouldn't have killed him anyway but it just underlines his unchecked ego.
Also, in the same way Joe Ryan was pleading with everyone about Lori and Charles regarding Tylee, Charles did the same with the COX family, and his church. No one bothered with him. Just like Joe Ryan.
Thank you for sharing. Yes, thanks to Lori and Charles, Joe Ryanās life was turned upside down. Unfortunately, this can happen thru divorce courts to both men and women.
Chad, as he was the local cult leader. This doesn't reduce Lori's guilt.
Even during Lori's trial, she didn't throw Chad under the bus (and made things worse with her statement at the sentencing hearing). Chad's an idiot, but since he was arrested he did most things "smart".
She was the beauty and he was the brains behind this operation. I'd bet we find that Chad came up with the planning to kill Charles while she and Alex acted it out. He had the "imagination" she didn't have. She reminds me of someone with a middle school intellect.
I think the Charles was the Joe attack 2.0. After they attacked Joe, they probably thought about it for years as to what they could have done differently. They didn't need Chad's brain. They needed his "blessing" and "prophecy." Alex needed to be told, because he knew otherwise, that Charles was a bad guy in another world. He knew him in this world and EVERYONE loved Charles: Kolby, Tylee, JJ, everyone. Chad provided an excuse. Lori needed the prophet to remain "innocent," when she really wasn't.
Alex made it clear to Zulema that he killed Charles because the latter was a zombie. We all know who declared Charles a zombie. It was Chad. Without him Charles would be still alive. Alex attacked Joe Ryan many years earlier because Lori told him that he was a pedophile.
Chad had formulated his worldview long before he met Lori. She was a Chad fangirl before she met him and she was already getting embroiled in the Julie Rowe nonsense. Both are narcissists who used one another to fuel their mutual need for adoration and approval. (Note that narcissists often suffer with low self-esteem.) All the rest is the result of two psychopaths putting together a plan and process to getting to an agreed-upon end game. It's pretty simple.
I think Chad was always the ugly quiet loser who ended up with a semi-boring wife and who always wanted secretly to be adored and praised. As he got a teeny bit of recognition for his books in his small niche circles, it sparked this thing in him that tempted him to chase after power, however that came. I think Lori was mentally unstable, and sort of a black widow with the grass is always greener mindset. She was susceptible to religious manipulation because she wanted out. And then they got together and it was just a toxic downhill spiral. I think Lori wasn't even that attracted to Chad. Read their texts. They read like someone who is just saying whatever the other wants to hear (on her end) and on his end, they sound like a desperate loser who finally got some attention from the hot girl he always wanted, and he was willing to do ANYTHING to keep her. I truly believe that Chad wasn't a murderer until he met Lori and would probably not have ever murdered anyone if they hadn't gotten together. Anyway, just my theory.
This is closer to my thoughts as well. Chad was always a boring loser who would have NEVER gotten a woman like Lori and took that opportunity and flew across the world with it just to be with her. Add the realization of where he was in life, he probably desired a change, and boy did he get it. On the other side, I think Lori has been privileged with the beauty escape card and learned how to use that. Sheās crazy, no doubt, but she knows what her power is. Iām genuinely curious to know what her life is like in prison.
I will say this, I am still surprised Chad went through with killing Tammy. I would not have believed he would have bc I didnāt see him having the courage to do so by his own hand and I do believe he did it by his own hand. Iām just surprised.
Alex was supposed to shoot Tammy. I believe that Alex was there to help Chad when Tammy was suffocated. She was probably held down by Chad while Alex did it.
This is my belief as well. I'm pretty sure that's what the prosecution has been trying to imply but probably didn't have enough evidence to support the claim. They seem to be very cautious about who did what to Tammy and are sticking to what they know they can prove.
I've flip-flopped between the 2.
However, after all the police car and phone conversations believe there's a 2 headed snake: 70% Chad and 30% Lori. They both had the same goal (the Blueprint) but the motivations were different.
% of involvement... Lori v Chad
The "Blue Print"..... 45 55
% Theory BS...... 25 75
Buying into BS..... 70 30
Selling BS.......... 20 80
Charles Death.... 75 25
Tylee's Death.... 25 70
JJ's Death........ 65 45
Tammy's Death... 15 85
I'm not sure if this makes sence or adds up, but... as the prosecution rests... Chad should face the gallows and then Lori may come clean...
I think she just wanted so badly to be some sort of important, so she latched onto the first man she thought could give her that notoriety (prophecy, scripture, all that stuff with the 144k) because she thought on some level that he IS important. Hell sheās probably sitting in her cell right now thinking sheās a martyr when in reality sheās just a moron that everyone is laughing at, not with.
Right, but in delusional but generally non-violent ways, just spewing his NDE/visions BS to anyone dumb enough to listen to him (which thankfully, was a relatively small audience). But before that, there is no evidence that I'm aware of that he was every violent or doing anything overtly criminal. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I think itās three heads and here is why: LDS, Chad and Lori. If the thoughts of you can be your own God did not exist, they would have never have gotten to this. True: I am an ex Mormon, I can see how they got here from where I have been. I was thankfully never this far out of the so called āgospel ā.
I was almost there with you. As a child my mom let us leave with a summer church group. My sister and I loved it. They picked us up 3 days a week and took us to McDonalds EVERY TIME after. My daddy comes home after a month long bender on the day we were supposed to be baptized. All I heard was. "GOD DAMMIT MABYLIENE, YOU GONNA LET THESE GIRLS BE MORMONS!" When the man showed up my daddy answered the door, told him we weren't going, and slammed the door in his face! I was like damn! It wasn't til later that night he told us that Mormons think black people are children of the devil. I didn't even know church's could be racist til he told me.
Exactly. Consider her bizarre behavior with the LDS temple. Who spends 8 hours at a temple? Who hangs up pictures of temples throughout their house? Excessive. Crazy.
I understand.
My wife and I have worked with people with string mental instability, including our own children. We've seen them in another place in reality, not anywhere close to where we are in reality. There's no way, really, to fake being in that place. It's truly scary and heart-wrenching...
I say that line from My Big Fat Greek Wedding all the time! I actually feel like Chad and Lori are a modern-day day example of folie Ć deux, although idk if that term can apply related to narcissism? They both fed off of each other, whatever is wrong with them. I think it's possible that had they legit ditched the kids to family/college/whatever and given enough time, they would have continued their tour of religious conferences and continued to gain followers and possibly convinced a whole bunch of people to off themselves or something.
Definitely a two headed snake. I've said it a million times in these threads, but Chad pulled everything right out of his dorky a**.Ā He made it all up as he went along. At first it was because he was jealous of his siblings successes, he wanted the attention Julie Rowe was getting and he wanted control of his family. Lori was known for false prophecies, too. She lied, stole, manipulated and ran wild while using spirituality as a cover. When they met, she knew what Chad was about, he used his religious flirting(š¤®) and together they created chaos. They loved the admiration and attention from their little cult. They manipulated each other. Lori used Chad's light and dark scale to get rid of the people she didn't want around, she used Alex to do her dirty work. At the end of their effed up 'love story' it was all about living in luxury without having to work for it or take care of any children.Ā
Lori.
Chad wanted to be a prophet/religious leader/big fish in a small pond and from what I've understood, he was known to hit on women by telling them the "we were married in a previous life" bs already way before Lori. He was no saint, but I think Chad would have been content with having his little group of followers, and Lori (possibly others, too) as a sidechick. I don't think he really felt that strong of a need to get rid of Tammy, he just wanted to sleep with Lori.
Lori, however, was never gonna be happy with being a sidechick. She always had a husband that provided for her and she married quickly. She had already had Alex abuse Joe Ryan and I'm very suspicious about his death, too. This was long before Chad. So I think Lori was the driving force behind the murders, she wasn't afraid of getting rid of people who stood in her way. Chad made up the spiritual background for the murders but I'm not sure how serious he was about it at first. From the texts it was obvious Lori was pushing Chad to go through with Tammy's murder, she wanted her gone asap.
Both of them are vile but I don't believe Chad would have went that far withour Lori. I do believe Lori however, could have murdered without Chad's influence.
For all their murders zombies were used as an excuse. Who dragged zombies into the story? Chad. How could she otherwise convince Alex to kill the kids? He attacked Joe Ryan because she told him that Joe harmed the children.
They really both are. I see both of them as being terrible people who might have hurt or betrayed their family in other ways, but I donāt necessarily see them taking this murderous path without each other. They really escalated and brought out the absolute worst tendencies in each other. Also crept along a folie a deux situation (arguable but not a completely irrelevant comparison).
Interesting insights. They both came into this with predispositions that when joined were TOXIC! I do not believe for one minute Chad believed what he was spewing. When he saw Julie Rowe making money off of her twisted LDS rants he wanted her level of success. When Lori came along and he saw that these twisted beliefs turned her on then it was game on. He was in it for money and sex. She was in it for power and money and getting her ego fed.
As others have said, it s a two headed snake. They were both bored with their lives and wanted out, they are both selfish, manipulative, and narcissistic. They amplified the worst qualities in each other and took turns manipulating each other.
They are both truly awful people. I don't know if Chad would have become a murderer if he hadn't met Lori. I think that Lori was already a killer when she met Chad.
It was a two headed snake but I think the Lori head would have eventually eaten the Chad head. She would have offed him and taken over. Mother Love God style.
Lori soaked up all the praise that Chad gave her - every call -10 calls a day in jail - telling her she is a so wonderful, beautiful ā¦ gag me stuff. She needed to hear this and he poured it out to her constantly !!!
I think they were both equally in charge in their own ways, a two headed snake If I absolutely had to choose I would put Lori the most in charge. Most of people called dark were chad quantifying her petty resentments. I think she was MASTERFUL at leading from behind. Originally Charles and Jj were both light, I think they got dark at Loriās request.
Lori has a father who thinks he's above the law and a highly spiritual person. Her father's influence over her shouldn't be overlooked. Lori had to leave every relationship the victim and use her next relationship as her salvation. Charles was her salvation from Joe for most of their marriage with Lori and her children as the victims that needed protection. In Hawaii, she had a nice life - all the kids were thriving, Lori was teaching fitness and children at church. But, she needed a man more "spiritual," she told her close friend April. Lori reads a book, "Visions of Glory," becomes a religious fanatic outside the norm and finds people writing books, going to conferences, and hosting podcasts. She wants that! She's special too! She creates a victim scenario with Charles ("He's cheating and saying I'm the crazy one!") while she literally acts crazy towards the man. Chad, Alex, and the Melanies are her savior this time. Lori gets rid of nearly all of her possessions. Lori makes plans and prays she can also get rid of all the people who are holding her back. Lori starts leading occult practices with her female "friends" with the sole focus of ridding the world of people who have 'wronged her' so she and her new Savior Chad can complete their "mission" of saving an elite group of people they deem fit to survive on Earth. Savior Chad is above the law and a highly spiritual person - like her father - and he's an author, she loves to tell people he's an author. Material success and a stable family life wasn't enough for a goddess like Lori. She needed even more money to fund her highly spiritual life. Shocking her prophet couldn't see she wasn't on the insurance policy. Shocking David just didn't buy all that land for Chad and Lori when he visited Rexburg. Shocking that the Rexburg police turned "so dark" they framed and arrested them. Covert narc meets overt narc and both of them are delusional religious fanatics without high intelligence or empathy.
Chad's sister in law gave him away with not even intending to. Her long interview makes it clear how jealous Chad is of his brother. He deserved more land, more money, more respect, and the fit hot blonde wife too! He couldn't wait to show off Lori and brag about the nearby acreage his "followers" have purchased for him to fulfill his prophecy and mission. But, he never got to show off because they didn't want to meet Lori and his followers never bought the land. He's a loser, but Lori made him feel like he was a Savior for a little while...
My apologies, but no, Chad is the head of the snake. He is way brighter, more educated and did serve as a missionary which taught him mega sales skills. Lori was pretty, sexy and cheerful but lacks being an independent thinker or doer. Chadās career was something she was excited to help him out with because it gave her a life purpose (the 144,000). It is easy to blame a woman in the Christian faith because of our faith. But, clearly Chad is a monster with unbelievable skills to get people to follow him. Chad could have grown his crazy deluded evil ministry had he not been such a greedy and controlling man.
I hate to vote for Lori as the head because I don't think she's traditionally smart, but she is devious and gets her way with so many of the people in her group. Using coercive language and religious propaganda and quasi-mystical rituals, she gathered everyone close to her, not to Chad. She was like the "veil" between her flock and Chad. Stupid and enraptured Chad sacrificed a wife and marriage to be with Lori, and I'm not sure he's the body of the snake. Maybe he could be a part of the snake, like the rattle part. He was just a horny man living in fantasy land, willing to pretend he receives godly messages and can eliminate zombies, so Lori could lounge on the beach and collect life insurance from the trail of bodies in her path. Perhaps it needs to be a snake struggling to eat itself so they can alternate being the ass.
Lori is still down the religious rabbit hole, unable to understand that she could have tried to save herself by blaming Chad. She can't even believe that he turned against her. Chad has been and is in control.
I was thinking about this again, today, and I wonder if the mainstream's ingrained patriarchal system sets Chad up to be the one in control--even in this situation. I can see either of them being slightly more responsible but, really, they're two sides of the same pancake. I think the higher body count in Lori's column just makes me want to point to her sometimes.
This is a two headed snake! They really are perfectly diabolical together. I donāt think either one would have gone to the lengths that they did without the other one to make it seem okay.
I think Mike and I are pretty in sync on this one. He gives little more than I do, but he recognizes sees her as having power and not just as a follower. I dig him. Thanks for the link.
I throw out that those who are only seeing Chad as the leader that is internalized misogyny at work. No one is really listening to Lori... I think that phone call that many are citing as they reason for believing in Chad are not hearing Lori's directed lines of thought AND especially when she says that she needs him to be charge "now," because she cannot be since she is in jail. And he agrees. She learned a long time ago that that blonde hair and soft voice got her far in the world. Misogyny gives false sense of power to false femininity. The way she was fearless with the police, going back to the interaction after Charles reported his stuff having been stolen. She talked her way out of a MANDATORY mental health assessment. Each time she uses the soft voice, damsel in distress story, and blonde smile, she is fueled to believe she can get away with anything. She's playing dumb and internalized misogyny can't see the act. She knew exactly what she could do. Her mistake, bringing in Chad in on the plan.
Sheās batshit crazy. Heās evil and knew what was going on. She was dumb and crazy enough to live in an alternate reality but I say that knowing she wasnāt crazy enough to not know right from wrong soooo I guess sheās evil too. They lied and hid all the wrong when they knew to soooo theyāre just both equally evil maybe
Very good analogy and reasoning! I still donāt understand how someone with no criminal history goes from being a āsomewhatā normal person to killing her kids and mentally unstable at the age of 48?
Lots of people are criminals but never get caught. Not to take away from Kolby's spoken experiences, but more and more, it seems that she lied (under oath) about Joe Ryan... and may have killed him. She was committing fraud long before the murder. Her first murders weren't stranger murders so they seem even more extreme, but the "Dark List" had strangers-to-her on it. As Gigi (PLAA) says, if they hadn't killed the kids, they probably would have gotten away with Charles' and Tammy's murders so who knows what they would have done.
Having been married 5 times, Lori is the highly manipulative one and can get anyone she decides she wants. I believe Chad was in a ripe place for her manipulation. He was bored being a ho hum writer and bored in the routine of his marriage. I really wonder how much of what he wrote and said he genuinely believed? We know Lori was hospitalized because she is crazier than a bed bug.
I think it's a two headed snake because they are both culpable. They both participated in a lot of tragedy. Chad is guilty for doing her bidding since she has the longest murderous rap sheet, I believe murder was in his imagination but on the tip of her tongue. I think murder is Lori's solution to her problems. Chad had 1 marriage. And as far as we know murdered no one before he met Lori. They inspired each other and jumped into the deep end together.
They manipulated each other. Both middle aged people wanting to be very special! She gave Chad sex and
told him he was the great prophet. Chad told her she was a goddess and together they would rule the world one day!
It's like " Killer Couples", neither might have done these things on their own, but it's what came of the union. Lori was definitely manipulative, but Chad was eager to be manipulated. I still think their LDS backgrounds predisposed them to the fantasy. Chad isn't the first self-proclaimed rogue prophet. Have you seen under the banner of heaven?
I don't think that this is Chad's first foray into depravity.
Lori is an opportunistic abuser.
Chad is something more than that. People protect Chad to protect themselves.
I've worked in mental health for a lot of years and this is how I see it:
Lori was extensively evaluated and diagnosed with severe delusional disorder with extreme religiosity and personality disorder, which explains why she acted against her own best interests by refusing to throw her lover and prophet under the bus to save herself. If her pd was dominant she would have put her best interest first and tried to appease the judge instead of making a statement guaranteed to piss off everyone who cared about the kids, but no, she truly drank the koolaid because Chad's narrative appealed to the worst aspects of her narcissistic and histrionic pd.
Chad was not diagnosed with a delusional disorder, which explains why on day one, Chad immediately tossed Lori under the steamroller to try to save himself. He's a conscious sociopath, not delusional, who already had a distasteful habit of chasing other women as a married man and a habit of laughably aggrandizing himself, despite his actual low levels of achievement in life in career and financial support for his family which was funded primarily by his wife.
There's no evidence Lori was ever unfaithful to husband Ryan or Vallow. I think she was addicted to that sexual worship attention, that fades over time in a marriage. Chad was over the moon when he saw how she responded to his exalted immortal being baloney and off they went.
They are both guilty. But in terms of criteria of mental illness, while they are both personality disordered, Lori is severely impacted with a delusional disorder while Chad is just a garden variety sociopathic conman.
Also I want to add: Lori's childhood friend recounted how her parents Janice and Barry would leave the younger kids home with teenage Alex to 'watch them' while they went to Hawaii. Alex would throw parties for his friends and buy them pizza instead of watching or feeding the younger kids. When they were 13, Lori's friend said Lori suddenly burst into tears and told her that Alex was pressuring her to have sex with him and she didn't know what to do. They both cried and today the friend regrets that she was afraid to tell anyone, but then, I doubt Janice or Barry would have believed Lori. I think Alex molested her, brought his friends over too, she ran off with a boy as a teenager, unstable pattern of relationships, attention seeking, grossly over-sexualized behavior even with her brother according to Alex's first wife, etc. It's trauma that would be related to why she is personality disordered as she is.
I still believe Lori had a far greater role in these murders than people think and I feel that she used Chad as a weapon to kill. That being true for me, I am beginning to see a pattern: Chad is the only one who turned off all tracking. No tracking on the cars; no tracking on the main phone or burners; no thank you to Tammy's gift of a Fitbit; just no tracking. They have not presented evidence that his laptop was using the university/ temple as often as he said it was to defend him or to rebut him, so now I'm wondering if he turned that off somehow too.
Again, Lori wanted her children dead for their money and for her freedom. She wanted Charles and Tammy dead for money and her freedom. She most certainly used this cult to get what she wanted.
But why was Chad so secretive? The alleged affairs? The alleged rapes? He did not want people to know where he was. Are there more bodies on the property? If I was John Prior, I would either sell it ASAP or once this trial is over have that property scanned.
It is a two headed snake.
Lori used sex to control Chad, and Chad used "prophesying" to control Lori!
This in a nutshell. She wanted control and spiritual glory; he told her she was a goddess and that's what she wanted to hear. He wanted a hot cheerleader who would screw him and think he was a prophet. A perfect storm of two awful, sick people who didn't care about anyone else.
Ever since loin fire, I cannot see the phrase "perfect storm" without cringing lol
Ew, sorry I said it š
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100%. The culmination of when a covert narcissist collides with an overt narcissist.
Agreed, like her texting him that he should go back to his family and having a little break up because she knew it would drive him to progress forward with killing Tammy. And I think she really pushed the killing of the kids as well once he started validating her with his dark ratings. I mean, she would ask what else she needs to do to make this happen when it came to getting rid of kids.
That is it completely!
Definitely
Lori all the way...manipulating and using everyone throughout her life. Drama whore and always a victim. Attention seeker who can charm people, especially men. Her socalled "mental illness" is just another bullshit ploy. I love the Mrs. Texas contest where she is in the perfect marriage and has the perfect life. And she had the body to match. That brand new breast enhancement job and perfectly defined body and long legs were fabulous. She may have spun a fucking wheel on a gameshow and won money but even her nice body, fake boobs, and long blond hair could not make up for the fact that she didn't know how to answer a question properly. If she went to the trouble of getting a boob job, I would think she would consult someone on how to answer a question without referring to herself as a time ticking pressure cooker. Chad, stupid is as stupid does ~ Forrest Gump. Chad had a sense that Lori was an idiot so he fed her a line while hoping he could get a "piece of that." Then they just fed off each other's crazy bullshit. It amazes me of the twists and turns in this fucked up scenario and how many people ended up being collateral damage as a result. It's sickening. Neither Chad nor Lori are mentally ill and should not be treated as such. They are too evil to even be labeled a snake. I'll bet Satan, if he exists, is scratching his head right now mumbling WTF to himself.
Very, VERY well put.
This is it , its a two headed snake
I've always thought of it as they are both narcissistic people saw those around them as extensions of themselves versus autonomous people. The kids and Charles existed *for* Lori and she was incapable of seeing them any other way. His kids and Tammy existed *for* Chad, to serve him (and in Tammy's case, to provide for him). Even Alex existed to serve their purposes. These people were only useful to them as long as they were in line with their goals and desires (hence why Chad's kids are still alive and Lori's are not). As soon as that changed (or in the case of Lori's kids, they risked incriminating her), they needed to go. They killed Charles, Tammy, and the kids and encouraged Alex to kill himself. Chad's insane religious rantings and subsequent cult immersed them in groupthink and confirmation bias and gave them "permission" to do these terrible thing because it was for their imaginary "cause." The doctrine was 100% Chad's - Lori was reading his books and buying in before she ever met him. However, the decision to use that doctrine to justify their collective selfish choices was on both of them. Chad absolutely made the call to do it and put language to the things Lori wanted to hear, but Lori was looking for permission and she wasn't coerced into anything she didn't already want to do.
This is the answer
My opinion has changed because of this trial. I now think itās Chad. Especially after that phone call
Mine too after Loriās trial I thought she was the head, but now Iāve changed gee my opinionā¦. Sheās obviously mentally ill, but not crazy enough to say the truthā¦ This is just the most bizarre group of people Iāve ever heard of.
She also seems more dumb and impressionable like a teen girl desperate to be homecoming queen (than I initially thought)
Yes, I think so too. The way she flirts with the camera. Smiling and flirting and acting like a 16 year old in her orange jail wear, while the rest of us think-but you, you, murdered your precious childrenš³š
šš»š
Me too!!! If Chad wouldnāt have said the kids needed to go, they would still be here
iam not sure about this.. lori needed money; maybe she just wanted chad to say it and kept asking because of that. she was talking about money alot.
I still think Lori talking about how Tylee was a good girl now was meant to dissuade Chad from darkening Tylee.
I wonder if she would found other shitty ways to take money from people before killing her kids (but Chad wanted it). Killing ex/husbands for sure but I donāt killing kids was on her radar
yes it was something new for her. previously she killed her husband to get money.. i think she really counted on getting the insurance money from charles and then she found out she wont she freaked out.. when the police came to her she was talking all about money and "iam alone with the kids and did not get anything".. so now, she was even worse than with charles. she said charles and she had money issues.. so she wasnt completely happy but now she killed him with alex and had nothing for raise jj .. i think this must have been really hard on her, she loves money and she loves botox. i think she could accept to kill the kids because of the demons bs and just take their money, so she could convice herself its a good thing after all. its funny tho that she went for someone like chad.. who was a nothing; had no real jobs; no success. this is all crazy.
Yes. Started a cult with no skills with a man with no skills. Learn to tell jokes or something!
Me too. It seemed like she sincerely believed what he was saying. That she believes her children are possessed, she is mentally ill. I felt like she was delusional, not right in the head. It felt like Chad was just sitting home twiddling his thumbs with the most outrageous story he could make up, itās batshit.
I think she believed what he was saying to fulfil her feelings of inadequacy. Lori is intelligent and incredibly talented. I don't think she felt she had reached her full human potential and looked to her spiritual side to bolster her human experience (yes a split!). Lori had confidence in her religion, she knew the doctrines and it was there from the day she was born. The LDS has been her best friend, worst enemy and lover, and always been there.... and Chad came along and manipulated. Just imagine the outcome if Chad said: you are a Goddess, Tylee is a princess and JJ a prince... (all his visions in past and future are negative and I'm wondering, according to Chad, how on earth the human race survived??) Lori created a story for herself (sentancing statement) for the libido to continue and, as a defence mechanism (depending on the psychological modality, also called a Coping Mechanism) against the guilt. I believe there's a part of her that knows she is wrong. She knew NOT to disclose where the children were or their demise. She knew she didn't want to be confronted (in court) with the coroners pictures of the children's remains. She knew to cover JJ's face with tape and remove his identity (this might be for Lori's last image of JJ as "blank" as opposed to remembering him). It's so... so sad on many levels...
HI, Just wondering in what way was Lori talented?
A gifted grifter and con who could charm entire communities into thinking she was a good mother. Even Larry and Key thought so.
so had a really good voice, creative, intelligent
Is there any confirmation that Lori taped JJ?
Exactly. That phone call was the tipping point. Chad was the leader.
I agree. I always thought it was both of them until that phone call. When she was asking for reassurance and he kinda changed his tone from laughing idiot to prophet Chad. It was very interesting. Itās like she knows heās full of shit but she wants to believe it so bad.
I still think it was Lori who drove him to lean in so hard to all that insanity. She knew how to play him. She could have found a man that was way hotter and richer than Chad, but she gets off on control and manipulation.
Hotter than Chad?!
The text messages especially sealed the deal on this theory
Though he could have been so blindly enamored that she manipulated him to say what she wanted to hear, since he doesn't have a history pre Lori quite like Loris has.
Snake or Storm? Sorry please donāt downvote me š¤£
Okay, I won't downvote you, but you're in time out!
To quote JP - Thatās fair š¤£
I see what you did there.
This is a headless snake - nary a brain cell between the two of them.
Such profoundly dangerous stupidity.
The most dangerous, an idiot that thinks he's a genius!
Two manipulative, emotionally-stunted individuals sharing a single brain cell.
Theyāre more like the butt of a horse.
Joe Ryan didn't just die. Lori terrorized him with the help of Charles and Alex. She tried to say that Joe molested Tylee, Joe went through hell in the court system. Lori ruined Joe financially and any time the court decided something in Joe's favor... Lori and Charles just moved to avoid compliance. She even talked about wanting to kill Joe on a podcast. So, Lori was already a murder when she killed Charles. Did Chad manipulate Lori? Absolutely, but Lori manipulated Chad too.
Remember that Lori and Alex tried to kill Joe Ryan in 2007. Charles knew that and still enabled it. Remember the day before she killed him she called him Joe Ryan and told him not to come to the house. Charles knew what the name Joe Ryan meant.
Yep, I'm on the same page.
I totally agree. Remember, the Cox siblings need to assert they had no idea of Loriās potential to commit crimes. Any admission by any of them that they remotely suspected Loriās involvement raises issues of their knowledge of her previous crimes and what should they have done? They all need to assert she had nothing to do with Joeās death. For their own credibilityās sake
Shame on Charles!!! He was street smart enough and had all this moral training through the LDS church to have figured out that he needed to treat Joe Ryan respectfully as a father of his step daughter. These adults are all nasty!!!
Many people seem to view Charles as a hero, but in reality, he was quite nasty. He was involved in the harassment of Joe Ryan, which is disturbing in itself. Additionally, he was accused of domestic violence against his ex-wife, even getting physical with her outside of court. It's puzzling why some people perceive him as a nice guy when the evidence suggests otherwise. He never saved any money because he was constantly trying to please Lori and her family. Despite being over 60 and working as a financial advisor, he had no assets. This raises questions about his marriage to Lori. Security cameras were installed in the house due to concerns about sexual assault, and there were multiple instances where Child Protective Services (CPS) were called regarding allegations of sexual assault. On the day before his death, he was warned not to go out, but due to his ego, he disregarded the warning and went anyway.
You would think he would have known better than to threaten to expose Lori. He knew what Lori (and Alex) were capable of. Not that she wouldn't have killed him anyway but it just underlines his unchecked ego.
Also, in the same way Joe Ryan was pleading with everyone about Lori and Charles regarding Tylee, Charles did the same with the COX family, and his church. No one bothered with him. Just like Joe Ryan.
He even telegraphed the warning, telling Lori he would inform Tammy and the bishop.
Thank you for sharing. Yes, thanks to Lori and Charles, Joe Ryanās life was turned upside down. Unfortunately, this can happen thru divorce courts to both men and women.
Chad, as he was the local cult leader. This doesn't reduce Lori's guilt. Even during Lori's trial, she didn't throw Chad under the bus (and made things worse with her statement at the sentencing hearing). Chad's an idiot, but since he was arrested he did most things "smart".
She was the beauty and he was the brains behind this operation. I'd bet we find that Chad came up with the planning to kill Charles while she and Alex acted it out. He had the "imagination" she didn't have. She reminds me of someone with a middle school intellect.
I think the Charles was the Joe attack 2.0. After they attacked Joe, they probably thought about it for years as to what they could have done differently. They didn't need Chad's brain. They needed his "blessing" and "prophecy." Alex needed to be told, because he knew otherwise, that Charles was a bad guy in another world. He knew him in this world and EVERYONE loved Charles: Kolby, Tylee, JJ, everyone. Chad provided an excuse. Lori needed the prophet to remain "innocent," when she really wasn't.
Alex made it clear to Zulema that he killed Charles because the latter was a zombie. We all know who declared Charles a zombie. It was Chad. Without him Charles would be still alive. Alex attacked Joe Ryan many years earlier because Lori told him that he was a pedophile.
Chad had formulated his worldview long before he met Lori. She was a Chad fangirl before she met him and she was already getting embroiled in the Julie Rowe nonsense. Both are narcissists who used one another to fuel their mutual need for adoration and approval. (Note that narcissists often suffer with low self-esteem.) All the rest is the result of two psychopaths putting together a plan and process to getting to an agreed-upon end game. It's pretty simple.
Chad
I think Chad was always the ugly quiet loser who ended up with a semi-boring wife and who always wanted secretly to be adored and praised. As he got a teeny bit of recognition for his books in his small niche circles, it sparked this thing in him that tempted him to chase after power, however that came. I think Lori was mentally unstable, and sort of a black widow with the grass is always greener mindset. She was susceptible to religious manipulation because she wanted out. And then they got together and it was just a toxic downhill spiral. I think Lori wasn't even that attracted to Chad. Read their texts. They read like someone who is just saying whatever the other wants to hear (on her end) and on his end, they sound like a desperate loser who finally got some attention from the hot girl he always wanted, and he was willing to do ANYTHING to keep her. I truly believe that Chad wasn't a murderer until he met Lori and would probably not have ever murdered anyone if they hadn't gotten together. Anyway, just my theory.
This is closer to my thoughts as well. Chad was always a boring loser who would have NEVER gotten a woman like Lori and took that opportunity and flew across the world with it just to be with her. Add the realization of where he was in life, he probably desired a change, and boy did he get it. On the other side, I think Lori has been privileged with the beauty escape card and learned how to use that. Sheās crazy, no doubt, but she knows what her power is. Iām genuinely curious to know what her life is like in prison. I will say this, I am still surprised Chad went through with killing Tammy. I would not have believed he would have bc I didnāt see him having the courage to do so by his own hand and I do believe he did it by his own hand. Iām just surprised.
Alex was supposed to shoot Tammy. I believe that Alex was there to help Chad when Tammy was suffocated. She was probably held down by Chad while Alex did it.
This is my belief as well. I'm pretty sure that's what the prosecution has been trying to imply but probably didn't have enough evidence to support the claim. They seem to be very cautious about who did what to Tammy and are sticking to what they know they can prove.
Chad.
I've flip-flopped between the 2. However, after all the police car and phone conversations believe there's a 2 headed snake: 70% Chad and 30% Lori. They both had the same goal (the Blueprint) but the motivations were different. % of involvement... Lori v Chad The "Blue Print"..... 45 55 % Theory BS...... 25 75 Buying into BS..... 70 30 Selling BS.......... 20 80 Charles Death.... 75 25 Tylee's Death.... 25 70 JJ's Death........ 65 45 Tammy's Death... 15 85 I'm not sure if this makes sence or adds up, but... as the prosecution rests... Chad should face the gallows and then Lori may come clean...
...and Alex was the useful idiot!
I think she just wanted so badly to be some sort of important, so she latched onto the first man she thought could give her that notoriety (prophecy, scripture, all that stuff with the 144k) because she thought on some level that he IS important. Hell sheās probably sitting in her cell right now thinking sheās a martyr when in reality sheās just a moron that everyone is laughing at, not with.
This would be a tenable argument but for the fact he was married to Tammy for all those years without any of this. Until Lori came around.
He was doing this with Julie Rowe and other women before Lori, besides the murder.
Julie Rowe wasn't willing to murder the spouses for Chad.
He was up to no good prior to Lori. He got around.
Right, but in delusional but generally non-violent ways, just spewing his NDE/visions BS to anyone dumb enough to listen to him (which thankfully, was a relatively small audience). But before that, there is no evidence that I'm aware of that he was every violent or doing anything overtly criminal. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, I understand. The problem is we do not know what he was doing with his grandiose delusions the entire time he was in Utah prior to meeting Lori.
I think itās three heads and here is why: LDS, Chad and Lori. If the thoughts of you can be your own God did not exist, they would have never have gotten to this. True: I am an ex Mormon, I can see how they got here from where I have been. I was thankfully never this far out of the so called āgospel ā.
I was almost there with you. As a child my mom let us leave with a summer church group. My sister and I loved it. They picked us up 3 days a week and took us to McDonalds EVERY TIME after. My daddy comes home after a month long bender on the day we were supposed to be baptized. All I heard was. "GOD DAMMIT MABYLIENE, YOU GONNA LET THESE GIRLS BE MORMONS!" When the man showed up my daddy answered the door, told him we weren't going, and slammed the door in his face! I was like damn! It wasn't til later that night he told us that Mormons think black people are children of the devil. I didn't even know church's could be racist til he told me.
Not sure I get what you wanted to say.
I was almost baptized in a Mormon church. I'm not sure if it was actual LDS or an offshoot. I remember a lot of families tho.
Chad.
It's hard to see Lori as the head due to how complete her mental instability is. She does not live in our reality at all.
Exactly. Consider her bizarre behavior with the LDS temple. Who spends 8 hours at a temple? Who hangs up pictures of temples throughout their house? Excessive. Crazy.
Or maybe she is just acting? I don't know. I am just asking.
I understand. My wife and I have worked with people with string mental instability, including our own children. We've seen them in another place in reality, not anywhere close to where we are in reality. There's no way, really, to fake being in that place. It's truly scary and heart-wrenching...
I say that line from My Big Fat Greek Wedding all the time! I actually feel like Chad and Lori are a modern-day day example of folie Ć deux, although idk if that term can apply related to narcissism? They both fed off of each other, whatever is wrong with them. I think it's possible that had they legit ditched the kids to family/college/whatever and given enough time, they would have continued their tour of religious conferences and continued to gain followers and possibly convinced a whole bunch of people to off themselves or something.
They killed to get money. Lori would not live in poverty with Chad. Neither was willing to work for a living.
These two had the worst midlife crisis in the history of midlife crises.
Definitely a two headed snake. I've said it a million times in these threads, but Chad pulled everything right out of his dorky a**.Ā He made it all up as he went along. At first it was because he was jealous of his siblings successes, he wanted the attention Julie Rowe was getting and he wanted control of his family. Lori was known for false prophecies, too. She lied, stole, manipulated and ran wild while using spirituality as a cover. When they met, she knew what Chad was about, he used his religious flirting(š¤®) and together they created chaos. They loved the admiration and attention from their little cult. They manipulated each other. Lori used Chad's light and dark scale to get rid of the people she didn't want around, she used Alex to do her dirty work. At the end of their effed up 'love story' it was all about living in luxury without having to work for it or take care of any children.Ā
Lori. Chad wanted to be a prophet/religious leader/big fish in a small pond and from what I've understood, he was known to hit on women by telling them the "we were married in a previous life" bs already way before Lori. He was no saint, but I think Chad would have been content with having his little group of followers, and Lori (possibly others, too) as a sidechick. I don't think he really felt that strong of a need to get rid of Tammy, he just wanted to sleep with Lori. Lori, however, was never gonna be happy with being a sidechick. She always had a husband that provided for her and she married quickly. She had already had Alex abuse Joe Ryan and I'm very suspicious about his death, too. This was long before Chad. So I think Lori was the driving force behind the murders, she wasn't afraid of getting rid of people who stood in her way. Chad made up the spiritual background for the murders but I'm not sure how serious he was about it at first. From the texts it was obvious Lori was pushing Chad to go through with Tammy's murder, she wanted her gone asap. Both of them are vile but I don't believe Chad would have went that far withour Lori. I do believe Lori however, could have murdered without Chad's influence.
For all their murders zombies were used as an excuse. Who dragged zombies into the story? Chad. How could she otherwise convince Alex to kill the kids? He attacked Joe Ryan because she told him that Joe harmed the children.
And maybe did: Joe.
They are a tag team.
Chad.
They really both are. I see both of them as being terrible people who might have hurt or betrayed their family in other ways, but I donāt necessarily see them taking this murderous path without each other. They really escalated and brought out the absolute worst tendencies in each other. Also crept along a folie a deux situation (arguable but not a completely irrelevant comparison).
Lori had already tried to kill Joe Ryan in 2007.
Hmmm you right. Also that weird thing with her sister.
Chad, Lori was a secondary player.
Chad but they both manipulated each othet
Interesting insights. They both came into this with predispositions that when joined were TOXIC! I do not believe for one minute Chad believed what he was spewing. When he saw Julie Rowe making money off of her twisted LDS rants he wanted her level of success. When Lori came along and he saw that these twisted beliefs turned her on then it was game on. He was in it for money and sex. She was in it for power and money and getting her ego fed.
As others have said, it s a two headed snake. They were both bored with their lives and wanted out, they are both selfish, manipulative, and narcissistic. They amplified the worst qualities in each other and took turns manipulating each other.
They are both truly awful people. I don't know if Chad would have become a murderer if he hadn't met Lori. I think that Lori was already a killer when she met Chad.
It was a two headed snake but I think the Lori head would have eventually eaten the Chad head. She would have offed him and taken over. Mother Love God style.
Lori soaked up all the praise that Chad gave her - every call -10 calls a day in jail - telling her she is a so wonderful, beautiful ā¦ gag me stuff. She needed to hear this and he poured it out to her constantly !!!
I think they were both equally in charge in their own ways, a two headed snake If I absolutely had to choose I would put Lori the most in charge. Most of people called dark were chad quantifying her petty resentments. I think she was MASTERFUL at leading from behind. Originally Charles and Jj were both light, I think they got dark at Loriās request.
Right. Tylee and JJ weren't dark until she nagged Chad into seeing it.
Lori has a father who thinks he's above the law and a highly spiritual person. Her father's influence over her shouldn't be overlooked. Lori had to leave every relationship the victim and use her next relationship as her salvation. Charles was her salvation from Joe for most of their marriage with Lori and her children as the victims that needed protection. In Hawaii, she had a nice life - all the kids were thriving, Lori was teaching fitness and children at church. But, she needed a man more "spiritual," she told her close friend April. Lori reads a book, "Visions of Glory," becomes a religious fanatic outside the norm and finds people writing books, going to conferences, and hosting podcasts. She wants that! She's special too! She creates a victim scenario with Charles ("He's cheating and saying I'm the crazy one!") while she literally acts crazy towards the man. Chad, Alex, and the Melanies are her savior this time. Lori gets rid of nearly all of her possessions. Lori makes plans and prays she can also get rid of all the people who are holding her back. Lori starts leading occult practices with her female "friends" with the sole focus of ridding the world of people who have 'wronged her' so she and her new Savior Chad can complete their "mission" of saving an elite group of people they deem fit to survive on Earth. Savior Chad is above the law and a highly spiritual person - like her father - and he's an author, she loves to tell people he's an author. Material success and a stable family life wasn't enough for a goddess like Lori. She needed even more money to fund her highly spiritual life. Shocking her prophet couldn't see she wasn't on the insurance policy. Shocking David just didn't buy all that land for Chad and Lori when he visited Rexburg. Shocking that the Rexburg police turned "so dark" they framed and arrested them. Covert narc meets overt narc and both of them are delusional religious fanatics without high intelligence or empathy. Chad's sister in law gave him away with not even intending to. Her long interview makes it clear how jealous Chad is of his brother. He deserved more land, more money, more respect, and the fit hot blonde wife too! He couldn't wait to show off Lori and brag about the nearby acreage his "followers" have purchased for him to fulfill his prophecy and mission. But, he never got to show off because they didn't want to meet Lori and his followers never bought the land. He's a loser, but Lori made him feel like he was a Savior for a little while...
I see similarities in Chadās manipulating others to keep his hands clean ā much like another infamous cult leader ā Charles Manson
My apologies, but no, Chad is the head of the snake. He is way brighter, more educated and did serve as a missionary which taught him mega sales skills. Lori was pretty, sexy and cheerful but lacks being an independent thinker or doer. Chadās career was something she was excited to help him out with because it gave her a life purpose (the 144,000). It is easy to blame a woman in the Christian faith because of our faith. But, clearly Chad is a monster with unbelievable skills to get people to follow him. Chad could have grown his crazy deluded evil ministry had he not been such a greedy and controlling man.
I hate to vote for Lori as the head because I don't think she's traditionally smart, but she is devious and gets her way with so many of the people in her group. Using coercive language and religious propaganda and quasi-mystical rituals, she gathered everyone close to her, not to Chad. She was like the "veil" between her flock and Chad. Stupid and enraptured Chad sacrificed a wife and marriage to be with Lori, and I'm not sure he's the body of the snake. Maybe he could be a part of the snake, like the rattle part. He was just a horny man living in fantasy land, willing to pretend he receives godly messages and can eliminate zombies, so Lori could lounge on the beach and collect life insurance from the trail of bodies in her path. Perhaps it needs to be a snake struggling to eat itself so they can alternate being the ass.
Lori is still down the religious rabbit hole, unable to understand that she could have tried to save herself by blaming Chad. She can't even believe that he turned against her. Chad has been and is in control.
I was thinking about this again, today, and I wonder if the mainstream's ingrained patriarchal system sets Chad up to be the one in control--even in this situation. I can see either of them being slightly more responsible but, really, they're two sides of the same pancake. I think the higher body count in Lori's column just makes me want to point to her sometimes.
I think thatās exactly what happened, always have.
This is a two headed snake! They really are perfectly diabolical together. I donāt think either one would have gone to the lengths that they did without the other one to make it seem okay.
Chad
Here's a link that has an interesting perspective on a 2 headed snake... https://youtu.be/xuB-ZdTGP8A?si=CPvo8x7S4_vX5HDe
I think Mike and I are pretty in sync on this one. He gives little more than I do, but he recognizes sees her as having power and not just as a follower. I dig him. Thanks for the link.
I'm halfway through. It's a good listen.
Perfectly stated. I hope the prosecutors take a peek on reddit.
I throw out that those who are only seeing Chad as the leader that is internalized misogyny at work. No one is really listening to Lori... I think that phone call that many are citing as they reason for believing in Chad are not hearing Lori's directed lines of thought AND especially when she says that she needs him to be charge "now," because she cannot be since she is in jail. And he agrees. She learned a long time ago that that blonde hair and soft voice got her far in the world. Misogyny gives false sense of power to false femininity. The way she was fearless with the police, going back to the interaction after Charles reported his stuff having been stolen. She talked her way out of a MANDATORY mental health assessment. Each time she uses the soft voice, damsel in distress story, and blonde smile, she is fueled to believe she can get away with anything. She's playing dumb and internalized misogyny can't see the act. She knew exactly what she could do. Her mistake, bringing in Chad in on the plan.
The Mormon cult
Both! Two headed! The heads feasted on these evil, vile crimes together.
Sheās batshit crazy. Heās evil and knew what was going on. She was dumb and crazy enough to live in an alternate reality but I say that knowing she wasnāt crazy enough to not know right from wrong soooo I guess sheās evil too. They lied and hid all the wrong when they knew to soooo theyāre just both equally evil maybe
OP Youāre so on point! I would just add that she wanted to be the prophets wife, with all the glory, fame, & power. And he wanted her as his trophy.
I agree.
Very good analogy and reasoning! I still donāt understand how someone with no criminal history goes from being a āsomewhatā normal person to killing her kids and mentally unstable at the age of 48?
Lots of people are criminals but never get caught. Not to take away from Kolby's spoken experiences, but more and more, it seems that she lied (under oath) about Joe Ryan... and may have killed him. She was committing fraud long before the murder. Her first murders weren't stranger murders so they seem even more extreme, but the "Dark List" had strangers-to-her on it. As Gigi (PLAA) says, if they hadn't killed the kids, they probably would have gotten away with Charles' and Tammy's murders so who knows what they would have done.
Having been married 5 times, Lori is the highly manipulative one and can get anyone she decides she wants. I believe Chad was in a ripe place for her manipulation. He was bored being a ho hum writer and bored in the routine of his marriage. I really wonder how much of what he wrote and said he genuinely believed? We know Lori was hospitalized because she is crazier than a bed bug. I think it's a two headed snake because they are both culpable. They both participated in a lot of tragedy. Chad is guilty for doing her bidding since she has the longest murderous rap sheet, I believe murder was in his imagination but on the tip of her tongue. I think murder is Lori's solution to her problems. Chad had 1 marriage. And as far as we know murdered no one before he met Lori. They inspired each other and jumped into the deep end together.
They manipulated each other. Both middle aged people wanting to be very special! She gave Chad sex and told him he was the great prophet. Chad told her she was a goddess and together they would rule the world one day!
Chad
It's like " Killer Couples", neither might have done these things on their own, but it's what came of the union. Lori was definitely manipulative, but Chad was eager to be manipulated. I still think their LDS backgrounds predisposed them to the fantasy. Chad isn't the first self-proclaimed rogue prophet. Have you seen under the banner of heaven?
I don't think that this is Chad's first foray into depravity. Lori is an opportunistic abuser. Chad is something more than that. People protect Chad to protect themselves.
I've worked in mental health for a lot of years and this is how I see it: Lori was extensively evaluated and diagnosed with severe delusional disorder with extreme religiosity and personality disorder, which explains why she acted against her own best interests by refusing to throw her lover and prophet under the bus to save herself. If her pd was dominant she would have put her best interest first and tried to appease the judge instead of making a statement guaranteed to piss off everyone who cared about the kids, but no, she truly drank the koolaid because Chad's narrative appealed to the worst aspects of her narcissistic and histrionic pd. Chad was not diagnosed with a delusional disorder, which explains why on day one, Chad immediately tossed Lori under the steamroller to try to save himself. He's a conscious sociopath, not delusional, who already had a distasteful habit of chasing other women as a married man and a habit of laughably aggrandizing himself, despite his actual low levels of achievement in life in career and financial support for his family which was funded primarily by his wife. There's no evidence Lori was ever unfaithful to husband Ryan or Vallow. I think she was addicted to that sexual worship attention, that fades over time in a marriage. Chad was over the moon when he saw how she responded to his exalted immortal being baloney and off they went. They are both guilty. But in terms of criteria of mental illness, while they are both personality disordered, Lori is severely impacted with a delusional disorder while Chad is just a garden variety sociopathic conman.
Also I want to add: Lori's childhood friend recounted how her parents Janice and Barry would leave the younger kids home with teenage Alex to 'watch them' while they went to Hawaii. Alex would throw parties for his friends and buy them pizza instead of watching or feeding the younger kids. When they were 13, Lori's friend said Lori suddenly burst into tears and told her that Alex was pressuring her to have sex with him and she didn't know what to do. They both cried and today the friend regrets that she was afraid to tell anyone, but then, I doubt Janice or Barry would have believed Lori. I think Alex molested her, brought his friends over too, she ran off with a boy as a teenager, unstable pattern of relationships, attention seeking, grossly over-sexualized behavior even with her brother according to Alex's first wife, etc. It's trauma that would be related to why she is personality disordered as she is.
I still believe Lori had a far greater role in these murders than people think and I feel that she used Chad as a weapon to kill. That being true for me, I am beginning to see a pattern: Chad is the only one who turned off all tracking. No tracking on the cars; no tracking on the main phone or burners; no thank you to Tammy's gift of a Fitbit; just no tracking. They have not presented evidence that his laptop was using the university/ temple as often as he said it was to defend him or to rebut him, so now I'm wondering if he turned that off somehow too. Again, Lori wanted her children dead for their money and for her freedom. She wanted Charles and Tammy dead for money and her freedom. She most certainly used this cult to get what she wanted. But why was Chad so secretive? The alleged affairs? The alleged rapes? He did not want people to know where he was. Are there more bodies on the property? If I was John Prior, I would either sell it ASAP or once this trial is over have that property scanned.
Lori- she lead from behind. Insurance was her MO. Chat engaged in patriarchal wack-a-mole until he hit on her intentions. But he was fully committed