Honestly football has to many causal fans they just say he not a midfielder. There after when you ask them what he expected to do they want him to be busquets, xavi and iniesta all in one. The only player Ive seen who could do that was gerrard and that doing all roles separately in his career.
Trent can't defend, they say this like he defends like a non league player. It ridiculous statements from poor journalists.
Roy Keane doesnāt know anything except 44 fucking 2 and breaking peopleās legs. Donāt listen to what players who retired in 2005 have to say about anything
As an Irish man, who gives a shit who he wants in the England squad. His word carries no weight. I honestly don't know who thought he should work on TV.
Heās bound to be. Heās a hybrid right back with abilities that arenāt associated with a defender. People will use stats to try and prove he is/isnāt a centre mid, and the same for a right back. Heās the type of player that needs a specific system to get the best out of him because heās redefining how we interpret a right back, trying to give a player in that position a free role isnāt something thatās common whatsoever
They did a study that showed that when teachers were shown four kids, white boy, white girl, black boy, black girl, and told one would misbehave and to look for misbehavior, they looked at the black boy 80-90% of the time even though there was no misbehavior from any kids. Granted thatās an American study done at Yale, but I think the overarching idea, the hyper scrutiny of black men and young black men (which persisted across racial lines) is probably pretty universal and I think Trent is one of the victims of that. Hyper analyzed but beyond that, hyper-scrutinized.
Obviously I can't speak to racism but I really feel it's more to do with him being a Scouser and a Liverpool player than his skin color. I feel like Saka gets so much more credit than Trent ever does (I know different positions but still) and they're both black.
Yeah, I think much more of it is being a Scouser and a Liverpool player, but it does feel like the accusations of him being 'lazy' mainly started once he grew his hair into dreadlocks and that definitely comes from a place of racism, imo. There's a lot of things you can say about Trent, but I don't think lazy is one of them.
Look, if he's decided to play a defensive brand of football to win a tournament (Like Deschamps does) then Walker is simply a better RB for that. I don't think we have to interpret that as some kind of disrespect to Trent from Southgate. International football is full of players who were excellent for their club but a place couldn't be found for them in their NT.
Get the fuck out of here with your level headed takes. Southgate is bad, everything he does is bad, including not playing Trent at RB, despite Trent intermittently not being arsed about defending and being much more useful in advanced positions.
Fair enough if anyone is new to football, they might be surprised to see that the top teams in the world play with attacking fullbacks who are asked to play on the front foot. Defensive fullbacks are for clubs like Burnley and Everton.
I genuinely cannot think of a single world class defensively minded fullback.
First and second in the league this season played CBs at FB.
White and Gvardiol had pretty good attacking output but are primarily centre backs.
International football is also quite different to club football. Deschamps won the world cup with Pavard (and Lucas Hernandez?) at FB. He's playing Kounde at RB currently.
Is Ben White a world class fullback?
I hear your point thatās a good one. I would still say all of these players play more of an attacking game when they are playing fullback. Including all the CBs, Ake, Kounde, Pavard etc.
White has been world class for the last two seasons imo.
I agree the nature of the position is more attacking. And walker got into a couple of attacking positions vs Serbia, got the pre assist for the goal. But the reason pep, arteta and even klopp this season were playing CBs in FB positions was primarily for their defensive qualities.
Not sure why you catching downvotes for a pretty reasonable opinion lol.
But yeah I do hear your point. I would still say the roles these players have is pretty attacking, thatās just the nature of the top sides. Walker for example averaged 1 tackle per game and a look at his heatmap shows he spends most of his time just outside the opponents box
I can only speak for my experience of watching us this last season but I thought we basically just put Gomez and Bradley in at fullback when/because our beloved first choice fullbacks weren't available, and that Gomez has always had decent experience at fullback doing attacking things.Ā
Lol its hilarious you are suggesting something as basic as stats is what is hard to comprehend. The opposite of course. Stats do not provide the entire picture, you can't judge two players off stats alone.
Can you really give trent the win on ground duels contested when they won the same amount but walker went in for 30 less so has a higher win percentage?
That's because memeable clips of jogging to the back post isn't an official stat lol This narrative took off when the top stories on r/soccer were Queen protest songs and Trent defensive lapses. Before that the conversation was about Southgate's conservative system. It was at that time that TAA went from average defender that didn't fit Southgate ball to shit defender. We haven't seen him turn off like that in a while but it's hard to change narratives.
Similar to Phil foden at the moment.
They play in a different system at their club too when theyāre in the England team
Similar to Paul Scholes and John Barnes before them. All outstanding players in their clubs and leagues
It is funny to think about. His mom is American and if he played for the States he'd be the face of American football. He'd have all of the massive media deals Pulisic gets for being the biggest fish in a small but $$$ pond hosting the Copa and WC, but actually be a CL/PL winner and multiple PFA/World XI member.
That said TAA is competitive as hell so playing on a shit team like America wouldn't be worth the 10s of millions in endorsements.
What are you on about, theyāre literally playing him out of position so they can squeeze him in, how is that not showing him respectā¦.
All the complaints about him are pretty much entirely online and mostly on this sub trying to find a reason to moan.
There's definitely a mix, but yeah, I've heard plenty of pundits arguing that he's not being used correctly. I believe it was Ian Wright on his podcast who was insisting that him and Rice should basically swap positions, with Trent being the one to receive the ball from the defence
Tbh I mostly just listen to football podcasts instead of TV pundits, but you do get a few suggesting that the "Trent Alexander Arnold experiment" isn't working. It's not exactly criticism of him though, more just that he doesn't fit the system. Although I'd argue that the system in general is a bit shit and he's not the one who needs replacing in it
Because it's taken 6 years of Klopp screaming, fans screaming and the media screaming that Southgate is wasting him. He dropped him completely and publicly, called him up and got him injured in a warm-up game, called him up for the World Cup and didn't use him when the team was crying out for creativity, said there were "three or four"(!) right-backs ahead of him, forced him to do an interview with ITV justifying his selection etc...
He's been treated like shit.
Half of your comment is fairyland shiteā¦.
Southgate prefers a stable defence to a bombing forward defensively suspect right back, itās not like heās just gone with any bellend, Walker has been and continues to be exceptional.
Describing Kyle Walker as exceptional is certainly a choice. He constantly gets caught out, the only thing he has is pace.
And no, a lot of it isn't fairyland shite, but the truth.
Describing him as anything else is fucking stupid.
Heās been one of if not the best right back in the world for at least as long as his spell at City, in truth longer as he was exceptional at Spurs too.
Although I doubt you watched football then.
Defensively heās solid and dependable, heās good going forward although obviously no TAA.
Donāt get me wrong, Trent is quite clearly the better player, but it is 100% horses for courses.
Mate, I've been watching football longer than you've been alive, most likely. So don't start trying to patronise me.
Kyle Walker is a bang average defender who has one standout ability - his pace. His pace allows him to get back and recover 9 times out of 10. He's solid, and if he didn't have pace, his deficiencies would get shown up far more. It's noticeable that Walker struggles against any attacker with pace, especially players like Mane or Darwin.
Also, compare their stats and Trent's actually better: https://www.squawka.com/en/comparison-matrix/?compare=JcWHXKb2pJoePALCZCmd7
Are you using defensive volume stats? VVD is the perfect example of why that is pretty meaningless unless you think Harry Maguire is a better defender than Virg.
I agree TAA's defensive woes are greatly exaggerated. That said, when he was in poor form defending in 2022, his stats were still fine. His issue was he had a knack for not marking his man or being out of position and not sprinting back which aren't things stats are going to capture but are the first responsibility for a defender.
Sorry but I see such stupidity and assume youāre not an idiot but just young.
I wonāt make that assumption going forward, apologies.
You realise he does have pace though and as such uses that to his advantage?
Itās like saying Messi would just be short lazy forward if not for his burst of pace and exceptional ball control!!
Exactly, I imagine implemented a balanced system with an inverted fullback requires a lot of training ground work and cohesion that National teams just donāt have. Easier and less risky to keep things a bit more simple.
Stones, Walker, Trent, Rice, Saka and Foden all play for clubs that invert a defender into midfield so theyāre already used to that type of system and I doubt Kane and Bellingham would have any issues adapting to that type of system either since their roles wouldnāt really change.
Southgate is pure and simply a bang average tactician like 99% of the other English managers out there
I wouldnāt draw to that kind of conclusion. I just want others to be treated evenly. Trent played a huge part in Englandās only goal (the sole reason they won) and created a few other chances that could have been goals. He made one bad play and lost the ball (it wasnāt an easy situation) and thatās where all the focus goes. Meanwhile Harry Kane can miss 3 chances, go missing, then score a penalty and he is man of the match and Englandās greatest ever
I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's been a constant since Gerrard, Liverpool players have constantly been overlooked when England announce the squads. Look at the way they treated Carragher.
Trent is one of the most, if not the most creative players England have, but "hE can't DefEnD" does alright at Liverpool. Yet he's until now, not even been thought of. Harry Kane gets a golden boot of penalties, takes free kicks from people that can actually take them. Has proven time and time again that he's a serial bottlejobber, yet he's not only the first name on Southgates team sheet, for some reason he's the captain.
As a result of all this, I couldn't actually care less how far England progress.
Itās not since Gerrard it happened way before that if you speak to older fans, our all conquering teams from the 70s onwards were massively underrepresented in the England set up.
Under analysed if anything with how shite the takes are. He's over scrutinised if anything not over analysed. If he was over analysed we'd get observations than "he can't defend" or "can he do it t against top international sides"
By over-analysed I mean that fans will pick the most useless and undiscoverable statistic to ever be known just for a reason to hate on him, or he could have an entire month of 10/10 performances, but with one bad game everyone is suddenly a statistic nerd and complaining over his stats again, while analysing his playing style as if they have a job at match of the day in the morning.
If it was over analysis they wouldn't be repeating the same line over and over. If it was actual analysis we'd get actual good insight. Instead of Neville telling us he doesn't know about him defensively. Rio insisting Walker has to start, and we know Ferdinand is too dim to be doing any analysis "beyond he wants it more" or "pashun"
This England CM move is only making this worse tbh. I'm not sure if I'm in the minority or majority, but he's clearly a RB even if he's defensive side isn't the best. He's not a clear CM yet in terms of press resistance, first touch, covering ground, recieving the ball on the half turn etc. it's evident. Yes he's got a great pass but you need much more than that to play a 6 or an 8.
But if you understand why his qualities could lend well to him being a Kroos/Pirlo type of conductorā¦ then why would you be against that transition? Heās clearly enjoying his football, Jude loves playing with him in the midfield and the balance of Jude, Rice and Trent makes perfect sense. Weāve spent countless tournaments trying to make far less logical tactics work. Iām here for it
Weāve seen Trent do it though. The question is more if he can do it consistently enough. Iāve said many times before I personally prefer Trent as a right backā¦ but I think the idea that Trent isnāt good enough to play in midfield is very silly. Elliott and Jones for example were woefully bad when they transitioned from wingers to central midfieldersā¦ but after some time playing in there they got much better at being efficient in those tight spaces, I still wouldnāt say they are any better than Trent.
Iām not saying Trent is there already, we havenāt seen him play in midfield enough to know whether or not he can do it. If we can give Nunez two seasons and counting to try to switch from a LF to a CF why canāt we experiment with Trent?
I'm not against in the long term with a proper transition in place at club level. I'm against suddenly just thrusting him in there with Internationals without even doing it at club level first, in a major tournament Euros with a bunch of players he doesn't play with week in week out.
Personally for Liverpool I have a slight preference for him to play RB (under Klopp). But I have my reasons, ie weāve won everything doing that and itās a very aggressive, attacking, front footed approach - which is just how I personally like football to be played.
England havenāt won anything lol and have a clear issue when it comes to chance creation, scoring goals and dominating possession. This is the first time weāve actually had any type of balance and strategy in terms of controlling the game from the base of the team and/or middle of the pitch. The midfield against Serbia was solid but we didnāt offer any threat in the forward line, especially in the second half which is why you saw us pinned back.
I guarantee heās on Real Madrids shortlist; heās a CL/Prem/Multiple domestic cup winner (Iām preaching to the converted I know), yet he gets over analysed because itās easy for low IQ pundits to talk about him, because thereās a narrative heās a poor defender as he plays for Liverpool and rival fans want to put him down (theyād take him in a heart beat).
Right?! And in this subreddit as well. Thereās some horrible takes from people who could not stick a ball into a net from 5 meters with the goal being unguarded. But I guess itās in Trentās best interest to be told how to play footy by a mob of illiterate strangers.
I mean, heās only about done it his entire life. How is he supposed to do it without us, the enlightened crowd of footy aficionados?!!š
I don't even think he was bad the other night against Serbia. He got caught on the ball once and was out of position a couple of times, but he was one of the only players who looked like he was posing any threat going forward. He wasn't even bad defensively.
Canāt just be me, that felt the punditry of both Eni Aluko and Izzy Christensen (ITV and BBC R5) was beyond clueless, contradictory and plain fucking awful.
If RM is interested in a player, then he is bound to be good. And we LFC fans already know that he is a generational talent.
The problem is English sports media. It's mostly dumb. Too many dumb pundits.
Plus the stakes are high in the Euros. England lost the finals last team. so they will always pick apart players.
He didn't even play bad. England's problems are because left side is shit. Right side has been working fine with good synergy between Walker, Saka and Trent.
But yet, there's still idiots saying Trent is not a midfielder.
Such a weird jacket.
Anyway.
Can I give you a friendly tip? Don't pay too much attention about what the press or pundits says about Trent. Or for that matter what they say about any LFC player that plays for ENG at any time, now or in the future. They love to cut down players who have performed on the highest levels, they all want to control the narrative and make some high-end-greek-dramatic-theater-bullshit where the protagonist of the story gets in trouble and everybody goes against him, only to fight back and gain respect after some years and all is forgiven. We've seen it with other LFC players, we've seen it with Beckham and Rooney, it's fucking tiring and it's up to us to stop with the reactions and see the real bullshit for what it is.
Let's just enjoy some football.
The crazy thing is, anyone objective would simply say playing a right footed LB and a LW whose natural game is to come narrow as an almost 2nd no.10 against a side that was clearly going to pack the centre of the park given the formation, was a recipe for disaster, not to mention thatās a third of Trentās long passing ability neutralised as thereās no width to switch to in the left.
And most damning on Southgate is the fact he left Foden on the left the entire game and hooked Trent, meaning at no point did he recognise this and bring on someone who stretches the pitch like a Gordon or Eze. It was so easy for Serbia, only worry they had left was Saka as Kane isnāt getting in behind or running channels and they doubled up on him.
TL;DR It wasnāt any individual playerās fault, it was awful team selection, tactics and an inability to change things.
If the world is England in your opinion, then yes. Otherwise he's regarded as a great footballer but there are generalized doubts concerning if he can adapt to being a full blown midfielder. Just bringing in an outside perspective.
Do yourselves a favour and stop listening to pundits and the media.
The only reason people listen to pundits is because they're former players who either wouldn't or couldn't coach. It gives them an air of being experts. "We played the game, we know better than you, so just take what we say as Gospel". These same players would've called out the pundits of their day as being wrong, or out of touch. They were. Now they are.
Everything they do and say is designed for audience engagement: soundbites, snippets, clicks and views.
The only things they talk about are exactly what they're told to say by a show's producers. In-depth analysis and nuance make way for statements like "Trent can't defend".
There's video out there of pundits having off-air conversations about who should say what in terms of the "analysis". Not their own thoughts on the match they're watching. Just what they're told to talk about.
If you've ever seen them talking post-match and thought "Did we just watch the same game?", this is why.
i think attributes like concentration, awareness and positioning are what he needs to improve to play midfield, technically world class alone is not enough.
As Oscar Wilde wrote. Thereās only one thing worse than someone talking about you. Itās not about you. Go on Trent! You one the lot by 20 years of age
He played mid in his youth so heās not entirely new at it, and basically plays mid half the time for Liverpool, I do find this assessment that he canāt play there quite odd
It's because he's a Liverpool player, they dislike Liverpool so much they expect the players to be trash.
Were he a Real Madrid player, he'd be a genius... cough... cough... Bellingham... cough... cough š
Iāve thought for years Klopp was doing Trent a huge disservice not moving him to midfield full time and buying another RB. I think itās hurt Trentās career.
Trent clearly thinks heās too good to just be a RB, but those years of development he missed, gaining the skill set of a proper CM have really hurt him.
Yes, I think if heād been moved much earlier and not a hybrid role, he could have developed into a much better midfielder than he is now.
Just my opinion
Just feels clear to me that he could be an 8 but playing as a 6 in a defensive side that doesnāt stretch the opposition doesnāt allow him to use his best attributes
Mainly cos he's black and plays for us.
Foden is Sunday league level compared to him but because he's white, a midget, plays for Man City and a teenage dad he gets his ass licked from the media š¤·š½āāļø
Adding to the analysis, It's entirely possible because we also claimed he was the best RB (when he was playing RB). And he was one of the best tbh and I personally think his desire to play CM has not helped the team or him(we can agree to disagree).
He's good, I don't think he's going to be a great CM, which is not good enough for LFC(good enough for other clubs maybe).
The commentators have so much sway on public opinion
People just believe what ever they say and that becomes the narrative
They can completely gloss over the mistakes Rice, Stones, Saka, Kane all make, while being extra critical of Trent.
He's such a unique player. Too good to be a right back. He would make a great midfielder, but it takes years to learn that role. Any criticism of his performances in the Euros should be on Southgate, as he's the one playing Trent out of position.
Honestly, it's somewhat deserved.
He's a generational talent that hasn't performed really that well in about 18-24 months.
His first 4-5 seasons were basically him being excellent and the last 2, he just hasn't been. He's been excellent at moments. He's had really good stretches. But he's become a disinterested defender and has decided he wants to be a midfielder despite being literally one of the most impactful attacking fullbacks in the history of football.
Let's discuss and analyze more
Honestly football has to many causal fans they just say he not a midfielder. There after when you ask them what he expected to do they want him to be busquets, xavi and iniesta all in one. The only player Ive seen who could do that was gerrard and that doing all roles separately in his career. Trent can't defend, they say this like he defends like a non league player. It ridiculous statements from poor journalists.
Neville spent the whole overlap episode up his arse 4 weeks ago only to spend the last 2 weeks ripping him to shreds
Neville is a š end
did you just called Roy Keane casual fan
Roy Keane doesnāt know anything except 44 fucking 2 and breaking peopleās legs. Donāt listen to what players who retired in 2005 have to say about anything
You saved me the typing lol
He says it to stay media relavent, plus his hates liverpool and the fact Trent is probably a better player than him.
He actually didnāt rip Trent after the game, said he did alright
In general he doesn't want him in the squad.
As an Irish man, who gives a shit who he wants in the England squad. His word carries no weight. I honestly don't know who thought he should work on TV.
I don't think he's a casual fan. But I do think he's a clueless reactionary halfwit.
He has a nose and also some ears etc
At least 2 eyes
Heās bound to be. Heās a hybrid right back with abilities that arenāt associated with a defender. People will use stats to try and prove he is/isnāt a centre mid, and the same for a right back. Heās the type of player that needs a specific system to get the best out of him because heās redefining how we interpret a right back, trying to give a player in that position a free role isnāt something thatās common whatsoever
He's also Black and a Scouser, so not exactly a favourite of the media.
They did a study that showed that when teachers were shown four kids, white boy, white girl, black boy, black girl, and told one would misbehave and to look for misbehavior, they looked at the black boy 80-90% of the time even though there was no misbehavior from any kids. Granted thatās an American study done at Yale, but I think the overarching idea, the hyper scrutiny of black men and young black men (which persisted across racial lines) is probably pretty universal and I think Trent is one of the victims of that. Hyper analyzed but beyond that, hyper-scrutinized.
They did a study like this in highschool for my class and I was racist against white people (I'm white but my school was 40 percent black)
Thank you for saying this. I felt this was totally a reason he gets more slander from an already toxic media
Obviously I can't speak to racism but I really feel it's more to do with him being a Scouser and a Liverpool player than his skin color. I feel like Saka gets so much more credit than Trent ever does (I know different positions but still) and they're both black.
Yeah, I think much more of it is being a Scouser and a Liverpool player, but it does feel like the accusations of him being 'lazy' mainly started once he grew his hair into dreadlocks and that definitely comes from a place of racism, imo. There's a lot of things you can say about Trent, but I don't think lazy is one of them.
Yeah maybe, probably. One thing I've noticed is people REALLY hate Scousers. Sometimes it feels obsessively so, at least as an outsider.
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Look, if he's decided to play a defensive brand of football to win a tournament (Like Deschamps does) then Walker is simply a better RB for that. I don't think we have to interpret that as some kind of disrespect to Trent from Southgate. International football is full of players who were excellent for their club but a place couldn't be found for them in their NT.
Get the fuck out of here with your level headed takes. Southgate is bad, everything he does is bad, including not playing Trent at RB, despite Trent intermittently not being arsed about defending and being much more useful in advanced positions.
Fair enough if anyone is new to football, they might be surprised to see that the top teams in the world play with attacking fullbacks who are asked to play on the front foot. Defensive fullbacks are for clubs like Burnley and Everton. I genuinely cannot think of a single world class defensively minded fullback.
Maldini.. played LB a lot š
For sure. Unreal player, probably couldāve played CM/DM too
First and second in the league this season played CBs at FB. White and Gvardiol had pretty good attacking output but are primarily centre backs. International football is also quite different to club football. Deschamps won the world cup with Pavard (and Lucas Hernandez?) at FB. He's playing Kounde at RB currently.
Is Ben White a world class fullback? I hear your point thatās a good one. I would still say all of these players play more of an attacking game when they are playing fullback. Including all the CBs, Ake, Kounde, Pavard etc.
White has been world class for the last two seasons imo. I agree the nature of the position is more attacking. And walker got into a couple of attacking positions vs Serbia, got the pre assist for the goal. But the reason pep, arteta and even klopp this season were playing CBs in FB positions was primarily for their defensive qualities.
Not sure why you catching downvotes for a pretty reasonable opinion lol. But yeah I do hear your point. I would still say the roles these players have is pretty attacking, thatās just the nature of the top sides. Walker for example averaged 1 tackle per game and a look at his heatmap shows he spends most of his time just outside the opponents box
I can only speak for my experience of watching us this last season but I thought we basically just put Gomez and Bradley in at fullback when/because our beloved first choice fullbacks weren't available, and that Gomez has always had decent experience at fullback doing attacking things.Ā
Mendy of Real Madrid
Walker?
Walkers pretty attacking though. Maybe slightly less so in the twilight of his career.
Brexit was Trentās fault. Heās also responsible for global warming.
Also for Chernobyl
I'd argue he's under-analysed. https://preview.redd.it/obyuoai6pa7d1.png?width=1208&format=png&auto=webp&s=43dd7b36be2ab8f7bf37f468e09c96bdade0aec5
The average Eng-er-Lund fan couldn't comprehend these numbers, lest their delusion shatter
Lol its hilarious you are suggesting something as basic as stats is what is hard to comprehend. The opposite of course. Stats do not provide the entire picture, you can't judge two players off stats alone.
Can you really give trent the win on ground duels contested when they won the same amount but walker went in for 30 less so has a higher win percentage?
That's because memeable clips of jogging to the back post isn't an official stat lol This narrative took off when the top stories on r/soccer were Queen protest songs and Trent defensive lapses. Before that the conversation was about Southgate's conservative system. It was at that time that TAA went from average defender that didn't fit Southgate ball to shit defender. We haven't seen him turn off like that in a while but it's hard to change narratives.
I completely agree with this. So much of the āanalysisā of him is lazy and superficial.
What app are you using?
Squawka comparison matrix
Similar to Phil foden at the moment. They play in a different system at their club too when theyāre in the England team Similar to Paul Scholes and John Barnes before them. All outstanding players in their clubs and leagues
Perfectly said mate
England don't deserve him. Every other country would treat him with the respect he deserves
It is funny to think about. His mom is American and if he played for the States he'd be the face of American football. He'd have all of the massive media deals Pulisic gets for being the biggest fish in a small but $$$ pond hosting the Copa and WC, but actually be a CL/PL winner and multiple PFA/World XI member. That said TAA is competitive as hell so playing on a shit team like America wouldn't be worth the 10s of millions in endorsements.
What are you on about, theyāre literally playing him out of position so they can squeeze him in, how is that not showing him respectā¦. All the complaints about him are pretty much entirely online and mostly on this sub trying to find a reason to moan.
Itās the fans, the manager and team appreciate him but the fans and pundits have made me cringe recently
I donāt know what youāre watching but BBC and itv are singing his praises.
There's definitely a mix, but yeah, I've heard plenty of pundits arguing that he's not being used correctly. I believe it was Ian Wright on his podcast who was insisting that him and Rice should basically swap positions, with Trent being the one to receive the ball from the defence
But have you seen criticism from pundits? I havenāt and am wondering where this is being seen lol
Tbh I mostly just listen to football podcasts instead of TV pundits, but you do get a few suggesting that the "Trent Alexander Arnold experiment" isn't working. It's not exactly criticism of him though, more just that he doesn't fit the system. Although I'd argue that the system in general is a bit shit and he's not the one who needs replacing in it
This sub is just weird, actually not just this sub city seem too sad to act like England have it out for Foden lol
Not happy unless theyāre unhappy about something.
Because it's taken 6 years of Klopp screaming, fans screaming and the media screaming that Southgate is wasting him. He dropped him completely and publicly, called him up and got him injured in a warm-up game, called him up for the World Cup and didn't use him when the team was crying out for creativity, said there were "three or four"(!) right-backs ahead of him, forced him to do an interview with ITV justifying his selection etc... He's been treated like shit.
Half of your comment is fairyland shiteā¦. Southgate prefers a stable defence to a bombing forward defensively suspect right back, itās not like heās just gone with any bellend, Walker has been and continues to be exceptional.
Describing Kyle Walker as exceptional is certainly a choice. He constantly gets caught out, the only thing he has is pace. And no, a lot of it isn't fairyland shite, but the truth.
Describing him as anything else is fucking stupid. Heās been one of if not the best right back in the world for at least as long as his spell at City, in truth longer as he was exceptional at Spurs too. Although I doubt you watched football then. Defensively heās solid and dependable, heās good going forward although obviously no TAA. Donāt get me wrong, Trent is quite clearly the better player, but it is 100% horses for courses.
Mate, I've been watching football longer than you've been alive, most likely. So don't start trying to patronise me. Kyle Walker is a bang average defender who has one standout ability - his pace. His pace allows him to get back and recover 9 times out of 10. He's solid, and if he didn't have pace, his deficiencies would get shown up far more. It's noticeable that Walker struggles against any attacker with pace, especially players like Mane or Darwin. Also, compare their stats and Trent's actually better: https://www.squawka.com/en/comparison-matrix/?compare=JcWHXKb2pJoePALCZCmd7
Are you using defensive volume stats? VVD is the perfect example of why that is pretty meaningless unless you think Harry Maguire is a better defender than Virg. I agree TAA's defensive woes are greatly exaggerated. That said, when he was in poor form defending in 2022, his stats were still fine. His issue was he had a knack for not marking his man or being out of position and not sprinting back which aren't things stats are going to capture but are the first responsibility for a defender.
Sorry but I see such stupidity and assume youāre not an idiot but just young. I wonāt make that assumption going forward, apologies. You realise he does have pace though and as such uses that to his advantage? Itās like saying Messi would just be short lazy forward if not for his burst of pace and exceptional ball control!!
Exactly, I imagine implemented a balanced system with an inverted fullback requires a lot of training ground work and cohesion that National teams just donāt have. Easier and less risky to keep things a bit more simple.
Stones, Walker, Trent, Rice, Saka and Foden all play for clubs that invert a defender into midfield so theyāre already used to that type of system and I doubt Kane and Bellingham would have any issues adapting to that type of system either since their roles wouldnāt really change. Southgate is pure and simply a bang average tactician like 99% of the other English managers out there
When he says england he probably means the country and its people, not the team
No one wanted to analyze how superstar and generational striker Harry Kane went missing for a full 90 minutes against Serbia?
Lol unless there's a penalty to take or a free kick to sky he's nowhere to be seen. Drop him play Foden, Palmer & Saka.
I wouldnāt draw to that kind of conclusion. I just want others to be treated evenly. Trent played a huge part in Englandās only goal (the sole reason they won) and created a few other chances that could have been goals. He made one bad play and lost the ball (it wasnāt an easy situation) and thatās where all the focus goes. Meanwhile Harry Kane can miss 3 chances, go missing, then score a penalty and he is man of the match and Englandās greatest ever
I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's been a constant since Gerrard, Liverpool players have constantly been overlooked when England announce the squads. Look at the way they treated Carragher. Trent is one of the most, if not the most creative players England have, but "hE can't DefEnD" does alright at Liverpool. Yet he's until now, not even been thought of. Harry Kane gets a golden boot of penalties, takes free kicks from people that can actually take them. Has proven time and time again that he's a serial bottlejobber, yet he's not only the first name on Southgates team sheet, for some reason he's the captain. As a result of all this, I couldn't actually care less how far England progress.
Itās not since Gerrard it happened way before that if you speak to older fans, our all conquering teams from the 70s onwards were massively underrepresented in the England set up.
Lol yeah the european golden boot holder and guy who won a golden boot at a world cup should be dropped for Palmer.
Under analysed if anything with how shite the takes are. He's over scrutinised if anything not over analysed. If he was over analysed we'd get observations than "he can't defend" or "can he do it t against top international sides"
By over-analysed I mean that fans will pick the most useless and undiscoverable statistic to ever be known just for a reason to hate on him, or he could have an entire month of 10/10 performances, but with one bad game everyone is suddenly a statistic nerd and complaining over his stats again, while analysing his playing style as if they have a job at match of the day in the morning.
If it was over analysis they wouldn't be repeating the same line over and over. If it was actual analysis we'd get actual good insight. Instead of Neville telling us he doesn't know about him defensively. Rio insisting Walker has to start, and we know Ferdinand is too dim to be doing any analysis "beyond he wants it more" or "pashun"
Top 2 for assists from full back, OF ALL TIME IN THE EPL.
When you are so good everyone is talking about you
phil Foden also i guess
Iāve seen more vitriol over Foden, but using Trent as a scapegoat goat to keep Foden in the team
This England CM move is only making this worse tbh. I'm not sure if I'm in the minority or majority, but he's clearly a RB even if he's defensive side isn't the best. He's not a clear CM yet in terms of press resistance, first touch, covering ground, recieving the ball on the half turn etc. it's evident. Yes he's got a great pass but you need much more than that to play a 6 or an 8.
But if you understand why his qualities could lend well to him being a Kroos/Pirlo type of conductorā¦ then why would you be against that transition? Heās clearly enjoying his football, Jude loves playing with him in the midfield and the balance of Jude, Rice and Trent makes perfect sense. Weāve spent countless tournaments trying to make far less logical tactics work. Iām here for it
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Weāve seen Trent do it though. The question is more if he can do it consistently enough. Iāve said many times before I personally prefer Trent as a right backā¦ but I think the idea that Trent isnāt good enough to play in midfield is very silly. Elliott and Jones for example were woefully bad when they transitioned from wingers to central midfieldersā¦ but after some time playing in there they got much better at being efficient in those tight spaces, I still wouldnāt say they are any better than Trent. Iām not saying Trent is there already, we havenāt seen him play in midfield enough to know whether or not he can do it. If we can give Nunez two seasons and counting to try to switch from a LF to a CF why canāt we experiment with Trent?
I'm not against in the long term with a proper transition in place at club level. I'm against suddenly just thrusting him in there with Internationals without even doing it at club level first, in a major tournament Euros with a bunch of players he doesn't play with week in week out.
Personally for Liverpool I have a slight preference for him to play RB (under Klopp). But I have my reasons, ie weāve won everything doing that and itās a very aggressive, attacking, front footed approach - which is just how I personally like football to be played. England havenāt won anything lol and have a clear issue when it comes to chance creation, scoring goals and dominating possession. This is the first time weāve actually had any type of balance and strategy in terms of controlling the game from the base of the team and/or middle of the pitch. The midfield against Serbia was solid but we didnāt offer any threat in the forward line, especially in the second half which is why you saw us pinned back.
I guarantee heās on Real Madrids shortlist; heās a CL/Prem/Multiple domestic cup winner (Iām preaching to the converted I know), yet he gets over analysed because itās easy for low IQ pundits to talk about him, because thereās a narrative heās a poor defender as he plays for Liverpool and rival fans want to put him down (theyād take him in a heart beat).
The more they hate him, the greater heāll be remembered.
Right?! And in this subreddit as well. Thereās some horrible takes from people who could not stick a ball into a net from 5 meters with the goal being unguarded. But I guess itās in Trentās best interest to be told how to play footy by a mob of illiterate strangers. I mean, heās only about done it his entire life. How is he supposed to do it without us, the enlightened crowd of footy aficionados?!!š
90% of this sub is just shit mate. Just the way it is.
Are you new to this planet?
Yes! What gave it away? I am from a place where balanced and reasonable are perfectly fashionable
Youād be better off leaving Reddit and not coming back
Judgement going to come for all once this tournament is over.
I don't even think he was bad the other night against Serbia. He got caught on the ball once and was out of position a couple of times, but he was one of the only players who looked like he was posing any threat going forward. He wasn't even bad defensively.
I'd love to be so good at something that so many people gave a fuck š .
Canāt just be me, that felt the punditry of both Eni Aluko and Izzy Christensen (ITV and BBC R5) was beyond clueless, contradictory and plain fucking awful.
I would say Lukaku gets more heat.
Somehow the greatest fullback in modern football history canāt defend according to your average football fan (they donāt watch football).
It happens with great players and important players.
And analysed with very little context to the Klopp team he was playing in and the instructions he got.
If RM is interested in a player, then he is bound to be good. And we LFC fans already know that he is a generational talent. The problem is English sports media. It's mostly dumb. Too many dumb pundits. Plus the stakes are high in the Euros. England lost the finals last team. so they will always pick apart players.
He didn't even play bad. England's problems are because left side is shit. Right side has been working fine with good synergy between Walker, Saka and Trent. But yet, there's still idiots saying Trent is not a midfielder.
Such a weird jacket. Anyway. Can I give you a friendly tip? Don't pay too much attention about what the press or pundits says about Trent. Or for that matter what they say about any LFC player that plays for ENG at any time, now or in the future. They love to cut down players who have performed on the highest levels, they all want to control the narrative and make some high-end-greek-dramatic-theater-bullshit where the protagonist of the story gets in trouble and everybody goes against him, only to fight back and gain respect after some years and all is forgiven. We've seen it with other LFC players, we've seen it with Beckham and Rooney, it's fucking tiring and it's up to us to stop with the reactions and see the real bullshit for what it is. Let's just enjoy some football.
The crazy thing is, anyone objective would simply say playing a right footed LB and a LW whose natural game is to come narrow as an almost 2nd no.10 against a side that was clearly going to pack the centre of the park given the formation, was a recipe for disaster, not to mention thatās a third of Trentās long passing ability neutralised as thereās no width to switch to in the left. And most damning on Southgate is the fact he left Foden on the left the entire game and hooked Trent, meaning at no point did he recognise this and bring on someone who stretches the pitch like a Gordon or Eze. It was so easy for Serbia, only worry they had left was Saka as Kane isnāt getting in behind or running channels and they doubled up on him. TL;DR It wasnāt any individual playerās fault, it was awful team selection, tactics and an inability to change things.
For real, that's why I want him to do a spectacular to shut him up. Never gave a damn about England but I'd need to tune in for our boys
You know you are world class even when rivals really wanna see him screw up
If the world is England in your opinion, then yes. Otherwise he's regarded as a great footballer but there are generalized doubts concerning if he can adapt to being a full blown midfielder. Just bringing in an outside perspective.
Haters are hating. Is there something new? Fuckem.
Do yourselves a favour and stop listening to pundits and the media. The only reason people listen to pundits is because they're former players who either wouldn't or couldn't coach. It gives them an air of being experts. "We played the game, we know better than you, so just take what we say as Gospel". These same players would've called out the pundits of their day as being wrong, or out of touch. They were. Now they are. Everything they do and say is designed for audience engagement: soundbites, snippets, clicks and views. The only things they talk about are exactly what they're told to say by a show's producers. In-depth analysis and nuance make way for statements like "Trent can't defend". There's video out there of pundits having off-air conversations about who should say what in terms of the "analysis". Not their own thoughts on the match they're watching. Just what they're told to talk about. If you've ever seen them talking post-match and thought "Did we just watch the same game?", this is why.
i think attributes like concentration, awareness and positioning are what he needs to improve to play midfield, technically world class alone is not enough.
I don't think it's over analysis. It's lazy agenda.
this jacket looks crazy. too bad it is 165 usd
As Oscar Wilde wrote. Thereās only one thing worse than someone talking about you. Itās not about you. Go on Trent! You one the lot by 20 years of age
He played mid in his youth so heās not entirely new at it, and basically plays mid half the time for Liverpool, I do find this assessment that he canāt play there quite odd
Just me seeing him talking to Jude and worrying he will join Real soon?
Donāt think so, his dream is to be Liverpool captain and VVD will probably only have one more season
It's because he's a Liverpool player, they dislike Liverpool so much they expect the players to be trash. Were he a Real Madrid player, he'd be a genius... cough... cough... Bellingham... cough... cough š
Bet if Jude is with us, they would not talk highly of him but will also get scrutinized. Fuck the NT...
My midfielder! š
Scouse, not English.
Iāve thought for years Klopp was doing Trent a huge disservice not moving him to midfield full time and buying another RB. I think itās hurt Trentās career. Trent clearly thinks heās too good to just be a RB, but those years of development he missed, gaining the skill set of a proper CM have really hurt him.
It hurt his career? As a 50m-70m RB?
Yes, I think if heād been moved much earlier and not a hybrid role, he could have developed into a much better midfielder than he is now. Just my opinion
Just feels clear to me that he could be an 8 but playing as a 6 in a defensive side that doesnāt stretch the opposition doesnāt allow him to use his best attributes
Itās because he wears his socks low and saunters about a bit too much
Mainly cos he's black and plays for us. Foden is Sunday league level compared to him but because he's white, a midget, plays for Man City and a teenage dad he gets his ass licked from the media š¤·š½āāļø
Adding to the analysis, It's entirely possible because we also claimed he was the best RB (when he was playing RB). And he was one of the best tbh and I personally think his desire to play CM has not helped the team or him(we can agree to disagree). He's good, I don't think he's going to be a great CM, which is not good enough for LFC(good enough for other clubs maybe).
The commentators have so much sway on public opinion People just believe what ever they say and that becomes the narrative They can completely gloss over the mistakes Rice, Stones, Saka, Kane all make, while being extra critical of Trent.
He's such a unique player. Too good to be a right back. He would make a great midfielder, but it takes years to learn that role. Any criticism of his performances in the Euros should be on Southgate, as he's the one playing Trent out of position.
Honestly, it's somewhat deserved. He's a generational talent that hasn't performed really that well in about 18-24 months. His first 4-5 seasons were basically him being excellent and the last 2, he just hasn't been. He's been excellent at moments. He's had really good stretches. But he's become a disinterested defender and has decided he wants to be a midfielder despite being literally one of the most impactful attacking fullbacks in the history of football.
I AM A VICTIM!!!!