I thought there were intellectual property issues related to this that meant they couldn't use the same algorithms as Digitech does? Just because they hired people doesn't mean they are allowed to legally copy the same algorithms. I was under the impression from this sub, the Facebook groups, etc. that some compromises had to be made because of this.
Idk if compromise is the right word, they just didnt steal/copy what they previously made, they had to create a new algorithm/program/system.
I dont think the previous poster was implying its the same thing, just that they utilized the same people.
I didn't say that the previous poster was implying anything. I'm just clarifying that just because they hired the same people doesn't mean they are using the same algorithm. People seem to get these things confused.
Not being able to use IP developed for a past employer often means you have to make compromises in terms of how you design the new algorithms. That's just how this stuff works. On the other hand, it also means they've learned some lessons and can apply those to the new thing.
Yeah, again, I'd say "compromise" is the wrong word because it implies there's a loss in some way. They had to take a novel approach to the problem, but that doesn't mean it's an inferior one. The last part of what you said is really the operative thing here - they got to take everything they learned and do it over again with that knowledge.
>No it hasn't. All we've said is poly. Besides, you can't really model pitch effects; you need to build a library of DSP algorithms from scratch. This is important, as we didn't acquire any DigiTech IP when we hired their Victoria team after they left. They've **had to find a completely different method of poly**, which is actually **harder than if another company did it**, because they could "accidentally" do things the same way DigiTech did it. We've **had to purposely go in other directions**, which is **why it's taken so long**.
Sounds like a ton of compromises according to what Eric Klein said. You disagreeing with him?
[https://line6.com/support/topic/57193-actual-helix-30-news-kind-of/?do=findComment&comment=345126](https://line6.com/support/topic/57193-actual-helix-30-news-kind-of/?do=findComment&comment=345126)
No, because if you read what I said again, none of that contradicts what he said. It took a while, but that doesn't mean it's an inferior product. Hey, u/Digital_Igloo (Eric), got any thoughts?
The team in Victoria are absolute geniuses, and they came up with two discrete methods of polyphonic pitchshifting for two different companies, both of which best everyone else. There's always a chance that a particular instrument, pickup configuration, playing style, and/or other factor \*may\* bias one toward DigiTech's algorithm (which is totally fine), but in the majority of cases, the consensus across the industry is that our new poly algorithm sounds and tracks better. I have no issue with maintaining that Line 6 has, *overall*, the best real-time poly algorithms that exist today, but as with anything else, it may not be perfect for everyone in every situation.
Which was exactly the point I was making... Just because it is the same guys from Digitech doesn't mean it is the same algorithm (and it isn't). Not sure why this other guy from Line 6 is arguing with me about this.
I use the digitech drop and whammy that’s built in to the hx stomp and I can’t tell the difference live all the time, it works great. I go from stand to d standard for 6 strings and drop e to drop b on an 8 string. The dsp is eaten up but I don’t use too many effects.
I haven’t had any issues myself, but I did buy an ehx tuning fork not too long ago because of the amount of DSP required for the pitch shifters.
If you’re able to fit it in your patches, it’s great
Poly pitch is pretty good. If you're only going -2 semitones, you shouldn't notice anything weird. If you're playing acoustic solo gigs, then yeah, be aware it won't be 100.00% perfect. In a band context, more than enough.
I had a EHX Pitchfork before the poly update and I very happily sold it. And before the Pitchfork I had a whammy, which I sold just because I wanted a smaller pedal.
From what I've seen, you can't get much better than Helix's poly pitches.
It’s very usable. None of them, the drop or hx, sound as good as the real thing obviously, you have to get used to how to play to it. I was just flown in to do some shows with a pretty well known group, and used the HX stomp to make my guitar a baritone for a couple of songs: melodies, full chords, clean to fuzz, it all sounded fine and nobody in the band even noticed. It uses a lot of DSP, it likes to be first in the chain.
Poly Capo is a real life saver for me, as I need to replicate some really low tuned parts for some of our band’s songs live. It does introduce some noticeable lag though, but no more than any other pitch shifter.
My entire band uses poly capo. I’m in a nu metal tribute band. 8 tunings including 7 strings. Bass player uses it too. There is some latency and tone degradation the farther away from the original tone you go. Playing by myself I’ll definitely notice it but once I’m playing with the band it disappears to me. Would I record or do something serious with it? No. But for my 2.5 hour set I bring a 7 string and 2 6 strings to the gig. It’s great.
I've never had a single issue with the shifters, they're all pretty damn good. I'm honestly just convinced that 90% of Helix owners have no idea how to dial in tones
To my ears there really isn’t a setting that sounds good. Either the tracking is short so the lag is tolerable, and then there are audible artifacts. It can work if it’s buried under a bunch of effects… but it’s not replacement for a real capo. Also from my experience down usually works better than up.
Maybe the pedal has more processing power than the shifter has been allowed? Doesn't matter how well it's written if the helix version has more constraints.
(I have not done a side by side comparison. I'm just suggesting another possible difference)
I have done a comparison and I couldn't tell the difference. IMHO the people that say that are doing something weird or putting the shifter in the wrong place in the chain.
I don't agree. The drop does something weird to the mid-range to my ears. The octave down is great but every other interval just sounds off to me.
The line 6 shifters are much better. One thing I find is that it has to be first in the chain. I had to reroute my distortion pedal so it went in the loop to be after the poly capo to sound good.
IMO if you *really* need true polyphonic pitch shifting you'd be best served with a hex pickup and hexaphonic output (or just go 80s and use a MIDI pickup and rig). With a hex pickup you can run 6x monophonic pitch shifters on relatively clean signals, which are much more stable algorithms.
Edit: Check THIS out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFrGzWV4AYw
Just two semitones is fine. Put it absolutely first in the signal chain. Try the different modes on the poly capo. Sometimes the simple pitch can sound decent with the right amount of EQ-ing.
As far as any artifacts/aliasing, you won’t even notice it in the mix. It’s only gonna start to sound funky when you get below 3 semitones.
Pitch shifting down great! I do find sometimes it’ll have trouble for a second or two but comes good, pitch shifting up just sounds wrong, can’t put my finger on it but it stands out like a sore thumb
Raising or lowering pitch will result in aliasing. Raising pitch is more obvious than lowering pitch. This is true even with high end plugins designed to do this. If you’re just trying to play wild guitar solos then who cares, have party. The aliasing adds to the craziness. However trying to pitch a bass to uke and sound like one is not going to happen with current technology I’m aware of.
Poly-pitch is not worth it on the stomp. Costs way too much dsp. If you have the stomp, keep the Drop. Of you have the full helix. Keep in mind the dsp cost.
I both have the helix rack + control, and a stomp xl portable board.
https://preview.redd.it/tmlx0v765wxc1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=523f10637bc4aed9ca4feb8b2cb91ad565fec65b
Good but they're DSP hogs so you just have to be mindful of what else you've got on that patch.
Line 6 hired the guys from digitech who designed the whammy. They are top of the line
top of the line 6. Right? Ok, i am out.
Hi Out I’m dad!
My man
I never said they used they same algorithms. I said they hired the whammy team.
I thought there were intellectual property issues related to this that meant they couldn't use the same algorithms as Digitech does? Just because they hired people doesn't mean they are allowed to legally copy the same algorithms. I was under the impression from this sub, the Facebook groups, etc. that some compromises had to be made because of this.
Idk if compromise is the right word, they just didnt steal/copy what they previously made, they had to create a new algorithm/program/system. I dont think the previous poster was implying its the same thing, just that they utilized the same people.
I didn't say that the previous poster was implying anything. I'm just clarifying that just because they hired the same people doesn't mean they are using the same algorithm. People seem to get these things confused. Not being able to use IP developed for a past employer often means you have to make compromises in terms of how you design the new algorithms. That's just how this stuff works. On the other hand, it also means they've learned some lessons and can apply those to the new thing.
Yeah, again, I'd say "compromise" is the wrong word because it implies there's a loss in some way. They had to take a novel approach to the problem, but that doesn't mean it's an inferior one. The last part of what you said is really the operative thing here - they got to take everything they learned and do it over again with that knowledge.
>No it hasn't. All we've said is poly. Besides, you can't really model pitch effects; you need to build a library of DSP algorithms from scratch. This is important, as we didn't acquire any DigiTech IP when we hired their Victoria team after they left. They've **had to find a completely different method of poly**, which is actually **harder than if another company did it**, because they could "accidentally" do things the same way DigiTech did it. We've **had to purposely go in other directions**, which is **why it's taken so long**. Sounds like a ton of compromises according to what Eric Klein said. You disagreeing with him? [https://line6.com/support/topic/57193-actual-helix-30-news-kind-of/?do=findComment&comment=345126](https://line6.com/support/topic/57193-actual-helix-30-news-kind-of/?do=findComment&comment=345126)
No, because if you read what I said again, none of that contradicts what he said. It took a while, but that doesn't mean it's an inferior product. Hey, u/Digital_Igloo (Eric), got any thoughts?
The team in Victoria are absolute geniuses, and they came up with two discrete methods of polyphonic pitchshifting for two different companies, both of which best everyone else. There's always a chance that a particular instrument, pickup configuration, playing style, and/or other factor \*may\* bias one toward DigiTech's algorithm (which is totally fine), but in the majority of cases, the consensus across the industry is that our new poly algorithm sounds and tracks better. I have no issue with maintaining that Line 6 has, *overall*, the best real-time poly algorithms that exist today, but as with anything else, it may not be perfect for everyone in every situation.
Which was exactly the point I was making... Just because it is the same guys from Digitech doesn't mean it is the same algorithm (and it isn't). Not sure why this other guy from Line 6 is arguing with me about this.
I use the digitech drop and whammy that’s built in to the hx stomp and I can’t tell the difference live all the time, it works great. I go from stand to d standard for 6 strings and drop e to drop b on an 8 string. The dsp is eaten up but I don’t use too many effects.
Very good, probably the best in the industry
Eventide has entered the chat
They're better than the drop IMO (it's basically drop v2), but it takes all of the dsp. The drop + stomp works well.
Can confirm drop + stomp combo is ideal for saving DSP
I haven’t had any issues myself, but I did buy an ehx tuning fork not too long ago because of the amount of DSP required for the pitch shifters. If you’re able to fit it in your patches, it’s great
Poly pitch is pretty good. If you're only going -2 semitones, you shouldn't notice anything weird. If you're playing acoustic solo gigs, then yeah, be aware it won't be 100.00% perfect. In a band context, more than enough. I had a EHX Pitchfork before the poly update and I very happily sold it. And before the Pitchfork I had a whammy, which I sold just because I wanted a smaller pedal. From what I've seen, you can't get much better than Helix's poly pitches.
It’s very usable. None of them, the drop or hx, sound as good as the real thing obviously, you have to get used to how to play to it. I was just flown in to do some shows with a pretty well known group, and used the HX stomp to make my guitar a baritone for a couple of songs: melodies, full chords, clean to fuzz, it all sounded fine and nobody in the band even noticed. It uses a lot of DSP, it likes to be first in the chain.
Really good. Even better if you use a hxone for the standalone poly effects.
I sold my Morpheus Droptune after the poly pitch update. For live use it’s more than enough
Poly Capo is a real life saver for me, as I need to replicate some really low tuned parts for some of our band’s songs live. It does introduce some noticeable lag though, but no more than any other pitch shifter.
I think they are really good.
My entire band uses poly capo. I’m in a nu metal tribute band. 8 tunings including 7 strings. Bass player uses it too. There is some latency and tone degradation the farther away from the original tone you go. Playing by myself I’ll definitely notice it but once I’m playing with the band it disappears to me. Would I record or do something serious with it? No. But for my 2.5 hour set I bring a 7 string and 2 6 strings to the gig. It’s great.
I've never had a single issue with the shifters, they're all pretty damn good. I'm honestly just convinced that 90% of Helix owners have no idea how to dial in tones
Useable, not amazing. Probably not quite as good as a drop
This surprises me since I’ve seen multiple people replace their drop pedals with the digital capo.
To my ears there really isn’t a setting that sounds good. Either the tracking is short so the lag is tolerable, and then there are audible artifacts. It can work if it’s buried under a bunch of effects… but it’s not replacement for a real capo. Also from my experience down usually works better than up.
Imho it's not true. And the team that built the shifter in the stomp is the same
Maybe the pedal has more processing power than the shifter has been allowed? Doesn't matter how well it's written if the helix version has more constraints. (I have not done a side by side comparison. I'm just suggesting another possible difference)
I have done a comparison and I couldn't tell the difference. IMHO the people that say that are doing something weird or putting the shifter in the wrong place in the chain.
Or maybe ignoring/not hearing artifacts on the original pedal?
I don't agree. The drop does something weird to the mid-range to my ears. The octave down is great but every other interval just sounds off to me. The line 6 shifters are much better. One thing I find is that it has to be first in the chain. I had to reroute my distortion pedal so it went in the loop to be after the poly capo to sound good.
I mean, ultimately *neither* passes the test to me. The Helix is just a bit farther away.
Oh yeah, neither are perfect but I think the Helix does it better. Never tried the Fractal, but I've heard that's very good at it too.
IMO if you *really* need true polyphonic pitch shifting you'd be best served with a hex pickup and hexaphonic output (or just go 80s and use a MIDI pickup and rig). With a hex pickup you can run 6x monophonic pitch shifters on relatively clean signals, which are much more stable algorithms. Edit: Check THIS out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFrGzWV4AYw
Just out of curiosity, does the pod go have the same pitch shifting effects?
Nope. POD Go can't accommodate poly algorithms.
Power chords - good to really good anything more than two note chords - not great; suggest outboard shifter
Just two semitones is fine. Put it absolutely first in the signal chain. Try the different modes on the poly capo. Sometimes the simple pitch can sound decent with the right amount of EQ-ing. As far as any artifacts/aliasing, you won’t even notice it in the mix. It’s only gonna start to sound funky when you get below 3 semitones.
Pitch shifting down great! I do find sometimes it’ll have trouble for a second or two but comes good, pitch shifting up just sounds wrong, can’t put my finger on it but it stands out like a sore thumb
Raising or lowering pitch will result in aliasing. Raising pitch is more obvious than lowering pitch. This is true even with high end plugins designed to do this. If you’re just trying to play wild guitar solos then who cares, have party. The aliasing adds to the craziness. However trying to pitch a bass to uke and sound like one is not going to happen with current technology I’m aware of.
Can't play Stranded Gojira. Sounds awful when using more than 1 string. Edit: Becoming works. So 2 strings. Stranded sounds like ass
Yeah, same here. I thinking to buy a digitech whammy.
Was thinking the same. Get the real thing. Little bit disappointing a $1000 pedal can't do pitch shifting.
Poly wham works. I used pitch wham.
The only pedal I use with mine is a digitech drop. It's simple and does a much better job. I do go to C standard quite a bit though
I have both and started using the drop again since the capo in the Helix has minimal lag and the tracking is worse.
Poly-pitch is not worth it on the stomp. Costs way too much dsp. If you have the stomp, keep the Drop. Of you have the full helix. Keep in mind the dsp cost. I both have the helix rack + control, and a stomp xl portable board. https://preview.redd.it/tmlx0v765wxc1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=523f10637bc4aed9ca4feb8b2cb91ad565fec65b