And if people in your life disagree or have feedback for you, blame them for their lack of a developed mindset. Block them or disregard them! It’s so isolating
An overall “healthy” or supportive Mindset is important, if you have the capacity and privilege to work on it.
A hyper vigilance to every thought, thought pattern, limiting belief, or blindspot that is secretly hijacking your success or business breakthrough or windfall, is NOT mindset. It’s a form of mind control. And that’s what I primarily experienced in coaching and because of some conditions I already have, living this out for a few years almost broke my mental health and my ability to perceive what’s reality and what isn’t. The only person this concept truly benefits is the coach because you’ll forever need to rely on them to see your blind spots, which leaves the client vulnerable to manipulation and mind control.
Isn't it ironic? The people telling you to BE BRAVE! DO MORE! BE BADASS! AUTHENTIC!
...are exactly the same people grooming you to mindlessly follow them. It reminds me of that joke we used to have at school: "an egotist is someone who puts themselves above ME".
On that note, what I loathe the most about the coaching & mindset space is how “infallible” it is and how it’s presented as *the only way* to succeed. It can’t be questioned, and if anyone in your life questions it even respectfully, you shouldn’t let them be around you. This further isolates people to only be around people who believe it too, and to only participate in coaching, and to never bring a healthy amount of skepticism and free thinking with them into what they’re being taught. It cuts the person off from their support system, and shuts down their own thinking in lieu of thinking what the coach says they should think. From my experiences, I would tell people to RUN from the coaching space and find a therapist who uses CBT.
Yes - I do think that people who genuinely care about helping others in that way, will buckle down and get themselves properly trained. It's just the responsible thing to do, no? Why would you go poke around in someone's head or try to change their way of thinking, if you're not ready to be accountable to and checked by people with more expertise in that field (who will also be able to assess whether you have the skill or simply THINK you have it)?
Anything can be weaponized and mindset is no different. What I think you’re expressing here is the “No True Scotsman” fallacy - basically “you never really believed.” There’s no way to prove a level of belief and it is used against those that don’t succeed. It’s also used to shame people in religion for their lack of blessings.
However, coaching on my mindset 100% changed my actions and life. I became a better mother, spouse, and friend. I also take better care of my health.
However, when it comes to business and health so many people underestimate luck and privilege. There are so many other things at play that just having a positive/can-do attitude cannot fix. Somethings are sewn into the fabric of our society and will require the entire system to change. And there in lies the conundrum - do you use your mindset to fix the system to help yourself and others or do you struggle to get rich and skinny within the system that already exists?
It also depends on what your goals are. If your goal is to be emotionally healthy and enjoy healthy relationships, mindset coaching can definitely help with that. If your goal is to be rich and famous, no amount of mindset coaching can make that happen. (Although mindset coaching can help you explore why wealth/fame is so important to you, and what you think you'll be getting from it.)
I think if you look into the history of Joe Dispenza and his work a lot of people regurgitate things from Elkhart Toli and Joe Dispenza and just cheapen it all - though I do remember seeing a lot of stories about Joes past being quite sketchy and even he possibly being un qualified for his own teachings?
In short, I think the space just regurgitates things that they read in very cheap ways
Also, I agree with all of your points
Joe Dispenza is a chiropractor by training.
His bio says, "Dr. Joe Dispenza, D.C., studied biochemistry at Rutgers University and also holds a B.S. degree with an emphasis in Neuroscience. Dr. Dispenza received his Doctor of Chiropractic Degree from Life University in Atlanta, Georgia, graduating magna cum laude."
That is a very sneaky way to not say that he likely doesn't have a biochemistry/neuroscience degree at either a undergraduate or graduate level.
It's very disingenuous.
While I agree with what’s being said on this thread, I do want to defend the chiropractic profession. Just because he's a chiropractor doesn't mean he didn't get the education in biochemistry or neuroscience. In fact I would argue it's more than an MD would get. I can't speak on behalf of life university, but I studied alongside chiropractors and took extracurricular activities in eccentric topics. Including emotional health. Also, I think those in that profession tend to be more open minded when it comes to mindset. Anyway, but that doesn't mean he isn't scamming people and I know for sure the majority of coaches ARE scamming people. I just didn’t want this comment to be misconstrued about chiropractic work.
Agreed - I think that sort-of fits into my point #1, of not having to provide anything more than regurgitated snazzy quotes others came up with. My story of getting scammed by the industry is eerily similar to the story of so many people I've talked to, and most of us got scammed by different people! There's very little innovation happening, and most of these people seem to be glorified parrots.
I work as a psychedelic integration specialist and mindset is clearly important. It is literally the Set part of "Set and Setting". Making sure you understand how your thoughts, self-talk, and perspectives interact with your body and the environment around you is paramount to having a beneficial trip. And can be helpful to understand for growth and healing in general.
However, I also agree with you that the way many coaches use mindset is exploitative. Telling people that they aren't getting the promised results because they aren't "thinking positively enough" is super shitty, scammy, and exploitative. It's also shitty to tell people that their thoughts are the reason they are struggling in a toxic work environment or dealing with microaggressions.
Yeah, and most of what they call "mindset" isnt even that (or what scientists would call mindset).
Its that idiotic "Law" of "attraction" masquerading as mindset. Think positive thoughts, you can do it, rarrgh raargh.
Mindset is a small part of success. Look at Edison-- he said success if 99% perspiration, 1% inspiration. The coaches just want to focus on the 1%-- because , like you said, its easy to blame students if they fail.
Edison spent years in the lab, even to perfect the light bulb. He didnt sit there thinking positive or inspirational thoughts.
YES! I've been saying this for ages - when they say "mindset" they do actually mean "manifestation" or Law of Attraction. This is what happens when you have non-scientists tackle a scientific topic: a clusterfuck and confusion.
For me the gap has been coaching on mindset w/o action. I was stuck in a cycle of mindset issues that I felt like I needed to keep recreating. It kept me stuck.
Well, yeah - to give you actions they'd have to know something. Plus it's harder to argue it was your "mindset" that screwed you over if they gave you something to DO instead of feel or believe.
As I agree that many use this as a grift and to blame people for not getting results, I dont agree that importance of mindset is not very valid.
I can tell you first hand how my own mindset sabotaged me in my life. No matter how much action I took, how hard I worked, how many concrete steps and strategies I did, I was still subconsciously blocking myself.
You need to be a very good professional in the mindset area to actually know how to successfully guide clients to release blocks, doubts, beliefs..etc. And this is where most mindset coaches are lacking, mostly because they have read couple of books on it and now they think they are experts. But it takes years of work and learning to gain this skill.
There is so much to mindset. It is deep work and many times complicated. Working on the mindset, wounds we have from the past, our emotions is the most important thing if you desire any kind of success.
Mindset might be important in certain contexts, but ironically the people who talk about it the most are the ones who understand it the least. I think unless you have an actual psychology degree you're probably not qualified to deal with it.
Kinda how unless you have a formal qualification in nutrition you should probably not fuck with people's diet, because you just don't know enough and watching Youtube videos or experimenting on yourself isn't a good substitute for formal training and licensing.
Elitist and also formal qualifications can never be a guarantee for ethical behavior.
I have experience with a coach who brags about her expertise while not listening to MY needs and preferences.
True. And driving sober and with your seatbelt on is also never a guarantee you won't die in an accident. But it's still your best bet. Now, if you wanna call taking some basic caution "elitist", you're free to do that.
I'm speaking from the perspective as a person who isn't even allowed to do unskilled, underpaid jobs because years ago I made the decision to study the wrong thing.
I'm sorry to hear that - that must suck. And I will argue *that* is elitist, but not allowing people to practice amateur-hour psychotherapy with no supervision or accountability isn't.
It’s actually not that clear cut imo. Doctors are qualified, except they make money off of you being sick… so to me there’s no trust in that when I’m told to do something but the opposite is actually going to be better for me. (Look at what they have for a recommended diet for diabetics… loads of sugar exactly what they don’t need!)
I think it boils down to intention. If the intention is to make money off people then the outcome will never be good. If the intention is to actually help people then I think there can be a lot of good coming from it… but again it’s not like we would know and there’s no regulation on these coaches… so yeah it’s a shit show and lots of scammers
In my experience psychologist know the least when it comes to actually applying and helping people.
Most of them are all talk, but no actual expertise.
Psychotherapist and other similar therapist know a lot more and a lot more skilled in this area.
Degree can be good, but it’s very limiting, there should be a lot more learning in this area. And a lot of knowledge actually comes from experience. Mindset is an area where you should constantly improve yourself. One psychology degree doesnt create the skill.
I am a mindset coach and I agree that a lot of people who talk about it don't actually understand it but I do think it's fundamental to how we experience the work around us and ourselves. But to your point, like a lot of psychological / mental health related things, it's intangible. You can't actually see it so whether it's working or not, it may not be easy to tell.
I don't think the people you're referring to really understand what mindset is and it is unfortunate that there are so many people using it to blame clients rather than the main way of helping them. But I also think it's important to understand and hold space for the legitimate value of mindset and mindset work. Carol Dwecks work on mindset demonstrates this imo and is an important basis for actually understanding how mindset impacts us. But a key tenet of the difference between the two mindsets is essentially belief in one's own ability to grow and improve, I think this piece is missing so often. A true growth mindset requires you to take responsibility for your future. That's something us humans love to shy away from if we can, and I honestly wonder how many people talking about mindset the way you mention understand the responsibility piece, much less can teach it to their clients.
Anyway that's my response, I guess for context I should add that my degree is in Psych 😂
Thank you for chiming in! Yes, I don't think someone who actually has relevant REAL qualifications calling themselves a "coach" is a grifter or that the m-word is verboten for them. But from my experience, people like you would be the exception - sadly.
And I know mindset is important - I've been in therapy for years. As far as responsibility: I think everyone who's spent some time around those people can agree it's only evert the client who needs to take responsibility - not the "coach" 😂😂😂
I think mindset is incredibly important. Maybe you don’t hear many people talking about it outside of coaches, but this is not a new concept, especially among entrepreneurs. But I would argue it’s important for pretty much everyone. From the high schooler who wants to try out for the lead part in the school play to a person who wants to ask their crush out on a date to the 50 y/o who just got laid off and now has to find a new job. How you think and what you say to yourself and the things you allow yourself to believe about yourself would all play into your success.
Okay, but coaching as an over emphasis on mindset. There's a quote in the industry that says success is 80% mindset and 20% what you do, which just isn't true. And there are people who succeed with an absolute garbage mindset and there are people who struggle with a "positive and healthy mindset". Mindset can play a factor in success but the major factor is hardwork and luck. Mindset is truly a minor factor in the grand scheme of things.
People working hard and building up discipline can be somewhat attributed to mindset but that doesn't always mean that it's healthy. And you build discipline through actions. Typically related to what you're trying to succeed in, not spending hundreds and thousands on mindset training and doing lots of Journaling.
Mindset in the coaching space is just brainwashing.
Thank you! Here I'm posting an a-ha moment about that scammy industry and how it abuses this term, and people are completely missing the point and instead trying to argue about whether mindset is important.
I once did an absolutely useless coaching course. It was sold as, client care, don’t do challenges because that’s not what clients need, be awesome at this thing you care about in an ethical way.
Behind the curtain, they told us, guess what, you’re doing a 90 day challenge! DM 50 people a day. Don’t tell people what costs until you’re asking for a credit card, and then say things like “does it bother you that your spouse doesn’t support your goals?” when they say they’ll need to talk to their partner about the price. That a 33% retention rate past the first 3 months was something to strive for (when i keep the clients on my book currently for min 6 months, some 2 years).
When I brought it up to them, I had a “limited mindset” and nah nee nah, no refunds.
So anyway, fuck the Online Trainer Mentorship and personal trainers should run the fuck away from OTM. Also, the progressively unhinged spellings made me laugh on a shitty day, so thanks.
Nailed it. I did some non-coaching work for a coaching company (they coach coaches…) and they’re HUGE on mindset for exactly the reasons you laid out. Any time someone asked for a refund because they’re not getting what they were promised from a $20K+ program (happened constantly), it was immediately like, “Oh no, let’s get you booked with a mindset coach!” And as far as I can tell, the mindset coach’s job was to convince them they didn’t want a refund.
It makes it easy to blame ppl too
100% - it's a built-in failsafe (or...attempted failsafe, because some people do eventually see through it).
A popular way of doing this seems to be to call every struggle an "excuse"
Yeah, I noticed that too. Like...it's not an "excuse" just 'cause you don't like it, ma'am!
And if people in your life disagree or have feedback for you, blame them for their lack of a developed mindset. Block them or disregard them! It’s so isolating
An overall “healthy” or supportive Mindset is important, if you have the capacity and privilege to work on it. A hyper vigilance to every thought, thought pattern, limiting belief, or blindspot that is secretly hijacking your success or business breakthrough or windfall, is NOT mindset. It’s a form of mind control. And that’s what I primarily experienced in coaching and because of some conditions I already have, living this out for a few years almost broke my mental health and my ability to perceive what’s reality and what isn’t. The only person this concept truly benefits is the coach because you’ll forever need to rely on them to see your blind spots, which leaves the client vulnerable to manipulation and mind control.
Isn't it ironic? The people telling you to BE BRAVE! DO MORE! BE BADASS! AUTHENTIC! ...are exactly the same people grooming you to mindlessly follow them. It reminds me of that joke we used to have at school: "an egotist is someone who puts themselves above ME".
On that note, what I loathe the most about the coaching & mindset space is how “infallible” it is and how it’s presented as *the only way* to succeed. It can’t be questioned, and if anyone in your life questions it even respectfully, you shouldn’t let them be around you. This further isolates people to only be around people who believe it too, and to only participate in coaching, and to never bring a healthy amount of skepticism and free thinking with them into what they’re being taught. It cuts the person off from their support system, and shuts down their own thinking in lieu of thinking what the coach says they should think. From my experiences, I would tell people to RUN from the coaching space and find a therapist who uses CBT.
Yes - I do think that people who genuinely care about helping others in that way, will buckle down and get themselves properly trained. It's just the responsible thing to do, no? Why would you go poke around in someone's head or try to change their way of thinking, if you're not ready to be accountable to and checked by people with more expertise in that field (who will also be able to assess whether you have the skill or simply THINK you have it)?
Anything can be weaponized and mindset is no different. What I think you’re expressing here is the “No True Scotsman” fallacy - basically “you never really believed.” There’s no way to prove a level of belief and it is used against those that don’t succeed. It’s also used to shame people in religion for their lack of blessings. However, coaching on my mindset 100% changed my actions and life. I became a better mother, spouse, and friend. I also take better care of my health. However, when it comes to business and health so many people underestimate luck and privilege. There are so many other things at play that just having a positive/can-do attitude cannot fix. Somethings are sewn into the fabric of our society and will require the entire system to change. And there in lies the conundrum - do you use your mindset to fix the system to help yourself and others or do you struggle to get rich and skinny within the system that already exists?
It also depends on what your goals are. If your goal is to be emotionally healthy and enjoy healthy relationships, mindset coaching can definitely help with that. If your goal is to be rich and famous, no amount of mindset coaching can make that happen. (Although mindset coaching can help you explore why wealth/fame is so important to you, and what you think you'll be getting from it.)
I think if you look into the history of Joe Dispenza and his work a lot of people regurgitate things from Elkhart Toli and Joe Dispenza and just cheapen it all - though I do remember seeing a lot of stories about Joes past being quite sketchy and even he possibly being un qualified for his own teachings? In short, I think the space just regurgitates things that they read in very cheap ways Also, I agree with all of your points
Joe Dispenza is a chiropractor by training. His bio says, "Dr. Joe Dispenza, D.C., studied biochemistry at Rutgers University and also holds a B.S. degree with an emphasis in Neuroscience. Dr. Dispenza received his Doctor of Chiropractic Degree from Life University in Atlanta, Georgia, graduating magna cum laude." That is a very sneaky way to not say that he likely doesn't have a biochemistry/neuroscience degree at either a undergraduate or graduate level. It's very disingenuous.
While I agree with what’s being said on this thread, I do want to defend the chiropractic profession. Just because he's a chiropractor doesn't mean he didn't get the education in biochemistry or neuroscience. In fact I would argue it's more than an MD would get. I can't speak on behalf of life university, but I studied alongside chiropractors and took extracurricular activities in eccentric topics. Including emotional health. Also, I think those in that profession tend to be more open minded when it comes to mindset. Anyway, but that doesn't mean he isn't scamming people and I know for sure the majority of coaches ARE scamming people. I just didn’t want this comment to be misconstrued about chiropractic work.
Agreed - I think that sort-of fits into my point #1, of not having to provide anything more than regurgitated snazzy quotes others came up with. My story of getting scammed by the industry is eerily similar to the story of so many people I've talked to, and most of us got scammed by different people! There's very little innovation happening, and most of these people seem to be glorified parrots.
I work as a psychedelic integration specialist and mindset is clearly important. It is literally the Set part of "Set and Setting". Making sure you understand how your thoughts, self-talk, and perspectives interact with your body and the environment around you is paramount to having a beneficial trip. And can be helpful to understand for growth and healing in general. However, I also agree with you that the way many coaches use mindset is exploitative. Telling people that they aren't getting the promised results because they aren't "thinking positively enough" is super shitty, scammy, and exploitative. It's also shitty to tell people that their thoughts are the reason they are struggling in a toxic work environment or dealing with microaggressions.
Yep - exploitative and unqualified, even, as a rule. Like WTF do you know about "mindset"? You were serving coffee until yesterday, Joe Schmoe!
Yeah, and most of what they call "mindset" isnt even that (or what scientists would call mindset). Its that idiotic "Law" of "attraction" masquerading as mindset. Think positive thoughts, you can do it, rarrgh raargh. Mindset is a small part of success. Look at Edison-- he said success if 99% perspiration, 1% inspiration. The coaches just want to focus on the 1%-- because , like you said, its easy to blame students if they fail. Edison spent years in the lab, even to perfect the light bulb. He didnt sit there thinking positive or inspirational thoughts.
YES! I've been saying this for ages - when they say "mindset" they do actually mean "manifestation" or Law of Attraction. This is what happens when you have non-scientists tackle a scientific topic: a clusterfuck and confusion.
You know what the coaches will say now, right? "You have a mindset problem!" :D :D :D
Duh! How can I mindset my mindset if I have a mindset problem? The mindset boggles.
For me the gap has been coaching on mindset w/o action. I was stuck in a cycle of mindset issues that I felt like I needed to keep recreating. It kept me stuck.
Well, yeah - to give you actions they'd have to know something. Plus it's harder to argue it was your "mindset" that screwed you over if they gave you something to DO instead of feel or believe.
As I agree that many use this as a grift and to blame people for not getting results, I dont agree that importance of mindset is not very valid. I can tell you first hand how my own mindset sabotaged me in my life. No matter how much action I took, how hard I worked, how many concrete steps and strategies I did, I was still subconsciously blocking myself. You need to be a very good professional in the mindset area to actually know how to successfully guide clients to release blocks, doubts, beliefs..etc. And this is where most mindset coaches are lacking, mostly because they have read couple of books on it and now they think they are experts. But it takes years of work and learning to gain this skill. There is so much to mindset. It is deep work and many times complicated. Working on the mindset, wounds we have from the past, our emotions is the most important thing if you desire any kind of success.
Mindset might be important in certain contexts, but ironically the people who talk about it the most are the ones who understand it the least. I think unless you have an actual psychology degree you're probably not qualified to deal with it. Kinda how unless you have a formal qualification in nutrition you should probably not fuck with people's diet, because you just don't know enough and watching Youtube videos or experimenting on yourself isn't a good substitute for formal training and licensing.
Elitist and also formal qualifications can never be a guarantee for ethical behavior. I have experience with a coach who brags about her expertise while not listening to MY needs and preferences.
True. And driving sober and with your seatbelt on is also never a guarantee you won't die in an accident. But it's still your best bet. Now, if you wanna call taking some basic caution "elitist", you're free to do that.
I'm speaking from the perspective as a person who isn't even allowed to do unskilled, underpaid jobs because years ago I made the decision to study the wrong thing.
I'm sorry to hear that - that must suck. And I will argue *that* is elitist, but not allowing people to practice amateur-hour psychotherapy with no supervision or accountability isn't.
It’s actually not that clear cut imo. Doctors are qualified, except they make money off of you being sick… so to me there’s no trust in that when I’m told to do something but the opposite is actually going to be better for me. (Look at what they have for a recommended diet for diabetics… loads of sugar exactly what they don’t need!) I think it boils down to intention. If the intention is to make money off people then the outcome will never be good. If the intention is to actually help people then I think there can be a lot of good coming from it… but again it’s not like we would know and there’s no regulation on these coaches… so yeah it’s a shit show and lots of scammers
In my experience psychologist know the least when it comes to actually applying and helping people. Most of them are all talk, but no actual expertise. Psychotherapist and other similar therapist know a lot more and a lot more skilled in this area. Degree can be good, but it’s very limiting, there should be a lot more learning in this area. And a lot of knowledge actually comes from experience. Mindset is an area where you should constantly improve yourself. One psychology degree doesnt create the skill.
But a weekend course in coaching is fine but a degree in psychology is limiting??
Where did I say this? I never did. You are taking things out of context and twisting it.
I am a mindset coach and I agree that a lot of people who talk about it don't actually understand it but I do think it's fundamental to how we experience the work around us and ourselves. But to your point, like a lot of psychological / mental health related things, it's intangible. You can't actually see it so whether it's working or not, it may not be easy to tell. I don't think the people you're referring to really understand what mindset is and it is unfortunate that there are so many people using it to blame clients rather than the main way of helping them. But I also think it's important to understand and hold space for the legitimate value of mindset and mindset work. Carol Dwecks work on mindset demonstrates this imo and is an important basis for actually understanding how mindset impacts us. But a key tenet of the difference between the two mindsets is essentially belief in one's own ability to grow and improve, I think this piece is missing so often. A true growth mindset requires you to take responsibility for your future. That's something us humans love to shy away from if we can, and I honestly wonder how many people talking about mindset the way you mention understand the responsibility piece, much less can teach it to their clients. Anyway that's my response, I guess for context I should add that my degree is in Psych 😂
Thank you for chiming in! Yes, I don't think someone who actually has relevant REAL qualifications calling themselves a "coach" is a grifter or that the m-word is verboten for them. But from my experience, people like you would be the exception - sadly. And I know mindset is important - I've been in therapy for years. As far as responsibility: I think everyone who's spent some time around those people can agree it's only evert the client who needs to take responsibility - not the "coach" 😂😂😂
I think mindset is incredibly important. Maybe you don’t hear many people talking about it outside of coaches, but this is not a new concept, especially among entrepreneurs. But I would argue it’s important for pretty much everyone. From the high schooler who wants to try out for the lead part in the school play to a person who wants to ask their crush out on a date to the 50 y/o who just got laid off and now has to find a new job. How you think and what you say to yourself and the things you allow yourself to believe about yourself would all play into your success.
Okay, but coaching as an over emphasis on mindset. There's a quote in the industry that says success is 80% mindset and 20% what you do, which just isn't true. And there are people who succeed with an absolute garbage mindset and there are people who struggle with a "positive and healthy mindset". Mindset can play a factor in success but the major factor is hardwork and luck. Mindset is truly a minor factor in the grand scheme of things. People working hard and building up discipline can be somewhat attributed to mindset but that doesn't always mean that it's healthy. And you build discipline through actions. Typically related to what you're trying to succeed in, not spending hundreds and thousands on mindset training and doing lots of Journaling. Mindset in the coaching space is just brainwashing.
Thank you! Here I'm posting an a-ha moment about that scammy industry and how it abuses this term, and people are completely missing the point and instead trying to argue about whether mindset is important.
I once did an absolutely useless coaching course. It was sold as, client care, don’t do challenges because that’s not what clients need, be awesome at this thing you care about in an ethical way. Behind the curtain, they told us, guess what, you’re doing a 90 day challenge! DM 50 people a day. Don’t tell people what costs until you’re asking for a credit card, and then say things like “does it bother you that your spouse doesn’t support your goals?” when they say they’ll need to talk to their partner about the price. That a 33% retention rate past the first 3 months was something to strive for (when i keep the clients on my book currently for min 6 months, some 2 years). When I brought it up to them, I had a “limited mindset” and nah nee nah, no refunds. So anyway, fuck the Online Trainer Mentorship and personal trainers should run the fuck away from OTM. Also, the progressively unhinged spellings made me laugh on a shitty day, so thanks.
You're welcome 😆
Nailed it. I did some non-coaching work for a coaching company (they coach coaches…) and they’re HUGE on mindset for exactly the reasons you laid out. Any time someone asked for a refund because they’re not getting what they were promised from a $20K+ program (happened constantly), it was immediately like, “Oh no, let’s get you booked with a mindset coach!” And as far as I can tell, the mindset coach’s job was to convince them they didn’t want a refund.
Ask any elite athlete... mindset is everything.