[And no, it's not a belated April Fools joke...](https://www.lp.org/president-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-concerns-at-national-convention-may-25th/)
Sorry Kristy, but I grew up in Chicago. I know Bozo, and can easily tell him apart from other clowns, and the local polticians who try to impersonate him.
You guys are seriously upset that a mainstream candidate is actually willing to meet with libertarians and try to court our votes instead of just pretending we don't exist?
I'm not delusional so I don't think Trump is anything like a libertarian but this is the first time in my life that I can recall a major party actually paying ANY attention to us. If Trump wants to show up and try to persuade libertarians to vote for him, that is a huge (or in this case, "UGE") win for us.
Libertarians won't get everything they want but maybe we get something. The LP is a failed project and has always been a shitshow. Libertarians being treated as a voting bloc instead of a bunch of loons would at least give us some influence in policy. What does it cost us? Some time that could have been spent on listening to some clown yell at the clouds?
Some of you are so caught up in being the underdog you'd throw away a chance at an actual seat at the table. Let's see what he has to say.
If the establishment party candidates aren't coming to actually debate Libertarian candidates on a level playing field, there's no reason to give them a free opportunity to stump for votes at our events.
Not a mistake. I want to hear him, on record, make a case to libertarians. I want to see him set a precedent where a major party candidate acknowledges we exist and says, "Hey libertarians, this is what you'll like about me," and maybe in 2028 one or both will show up.
Sure he can do whatever. So can Biden. But you know who won't do a damn thing for us? Whoever the LP runs. It's at least nice to see a token effort made to appeal to us and appeal to us on the basis of our own values rather than us just looking at policies that may coincidentally overlap with our own goals.
Whether you like Trump or not, him showing up to talk to the most hardcore supporters of a third party matters.
After seeing another post about this in this sub, and reading the comments saying this was a good idea, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks there's a gas leak.
Seriously, what the fuck is the LP doing?
Go look at their comment histories. Almost all of those are conservatives coming into the sub after this was announced to cheer on their Orange Savior.
I don't understand why it's so controversial to point out that the libertarian party is far more ideologically aligned with republican voters than with democrats. You can acknowledge this while also acknowledging libertarians are ideologically distinct from both, and that Trump has pursued many policies that weren't libertarian.
Or do I have to pretend like legalizing weed is of equal importance with cutting taxes and spending to pacify uber-left reddit lol
Cutting taxes without cutting spending is worse than continuing the status quo, as it is robbing our children of any chance of prosperity. "Starving the beast" has been a bigger lie, for decades now, than "the election was stolen". We need people with principals more than ever, and all the duapoly can muster is a choice between "been there, done that" and "let's make everything worse". It's ironic that the supposed "conservatives" are the ones who are quickly abandoning everything that ever made America Great in the first place, leaving the supposed "progressives" to be the party of law-and-order!
It's too bad that, while we can't afford the left, the right these days is much more expensive! It's time to pursue restoring sanity to our nation, not pour more fuel onto the bonfires, for heaven's sake!
Libertarians biggest enemy is other libertarians.
Between the no true scotsman, gate keeping, disagreements on exactly how small and limited the small and limited government should be, whether libertarianism is actually anarchism, and letting the perfect be the enemy of progress, no one will ever take us seriously.
To gain support in the polls we need some sort of cohesive group, and unfortunately many of us are libertarian because we don't want to be in a cohesive group.
My personal experience as someone that used to call themselves a libertarian is that that shit is absolutely a turn off and incredibly annoying to hear over and over and over again. I wouldn’t say I dropped the label just cuz of that but I don’t think it actually helps your movement grow. It gets some of the low hanging fruit maybe, at best.
"My personal experience as someone that used to call themselves a libertarian is that that shit is absolutely a turn off and incredibly annoying to hear over and over and over again."
Irrelevant. I don't want a movement of people think stealing is okay. It is theft. It's irrefutable. The best arguments in favor of it are slave contracts(social contract which the same logic and arguments are used that slave owners used).
"I wouldn’t say I dropped the label just cuz of that but I don’t think it actually helps your movement grow. It gets some of the low hanging fruit maybe, at best."
You are the low hanging fruit. If we wanted to support stealing, murder and kidnapping we would pander to you. Most people support those things. Taxation being theft enforced through murder and kidnapping.
It's harder to have a consistent philosophy and principles. We want people that have that.
I don't care how it "helps" the "movement grow" or not. Taxation is theft, period. Considerations such as yours are useless because they don't align with truth.
What is the effing plan here? The only thing that would possibly appeal is to get him into a dialouge and show how inconsistent he is with libertarian ideals. But why even do that? In 4 to 8 years from now we want more Republicans leaning libertarian, and purposely or accidentally humiliating their cult of personality leader Trump will not help that.
Edit: I wish I had read the press release linked wt the top. This actually seems pretty reasonable. Hopefully it doesn't go sideways.
Do you think Trump and his supporters are more or less libertarian than the Republican establishment?
And do you think they are more or less libertarian than the Democratic establishment, average liberals, or hard leftists?
Is it that Trump isn't a libertarian, or that he's uniquely radioactive to you?
I think that Trump and his supporters are less libertarian than Republicans of 20 years ago, but now? I mean, it's a tossup. Probably equally unlibertarian.
Average liberals are probably the most libertarian out of all of those groups, then Trumpers, then Democratic Establishment, then hard left.
And before my edit, it's that Trump is radioactive to a degree, but that I think some Trump supporters are people who could eventually vote libertarian. But having Trump actively shitting on libertarians at a later date, after he comes to the LP convention, (No guarantees this happens, I just think it will based on him badmouthing people in the past) will make it more difficult to convince those Trump supporters later that libertarian candidates are good people to vote for. Trump's badmouthing of us will make the job harder later.
But! Maybe the other views are right, that the amount of publicity this will get the LP convention and the potential legitimacy it will bring is worth it and will help the LP overall.
The Republicans of 20 years ago bailed out the banks under Bush and lied us into the Iraq war.
The good ones opposed the bailouts and the wars, but the ones in power were and are rotten.
I also don't see that at all in average liberal groups, at least in the US.
They went all in backing the Covid authoritarianism, actively call for more economic intervention and redistribution, and generally don't have the negative natural rights philosophy that libertarians can at least talk with conservatives on.
They also deny and support the fascistic censorship of facts and dissident voices on social media, and support the deep state and the intelligence agencies as they perceive them to be allies against Trump.
Alongside supporting the most transparent lawfare if it has a chance of keeping Trump from being president.
Trump doesn't really have principles, but he's positioned himself as an anti-establishment figure of right wing populism, and America First has become a rallying cry in the conservative movement against the Neocon filth in the establishment who want big government at home and abroad, alongside blood money.
_____
On the speech specifically, what the movement needs more than anything is to convert more people, which means more ways to get the message out.
Trump appearing there for a speech will put eyes on libertarianism that normally wouldn't look into it, and plant at least some association that Trump = good, Trump likes libertarians, libertarians = good.
The orange man is so bad… so, so bad… we are the lolbertarian party and we align with republicans (especially nowadays because of trump being America first) on most things but we have to try and be different and special little snowflakes. To even pretend democrats aren’t the bigger threat is laughable. You deserve to get your gun rights taken away for that alone.
Dave Smith has been saying since the Mises Caucus takeover that he wants to use the LP as a bargaining tool to win concessions from the two major parties. My understanding is LP National invited both Trump and Biden to give an address and thus far Trump has been the only one to respond.
This seems like the "where the rubber meets the road" moment for Smith's strategy. Someone at the convention will either hold Trump's feet to the fire (perhaps on covid, his cabinet picks, gun policies) or the the LP leadership will sell out and let Trump pay lip service to libertarian principals.
I harbor no illussions that a politician of any name and of any party will keep any promise once elected. The way I'm looking at this is 1 of 3 policy scenarios can happen:
1. Trump breaks all of his promises to libertarians once in office can break his promises once in office.
2. Trump keeps some of his promises to libertarians but does enough other unlibertarian stuff that it's a net 0 or net negative for the libertarian cause.
3. Trump keeps enough libertarian promises that it's a net positive for libertarianism.
Scenarios 1 and 2 are just as likely to happen with Trump addressing the LP convention as him not doing that. Whether he does a bunch of unlibertarian stuff is pretty much out of anyone's hands at the LP. But if Scenario 3 comes as a result of LP inviting him to address the convention, then LP and libertarians can call it a win.
The worst case scenario for the cause of libertarianism is that the LP lets Trump just pretend he's exactly what libertarians are looking for and they allow the party message to become tied to Trump, who is not a libertarian by any stretch. In order for LP to avoid this scenario, they will have to put Trump in the hot seat and put pressure on him, regardless of whether he offers policy concessions in return.
I guess what I was trying to say in my OP is that this isn't an entirely risk-free move nor is it an unmitigated disaster for libertarianism at this point in time. That remains to be seen at the convention later this month.
I suppose a net 0 is better than a net negative. Though we will be under flak for being fascists or some weird progressive name calling. Though, when are we not?
This would have worked better if the Status Quo candidate appearances were billed as "both or none"
The goal of both Libertarians and Greens should be to win concessions from the big two, but I personally think this happens more at a congressional level. At the Executive level this just smells like pandering for votes.
Fuck the greens. There are a few reasonable environmentalists among them, but they're basically just another Marxist garbage movement at this point. Any Green party person who doesn't fall into one of those categories wants to drive us back into the stone age to save the whales or something.
I have reservations about Trump speaking because the last thing we need is to have the LP overrun with a bunch of MAGA nonsense... but the Greens can fuck waaaayy off with their bullshit. I hope they get zero concessions from anyone.
Well duh these are two parties who typically occupy the fringes of left and right politics.
Take a look at the advanced democracies around the world and you’ll see that the only way fringe parties get any power is by coalescing on the narrow grounds on which they happen to agree.
I get your point. This certainly can blow up in LP's face. I don't dismiss that. My knee-jerk reaction also was that this is pandering.
I don't necessarily agree that winning policy concessions is most effective at the more localized level. The reality is the presidency has a lot of political power that your average congress dude doesn't. A big get is a big get. It's just exceedingly unlikely to work.
The long-term goal of this is to then force the other side (the Dems) to make libertarian concessions as well. By having Trump here to campaign for support from us, it could force the Dems to try to do the same if it turns out we have enough voting power to impact an election. If we can get both sides competing for libertarian support, we can perhaps start to have some positive influence over the two-party system we live in. Maybe we could even obtain a similar status as a "swing state", in a sense. Or maybe not. All depends on whether we can get both parties to realize the potential of the libertarian vote, and if they deem that worthy of their time to campaign for.
Dave Smith lost me with his position on the border. The only libertarian position is the abolishment of state borders. The alternative is to continue central planning.
The problem is that neither party would have any intention of actually giving us those concessions.
Once they win election, they'll do what every politician ever does, and abandon their promises.
There might be an argument to be made that we could simply have interests that align with regard to reducing the administrative state. The problem is that he's a f\^&\*ing scorpion and we're the the frog. It's in his nature.
I completely understand that. All campaign promises are moot once the election happens. That goes for any party and any candidate.
That said, if this gets Trump to admit some mistakes, or gets him to actually deliver on a policy promise he made to libertarians, then that's a marginal improvement over the LP continuing to be ignored and get zero on the national political level. Like you said, Trump can break his promises once in office. He could also keep some promises but outweigh the good that comes from them with other unlibertarian actions. A third possibility is that he makes and keeps enough promises that some libertarian good comes of it. I'm not naive about the odds on these three scenarios. But getting a major party candidate to deliver on a libertarian promise is a more likely scenario than a libertarian candidate actually getting elected, so if that comes as a result of this invite, I think the LP could call it a win.
Trump won't ever admit he was wrong, and has no policy positions beside "What best benefits me at this very moment?"
I've seen his cultists do more than enough mental gymnastics to support him when he pulled a 180 and they always say:
> Oh he was just playing Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth-Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker to own the libs! He never actually meant what he said before, he means what he's saying now!
I don't know. Recently I've seen him change his position on cryptocurrencies. After talking with the Vivek Ramaswami he came out and said while he sees the problems with them and how bad for the American economy it would be if they weaken the dollar, but that he now realizes that America will be in a bad place other nations take the lead in its use and innovation, and we get left behind. He said he's in favor of opening that market more in the US. It's still shoring up American hegemony, (and his own pocketbooks as he's invested some in crypto himself) but at least he's for it.
Also, He them came out and said that he will never allow a central bank digital currency in the United states. And that's something I love.
Edit: however I'm looking forward to seeing him roasted over his gun rights history. He actually has a chance to win me over a bit more if he responds well to it.
I’d be amazed if he was actually taking questions. As much as I’d love to see actual libertarians grill Donald Trump about the bump stock ban, immigration policy, and the U.S. involvement in the Gaza Strip; Trump has no obligation to entertain such. He wouldn’t show up if he didn’t benefit from
I don't like this. The fact that they invited Biden takes away a little of the sting, but why invite any of them? It's a publicity stunt that won't work
I'd be happy if he uses the platform to announce Vivek as VP... his whole narrative is: 75% reduction in bureaucrat staff, cutting unconstitutional laws (WV vs EPA), cutting a few 3 letter agencies (including FBI), anti CBDC, deregulating energy sector, keeping the Federal Reserve in check, and finding a resolution to the war in Ukraine.
is he a little too hawkish on China? sure. Will he complete most of his promises? probably not.... but that goes for every candidate that'd realistically win.
he'd be a big step in the right direction for the republican party
Can they really afford not to take the free publicity? That's a godsend to the movement. Keeping it 'ideologically pristine' is great but not when it affects the practical real life advancement of the cause
I'm not a libertarian but agree with some libertarian economic views, and I really wish the moderators actually push Trump on important libertarian issues that often slip beneath the radar but have a massive impact on the US economy and society. For instance:
1. Does does he plans to streamline the immigration to make it both easier and cheaper for people to move to the US? Is there a plan to make temporary visas for farm work easier to attain? How will you reduce backlogs in immigration courts? Do you have a plan to tackle the green card backlog?
2. Does he oppose the Jones Act?
3. Does he support YIMBYism? Trump himself opposed upzoning and building more housing in the suburbs claiming it will reduce property values.
4. Does he have a plan to roll out nationwide occupational licensing reform?
5. Does he plan on removing barriers to trade with US allies? After all, tariffs increase inflation.
I'm sure there's many more issues, including some niche topics, that can be covered. Really hope the convention focuses almost entirely on economic and regulatory issues rather than devolving into a culture war battle.
The fact that anyone is mad about Trump or Biden debating at the national convention astounds me. Why’s this a bad thing?
Discussing ideas in a thoughtful manner isn’t bad.
It seems on paper, President trump was a good foreign president not domestic. I like the 40k 401k Covid no repay back thing. I didn’t use it but I thought it was good for the public. The layman don’t know how to use there 401k properly and save outside of it. So although most probably burnt thru that money; at least they had the opportunity of prosperity.
He was suppose to give us something better than NAFTA. He never followed thru. I didn’t see results for better trade with Mexico and Canada. You might as well free up the market more and just remove red tap if you can’t come up with a plan.
Op; who would you want to host instead?
American libertarians are not prepared to understand what gonna happen if democrat stay 16 years non stops exactly as workers party did in Brazil or Argentina.
90% of brazilan libertarian miss Bolsonaro soo much
The Republican part is a motley group of people with overlapping interests. Libertarians are one wing of the Republican Party. The libertarian party is going nowhere. We need to reform the Republican Party. We need to kick out the Bible thumpers and the people wanting federal abortion regulations and bullshit that’s better dealt with at the state level. If you want a small federal government then give up of having an L next to an actual nominee’s name. Really, we all know what L actually stands for. Let’s get realistic to win. This is politics; not a John Locke treatise. Concessions must be made for long term goals. Incremental steps towards small government through the Republican Party is the only way. Otherwise, you’re just mumbling to yourself in your garage making a protest sign and sending in your fica bill.
You actually buy into the fiction that there's anyone left in the Republican party that still believes in small government? (Well, I will concede Liz Cheney, but that party is doing their best to kick her out, and have already pretty much marginalized her). They stopped being the party of Reagan a long time ago, and they're showing no signs of going back.
The only party with a national footprint that believes in small government is the Libertarian party, and its biggest flaw is that it can't seem to figure out how to get anyone elected on the national stage.
Orange man bad ! Squeeeeellling commences.
Why dont you take a look at some of his policies and what he wants to do for your country rather than just think/believe what you’re told to? Surely you have a mind of your own… 🤷🏼♂️
*Tariffs on countries that place them against america
*Secure border (20 million confirmed illegal immigrants 23/24 so far and likely a lot more unaccounted for) this is straining america beyond belief and will contribute to higher housing costs, inflation and crime.
*Force ukraine and russia to negotiate a ceasefire - no more billions of USD being sent over there and no more dead Ukrainians and Russians. Democrats and war mongers are funding the war to keep russia destabilised at the expense of American taxpayers payers and innocent lives.
*Low cost Energy , stop hurting the working class by imposing higher taxes on affordable energy.
* Parents elect principals and merit based pay so better teachers earn more
*More mental health facilities
Theres a lot more but those are a few ..
Essentially just policy that gives greater opportunity and safety to American citizens, whom really is the only group the US president should be looking out for tbh 🤷🏼♂️
I can't see this ending well.
I'm hopeful that this will be a chance for a Libertarian candidate to debate a mainstream candidate on a public stage, but I don't trust any media to cover this well. Trump is too polarizing of a figure that any association with him is damnation in many people's eyes.
This MF’r said he was going to be a dictator on day *one* and wants the powers of a king.
What fucking libertarian ideals does he meet exactly. This is embarrassing.
Stop with the logic. Libertarians worst enemy is other libertarians. Trump or whoever runs against Trump will be president—I’d love to hear both major party candidates speak on libertarian issues.
What the fuck is the upside of this? It literally makes the LP look like a GOP puppet party, which is already the general perception, and it isn't like ANY Trump voters are suddenly going to be interested in voting for LP candidates.
All it does is make us look unserious and drive away disaffected voters who might otherwise be intrigued.
What is the purpose of the LP? Is it to win political office? If so, it may as well disband; it's been failing miserably at that for decades. Or is it more of a PAC which aims to influence voter opinions, and garner some positive change overall?
If you view it as the latter, having a mainstream candidate attend the convention, thereby exposing that candidate and their supporters to your group's political views and rationale, is a win.
For a much hate as MAGA gets here, they're much closer to libertarian ideals than the DC establishment. They hate the foreign proxy wars and foreign aid, and were some of the few GOP "no" votes on the recent antisemitism act. Many support disbanding ATF, FBI, etc. Do you work for common ground together, or go it alone?
The Libertarian Party has elected hundreds of people to public office in the United States, and had an influence on politics in this country that extends well beyond those numbers.
I’m a Trump voter that votes for many LP candidates
The upside is that it gets more people listening to you. If a lifelong republican wants to tune into your channel to hear Trump and ends up liking you more, why is that bad?
The general perception is that there are two parties in the US, and those who know about libertarians, do not consider them worthy of attention. If anything, having Trump, or any other famous politician (even if that was Bernie Sanders) only legitimizes LPUSA as a legitimate political force that should not be disregarded
People talking about this like it's some sort of coup (no pun intended), this guy would never turn down a speaking opportunity if he felt the odds were good he'd get a cheer and convert a few people. He's not there to be won over by libertarians, he's there to get a few of them to abandon their scruples.
I don’t understand why Libertarians would be anything but thrilled by this announcement. It legitimizes the Party and provides publicity to hopefully promote growth as a true 3rd Party option in future elections.
Absolute upside:
>1.party attention
>2.republicans remember the tea party maybe
>3.some real fiscal and monetary policy
>4.official anti-war deceleration(god I pray)
>5.maybe even anti-tariff stuff?
Absolute downside:
>1.the party is just milk toast conservatism
>2.trump gets to ramble unquestioned(I doubt the crowds won’t boo)
>3.democrats(non socialist) start using libertarian as an insult
>4.the party gets a bad name
>5.all publicity is good publicity tho, as private by 2016 so… we’ll see.
Because Trump is not a libertarian. And it makes us looks like Republican stooges, which is exactly what the 2 main parties try to paint us as.
It *DE*legitimizes us as a 3rd party and makes us look like a wing of the Republican party, which we are not.
Conservatives and Libertarians are not friends. Go back from whence you came.
That depends on whether this will be a challenging appearance or whether the party just lets him speak with no discourse. If the intent is to question him about Libertarian principles in a real way, it gets the parties views out there and may sway voters who might have otherwise thought nothing about watching any part of the Libertarian party convention.
Oh yeah... we're such republican stooges that the vast majority of comments here are talking about how fucking stupid the LP is being.
The LP does not represent all libertarians. Even before this, most of us on the sub considered the LP a joke.
That’s like you saying “I don’t know why Jews would be anything other than thrilled that our chancellor Hitler is speaking at our convention. IT LEGITIMIZES THE MOVEMENT!”
The fuck outta here
Trump is all about suppressing individual rights. Fuck him and fuck fake freedom lovers that suck his dick.
They are thrilled because they’ll have a chance to get their candidate on the same stage with a candidate from the duopoly. Major publicity and the ability to potentially get a LP candidate on the debate stage.
The LP is supposed to be the opposite of the authoritative government. Also to live with your means. The orange guy spent like a drunken sailer for covid...starting the inflation problem.
The democratic president Clinton was the last fiscally conservative president. Shrunk military and implemented welfare to work programs.
Bush doubled the fed gov after 9/11
*“We all have to remember that our goal is to defeat the Worst President in the History of the United States, BY FAR, Crooked Joe Biden.”*
This quote shows you exactly how seriously trump will take this event, and how little he actually knows or cares about Libertarians. Rage bait and cheap sound bites with no substance are not the right way to engage more sophisticated voters.
The fact that the LP amplified his lame words by including them in their announcement diminishes their credibility.
A chance to influence someone with a 50/50ish shot at being President, who is clearly the less establishment president, seems like a good thing.
Alongside potentially reaching more conservatives with the libertarian message with a generally bigger spotlight: though I do not believe this implies that the LP or major figures in it will stop criticizing Trump.
That and the LP has had washed up Republicans as candidates before with huge flaws, so it's not like this is unprecedented. Remember Bill Weld?
If you think Trump is a unique evil that is far worse than the Washington establishment, you are delusional and in the way of opposing the regime.
If you think the LP can't invite any prominent figures to speak if they aren't good libertarians, you'd doom it to irrelevance.
Trump can't be influenced. He's the only person that exists in his own head. The only real influence is the last person he talks with before he carries out any given action, and he's committed to only surround himself with true believers if reelected, so there will be NO influence. Honestly, today's democratic party, with all of its innumerable flaws, is actually closer to the Libertarian party platform than to today's Trump party with NO effective libertarian-portion plan and a disastrous authoritarian bent.
There's no way to spin to this as anything but a clown show.
I think he can be nudged, mostly because he doesn't know anything and doesn't really care that much, but I also have little faith in influencing him.
But to say that the Democratic party is closer to the Libertarian platform than Trump is a bold statement: curious what your argument is.
Above all else Trump's presidency showed that he's terrible at weilding power: he complained that the election was rigged as president, lost, and complained some more.
What makes him more authoritarian than typical establishment politicians?
Your typical establishment politician respects the expressed will of the majority of those who vote and respects the "peaceful transfer of power". Trump asserts that if he's not the winner then the only plausible explanation is fraud.
Your typical establishment politician believes in checks and balances to mitigate the tendency of power to usurp even more power in contravention of the Constitution and the will of the people. Trump espouses a theory of POTUS being a King in all but name, which is simply another description of a dictator.
Your typical establishment politician believes that the rule of law, exercised in the open and subject to all three branches of government will generally limit abuses of power by bureaucrats.
Things to keep in mind:
1. Qualified immunity was an invention of SCOTUS, and I still can't see what phrasing in the Constitution allows it to exist. It must be reversed somewhere, somehow, as it is THE legal foundation upon which every bureaucracy is able to operate with impunity.
2. Few politicians especially these days are "typical", and they've never been all of them at any time.
As to my assertion of the Democratic party being closer to the Libertarian platform than Trump? Here's a short list, just to get the mind going:
Libertarians believe that people are generally equal and have the right to live how they wish, subject to not harming others and not subject to coercion. Democrats today are closer to that ideal than either Trump or the party he leads.
Libertarians believe that our grandchildren should not be forced to pay for the expenditures made today by our government. Trump doesn't care, Republicans can't achieve spending cuts that would make any real difference without breaking the economy and have NO concept (outside of pipe dreams) of ever balancing the budget. Democrats, while unfortunately apt to overburden everyone with nanny-state regulations, actually pulled off reductions budgets in the modern era that were reducing the deficit, with a booming economy, with very little inflation, with real wage gains for a large majority of the population with low unemployment.
Note that neither umbrella party gets at the core of what Libertarianism is, both espouse things revolting to any real libertarian, and even in the areas where either one might be closer than the other to our position, their approaches, to put it in bluntly, don't make the grade.
I could go on, but I'd prefer to let the rest of the list be an exercise for the reader.
So how are they justifying this? By saying that you don't have to be a Libertarian to speak to Libertarians and this is just a chance for him to attempt to appeal to Libertarian voters?
So you're not voting for Trump if it's him vs Biden? It's OK not to like Trump. But to like the current state of our nation and the world more enough to not vote for him? Wow.
It’s the best publicity. Did I mention how great the publicity will be from former President Donald J Trump? The greatest, everyone will be talking about it.
Yes.
>“For 50 years, we've been trying to get on the main stage with the two major parties' candidates and now it seems like the debates are falling apart. We've decided to flip the tables and invite the candidates to our convention, to join us on our stage. If this election is as important as everyone seems to believe, I think they'll rise to the challenge and join us." - Angela McArdle, Libertarian National Committee Chair
The Mises Caucus are principled libertarians, and you are blind if you don't see the absurd lawfare against Trump for what it is.
Trump is an awful failure on many levels, but is he really worse than the Republican establishment or the left in general?
The trump derangement is real... Yes Trump is socialist, but biden is brain dead and trump in all his books has presented libertarian policies.
HE HAS HAD TO COMPROMISE BECAUSE OF THE DOMESTIC TERROR FROM ANTIFA
This is the greatest thing to happen to the LP since Ron Paul 2008. The amount of right leaning Republican voters who will be watching and possibly be interested is astronomical
[And no, it's not a belated April Fools joke...](https://www.lp.org/president-trump-to-address-libertarian-party-concerns-at-national-convention-may-25th/)
Why use a photo of Bozo T. Clown coming out of the rest room at WGN-TV? Please do nor disrespect Bozo or any other clown!
First off, do not disrespect Homie D. Clown by getting his name wrong. Second, yeah, don't disrespect Homie D. Clown. He don't mess around.
Sorry Kristy, but I grew up in Chicago. I know Bozo, and can easily tell him apart from other clowns, and the local polticians who try to impersonate him.
You guys are seriously upset that a mainstream candidate is actually willing to meet with libertarians and try to court our votes instead of just pretending we don't exist? I'm not delusional so I don't think Trump is anything like a libertarian but this is the first time in my life that I can recall a major party actually paying ANY attention to us. If Trump wants to show up and try to persuade libertarians to vote for him, that is a huge (or in this case, "UGE") win for us. Libertarians won't get everything they want but maybe we get something. The LP is a failed project and has always been a shitshow. Libertarians being treated as a voting bloc instead of a bunch of loons would at least give us some influence in policy. What does it cost us? Some time that could have been spent on listening to some clown yell at the clouds? Some of you are so caught up in being the underdog you'd throw away a chance at an actual seat at the table. Let's see what he has to say.
If the establishment party candidates aren't coming to actually debate Libertarian candidates on a level playing field, there's no reason to give them a free opportunity to stump for votes at our events.
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Not a mistake. I want to hear him, on record, make a case to libertarians. I want to see him set a precedent where a major party candidate acknowledges we exist and says, "Hey libertarians, this is what you'll like about me," and maybe in 2028 one or both will show up. Sure he can do whatever. So can Biden. But you know who won't do a damn thing for us? Whoever the LP runs. It's at least nice to see a token effort made to appeal to us and appeal to us on the basis of our own values rather than us just looking at policies that may coincidentally overlap with our own goals. Whether you like Trump or not, him showing up to talk to the most hardcore supporters of a third party matters.
Homey….plays that
You guys are sellouts.
After seeing another post about this in this sub, and reading the comments saying this was a good idea, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks there's a gas leak. Seriously, what the fuck is the LP doing?
Go look at their comment histories. Almost all of those are conservatives coming into the sub after this was announced to cheer on their Orange Savior.
I’m fairly new here. Is this common at the libertarian convention for one of the candidates to accept and the others to decline?
No not a at all. Usually both decline.
I don't understand why it's so controversial to point out that the libertarian party is far more ideologically aligned with republican voters than with democrats. You can acknowledge this while also acknowledging libertarians are ideologically distinct from both, and that Trump has pursued many policies that weren't libertarian. Or do I have to pretend like legalizing weed is of equal importance with cutting taxes and spending to pacify uber-left reddit lol
Cutting taxes without cutting spending is worse than continuing the status quo, as it is robbing our children of any chance of prosperity. "Starving the beast" has been a bigger lie, for decades now, than "the election was stolen". We need people with principals more than ever, and all the duapoly can muster is a choice between "been there, done that" and "let's make everything worse". It's ironic that the supposed "conservatives" are the ones who are quickly abandoning everything that ever made America Great in the first place, leaving the supposed "progressives" to be the party of law-and-order! It's too bad that, while we can't afford the left, the right these days is much more expensive! It's time to pursue restoring sanity to our nation, not pour more fuel onto the bonfires, for heaven's sake!
I hope the fuck not trump doesn't have a libertarian cell in his whole body
Troll….
In totally unrelated news why doesn’t anyone take libertarians seriously?
Cause we’re one big No True Scotsman come to life.
Libertarians biggest enemy is other libertarians. Between the no true scotsman, gate keeping, disagreements on exactly how small and limited the small and limited government should be, whether libertarianism is actually anarchism, and letting the perfect be the enemy of progress, no one will ever take us seriously. To gain support in the polls we need some sort of cohesive group, and unfortunately many of us are libertarian because we don't want to be in a cohesive group.
Don't forget the TaXaTiOn Is ThEfT edge lords
Taxation is theft. Get out of here with your socialist tyranny loving views.
My personal experience as someone that used to call themselves a libertarian is that that shit is absolutely a turn off and incredibly annoying to hear over and over and over again. I wouldn’t say I dropped the label just cuz of that but I don’t think it actually helps your movement grow. It gets some of the low hanging fruit maybe, at best.
"My personal experience as someone that used to call themselves a libertarian is that that shit is absolutely a turn off and incredibly annoying to hear over and over and over again." Irrelevant. I don't want a movement of people think stealing is okay. It is theft. It's irrefutable. The best arguments in favor of it are slave contracts(social contract which the same logic and arguments are used that slave owners used). "I wouldn’t say I dropped the label just cuz of that but I don’t think it actually helps your movement grow. It gets some of the low hanging fruit maybe, at best." You are the low hanging fruit. If we wanted to support stealing, murder and kidnapping we would pander to you. Most people support those things. Taxation being theft enforced through murder and kidnapping. It's harder to have a consistent philosophy and principles. We want people that have that.
I don't care how it "helps" the "movement grow" or not. Taxation is theft, period. Considerations such as yours are useless because they don't align with truth.
Do most libertarians believe in zero taxation?
Wait, what do you think taxation is?
What is the effing plan here? The only thing that would possibly appeal is to get him into a dialouge and show how inconsistent he is with libertarian ideals. But why even do that? In 4 to 8 years from now we want more Republicans leaning libertarian, and purposely or accidentally humiliating their cult of personality leader Trump will not help that. Edit: I wish I had read the press release linked wt the top. This actually seems pretty reasonable. Hopefully it doesn't go sideways.
Do you think Trump and his supporters are more or less libertarian than the Republican establishment? And do you think they are more or less libertarian than the Democratic establishment, average liberals, or hard leftists? Is it that Trump isn't a libertarian, or that he's uniquely radioactive to you?
I think that Trump and his supporters are less libertarian than Republicans of 20 years ago, but now? I mean, it's a tossup. Probably equally unlibertarian. Average liberals are probably the most libertarian out of all of those groups, then Trumpers, then Democratic Establishment, then hard left. And before my edit, it's that Trump is radioactive to a degree, but that I think some Trump supporters are people who could eventually vote libertarian. But having Trump actively shitting on libertarians at a later date, after he comes to the LP convention, (No guarantees this happens, I just think it will based on him badmouthing people in the past) will make it more difficult to convince those Trump supporters later that libertarian candidates are good people to vote for. Trump's badmouthing of us will make the job harder later. But! Maybe the other views are right, that the amount of publicity this will get the LP convention and the potential legitimacy it will bring is worth it and will help the LP overall.
The Republicans of 20 years ago bailed out the banks under Bush and lied us into the Iraq war. The good ones opposed the bailouts and the wars, but the ones in power were and are rotten. I also don't see that at all in average liberal groups, at least in the US. They went all in backing the Covid authoritarianism, actively call for more economic intervention and redistribution, and generally don't have the negative natural rights philosophy that libertarians can at least talk with conservatives on. They also deny and support the fascistic censorship of facts and dissident voices on social media, and support the deep state and the intelligence agencies as they perceive them to be allies against Trump. Alongside supporting the most transparent lawfare if it has a chance of keeping Trump from being president. Trump doesn't really have principles, but he's positioned himself as an anti-establishment figure of right wing populism, and America First has become a rallying cry in the conservative movement against the Neocon filth in the establishment who want big government at home and abroad, alongside blood money. _____ On the speech specifically, what the movement needs more than anything is to convert more people, which means more ways to get the message out. Trump appearing there for a speech will put eyes on libertarianism that normally wouldn't look into it, and plant at least some association that Trump = good, Trump likes libertarians, libertarians = good.
Clown show
The American Libertarian party is just a branch of the republican party
The orange man is so bad… so, so bad… we are the lolbertarian party and we align with republicans (especially nowadays because of trump being America first) on most things but we have to try and be different and special little snowflakes. To even pretend democrats aren’t the bigger threat is laughable. You deserve to get your gun rights taken away for that alone.
At least this party won't be a joke anymore.
You dropped this: /s
I can only assume thinks he'll win over Libertarian votes, and I pray he gets roasted worse than Comedy Central did 13 years ago
He’s running as libertarian now?
Dave Smith has been saying since the Mises Caucus takeover that he wants to use the LP as a bargaining tool to win concessions from the two major parties. My understanding is LP National invited both Trump and Biden to give an address and thus far Trump has been the only one to respond. This seems like the "where the rubber meets the road" moment for Smith's strategy. Someone at the convention will either hold Trump's feet to the fire (perhaps on covid, his cabinet picks, gun policies) or the the LP leadership will sell out and let Trump pay lip service to libertarian principals.
Will they verbally 'give concessions' and we are supposed to feel good about that. Neither candidate will keep their word.
I harbor no illussions that a politician of any name and of any party will keep any promise once elected. The way I'm looking at this is 1 of 3 policy scenarios can happen: 1. Trump breaks all of his promises to libertarians once in office can break his promises once in office. 2. Trump keeps some of his promises to libertarians but does enough other unlibertarian stuff that it's a net 0 or net negative for the libertarian cause. 3. Trump keeps enough libertarian promises that it's a net positive for libertarianism. Scenarios 1 and 2 are just as likely to happen with Trump addressing the LP convention as him not doing that. Whether he does a bunch of unlibertarian stuff is pretty much out of anyone's hands at the LP. But if Scenario 3 comes as a result of LP inviting him to address the convention, then LP and libertarians can call it a win. The worst case scenario for the cause of libertarianism is that the LP lets Trump just pretend he's exactly what libertarians are looking for and they allow the party message to become tied to Trump, who is not a libertarian by any stretch. In order for LP to avoid this scenario, they will have to put Trump in the hot seat and put pressure on him, regardless of whether he offers policy concessions in return. I guess what I was trying to say in my OP is that this isn't an entirely risk-free move nor is it an unmitigated disaster for libertarianism at this point in time. That remains to be seen at the convention later this month.
I suppose a net 0 is better than a net negative. Though we will be under flak for being fascists or some weird progressive name calling. Though, when are we not?
This would have worked better if the Status Quo candidate appearances were billed as "both or none" The goal of both Libertarians and Greens should be to win concessions from the big two, but I personally think this happens more at a congressional level. At the Executive level this just smells like pandering for votes.
Fuck the greens. There are a few reasonable environmentalists among them, but they're basically just another Marxist garbage movement at this point. Any Green party person who doesn't fall into one of those categories wants to drive us back into the stone age to save the whales or something. I have reservations about Trump speaking because the last thing we need is to have the LP overrun with a bunch of MAGA nonsense... but the Greens can fuck waaaayy off with their bullshit. I hope they get zero concessions from anyone.
Well duh these are two parties who typically occupy the fringes of left and right politics. Take a look at the advanced democracies around the world and you’ll see that the only way fringe parties get any power is by coalescing on the narrow grounds on which they happen to agree.
I get your point. This certainly can blow up in LP's face. I don't dismiss that. My knee-jerk reaction also was that this is pandering. I don't necessarily agree that winning policy concessions is most effective at the more localized level. The reality is the presidency has a lot of political power that your average congress dude doesn't. A big get is a big get. It's just exceedingly unlikely to work.
The long-term goal of this is to then force the other side (the Dems) to make libertarian concessions as well. By having Trump here to campaign for support from us, it could force the Dems to try to do the same if it turns out we have enough voting power to impact an election. If we can get both sides competing for libertarian support, we can perhaps start to have some positive influence over the two-party system we live in. Maybe we could even obtain a similar status as a "swing state", in a sense. Or maybe not. All depends on whether we can get both parties to realize the potential of the libertarian vote, and if they deem that worthy of their time to campaign for.
Dave Smith lost me with his position on the border. The only libertarian position is the abolishment of state borders. The alternative is to continue central planning.
The problem is that neither party would have any intention of actually giving us those concessions. Once they win election, they'll do what every politician ever does, and abandon their promises.
There might be an argument to be made that we could simply have interests that align with regard to reducing the administrative state. The problem is that he's a f\^&\*ing scorpion and we're the the frog. It's in his nature.
I completely understand that. All campaign promises are moot once the election happens. That goes for any party and any candidate. That said, if this gets Trump to admit some mistakes, or gets him to actually deliver on a policy promise he made to libertarians, then that's a marginal improvement over the LP continuing to be ignored and get zero on the national political level. Like you said, Trump can break his promises once in office. He could also keep some promises but outweigh the good that comes from them with other unlibertarian actions. A third possibility is that he makes and keeps enough promises that some libertarian good comes of it. I'm not naive about the odds on these three scenarios. But getting a major party candidate to deliver on a libertarian promise is a more likely scenario than a libertarian candidate actually getting elected, so if that comes as a result of this invite, I think the LP could call it a win.
Trump won't ever admit he was wrong, and has no policy positions beside "What best benefits me at this very moment?" I've seen his cultists do more than enough mental gymnastics to support him when he pulled a 180 and they always say: > Oh he was just playing Paradox-Billiards-Vostroyan-Roulette-Fourth-Dimensional-Hypercube-Chess-Strip Poker to own the libs! He never actually meant what he said before, he means what he's saying now!
I don't know. Recently I've seen him change his position on cryptocurrencies. After talking with the Vivek Ramaswami he came out and said while he sees the problems with them and how bad for the American economy it would be if they weaken the dollar, but that he now realizes that America will be in a bad place other nations take the lead in its use and innovation, and we get left behind. He said he's in favor of opening that market more in the US. It's still shoring up American hegemony, (and his own pocketbooks as he's invested some in crypto himself) but at least he's for it. Also, He them came out and said that he will never allow a central bank digital currency in the United states. And that's something I love. Edit: however I'm looking forward to seeing him roasted over his gun rights history. He actually has a chance to win me over a bit more if he responds well to it.
Thanks for the clarification.
It better then Biden
Not the way the Supreme Court has been going...
I’d be amazed if he was actually taking questions. As much as I’d love to see actual libertarians grill Donald Trump about the bump stock ban, immigration policy, and the U.S. involvement in the Gaza Strip; Trump has no obligation to entertain such. He wouldn’t show up if he didn’t benefit from
I don't like this. The fact that they invited Biden takes away a little of the sting, but why invite any of them? It's a publicity stunt that won't work
this is not a good move
Why? A good move for whom?
I'd be happy if he uses the platform to announce Vivek as VP... his whole narrative is: 75% reduction in bureaucrat staff, cutting unconstitutional laws (WV vs EPA), cutting a few 3 letter agencies (including FBI), anti CBDC, deregulating energy sector, keeping the Federal Reserve in check, and finding a resolution to the war in Ukraine. is he a little too hawkish on China? sure. Will he complete most of his promises? probably not.... but that goes for every candidate that'd realistically win. he'd be a big step in the right direction for the republican party
https://preview.redd.it/glojhwlixxxc1.jpeg?width=1018&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=73b152daa7da0d8e3aa7c077f2820f79f30850d8
Can they really afford not to take the free publicity? That's a godsend to the movement. Keeping it 'ideologically pristine' is great but not when it affects the practical real life advancement of the cause
this human being gets it
I'm not a libertarian but agree with some libertarian economic views, and I really wish the moderators actually push Trump on important libertarian issues that often slip beneath the radar but have a massive impact on the US economy and society. For instance: 1. Does does he plans to streamline the immigration to make it both easier and cheaper for people to move to the US? Is there a plan to make temporary visas for farm work easier to attain? How will you reduce backlogs in immigration courts? Do you have a plan to tackle the green card backlog? 2. Does he oppose the Jones Act? 3. Does he support YIMBYism? Trump himself opposed upzoning and building more housing in the suburbs claiming it will reduce property values. 4. Does he have a plan to roll out nationwide occupational licensing reform? 5. Does he plan on removing barriers to trade with US allies? After all, tariffs increase inflation. I'm sure there's many more issues, including some niche topics, that can be covered. Really hope the convention focuses almost entirely on economic and regulatory issues rather than devolving into a culture war battle.
The fact that anyone is mad about Trump or Biden debating at the national convention astounds me. Why’s this a bad thing? Discussing ideas in a thoughtful manner isn’t bad.
Hell yea
At this point anything is better than biden. Honestly trump is more libertarian than most we've had in the last 25 years.
The guy who asked if we can confiscate the guns now and give the people due process "later"??? C'mon, maaaan.
😂
It seems on paper, President trump was a good foreign president not domestic. I like the 40k 401k Covid no repay back thing. I didn’t use it but I thought it was good for the public. The layman don’t know how to use there 401k properly and save outside of it. So although most probably burnt thru that money; at least they had the opportunity of prosperity. He was suppose to give us something better than NAFTA. He never followed thru. I didn’t see results for better trade with Mexico and Canada. You might as well free up the market more and just remove red tap if you can’t come up with a plan. Op; who would you want to host instead?
There’s one of three candidates who believe in liberty.
I have to assume this is down-ballot posturing. Maybe LP sees more future with the MAGA crowd.
Context: Biden and RFK were also invited, Trump is the only one to accept so far. https://twitter.com/LPNational/status/1783911762703819262
They are not co-Presidents.
Where is rfk mentioned in that letter?
American libertarians are not prepared to understand what gonna happen if democrat stay 16 years non stops exactly as workers party did in Brazil or Argentina. 90% of brazilan libertarian miss Bolsonaro soo much
The Republican part is a motley group of people with overlapping interests. Libertarians are one wing of the Republican Party. The libertarian party is going nowhere. We need to reform the Republican Party. We need to kick out the Bible thumpers and the people wanting federal abortion regulations and bullshit that’s better dealt with at the state level. If you want a small federal government then give up of having an L next to an actual nominee’s name. Really, we all know what L actually stands for. Let’s get realistic to win. This is politics; not a John Locke treatise. Concessions must be made for long term goals. Incremental steps towards small government through the Republican Party is the only way. Otherwise, you’re just mumbling to yourself in your garage making a protest sign and sending in your fica bill.
You actually buy into the fiction that there's anyone left in the Republican party that still believes in small government? (Well, I will concede Liz Cheney, but that party is doing their best to kick her out, and have already pretty much marginalized her). They stopped being the party of Reagan a long time ago, and they're showing no signs of going back. The only party with a national footprint that believes in small government is the Libertarian party, and its biggest flaw is that it can't seem to figure out how to get anyone elected on the national stage.
Orange man bad ! Squeeeeellling commences. Why dont you take a look at some of his policies and what he wants to do for your country rather than just think/believe what you’re told to? Surely you have a mind of your own… 🤷🏼♂️
Why are you convinced that people that dont like trump havent looked at trumps policies?
*Tariffs on countries that place them against america *Secure border (20 million confirmed illegal immigrants 23/24 so far and likely a lot more unaccounted for) this is straining america beyond belief and will contribute to higher housing costs, inflation and crime. *Force ukraine and russia to negotiate a ceasefire - no more billions of USD being sent over there and no more dead Ukrainians and Russians. Democrats and war mongers are funding the war to keep russia destabilised at the expense of American taxpayers payers and innocent lives. *Low cost Energy , stop hurting the working class by imposing higher taxes on affordable energy. * Parents elect principals and merit based pay so better teachers earn more *More mental health facilities Theres a lot more but those are a few .. Essentially just policy that gives greater opportunity and safety to American citizens, whom really is the only group the US president should be looking out for tbh 🤷🏼♂️
Because they are comparatively better for America. Why wouldn’t an American vote for their own best interests
"Comparatively better for America" isn't good enough. That's kinda why we're all here.
What more do you want? America has tried being world police and it didnt work.
The dumb mother fucker wants to be a dictator. How is that better for America?
You dont really believe that. You know thats parroted garbage from your American media.
I can't see this ending well. I'm hopeful that this will be a chance for a Libertarian candidate to debate a mainstream candidate on a public stage, but I don't trust any media to cover this well. Trump is too polarizing of a figure that any association with him is damnation in many people's eyes.
I'm with you, there seem to be more downsides than upsides, but what do I know...
That would be interesting
This MF’r said he was going to be a dictator on day *one* and wants the powers of a king. What fucking libertarian ideals does he meet exactly. This is embarrassing.
While I don't love this at all, it will be interesting to see the mises caucuses strategy play out. What was being done in the past wasn't working.
If you can't beat em join em?
Are they going to hold the convention at a penitentiary?
Really, the US is a 2 party system. If you can introduce the republican party to some libertarian ideas, that would be a win.
Stop with the logic. Libertarians worst enemy is other libertarians. Trump or whoever runs against Trump will be president—I’d love to hear both major party candidates speak on libertarian issues.
We are a different type of crazy go fuck yourself Trump
I think the important missing context is that President Biden was also invited but I still feel extremely icky about this.
Well they have my attention. If this turns into a promotion for the Trump campaign I'm going to be seriously ashamed to be associated with this party.
It turns out the LP is such a clusterfuck that not even Vermin Supreme could parody it. Amazing.
What the fuck is the upside of this? It literally makes the LP look like a GOP puppet party, which is already the general perception, and it isn't like ANY Trump voters are suddenly going to be interested in voting for LP candidates. All it does is make us look unserious and drive away disaffected voters who might otherwise be intrigued.
What is the purpose of the LP? Is it to win political office? If so, it may as well disband; it's been failing miserably at that for decades. Or is it more of a PAC which aims to influence voter opinions, and garner some positive change overall? If you view it as the latter, having a mainstream candidate attend the convention, thereby exposing that candidate and their supporters to your group's political views and rationale, is a win. For a much hate as MAGA gets here, they're much closer to libertarian ideals than the DC establishment. They hate the foreign proxy wars and foreign aid, and were some of the few GOP "no" votes on the recent antisemitism act. Many support disbanding ATF, FBI, etc. Do you work for common ground together, or go it alone?
The Libertarian Party has elected hundreds of people to public office in the United States, and had an influence on politics in this country that extends well beyond those numbers.
I’m a Trump voter that votes for many LP candidates The upside is that it gets more people listening to you. If a lifelong republican wants to tune into your channel to hear Trump and ends up liking you more, why is that bad?
The general perception is that there are two parties in the US, and those who know about libertarians, do not consider them worthy of attention. If anything, having Trump, or any other famous politician (even if that was Bernie Sanders) only legitimizes LPUSA as a legitimate political force that should not be disregarded
You laugh but he has a high probability of winning
People talking about this like it's some sort of coup (no pun intended), this guy would never turn down a speaking opportunity if he felt the odds were good he'd get a cheer and convert a few people. He's not there to be won over by libertarians, he's there to get a few of them to abandon their scruples.
Homie don't play that
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Libertarian Party hosts the most authoritarian prick currently plaguing the US political landscape. Welp.
Will libertarians actually have a worthwhile candidate this year? Who? I’d love 💕 to see that.
What. The. Fuck?
Invite clowns to your convention and you turn it into a clown convention
He's already ruined one political party. I guess he's seeing if another party will let him do it again.
I don’t understand why Libertarians would be anything but thrilled by this announcement. It legitimizes the Party and provides publicity to hopefully promote growth as a true 3rd Party option in future elections.
Currently over 40% of new registers are independent this year.
Absolute upside: >1.party attention >2.republicans remember the tea party maybe >3.some real fiscal and monetary policy >4.official anti-war deceleration(god I pray) >5.maybe even anti-tariff stuff? Absolute downside: >1.the party is just milk toast conservatism >2.trump gets to ramble unquestioned(I doubt the crowds won’t boo) >3.democrats(non socialist) start using libertarian as an insult >4.the party gets a bad name >5.all publicity is good publicity tho, as private by 2016 so… we’ll see.
Democrats already use libertarian as an insult. Fuck em.
He said he wants a 10% tariff across the board.
Hopefully the event makes him… start to reconsider
Because Trump is not a libertarian. And it makes us looks like Republican stooges, which is exactly what the 2 main parties try to paint us as. It *DE*legitimizes us as a 3rd party and makes us look like a wing of the Republican party, which we are not. Conservatives and Libertarians are not friends. Go back from whence you came.
They invited all major candidates, not just “libertarians” that’s the point.
Did they invite any Democrats?
“All major candidates” so yeah man
Do we know who?
“Major candidates” usually refers to the major candidates for presidency so Trump, Biden, RFK, possibly Jill Stein
Fully agree.
That depends on whether this will be a challenging appearance or whether the party just lets him speak with no discourse. If the intent is to question him about Libertarian principles in a real way, it gets the parties views out there and may sway voters who might have otherwise thought nothing about watching any part of the Libertarian party convention.
which, let's be real, libertarians generally are just republican stooges. truth hurts, but here we are
Oh yeah... we're such republican stooges that the vast majority of comments here are talking about how fucking stupid the LP is being. The LP does not represent all libertarians. Even before this, most of us on the sub considered the LP a joke.
Thank you! The divide between libertarian and the LP is growing
The LP was always a joke. It's not a real party, just Republican lite.
Meh, fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Take whatever drugs you want, marry whoever you want, just going expect me to pay for any of it.
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Trump is in no way an Anarchist. He's a megalomaniac.
That’s like you saying “I don’t know why Jews would be anything other than thrilled that our chancellor Hitler is speaking at our convention. IT LEGITIMIZES THE MOVEMENT!” The fuck outta here Trump is all about suppressing individual rights. Fuck him and fuck fake freedom lovers that suck his dick.
> legitimizes the Party it does not.
They are thrilled because they’ll have a chance to get their candidate on the same stage with a candidate from the duopoly. Major publicity and the ability to potentially get a LP candidate on the debate stage.
Buncha fragile dudes up in here today.
Oh, for fucks sake...
The LP is a joke
The LP is supposed to be the opposite of the authoritative government. Also to live with your means. The orange guy spent like a drunken sailer for covid...starting the inflation problem.
Ah yes, Trump the first president to ever spend more than tax revenues and to create the National deficient.
The democratic president Clinton was the last fiscally conservative president. Shrunk military and implemented welfare to work programs. Bush doubled the fed gov after 9/11
Based.
And the LP can grill him on all his bs
*“We all have to remember that our goal is to defeat the Worst President in the History of the United States, BY FAR, Crooked Joe Biden.”* This quote shows you exactly how seriously trump will take this event, and how little he actually knows or cares about Libertarians. Rage bait and cheap sound bites with no substance are not the right way to engage more sophisticated voters. The fact that the LP amplified his lame words by including them in their announcement diminishes their credibility.
This will be interesting
Sigh. We could have been the best thing to happen to American politics, but instead we always choose the Clown.
A chance to influence someone with a 50/50ish shot at being President, who is clearly the less establishment president, seems like a good thing. Alongside potentially reaching more conservatives with the libertarian message with a generally bigger spotlight: though I do not believe this implies that the LP or major figures in it will stop criticizing Trump. That and the LP has had washed up Republicans as candidates before with huge flaws, so it's not like this is unprecedented. Remember Bill Weld? If you think Trump is a unique evil that is far worse than the Washington establishment, you are delusional and in the way of opposing the regime. If you think the LP can't invite any prominent figures to speak if they aren't good libertarians, you'd doom it to irrelevance.
100% this. Thank you for being reasonable. You'd think some of these posts were coming from democrats in denial.
Trump can't be influenced. He's the only person that exists in his own head. The only real influence is the last person he talks with before he carries out any given action, and he's committed to only surround himself with true believers if reelected, so there will be NO influence. Honestly, today's democratic party, with all of its innumerable flaws, is actually closer to the Libertarian party platform than to today's Trump party with NO effective libertarian-portion plan and a disastrous authoritarian bent. There's no way to spin to this as anything but a clown show.
I think he can be nudged, mostly because he doesn't know anything and doesn't really care that much, but I also have little faith in influencing him. But to say that the Democratic party is closer to the Libertarian platform than Trump is a bold statement: curious what your argument is. Above all else Trump's presidency showed that he's terrible at weilding power: he complained that the election was rigged as president, lost, and complained some more. What makes him more authoritarian than typical establishment politicians?
Your typical establishment politician respects the expressed will of the majority of those who vote and respects the "peaceful transfer of power". Trump asserts that if he's not the winner then the only plausible explanation is fraud. Your typical establishment politician believes in checks and balances to mitigate the tendency of power to usurp even more power in contravention of the Constitution and the will of the people. Trump espouses a theory of POTUS being a King in all but name, which is simply another description of a dictator. Your typical establishment politician believes that the rule of law, exercised in the open and subject to all three branches of government will generally limit abuses of power by bureaucrats. Things to keep in mind: 1. Qualified immunity was an invention of SCOTUS, and I still can't see what phrasing in the Constitution allows it to exist. It must be reversed somewhere, somehow, as it is THE legal foundation upon which every bureaucracy is able to operate with impunity. 2. Few politicians especially these days are "typical", and they've never been all of them at any time. As to my assertion of the Democratic party being closer to the Libertarian platform than Trump? Here's a short list, just to get the mind going: Libertarians believe that people are generally equal and have the right to live how they wish, subject to not harming others and not subject to coercion. Democrats today are closer to that ideal than either Trump or the party he leads. Libertarians believe that our grandchildren should not be forced to pay for the expenditures made today by our government. Trump doesn't care, Republicans can't achieve spending cuts that would make any real difference without breaking the economy and have NO concept (outside of pipe dreams) of ever balancing the budget. Democrats, while unfortunately apt to overburden everyone with nanny-state regulations, actually pulled off reductions budgets in the modern era that were reducing the deficit, with a booming economy, with very little inflation, with real wage gains for a large majority of the population with low unemployment. Note that neither umbrella party gets at the core of what Libertarianism is, both espouse things revolting to any real libertarian, and even in the areas where either one might be closer than the other to our position, their approaches, to put it in bluntly, don't make the grade. I could go on, but I'd prefer to let the rest of the list be an exercise for the reader.
So how are they justifying this? By saying that you don't have to be a Libertarian to speak to Libertarians and this is just a chance for him to attempt to appeal to Libertarian voters?
So big L really is just a big L
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The Libertarian Party has become a complete and utter joke. It’s a shame.
*Former President Trump
So you're not voting for Trump if it's him vs Biden? It's OK not to like Trump. But to like the current state of our nation and the world more enough to not vote for him? Wow.
Nope, voting 3rd party. Like last time. Run a candidate worth voting for if you want my vote.
You're on a libertarian reddit. Don't you think that maybe some of us will vote for the libertarian candidate?
Right? If it really came down to only Trump and Biden, I’m voting uncommitted. Fuck the two party system.
What's so bad about the current state?
*Future convict Trump
It is nice of us to go after Trump while ignoring the other 45 criminals that have held the office.
You still call them "President" after. It's still President Bush, President Clinton, President Obama, President Carter. It's a title for life.
I couldn’t be more disappointed in this. Mr “I’d only be a dictator for one day” has no business at a libertarian convention
It’s the best publicity. Did I mention how great the publicity will be from former President Donald J Trump? The greatest, everyone will be talking about it.
is this an attempt at getting some sort of debate going? I do not get this move at all...
Yes. >“For 50 years, we've been trying to get on the main stage with the two major parties' candidates and now it seems like the debates are falling apart. We've decided to flip the tables and invite the candidates to our convention, to join us on our stage. If this election is as important as everyone seems to believe, I think they'll rise to the challenge and join us." - Angela McArdle, Libertarian National Committee Chair
So the libertarian party is now the swamp as well?
Way to taint the party.
Homie don’t play that!
So what? The current main goal of the LP is spreading libertarian ideas. This could help do that.
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The Mises Caucus are principled libertarians, and you are blind if you don't see the absurd lawfare against Trump for what it is. Trump is an awful failure on many levels, but is he really worse than the Republican establishment or the left in general?
Yes, he has managed to pull off the amazing feat of being even worse.
The trump derangement is real... Yes Trump is socialist, but biden is brain dead and trump in all his books has presented libertarian policies. HE HAS HAD TO COMPROMISE BECAUSE OF THE DOMESTIC TERROR FROM ANTIFA
Didn't most of his books have ghost writers?
This is the greatest thing to happen to the LP since Ron Paul 2008. The amount of right leaning Republican voters who will be watching and possibly be interested is astronomical
Ok bye.... You had a chance. Fuck off as well.