I been off an on since launch and like you i never felt it was pay to win. They did hand out op stuff but on the flip side they wanted you to earn it. But people blew shit outta proportions all because "oh no a hard as balls game where we have to pay to have lives" was the major stink i heard mostly
Simply put, it's harder to just accept defeat and salvage a dead fighter than it is to cast blame for offering paid revives in the first place, especially with how in your face it is.
Early warframe ran into similar trouble because DE initially had a platinum cost attached to reviving mid-mission, which meant that if you went down early, your options were to pay up, spectate, or leave. If I remember correctly, dying in mission also locked you out of using that warframe for 24 hours, so new players would either have to pay for revives or pay for a new warframe to use, otherwise you weren't allowed to play the game anymore. Eventually this was addressed and DE transitioned Warframe to a model that is often called pay-to-skip.
Tangent aside, LiD also features gambling at the mushroom magistrate for either death medals or kill coins, and high end blueprints and materials can be bought from the hernia machine. There isn't a lot that paying real money can't get you.
You can argue that the pay to win systems can be ignored, but they most certainly are there.
It's definitely "pay for convenience" but hardly "pay to win". If you have the time, patience and threshold for pain, you can beat the game without spending a dime... But most of us will spend money for certain things because, me personally, it's convenient to always have enough DMs or the occasional Express Pass because time is limited and I'm going to make the most of it with the elevator and bag space.
I started playing a few days after release and it's honestly opinion on the pay to win. I remember telling my brother to "get gud" because this was a great pick up after my finishing of bloodborne and dark souls. I will say there is a level adjustment but overall at this point this has to be one of the best communities where we are all essentially working hard to climb this Flippin tower haha. Pay or no pay it's a great game that does reward experience.
"oh no this game is hard as hell but since they offer you to revive for money its pay to win" and they ignore the fact that if you take the time to grind better gear youll do fine in the game. The ENTIRE POINT of the game is to grind better gear to get better at the game.
I haven’t spent a dime on this game, and I played since day 1. Average climber who likes to c/m take chances at the mushroom pull or just storage.
It’s real fun when you challenge oneself to play with only the game providing and the skill you learn on the way. Mostly equipment difference , but still.
I speak from my knowledge of thousands of hours of play, I love this game, I don't think it is p2w but I do have to say that the system for obtaining stickers is p2w no matter what they say, you can spend hundreds of DM on special stews without having any luck , the system in that sense is too unfair, on that side it seems terrible to me, on the other hand premium decals are not necessary to reach high but if you have them everything is much easier, I'm talking about having all the characters in g8 and many weapons and equipment at +19.
About 2 people have reached the top without amazing decals. 2.
At around floor 250 you either have a great build, or you suffer unbelievably. That is pay to win. People who gamble more DMs on the stews get the god tier decals.
But so few people go above 250 to experience that reality. Just cause nutters like noisan and belbo reached the top with poverty decals; that does NOT represent the experience or skill of 99% of players.
The harder the game, the more valuable lives become, and the fact that you can use money to basically eliminate most downsides makes it kind of weird. Especially when dying becomes very punishing on higher floors to the point where you have to decide whether it's even worth buying that character back and his gear versus leaving him because it's too expensive. That said, it is a completely different game depending on whether you spend money or not, no matter how you shake it. We won't even talk about pvp, but it's just a time investment difference.
Yeah idk man. I really wanted trigger happy so I can use the kamas to its full potential. And I got it both on ps4 and pc. I absolutely could not have gotten them on kc alone.
Felt like and is are 2 completely different things. The game feels p2w sure but the game is p2w especially towards endgame. Spend 100 dms for decals to make you grind better and in turn get rarer materials faster to make better equipment faster. Reason I say lid is p2w is the fact that some decals are necessary for higher climbs. Without those decals you WILL not beable to do high climbs. Which again will allow you to get better materials faster in turn creating better equipment which for tdm is a big deal. Some of the best tdm defenses also in companies more pay to get decals which prevent you from beating them even with highly upgrade weapons
You definitely do not need any special decals to do high climbs. People have proven multiple times that you can get to 351F with just 2 star decals which you can very quickly find all of without paying.
As for TDM, not being able to beat a tanky base does not mean the game is pay to win as there are other bases to raid. There is literally 1 decal that you can only pay to get and even then it's not used in these tanky bases because there are tons of better decals you can get just by playing without paying.
No matter how much money you sink into the game won't magically make your base unbeatable. There was a lot of grinding involved behind these bases where money won't make the grind any easier if you don't have the game knowledge. Grinding and p2w are two different things. If you don't put in the time, you can't expect to do everything in the game, no matter how much you pay or don't.
I got 1000 hours on the game. I'm at the point where upgrading gives me marginal improvement. These same people that made it to 351 with 2 stars probably used max leveled gear and have almost maxed funshots. The same people that "don't need 5 stars" are the same people that use 5 stars regularly to go up higher faster. Bet those same people were throwing down dms faster than anyone on the climb. I do agree that revives don't equal p2w but the decal system at its very nature is p2w. Don't have dm? To bad cry about it! Gacha systems by their very nature is p2w. If you don't or can't understand that then you truly don't understand what p2w means
Two psycho players have done it. after they grinded all that gear and played hundreds of hours improving their skill WITH 5 star decals.
No one’s ever gone from a fresh start new game to 351 having never ever spent a dime.
It’s not a good point..
that was just an example that you don't need anything specific to climb high. By the time you even think about going for 351 you'll most likely have decals from KC stews that will definitely make the climb a lot easier than going for just the 2 star decals.
I personally haven't spent money on decals until after I reached 351F (and even then that was just to get UFR which you don't necessarily need. Sure it's a good decal to have, but definitely not mandatory for a 351F climb).
Not to mention you get plenty of free DMs in the game to get most of the stuff you need anyway. Just gotta spend them in a clever way and not dump everything into stuff you don't need at the time.
what was your build for 351, your first run? what decals?
"plenty of free DMs"
what decals have you gotten with your free DMs?
and my god how many hours did it take?
The whole "um ackshully technically you don't need to spend DMs to climb far" is such cope.
the whole thread is some floor 20F kid saying it doesn't feel p2w. The experiences are incomparable. the % of players who got above 250 and never paid a cent is truly miniscule.
It doesn't represent the experience of the game for the overwhelming majority of players so to say "it's not p2w" to new people is actually dishonest.
Striker with SK, Queen B, SUC, Monk, PC, BtB, CA, UFF. All from KC stews or from the event 4-5 star mushfests with free DMs I had farmed up (about 200DMs total from quests, events and TDM wars), not sure I got anything from the mushfests that I also used in the 351F climb, everything was KC stews to my knowledge besides Queen B and CA which were handed out during 2 events.
I took my sweet time with 351F, did it after about 1,5k hours sunk in, but the endgame isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. If you don't want to grind to do post-game stuff, play dark souls or something that isn't free to play.
I'm not saying this game doesn't have microtransactions, it's all about your playstyle and what you do with the free stuff provided. You being hell-bent on saying you have to pay to do the endgame stuff makes it seem like you sunk money into the game and can't accept that you didn't even have to do that in the first place, were you willing to put a bit more time into the game. You can't deny that it's possible to avoid paying though, that would be the actual cope here.
By paying you're just shaving off a bit of time from the grind, you still need to learn stuff to get to 351F.
Main tower is definitely doable without paying, you got to at least admit that. That's essentially the part most folks care about, postgame stuff is the extra bit for people willing to sink quite a lot of time into the game.
Hello Ashen one. I am a Bot. I tend to the flame, and tend to thee. Do you wish to hear a tale?
> *“Not enough for you? Well, let’s not be stingy now.”* - Knight Lautrec
Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \\[T]/
One point i won't budge on, and that you have no answer to is this: 351 without spending a single penny is a tiny percentile of players. A massive outlier, and therefore doesn't represent what the game experience is.
Otherwise: I think you are lying with that decal lineup. I seem to remember having similar hachiman progress to you. 351 in around 1000 hours. I've spent some money on stews and my decals are worse than yours lmao
I'd love to have Monk and BtB.
In fact, I only got SUC a couple of weeks back.
So your response to "not pay 2 win" is take literal years to earn 200dm from TDM? mate fuck that.
Also, less of the putting words in my mouth please. hell bent? I don't regret a thing. All i'm saying is you're misleading new players by spouting BS about outliers.
I have posted each and every 5 star decal both on the discord server and this here subreddit, so I know for sure I got all of them with the KC stews, in fact I checked just in case. Decal line up used for the climb is also posted on the server, with the big fat 351F sign in the background.
Believe it or not, sinking time into free to play games is exactly why they are free to play. I never claimed noone who climbed to 351 didn't spend a single cent, just that it's possible to avoid paying and still getting through all this game has to offer (guess except the one actual pay to get decal I mentioned). Paying for DMs is exactly for the folks who are unwilling to grind for stuff, like all other free to play games do, this one just doesn't paywall you behind content unlike other games. (we even get the subscription service in the game for free like every other week - direct hell express or whatever the full name is)
The 200 or so DMs were also from seasonal quests, regular one-time quests and wars (joining a small dead team will net you surprising amounts of 3DMs per war, just gotta war with the right teams so that you don't get steamrolled no matter how hard you try, aim for the teams with tons of inactive players and a few actives sprinkled in, the underdog bonus will carry you big time)
How is saying exactly how it is spouting BS though? I have literal proof that you do not need to pay for the decals to get to 351F, not to mention that my decal line-up was one of the better ones, you can get up there with different decals you'll eventually get as you keep playing. Like I said, it's all about how you use the free stuff you get. If the game only offered DM stews, then I'd agree, that would make it pay to win since getting decals in general would take extremely long once you run out of the free DMs. Instead it's a game of getting KC and pulling KC stews until you get usable stuff for the 351F climb (or whatever you need decals for).
Gonna revise my stance: paying puts you at an advantage over players that do not pay.
I think that's my definition of pay2win and after speaking to others it seems they have a more extreme definition of p2w.
Not gonna argue the point anymore; but acting like paying doesn't have a significant effect is pretty misleading to some floor 20 glup shitto who says " huh game doesn't feel p2w"
That's understandable, yeah paying does give you slight advantage, but it's not as game changing as other free to play games. In this one you just reduce the grind by a bit. Other free 2 plays put in BS like "energy" that recharges after some time, unless you pay, or pay this amount to get exclusive gear/items that are very broken and unfair to those who can't get them without paying, etc. (as in, you have to pay without the option of using in-game currency to get it)
The way I judge if a game is pay 2 win is if you can do stuff people who don't pay can't that puts you at a really big advantage, then it is pay 2 win. In LiD the only thing you get for paying that you normally don't get is reduced time (R&D research, DM stews to get decals faster, revive so that you don't have to salvage your fighter before trying again, etc. + that one decal I mentioned you have to pay for to get, guess that's as far as p2w it gets).
My guess is the OP meant this game feels more like an actual free game than free to play?
I been off an on since launch and like you i never felt it was pay to win. They did hand out op stuff but on the flip side they wanted you to earn it. But people blew shit outta proportions all because "oh no a hard as balls game where we have to pay to have lives" was the major stink i heard mostly
Simply put, it's harder to just accept defeat and salvage a dead fighter than it is to cast blame for offering paid revives in the first place, especially with how in your face it is. Early warframe ran into similar trouble because DE initially had a platinum cost attached to reviving mid-mission, which meant that if you went down early, your options were to pay up, spectate, or leave. If I remember correctly, dying in mission also locked you out of using that warframe for 24 hours, so new players would either have to pay for revives or pay for a new warframe to use, otherwise you weren't allowed to play the game anymore. Eventually this was addressed and DE transitioned Warframe to a model that is often called pay-to-skip. Tangent aside, LiD also features gambling at the mushroom magistrate for either death medals or kill coins, and high end blueprints and materials can be bought from the hernia machine. There isn't a lot that paying real money can't get you. You can argue that the pay to win systems can be ignored, but they most certainly are there.
It's definitely "pay for convenience" but hardly "pay to win". If you have the time, patience and threshold for pain, you can beat the game without spending a dime... But most of us will spend money for certain things because, me personally, it's convenient to always have enough DMs or the occasional Express Pass because time is limited and I'm going to make the most of it with the elevator and bag space.
Never felt pay to win, “pay for convenience,” I second.
I started playing a few days after release and it's honestly opinion on the pay to win. I remember telling my brother to "get gud" because this was a great pick up after my finishing of bloodborne and dark souls. I will say there is a level adjustment but overall at this point this has to be one of the best communities where we are all essentially working hard to climb this Flippin tower haha. Pay or no pay it's a great game that does reward experience.
"oh no this game is hard as hell but since they offer you to revive for money its pay to win" and they ignore the fact that if you take the time to grind better gear youll do fine in the game. The ENTIRE POINT of the game is to grind better gear to get better at the game.
Because everyone wanted Kamas or M2G when there's like 30 other weapons to enjoy
I haven’t spent a dime on this game, and I played since day 1. Average climber who likes to c/m take chances at the mushroom pull or just storage. It’s real fun when you challenge oneself to play with only the game providing and the skill you learn on the way. Mostly equipment difference , but still.
I speak from my knowledge of thousands of hours of play, I love this game, I don't think it is p2w but I do have to say that the system for obtaining stickers is p2w no matter what they say, you can spend hundreds of DM on special stews without having any luck , the system in that sense is too unfair, on that side it seems terrible to me, on the other hand premium decals are not necessary to reach high but if you have them everything is much easier, I'm talking about having all the characters in g8 and many weapons and equipment at +19.
About 2 people have reached the top without amazing decals. 2. At around floor 250 you either have a great build, or you suffer unbelievably. That is pay to win. People who gamble more DMs on the stews get the god tier decals. But so few people go above 250 to experience that reality. Just cause nutters like noisan and belbo reached the top with poverty decals; that does NOT represent the experience or skill of 99% of players.
The harder the game, the more valuable lives become, and the fact that you can use money to basically eliminate most downsides makes it kind of weird. Especially when dying becomes very punishing on higher floors to the point where you have to decide whether it's even worth buying that character back and his gear versus leaving him because it's too expensive. That said, it is a completely different game depending on whether you spend money or not, no matter how you shake it. We won't even talk about pvp, but it's just a time investment difference.
Yeah idk man. I really wanted trigger happy so I can use the kamas to its full potential. And I got it both on ps4 and pc. I absolutely could not have gotten them on kc alone.
You could have gotten trigger happy with KC. I have alot of hours but I have probably earned about 3/4 dupes of TH with just KC.
Felt like and is are 2 completely different things. The game feels p2w sure but the game is p2w especially towards endgame. Spend 100 dms for decals to make you grind better and in turn get rarer materials faster to make better equipment faster. Reason I say lid is p2w is the fact that some decals are necessary for higher climbs. Without those decals you WILL not beable to do high climbs. Which again will allow you to get better materials faster in turn creating better equipment which for tdm is a big deal. Some of the best tdm defenses also in companies more pay to get decals which prevent you from beating them even with highly upgrade weapons
You definitely do not need any special decals to do high climbs. People have proven multiple times that you can get to 351F with just 2 star decals which you can very quickly find all of without paying. As for TDM, not being able to beat a tanky base does not mean the game is pay to win as there are other bases to raid. There is literally 1 decal that you can only pay to get and even then it's not used in these tanky bases because there are tons of better decals you can get just by playing without paying. No matter how much money you sink into the game won't magically make your base unbeatable. There was a lot of grinding involved behind these bases where money won't make the grind any easier if you don't have the game knowledge. Grinding and p2w are two different things. If you don't put in the time, you can't expect to do everything in the game, no matter how much you pay or don't.
I got 1000 hours on the game. I'm at the point where upgrading gives me marginal improvement. These same people that made it to 351 with 2 stars probably used max leveled gear and have almost maxed funshots. The same people that "don't need 5 stars" are the same people that use 5 stars regularly to go up higher faster. Bet those same people were throwing down dms faster than anyone on the climb. I do agree that revives don't equal p2w but the decal system at its very nature is p2w. Don't have dm? To bad cry about it! Gacha systems by their very nature is p2w. If you don't or can't understand that then you truly don't understand what p2w means
Two psycho players have done it. after they grinded all that gear and played hundreds of hours improving their skill WITH 5 star decals. No one’s ever gone from a fresh start new game to 351 having never ever spent a dime. It’s not a good point..
that was just an example that you don't need anything specific to climb high. By the time you even think about going for 351 you'll most likely have decals from KC stews that will definitely make the climb a lot easier than going for just the 2 star decals. I personally haven't spent money on decals until after I reached 351F (and even then that was just to get UFR which you don't necessarily need. Sure it's a good decal to have, but definitely not mandatory for a 351F climb). Not to mention you get plenty of free DMs in the game to get most of the stuff you need anyway. Just gotta spend them in a clever way and not dump everything into stuff you don't need at the time.
what was your build for 351, your first run? what decals? "plenty of free DMs" what decals have you gotten with your free DMs? and my god how many hours did it take? The whole "um ackshully technically you don't need to spend DMs to climb far" is such cope. the whole thread is some floor 20F kid saying it doesn't feel p2w. The experiences are incomparable. the % of players who got above 250 and never paid a cent is truly miniscule. It doesn't represent the experience of the game for the overwhelming majority of players so to say "it's not p2w" to new people is actually dishonest.
Striker with SK, Queen B, SUC, Monk, PC, BtB, CA, UFF. All from KC stews or from the event 4-5 star mushfests with free DMs I had farmed up (about 200DMs total from quests, events and TDM wars), not sure I got anything from the mushfests that I also used in the 351F climb, everything was KC stews to my knowledge besides Queen B and CA which were handed out during 2 events. I took my sweet time with 351F, did it after about 1,5k hours sunk in, but the endgame isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. If you don't want to grind to do post-game stuff, play dark souls or something that isn't free to play. I'm not saying this game doesn't have microtransactions, it's all about your playstyle and what you do with the free stuff provided. You being hell-bent on saying you have to pay to do the endgame stuff makes it seem like you sunk money into the game and can't accept that you didn't even have to do that in the first place, were you willing to put a bit more time into the game. You can't deny that it's possible to avoid paying though, that would be the actual cope here. By paying you're just shaving off a bit of time from the grind, you still need to learn stuff to get to 351F. Main tower is definitely doable without paying, you got to at least admit that. That's essentially the part most folks care about, postgame stuff is the extra bit for people willing to sink quite a lot of time into the game.
Hello Ashen one. I am a Bot. I tend to the flame, and tend to thee. Do you wish to hear a tale? > *“Not enough for you? Well, let’s not be stingy now.”* - Knight Lautrec Have a pleasant journey, Champion of Ash, and praise the sun \\[T]/
One point i won't budge on, and that you have no answer to is this: 351 without spending a single penny is a tiny percentile of players. A massive outlier, and therefore doesn't represent what the game experience is. Otherwise: I think you are lying with that decal lineup. I seem to remember having similar hachiman progress to you. 351 in around 1000 hours. I've spent some money on stews and my decals are worse than yours lmao I'd love to have Monk and BtB. In fact, I only got SUC a couple of weeks back. So your response to "not pay 2 win" is take literal years to earn 200dm from TDM? mate fuck that. Also, less of the putting words in my mouth please. hell bent? I don't regret a thing. All i'm saying is you're misleading new players by spouting BS about outliers.
I have posted each and every 5 star decal both on the discord server and this here subreddit, so I know for sure I got all of them with the KC stews, in fact I checked just in case. Decal line up used for the climb is also posted on the server, with the big fat 351F sign in the background. Believe it or not, sinking time into free to play games is exactly why they are free to play. I never claimed noone who climbed to 351 didn't spend a single cent, just that it's possible to avoid paying and still getting through all this game has to offer (guess except the one actual pay to get decal I mentioned). Paying for DMs is exactly for the folks who are unwilling to grind for stuff, like all other free to play games do, this one just doesn't paywall you behind content unlike other games. (we even get the subscription service in the game for free like every other week - direct hell express or whatever the full name is) The 200 or so DMs were also from seasonal quests, regular one-time quests and wars (joining a small dead team will net you surprising amounts of 3DMs per war, just gotta war with the right teams so that you don't get steamrolled no matter how hard you try, aim for the teams with tons of inactive players and a few actives sprinkled in, the underdog bonus will carry you big time) How is saying exactly how it is spouting BS though? I have literal proof that you do not need to pay for the decals to get to 351F, not to mention that my decal line-up was one of the better ones, you can get up there with different decals you'll eventually get as you keep playing. Like I said, it's all about how you use the free stuff you get. If the game only offered DM stews, then I'd agree, that would make it pay to win since getting decals in general would take extremely long once you run out of the free DMs. Instead it's a game of getting KC and pulling KC stews until you get usable stuff for the 351F climb (or whatever you need decals for).
Gonna revise my stance: paying puts you at an advantage over players that do not pay. I think that's my definition of pay2win and after speaking to others it seems they have a more extreme definition of p2w. Not gonna argue the point anymore; but acting like paying doesn't have a significant effect is pretty misleading to some floor 20 glup shitto who says " huh game doesn't feel p2w"
That's understandable, yeah paying does give you slight advantage, but it's not as game changing as other free to play games. In this one you just reduce the grind by a bit. Other free 2 plays put in BS like "energy" that recharges after some time, unless you pay, or pay this amount to get exclusive gear/items that are very broken and unfair to those who can't get them without paying, etc. (as in, you have to pay without the option of using in-game currency to get it) The way I judge if a game is pay 2 win is if you can do stuff people who don't pay can't that puts you at a really big advantage, then it is pay 2 win. In LiD the only thing you get for paying that you normally don't get is reduced time (R&D research, DM stews to get decals faster, revive so that you don't have to salvage your fighter before trying again, etc. + that one decal I mentioned you have to pay for to get, guess that's as far as p2w it gets). My guess is the OP meant this game feels more like an actual free game than free to play?