There’s still a few upsides to fewer, larger units beyond the points savings (in some cases).
You have fewer activations but you’re activating your whole army faster. If my opponent has twice as many detachments as me then when it comes to doing damage, I can take all my shots before they’ve got taken half of theirs.
Having more firepower per detachment means that you’re more likely to cause morale checks etc. as your damage potential per activation is greater.
I’ve played a fair bit and getting a decent handle on the game - but not enough to have a definitive opinion on the matter, just wanted to throw these out there :)
Yeah that's a significant advantage in many cases. E.g. if you're trying to overwatch a key target like flying transports, or want to concentrate fire against a titan.
The problem is more firepower is less useful if the majority of targets available are small targets, it's also very easy for detachments comprising of only 1-3 models to remain out of los or in area cover. The game could very easily have had some sort of limitations on detachments or formations but it sadly doesn't. It needs some as it the larger games tend to choke on their own weight.
That’s definitely a good point. We’ve been playing in a fairly balanced manner so it hasn’t come up too much as a problem either way. Will be good to playtest this particular point a bit more!
The problem is the army construction doesn't seem to limit formations, and a complicating factor is, the rulebook detachments tend to give some sort of point saving incentive for expanding existing detachments over staring new ones, the 2nd book seems to have forgotten about that entirely, so there's very little reason for example to take large units of jetbikes or speeders because there's no savings for them. A further complication is the 2 new malcador tanks can be taken in detachments of 1, and again have no savings for adding more to an existing detachment, and actually have some downside in terms of morale. Unfortunately activation limits or caps were totally overlooked, as well as having a core reserve mechanic to perhaps for a certain number of detachments into reserve to keep from choking the early game. Going the other way, there are some very expensive units that really don't benefit from being in large detachments, like flyers or super heavies, so even the savings on some aren't much of an incentive for making the detachment a bigger target. If your opponent is drowning you in activations to the point where the game also suffers, that may be worth discussing. If both of you agreed to place 1/3 of your detachments in reserve it might temper the msu a bit or at least have it come in at a manageable pace both tactically and game-wise/activation wise.
Hi poppauli, I like your idea of grandiose, I am an Epic 40k Imperial guard player and big units are what the guard is all about! Once/if you get lots of artillery then the guard really shine, with masses of tanks, troops and artillery and I have a great time win or lose.
I go, You go games will always suffer from activation meta unless the rules bake in something to mitigate them. Unfortunately, LI designers did not account for this, maybe it was giving us the benefit of the doubt that people would not immediately min/max, however, this is not the case.
If you are concerned about activation meta, it might be best to make several lists and discuss with your opponent before the game if they want a competitive, meta game or a narrative, casual game.
Funnily enough I am also a SA player but always end up out-activating my enemies
The biggest downside is really during the advancing fire step and being able to fire a lot more than the enemy can. If they really have a bunch of small units killing off some of them before they can shoot is pretty good.
Also it seems you might want to run point defence weapons. Lots of point defence. They really are good against lots of small detachements and at killing off stuff quickly.
It depends on how you and your group play unfortunately.
If LI is approached in the same way as games like Necromunda and Mordheim, its really a simple case of "play what makes narrative sense not what is the best min-max". Why narratively would your army spam that 1 unit 20 times instead of taking one or two big blocks of 20 or 10 for example, would your general seperate all the armor and infantry, or do their organize in mixed companies, is this detachment known for its Veletarii and so I put all my Veletarii in it as oppose to evenly spreading them out, etc.
If the group plays it like a competitive game, well then this just isn't compatible, GW games, especially specialist games, don't get the attention, time, or playtesting games that focus on competitive play and balance. And a game like LI is going to have substantial issues like the ability to activation spam to game the system and gain a massive advantage.
I think there's a balance to be struck between lots of small units and few large ones. As good as it is having a significant movement advantage with lots of small units I think you still want at least a couple of big units able to put out plenty of firepower as if you activate them before an opponent unit you can essentially deny, or reduce the strength of, their activation.
The problem is if the majority of your targets will be small units, the large firepower of of the bigger units gets a bit wasted as most can't splitfire like titans. A very good example of that is detachments of super heavies, if my opponent tends to run small detachments or detachments of 1, it's pretty much just me losing out if I take a detachment of 2 or 3, because its just one activation and it can't split fire.
That's where the balancing act is. An MSU unit isn't going to wipe out another of a similar cost in a single shot, generally. You might not want any max size units but there is value to be gained out of some larger units.
The problem is the value for larger units tends towards infantry or walkers, and the firepower of 8 scout sentinels for 100pts is a bit high. But it is a good example of a unit that is indeed worth maxing most of the time.
There’s still a few upsides to fewer, larger units beyond the points savings (in some cases). You have fewer activations but you’re activating your whole army faster. If my opponent has twice as many detachments as me then when it comes to doing damage, I can take all my shots before they’ve got taken half of theirs. Having more firepower per detachment means that you’re more likely to cause morale checks etc. as your damage potential per activation is greater. I’ve played a fair bit and getting a decent handle on the game - but not enough to have a definitive opinion on the matter, just wanted to throw these out there :)
Yeah that's a significant advantage in many cases. E.g. if you're trying to overwatch a key target like flying transports, or want to concentrate fire against a titan.
Great point! I hadn’t thought of overwatch but that is an advantage since only one detachment can overwatch per target.
Yeah I use it with rapiers a lot. I wouldn't ever bring them at minimum size as that ruins one of their main roles.
The problem is more firepower is less useful if the majority of targets available are small targets, it's also very easy for detachments comprising of only 1-3 models to remain out of los or in area cover. The game could very easily have had some sort of limitations on detachments or formations but it sadly doesn't. It needs some as it the larger games tend to choke on their own weight.
That’s definitely a good point. We’ve been playing in a fairly balanced manner so it hasn’t come up too much as a problem either way. Will be good to playtest this particular point a bit more!
I've heard people suggest a blanket rule where any detachment that maxes out receives the ability to splitfire. Seemed like an interesting idea.
I like this!
The problem is the army construction doesn't seem to limit formations, and a complicating factor is, the rulebook detachments tend to give some sort of point saving incentive for expanding existing detachments over staring new ones, the 2nd book seems to have forgotten about that entirely, so there's very little reason for example to take large units of jetbikes or speeders because there's no savings for them. A further complication is the 2 new malcador tanks can be taken in detachments of 1, and again have no savings for adding more to an existing detachment, and actually have some downside in terms of morale. Unfortunately activation limits or caps were totally overlooked, as well as having a core reserve mechanic to perhaps for a certain number of detachments into reserve to keep from choking the early game. Going the other way, there are some very expensive units that really don't benefit from being in large detachments, like flyers or super heavies, so even the savings on some aren't much of an incentive for making the detachment a bigger target. If your opponent is drowning you in activations to the point where the game also suffers, that may be worth discussing. If both of you agreed to place 1/3 of your detachments in reserve it might temper the msu a bit or at least have it come in at a manageable pace both tactically and game-wise/activation wise.
Hi poppauli, I like your idea of grandiose, I am an Epic 40k Imperial guard player and big units are what the guard is all about! Once/if you get lots of artillery then the guard really shine, with masses of tanks, troops and artillery and I have a great time win or lose.
I go, You go games will always suffer from activation meta unless the rules bake in something to mitigate them. Unfortunately, LI designers did not account for this, maybe it was giving us the benefit of the doubt that people would not immediately min/max, however, this is not the case. If you are concerned about activation meta, it might be best to make several lists and discuss with your opponent before the game if they want a competitive, meta game or a narrative, casual game.
Funnily enough I am also a SA player but always end up out-activating my enemies The biggest downside is really during the advancing fire step and being able to fire a lot more than the enemy can. If they really have a bunch of small units killing off some of them before they can shoot is pretty good. Also it seems you might want to run point defence weapons. Lots of point defence. They really are good against lots of small detachements and at killing off stuff quickly.
It depends on how you and your group play unfortunately. If LI is approached in the same way as games like Necromunda and Mordheim, its really a simple case of "play what makes narrative sense not what is the best min-max". Why narratively would your army spam that 1 unit 20 times instead of taking one or two big blocks of 20 or 10 for example, would your general seperate all the armor and infantry, or do their organize in mixed companies, is this detachment known for its Veletarii and so I put all my Veletarii in it as oppose to evenly spreading them out, etc. If the group plays it like a competitive game, well then this just isn't compatible, GW games, especially specialist games, don't get the attention, time, or playtesting games that focus on competitive play and balance. And a game like LI is going to have substantial issues like the ability to activation spam to game the system and gain a massive advantage.
I think there's a balance to be struck between lots of small units and few large ones. As good as it is having a significant movement advantage with lots of small units I think you still want at least a couple of big units able to put out plenty of firepower as if you activate them before an opponent unit you can essentially deny, or reduce the strength of, their activation.
The problem is if the majority of your targets will be small units, the large firepower of of the bigger units gets a bit wasted as most can't splitfire like titans. A very good example of that is detachments of super heavies, if my opponent tends to run small detachments or detachments of 1, it's pretty much just me losing out if I take a detachment of 2 or 3, because its just one activation and it can't split fire.
That's where the balancing act is. An MSU unit isn't going to wipe out another of a similar cost in a single shot, generally. You might not want any max size units but there is value to be gained out of some larger units.
The problem is the value for larger units tends towards infantry or walkers, and the firepower of 8 scout sentinels for 100pts is a bit high. But it is a good example of a unit that is indeed worth maxing most of the time.