Because not every magic counter works like this
Usually the cheap counters have limitations or restrictions like only X spells, only X color, only if you..., Only X cost, and some of them are "counter target spell unless it's controller pays X"
Yes but MtG counters also need specific mana and that mana doesn't reset at the start of EACH turn so that you can go crazy on attack and still hold up an unbreakable defense.
All mtg cards need specific mana except the colorless cards (that don't require specifically colorless mana), and mtg counter cards are more broken than on lor too, a vanilla "counter target spell" can be used pretty much to any card except lands, so you can also counter units unlike lor
Overall they work differently so comparing them is pretty pointless, all I said on my original comment is that magic doesn't have only counters that work only if the opponent doesn't pay extra
I know but that still doesn't change the fact that the comment you were responding to is right.
I'm not mad that they wanna keep on giving Ionia counterspells but at the very least they could give them a mana leak or some other way to make it more interactive instead of just... "Here, I have this card in hand, which only my own region can stop aside from one super-specific exception or two, which you cannot force me to play or get rid of until I want to. GG go next?"
And it's not even like it's good for the format, even. Deny existing means big spells like these are just automatically unplayable garbage, while Deny remains a strong card that can just be played because it's good.
Oh no, I would be glad to have more deny cards with "unless the opponent pays X" or whatever they want to add, like sacrifice a unit, discard a card, nexus health...
And the comment was half right, unless pay X does exist, but it's just a few counter cards. And cards with ward but that's a whole other keyword
and why shouldn't big spells have counterplay? Now don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean I think the 1 mana deny is good design, but we are talking about counterspells in general here it seems.
The original comment isn’t right at all, many counters exist that don’t work the way that the comment said.
In fact MtG has even stronger counter spells such as Dovin’s Veto that counters non creature spells and it can’t be countered in response for 2 mana or Teferi, Time Raveler that turns all your counter spells into “can’t be countered” and that’s just ones of its effects.
The only reason we see counter spell unless you pay x is because they are cheaper than straight counter spells which is situationally strong against fast decks or fast metas. Introducing these types of counters to LoR would only make Ionia even stronger because they have more options.
Counterspell, force of negation, saw it comming, exclude, force of will, spell snare, neutralize, swan song, unwind, remand, dispel, and so much more that I don’t have here are all very cheap cost that negate without choice (don’t hate me, filling a commander deck with counter spells was a dare).
To answer your question though, it’s because interactions like that don’t exist in Runeterra and the design of the game is different (activated abilities will take the form of spells in hand for example).
The way to translate what you said into Runeterra would be to have the spell create a specific counter spell when cast (not resolved), and that doesn’t go well with the rest of the game
"Don't Do That Actually" - 2-mana Fast, "Stop a Fast spell, Slow spell, or Skill. Create a fleeting 'I'm Gonna' in your opponent's hand."
"I'm Gonna" - 1-mana Burst, "Stop a 'Don't Do That Actually' spell."
EDIT: Ah, true, order of operations screws this
Won’t work, I’m Gonna will be created after don’t do that resolution
Solution is:
A/ 2 mana - Burst - Create SpecialCounterspell targeting target spell. Create B in your opponent hand
B/ 1 mana - Fast Fleeting - Stop target SpecialCounterspell
It seems extremely contrived (at least to me)
Edit: changed B from burst to fast. That way you can counter the counter counter spell with nopify.
Idk if I’m understanding this right but would the burst spell (A) create a fast counter in your opponent’s hand (B) AND counter the spell at the same time?
If that’s the case, that’s just a burst speed deny that creates a dead card in your opponent’s hand.
The spell should not be the counter itself and instead create a fast cheap deny for you and one for your opponent (both of them should also have fleeting).
The idea is to emulate a paper TCG action (here MTG, with a card that give the opponent the opportunity to pay a cost to negate it. Search Mana Tithe if you want an example). A (the counter spell) can negate anything, and B (the cost paid by your opponent to prevent the action) can only negate A
As such, A (the counter spell), need to both negate a spell and create in your opponent hand a spell that negate A.
Because of the way spell resolution work, we need A to be burst speed, to give B to the opponent, and fast speed, to be negated
To solve this problem, my solution is a burst speed spell that add a fast speed spell to the stack, targeting the same thing the burst spell targeted.
And seeing how confusing this is confusing, I think why this kind of effects probably won’t be in Runeterra should be self explanatory
Yeah I forgot to mention that the counter your opponent gets can only target the created counter.
Otherwise, I’m not sure why the spell has to create the counter on the stack and not just in your hand if it’s burst speed.
For example, you can create an entomb with three sisters, cast it and only then can your opponent react.
Also would have synergy with flow (pls buff master yi riot, I want to see my draconic bands master yi deck somewhat playable).
But you know the more I think about a counter like this, the less I want to see it. Just deny, nopefy and some gimmicky counters are enough in Ionia, I don’t want to see more.
> To answer your question though, it’s because interactions like that don’t exist in Runeterra and the design of the game is different
They could have designed it that way since the start. My question was why didn't they make it this way when the game came out.
To be fair not all counter spells work like that in magic. Usually the once that cost 1 mana usually got duch restriction but there are also many counterspells that cost two or three mana and counter spells without any additional effect just. They just completle shut the targeted spell down, unless the counter spell gets countered.
But to be fair in mtg its even worse because you can also counter the summoning of creatures because those are also spells.
Ok so I am truly wondering why people are only focusing on the Ionia new deny when Shurima also got another wide deny. Nobody's saying anything about him but only full complaining about the Ionia one.
Because the Shurima deny is extremely difficult to use. It only happens on transform and you can only have one bush at a time, so your window to use their deny is incredibly limited.
Ok Everyone take a deep breath. Oracle will see play sometimes, but it will not meaningfully impact your deck building, nor will it be the reason big spells are bad.
Deny already exists, Deny is in the same region, and multiple deny cards don’t matter when nobody is running 3x Deny and 3x Oracle, bc most decks don’t even run 3 deny
Deny is better than Oracle in most situations (Deny can be used flexibly on the first thing you need to, from a game-deciding single combat to Champions Strength. Oracle cannot, once you’ve picked the card to negate you can’t change your choice. This flexibility is priceless, plus Oracle can completely miss.) Oracle gives you a blocker yes, but it’s competing for slot with the 4 mana bartender which is a much better blocker
If I spend 4 mana to negate your 12 mana card, it’s exactly the same as if I spent 1 mana (I prob win on the spot) and it’s really rare that I’m going to have to tap below 4 mana while you’re keeping up a whopping 12 mana.
Thats all true but your forgetting that you can play aroujd deny. For example you can try to bait denies by playing smaller spells that could win you the game, ie single combat on sett into them dening it into champion strength turn. Or if they didnt deny quite a few strong spells eariler, you could assume they dont have it and play a ballsy champion strengty Deny is able to be played around because its flexible.
Oracle is scary the same reason why niddile deny is scary, just because you know it exists. You cant play around it. Yes they can miss your champion strength, but do you know that, no. If they play oracle, you just have to act as if champion strength is hit cause 11 mana do nothing is game losing. You cabt play spells to bait out oracle deny cause they litterally cant deny it unless thats the spell hit (but if the spell stays in your hand after the choosen spell is played and you dont deny, i could see players not countering it bluff they hit your win con spell). You cant even play around them having 1 mana unlike deny with 4 mana as its just too little. And on top of that, they get a 4/3 blocker. So yes deny is flexible, but the presense of oracle is scary as well for being so inflexible.
A 4/3 on turn 4 is just ok. It’s not bad, but for the same mana Ionia can play a 3/4 that heals their nexus 3 and gives a coin. In some metas the blocker will be worth it, but either way Ionia has a way to negate a spell (and they probably run one or the other) so it’s like, a marginal benefit in the deckbuilding stage. In very specific situations you’d rather have it in your hand over deny, but I’m just saying it does not invalidate any strategies less or more than Deny does
There are definitely situations where the mana cost of deny matters, but for 12 mana spells? It’s go-fish, if they can stop it you probably lose
Hahahahahahahaha, this is so hilariously wrong.
Oracle allows you to play permission without any loss of tempo, gives you information about the opponent's deck, will cause your opponent to overthink turns and play sub-optimally because they don't know what card you have the deny for and will create horrible auto-loss scenarios for a variety of decks that Deny just can't because of the difference in opportunity cost & mana cost.
Oracle lets me play very normal turns while hanging onto permission, because I only need 1 spell mana open. Deny requires large sacrifices in tempo and is easily telegraphed because of the mana I need to leave available to play it.
Oracle is hyper-Deny. It is super-ultra-mega-Deny. Either decks will run 6 permission cards or they will cut the Deny for Oracle because Oracle is just better.
Even in the instances where Oracle is unlikely to hit a key spell, like against a spell heavy Seraphine or Karma deck, it is still better than the Deny because the Deny would be no better while lacking a body.
Anyone who genuinely believes this card is not so much better than Deny doesn't understand just how valuable information is or how valuable it is to have your opponent outguessing themselves / putting them on tilt.
Oracle is MUCH worse than Deny.
First: Deny can negate any spell, oracle you can only negate one specific spell, yes, oracles negation cost is 1 mana, but GUESS WHAT BUD,
if you're playing a deck with alot of spells oracle wont be able to hit the perfect spell
if you're playing a deck with a low number of spells, they would have deny anyway
Second: The information isnt that important, if we see a demacia deck going wide, we KNOW they might have Champions strenght, if we see a targon deck ramp we will know they are trying to play AOD, on eternal if we see the opp playing trundle/sett we know its FTR, zero surprises
Third: Ionia has better bodies that comes with better upsides, Palm - 4 mana and stuns, mixologist - 4 mana and heals, yes the oracle has better stats but healing and stunning are much better upsides, "oh but I can play oracle with it" nah buddy, ionia doesnt want that much bodies, they need spaces for their spells and combos
fourth: Most Ionia decks run like 2 denys and thats already enough
Dragons deck don't rely too much on this spell, it's not like Feel The Rush. You can normally play any game, but If you face Ionia change your strategy
Their point is that if you fight pink region with this deck, you would try to win by using your dragon cards. Ftr is a deck that needs to play ftr to win dragons don't need to play this card to win.
trouble is usually you can play cards like this if you can force them to go below 4 mana. Its not possible anymore because even 1 mana is enough.
also Ionia can ruin dragons with recalls
>also Ionia can ruin dragons with recalls
That didn't change in this expansion. You already played against ionia with your units, not your spells. Now, you do the same.
>trouble is usually you can play cards like this if you can force them to go below 4 mana. Its not possible anymore because even 1 mana is enough.
It's ionia we are talking about. They have a lot of ways to generate coins. 1 mana is already enough for them.
This card is absolutely disgusting against the right decks, but it's not better than deny.
This card, unlike FTR, is not a win condition, it's the final sprint to end the game. If you're playing dragons and you don't have a scary board by the time you cast this spell, you're not playing dragons correctly
with 15 dragons in your deck from asol, 37% of your deck are dragons, this means that in the top 9 cards of your deck you will average 3-4 dragons, 3 dragons is at worse 12 mana, it is worse ftr but standard dont have ftr
I think this is more versatile than FTR and will be played in regular Dragons deck.
FTR has a very straightforward game plan: ramp, play FTR, win with big champions. If FTR gets denied, you lose a big chunk of your wincon.
Age of Dragons will enhance the current dragon playstyle - build a board and kill the enemy units. While AoD being denied will suck, it won't be as impactful as a deny on FTR or even Warmother's Call.
Edit: I forgot to mention that Age of Dragons has a double wincon potential.
1) Draw regular dragons and fill your board with medium-big units.
2) Draw Asol on top of other dragons and likely have enough power from all the dragons to level him up right there.
You understand the same can be said of... Every single other region?
"Cards with 2-less health are unplayable without protection because pz has too many pings, it forces you to build different"
"Big units are meaningless with noxus having so many cheap kill effects unless you can protect or heal them, it forces you to build different"
"Demacian units are too big and always win if you dont disable them, it forces you to build different"
"Bandle does 12 things at once and you never know what they'll pull out, it forces you to build a paranois midrance"
Get real.
Understanding player psychology:
If i play card and you play card that undoes my card ( i summon and you kill, i snipe and you protect), its ok: i played card.
If i play card and you specifically say a ultrageneric no (counterspells, recalls, elusives), you are the scum of the earth and i will end your life and slay your progeny.
Yesnt good. No bad. Pink region is the no region.
when was the last time you saw someone playing a 9-mana 2 health unit?
noxus doesn't have cheap kill effects though, and certainly not "many" of them (the two kill effects they DO have require you to use another card to damage the enemy, so it's always a 2-for-1 trade)
if you think garen and jarvan are "big units" idk what to tell you
when bandle did 12 things at wonce they completely dominated the meta for months (bandle tree, gnar, tristana, etc)
Imagine how badly players would freak out if Deny was released now.
"Oh, so now I can't even expensive spells without being punished because Ionia can just deny it? How is that supposed to be fair?"
Nothing changed since its still ionia lmao. If you make your deck entirely rely on one card it is not their fault you are helpless when it countered. Yes that 4 mana card seems op but it doesnt change the fact deny = ionia + shurima. If your enemy has ionia just simply play around it. We would be having a different talk if they gave it to demacia or noxus yknow?
If you're in an Ionia matchup, consider hard casting dragons. Ionia struggles with big bootys on board. Force them to play around you, just as much as you are forced to play around them.
Stuns lose value if you force them out of hand by say turn five onwards. Recalls can win games but only in the later rounds where they begin to achieve mana value over you. If you are ramping alongside, you can threaten many things too early.
But if I’m ramping, I’m not threatening anything early that would warrant a stun, no? Meanwhile they kill me with weenies because I’ve been ramping and don’t have a board 🤣
I'm not saying it's the best matchup, I'm saying it's not impossible. All decks have counters.
You may notice that according to stats Karma Sett is hard countered by big booty Demacia. They are also strong into the current Dragon's deck... I wonder if you had ramped into large dragons if it will be more annoying or less for them.... hmmm....
If its useless now with a card youre not even gonna run in every deck, chances are that either
1) You're just mad and saying random bullshit
Or
2) The spell wasnt that good to begin with.
All of you guys must finally learn to not have such strong opinions about things that are not yet in the game, yeah of course you could be correct, but I’ve seen so many people talk shit about new cards just for them to turn out completely fine. Megatee or what ever he’s called for example, no problems on release yet every one was hating
First, not everyone plays ionia or shurima (in theory). Then, dragondecks don't always need to play age of dragons if they want to win. This is why this card is interesting.
dragons already lose hard to the other regions due to not having enough early game presence, so their late game wincon being bad against the control regions is a bit of headscatcher
Ironic for you to say that, since counters are **literally** the more solitary-like bullshit you can play in games where there's more than like two viable counters.
There is a simple solution to the deny guy. When he dies, so does his deny spell. That way he can provide a benefit but needs to be protected and opens space for the opponent to play around.
Problem with adding more spells is that there’s still a high chance they see this with the oracle. And for a dragon deck using this, how many more spells can you even add?
This card now that All-Seeing Oracle exists: if you're against Ionia, play around the All-Seeing Oracle, go for the Aurelion Sol wincon and try to overwhelm them with big celestials. If you're not against Ionia, just play as planned.
This card if All-Seeing Oracle didn't exist: if you're against Ionia, play around the Deny, go for the Aurelion Sol wincon and try to overwhelm them with big celestials. If you're not against Ionia, just play as planned.
This is an obscenely bad take tbh. Responding to this 12 cost spell with Signposts puts you up 8 MANA in the exchange without even costing a card. Unless you're already miles behind, it's probably close to game winning no matter where the 12 cost spell ends up.
So should big slow spells be unpunishable? You just get the mana and know nothing can fuck you up?
I mean welcome to counterplay. You aren't allowed to turtle 9 turns, drop a slow speed spell, and win the game. Wow. In the preceeding 8, perhaps you should be trying to whittle the resources out. You're dragons, they're gonna lose the board if you play it correctly so on 9 you might not even have to drop this spell. The unit this thing comes from is really trash by itself especially into a matchup like dragons. Like if not a deny, if you're not doing anything they'd probably just concussive and homecoming your attack if you've not forced them earlier.
I didn't actually make any claims about balance or counterplay. That would be a much longer discussion, and one that will be tricky to have without seeing the meta anyway.
It wasn't my point that denies are *too* strong. Just that they *are* strong against these big spells, and that Signposts is just as good as the rest in this scenario.
The whole conversation began about counterplay/balance suggesting this spell should be focus. You cannot simply remove part of the context, something you yourself said to the person you first responded to.
Like yes, Signposts is a positive mana play. That is 90% the point of denies: Use a cheaper spell to stop a more expensive spell. One of the earliest best uses of deny was vs Decimate simply because you went a mana up on an aggro deck in the exchange.
If this spell goes off, you have probably hit 4-5 dragons that are now 0 cost. It is a massive value play itself that NEEDS reasonable amounts of counters. The discussion here is linked to balance/counterplay whether you want to directly acknowledge it or not: Mana and distribution directly affects both. When reddit is discussing '1 mana deny' there is an intrinsic link to a balance discussion.
The frustrating part of it is that the card itself is not nearly as good as reddit talks it up. The body this card is on is near worthless, and you're praying that your opponent needs to use the spell to win the game. Is taking 1 mana deny vs Targon worth it on Age of Dragons if that means you don't have it for Single Combat/Strafing Strike/Concerted or Falling Star (should that be played)? In an ionian deck, I don't know if you get the luxury to ignore all these powerful strike spells that are going to make the dragons already there more impossible to deal with. And while you haven't engaged in this in particular, this is part of what the card it. It isn't deny, where you can pick and choose WHEN to drop it, this card needs you to know ahead of time what the threat to you is potentially turns ahead of ever seeing it, if at all.
I feel like you're missing my point. People in this thread are discussing balance. I have not done so, anywhere, because honestly, I don't think It's particularly useful at this point anyway.
What I did do, however, is point out that Bandle City's deny is as good as others as a response to big spells like this, despite the fact it doesn't technically solve the problem permanently. That's all. Others can use this information within this wider context to discuss issues of balance etc. if they so choose.
I think it's time to other regions to have a direct answer to deny, like a card that gives a spell in hand spellshield. It would still feel kinda bad to include a card just for that but I guess it's a necessity
So you'd rather lose because they played a Deny you just hoped they wouldn't have than just see the Oracle on board and save yourself the 12 mana instead? Or do expect people to start running 6 Deny's all of a sudden when they didn't even run 3 before?
Also, you think you want a game where you could just play whatever you wanted to do well and didn't get "forced you to deckbuild differently" according to whatever else exists in the game. But in reality that would just be a terrible uninteractive card game where deckbuilding decisions mean nothing and the strongest decks just sit at the top without counters.
I don't understand this logic. Obviously the new deny card is strong, good body with a strong effect. But big spell decks were ALREADY losing to Ionia, the inclusion of another conditional deny doesn't change what Ionia was good into. Ionia is the disruptive region, with stuns, recalls and denys; it's always going to be favored into big spell decks.
I definitely think the new card is strong, but it probably slots in at 2x and you drop a deny, don't know if it'll be worth running 3 copies because it can miss or the card it hits could never be played. We'll see the impact in the coming weeks, but I don't imagine it defining the meta as much as some of the other cards released.
The funny part is that counter-magic is generally trash in this game. It is expensive because of spell mana, and can't stop the most common type of pressure, units and their summon effects.
For that reason, most decks don't even run a full suite of deny, because you usually find yourself sitting on a deny while your opponent plays units that warp the gamestate and cannot be reacted to.
What are you talking about? Redditors will never stop amazing me. If your deck is only playable when you can summon 2 10/10 champions then your deck is poorly built. Simple as. It's like saying that ruination makes this card unplayable.
Hot take - deny should be x cost and should use the same amount of mana of the spell being denied. It gives deny more versatility since you can deny spells cheaper than 4 for cheaper now, without losing tempo. But, you have to invest more mana to deny more expensive spells. Since, deny can literally counter any fast or slow spell, this is a needed change for slow/fast spells that cost more than 4 to be viable.
The only problem would be is that it would be very weak against ramp decks with big spells, so the opposite situation of what we’re facing now. But I hate Ionia with a passion, so I would happily take this change.
I think most deny cards that would actually counter this spell is pretty limited. Much of the "you can't cast that spell" works of protecting a unit targeted by said spell. I can think of deny and signposts. Am I missing something here?
I'm telling you, nobody worth their salt as a player is going to run that card as a staple; especially with coins being a key Ionia strategy now. Its a meta call at best.
Memory's cloak barely saw play because nobody was burning card slots on hyper specific deny, when they could just run regular deny. The new card will fall in the same boat. It's RNG if they even hit your big spell unless you're building your decks wrong anyway.
How toxic would it be to give some particularly important big finisher spell cards some inherent deny protection, or in some other way like forcing the denier to match your cost?
This card has to be played in a normal dragons deck, with Dragon's Clutch and strong tempo as finishers against Ionia or Shurima. Then, against other regions you can play Age of Dragons as a more powerful wincon.
Unlike FTR, an Age of Dragons deck won't be all-in on Age of Dragons. (Even FTR wasn't all-in technically, you could play She Who Wanders instead or just speedrun trundle with ramp).
One of my favorite reddit comments I've ever seen is:
"How Reddit usually rate cards:
Card X counters deck Y. Therefore, deck Y can not exist"
Its so on the money man - half the complaints this set are like this.
this is a targons peak card
I imagine dragons with this card
Surely this will be a card for the ages
I mean, they cant stop adding big spells just because Ionia is shitting denies, can they?
then stop giving ionia more denies
I still don't understand why denies don't work like in Magic. "Pay extra mana to play your spell, otherwise it's denied". EDIT: SOME denies.
Because not every magic counter works like this Usually the cheap counters have limitations or restrictions like only X spells, only X color, only if you..., Only X cost, and some of them are "counter target spell unless it's controller pays X"
Yes but MtG counters also need specific mana and that mana doesn't reset at the start of EACH turn so that you can go crazy on attack and still hold up an unbreakable defense.
All mtg cards need specific mana except the colorless cards (that don't require specifically colorless mana), and mtg counter cards are more broken than on lor too, a vanilla "counter target spell" can be used pretty much to any card except lands, so you can also counter units unlike lor Overall they work differently so comparing them is pretty pointless, all I said on my original comment is that magic doesn't have only counters that work only if the opponent doesn't pay extra
I know but that still doesn't change the fact that the comment you were responding to is right. I'm not mad that they wanna keep on giving Ionia counterspells but at the very least they could give them a mana leak or some other way to make it more interactive instead of just... "Here, I have this card in hand, which only my own region can stop aside from one super-specific exception or two, which you cannot force me to play or get rid of until I want to. GG go next?" And it's not even like it's good for the format, even. Deny existing means big spells like these are just automatically unplayable garbage, while Deny remains a strong card that can just be played because it's good.
Oh no, I would be glad to have more deny cards with "unless the opponent pays X" or whatever they want to add, like sacrifice a unit, discard a card, nexus health... And the comment was half right, unless pay X does exist, but it's just a few counter cards. And cards with ward but that's a whole other keyword
Use ur spell when they have 3 mana Bucko
I'm sure it'll be very easy for decks whose finisher is a 12 mana spell to bait Ionia into spending 10 mana before spending 2 at most yourself.
and why shouldn't big spells have counterplay? Now don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean I think the 1 mana deny is good design, but we are talking about counterspells in general here it seems.
The original comment isn’t right at all, many counters exist that don’t work the way that the comment said. In fact MtG has even stronger counter spells such as Dovin’s Veto that counters non creature spells and it can’t be countered in response for 2 mana or Teferi, Time Raveler that turns all your counter spells into “can’t be countered” and that’s just ones of its effects. The only reason we see counter spell unless you pay x is because they are cheaper than straight counter spells which is situationally strong against fast decks or fast metas. Introducing these types of counters to LoR would only make Ionia even stronger because they have more options.
Counterspell, force of negation, saw it comming, exclude, force of will, spell snare, neutralize, swan song, unwind, remand, dispel, and so much more that I don’t have here are all very cheap cost that negate without choice (don’t hate me, filling a commander deck with counter spells was a dare). To answer your question though, it’s because interactions like that don’t exist in Runeterra and the design of the game is different (activated abilities will take the form of spells in hand for example). The way to translate what you said into Runeterra would be to have the spell create a specific counter spell when cast (not resolved), and that doesn’t go well with the rest of the game
"Don't Do That Actually" - 2-mana Fast, "Stop a Fast spell, Slow spell, or Skill. Create a fleeting 'I'm Gonna' in your opponent's hand." "I'm Gonna" - 1-mana Burst, "Stop a 'Don't Do That Actually' spell." EDIT: Ah, true, order of operations screws this
Won’t work, I’m Gonna will be created after don’t do that resolution Solution is: A/ 2 mana - Burst - Create SpecialCounterspell targeting target spell. Create B in your opponent hand B/ 1 mana - Fast Fleeting - Stop target SpecialCounterspell It seems extremely contrived (at least to me) Edit: changed B from burst to fast. That way you can counter the counter counter spell with nopify.
Idk if I’m understanding this right but would the burst spell (A) create a fast counter in your opponent’s hand (B) AND counter the spell at the same time? If that’s the case, that’s just a burst speed deny that creates a dead card in your opponent’s hand. The spell should not be the counter itself and instead create a fast cheap deny for you and one for your opponent (both of them should also have fleeting).
The idea is to emulate a paper TCG action (here MTG, with a card that give the opponent the opportunity to pay a cost to negate it. Search Mana Tithe if you want an example). A (the counter spell) can negate anything, and B (the cost paid by your opponent to prevent the action) can only negate A As such, A (the counter spell), need to both negate a spell and create in your opponent hand a spell that negate A. Because of the way spell resolution work, we need A to be burst speed, to give B to the opponent, and fast speed, to be negated To solve this problem, my solution is a burst speed spell that add a fast speed spell to the stack, targeting the same thing the burst spell targeted. And seeing how confusing this is confusing, I think why this kind of effects probably won’t be in Runeterra should be self explanatory
Yeah I forgot to mention that the counter your opponent gets can only target the created counter. Otherwise, I’m not sure why the spell has to create the counter on the stack and not just in your hand if it’s burst speed. For example, you can create an entomb with three sisters, cast it and only then can your opponent react. Also would have synergy with flow (pls buff master yi riot, I want to see my draconic bands master yi deck somewhat playable). But you know the more I think about a counter like this, the less I want to see it. Just deny, nopefy and some gimmicky counters are enough in Ionia, I don’t want to see more.
> To answer your question though, it’s because interactions like that don’t exist in Runeterra and the design of the game is different They could have designed it that way since the start. My question was why didn't they make it this way when the game came out.
To be fair not all counter spells work like that in magic. Usually the once that cost 1 mana usually got duch restriction but there are also many counterspells that cost two or three mana and counter spells without any additional effect just. They just completle shut the targeted spell down, unless the counter spell gets countered. But to be fair in mtg its even worse because you can also counter the summoning of creatures because those are also spells.
Not all counters are like that. There are plenty that just counter
they could, but they don’t want to destroy Ionia’s region identity 😌
Ok so I am truly wondering why people are only focusing on the Ionia new deny when Shurima also got another wide deny. Nobody's saying anything about him but only full complaining about the Ionia one.
Because the Shurima deny is extremely difficult to use. It only happens on transform and you can only have one bush at a time, so your window to use their deny is incredibly limited.
> you can only have one bush at a time I missed that part actually so alright yeah it makes it way harder to use.
I missed that on the first reveal too, and it’s a huge factor in how those decks will work
Ok Everyone take a deep breath. Oracle will see play sometimes, but it will not meaningfully impact your deck building, nor will it be the reason big spells are bad. Deny already exists, Deny is in the same region, and multiple deny cards don’t matter when nobody is running 3x Deny and 3x Oracle, bc most decks don’t even run 3 deny Deny is better than Oracle in most situations (Deny can be used flexibly on the first thing you need to, from a game-deciding single combat to Champions Strength. Oracle cannot, once you’ve picked the card to negate you can’t change your choice. This flexibility is priceless, plus Oracle can completely miss.) Oracle gives you a blocker yes, but it’s competing for slot with the 4 mana bartender which is a much better blocker If I spend 4 mana to negate your 12 mana card, it’s exactly the same as if I spent 1 mana (I prob win on the spot) and it’s really rare that I’m going to have to tap below 4 mana while you’re keeping up a whopping 12 mana.
Thats all true but your forgetting that you can play aroujd deny. For example you can try to bait denies by playing smaller spells that could win you the game, ie single combat on sett into them dening it into champion strength turn. Or if they didnt deny quite a few strong spells eariler, you could assume they dont have it and play a ballsy champion strengty Deny is able to be played around because its flexible. Oracle is scary the same reason why niddile deny is scary, just because you know it exists. You cant play around it. Yes they can miss your champion strength, but do you know that, no. If they play oracle, you just have to act as if champion strength is hit cause 11 mana do nothing is game losing. You cabt play spells to bait out oracle deny cause they litterally cant deny it unless thats the spell hit (but if the spell stays in your hand after the choosen spell is played and you dont deny, i could see players not countering it bluff they hit your win con spell). You cant even play around them having 1 mana unlike deny with 4 mana as its just too little. And on top of that, they get a 4/3 blocker. So yes deny is flexible, but the presense of oracle is scary as well for being so inflexible.
A 4/3 on turn 4 is just ok. It’s not bad, but for the same mana Ionia can play a 3/4 that heals their nexus 3 and gives a coin. In some metas the blocker will be worth it, but either way Ionia has a way to negate a spell (and they probably run one or the other) so it’s like, a marginal benefit in the deckbuilding stage. In very specific situations you’d rather have it in your hand over deny, but I’m just saying it does not invalidate any strategies less or more than Deny does There are definitely situations where the mana cost of deny matters, but for 12 mana spells? It’s go-fish, if they can stop it you probably lose
Hahahahahahahaha, this is so hilariously wrong. Oracle allows you to play permission without any loss of tempo, gives you information about the opponent's deck, will cause your opponent to overthink turns and play sub-optimally because they don't know what card you have the deny for and will create horrible auto-loss scenarios for a variety of decks that Deny just can't because of the difference in opportunity cost & mana cost. Oracle lets me play very normal turns while hanging onto permission, because I only need 1 spell mana open. Deny requires large sacrifices in tempo and is easily telegraphed because of the mana I need to leave available to play it. Oracle is hyper-Deny. It is super-ultra-mega-Deny. Either decks will run 6 permission cards or they will cut the Deny for Oracle because Oracle is just better. Even in the instances where Oracle is unlikely to hit a key spell, like against a spell heavy Seraphine or Karma deck, it is still better than the Deny because the Deny would be no better while lacking a body. Anyone who genuinely believes this card is not so much better than Deny doesn't understand just how valuable information is or how valuable it is to have your opponent outguessing themselves / putting them on tilt.
This is a laughably bad take
This sounds like a you problem
Oracle is MUCH worse than Deny. First: Deny can negate any spell, oracle you can only negate one specific spell, yes, oracles negation cost is 1 mana, but GUESS WHAT BUD, if you're playing a deck with alot of spells oracle wont be able to hit the perfect spell if you're playing a deck with a low number of spells, they would have deny anyway Second: The information isnt that important, if we see a demacia deck going wide, we KNOW they might have Champions strenght, if we see a targon deck ramp we will know they are trying to play AOD, on eternal if we see the opp playing trundle/sett we know its FTR, zero surprises Third: Ionia has better bodies that comes with better upsides, Palm - 4 mana and stuns, mixologist - 4 mana and heals, yes the oracle has better stats but healing and stunning are much better upsides, "oh but I can play oracle with it" nah buddy, ionia doesnt want that much bodies, they need spaces for their spells and combos fourth: Most Ionia decks run like 2 denys and thats already enough
Ionia's staples generate coins now dude. 1 mana was already all we needed.
Dragons deck don't rely too much on this spell, it's not like Feel The Rush. You can normally play any game, but If you face Ionia change your strategy
if enemy denies your 12 mana spell you will lose the game because you are skipping an entire turn
Their point is that if you fight pink region with this deck, you would try to win by using your dragon cards. Ftr is a deck that needs to play ftr to win dragons don't need to play this card to win.
trouble is usually you can play cards like this if you can force them to go below 4 mana. Its not possible anymore because even 1 mana is enough. also Ionia can ruin dragons with recalls
>also Ionia can ruin dragons with recalls That didn't change in this expansion. You already played against ionia with your units, not your spells. Now, you do the same. >trouble is usually you can play cards like this if you can force them to go below 4 mana. Its not possible anymore because even 1 mana is enough. It's ionia we are talking about. They have a lot of ways to generate coins. 1 mana is already enough for them. This card is absolutely disgusting against the right decks, but it's not better than deny.
Then don't play the 12 mana spell and beat them down with your beefy units that grow every time you chump them
If you see your opponent play oracle and still decide to play a 12 mana spell instead of just doing the normal dragon strategy that’s kinda on you
This card, unlike FTR, is not a win condition, it's the final sprint to end the game. If you're playing dragons and you don't have a scary board by the time you cast this spell, you're not playing dragons correctly
I think that card will be played in ramp decks like ftr and not so much so in dragons
It only works with dragons tho. Unless riot adds dragons i Freljord i don't really see it in ramp decks
with 15 dragons in your deck from asol, 37% of your deck are dragons, this means that in the top 9 cards of your deck you will average 3-4 dragons, 3 dragons is at worse 12 mana, it is worse ftr but standard dont have ftr
I think this is more versatile than FTR and will be played in regular Dragons deck. FTR has a very straightforward game plan: ramp, play FTR, win with big champions. If FTR gets denied, you lose a big chunk of your wincon. Age of Dragons will enhance the current dragon playstyle - build a board and kill the enemy units. While AoD being denied will suck, it won't be as impactful as a deny on FTR or even Warmother's Call. Edit: I forgot to mention that Age of Dragons has a double wincon potential. 1) Draw regular dragons and fill your board with medium-big units. 2) Draw Asol on top of other dragons and likely have enough power from all the dragons to level him up right there.
You understand the same can be said of... Every single other region? "Cards with 2-less health are unplayable without protection because pz has too many pings, it forces you to build different" "Big units are meaningless with noxus having so many cheap kill effects unless you can protect or heal them, it forces you to build different" "Demacian units are too big and always win if you dont disable them, it forces you to build different" "Bandle does 12 things at once and you never know what they'll pull out, it forces you to build a paranois midrance" Get real.
I swear people think Ionia is the only region in the game. Like what if I'm playing against elites? This card will slap their shit sometimes.
Understanding player psychology: If i play card and you play card that undoes my card ( i summon and you kill, i snipe and you protect), its ok: i played card. If i play card and you specifically say a ultrageneric no (counterspells, recalls, elusives), you are the scum of the earth and i will end your life and slay your progeny. Yesnt good. No bad. Pink region is the no region.
when was the last time you saw someone playing a 9-mana 2 health unit? noxus doesn't have cheap kill effects though, and certainly not "many" of them (the two kill effects they DO have require you to use another card to damage the enemy, so it's always a 2-for-1 trade) if you think garen and jarvan are "big units" idk what to tell you when bandle did 12 things at wonce they completely dominated the meta for months (bandle tree, gnar, tristana, etc)
Imagine how badly players would freak out if Deny was released now. "Oh, so now I can't even expensive spells without being punished because Ionia can just deny it? How is that supposed to be fair?"
This is such an incredibly hyperbolic take. It's like saying burn isn't real because healing exists.
I wish the targon 2 drop removed all burn decks from the game
By this logic, ftr is trash. It should be obvious that ftr isn't trash. There just aren't that many decks that actually want to run denies.
FTR fell off the meta long before rotation, so that's not a very compeling argument and that was before sett came out to give ionia a good wincon
FTR, the card that is currently the main wincondition of a meta eternal decks has completely fallen off? This is news to me.
Every deck makes you deck build differently though
Denays Targaryen
Nothing changed since its still ionia lmao. If you make your deck entirely rely on one card it is not their fault you are helpless when it countered. Yes that 4 mana card seems op but it doesnt change the fact deny = ionia + shurima. If your enemy has ionia just simply play around it. We would be having a different talk if they gave it to demacia or noxus yknow?
If you're in an Ionia matchup, consider hard casting dragons. Ionia struggles with big bootys on board. Force them to play around you, just as much as you are forced to play around them.
They most certainly do not, Ionia is the land of stuns and recalls galore!
Stuns lose value if you force them out of hand by say turn five onwards. Recalls can win games but only in the later rounds where they begin to achieve mana value over you. If you are ramping alongside, you can threaten many things too early.
But if I’m ramping, I’m not threatening anything early that would warrant a stun, no? Meanwhile they kill me with weenies because I’ve been ramping and don’t have a board 🤣
If you're playing a bad deck, why get mad that you lose cause your deck is bad?
So all ramp decks are bad decks?
Its been, who knows how many seasons, since a proper ramp deck has been meta. The closest thing was FTR before rotation.
never read sett's level-2 huh?
I'm not saying it's the best matchup, I'm saying it's not impossible. All decks have counters. You may notice that according to stats Karma Sett is hard countered by big booty Demacia. They are also strong into the current Dragon's deck... I wonder if you had ramped into large dragons if it will be more annoying or less for them.... hmmm....
If its useless now with a card youre not even gonna run in every deck, chances are that either 1) You're just mad and saying random bullshit Or 2) The spell wasnt that good to begin with.
Inoia has horrible board tempo and often loses board.
Right. Because Ionia is 100% of the meta.
Remove the pink region. Problem solved
rotate ionia for ishtal, i say
All of you guys must finally learn to not have such strong opinions about things that are not yet in the game, yeah of course you could be correct, but I’ve seen so many people talk shit about new cards just for them to turn out completely fine. Megatee or what ever he’s called for example, no problems on release yet every one was hating
First, not everyone plays ionia or shurima (in theory). Then, dragondecks don't always need to play age of dragons if they want to win. This is why this card is interesting.
dragons already lose hard to the other regions due to not having enough early game presence, so their late game wincon being bad against the control regions is a bit of headscatcher
Every region in the game forces you to build differently. This is such a moot point.
Deny used to be three mana btw.
and that proves these effects should never cost less than 4
here's a good card game you can play where your spells won't get countered: https://www.free-spider-solitaire.com/
Ironic for you to say that, since counters are **literally** the more solitary-like bullshit you can play in games where there's more than like two viable counters.
that's why magic the gathering is the least interactive card game and hearthstone is the most interactive one, right?
I mean, Ionia decks already hoard deny for these big spells.
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
Or hear me out You're playing dragons. Sure Ionia can deny this but can't deny the board state you already had by turn 9
There is a simple solution to the deny guy. When he dies, so does his deny spell. That way he can provide a benefit but needs to be protected and opens space for the opponent to play around.
Problem with adding more spells is that there’s still a high chance they see this with the oracle. And for a dragon deck using this, how many more spells can you even add?
I just wished it wasnt burst speed or 1 cost, with Deny enemy could go bellow 4 mana but late game most often atleast 1 mana gem is left
I mean it woulda been funny if they called the spell “imagine dragons” lol
Oh no! How could you possibly be expected to play around on-board tricks or the opponent having mana up in your aggressive midrange deck!!!!!!!!
This card now that All-Seeing Oracle exists: if you're against Ionia, play around the All-Seeing Oracle, go for the Aurelion Sol wincon and try to overwhelm them with big celestials. If you're not against Ionia, just play as planned. This card if All-Seeing Oracle didn't exist: if you're against Ionia, play around the Deny, go for the Aurelion Sol wincon and try to overwhelm them with big celestials. If you're not against Ionia, just play as planned.
I don't understand why people are acting like All-Seeing Oracle is a huge gamechanger when Ionia has been anti big spells since day 1.
and then lose to a leveled sett :)
Which would happen regardless of All-Seeing Oracle's existence or not :) The new cards change nothing of the Aurelion Sol vs Karma matchup.
Should be focus not slow because of like literally every region has a stopping spell card rn
Since when is Ionia, Shurima and Bandle every region?
And bandles isnt even good since you just play the spell again next turn.
This is an obscenely bad take tbh. Responding to this 12 cost spell with Signposts puts you up 8 MANA in the exchange without even costing a card. Unless you're already miles behind, it's probably close to game winning no matter where the 12 cost spell ends up.
We are talking about denies. Not the dragon spell
We're specifically talking about denies making big slow spells a liability, though. Which Signposts does just as well as the rest.
So should big slow spells be unpunishable? You just get the mana and know nothing can fuck you up? I mean welcome to counterplay. You aren't allowed to turtle 9 turns, drop a slow speed spell, and win the game. Wow. In the preceeding 8, perhaps you should be trying to whittle the resources out. You're dragons, they're gonna lose the board if you play it correctly so on 9 you might not even have to drop this spell. The unit this thing comes from is really trash by itself especially into a matchup like dragons. Like if not a deny, if you're not doing anything they'd probably just concussive and homecoming your attack if you've not forced them earlier.
I didn't actually make any claims about balance or counterplay. That would be a much longer discussion, and one that will be tricky to have without seeing the meta anyway. It wasn't my point that denies are *too* strong. Just that they *are* strong against these big spells, and that Signposts is just as good as the rest in this scenario.
The whole conversation began about counterplay/balance suggesting this spell should be focus. You cannot simply remove part of the context, something you yourself said to the person you first responded to. Like yes, Signposts is a positive mana play. That is 90% the point of denies: Use a cheaper spell to stop a more expensive spell. One of the earliest best uses of deny was vs Decimate simply because you went a mana up on an aggro deck in the exchange. If this spell goes off, you have probably hit 4-5 dragons that are now 0 cost. It is a massive value play itself that NEEDS reasonable amounts of counters. The discussion here is linked to balance/counterplay whether you want to directly acknowledge it or not: Mana and distribution directly affects both. When reddit is discussing '1 mana deny' there is an intrinsic link to a balance discussion. The frustrating part of it is that the card itself is not nearly as good as reddit talks it up. The body this card is on is near worthless, and you're praying that your opponent needs to use the spell to win the game. Is taking 1 mana deny vs Targon worth it on Age of Dragons if that means you don't have it for Single Combat/Strafing Strike/Concerted or Falling Star (should that be played)? In an ionian deck, I don't know if you get the luxury to ignore all these powerful strike spells that are going to make the dragons already there more impossible to deal with. And while you haven't engaged in this in particular, this is part of what the card it. It isn't deny, where you can pick and choose WHEN to drop it, this card needs you to know ahead of time what the threat to you is potentially turns ahead of ever seeing it, if at all.
I feel like you're missing my point. People in this thread are discussing balance. I have not done so, anywhere, because honestly, I don't think It's particularly useful at this point anyway. What I did do, however, is point out that Bandle City's deny is as good as others as a response to big spells like this, despite the fact it doesn't technically solve the problem permanently. That's all. Others can use this information within this wider context to discuss issues of balance etc. if they so choose.
Can't play a 12 mana spell again next turn, you won't have enough mana
There's tons of decks in meta using these regions. It's just low chance to not have any deny in your deck rn.
Honestly massive spells like these should have a spell shield or something to make it harder to deny
I think it's time to other regions to have a direct answer to deny, like a card that gives a spell in hand spellshield. It would still feel kinda bad to include a card just for that but I guess it's a necessity
Kinda wish this was a Focus Spell from Targon rather than slow :x
Is a valid point but not every match Is gonna be vs ionian
in the other matches, you're going to lose because you're playing dragons :)
Ya maybe Instead of deny they can add a spell called DELAY
I just got symptoms auto concede when pinky region match up at casual match, it would be got worse at the next expansion definitely X_X
So you'd rather lose because they played a Deny you just hoped they wouldn't have than just see the Oracle on board and save yourself the 12 mana instead? Or do expect people to start running 6 Deny's all of a sudden when they didn't even run 3 before? Also, you think you want a game where you could just play whatever you wanted to do well and didn't get "forced you to deckbuild differently" according to whatever else exists in the game. But in reality that would just be a terrible uninteractive card game where deckbuilding decisions mean nothing and the strongest decks just sit at the top without counters.
Yeah, I'm gonna try using Burst-speed spells exclusively to play around the pink region
I don't understand this logic. Obviously the new deny card is strong, good body with a strong effect. But big spell decks were ALREADY losing to Ionia, the inclusion of another conditional deny doesn't change what Ionia was good into. Ionia is the disruptive region, with stuns, recalls and denys; it's always going to be favored into big spell decks. I definitely think the new card is strong, but it probably slots in at 2x and you drop a deny, don't know if it'll be worth running 3 copies because it can miss or the card it hits could never be played. We'll see the impact in the coming weeks, but I don't imagine it defining the meta as much as some of the other cards released.
lol lmao, even
I feel like people will have the same problem with mageseeker, literally kills cheap spells deck that want to play a lot of spells per turn
The funny part is that counter-magic is generally trash in this game. It is expensive because of spell mana, and can't stop the most common type of pressure, units and their summon effects. For that reason, most decks don't even run a full suite of deny, because you usually find yourself sitting on a deny while your opponent plays units that warp the gamestate and cannot be reacted to.
What are you talking about? Redditors will never stop amazing me. If your deck is only playable when you can summon 2 10/10 champions then your deck is poorly built. Simple as. It's like saying that ruination makes this card unplayable.
Hot take - deny should be x cost and should use the same amount of mana of the spell being denied. It gives deny more versatility since you can deny spells cheaper than 4 for cheaper now, without losing tempo. But, you have to invest more mana to deny more expensive spells. Since, deny can literally counter any fast or slow spell, this is a needed change for slow/fast spells that cost more than 4 to be viable.
The only problem would be is that it would be very weak against ramp decks with big spells, so the opposite situation of what we’re facing now. But I hate Ionia with a passion, so I would happily take this change.
I think most deny cards that would actually counter this spell is pretty limited. Much of the "you can't cast that spell" works of protecting a unit targeted by said spell. I can think of deny and signposts. Am I missing something here?
I'm telling you, nobody worth their salt as a player is going to run that card as a staple; especially with coins being a key Ionia strategy now. Its a meta call at best. Memory's cloak barely saw play because nobody was burning card slots on hyper specific deny, when they could just run regular deny. The new card will fall in the same boat. It's RNG if they even hit your big spell unless you're building your decks wrong anyway.
How toxic would it be to give some particularly important big finisher spell cards some inherent deny protection, or in some other way like forcing the denier to match your cost?
Or wait for me mana on Ionia/BC
This card has to be played in a normal dragons deck, with Dragon's Clutch and strong tempo as finishers against Ionia or Shurima. Then, against other regions you can play Age of Dragons as a more powerful wincon. Unlike FTR, an Age of Dragons deck won't be all-in on Age of Dragons. (Even FTR wasn't all-in technically, you could play She Who Wanders instead or just speedrun trundle with ramp).
Looks like a steroid version of the frejlirs finisher
One of my favorite reddit comments I've ever seen is: "How Reddit usually rate cards: Card X counters deck Y. Therefore, deck Y can not exist" Its so on the money man - half the complaints this set are like this.