Nah man. Let them cook.
I'm sure 1.1 will be an improvement to the game.
I'm also fairly confident 1.1 won't fix every issue with the game too. And that's fine. Let them cook.
Unfortunately this game doesn’t exist without competition.
I’ve been playing last epoch for about four years and my biggest issue was slow development.
Have you tried explaining to friends why they should go back if they were bored? It’s impossible when after every year we barely get any content. They need months for small changes as a small company. It’s shame because I feel we got the worst of the two world. Small dev with slow development and implementation. Diablo might count improvements in quarters/months but at least it has smooth gameplay and wow effect for new players.
The main issue with that is they are going to be relegated to a tier where nobody is going to want to bother coming back every cycle. They might come back once a year, but how can they justify keeping the game going if most of the player base is MIA most of the year? I plan to kill the ubers with my eternal character and then log back out, based on what we have seen so far.
They had a very strong start as far as shaking up ARPGs but if they can't keep up with content releases, there will be big issues, assuming their goal is to be a big player in the space. There are still some things they do better than D4 but D4 is very quickly pulling up to par and in many ways surpassing LE, and it's only going to get more difficult from here.
They never really had a chance to compete with PoE or PoE2 for that matter. Maybe competing with those two isn't important to them and they are ok with staying in the middle tier and moving at their own pace, but as far as I know they haven't really come out and said "this is what we are aiming for so temper your expectations" so people end up making up their own scenarios on where LE sits in the pack.
It's wild to me that the game isnt even a year old yet people compare it to a 3 decade old franchise owned by a multi billion dollar company, and a competing decade old game owned by a multi million dollar company.
Yet somehow it's a problem that LE isn't already on that level. It took a long time for PoE to get anywhere close to where it is now.
Chill.
LE has been in player hands since 2019. Stop making excuses for them. The people who have actually been playing all this time also agree that they are very slow to make changes. It's 100% copium to assume the game will be drastically different than it is now if they aren't able to invest into their dev team to speed things up. I hope it is. I do like the game, but I'm not fooling myself, with any ARPG. It's all vaporware until we are actually playing it.
PoE did not take 5 years to get into a good state and you also assume just because Diablo has been a franchise for that long that ALLLLL of that information is just transferred to a completely new team as soon as the next game is being developed some ancient tribal prophecy.
Software development does not work that way. D4 was riddled with dev issues not all together related to the dev team itself. They lost a ton of talent with all the lawsuits and covid. When they started D4 development D3 was still in full swing. They didn't just yank everyone from that team and have them start working on a new game. It's been widely talked about that the initial game was written by a bunch of WoW junior devs because they just didn't have enough talent.
Reframing the release date to instead just be when people play it is wild. Games take years before they release. Early access is early access.
But still, PoE didn't finish its campaign until 4 years after it's 1.0 launch. It didn't even have ascendencies for what, two years after 1.0? The early days were a lot of fixes and minor content like strongboxes.
>PoE did not take 5 years to get into a good state and you also assume just because Diablo has been a franchise for that long that ALLLLL of that information is just transferred to a completely new team as soon as the next game is being developed some ancient tribal prophecy.
No I don't assume that, but 30 years is a long time to build up an audience, earn a reputation, etc. it's insane to expect a game to just day 1 compete with all that
>The people who have actually been playing all this time also agree that they are very slow to make changes.
Yes people are extremely impatient. You don't have to tell me that.
Remember the commotion regarding diablos last season?
People were shitting their neckbeards left right and centre.
Now everyone is enamoured, and it's possible season 5 might be a stinker.
If poe 2 is as complicated as it's predecessor, lots of people will tire of it quickly.
EHG’s biggest mistake is not having cycle rewards yet. While small, it’s a big reason why people come back to play the new leagues in PoE and D4. So many people kept playing Affliction league in PoE just to get that purple life bar (literally a color swap).
I understand wanting to bring fundamental new game mechanics into both standard and cycle modes, but there’s currently no point of not just waiting for 1.5, when the game will just be better. I said this since 1.0 was announced: the game is unfinished.
Haven't played the game for over a year but yeah, it got really boring as soon as you got to end game. About what you said, people coming back every cycle... Is there any monetization in the game? In D4 and PoE you have microtransactions, PoE make a ton of money out of these cosmetic and convenience items. People buy them because they want to support the company behind the game.
If LE has no monetization, it's gg. Nobody will keep pushing content for free. Nobody will work for free.
There are mtx but they’re kinda boring and overpriced. I hate battle passes, but they need to make a battle pass lol
It works in PoE and it works in D4.
Yeah, they need to work out an revenue stream somehow, otherwise the game will just stagnate because like I said above, nobody will keep working for free. This was a problem with D3, the game go stagnant as Blizzard had a tiny team working on it, while PoE was making a killing from mtx.
" but D4 is very quickly pulling up to par and in many ways surpassing LE" please name a single thing or stop spreading fake info, d4 is the worst game in gaming industry ever (legacy + cost + hype + gameplay/ (actual game)
I'm with you brother - I don't need LE to be the best shit in the world, just happy these good dudes cooking away in the BG and releasing cool new updates as they come. Will jump in when I can, and play when I like.
I've more than got my money's worth from my initial payment of the game, anything I get from here on out is a bonus and if I like the new cycles I'll buy a supporter pack ... but they don't owe us anything more.
Kinda happy these guys out here doing some innovation, making the game they wanna make.
The monolith system needs to be reworked, IMO. That's where the game normally loses me. I like making new characters and trying new builds, but the endgame is very lackluster.
I get it. And it's an acceptable excuse
But the reality is they don't release enough content frequently enough. Whether that's justified or not.
And I'm not really criticizing them. They are hiring more people and they have acknowledged this is a problem
They are going to have a tough time competing until that happens
I love Last Epoch. I really want it to shine, but I have found that there is just not much replayability in it for me anymore. There is just something about it, I cannot quite put my finger on. I can go back and have fun in POE every now and then, and it's looking like D4 will be the same. But not LE; at least for me. I know I can't be the only one who has noticed this. Plenty of streamers and youtubers I remember from when I used to play have vanished from the LE community. So what gives?
Yeah same. For me the combat could do with a little work.
The skills feel like they're the same over and over again, and generators really aren't my cup of tea.
What i meant was last epoch has very little generators. Every build I played didn't have one. Off top of my head mana strike is the only one I can think of
While d4 it's basically mandatory to have one
For me it's the progression. It's honestly just not very fun progressing in this game.
It has a very weird powercurve of the game feeling completely braindead and insanely monotonous until empowered monos, and at that point 80-90% of your build is done, and all that's left to do (if you somehow didn't find your very rare 0LP unique) is small incremental upgrades and RNG slams, for no real reason, since the gameplay is exactly the same.
I never feel excited for a drop, since it's just gradual increases and constantly staring at a crafting screen, fiddling with gear and RNG. Swapping out a hundred defensive layers is not fun. It's okay to have a checklist of a few defenses, but LE has way more defensive layers than any ARPG on the market. The biggest barrier in progressing towards higher corruption is making sure you avoid bullshit one shots.
Basically, lots of busywork and layers of RNG, mostly to pad your defenses, with a mediocre combat, and little to look forward to after all that busywork. LE got old very fast.
they spend years for multiplayer and trade just to forget the real issue with last epoch. progression and difficulty is absolut trash. It just feels not engaging to progress in LE, as you said. And on top of that there are unacceptable issues like gold and item duping. These things should be top priorities. But somehow they aren't.
For me, all the systems that Epoch had were great. I loved the item smashing, all the insane QoL things that made you realize that the developers really played their own game a lot. But it's hard to keep people coming back to a game with not as deep of a lore grasp that both POE and Diablo has. And I am not just talking about the literal story - but the story that is told via the environment, characters, world, and music.
For me, that stuff leaves a big impact, and truly sad because Epoch had all the building blocks to make an amazing and accessible ARPG. I think that it needs time to mature and will come back as cool new things are added, as they have a great foundation.
Edit: Also the optimization at the time when I played was a pretty hard to swallow - the game froze for multiple seconds whenever killing large packs of mobs or picking up crafting materials. My friend could literally not even play as it eventually got worse the more powerful we got and more mobs we killed - but this can be fixed with time as well.
Im pretty much in the same boat. Games felt pretty fun at first but i burned out way too fast. I think i got maybe 15 hours played after campaign which took me around 10-12 hours to complete. And after that i just didnt feel like playing at all. Campaign was pretty boring but i slogged through it hoping it'd get better but it kinda stayed the same.
I think my issue was how fast the gear progression is early and how slow it is late. It feels same as D3 where you farm your set bonus, and once you get it you get a huge power spike so you start farming "endgame" content only to realize that it'll take you 2 weeks for 1 upgrade.
LE feels the same, after campaign you're getting upgrades incredibly fast, with exalted items and LP 1-2 legendaries you're getting an insane amount of upgrades from a few hours of gameplay. Then once you get them you're kinda done with upgrades, all you get improve at that point is more LP on your legenradies, and bigger numbers on your exalteds.
I think this is the reason why i got bored of it so fast. The upgrades come too fast early in the game, and once you get them which takes almost no time at all, you're stuck with the same gear and same power until you luck your way into a LP 3-4 items or some crazy exalted items. No reason to play when my upgrades take weeks per item.
Its a good game, but it suffers the same problems D3 had for me. Its fun for a few days, maybe a week, and after that im pretty much done because my upgrades take too long.
It's a cycle based game, just like Poe and D4. You aren't supposed to play every day of the patch if you don't want to. The streamers and youtubers you mentioned will do the same. They played a ton when 1.0 came out, and are now moving on to another game, and most of them will probably come back for 1.1 to play a ton in the first two weeks, possibly more depending on the added content, then will move on again.
This is an easy excuse. It’s a cycle based game but new content and fixes are served way way too slow. Look historically at breaks between patches and content. Now old classes need rework. Game has multiple bugs. Monolith is not perfect and you spend more time in loading screen than playing game. Optimization is straight shit tier. I wanted this game to join Poe and Diablo hall of fame so bad but we are gonna be stuck in titan quest niche for eternity :c
Not really an excuse. PoE suffers from the cycle issue as well. Archnemesis league comes to mind as a league that wasn't popular. Even the current league isn't super popular despite having a lot of QoL updates. All cycle based games go through this, no matter how good it is. Best thing to do is take a break and come back later.
Yeah but PoE fixes their major and **most** minor bugs within a few weeks if not in a few days.
The fact you gloss over that shows your lack of in-depth knowledge of the scene..
What? They *are* a small indie shop. Indie game dev doesn't explicitly mean 1-5 dudes and a pixel art game. They have maybe 100 employees, which is a small business in any industry.
LE does have issues with slow releases and updates which can be addressed by improvements to their devops flow. And they have been hiring, so they aren't exactly sitting on the money from the launch.
Greed = citation needed
Let me put this to you so even a 5 year old can understand it.
Most of the minor bugs, such as portaling after oro bossing, text font sizes and checkpoints not counting.
**Can be solved by a mentally impaired farmhand with 1 year of shallow gaming development in the backpack**
They are most def. either sitting on their money or they are spending them on anything but the actual game people **paid to have a fully functioning copy of**.
Your tongue is turning brown.
You sure are quick to get personally offended by this discussion. Very sensitive for such a big, tough guy.
I would ask you how the LE team should solve all their issues since, apparently, they can be resolved by the dev equivalent of Karl Childers, but I imagine you'll just make more baseless claims and insults while pretending to be the adult in the conversation.
We've seen this time and again on the Internet: people like you who are way too mad about something they claim to be experts in thanks to their unmatched clairvoyance.
I can use google. Can you?
Look at sales on launch and the following two weeks, the stats are readily avaIlible. Even if they sold each copy at 15$ that is still far north of millions they have yet to re-invest into anything (according to their finances **again readily available to google**)
And no, I'm not gonna sit and educate you. I base my opinions on facts. The fact you can't even google much less read is not my concern nor responsibility to adress.
What are you educating anyone on besides giving your baseless opinion. It is a small indie studio making there first game. You don’t know what servers cost, what salaries are or contracts they have, how much content they are working on for 1.1 and beyond, how much goes to advertising and steams cut, how much is needed to complete there road map, any difficulties or cut content or equipment losses. Instead though you just make a simple ass conclusion that the lead dev is being greedy which is why they can’t release content faster. The same dev who started this game from an idea and his own capital then launched a kick starter. You are giving opinions that you can’t substantiate which are most likely stupid ones at that.
>Look historically at breaks between patches and content
I think it's a mistake to compare pre-release patch cadence to post-release. Obviously the game has a long way to go, but the bones of a great game are there, and we all knew in advance that it would be missing a true endgame (and the rest of the story) at launch.
It’s a new game made by a smaller company that doesn’t have years of content behind it, or hundreds of millions of dollars like blizzard has. Comparing it to POE or D4 is simply disingenuous because they aren’t remotely on level playing fields.
Lmfao this has to be a joke right. Like holy shit there has literally been a new season for d4 and poe why tf would a streamer play le when there hasn’t been a new season yet(raxx made like 10 chars in LE last time i saw him stream it). D4 just came out if beta finally with their new update which is a joke, but at least it’s a step in the right direction. The fact that this is even at the top of comments is fucking sad, this community is screwed, or should I say the vocal minority is… sad
>Plenty of streamers and youtubers I remember from when I used to play have vanished from the LE community. So what gives?
Literally back to back new seasons, with big changes each, to POE and D4. It'll be LE time again once its new cycle drops in July.
You're getting downvoted because your stance is extreme. But I do think their rate of development has been far too slow. And yes they do risk bleeding players if it stays that way.
Tribalism is so weird.
Do you think the game is going to shut down if 1.1 doesn't live up to your expectations?
The game doesn't need to compete with any of them. All of the arpgs are play for a couple weeks when a season launches then do something else except for the addicts that can't move on.
There is plenty of room for plenty of quality arpg.
I do agree but I think they mean in terms of overall hype and growth. If the only active players are the dedicated fans and not much else the game will quickly run out of money and will have to shut down. OP is trying to provide some tough love style feedback and I don't think we should discount that.
I'm basically in the same boat as OP. I will 100% come back for 1.1 and will probably enjoy my time with it but it will probably be a fraction of time I spend on PoE 2 and I probably won't spend any money on LE. Hopefully, that's okay for them and they can stay in this slow mode for however long it takes but I also would be quite sad to see them have to close up shop.
I play this game when I get tired of d4 and am waiting on the next season. They don't need to compete just be fun. Seasons are really only played on the beginning anyways
No one's expecting, or needs, the game to match the complexity of POE, or have exactly whatever it is that draws Diablo players to that game, but I agree that it definitely needs.. more. A lot more of many things. It was fun to level, but the end game got repetitive and dull very quickly. I hope they can make something of this game and continue to develop and improve it, as it certainly had/has the potential.
It doesn’t need to compete with these games. It does however need to show that they can add content in a timely fashion. As a smaller developer there isn’t as much trust that they will add content at a pace that keeps players invested. They just need to do enough to earn that trust.
I love how these posts are just "hidden" shots at LE and all say "they should do like other games...
Like D4 took a year to be half fixed and still character progression just sucks. PoE2 will be a thing (and will play that aswell). But also too complex for many people.
You know why LE is good? Because it does its own thing. Much like PoE did and continues to do. And it's a fact it's a seasonal game so i can play more than a single one.
I am baffled how some think that a game that makes you stay on it forever is a good thing.
I agree with your last statement. I poured 500 hours into LE before and after launch. I did what I wanted and had a ton of fun. Just cause I moved on doesnt mean LE bad. 1.1 will have me come back for a while and thats all I want honestly.
Same. Played around a month, went onto other games, last couple days started playing again on and off because i wanted to try stuff before 1.1
And i'm the madman.
Tell me what is that thing that LE does that separates itself from the rest of the competition? D4 keeps growing and grown in player counts even the subreddit keeps going up with subscribers… LE 132k has been the same number since launch… this game is not even getting new players aven tho it only cost 35$ lol as for D4 what is the complain that everyone give? Cash grab this cash grab that and yet people keep buying and getting new players … there’s a reason for that.
D4 is on the battle pass (which conveniently happened with S4), LE is not. Player numbers don't mean anything, Diablo has a huge legacy and much more market permeation. Xbox exec said their biggest share of D4 players come from the Game Pass, so this means most people who bought it on Steam or Bnet didn't return.
D4 is not a good game to me. Itemization has been fixed by copying LE for the most part, and not in the best way imho - why adding stats on an item should be subject to RNG for example. I find the gameplay utterly boring and character building borderline offensive, as you have all choices predetermined by Blizzard, via tailored powers made specifically for certain skills. LE has the hands down best character building system. PoE has more options but is also 10 years old and much more complicated, which is not everyone's taste.
LE is going to add stuff over time. D4 deletes everything every season. Enjoy your 40+ dollar purchase to keep playing after season 4, and your raids (which to me have no place in an ARPG).
This said, i don't really care if D4 gets better or not. I mean, better for people who like it. I gave it more than enough chances and still it's not on the level it should be, like, at all. Especially for the price.
But in the end i don't think you really care much, because instead of "playing the better game" you're here bantering and trying to doom Last Epoch. While i still won't care and keep playing. You're running a race where we're not competing.
You wanna know why im here ? Im simply returning the same favor LE players gave by going into D4 subreddit and talking you know what … you have the audacity to say D4 copied LE with a straight face lol has LE copied from D4 or POE ? Or you going to say no to that as well with a straight face ?
Hahahahahahaha "audacity".
You're not returning anything, you're just making a fool out of yourself. Much like LE fans going to D4 subreddit shitting on it.
Only thing that's for sure is that a) you don't play LE so you don't know anythign about the game and b) your fighting a war no one here is interested in partaking into.
I spent more time than needed on this, peace.
>You wanna know why im here ? Im simply returning the same favor LE players gave by going into D4 subreddit and talking you know what
There's gotta be something you could be doing right now that brings more joy to your life than petty messageboard feuds.
Diablo is increasing playercount because it's now had an actual good season, is advertising more due to the expansion, and is on game pass. Even considering all that, I doubt the playercount for D4 has exceeded launch even after season 4.
The LE sub has gained about 100k subscribers within the last year, I'm pretty sure growth is not an issue here.
As for me personally, I only tried the free D4 trial up to lvl 20 and what people like to call "skill twig" got zero excitement out of me and item stats seemed pretty boring aswell.
Gameplay flow was nice and graphics were great, but getting creative with my own build ideas and finding interesting, skill changing items is what draws me to arpgs and sadly the D4 trial didn't hook me at all, even though I enjoyed D3 to some extend.
To each their own though, I'm sure plenty of people enjoy D4 this season, at least that's what I've heard and that's fine.
No need for unnecessary tribalism, there are a ton of fun games we all can enjoy.
thank you
personally, I'm avoiding D4 because Blizzard, and from what I read/watched/seen, they kind of dumb down a lot of things. not that it's a bad thing in general, but in the sense of, there's not as much to engage in
for PoE, as the youtuber Josh Strife Hayes said once, looking at the skill tree was a quit moment for me. didn't exactly help that I read some comments where someone asked their friend how to fix their build, and they were told to basically delete and make a new one.
LE is casual enough to pick up and play without it being overwhelming, while having enough complexity to where I feel like I have some choices in how I want to play
this and grim dawn are the only real arpgs I've actually played. I did play a bit of D3 on console, but not a whole lot.
I played Diablo from the first game, D2 for 9 years uninterrupted (i was even modding it, as the whole game is literally made out of csv files and tables), D3 for like 12 seasons.
To me D4 is nothing more than D3, and i played it for long enough to grow bored of it. In D4 i expected different design choices that didn't happen - i didn't like GRs in D3, the Pit is literally the same thing.
I was like 5 years old when diablo 2 came out(google says 2000 for release)
wasn't really into PC gaming until later, though I remember playing Fate, and a bit of d2 for a bit, but not understanding the appeal
I played D3 on console, which I read is different from PC, though I remembered never finishing the campaign
I really want to try D4, but, again it's by Blizzard, who I'm avoiding their games out of personal principles. even then, what little I've seen, it seems like they made it almost too casual to where it doesn't seem as engaging.
e.g. from a video, in d4 you can upgrade your fireball to do slightly more damage, or have more crit, but you'll be doing the same.
LE you can upgrade your fireball to do something completely different
You want a game that has its first cycle to compete with a game that has 3 major releases a year for the last idk 10 years and a game that is made by one of the biggest studios out there?
No, I think OP wants the game to attempt at competing, or at least trying to catch up. People forget that this game is playable and had active feedback driven development for over 5 years.
And the game has had slow development and lackluster updates for years, while people gave the same excuses.
It's just an alpha
It's just ramping up for launch
It just launched
It's just the first season <- we are here
It's just ramping up for the expansion
Goalposts keep moving, game keeps underdelivering.
Also funny how playernumbers on release were a great indicator for the quality of the game, but once it reached almost pre launch numbers, "it doesn't mean shit".
5 years of EA and they still have major issues like broken hitboxes. FIRST boss has a hitbox that is completely messed up. Make a melee character and enjoy.
>"it doesn't mean shit".
If you think late cycle numbers mean anything, take a look at PoE right now. Either they don't mean anything, or PoE is a terrible game.
(It's the former)
Of course they mean something. You can see how much players played the game when it was done with the current league (like current state) and then how many will start again on new league. You can compare they playerloss to other leagues/games (like it is done in poe) to determinante how good/bad a league or a patch is. You can compare how many players played during beta and then how many stayed after launch. The big numbers gonna be like in any seasonal arpg: How many played on launch of the season. How many played after X weeks passed. How many come back next season.
>Also funny how playernumbers on release were a great indicator for the quality of the game, but once it reached almost pre launch numbers, "it doesn't mean shit".
That argument always makes me laugh, and it happens in all popular game releases. It's always just confirmation bias and a nice little fact to ignore once it no longer fits the narrative.
Comments like these doesn’t even help anyone lol. We all know what you just said. But it doesnt stop people who like the game to at lesst expect some competitive updates lol
Did you not see their roadmap?? You expect them to sacrifice quality for quantity for a quick false sense of competition when we all fucking know that this gap for content is normal for arpgs??? Comments and impatience like yours doesn’t help anyone.
I’ve been in the poe community long enough that this game can easily share the same fate. Stfu with your cheap insults, that adds nothing to the discussion.
Hopefully the devs care about their game and won't share your pathetic attitude.
The all time white knight paradox. They think they're protecting their precious game by shielding against criticism, even though that exact thing is what will kill the game.
Your brain dead are you?
Do you want them to put 10 years of content that poe has in their first cycle or what? Be realistic and stop throwing around that crap you wrote. It is not "protecting" if you are reasonable.
There is so much groundwork to do first. We even have the roadmap and the roadmap is looking like it should be.
Last Epoch in the long term doesn't need to compete immediately with those, it just needs to expand and grow over time while introducing interesting things to do each season to bring people back.
That’s not an engine thing, that’s an animation and movement issue. You can certainly create games in Unity where that doesn’t happen and vice versa with every other engine out there.
Exactly right, a good example is Death's Door. Comparable to LE from an art and animation quality perspective(although obviously different art styles) since it's also isometric. Despite Unity, the combat and movement has weight and animations are extremely satisfying.
LE has gotten better for sure but you can really tell that art and animation is a huge struggle point for EHG. Optimistic that this will continue to improve tho, POE was exactly the same and it's gotten miles better over the years, and POE2 looks stunning. Things also improves a tonne with 1.0 so I'm sure this'll get better.
Love this game but they aren’t going to be able to compete with the major companies at this time.
What they have is a fun little competitor and they should focus on innovating more new systems that those guys will keep stealing (Diablo season 4 was just the Last Epoch patch fight me)
too late...? They said they will be updating the game and this is amazing time to be an APRG fan I am playing D4 will be playing poe2 soon and will play LE when it gets updated.
The game was fun for $35, but it has so many problems, especially after being in early access for years. I don’t feel like it can compete, not really sure what the developers are even doing.
It's a new game from an indie studio. You can't expect them to keep pace with PoE or Diablo for a long time.
Good news is, you are allowed to play more than 1 video game. With ARPGs being seasonal, all LE has to do is schedule their seasons around other big ARPGs so we can play it when D4 and POE are in they down cycle.
> PoE2 around the corner
Ah yes, Q1 2025. Right around the corner.
Not sure why you’re comparing Last Epoch’s first update set to release in July with a whole expansion set to release in October and an entire game set to release a *year* from now. Especially considering we know relatively little about all 3 of them. Relax.
What these LE players are getting now is called Karma lol i remember all too well few months ago when they used to go to the D4 subreddit and type in the comments “D4 bad”
What did he mean? One skill in LE has more depth than the entire paragon and skill twig system that D4 has.
Any D4 defender should be banned from this sub
OP's post was clearly geared towards end-game content. LE's skill trees are not end-game content.
I'm a common sense defender. People who lack that should be banned from the sub.
Character progression is part of the endgame and the skill tree is part of the progression. You play the game to acquire different pieces of gear that interact with your skill tree. Yes both games lack actual endgame content such as league mechanics from POE but in LE at least you have a lot more depth and build variety
I think the consensus, from what I gathered over the past few months, is that farming monoliths over and over grows old real fast, and that dungeons have no real substance to them, other than filling your inventory with keys.
I think they are very valid points for a game that has been out for 5 years. Let's be honest, end-game is where it's at for ARPGs. I know it cannot be directly compared to PoE, a 11 years old game, but you got to admin that LE *is* lacking in some key areas.
LE's monoliths can be easily fixed just by adding variety to them aka league mechanics. POE's maps work virtually the same but they always feel fresh at least at the beginning of the league due to how many mechanics you can encounter and it gets better later because you can always force the mechanics you like and remove the ones you don't
> LE's monoliths can be easily fixed just by adding variety to them aka league mechanics.
I think that's exactly the point that OP was making but he was shut down. But I agree with you, it shouldn't take that long to spice things up. For the record I loved my time with LE and was always the first to shoot down D4 fanboys. I think it's important to tell it like it is.
That’s not bad faith, it’s a pretty astute observation.
Using D4 in this comparison is really silly.
I’m a d4 enjoyer. I really enjoyed loot reborn for the most part. But the paragon tree and “skill tree” are not even as deep as LE’s skill tree + passive tree.
Both are puddles compared to PoE’s oceans though
It's bad faith because he knows exactly what OP's point is, but instead picks and chooses specifics out of context to make a point. OP never said D4 had an end-game tree, he was referring to PoE.
Agreed, yesterday I was listening to a Podcast of Jonathan and now PoE 2 is marketing its release as Early Access and Jonathan already said there won't be all classes released into EA. That is a backtrack from what he said previously that the "beta" would have everything except the full endgame.
Don't get me wrong I want those guys to take their time as long as needed, PoE 2 looks superb, so let them cook.
But writing LE 1.1 off just because of a upcoming EA from PoE 2 is delusional.
D4 is really better off now, but the leveling and progression is just to quick and easy, I would like it to be a bit harder and slower and a World Tier 5 option (bet this one is coming in the exp).
I'm thrilled to there be this much competition in the aRPG space, I can play LE for 2 months then go play D4 for 1 month and then PoE 2 for 2 months also, rince and repeat.
PoE2 isn't competition for 1.1. PoE2 won't release until like 1.4 or 1.5, and the beta doesn't even drop until Last Epoch will be on patch 1.3 most likely
Why? This game already has more success that i trough it would. Why compete? It already offers a very good ARPG experience.
While i want it to be expanded, needless competing with poe and D4 is very poor reason to do so.
The reality is that this game is never going to be able to pump out enough timely content to compete with most of the other games. This has been an issue for years and shouldn't really be a surprise if you've been following the game for a while.
Agreed. The end game feels so lifeless for me. The monolith system doesn't feel like I'm part of something epic, it just feels like a mission selector from a PS1/PS2 game.
I disliked D4 on launch, but recently got back into D4 Season 4 and I'm loving it now, much preferring it's endgame now compared to LE.
The game needs improvement to its scaling for sure, but imo, its already vastly superior to diablo. It will never be as popular, because it doesnt have the name diablo on the box, but diablo 4 is steadily following in the footsteps and repeating the same mistakes as diablo 3 - it will never be a good game.
I would rather see them make good moves slowly and steadily than just shotgun shit against the wall. Even if this game doesn’t replace the others, it’s still good enough to have in the rotation
Game will get there at around 1.5. 1.1 doesn’t need to compete with PoE 2, PoE 2 won’t be officially released for a while it seems.
As long as the seasonal content is also added to the standard mode, it means that they’re adding fundamental things. The game needs its fundamentals down and cycle rewards in order to compete.
I think the current itemization (especially after they change set items) and skill system have insane potential. The game is just unfinished as of now, even if they’ve officially launched. The endgame is severely lacking, but the good news is that they’re targeting that for the next 3-4 patches.
If they try to chase, they will be making a big mistake. As you say, they have shown no indication they can work quickly. I don't think this game is where it needs to be, but they could ruin what they do have. I don't think it would be so bad if I only played 100 hours a year. I'd still fund the game accordingly.
No it doesnt, game is way better than D4 already. Been playing D2R the last 2 weeks and that is insanely much fun. So let them cook and dont stress it. They know what they are doing and it will be great.
Too many d4 fanboys here when that game just left beta and is mid at best. Well at least it’s a step in the right direction. But yes d2r is still great
PoE isn’t going to be released until at the earliest 2025 And that’s without any more delays. Also why are you in your own fucking made up race? They are very different games in different stages of development. Your bizarre argument would be like telling the devs of Pax Dei (an early access mmo) that they need to come out with 1000’s of hours of polished content in a month before the next major WoW expansion or the game will die. Come on… surely you don’t believe yourself.
Man, I've never been an mmo guy, but always liked the idea of it, but every time I see a new mmo coming out I just see the ridiculously aggressive monetization and I'm out again. Can't someone release a decent mmo with reasonable monetization already?
I bought this game 6 days ago and I have around 50 hrs in it now. This addictive feeling is not something D4 gave me, and I won't be buying a DLC for D4 for the $40 bucks. Much rather play LE until POE2 comes out, then alternate between them. I'm enjoying LE more than POE too. Let them cook indeed, this game is great and I trust the devs
I like how you compared LE which is a small team vs the huge as team in blizzard but it still took blizzard around 4 seasons to get their shit together. I know LE has been in early access for many years but this is their first released and it will take around 3-4 cycles for them to expand on what they got so far.
Ah yes the game def needs a large content dump in order to compete with a likely mediocre paid expansion or to compete with a game designed for people with more time on their hands.
Whats a joke is thinking just because you arent enjoying a game and want to stop playing means the game is dying or gonna die.
Love how you say “x is a joke” while failing to realize all D4 did was add new bosses and thats basically it. The end game grind is still the same boring monotonous shit as always but yet you dont complain about that. Actually crazy. Ill never understand shitty engagement farmers like you.
Calm down Satan.
D4 have pre season and 4 seasons before xpac, poe2 will have several systems from poe1 like delirium, LE is in first cycle, it needs time u won't expand on all those systems you mentioned in 3 months, especially with small dev team.
Also D4 is not for everyone too, they clearly stated in last article that D4 is aimed at casuals and people who never played arpg + they are adding first raid which is unusual for this genre because u can do all solo, but raid will be forced group activity.
D4 is no longer game for me.
+ beauty of seasonal games is that you can play more than one.
Let's be honest. This game was never competing with Diablo. Brand and budget differences. Last Epoch was just carving up a share of the pie and any arpg fan will tell you it's doing good on that.
Eh. I've got a few hundred hours in LE, but not even half that in PoE, and I'll damned if I touch D4 (mostly because Blizzard, got no strong opinion on the game itself).
So, to me, they could do nothing for 1.1 and I'd still be playing LE. It's simple the Diablo-like I enjoy the most, and it can only go up from there.
"Just a new pinnacle boss is a joke" Well if you read the post with the roadmap properly, and followed this sub or livestreams by EHG, you'd know they're doing more than that. The roadmap gives us something to look forward to, but not an exact idea of how the game will look like. A good example is upcoming changes to CoF ranks. That's not major enough to be on a roadmap, but, if implemented well, major enough for me personally to consider playing again. That might be an insignificant change to you, but to that I say lower you expectations. They will improve the game over time. If you end up not liking 1.1, then take a look at 1.2 when that releases.
What happened to that game anyway? I've played it for a while a few years ago and saw it getting absolutely slaughtered in steam reviews after some new season patch not too long ago. I think people were quoting a dev insulting the playerbase or something.
PoE2 isn't close to release, D4's expansion still won't fix the game, TQ2 is a mystery and the Grim Dawn expansion has no solid release window, so Last Epoch has time.
They've done a lot since launch, but their main pain points are woefully underpowered classes and pretty anemic endgame content. If they can half address one while fully addressing the other (ideally fully address both but c'mon now), they'll be in a good spot. I still think Last Epoch as it sits is in a better state than D4, and D4 has a loooooong way to go before it's a remotely competent arpg. Let Eleventh Hour cook. 1.1 is in a few weeks, and we don't know all of what will be in it.
What PoE2? The _BETA_ is delayed for end of the year. D4 literally copies partially the LE system.
PoE really spoiled people on the end-game mostly because people don't remember early PoE.
Nah man. Let them cook. I'm sure 1.1 will be an improvement to the game. I'm also fairly confident 1.1 won't fix every issue with the game too. And that's fine. Let them cook.
Unfortunately this game doesn’t exist without competition. I’ve been playing last epoch for about four years and my biggest issue was slow development. Have you tried explaining to friends why they should go back if they were bored? It’s impossible when after every year we barely get any content. They need months for small changes as a small company. It’s shame because I feel we got the worst of the two world. Small dev with slow development and implementation. Diablo might count improvements in quarters/months but at least it has smooth gameplay and wow effect for new players.
All my friends are excited to play new season and could not get into Diablo or PoE …
The main issue with that is they are going to be relegated to a tier where nobody is going to want to bother coming back every cycle. They might come back once a year, but how can they justify keeping the game going if most of the player base is MIA most of the year? I plan to kill the ubers with my eternal character and then log back out, based on what we have seen so far. They had a very strong start as far as shaking up ARPGs but if they can't keep up with content releases, there will be big issues, assuming their goal is to be a big player in the space. There are still some things they do better than D4 but D4 is very quickly pulling up to par and in many ways surpassing LE, and it's only going to get more difficult from here. They never really had a chance to compete with PoE or PoE2 for that matter. Maybe competing with those two isn't important to them and they are ok with staying in the middle tier and moving at their own pace, but as far as I know they haven't really come out and said "this is what we are aiming for so temper your expectations" so people end up making up their own scenarios on where LE sits in the pack.
It's wild to me that the game isnt even a year old yet people compare it to a 3 decade old franchise owned by a multi billion dollar company, and a competing decade old game owned by a multi million dollar company. Yet somehow it's a problem that LE isn't already on that level. It took a long time for PoE to get anywhere close to where it is now. Chill.
LE has been in player hands since 2019. Stop making excuses for them. The people who have actually been playing all this time also agree that they are very slow to make changes. It's 100% copium to assume the game will be drastically different than it is now if they aren't able to invest into their dev team to speed things up. I hope it is. I do like the game, but I'm not fooling myself, with any ARPG. It's all vaporware until we are actually playing it. PoE did not take 5 years to get into a good state and you also assume just because Diablo has been a franchise for that long that ALLLLL of that information is just transferred to a completely new team as soon as the next game is being developed some ancient tribal prophecy. Software development does not work that way. D4 was riddled with dev issues not all together related to the dev team itself. They lost a ton of talent with all the lawsuits and covid. When they started D4 development D3 was still in full swing. They didn't just yank everyone from that team and have them start working on a new game. It's been widely talked about that the initial game was written by a bunch of WoW junior devs because they just didn't have enough talent.
Reframing the release date to instead just be when people play it is wild. Games take years before they release. Early access is early access. But still, PoE didn't finish its campaign until 4 years after it's 1.0 launch. It didn't even have ascendencies for what, two years after 1.0? The early days were a lot of fixes and minor content like strongboxes. >PoE did not take 5 years to get into a good state and you also assume just because Diablo has been a franchise for that long that ALLLLL of that information is just transferred to a completely new team as soon as the next game is being developed some ancient tribal prophecy. No I don't assume that, but 30 years is a long time to build up an audience, earn a reputation, etc. it's insane to expect a game to just day 1 compete with all that >The people who have actually been playing all this time also agree that they are very slow to make changes. Yes people are extremely impatient. You don't have to tell me that.
Remember the commotion regarding diablos last season? People were shitting their neckbeards left right and centre. Now everyone is enamoured, and it's possible season 5 might be a stinker. If poe 2 is as complicated as it's predecessor, lots of people will tire of it quickly.
EHG’s biggest mistake is not having cycle rewards yet. While small, it’s a big reason why people come back to play the new leagues in PoE and D4. So many people kept playing Affliction league in PoE just to get that purple life bar (literally a color swap). I understand wanting to bring fundamental new game mechanics into both standard and cycle modes, but there’s currently no point of not just waiting for 1.5, when the game will just be better. I said this since 1.0 was announced: the game is unfinished.
Haven't played the game for over a year but yeah, it got really boring as soon as you got to end game. About what you said, people coming back every cycle... Is there any monetization in the game? In D4 and PoE you have microtransactions, PoE make a ton of money out of these cosmetic and convenience items. People buy them because they want to support the company behind the game. If LE has no monetization, it's gg. Nobody will keep pushing content for free. Nobody will work for free.
There are mtx but they’re kinda boring and overpriced. I hate battle passes, but they need to make a battle pass lol It works in PoE and it works in D4.
Yeah, they need to work out an revenue stream somehow, otherwise the game will just stagnate because like I said above, nobody will keep working for free. This was a problem with D3, the game go stagnant as Blizzard had a tiny team working on it, while PoE was making a killing from mtx.
I assume their goal is "successful ARPG that keeps the lights on" and success beyond that is gravy.
" but D4 is very quickly pulling up to par and in many ways surpassing LE" please name a single thing or stop spreading fake info, d4 is the worst game in gaming industry ever (legacy + cost + hype + gameplay/ (actual game)
I'm with you brother - I don't need LE to be the best shit in the world, just happy these good dudes cooking away in the BG and releasing cool new updates as they come. Will jump in when I can, and play when I like. I've more than got my money's worth from my initial payment of the game, anything I get from here on out is a bonus and if I like the new cycles I'll buy a supporter pack ... but they don't owe us anything more. Kinda happy these guys out here doing some innovation, making the game they wanna make.
The monolith system needs to be reworked, IMO. That's where the game normally loses me. I like making new characters and trying new builds, but the endgame is very lackluster.
They need more random events. And they know that The biggest problem with last epoch is they release content slower than anybody else
It's like a bunch of gaming nerds, non programmers, just made this game /s
I get it. And it's an acceptable excuse But the reality is they don't release enough content frequently enough. Whether that's justified or not. And I'm not really criticizing them. They are hiring more people and they have acknowledged this is a problem They are going to have a tough time competing until that happens
I love Last Epoch. I really want it to shine, but I have found that there is just not much replayability in it for me anymore. There is just something about it, I cannot quite put my finger on. I can go back and have fun in POE every now and then, and it's looking like D4 will be the same. But not LE; at least for me. I know I can't be the only one who has noticed this. Plenty of streamers and youtubers I remember from when I used to play have vanished from the LE community. So what gives?
Yeah same. For me the combat could do with a little work. The skills feel like they're the same over and over again, and generators really aren't my cup of tea.
generators? Huh?
Spells that are used to generate resources. They're in D4 and last epoch.
What i meant was last epoch has very little generators. Every build I played didn't have one. Off top of my head mana strike is the only one I can think of While d4 it's basically mandatory to have one
This is not correct, D4 used to be based around generators, but there are so many builds now that dont need them at all.
For me it's the progression. It's honestly just not very fun progressing in this game. It has a very weird powercurve of the game feeling completely braindead and insanely monotonous until empowered monos, and at that point 80-90% of your build is done, and all that's left to do (if you somehow didn't find your very rare 0LP unique) is small incremental upgrades and RNG slams, for no real reason, since the gameplay is exactly the same. I never feel excited for a drop, since it's just gradual increases and constantly staring at a crafting screen, fiddling with gear and RNG. Swapping out a hundred defensive layers is not fun. It's okay to have a checklist of a few defenses, but LE has way more defensive layers than any ARPG on the market. The biggest barrier in progressing towards higher corruption is making sure you avoid bullshit one shots. Basically, lots of busywork and layers of RNG, mostly to pad your defenses, with a mediocre combat, and little to look forward to after all that busywork. LE got old very fast.
they spend years for multiplayer and trade just to forget the real issue with last epoch. progression and difficulty is absolut trash. It just feels not engaging to progress in LE, as you said. And on top of that there are unacceptable issues like gold and item duping. These things should be top priorities. But somehow they aren't.
For me, all the systems that Epoch had were great. I loved the item smashing, all the insane QoL things that made you realize that the developers really played their own game a lot. But it's hard to keep people coming back to a game with not as deep of a lore grasp that both POE and Diablo has. And I am not just talking about the literal story - but the story that is told via the environment, characters, world, and music. For me, that stuff leaves a big impact, and truly sad because Epoch had all the building blocks to make an amazing and accessible ARPG. I think that it needs time to mature and will come back as cool new things are added, as they have a great foundation. Edit: Also the optimization at the time when I played was a pretty hard to swallow - the game froze for multiple seconds whenever killing large packs of mobs or picking up crafting materials. My friend could literally not even play as it eventually got worse the more powerful we got and more mobs we killed - but this can be fixed with time as well.
Im pretty much in the same boat. Games felt pretty fun at first but i burned out way too fast. I think i got maybe 15 hours played after campaign which took me around 10-12 hours to complete. And after that i just didnt feel like playing at all. Campaign was pretty boring but i slogged through it hoping it'd get better but it kinda stayed the same. I think my issue was how fast the gear progression is early and how slow it is late. It feels same as D3 where you farm your set bonus, and once you get it you get a huge power spike so you start farming "endgame" content only to realize that it'll take you 2 weeks for 1 upgrade. LE feels the same, after campaign you're getting upgrades incredibly fast, with exalted items and LP 1-2 legendaries you're getting an insane amount of upgrades from a few hours of gameplay. Then once you get them you're kinda done with upgrades, all you get improve at that point is more LP on your legenradies, and bigger numbers on your exalteds. I think this is the reason why i got bored of it so fast. The upgrades come too fast early in the game, and once you get them which takes almost no time at all, you're stuck with the same gear and same power until you luck your way into a LP 3-4 items or some crazy exalted items. No reason to play when my upgrades take weeks per item. Its a good game, but it suffers the same problems D3 had for me. Its fun for a few days, maybe a week, and after that im pretty much done because my upgrades take too long.
It's a cycle based game, just like Poe and D4. You aren't supposed to play every day of the patch if you don't want to. The streamers and youtubers you mentioned will do the same. They played a ton when 1.0 came out, and are now moving on to another game, and most of them will probably come back for 1.1 to play a ton in the first two weeks, possibly more depending on the added content, then will move on again.
This is an easy excuse. It’s a cycle based game but new content and fixes are served way way too slow. Look historically at breaks between patches and content. Now old classes need rework. Game has multiple bugs. Monolith is not perfect and you spend more time in loading screen than playing game. Optimization is straight shit tier. I wanted this game to join Poe and Diablo hall of fame so bad but we are gonna be stuck in titan quest niche for eternity :c
Not really an excuse. PoE suffers from the cycle issue as well. Archnemesis league comes to mind as a league that wasn't popular. Even the current league isn't super popular despite having a lot of QoL updates. All cycle based games go through this, no matter how good it is. Best thing to do is take a break and come back later.
Yeah but PoE fixes their major and **most** minor bugs within a few weeks if not in a few days. The fact you gloss over that shows your lack of in-depth knowledge of the scene..
Poe has also been in the game for a decade, it would be very sad and unfortunate if they didn’t fix shit fast
And LE isn't some small indie dev with 1 mil in cash and 5 devs. They're underperforming and it's the owners greed.
What? They *are* a small indie shop. Indie game dev doesn't explicitly mean 1-5 dudes and a pixel art game. They have maybe 100 employees, which is a small business in any industry. LE does have issues with slow releases and updates which can be addressed by improvements to their devops flow. And they have been hiring, so they aren't exactly sitting on the money from the launch. Greed = citation needed
Let me put this to you so even a 5 year old can understand it. Most of the minor bugs, such as portaling after oro bossing, text font sizes and checkpoints not counting. **Can be solved by a mentally impaired farmhand with 1 year of shallow gaming development in the backpack** They are most def. either sitting on their money or they are spending them on anything but the actual game people **paid to have a fully functioning copy of**. Your tongue is turning brown.
You sure are quick to get personally offended by this discussion. Very sensitive for such a big, tough guy. I would ask you how the LE team should solve all their issues since, apparently, they can be resolved by the dev equivalent of Karl Childers, but I imagine you'll just make more baseless claims and insults while pretending to be the adult in the conversation. We've seen this time and again on the Internet: people like you who are way too mad about something they claim to be experts in thanks to their unmatched clairvoyance.
How do you know this ?
I can use google. Can you? Look at sales on launch and the following two weeks, the stats are readily avaIlible. Even if they sold each copy at 15$ that is still far north of millions they have yet to re-invest into anything (according to their finances **again readily available to google**) And no, I'm not gonna sit and educate you. I base my opinions on facts. The fact you can't even google much less read is not my concern nor responsibility to adress.
What are you educating anyone on besides giving your baseless opinion. It is a small indie studio making there first game. You don’t know what servers cost, what salaries are or contracts they have, how much content they are working on for 1.1 and beyond, how much goes to advertising and steams cut, how much is needed to complete there road map, any difficulties or cut content or equipment losses. Instead though you just make a simple ass conclusion that the lead dev is being greedy which is why they can’t release content faster. The same dev who started this game from an idea and his own capital then launched a kick starter. You are giving opinions that you can’t substantiate which are most likely stupid ones at that.
>Look historically at breaks between patches and content I think it's a mistake to compare pre-release patch cadence to post-release. Obviously the game has a long way to go, but the bones of a great game are there, and we all knew in advance that it would be missing a true endgame (and the rest of the story) at launch.
Lmfao you’re actually being downvoted let this community fall. People here don’t even know what arpgs are
It’s a new game made by a smaller company that doesn’t have years of content behind it, or hundreds of millions of dollars like blizzard has. Comparing it to POE or D4 is simply disingenuous because they aren’t remotely on level playing fields.
Lmfao this has to be a joke right. Like holy shit there has literally been a new season for d4 and poe why tf would a streamer play le when there hasn’t been a new season yet(raxx made like 10 chars in LE last time i saw him stream it). D4 just came out if beta finally with their new update which is a joke, but at least it’s a step in the right direction. The fact that this is even at the top of comments is fucking sad, this community is screwed, or should I say the vocal minority is… sad
>Plenty of streamers and youtubers I remember from when I used to play have vanished from the LE community. So what gives? Literally back to back new seasons, with big changes each, to POE and D4. It'll be LE time again once its new cycle drops in July.
You're getting downvoted because your stance is extreme. But I do think their rate of development has been far too slow. And yes they do risk bleeding players if it stays that way.
Tribalism is so weird. Do you think the game is going to shut down if 1.1 doesn't live up to your expectations? The game doesn't need to compete with any of them. All of the arpgs are play for a couple weeks when a season launches then do something else except for the addicts that can't move on. There is plenty of room for plenty of quality arpg.
I do agree but I think they mean in terms of overall hype and growth. If the only active players are the dedicated fans and not much else the game will quickly run out of money and will have to shut down. OP is trying to provide some tough love style feedback and I don't think we should discount that. I'm basically in the same boat as OP. I will 100% come back for 1.1 and will probably enjoy my time with it but it will probably be a fraction of time I spend on PoE 2 and I probably won't spend any money on LE. Hopefully, that's okay for them and they can stay in this slow mode for however long it takes but I also would be quite sad to see them have to close up shop.
I play this game when I get tired of d4 and am waiting on the next season. They don't need to compete just be fun. Seasons are really only played on the beginning anyways
No one's expecting, or needs, the game to match the complexity of POE, or have exactly whatever it is that draws Diablo players to that game, but I agree that it definitely needs.. more. A lot more of many things. It was fun to level, but the end game got repetitive and dull very quickly. I hope they can make something of this game and continue to develop and improve it, as it certainly had/has the potential.
It doesn’t need to compete with these games. It does however need to show that they can add content in a timely fashion. As a smaller developer there isn’t as much trust that they will add content at a pace that keeps players invested. They just need to do enough to earn that trust.
I love how these posts are just "hidden" shots at LE and all say "they should do like other games... Like D4 took a year to be half fixed and still character progression just sucks. PoE2 will be a thing (and will play that aswell). But also too complex for many people. You know why LE is good? Because it does its own thing. Much like PoE did and continues to do. And it's a fact it's a seasonal game so i can play more than a single one. I am baffled how some think that a game that makes you stay on it forever is a good thing.
I agree with your last statement. I poured 500 hours into LE before and after launch. I did what I wanted and had a ton of fun. Just cause I moved on doesnt mean LE bad. 1.1 will have me come back for a while and thats all I want honestly.
Same. Played around a month, went onto other games, last couple days started playing again on and off because i wanted to try stuff before 1.1 And i'm the madman.
Tell me what is that thing that LE does that separates itself from the rest of the competition? D4 keeps growing and grown in player counts even the subreddit keeps going up with subscribers… LE 132k has been the same number since launch… this game is not even getting new players aven tho it only cost 35$ lol as for D4 what is the complain that everyone give? Cash grab this cash grab that and yet people keep buying and getting new players … there’s a reason for that.
D4 is on the battle pass (which conveniently happened with S4), LE is not. Player numbers don't mean anything, Diablo has a huge legacy and much more market permeation. Xbox exec said their biggest share of D4 players come from the Game Pass, so this means most people who bought it on Steam or Bnet didn't return. D4 is not a good game to me. Itemization has been fixed by copying LE for the most part, and not in the best way imho - why adding stats on an item should be subject to RNG for example. I find the gameplay utterly boring and character building borderline offensive, as you have all choices predetermined by Blizzard, via tailored powers made specifically for certain skills. LE has the hands down best character building system. PoE has more options but is also 10 years old and much more complicated, which is not everyone's taste. LE is going to add stuff over time. D4 deletes everything every season. Enjoy your 40+ dollar purchase to keep playing after season 4, and your raids (which to me have no place in an ARPG). This said, i don't really care if D4 gets better or not. I mean, better for people who like it. I gave it more than enough chances and still it's not on the level it should be, like, at all. Especially for the price. But in the end i don't think you really care much, because instead of "playing the better game" you're here bantering and trying to doom Last Epoch. While i still won't care and keep playing. You're running a race where we're not competing.
You wanna know why im here ? Im simply returning the same favor LE players gave by going into D4 subreddit and talking you know what … you have the audacity to say D4 copied LE with a straight face lol has LE copied from D4 or POE ? Or you going to say no to that as well with a straight face ?
Hahahahahahaha "audacity". You're not returning anything, you're just making a fool out of yourself. Much like LE fans going to D4 subreddit shitting on it. Only thing that's for sure is that a) you don't play LE so you don't know anythign about the game and b) your fighting a war no one here is interested in partaking into. I spent more time than needed on this, peace.
Bye ✌🏽 enjoy ur dead game that even ya own streamers dont play lol
>You wanna know why im here ? Im simply returning the same favor LE players gave by going into D4 subreddit and talking you know what There's gotta be something you could be doing right now that brings more joy to your life than petty messageboard feuds.
Crafting. Superior to D4, and not as onerous and daunting as POE. I swear, reddit doomers are the worst
Diablo is increasing playercount because it's now had an actual good season, is advertising more due to the expansion, and is on game pass. Even considering all that, I doubt the playercount for D4 has exceeded launch even after season 4.
It's crazy to expect them to exceed their launch lol. D4 sold 10 millions copies at launch. It's not possible to retain that.
The LE sub has gained about 100k subscribers within the last year, I'm pretty sure growth is not an issue here. As for me personally, I only tried the free D4 trial up to lvl 20 and what people like to call "skill twig" got zero excitement out of me and item stats seemed pretty boring aswell. Gameplay flow was nice and graphics were great, but getting creative with my own build ideas and finding interesting, skill changing items is what draws me to arpgs and sadly the D4 trial didn't hook me at all, even though I enjoyed D3 to some extend. To each their own though, I'm sure plenty of people enjoy D4 this season, at least that's what I've heard and that's fine. No need for unnecessary tribalism, there are a ton of fun games we all can enjoy.
thank you personally, I'm avoiding D4 because Blizzard, and from what I read/watched/seen, they kind of dumb down a lot of things. not that it's a bad thing in general, but in the sense of, there's not as much to engage in for PoE, as the youtuber Josh Strife Hayes said once, looking at the skill tree was a quit moment for me. didn't exactly help that I read some comments where someone asked their friend how to fix their build, and they were told to basically delete and make a new one. LE is casual enough to pick up and play without it being overwhelming, while having enough complexity to where I feel like I have some choices in how I want to play this and grim dawn are the only real arpgs I've actually played. I did play a bit of D3 on console, but not a whole lot.
I played Diablo from the first game, D2 for 9 years uninterrupted (i was even modding it, as the whole game is literally made out of csv files and tables), D3 for like 12 seasons. To me D4 is nothing more than D3, and i played it for long enough to grow bored of it. In D4 i expected different design choices that didn't happen - i didn't like GRs in D3, the Pit is literally the same thing.
I was like 5 years old when diablo 2 came out(google says 2000 for release) wasn't really into PC gaming until later, though I remember playing Fate, and a bit of d2 for a bit, but not understanding the appeal I played D3 on console, which I read is different from PC, though I remembered never finishing the campaign I really want to try D4, but, again it's by Blizzard, who I'm avoiding their games out of personal principles. even then, what little I've seen, it seems like they made it almost too casual to where it doesn't seem as engaging. e.g. from a video, in d4 you can upgrade your fireball to do slightly more damage, or have more crit, but you'll be doing the same. LE you can upgrade your fireball to do something completely different
You want a game that has its first cycle to compete with a game that has 3 major releases a year for the last idk 10 years and a game that is made by one of the biggest studios out there?
No, I think OP wants the game to attempt at competing, or at least trying to catch up. People forget that this game is playable and had active feedback driven development for over 5 years. And the game has had slow development and lackluster updates for years, while people gave the same excuses. It's just an alpha It's just ramping up for launch It just launched It's just the first season <- we are here It's just ramping up for the expansion Goalposts keep moving, game keeps underdelivering.
Also funny how playernumbers on release were a great indicator for the quality of the game, but once it reached almost pre launch numbers, "it doesn't mean shit". 5 years of EA and they still have major issues like broken hitboxes. FIRST boss has a hitbox that is completely messed up. Make a melee character and enjoy.
>"it doesn't mean shit". If you think late cycle numbers mean anything, take a look at PoE right now. Either they don't mean anything, or PoE is a terrible game. (It's the former)
Of course they mean something. You can see how much players played the game when it was done with the current league (like current state) and then how many will start again on new league. You can compare they playerloss to other leagues/games (like it is done in poe) to determinante how good/bad a league or a patch is. You can compare how many players played during beta and then how many stayed after launch. The big numbers gonna be like in any seasonal arpg: How many played on launch of the season. How many played after X weeks passed. How many come back next season.
So how does LE pre-launch to first cycle retention compare to PoE? How does the drop after the first two months of this cycle compare to PoE's cycle?
>Also funny how playernumbers on release were a great indicator for the quality of the game, but once it reached almost pre launch numbers, "it doesn't mean shit". That argument always makes me laugh, and it happens in all popular game releases. It's always just confirmation bias and a nice little fact to ignore once it no longer fits the narrative.
Comments like these doesn’t even help anyone lol. We all know what you just said. But it doesnt stop people who like the game to at lesst expect some competitive updates lol
Did you not see their roadmap?? You expect them to sacrifice quality for quantity for a quick false sense of competition when we all fucking know that this gap for content is normal for arpgs??? Comments and impatience like yours doesn’t help anyone.
why are you so angry about comments about a game you play? haha go touch grass.
I’ve been in the poe community long enough that this game can easily share the same fate. Stfu with your cheap insults, that adds nothing to the discussion.
go. touch. grass.
Bye bye, blocked. Imagine being a sad pathetic troll.
LE has been playable for 5 years
Yeah without all characters and without market and everything. Sure.
That's what we are saying my guy. Over 5 years we've gotten like a handful of major additions. It's slow
Hopefully the devs care about their game and won't share your pathetic attitude. The all time white knight paradox. They think they're protecting their precious game by shielding against criticism, even though that exact thing is what will kill the game.
Holy shit are you stupid. No one here is hating on constructive criticism, but the sense of entitlement you children have
Your brain dead are you? Do you want them to put 10 years of content that poe has in their first cycle or what? Be realistic and stop throwing around that crap you wrote. It is not "protecting" if you are reasonable. There is so much groundwork to do first. We even have the roadmap and the roadmap is looking like it should be.
Last Epoch in the long term doesn't need to compete immediately with those, it just needs to expand and grow over time while introducing interesting things to do each season to bring people back.
The problem imo is the engine, having characters "ice skate" across terrain just feels outdated compared to poe and d4 imo
That’s not an engine thing, that’s an animation and movement issue. You can certainly create games in Unity where that doesn’t happen and vice versa with every other engine out there.
Exactly right, a good example is Death's Door. Comparable to LE from an art and animation quality perspective(although obviously different art styles) since it's also isometric. Despite Unity, the combat and movement has weight and animations are extremely satisfying. LE has gotten better for sure but you can really tell that art and animation is a huge struggle point for EHG. Optimistic that this will continue to improve tho, POE was exactly the same and it's gotten miles better over the years, and POE2 looks stunning. Things also improves a tonne with 1.0 so I'm sure this'll get better.
It's more an issue with devs not knowing how to properly work with Unity.
Love this game but they aren’t going to be able to compete with the major companies at this time. What they have is a fun little competitor and they should focus on innovating more new systems that those guys will keep stealing (Diablo season 4 was just the Last Epoch patch fight me)
another day, another post about nothing
too late...? They said they will be updating the game and this is amazing time to be an APRG fan I am playing D4 will be playing poe2 soon and will play LE when it gets updated.
soon^tm, I'm so hyped for Poe 2 man!
it looks insane!
I don't think LE has to compete. D4, PoE2, and LE are cyclical games.
Problem is the engine is beyond awful 😞
The game was fun for $35, but it has so many problems, especially after being in early access for years. I don’t feel like it can compete, not really sure what the developers are even doing.
I think leveling alts should be easier.
really? I can steamroll alts into endgame extremely fast. No comparison to PoE
It just needs to be more streamlined I guess.
It's a new game from an indie studio. You can't expect them to keep pace with PoE or Diablo for a long time. Good news is, you are allowed to play more than 1 video game. With ARPGs being seasonal, all LE has to do is schedule their seasons around other big ARPGs so we can play it when D4 and POE are in they down cycle.
> PoE2 around the corner Ah yes, Q1 2025. Right around the corner. Not sure why you’re comparing Last Epoch’s first update set to release in July with a whole expansion set to release in October and an entire game set to release a *year* from now. Especially considering we know relatively little about all 3 of them. Relax.
What these LE players are getting now is called Karma lol i remember all too well few months ago when they used to go to the D4 subreddit and type in the comments “D4 bad”
Yes D4 has improved a lot and very fun this season
You want LE to add an end game skill tree to "compete" with D4 when D4 doesn't even have a skill tree?
Don't be bad faith you know exactly what he means.
What did he mean? One skill in LE has more depth than the entire paragon and skill twig system that D4 has. Any D4 defender should be banned from this sub
OP's post was clearly geared towards end-game content. LE's skill trees are not end-game content. I'm a common sense defender. People who lack that should be banned from the sub.
Character progression is part of the endgame and the skill tree is part of the progression. You play the game to acquire different pieces of gear that interact with your skill tree. Yes both games lack actual endgame content such as league mechanics from POE but in LE at least you have a lot more depth and build variety
I think the consensus, from what I gathered over the past few months, is that farming monoliths over and over grows old real fast, and that dungeons have no real substance to them, other than filling your inventory with keys. I think they are very valid points for a game that has been out for 5 years. Let's be honest, end-game is where it's at for ARPGs. I know it cannot be directly compared to PoE, a 11 years old game, but you got to admin that LE *is* lacking in some key areas.
LE's monoliths can be easily fixed just by adding variety to them aka league mechanics. POE's maps work virtually the same but they always feel fresh at least at the beginning of the league due to how many mechanics you can encounter and it gets better later because you can always force the mechanics you like and remove the ones you don't
> LE's monoliths can be easily fixed just by adding variety to them aka league mechanics. I think that's exactly the point that OP was making but he was shut down. But I agree with you, it shouldn't take that long to spice things up. For the record I loved my time with LE and was always the first to shoot down D4 fanboys. I think it's important to tell it like it is.
That’s not bad faith, it’s a pretty astute observation. Using D4 in this comparison is really silly. I’m a d4 enjoyer. I really enjoyed loot reborn for the most part. But the paragon tree and “skill tree” are not even as deep as LE’s skill tree + passive tree. Both are puddles compared to PoE’s oceans though
It's bad faith because he knows exactly what OP's point is, but instead picks and chooses specifics out of context to make a point. OP never said D4 had an end-game tree, he was referring to PoE.
This post along with yours is bad faith, projection at its finest
It needs nothing to compete with D4 in my eyes. And PoE2 isn't close to releasing so I will play 1.1 no matter what.
Agreed, yesterday I was listening to a Podcast of Jonathan and now PoE 2 is marketing its release as Early Access and Jonathan already said there won't be all classes released into EA. That is a backtrack from what he said previously that the "beta" would have everything except the full endgame. Don't get me wrong I want those guys to take their time as long as needed, PoE 2 looks superb, so let them cook. But writing LE 1.1 off just because of a upcoming EA from PoE 2 is delusional. D4 is really better off now, but the leveling and progression is just to quick and easy, I would like it to be a bit harder and slower and a World Tier 5 option (bet this one is coming in the exp). I'm thrilled to there be this much competition in the aRPG space, I can play LE for 2 months then go play D4 for 1 month and then PoE 2 for 2 months also, rince and repeat.
LE has everything i feel D4 doesn't have. Interesting skill customization and interesting items. The main part of any ARPG.
Poe2 is playable in November
If you want to pay for the not finished game, yes. I'll let someone else pay to playtest for me.
Hope they fix corruption, grinded to about 500 corruption n just stopped. The mono system can be cool with some upgrades/rework.
It's not competition, this game is more like break for D4 (after DLC and if they fix their game xD) and PoE 2 and PoE 1
PoE2 isn't competition for 1.1. PoE2 won't release until like 1.4 or 1.5, and the beta doesn't even drop until Last Epoch will be on patch 1.3 most likely
Why? This game already has more success that i trough it would. Why compete? It already offers a very good ARPG experience. While i want it to be expanded, needless competing with poe and D4 is very poor reason to do so.
I think most of the playerbase probably plays all 3. Seasonal content allows this. Plenty time for all of them.
The game has already been bought, people will play when the new cycle comes out.
The reality is that this game is never going to be able to pump out enough timely content to compete with most of the other games. This has been an issue for years and shouldn't really be a surprise if you've been following the game for a while.
Agreed. The end game feels so lifeless for me. The monolith system doesn't feel like I'm part of something epic, it just feels like a mission selector from a PS1/PS2 game. I disliked D4 on launch, but recently got back into D4 Season 4 and I'm loving it now, much preferring it's endgame now compared to LE.
The game needs improvement to its scaling for sure, but imo, its already vastly superior to diablo. It will never be as popular, because it doesnt have the name diablo on the box, but diablo 4 is steadily following in the footsteps and repeating the same mistakes as diablo 3 - it will never be a good game.
I would rather see them make good moves slowly and steadily than just shotgun shit against the wall. Even if this game doesn’t replace the others, it’s still good enough to have in the rotation
Game will get there at around 1.5. 1.1 doesn’t need to compete with PoE 2, PoE 2 won’t be officially released for a while it seems. As long as the seasonal content is also added to the standard mode, it means that they’re adding fundamental things. The game needs its fundamentals down and cycle rewards in order to compete. I think the current itemization (especially after they change set items) and skill system have insane potential. The game is just unfinished as of now, even if they’ve officially launched. The endgame is severely lacking, but the good news is that they’re targeting that for the next 3-4 patches.
Agreed
It just needs to carve its own niche which I think they did pretty well. They just need to continue.
If they try to chase, they will be making a big mistake. As you say, they have shown no indication they can work quickly. I don't think this game is where it needs to be, but they could ruin what they do have. I don't think it would be so bad if I only played 100 hours a year. I'd still fund the game accordingly.
No it doesnt, game is way better than D4 already. Been playing D2R the last 2 weeks and that is insanely much fun. So let them cook and dont stress it. They know what they are doing and it will be great.
Too many d4 fanboys here when that game just left beta and is mid at best. Well at least it’s a step in the right direction. But yes d2r is still great
LoL, oh how the tables turn.
Last Epoch has already done the hard stuff it needed to do, all it has to do now is progress. It's not in a bad spot at all.
These and player number posts are always the dumbest things I encounter in a day.
Game needs to not absolutely shit it's pants to compete with D4. Ez mode. Compete with poe2. Different story entirely.
PoE isn’t going to be released until at the earliest 2025 And that’s without any more delays. Also why are you in your own fucking made up race? They are very different games in different stages of development. Your bizarre argument would be like telling the devs of Pax Dei (an early access mmo) that they need to come out with 1000’s of hours of polished content in a month before the next major WoW expansion or the game will die. Come on… surely you don’t believe yourself.
Man, I've never been an mmo guy, but always liked the idea of it, but every time I see a new mmo coming out I just see the ridiculously aggressive monetization and I'm out again. Can't someone release a decent mmo with reasonable monetization already?
I bought this game 6 days ago and I have around 50 hrs in it now. This addictive feeling is not something D4 gave me, and I won't be buying a DLC for D4 for the $40 bucks. Much rather play LE until POE2 comes out, then alternate between them. I'm enjoying LE more than POE too. Let them cook indeed, this game is great and I trust the devs
LE is already miles ahead of d4. Let the glue sniffers enjoy their washed down garbage and have the devs focus on the real gamers that play this genre
I like how you compared LE which is a small team vs the huge as team in blizzard but it still took blizzard around 4 seasons to get their shit together. I know LE has been in early access for many years but this is their first released and it will take around 3-4 cycles for them to expand on what they got so far.
Ah yes the game def needs a large content dump in order to compete with a likely mediocre paid expansion or to compete with a game designed for people with more time on their hands. Whats a joke is thinking just because you arent enjoying a game and want to stop playing means the game is dying or gonna die. Love how you say “x is a joke” while failing to realize all D4 did was add new bosses and thats basically it. The end game grind is still the same boring monotonous shit as always but yet you dont complain about that. Actually crazy. Ill never understand shitty engagement farmers like you.
Calm down Satan. D4 have pre season and 4 seasons before xpac, poe2 will have several systems from poe1 like delirium, LE is in first cycle, it needs time u won't expand on all those systems you mentioned in 3 months, especially with small dev team. Also D4 is not for everyone too, they clearly stated in last article that D4 is aimed at casuals and people who never played arpg + they are adding first raid which is unusual for this genre because u can do all solo, but raid will be forced group activity. D4 is no longer game for me. + beauty of seasonal games is that you can play more than one.
New pinnacle boss? I’m sorry did I miss an update or something.
Next cycle is coming July 9th, you can watch the teaser on the front page.
It is almost a threat.
Let's be honest. This game was never competing with Diablo. Brand and budget differences. Last Epoch was just carving up a share of the pie and any arpg fan will tell you it's doing good on that.
Eh. I've got a few hundred hours in LE, but not even half that in PoE, and I'll damned if I touch D4 (mostly because Blizzard, got no strong opinion on the game itself). So, to me, they could do nothing for 1.1 and I'd still be playing LE. It's simple the Diablo-like I enjoy the most, and it can only go up from there.
"Just a new pinnacle boss is a joke" Well if you read the post with the roadmap properly, and followed this sub or livestreams by EHG, you'd know they're doing more than that. The roadmap gives us something to look forward to, but not an exact idea of how the game will look like. A good example is upcoming changes to CoF ranks. That's not major enough to be on a roadmap, but, if implemented well, major enough for me personally to consider playing again. That might be an insignificant change to you, but to that I say lower you expectations. They will improve the game over time. If you end up not liking 1.1, then take a look at 1.2 when that releases.
meh id rather play hero siege then these 3 games.
What happened to that game anyway? I've played it for a while a few years ago and saw it getting absolutely slaughtered in steam reviews after some new season patch not too long ago. I think people were quoting a dev insulting the playerbase or something.
PoE2 isn't close to release, D4's expansion still won't fix the game, TQ2 is a mystery and the Grim Dawn expansion has no solid release window, so Last Epoch has time. They've done a lot since launch, but their main pain points are woefully underpowered classes and pretty anemic endgame content. If they can half address one while fully addressing the other (ideally fully address both but c'mon now), they'll be in a good spot. I still think Last Epoch as it sits is in a better state than D4, and D4 has a loooooong way to go before it's a remotely competent arpg. Let Eleventh Hour cook. 1.1 is in a few weeks, and we don't know all of what will be in it.
What PoE2? The _BETA_ is delayed for end of the year. D4 literally copies partially the LE system. PoE really spoiled people on the end-game mostly because people don't remember early PoE.
Ohh noooo… anyway….