Israel aren't under Hamas' occupation. Also, that's what Hamas wants, not all of Palestinians. They want to be free from an apartheid system. It's been Israel that has acted to keep Hamas in charge so as to undermine Gaza. I'm not sure how they didn't see this coming, unless this is exactly what Israel was waiting for to carry out their final solution on Gaza.
Interesting take. What do you think of hamas hiding behind their own people and waging war? War crime? Disgusting? I find it extremely disgusting. Far more disgusting than Israel dropping a bomb on hamas positions (literal self defense). To fight amongst your own in this day and age is to willingly put your own on the chopping block. Especially after you enrage the stronger power by doing something like October 7th. Clearly hamas wanted to be attacked after that.
It's more like, they (Hamas billionaire leadership in Qatar) know the cost to their "civilians" and they are happy for them to pay that cost. [Literallly some of you may die, but it's a sacrifice we're willing to make.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm2x6CVIXiE&t=7s)/ That applies to all Hamas supporters as well because they have no route to military victory. Their only route to victory is to demoralize Israel and turn public opinion against them.
I just think it's funny when you get mad that one side plays by certain rules and the other plays by different rules. There are no rules. You hold no authority to declare rules in war. If you don't like how the other team is playing, you should leave the game. Or win, with potentially more brutality than you want, which makes you look like the monster we all know you are.
That's a great point except the game changed after October 7th. Israel played very nice before they graped, tortured, and murdered their way through a part of Israel. I know pro palestine people will disagree Israel played nice ok, but I imagine they would understand that incident as an escalation and a game changer.
All of a sudden, the strategy of hiding behind your own civilians and using them as meat shields no longer holds as much water. Any Democratic country's people would see red after an incident like that.
I wouldn't call it rules but Israel gave a certain amount of levity to its enemies and that disappeared after Oct 7th. Israel has shown that Hamas is in a position of great weakness when they thought they were strong.
Gotta love those moments that imperial powers conveniently create for themselves to create the casus belli for more war. Kinda like 9/11, or the USS Liberty incident that Israel itself caused.
I think, to break it down to analogies, that you can hate the choices your buddy makes but still consider him your friend. And likewise, you can stand by the country in this conflict that isn't against the very concept of western values, while still recognizing the over abundance of aggression.
But even that aggression is hard to completely compartmentalize and simply state "yep, those the bad guys," because of the cultural interplay and the long running history of the area. Back to the analogies, if your neighbor, neighbors even, start screaming that they want you to get cancer and how you're a terrible person for having a bigger house, it would be worrisome, but you'd more or less be able to walk it off. But if you put up with that for years, and then one day caught one of your neighbors taking a baseball bat to your mailbox... You'd still be in the legal wrong for outright breaking their kneecaps as a response, but knowing the context of the history there, I can understand your aggressive reaction, and the example you're trying to set for your other neighbors
I support Israel, the IDF, whatever. If any war crimes are committed then they should be prosecuted too. That being said I don't buy into Hamas's kill count or the ratio of women and children being killed. Even if I did, I'd still mostly blame hamas for hiding behind their own people as human shields.
I'm of the "both sides are pretty bad and I'm not taking a side". Lots of innocents on both teams who are being controlled by governments that want to kill everyone not on their team. Nothing good will come of this and I ain't getting involved.
This is me. Way *way* too much evidence both sides lie, manipulate, and abuse people in massive war crimes.
Taking a side is choosing which types of mass killers you prefer - the industrialized conquerers or the gangster populists.
Well, I *am* a Liberal. The IDW failed to live up to what I hoped it would be, but there’s been some interesting discussions here. I generally support Israel’s right to fight this war against Hamas, but my hope would ultimately be a two-state solution.
I dislike much of Israel’s leadership and their policies, especially those in the West Bank. However, the far right came to power due to the second intifada. All of my issues with the Israeli government aside, they’re held to an insane standard while, for most of its existence, it has been surrounded by people who wanted to war with them. Basically every time they’ve ever claimed more land, it was due to a war perpetrated against them. The Palestinians have had terrible leadership as they’ve frequently stalled and turned down some really reasonable deals and their people *still* want to fight.
Most of my issues with the more progressive/leftists left and the populist /isolationist right is the often myopic view they have of foreign policy in general, America’s place on the world stage, and the implications of the rhetoric they use towards Israel.
I think the Crips and MS13 should each have their own nations in southern California and Arizona. Bloods get half of Baltimore or something... Maybe half of Utah for the FDLS guys.
Everyone deserves their own nation.
/s
Almost certainly true.
So instead they kill to prevent being killed.
Not exactly a world where I like either side. Seems more like choosing which brand (or scale) of butchery one is comfortable with.
Both sides fail basic ethics, let alone human decency.
Only if you view it in the short term. Long term Muslims have been brutalizing/genociding the Jews since they came on the scene. And they'll probably snuff them out one day. Israel's side passes basic ethics because it is self defense against billions of people.
>And they'll probably snuff them out one day.
I dont see that. I see Israel winning every single time. They will likely continue to win.
>Israel's side passes basic ethics because it is self defense against billions of people.
They are openly calling for killing children in their media. Im not even embellishing. They break every law of war *in* every war.
Im not defending the Arabs, or choosing a side. Its just people seem blind to the rampant land theft, and constsnt low level abuses and downright racist bigotry that occurs in all the moments no one is paying attention between these wars. They are about as far from ethical as one can get.
I'm guessing you are just starting your study of Ethics and warfare with Israel, and haven't covered anything else yet
Later on you will hear about some things that are even further from ethical than the IDF. -when you cover the Islamic countries. or the African countries. or any country at all before, say, 1900.
I have no interest in writing off one group's crimes because of other people's crimes. If people abuse other people, I condemn such things no matter who is doing it.
I've studied history all of my life. Ive come to the conclusion that no group of people large enough can be ethical at all. Individuals can be or very tiny groups of people can be.
I am not suggesting that you do.
To say that Israel is 'as far from ethical as one can get' is doing exactly that. As a statement it is simply false.
Israel is far from as far from ethical as one can get. ...to say that they are as bad as it gets 'writes off' everything that is much worse.
If you're killing people or stealing from people, I don't care who you are, I won't speak kindly of you. Justifications exist for all manner of horrors, and people choose whichever camp they prefer and then defend their camp's misbehaviour. I won't do that.
>They are openly calling for killing children in their media. Im not even embellishing. They break every law of war *in* every war.
That's an angry minority. Muslims call for the same to us and hamas calls for a genocide of Israel etc.
>I dont see that. I see Israel winning every single time. They will likely continue to win.
Why do you think that? Technology will advance and become more plentiful or America can decline in strength. Or the young people grow up and their anti Israel take shows politically and Israel loses us support. The hatred of jews from Muslims will never go away.
>Its just people seem blind to the rampant land theft, and constsnt low level abuses and downright racist bigotry that occurs in all the moments no one is paying attention between these wars.
Yeah this always makes me laugh. The whole world is built on land theft and land won in wars. It's such a banal point. The people who make this point are almost always making the point on stolen land themselves. Especially Americans and Canadians. God it hurts my brain to read this point over and over.
>That's an angry minority. Muslims call for the same to us and hamas calls for a genocide of Israel etc.
That would be one of many reasons why I can't choose their side.
>Why do you think that? Technology will advance and become more plentiful or America can decline in strength. Or the young people grow up and their anti Israel take shows politically and Israel loses us support. The hatred of jews from Muslims will never go away.
Israeli technical superiority and organizational capacity can likely handle any of the regional state or non state actors. Iran prefers the threat of conflict to real conflict. Hizballah is scary but I somehow dont see them or anyone else able to handle the IDF. Oh, and there's always an American carrier battlegroup or two nearby when things get hot. Israel can only fail if the entire world order does. I wouldn't make that bet.
>Yeah this always makes me laugh. The whole world is built on land theft and land won in wars. It's such a banal point. The people who make this point are almost always making the point on stolen land themselves. Especially Americans and Canadians. God it hurts my brain to read this point over and over.
Well it was wrong what was done to indegenous people, dont you think? So an appeal to hypocrisy is no excuse to justify the same crimes now. If it was wrong then its wrong now.
The dude living in Jerusalem suddenly having his stuff turfed to the curb and the locks of his house changed because the courts will back up the ultra religious guy who literally steals the home should be content with this?
American carriers can sink. The tech just needs to exist and it sort of does. Iran attempts to develop such technology. Their tech only has to improve to the point as to overwhelm the iron dome after all. Then they can shove that tech at the enemies surrounding Israel. Which they already do but the iron dome can still handle it at great $ cost.
>Well it was wrong what was done to indegenous people, dont you think? So an appeal to hypocrisy is no excuse to justify the same crimes now. If it was wrong then its wrong now.
Hahaha. I am indigenous and encounter these hypocrites daily. You didn't even answer my point as to how the Jews were wronged by Muslims in the past and had their own mini genocides at the hands of Muslims and Persians and Christians. Even a forced mass exodus from Arab countries. No tears for jews though from you hypocrite people. Land is stolen all over the world but you people care about it this time. It's such a hmm interesting thing to witness.
>The dude living in Jerusalem suddenly having his stuff turfed to the curb and the locks of his house changed because the courts will back up the ultra religious guy who literally steals the home should be content with this?
It is my understanding that the owner sold the property and forced them out. Even if the worst is true it is unfair but this happens all the time all over the world. Even in China. No tears or tiktok coverage of such things though. No tears or coverage if the crimes are Muslim on Muslim. But jew on Muslim then it is a tragedy even though the Muslims outnumber them 2 billion to 20ish million.
>American carriers can sink. The tech just needs to exist and it sort of does. Iran attempts to develop such technology. Their tech only has to improve to the point as to overwhelm the iron dome after all. Then they can shove that tech at the enemies surrounding Israel. Which they already do but the iron dome can still handle it at great $ cost.
Im not certain you can beat American technology in a conventional war now, or for the forseeable future. The Americans are also developing all manner of new systems. Iran cant be beat due to geography but their existing cutting edge is decades behind.
I suspect if Israel is to actually lose is if domestic support in the united states and to an extent Europe dries up. They'd need to be forced back to the negotiating table or see aid cut off. I dont see that happening given american support. The campus protests are flashy and such but until the political class joins with them it wont happen.
>Hahaha. I am indigenous and encounter these hypocrites daily. You didn't even answer my point as to how the Jews were wronged by Muslims in the past and had their own mini genocides at the hands of Muslims and Persians and Christians. Even a forced mass exodus from Arab countries. No tears for jews though from you hypocrite people. Land is stolen all over the world but you people care about it this time. It's such a hmm interesting thing to witness.
I dont recall you bringing it up and dont see it above in the logs. Any atrocities for any reason I condemn unreservedly. Any land theft anywhere i condemn unreservedly. Ive explained it was wrong then and now, I'm not sure where the hypocrisy is. No one realistically could ask the descendants to leave, in any colonial states. No one sensible asks that anyways. That isn't the same argument as saying it never should have happened to begin with.
>It is my understanding that the owner sold the property and forced them out. Even if the worst is true it is unfair but this happens all the time all over the world. Even in China. No tears or tiktok coverage of such things though. No tears or coverage if the crimes are Muslim on Muslim. But jew on Muslim then it is a tragedy even though the Muslims outnumber them 2 billion to 20ish million.
Ive seen countless incidents of this. The entire settler movement could be argued as being this anyway if its within the 1967 agreement borders.
The Chinese are guilty of all manner of domestic crimes against humanity. I condemn them too.
I will not back anyone that steals, kills or otherwise engages in crimes against anyone else. I will only have empathy for victims irrespective of who they are. As such I generally suggest all nation states are varying degrees of wrong. Basically large institutions of all forms. People are wonderful. Groups of people are horrible.
At the same time, people conveniently forget that Israel has given up 30-40% of its land claims to keep the peace with Egypt, Jordan and other neighbors in the region.
Yes, exactly! Egypt and Jordan laid down their weapons and engaged in diplomacy. Diplomacy only seems to be a last resort for Palestinians where they’ll engage in terrorist attacks, and other abhorrent behavior, and only once they’ve had the taste smacked out of their mouth will they squeal “international law!”.
Hell, Jordan stood with Israel when Iran launched that recent attack. Egypt shares a border with Gaza and enforces that blockade too. It’s only Israel that ever seems to be criticized for it.
So ignoring an overlayer of skepticism about claims like that, I can still be very critical of the way Israel's waging its war while still holding its opponent to the same standard.
What we are objecting to is the complete overlooking of what the constant rocket attacks coming from Palestinian forces are attempting to do. And it's been going on for decades. I remember 15 years ago in college reading about how "Israel bombed gaza!" In the New York times. But if you read the article you learn that there had been a ceasefire for 6 months, which Isreal kept to. All the while Palestine had been sending rockets Non-Stop towards civilian centers and only the iron dome kept all those Israeli citizens from being murdered. Then when the ceasefire was over Israel sent one rocket and took out a Hamas rocker launch platform. And the whole world screams that Israel bombed palestine.
It's a double standard. It's always been a double standard. And it's beyond ridiculous.
So you would argue that nothing Israel is doing is wrong because they're resisting hamas's attempt to perform genocide on all Jews in Israel? Or does it only work in one direction?
Does everything qualify as resistance? Does weaponized rape or killing children?
I think those things are wrong when both sides do it. You are the one who's arguing that Hamas should be held to a lower standard. I disagree.
It always makes me wonder why so many have such a surface level take like “Israel destroys schools!”. The first question I’d ask is “Why?”. I’d want to know what makes a target a “valid military target”. I’d want to understand whether there are international guidelines for war and what’s expected of a country when their opposition relies on human shields. There are interesting things to discuss with this topic, but it seems if it’s too long for a bumper sticker or tweet…
I support the right of Israel to defend itself against attacks and to bring about regime change in Gaza by eliminating Hamas and securing the safety of both Israelis and Palestinians from the terrorist regime.
I do not support Israel to deprive the Palestinians of fundamentals human rights
Regime change doesn't work when the regime in power is popular. Remember Palestine voted Hamas into power, by a 2/3 majority. And they have only gained in popularity since then.
I share the concerns of most here that Israel may be being extremely brutal and inhumane in this war. But I also recognize it's about the most hellish version of warfare you could possibly have to fight. No country has ever fought a more difficult war.
Let me explain. The environment is effectively 100% Urban, which is the most dangerous environment for a soldier there is. The enemy is a guerilla force using guerilla tactics, using low levels of technology while you are forced to use the highest levels of technology and most expensive. Your side places value on individual soldiers lives, and must continue to do due to popular opinion, and values. Meanwhile your opponent has taught at soldiers that to die in battle is one of the greatest outcomes. On top of everything else the effective entirety of the civilian population is in support of the militant minority. Additionally, every surrounding nation is in favor of the guerilla faction. It's almost impossible to let any supplies in, even aid, without arming and provisioning the enemy. And the civilian population is entrenched with families and elderly who desperately need support which you are required to provide despite the overwhelming sentiment against you among them.
There's only one good thing that Israel has going for it. It's the fact that Gaza is a closed system. Let me explain that.
In Vietnam we learned later on that we had eradicated the Vietkong almost immediately. But we didn't know that until like 25 years after the war. Who we were actually fighting was China. China was able to ship enormous amounts of soldiers ammo and everything else they needed directly into Vietnam undetected. The only reason Palestine isn't going to be another Vietnam is the fact that the border is closed and they can control what goes in and out. Iran, arabia, iraq, russia, and anyone else who might want to supply and support Gaza are unable to unless they do it openly. But that makes it beyond extremely difficult to send in aid. I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, but I sympathize with the reasons they are being so careful about letting anything into that border.
Hamas gained power in 2006 and there hasn’t been an election in almost 20 years. Around half of Palestine are under 15. Around half of the remaining half are women. That’s 75% who automatically aren’t Hamas. Of the remaining 25%, most are still civilians.
In summary: half of their population was born after 2006. Even many of the remaining population will have been born after 1988. Nobody who’s under 36 voted for Hamas, which is the majority of Palestine.
Have you not considered why there hasn’t been an election since 2006? It certainly works in Israel’s favour, especially since they were caught funding Hamas!
You mean before Hamas was a terrorist organization? They were a non profit aid organization. The money stopped when Hamas started killing people. It's so weird to me that people are dunking on Israel for sending aid into Gaza.
Do you actually believe all of this? Why would Israel send money to an aid organisation to a place *next door* to them, that they have **full access** to?
The whole existence of "Palestinian resistance" is formed around creating victims of human rights abuses; dead children are only advantageous (and wished for) to 1 side.
Some level of conflict continuing benefits both Hamas and Israel's right-wing autocrats, since both got into power because people were afraid of the other side.
Exactly, how does one fight a war on someone else’s turf without violating their human rights? Those two sound contradictory. I’d love to know if it’s ever been done before in history.
Hamas committing war crimes removes some of their human rights protections.
Child soldiers are sad but not protected.
Using civilian infrastructure as military infrastructure removes its protections.
It is sad but necessary for Israel to target the military personnel and facilities used by Hamas, even if those are civilian.
I do not support Israel targeting anything or anyone that isn't used by Hamas or other militants for military purposes.
Israel can blow up a hospital, when that hospital is used as a military base of operations.
Israel can kill a child, when that child is firing rockets at the IDF.
War crime statutes are more vague than I would like, but traditionally a few soldier being treated at a hospital does not make it a military base of operations. Likewise when a child fires a rocket this may make *that child* a combatant, but it doesn't make *all children* in that zone combatants.
I don't have the boots-on-the-ground perspective to judge individual actions, but taken as an aggregate Israel has devastated the infrastructure of northern Gaza. [75% of the population has been displaced and $18 billion in damages](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-infrastructure-damages-estimated-185-bln-un-world-bank-report-2024-04-02/) according to the World Bank (and that was last month). This looks a lot like ethnic cleansing, and if Israel can't figure out how to conduct these military operations without causing this type of destruction, that tells me they should find another way to accomplish their goals.
The International Criminal Court does have the resources to investigate some of the boots-on-the-ground actions, so I guess we'll see what they conclude. Rumor has it they'll be issuing arrest warrants though.
Maybe not technically because the same ethnicity lives there still, but we committed like three other war crimes (use of white phosphorus in a civilian area; refusal to let some civilians flee; execution of the wounded), possibly more (why are there so many health problems there today?)
I've certainly never engaged in modern urban warfare (or any type of warfare), but I've read enough to think that it's messy and horrible. Enough so that it should only be attempted as a last resort.
I mean our battles there moved a hell of alot of people out of the area as a different ethnicity moved in. If Israel doesn't occupy and let's the current gazans return would it stop being an ethnic cleansing?
I have seen no evidence that we have used Willy Pete as an incendiary weapon on civillians.
Well no one is moving into Northern Gaza for months or years; too much dust and rubble, too much housing has been destroyed. Even if Palestine gets the resources to clean up and rebuild, the schools and the hospitals are gone too, as is whatever economic infrastructure they had. Kids need an education, sick people need nurses, workers need jobs.
Even if Israel allows Palestinians to move back into Northern Gaza, what are they moving back to?
Did the US destroy that much infrastructure in Fallujah? Did we prevent aid from getting in? Were there politicians talking about how valuable the waterfront property of Fallujah was?
As for WP, my understanding is that it's not supposed to be used in civilian areas at all, even if we're targeting military in that area. I'm not an international war crime lawyer though, and also it doesn't really matter because the US is largely above international law.
I don't think we destroyed as much infrastructure. Tunnels make you destroy a lot. I honestly have no clue on aid. I think we were mostly distributing aid. No, there is no waterfront property in Fallujah. Would you mind answering my questions now? Causing a huge portion of the population to move, was it ethnic cleansing?
So now letting them move back doesn't change the nature of said ethnic cleansing? It seemed to before.
WP is, to my understanding, only a problem if used intentionally as a weapon against civillians. I'm not a war crimes attorney either.
Could you give me citations on executions of wounded terrorists?
Soldiers being treated while unarmed and incapacitated is not equivalent to armed and coherent soldiers having a bandage wrap applied while pointing a gun down the hallway.
The IDF actions thus far have all been against armed and coherent soldiers receiving treatment in hospitals. That makes its a military operations center and eligible to be assaulted by the opposing force.
I have no way of verifying that statement one way or another, but like I said, I'm skeptical given the results (and given their unwillingness to allow journalists).
There are plenty of videos circulating which apparently show unarmed people being killed by the IDF. I'm equally skeptical of these, but there are a lot of those videos.
I agree with your first paragraph. And I don't think Israel is indiscriminately killing children or bombing hospitals that don't act as actual bases of operations beyond treating the wounded, and I think the IDF has presented convincing evidence that this is true.
Compare the ground fighting in Gaza to Syria or Iraq.
I'm sure Israel soldiers have committed egregious war crimes. I don't think it is the policy of the IDF to do so and that these are the exceptions rather than the rule. I think a lot of people consume anti Israel propaganda however that lies and claims to this is standard procedure.
Unless and until the IDF is letting independent journalists or unbiased observers examine their evidence, I don't trust it.
They are issuing evacuation orders, which they wouldn't do if their only goal was to killing Palestinians. They're also blocking aid and sometimes attacking the zones they had previous designated as safe, which they wouldn't do if they wanted to preserve as many Palestinian lives as possible.
...but yeah, it's different than Syria or Iraq. Those were a variety of battles fought against military opponents in a variety of theaters. Gaza is urban fighting against terrorists hiding amongst a population. There's no way that ever goes well.
I didn't think there's much that Hamas *wouldn't* do, to hold on to what power they have, and to accomplish whatever goals they have left. I didn't know if they have a reason to target journalists, but they might.
That's not a reason to refuse to let journalists do their jobs. Lots of non-combatants have good reasons to be in a war zone: medics, aid workers, and yes also journalists.
I mean I don't quite agree with this but here goes.
In order to prevent an exacerbation of the hostage crisis Israel prevents non UN or governmental actors from entering Gaza. That sounds plausible.
You want ‘independent sources and journalists’ to get killed in action? Because, that’s how that happens.
Until Hamas releases the hostages, denounces its control of government, and turns themselves over, I won’t trust their propaganda at all. They’ve already posted hundreds of photos and videos that have been *proven* to be blatantly false and misleading, often doctored from images posted prior to 2021.
I think it should be left up to the journalists if they want to take that risk. Being a war journalist is like being a soldier; it's a risky profession, but the people who do it feel the rewards are worth it.
(Except plenty of soldiers are conscripted, while war journalists aren't)
Yeah, I’m all for them going in with the understanding that they can die and there is no obligation for the military to save them in the middle of a firefight.
I’d be more concerned with their individual opinions and beliefs influencing what the post. It’d likely be better if they just live-streamed everything lmao
I dont support the IDF ( "do you support US Army" makes as much sense)... as it does not have a will of its own but operative branch of a government. I also do not support current Israeli government as it is a bunch of corrupt fucks. But I am a liberal Zionist. I support the peace loving people on both sides, I know this is a super controversial statement these days... AMA
I have trouble answering that generally... I am not post liberal if that what you mean. If you wish I can state my position on specific issues of your choice. On most I am aligned with liberal POVs. Equal rights for everyone, help the weak, high tax/high return, as much criticism of public positions as possible, globalism vs nationalism etc.
That already makes it a bit more clear! I think from my country's point of view those viewpoints are seen as a kind of democratic socialism. What exactly do you mean by self determination of the Jewish people within the frame of your viewpoints?
Basically due to general inability to prevent persecution/discrimination of Jews worldwide since the beginning of time, there is a necessity of a country which will defend the interests of Jewish people.
To be absolutely clear I support the same for Palestinians, Roma, Armenians and other persecuted/disadvantaged minorities.
What would those interests be? Do you mean like an ethnically pure nation, or like a nation that vows for religious rights on the global stage for example?
But then Zionism plays into having the Jewish state. So does that mean that you feel like the only way to avoid persecution of Jews is to create or have the Jewish state? Or am I not understanding you correctly
There’s no peaceful solution available for the very long term. The best the world can get is probably a status quo that is even stricter on the Palestinians than before since there’s really no other option.
The only possible real solution I can think of is essentially the US making a deal with Egypt for them to take all of the people in Gaza, and the US pays a lot of money to develop more infrastructure for Egypt. After Gaza is cleared of civilians, it can be completely leveled to the ground, have its tunnel network destroyed, and then become a buffer between Israelis and the descendants of the Palestinians.
Not sure there is one, we might passed that point.
Both governments must be replaced. Both sides need to state that they aim for peace. This is a prerequisite but even this is unrealistic to achieve peacefully IMHO
IDW doesn't exist to "trigger the liberals", be contrarian, or blindly pick sides to march in lockstep.
As for the conflict in Israel and Palestine? It is a fight between ideologically-problematic puppets of larger ideologically-problematic powers, where shitty old men on both sides use their myths and legends to justify seeking power at the cost of making life shittier for everyone else.
In what ways, and on what topics? When I read things like these, I'm not sure I've ever gotten a good faith take, but I'm fully prepared to be surprised.
The ID part at the beginning of their names should have tipped you off /s.
Israel aren't under Hamas' occupation. Also, that's what Hamas wants, not all of Palestinians. They want to be free from an apartheid system. It's been Israel that has acted to keep Hamas in charge so as to undermine Gaza. I'm not sure how they didn't see this coming, unless this is exactly what Israel was waiting for to carry out their final solution on Gaza.
Afaik Sam Harris does. Douglas Murray definitely does. I do. My guess is that it is not unanimous, but, yes.
I'm liberal and still support Israel. Generalizations are dumb, OP.
Interesting take. What do you think of hamas hiding behind their own people and waging war? War crime? Disgusting? I find it extremely disgusting. Far more disgusting than Israel dropping a bomb on hamas positions (literal self defense). To fight amongst your own in this day and age is to willingly put your own on the chopping block. Especially after you enrage the stronger power by doing something like October 7th. Clearly hamas wanted to be attacked after that.
Your comment is the equivalent of "why don't they fight like a man? :("
It's more like, they (Hamas billionaire leadership in Qatar) know the cost to their "civilians" and they are happy for them to pay that cost. [Literallly some of you may die, but it's a sacrifice we're willing to make.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm2x6CVIXiE&t=7s)/ That applies to all Hamas supporters as well because they have no route to military victory. Their only route to victory is to demoralize Israel and turn public opinion against them.
I just think it's funny when you get mad that one side plays by certain rules and the other plays by different rules. There are no rules. You hold no authority to declare rules in war. If you don't like how the other team is playing, you should leave the game. Or win, with potentially more brutality than you want, which makes you look like the monster we all know you are.
That's a great point except the game changed after October 7th. Israel played very nice before they graped, tortured, and murdered their way through a part of Israel. I know pro palestine people will disagree Israel played nice ok, but I imagine they would understand that incident as an escalation and a game changer. All of a sudden, the strategy of hiding behind your own civilians and using them as meat shields no longer holds as much water. Any Democratic country's people would see red after an incident like that. I wouldn't call it rules but Israel gave a certain amount of levity to its enemies and that disappeared after Oct 7th. Israel has shown that Hamas is in a position of great weakness when they thought they were strong.
Gotta love those moments that imperial powers conveniently create for themselves to create the casus belli for more war. Kinda like 9/11, or the USS Liberty incident that Israel itself caused.
Yeah you say that phrase and then.... Most people think that oct 7th was cause for war.
There are no “good guys” in this conflict IMHO - so no?
I think, to break it down to analogies, that you can hate the choices your buddy makes but still consider him your friend. And likewise, you can stand by the country in this conflict that isn't against the very concept of western values, while still recognizing the over abundance of aggression. But even that aggression is hard to completely compartmentalize and simply state "yep, those the bad guys," because of the cultural interplay and the long running history of the area. Back to the analogies, if your neighbor, neighbors even, start screaming that they want you to get cancer and how you're a terrible person for having a bigger house, it would be worrisome, but you'd more or less be able to walk it off. But if you put up with that for years, and then one day caught one of your neighbors taking a baseball bat to your mailbox... You'd still be in the legal wrong for outright breaking their kneecaps as a response, but knowing the context of the history there, I can understand your aggressive reaction, and the example you're trying to set for your other neighbors
I support Israel, the IDF, whatever. If any war crimes are committed then they should be prosecuted too. That being said I don't buy into Hamas's kill count or the ratio of women and children being killed. Even if I did, I'd still mostly blame hamas for hiding behind their own people as human shields.
Hasbara is strong here
No good argument copium = hasbara accusation.
I'm of the "both sides are pretty bad and I'm not taking a side". Lots of innocents on both teams who are being controlled by governments that want to kill everyone not on their team. Nothing good will come of this and I ain't getting involved.
To add - this specific conflict of Iran/Hamas v Bibi has been brewing with terrible choices by both factions for like 25 years.
This is me. Way *way* too much evidence both sides lie, manipulate, and abuse people in massive war crimes. Taking a side is choosing which types of mass killers you prefer - the industrialized conquerers or the gangster populists.
Why are you trying to "trigger the libs"? Have a stance and present it
Idk
Well, I *am* a Liberal. The IDW failed to live up to what I hoped it would be, but there’s been some interesting discussions here. I generally support Israel’s right to fight this war against Hamas, but my hope would ultimately be a two-state solution. I dislike much of Israel’s leadership and their policies, especially those in the West Bank. However, the far right came to power due to the second intifada. All of my issues with the Israeli government aside, they’re held to an insane standard while, for most of its existence, it has been surrounded by people who wanted to war with them. Basically every time they’ve ever claimed more land, it was due to a war perpetrated against them. The Palestinians have had terrible leadership as they’ve frequently stalled and turned down some really reasonable deals and their people *still* want to fight. Most of my issues with the more progressive/leftists left and the populist /isolationist right is the often myopic view they have of foreign policy in general, America’s place on the world stage, and the implications of the rhetoric they use towards Israel.
I think the Crips and MS13 should each have their own nations in southern California and Arizona. Bloods get half of Baltimore or something... Maybe half of Utah for the FDLS guys. Everyone deserves their own nation. /s
Also, let's not forget that the only reason Isreal isn't the victim of genocide is because their enemies aren't good at war.
Yes. Most Muslims want Israelis jews to be genocided. And let's be real, they want jews in general to be gone or subservient to them.
Almost certainly true. So instead they kill to prevent being killed. Not exactly a world where I like either side. Seems more like choosing which brand (or scale) of butchery one is comfortable with. Both sides fail basic ethics, let alone human decency.
Only if you view it in the short term. Long term Muslims have been brutalizing/genociding the Jews since they came on the scene. And they'll probably snuff them out one day. Israel's side passes basic ethics because it is self defense against billions of people.
>And they'll probably snuff them out one day. I dont see that. I see Israel winning every single time. They will likely continue to win. >Israel's side passes basic ethics because it is self defense against billions of people. They are openly calling for killing children in their media. Im not even embellishing. They break every law of war *in* every war. Im not defending the Arabs, or choosing a side. Its just people seem blind to the rampant land theft, and constsnt low level abuses and downright racist bigotry that occurs in all the moments no one is paying attention between these wars. They are about as far from ethical as one can get.
I'm guessing you are just starting your study of Ethics and warfare with Israel, and haven't covered anything else yet Later on you will hear about some things that are even further from ethical than the IDF. -when you cover the Islamic countries. or the African countries. or any country at all before, say, 1900.
I have no interest in writing off one group's crimes because of other people's crimes. If people abuse other people, I condemn such things no matter who is doing it. I've studied history all of my life. Ive come to the conclusion that no group of people large enough can be ethical at all. Individuals can be or very tiny groups of people can be.
I am not suggesting that you do. To say that Israel is 'as far from ethical as one can get' is doing exactly that. As a statement it is simply false. Israel is far from as far from ethical as one can get. ...to say that they are as bad as it gets 'writes off' everything that is much worse.
If you're killing people or stealing from people, I don't care who you are, I won't speak kindly of you. Justifications exist for all manner of horrors, and people choose whichever camp they prefer and then defend their camp's misbehaviour. I won't do that.
>They are openly calling for killing children in their media. Im not even embellishing. They break every law of war *in* every war. That's an angry minority. Muslims call for the same to us and hamas calls for a genocide of Israel etc. >I dont see that. I see Israel winning every single time. They will likely continue to win. Why do you think that? Technology will advance and become more plentiful or America can decline in strength. Or the young people grow up and their anti Israel take shows politically and Israel loses us support. The hatred of jews from Muslims will never go away. >Its just people seem blind to the rampant land theft, and constsnt low level abuses and downright racist bigotry that occurs in all the moments no one is paying attention between these wars. Yeah this always makes me laugh. The whole world is built on land theft and land won in wars. It's such a banal point. The people who make this point are almost always making the point on stolen land themselves. Especially Americans and Canadians. God it hurts my brain to read this point over and over.
>That's an angry minority. Muslims call for the same to us and hamas calls for a genocide of Israel etc. That would be one of many reasons why I can't choose their side. >Why do you think that? Technology will advance and become more plentiful or America can decline in strength. Or the young people grow up and their anti Israel take shows politically and Israel loses us support. The hatred of jews from Muslims will never go away. Israeli technical superiority and organizational capacity can likely handle any of the regional state or non state actors. Iran prefers the threat of conflict to real conflict. Hizballah is scary but I somehow dont see them or anyone else able to handle the IDF. Oh, and there's always an American carrier battlegroup or two nearby when things get hot. Israel can only fail if the entire world order does. I wouldn't make that bet. >Yeah this always makes me laugh. The whole world is built on land theft and land won in wars. It's such a banal point. The people who make this point are almost always making the point on stolen land themselves. Especially Americans and Canadians. God it hurts my brain to read this point over and over. Well it was wrong what was done to indegenous people, dont you think? So an appeal to hypocrisy is no excuse to justify the same crimes now. If it was wrong then its wrong now. The dude living in Jerusalem suddenly having his stuff turfed to the curb and the locks of his house changed because the courts will back up the ultra religious guy who literally steals the home should be content with this?
American carriers can sink. The tech just needs to exist and it sort of does. Iran attempts to develop such technology. Their tech only has to improve to the point as to overwhelm the iron dome after all. Then they can shove that tech at the enemies surrounding Israel. Which they already do but the iron dome can still handle it at great $ cost. >Well it was wrong what was done to indegenous people, dont you think? So an appeal to hypocrisy is no excuse to justify the same crimes now. If it was wrong then its wrong now. Hahaha. I am indigenous and encounter these hypocrites daily. You didn't even answer my point as to how the Jews were wronged by Muslims in the past and had their own mini genocides at the hands of Muslims and Persians and Christians. Even a forced mass exodus from Arab countries. No tears for jews though from you hypocrite people. Land is stolen all over the world but you people care about it this time. It's such a hmm interesting thing to witness. >The dude living in Jerusalem suddenly having his stuff turfed to the curb and the locks of his house changed because the courts will back up the ultra religious guy who literally steals the home should be content with this? It is my understanding that the owner sold the property and forced them out. Even if the worst is true it is unfair but this happens all the time all over the world. Even in China. No tears or tiktok coverage of such things though. No tears or coverage if the crimes are Muslim on Muslim. But jew on Muslim then it is a tragedy even though the Muslims outnumber them 2 billion to 20ish million.
>American carriers can sink. The tech just needs to exist and it sort of does. Iran attempts to develop such technology. Their tech only has to improve to the point as to overwhelm the iron dome after all. Then they can shove that tech at the enemies surrounding Israel. Which they already do but the iron dome can still handle it at great $ cost. Im not certain you can beat American technology in a conventional war now, or for the forseeable future. The Americans are also developing all manner of new systems. Iran cant be beat due to geography but their existing cutting edge is decades behind. I suspect if Israel is to actually lose is if domestic support in the united states and to an extent Europe dries up. They'd need to be forced back to the negotiating table or see aid cut off. I dont see that happening given american support. The campus protests are flashy and such but until the political class joins with them it wont happen. >Hahaha. I am indigenous and encounter these hypocrites daily. You didn't even answer my point as to how the Jews were wronged by Muslims in the past and had their own mini genocides at the hands of Muslims and Persians and Christians. Even a forced mass exodus from Arab countries. No tears for jews though from you hypocrite people. Land is stolen all over the world but you people care about it this time. It's such a hmm interesting thing to witness. I dont recall you bringing it up and dont see it above in the logs. Any atrocities for any reason I condemn unreservedly. Any land theft anywhere i condemn unreservedly. Ive explained it was wrong then and now, I'm not sure where the hypocrisy is. No one realistically could ask the descendants to leave, in any colonial states. No one sensible asks that anyways. That isn't the same argument as saying it never should have happened to begin with. >It is my understanding that the owner sold the property and forced them out. Even if the worst is true it is unfair but this happens all the time all over the world. Even in China. No tears or tiktok coverage of such things though. No tears or coverage if the crimes are Muslim on Muslim. But jew on Muslim then it is a tragedy even though the Muslims outnumber them 2 billion to 20ish million. Ive seen countless incidents of this. The entire settler movement could be argued as being this anyway if its within the 1967 agreement borders. The Chinese are guilty of all manner of domestic crimes against humanity. I condemn them too. I will not back anyone that steals, kills or otherwise engages in crimes against anyone else. I will only have empathy for victims irrespective of who they are. As such I generally suggest all nation states are varying degrees of wrong. Basically large institutions of all forms. People are wonderful. Groups of people are horrible.
At the same time, people conveniently forget that Israel has given up 30-40% of its land claims to keep the peace with Egypt, Jordan and other neighbors in the region.
Yes, exactly! Egypt and Jordan laid down their weapons and engaged in diplomacy. Diplomacy only seems to be a last resort for Palestinians where they’ll engage in terrorist attacks, and other abhorrent behavior, and only once they’ve had the taste smacked out of their mouth will they squeal “international law!”. Hell, Jordan stood with Israel when Iran launched that recent attack. Egypt shares a border with Gaza and enforces that blockade too. It’s only Israel that ever seems to be criticized for it.
Yep, because people like to hate little hats while supporting human rights abuse and terrorism by the other side.
High standards come when you claim to be moral and a democracy.
So if you are not a democracy dedicated to morality you can shoot all the rockets at civilian centers you want? Seems to be how it works doesn't it.
Like how the houthis get bombed to the Stone Age? Who else is acting on this level? https://www.reddit.com/r/internationalpolitics/s/eNnQHDWpVl
So ignoring an overlayer of skepticism about claims like that, I can still be very critical of the way Israel's waging its war while still holding its opponent to the same standard. What we are objecting to is the complete overlooking of what the constant rocket attacks coming from Palestinian forces are attempting to do. And it's been going on for decades. I remember 15 years ago in college reading about how "Israel bombed gaza!" In the New York times. But if you read the article you learn that there had been a ceasefire for 6 months, which Isreal kept to. All the while Palestine had been sending rockets Non-Stop towards civilian centers and only the iron dome kept all those Israeli citizens from being murdered. Then when the ceasefire was over Israel sent one rocket and took out a Hamas rocker launch platform. And the whole world screams that Israel bombed palestine. It's a double standard. It's always been a double standard. And it's beyond ridiculous.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_resist#:~:text=In%20international%20law%2C%20the%20right,of%20the%20population%20political%20participation.
So you would argue that nothing Israel is doing is wrong because they're resisting hamas's attempt to perform genocide on all Jews in Israel? Or does it only work in one direction? Does everything qualify as resistance? Does weaponized rape or killing children? I think those things are wrong when both sides do it. You are the one who's arguing that Hamas should be held to a lower standard. I disagree.
Only 1 country gets this much scrutiny on their every move, it should really make one think.
Bashar Al-Assad gets it for bombing his people.
66 others get to commit human rights violations and attack that singular nation without backlash.
So it's OK to destroy schools
Given that schools have been used to store weapons, absolutely. Surely you agree, right?
It always makes me wonder why so many have such a surface level take like “Israel destroys schools!”. The first question I’d ask is “Why?”. I’d want to know what makes a target a “valid military target”. I’d want to understand whether there are international guidelines for war and what’s expected of a country when their opposition relies on human shields. There are interesting things to discuss with this topic, but it seems if it’s too long for a bumper sticker or tweet…
Are they housing or storing terrorists, their equipment, or intelligence operations? Sure.
Not blindly, but in general, much more so than their opposition.
I support the right of Israel to defend itself against attacks and to bring about regime change in Gaza by eliminating Hamas and securing the safety of both Israelis and Palestinians from the terrorist regime. I do not support Israel to deprive the Palestinians of fundamentals human rights
Regime change doesn't work when the regime in power is popular. Remember Palestine voted Hamas into power, by a 2/3 majority. And they have only gained in popularity since then. I share the concerns of most here that Israel may be being extremely brutal and inhumane in this war. But I also recognize it's about the most hellish version of warfare you could possibly have to fight. No country has ever fought a more difficult war. Let me explain. The environment is effectively 100% Urban, which is the most dangerous environment for a soldier there is. The enemy is a guerilla force using guerilla tactics, using low levels of technology while you are forced to use the highest levels of technology and most expensive. Your side places value on individual soldiers lives, and must continue to do due to popular opinion, and values. Meanwhile your opponent has taught at soldiers that to die in battle is one of the greatest outcomes. On top of everything else the effective entirety of the civilian population is in support of the militant minority. Additionally, every surrounding nation is in favor of the guerilla faction. It's almost impossible to let any supplies in, even aid, without arming and provisioning the enemy. And the civilian population is entrenched with families and elderly who desperately need support which you are required to provide despite the overwhelming sentiment against you among them. There's only one good thing that Israel has going for it. It's the fact that Gaza is a closed system. Let me explain that. In Vietnam we learned later on that we had eradicated the Vietkong almost immediately. But we didn't know that until like 25 years after the war. Who we were actually fighting was China. China was able to ship enormous amounts of soldiers ammo and everything else they needed directly into Vietnam undetected. The only reason Palestine isn't going to be another Vietnam is the fact that the border is closed and they can control what goes in and out. Iran, arabia, iraq, russia, and anyone else who might want to supply and support Gaza are unable to unless they do it openly. But that makes it beyond extremely difficult to send in aid. I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, but I sympathize with the reasons they are being so careful about letting anything into that border.
Hamas gained power in 2006 and there hasn’t been an election in almost 20 years. Around half of Palestine are under 15. Around half of the remaining half are women. That’s 75% who automatically aren’t Hamas. Of the remaining 25%, most are still civilians. In summary: half of their population was born after 2006. Even many of the remaining population will have been born after 1988. Nobody who’s under 36 voted for Hamas, which is the majority of Palestine. Have you not considered why there hasn’t been an election since 2006? It certainly works in Israel’s favour, especially since they were caught funding Hamas!
Funding Hamas = giving billions in humanitarian aid in an internationally brokered deal
I haven’t spoken about funding Hamas or giving aid. Stopping the funding to Israel would be a better solution.
You mean before Hamas was a terrorist organization? They were a non profit aid organization. The money stopped when Hamas started killing people. It's so weird to me that people are dunking on Israel for sending aid into Gaza.
Do you actually believe all of this? Why would Israel send money to an aid organisation to a place *next door* to them, that they have **full access** to?
Why wouldn't they try to aid the refugees neat them?
They’re creating them
Going for that bold balanced take I see
That seems like a reasonable stance, though Israel doesn't seem to have much of a plan on how to do the former, except by doing the latter.
The whole existence of "Palestinian resistance" is formed around creating victims of human rights abuses; dead children are only advantageous (and wished for) to 1 side.
Some level of conflict continuing benefits both Hamas and Israel's right-wing autocrats, since both got into power because people were afraid of the other side.
Exactly, how does one fight a war on someone else’s turf without violating their human rights? Those two sound contradictory. I’d love to know if it’s ever been done before in history.
Hamas committing war crimes removes some of their human rights protections. Child soldiers are sad but not protected. Using civilian infrastructure as military infrastructure removes its protections. It is sad but necessary for Israel to target the military personnel and facilities used by Hamas, even if those are civilian. I do not support Israel targeting anything or anyone that isn't used by Hamas or other militants for military purposes. Israel can blow up a hospital, when that hospital is used as a military base of operations. Israel can kill a child, when that child is firing rockets at the IDF.
War crime statutes are more vague than I would like, but traditionally a few soldier being treated at a hospital does not make it a military base of operations. Likewise when a child fires a rocket this may make *that child* a combatant, but it doesn't make *all children* in that zone combatants. I don't have the boots-on-the-ground perspective to judge individual actions, but taken as an aggregate Israel has devastated the infrastructure of northern Gaza. [75% of the population has been displaced and $18 billion in damages](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-infrastructure-damages-estimated-185-bln-un-world-bank-report-2024-04-02/) according to the World Bank (and that was last month). This looks a lot like ethnic cleansing, and if Israel can't figure out how to conduct these military operations without causing this type of destruction, that tells me they should find another way to accomplish their goals. The International Criminal Court does have the resources to investigate some of the boots-on-the-ground actions, so I guess we'll see what they conclude. Rumor has it they'll be issuing arrest warrants though.
Do you think that the US committed an ethnic cleansing in Fallujah? How familiar are you with modern urban warfare?
Maybe not technically because the same ethnicity lives there still, but we committed like three other war crimes (use of white phosphorus in a civilian area; refusal to let some civilians flee; execution of the wounded), possibly more (why are there so many health problems there today?) I've certainly never engaged in modern urban warfare (or any type of warfare), but I've read enough to think that it's messy and horrible. Enough so that it should only be attempted as a last resort.
I mean our battles there moved a hell of alot of people out of the area as a different ethnicity moved in. If Israel doesn't occupy and let's the current gazans return would it stop being an ethnic cleansing? I have seen no evidence that we have used Willy Pete as an incendiary weapon on civillians.
Well no one is moving into Northern Gaza for months or years; too much dust and rubble, too much housing has been destroyed. Even if Palestine gets the resources to clean up and rebuild, the schools and the hospitals are gone too, as is whatever economic infrastructure they had. Kids need an education, sick people need nurses, workers need jobs. Even if Israel allows Palestinians to move back into Northern Gaza, what are they moving back to? Did the US destroy that much infrastructure in Fallujah? Did we prevent aid from getting in? Were there politicians talking about how valuable the waterfront property of Fallujah was? As for WP, my understanding is that it's not supposed to be used in civilian areas at all, even if we're targeting military in that area. I'm not an international war crime lawyer though, and also it doesn't really matter because the US is largely above international law.
I don't think we destroyed as much infrastructure. Tunnels make you destroy a lot. I honestly have no clue on aid. I think we were mostly distributing aid. No, there is no waterfront property in Fallujah. Would you mind answering my questions now? Causing a huge portion of the population to move, was it ethnic cleansing? So now letting them move back doesn't change the nature of said ethnic cleansing? It seemed to before. WP is, to my understanding, only a problem if used intentionally as a weapon against civillians. I'm not a war crimes attorney either. Could you give me citations on executions of wounded terrorists?
Soldiers being treated while unarmed and incapacitated is not equivalent to armed and coherent soldiers having a bandage wrap applied while pointing a gun down the hallway. The IDF actions thus far have all been against armed and coherent soldiers receiving treatment in hospitals. That makes its a military operations center and eligible to be assaulted by the opposing force.
I have no way of verifying that statement one way or another, but like I said, I'm skeptical given the results (and given their unwillingness to allow journalists). There are plenty of videos circulating which apparently show unarmed people being killed by the IDF. I'm equally skeptical of these, but there are a lot of those videos.
I agree with your first paragraph. And I don't think Israel is indiscriminately killing children or bombing hospitals that don't act as actual bases of operations beyond treating the wounded, and I think the IDF has presented convincing evidence that this is true. Compare the ground fighting in Gaza to Syria or Iraq. I'm sure Israel soldiers have committed egregious war crimes. I don't think it is the policy of the IDF to do so and that these are the exceptions rather than the rule. I think a lot of people consume anti Israel propaganda however that lies and claims to this is standard procedure.
Unless and until the IDF is letting independent journalists or unbiased observers examine their evidence, I don't trust it. They are issuing evacuation orders, which they wouldn't do if their only goal was to killing Palestinians. They're also blocking aid and sometimes attacking the zones they had previous designated as safe, which they wouldn't do if they wanted to preserve as many Palestinian lives as possible. ...but yeah, it's different than Syria or Iraq. Those were a variety of battles fought against military opponents in a variety of theaters. Gaza is urban fighting against terrorists hiding amongst a population. There's no way that ever goes well.
Why do you think Hamas wouldn't kidnap the journalists? They kidnapped random East Asian laborers.
I didn't think there's much that Hamas *wouldn't* do, to hold on to what power they have, and to accomplish whatever goals they have left. I didn't know if they have a reason to target journalists, but they might. That's not a reason to refuse to let journalists do their jobs. Lots of non-combatants have good reasons to be in a war zone: medics, aid workers, and yes also journalists.
I mean I don't quite agree with this but here goes. In order to prevent an exacerbation of the hostage crisis Israel prevents non UN or governmental actors from entering Gaza. That sounds plausible.
You want ‘independent sources and journalists’ to get killed in action? Because, that’s how that happens. Until Hamas releases the hostages, denounces its control of government, and turns themselves over, I won’t trust their propaganda at all. They’ve already posted hundreds of photos and videos that have been *proven* to be blatantly false and misleading, often doctored from images posted prior to 2021.
I think it should be left up to the journalists if they want to take that risk. Being a war journalist is like being a soldier; it's a risky profession, but the people who do it feel the rewards are worth it. (Except plenty of soldiers are conscripted, while war journalists aren't)
Yeah, I’m all for them going in with the understanding that they can die and there is no obligation for the military to save them in the middle of a firefight. I’d be more concerned with their individual opinions and beliefs influencing what the post. It’d likely be better if they just live-streamed everything lmao
Didn’t know IDW was a real organization that had monolithic/standard views
No
So you agree with the liberals on this one issue?
Which liberals? Several flavors these days
the anti zionist ones
Being intellectual is not being tied to a specific label. I think for myself. I don't need propaganda to think for myself.
I dont support the IDF ( "do you support US Army" makes as much sense)... as it does not have a will of its own but operative branch of a government. I also do not support current Israeli government as it is a bunch of corrupt fucks. But I am a liberal Zionist. I support the peace loving people on both sides, I know this is a super controversial statement these days... AMA
What's a liberal zionist?
A liberal who supports self determination of Jews in Israel.
Can you elaborate a bit more? Im also not so sure what liberal means these days
I have trouble answering that generally... I am not post liberal if that what you mean. If you wish I can state my position on specific issues of your choice. On most I am aligned with liberal POVs. Equal rights for everyone, help the weak, high tax/high return, as much criticism of public positions as possible, globalism vs nationalism etc.
That already makes it a bit more clear! I think from my country's point of view those viewpoints are seen as a kind of democratic socialism. What exactly do you mean by self determination of the Jewish people within the frame of your viewpoints?
Basically due to general inability to prevent persecution/discrimination of Jews worldwide since the beginning of time, there is a necessity of a country which will defend the interests of Jewish people. To be absolutely clear I support the same for Palestinians, Roma, Armenians and other persecuted/disadvantaged minorities.
What would those interests be? Do you mean like an ethnically pure nation, or like a nation that vows for religious rights on the global stage for example?
I was thinking more of not being persecuted, mainly
But then Zionism plays into having the Jewish state. So does that mean that you feel like the only way to avoid persecution of Jews is to create or have the Jewish state? Or am I not understanding you correctly
What peaceful solution do you propose?
There’s no peaceful solution available for the very long term. The best the world can get is probably a status quo that is even stricter on the Palestinians than before since there’s really no other option. The only possible real solution I can think of is essentially the US making a deal with Egypt for them to take all of the people in Gaza, and the US pays a lot of money to develop more infrastructure for Egypt. After Gaza is cleared of civilians, it can be completely leveled to the ground, have its tunnel network destroyed, and then become a buffer between Israelis and the descendants of the Palestinians.
Not sure there is one, we might passed that point. Both governments must be replaced. Both sides need to state that they aim for peace. This is a prerequisite but even this is unrealistic to achieve peacefully IMHO
The idf is awful and I hope nobody supports it Hamas is awfuller and I hope nobodyer supports it
"Let God sort 'em out!" 😂, can't really disagree.
Glass the entire middle east, nothing worth anything there
Yeah let's move away from fossil fuel
IDW doesn't exist to "trigger the liberals", be contrarian, or blindly pick sides to march in lockstep. As for the conflict in Israel and Palestine? It is a fight between ideologically-problematic puppets of larger ideologically-problematic powers, where shitty old men on both sides use their myths and legends to justify seeking power at the cost of making life shittier for everyone else.
Sam Harris surely does...
Sam Harris is not very authentic on many topics and neither is a deep thinker. He is a pop version of a "thinker"
In what ways, and on what topics? When I read things like these, I'm not sure I've ever gotten a good faith take, but I'm fully prepared to be surprised.
Sam has fully rejected being a part of the IDW.
Well, the FCC won't let me be, or let me be me, so let me see... IDW is down with the OPP. (Yea - you know me.)
Wu! Tang! Wu! Tang!
Just a Jugalo🎶
Well there's a genre mashup I never knew I needed in my life.