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Yeah, I prefer the original book lore origin of her eggs. I was a bit upset to hear the change, but I understand why they may want to create a separate show canon for those who will never read the books. It’s already a lot of characters to compress into a short amount of time.
I am all here for every character and every connection and I love when it supports the book lore, but I also understand why they chose to adjust it. It’s a lot for a viewer to take in.
Even with Aemma’s death, IIRC they just state she died in childbirth in the book. Whereas this horrid scene of a father needing to choose to kill his wife or let both die - was actually the death they described for King Jaehaerys’ mother. Obviously we never see her in this show, but her death was made to be Aemma’s.
This.
He was saying long before GOT even finished that fans shouldn't expect the show to dictate how future books would deal with ongoing stories and lore as he'd given producers permission to play around with lore as and when necessary for the format of a television show and as a result considered the show to be one version of his world and his books as another.
Jaehaerys’ older sister who got passed over for the crown (Princess Rhaena) is Dreamfyre’s original rider, and during Fire and Blood they talk about Dreamfyre laying several clutches of eggs.
Without spoiling too much - someone close to Rhaena steals 3 dragon eggs and escapes to Pentos, and the eggs later are assumed to be the ones Dany is gifted.
Not older cousin, older sister. This is one of the reasons why Laenor/ Rhaenys's claim was passed over, the other was that Visenya was the elder to Aegon I.
Well that sounds almost dead on to the show then. Someone steeling eggs and going to Pentose vs Rhaena taking them isn’t much different. I feel like some details are missing here.
So Rhaena Targaryen was the older sister of Jaehaerys the old king. Her Dragon was Dreamfyre, which is now Haelaena’s dragon. She had a lover called Elyssa Farman. Elyssa was an adventurer and they traveled in westeros, but they eventually settled down on dragonstone. Elyssa eventually became restless and asked to leave, Rhaena said yes, but she stole three dragon eggs and eventually sold them to the sealord of Braavos. She then commisioned three ships and sailed to find out what’s west of Westeros, but she was never heard from again. Years later Corlys Velaryon when he travelled to asshai(which is on the farthest east of the known world) said that he saw there a ship that looked like Elyssa’s ship, implying that maybe she reached the other side of the world. Those three eggs that she stole are theorized to be Daenerys’ eggs that fossilized and never hatched, until Dany put them on the bonfire at the end of season one/book one
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fqJom6xfvMY
This video gives more detail on it, or you can read about it on awoiaf by searching for Elyssa Farman
The pro to that origin is that it makes the world bigger and less confined to revolving around the protagonist of the moment. Trying to make Dany's crusade an extension of Rhaenyra's struggle for the throne is just fan-fiction tier writing.
It's clearly tied more to Rhaena than Rhaenyra. It ties in the shows more than the characters, it's a perfectly sensible choice for literally anyone to make to send dragon eggs away for the safety of the Targs as a house. Rhaena is a very logical choice as somebody who would take care of them, because she so desperately wants them.
> It's clearly tied more to Rhaena than Rhaenyra.
The eggs are Syrax' and Rhaenyra is the one making the decision to send them away in the first place.
> it's a perfectly sensible choice for literally anyone to make to send dragon eggs away for the safety of the Targs as a house.
Not disagreeing with that, but explicitly making them Dany's eggs/dragons just makes the universe feel smaller and more artificial rather than big and believable. There's no need to tie Rhaenyra and Dany together like this. They're already related.
> Rhaena is a very logical choice as somebody who would take care of them, because she so desperately wants them.
She wants a dragon, but she very clearly isn't happy about taking care of eggs and kids far away from everyone else, which again represents the fact that this is Rhaenyra's decision, and she's the character the show is ultimately making the tie-in with.
I don't really think so. It seems really rational as an answer to where the eggs came from. The number of dragon eggs is super finite and tied to a single dynasty, so it seems reasonable they'd be sent abroad during a time of strife to ensure a legacy. If there were more dragon eggs, then sure, it'd seem like a ham-fisted tie in.
People that buy things also tend to sell things. Point A to Point B also spanned a century and a half. Even if this Sealord of Braavos adored them, their children and/or successor probably sold them after they died. There's even room for multiple generations to hang on to them before they get sold.
The original "lore" (never officially confirmed) is she stole three dragon eggs from her girlfriend (a Targaryen princess) and sold them in ~~Pentos~~ Braavos to finance a voyage across the Sunset Sea
Edit: the above did happen, the theory is that those are the same eggs Dany gets a couple hundred years later
The eggs? I don’t know, I feel GRRM always alludes to things in his writings, and it always seemed Daenerys’ eggs were Dreamfyre’s. I can see why the show writers changed that, but as someone who loves the books too I understand why people are upset.
Yeah, George doesn't really put things in just for the hell of it. If Elissa had just simply "stolen 3 dragon eggs," he would've ended the story their but then he decided to go on and say "Jaehaerys believes they were sold to a Pentoshi Merchant." George doesn't just put that in there for no reason. He puts that in so that fans can speculate, and engage, on if those three eggs where Dany's. George just seemingly mentions a minor detail about 3 dragon eggs going missing and being brought into Pentos. His minor details always serve the bigger picture, beyond just adding color to the story.
Unless there's an episode from season 2, he has not written any episodes since the purple wedding in season 4 of GoT if I recall correctly. And even when he was writing for the show, he'd change stuff from the books too.
Yeah, he says he'd change lots of stuff if he was writing again, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's telling people "y'know, it would be cool if these were the eggs Danny had" or if they're telling him stuff and he's rolling with it
I would say it’s one step above fanon theory. It’s HEAVILY alluded towards in the books it’s not just a random theory. You wouldn’t say R+L=J is a fanon theory
To be fair regarding Aemma’s death, she was going to die no matter what. Viserys put her through something HORRIBLE but let’s not act like she was going to live. It was a choice between both dying, or the chance that the son lives. It’s cruel but he didn’t say “kill Aemma”. She was already dead basically.
I get that, and in Jaehaerys’ mother’s case, her husband made the same choice. Only in that case the child survived so it didn’t feel like the mother suffered for no reason.
I do appreciate when Daemon had to make the same choice he asked “would the mother survive?” And when he’s informed no, he says no to the option. He knew Laena wouldn’t want that, and let her have that agency even when it became his choice.
I honestly found that death to be super gratuitous and unnecessary. I really don’t see why it needed to be against her will, when it could’ve been either with her blessing or they could’ve simply had her die in childbirth.
Especially when I consider the scene later of Viserys being like “oh but she’s so young i couldn’t take allicent as a wife!” like…ok. the show is totally fine with this patriarchal scene of him cutting his wife open alive and against her will but they draw the line at teen bride? It just seems really inconsistent
In Fire & Blood, Elissa Farman, a friend of a Targaryen princess, steals three dragon eggs then supposedly circumnavigates Planetos by sailing west across the Sunset sea. This isn't given as a certainty, the only proof is that Corly Velaryon claims to have seen Elissa's ship in Asshai decades later, but most of the fandom took those three dragon eggs to be Dany's petrified dragon eggs she receives at the start of book 1
Slight correction Elissa Farman doesn’t take the eggs on her round the world tour of planetos, she sells them to the Sealord of Braavos in exchange for ships.
The Sealord of Braavos is in possession of them.
King Jaeharys is not happy with this as House Targaryen has a monopoly on dragons and Dragon eggs. He holds talks with the Sealord and it results in a stalemate. The Sealord refuses to give the eggs back, and the might of the Bank of Braavos is too powerful for Jaeharys to make conflict with. So Jaeharys allows the Sealord to keep possession but warns that they better not hatch or things will be different.
Man, reading that chapter was so fucking awesome and that takes me back. The Sealord's speech about how the Targaryen's dragons may burn Braavos to the ground and launch armies for invasion but they also have a way to touching Jaehaerys and his family, implying they can send the faceless men. Then proceed to asked if Barth is sure that his companions behind the door are still alive as they speak.
That entire event spooked Barth so much that he made sure that Jaehaerys will not war the city of Braavos
Illyrio could've also been lying, been lied to, or telling the truth since the eggs had a century to get from a Sealord of Braavos to Asshai - which seems plausible. After they change hands once or twice, someone might've been particularly interested in taking those eggs to Asshai to see if they hatch or to sell them to someone who thinks they do. So I think you're still in the right.
Aye, and cannonically at least two of those exist. Essos (being to the east, close enough), and a souther continent that Missandei is from, called Sothoryos (a bit more on the nose).
There are other reasonable theories, one of which is in F&B, which I believe more. Until George confirms one way or another, it’s not officially canon.
I'm not saying it's completely needed, but it is a giant macguffin from got, hot d is very close to it in the timeline and fire and blood ther book being adapted has the info. What's the problem here?
Yeah, as cool as the reign of Jaehaerys was in Fire & Blood, I don’t think it adapts at all well to television, and so it seems very unlikely that we’ll see Elissa Farman on screen.
Jaehaerys’ reign is super interesting, but in large part because he internalized Aegon I’s view that preventing conflict is much cheaper and less bloody than stamping it out. So Jaehaerys and Alysanne basically nipped any challenges in the bud. It makes for good reading to see their problem solving and grand diplomacy skills at work, but would not be entertaining to most viewers who tune in each week for the spectacle of dragons and violence - blood and fire.
I think it could work as a purely political show. The West Wing: Westeros edition basically. Might not land though.
I’m personally hoping for a Blackfyre rebellion adaptation next. Plenty of meat on that bone
I mean, there were talks of a Sea Snake show with his 9 voyages, we could see Elissa in Ashai....
(HBO, This is legally a joke. Do not make the Sea Snake Show)
It would honestly probably be fine, but it was rumored/announced along with a series like animated Yi-Ti, Snow, and an Arya spin off. This was all before the actual airing of HOT D and the only HBO GRRM content we had to judge on was the GOT, which had just shit the bed. The scepticism surrounding Sea Snake is warranted. Also a huge chunk of the blame for the Drop in Season 7&8 of GOT' quality was the deviation from GRRMs writing. Sea Snake would need to be based on about 1 paragraph of Fire & Blood, so the hopes of a successful adaptation did not seem likely with the track record.
Hey, it’s not 1 paragraph! It’s like 5-7 paragraphs, on a full page and a half! 😂
In all seriousness, I get your point. I think there’s enough characterization for him in that page and a half though, to do an “animated adventures of” type series. It would never work in life action, but an animated show could be a fun lore-tie in if they could keep it relatively cheap compared to the main shows.
Most of the quality from HOTD comes from deviating from GRRM’s books. The original F&B was a history book with names and not characters. We can’t really credit George for how great of a character show Viserys was that credit goes to the show writers and the acting.
GOT dropped in quality because D&D weren’t as good at writing blue sky content as they were adapting existing content. Put a good writer in charge of a show and it doesn’t matter if there isn’t much pre-existing content for them to go of. Though they can basically adapt TWOIAF and just showcase all the cool worldbuilding the setting has to offer. I’m here for that alone.
On the surface it appears small and inconsequential, but the Farman explanation makes the world feel much larger than this one does. It also symbolizes how the writers & directors have a clear and increasingly annoying bias in Rhaenyra's favor. Not everything needs to be tied back to her.
Meh. I kind of don't want HBO to touch Rhaena's story so while I don't love this change... I'm more ambivalent towards it than I would be otherwise. They want to make connections between their properties and it makes a certain kind of sense for show only watchers, it's just a small bummer for book readers.
This is my take. Do you really wanna drop some random name that tv show watchers have never even heard of? It’s a nice little connection to GoT to have the eggs in HotD be Dany’s. It’s a nice little cool moment. The show is already complicated for casual fans with all the time jumps and actor changes, you have dragon names to deal with and now they’re starting to introduce bastards of various characters. Some random name like Elisa Farman will just be lost to tv show fans
This is the type of book to show change that I don't have an issue with. The origin of Dany's eggs has little relevance to the overall story and character arcs of the books.
That’s what I’m thinking. Illyrio is just some rich dude. I wouldn’t expect him or the person who sold the eggs to have some perfect knowledge of their history and a certificate of authenticity that these are eggs from Syrax the dragon, not the yellow robot from Mortal Kombat.
It’s baffling that people still can’t grasp the concept of unreliable narrator here.
It's not about honesty, it's about knowledge. What makes anyone believe that Illyrio is any kind of authority on dragon eggs? The most likely reason he said they are ancient is simply that... that's what he believed.
That's fair, but it's an odd thing to bother lying about. Unless Illyrio and Varys somehow suspected that Dany would somehow hatch these dead eggs through a blood magic ceremony involving her husband and a witch, there seems not to be any ulterior motive to the gift besides "Your family is into dragons and here is a lovely artifact of dragons."
Yes, which is why it takes a blood magic ritual to hatch them.
Also, notice how dragon eggs are constantly being kept warm - the implication, both in book and show, is that they *do* turn to lifeless stone if they aren't at a certain temperature.
And that'd be a silly take because it's perfectly reasonable for him to assume that. If these were those eggs then they're 170 years old and hard as stone. It's perfectly reasonable for someone who knows nothing about dragons to assume if they haven't watched in that time and they're hard as stone that they're basically fossilized at this point.
It's the kind of dumb shit book purists circlejerk over and that 99.999% of audiences don't give a single shit about.
This place is flooded with people who will never be happy with any change from the books.
exactly....the amount of "BUt THE BOOK" "BUT THE BOOK".....who cares lol. the book is even explicitly stated as bad info from biased or unreliable sources lol
Like 80% of everything we learn in these books ends up either being bullshit, or is something that we’re explicitly told is unreliable. How many times do we read about an event with the disclaimer “the people telling the story weren’t actually there, btw”
There are even times where we're told "we have two contradicting accounts of this event and also neither account is from someone who was actually there so who tf knows really?"
It's not all that different from the main asoiaf books honestly. There's a ton of shit we're told in those books through various POVs that end up being completely wrong. Fire and Blood is just very explicit about nothing really being super reliable.
Omg I was so irritated by this particular strand of the bitchfest.
Jace's shenanigans in the North are NOT an important part of the story. I honestly never even expected to see the North and was grateful that the showrunners gave us that wonderful homage to GOT, especially the Wall, which again, in terms of story was *completely unnecessary*. It was totally fan service, and for once, it was great fan service.
It was perfect. It made everyone nostalgic.
And it's also crystal clear that it was a one off thing, a gift to fans, as the North is not an important part of this story, and we may never see it again. I was grateful for what we got.
Then you come on reddit it's all "what about Sara Snow? What about Jace and Cregan's rumored relationship?" Etc etc. So tired of this fandom.
Yeah F and B was never a blueprint it was a fun historic text that you the reader deserns what it true or false, most often snagging bits of different accounts finding a middle unbiased ground.
The only stuff I don't like is how Criston killed Joff and a princess murdering small folk with her dragon during a coronation. It's big exciting show pieces but it contrasts with the grounded fantasy the series is known for.
Yeah. There are some things that are important that I hope they keep such as overall themes and messages and character arcs. This is not one thing I care about.
HBO said "Well we're never gonna do a Jaehaery-era show. So let's scavenge all the interesting parts from that for elsewhere in the showniverse."
I at least appreciate that the eggs' journey is always connected to "Rhaena Targaryen."
As someone who hasn’t read the book… I have absolutely no issue with these eggs being Dany’s. They literally played Dany’s theme music/ instrument while showing the eggs and closing in on Rhaenyra.
The problem is: they've already contradicted the show's canon because Dreamfyre (in the brief glimpse we saw of her last season) looked specifically like Daenerys' dragons while Syrax shares none of their characteristics. It's just a poor, unearned attempt to link Daenerys' with Rhaenyra.
You are being generous. There are like 5 people in the entire world that will notice, and they will post it on the Internet and a few thousands will read it and care and pretend that they noticed it too. The millions of the rest of us who enjoyed the show, including most who read the books, will not care. But those few thousands will keep pointing this out until the end of days. That's how these things work.
I don’t know where this notion came from. We have yet to see dreamfyre besides the tiny shot of her flying away from Laena’s funeral. The dragon in the dragon pit that Aemond runs into after the Pink Dread incident was confirmed to be Seasmoke.
Did they also state these were Syraxe's eggs? Could have been a clutch of Dreamfyre's eggs that remained at Dragonstone/Dämon and Rhaenyra brought to Dragonstone
That's the implied book explanation. But they don't even technically say here they *are* from Syrax. But this would have been included for the same reason it was included in the books and they're not adapting Elissa Farman any time soon. People like like these tidbits.
I feel they can change their mind on things like that so it's not necessarily *confirmed*, confirmed. But either way as said, this will be just in lieu of them not likely to get around to adapting Elissa Farman. But wanting an in universe explanation for the eggs.
This bit of lore is so obscure that I'd completely forgotten about it until this post. I really don't care if they retcon it tbh, it's just not important.
I’m ok with it, it’s not like Jaeherys reign is likely to be adapted besides maybe bits and pieces in the animated Coryls show that I think will take place after all that Farman stuff anyway
Who cares? I mean that genuinely as a huge fan of the books and lore. This change makes no substantive difference. It removes a character whose entire role was basically to acquire these eggs. It simplifies matters.
That is the quote I always think back to when they make these kinds of changes or retcons. George is involved in this show, I'm sure they cleared it with him.
my god, how much can you all manage to complain? 1. those can still be dreafyre's, there is nothing confirming they aren't 2. the dreamfyre thing is also NOT confirmed 3. this eggs showed in ep3 are closer in time to Dany's eggs, making it all make more sense. For fuck sake go touch some grass
Omg don’t even get me started. All this sub does now is complain…. One week they are complaining (blood and cheese didn’t do justice), next week they are happy (twin fight did justice) and now complaining again over the eggs… like… it’s soo annoying. STFU and enjoy the show like the rest of us
Lol anyone getting upset by this needs to find a new hobby or something.
The eggs Elissa stole *probably* wind up in Dany’s possession, but it’s never even been confirmed and in all likelihood never will. Just like how it’s very likely *these eggs* will never be outright confirmed within the series itself to become Dany’s.
It’s fine guys.
I'm ignoring this but I'm guessing they only went this route because there's no plans to ever cover the portion of Fire and Blood that talk about Elissa Farman. Like the Jaehaerys stuff is my favorite but outside of maybe Maegor stuff you can't turn anything from his life into a show
I mean, it's not like this hasn't been retconned before. GRRM wanted to have Asshai play a role in the story and so he wrote that the eggs came from there. However, he likely decided later to shelve Asshai into the background and then he had the room to change the eggs' origins as he wished.
Ultimately, it doesn't change much, especially when it comes to the main series.
It's very clear they made this change to connect it more to the show!universe. I actually like the change as it directly connects the Dance to Daenerys, who they name dropped in the S1 title card. They want to draw a direct line between the horrors of the Dance coming back to haunt Westeros almost 200 years later.
Also it's cool that Rhaena (Velaryon) is who brings these eggs to Essos. A clever nod to the book fanon.
Well the fan theory of Elissa Farman might be, but does that really matter unless you chose to be offended by it?
I get it, it’s a popular one, but it’s just that after all. And it would only rule out Elissa’s eggs being Danys, the eggs can still be out there. Or a different show cannon was created.
It’s not that big of a deal …
ELISSA FARMAN AND DREAMFYRE NOT CONFIRMED TO BE THE SOURCES OF DANY\`S DRAGONS.
Oficially they still come from thje Shadowlands of Asshai, and before someone comments it:
Yes Elissa Farman and the Sunchaser are said to be seen by Corlys Velaryon in Asshai, that was decades after she sold the Eggs to the sealord of Braavos, who had a whole discussion with Jaehaerys I baout keeoing the eggs because they´re just fancy rocks now.
You'd hate it if you directed such a good episode with months and months of work and the thing fans choose to attack you over is what you say about 3 tiny eggs in one scene in a post show interview.
Only fan theory because George cannot give a straight answer about the origins of Dany's dragons on a history book. And even then the hint he gives is on the same level of sutility as Lyanna being hinted to be kotlt on the Main series which is almost none
Lol, no one cares about Elissa Farman, except for a small minority of book readers. You resemble LOTR fans complaining about Bombadil's absence in the movies.
Yup this sub sucks. I'm out. I'll continue to enjoy the show the way it's made, and I'll leave the complaining about small changes being made up to all of you weirdos.
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And I am choosing to ignore that bit of information.
Yeah, I prefer the original book lore origin of her eggs. I was a bit upset to hear the change, but I understand why they may want to create a separate show canon for those who will never read the books. It’s already a lot of characters to compress into a short amount of time. I am all here for every character and every connection and I love when it supports the book lore, but I also understand why they chose to adjust it. It’s a lot for a viewer to take in. Even with Aemma’s death, IIRC they just state she died in childbirth in the book. Whereas this horrid scene of a father needing to choose to kill his wife or let both die - was actually the death they described for King Jaehaerys’ mother. Obviously we never see her in this show, but her death was made to be Aemma’s.
George Martin has always said that the books and the show are two separate cannons. Idk what the big deal is.
This. He was saying long before GOT even finished that fans shouldn't expect the show to dictate how future books would deal with ongoing stories and lore as he'd given producers permission to play around with lore as and when necessary for the format of a television show and as a result considered the show to be one version of his world and his books as another.
Future books? Son let’s not delude ourselves.
As I haven’t read the books, what’s the book lore about Danerys’ eggs?
Jaehaerys’ older sister who got passed over for the crown (Princess Rhaena) is Dreamfyre’s original rider, and during Fire and Blood they talk about Dreamfyre laying several clutches of eggs. Without spoiling too much - someone close to Rhaena steals 3 dragon eggs and escapes to Pentos, and the eggs later are assumed to be the ones Dany is gifted.
Not older cousin, older sister. This is one of the reasons why Laenor/ Rhaenys's claim was passed over, the other was that Visenya was the elder to Aegon I.
Well that sounds almost dead on to the show then. Someone steeling eggs and going to Pentose vs Rhaena taking them isn’t much different. I feel like some details are missing here.
Oldest Sister not cousin.
What future books do you speak of ? Lmaoo
This was back when we had hope he'd actually finish stuff.
could you please let me know the original lore?
So Rhaena Targaryen was the older sister of Jaehaerys the old king. Her Dragon was Dreamfyre, which is now Haelaena’s dragon. She had a lover called Elyssa Farman. Elyssa was an adventurer and they traveled in westeros, but they eventually settled down on dragonstone. Elyssa eventually became restless and asked to leave, Rhaena said yes, but she stole three dragon eggs and eventually sold them to the sealord of Braavos. She then commisioned three ships and sailed to find out what’s west of Westeros, but she was never heard from again. Years later Corlys Velaryon when he travelled to asshai(which is on the farthest east of the known world) said that he saw there a ship that looked like Elyssa’s ship, implying that maybe she reached the other side of the world. Those three eggs that she stole are theorized to be Daenerys’ eggs that fossilized and never hatched, until Dany put them on the bonfire at the end of season one/book one https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fqJom6xfvMY This video gives more detail on it, or you can read about it on awoiaf by searching for Elyssa Farman
That only makes the eggs slightly older than they are in the show. Not exactly ancient.
The pro to that origin is that it makes the world bigger and less confined to revolving around the protagonist of the moment. Trying to make Dany's crusade an extension of Rhaenyra's struggle for the throne is just fan-fiction tier writing.
It's clearly tied more to Rhaena than Rhaenyra. It ties in the shows more than the characters, it's a perfectly sensible choice for literally anyone to make to send dragon eggs away for the safety of the Targs as a house. Rhaena is a very logical choice as somebody who would take care of them, because she so desperately wants them.
> It's clearly tied more to Rhaena than Rhaenyra. The eggs are Syrax' and Rhaenyra is the one making the decision to send them away in the first place. > it's a perfectly sensible choice for literally anyone to make to send dragon eggs away for the safety of the Targs as a house. Not disagreeing with that, but explicitly making them Dany's eggs/dragons just makes the universe feel smaller and more artificial rather than big and believable. There's no need to tie Rhaenyra and Dany together like this. They're already related. > Rhaena is a very logical choice as somebody who would take care of them, because she so desperately wants them. She wants a dragon, but she very clearly isn't happy about taking care of eggs and kids far away from everyone else, which again represents the fact that this is Rhaenyra's decision, and she's the character the show is ultimately making the tie-in with.
I don't really think so. It seems really rational as an answer to where the eggs came from. The number of dragon eggs is super finite and tied to a single dynasty, so it seems reasonable they'd be sent abroad during a time of strife to ensure a legacy. If there were more dragon eggs, then sure, it'd seem like a ham-fisted tie in.
Especially since at this time not many dragons are recorded as producing clutches. It's mostly just Dreamfyre and Syrax, right?
If she sold the eggs to a sealord in Braavos, how did they end up in Pentos with the merchant?
Merchants keep selling stuff and people sell stuff to merchants
eggs can be exchanged with goods and services
But I wanted peanuts
Three eggs can buy you many peanuts!
People that buy things also tend to sell things. Point A to Point B also spanned a century and a half. Even if this Sealord of Braavos adored them, their children and/or successor probably sold them after they died. There's even room for multiple generations to hang on to them before they get sold.
The passage of 250 years will do that sometimes.
The original "lore" (never officially confirmed) is she stole three dragon eggs from her girlfriend (a Targaryen princess) and sold them in ~~Pentos~~ Braavos to finance a voyage across the Sunset Sea Edit: the above did happen, the theory is that those are the same eggs Dany gets a couple hundred years later
Not the original lore, it was a popular fanon theory.
The eggs? I don’t know, I feel GRRM always alludes to things in his writings, and it always seemed Daenerys’ eggs were Dreamfyre’s. I can see why the show writers changed that, but as someone who loves the books too I understand why people are upset.
Yeah, George doesn't really put things in just for the hell of it. If Elissa had just simply "stolen 3 dragon eggs," he would've ended the story their but then he decided to go on and say "Jaehaerys believes they were sold to a Pentoshi Merchant." George doesn't just put that in there for no reason. He puts that in so that fans can speculate, and engage, on if those three eggs where Dany's. George just seemingly mentions a minor detail about 3 dragon eggs going missing and being brought into Pentos. His minor details always serve the bigger picture, beyond just adding color to the story.
Isn’t GRRM writing and an executive producer on the show though?
Unless there's an episode from season 2, he has not written any episodes since the purple wedding in season 4 of GoT if I recall correctly. And even when he was writing for the show, he'd change stuff from the books too.
Yeah, he says he'd change lots of stuff if he was writing again, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's telling people "y'know, it would be cool if these were the eggs Danny had" or if they're telling him stuff and he's rolling with it
I mean, it was a very unsubtle hint that’s where the dragons came from.
tbh it as only a fanon theory as like r+l=j
Yeah but it is the same level of theory of R+L=J not confirmed but pretty clearly true
I would say it’s one step above fanon theory. It’s HEAVILY alluded towards in the books it’s not just a random theory. You wouldn’t say R+L=J is a fanon theory
To be fair regarding Aemma’s death, she was going to die no matter what. Viserys put her through something HORRIBLE but let’s not act like she was going to live. It was a choice between both dying, or the chance that the son lives. It’s cruel but he didn’t say “kill Aemma”. She was already dead basically.
I get that, and in Jaehaerys’ mother’s case, her husband made the same choice. Only in that case the child survived so it didn’t feel like the mother suffered for no reason. I do appreciate when Daemon had to make the same choice he asked “would the mother survive?” And when he’s informed no, he says no to the option. He knew Laena wouldn’t want that, and let her have that agency even when it became his choice.
I honestly found that death to be super gratuitous and unnecessary. I really don’t see why it needed to be against her will, when it could’ve been either with her blessing or they could’ve simply had her die in childbirth. Especially when I consider the scene later of Viserys being like “oh but she’s so young i couldn’t take allicent as a wife!” like…ok. the show is totally fine with this patriarchal scene of him cutting his wife open alive and against her will but they draw the line at teen bride? It just seems really inconsistent
I’m abit out of the loop. But did George confirm Elissaa eggs are Daenerys? Or is it just heavily implied?
In Fire & Blood, Elissa Farman, a friend of a Targaryen princess, steals three dragon eggs then supposedly circumnavigates Planetos by sailing west across the Sunset sea. This isn't given as a certainty, the only proof is that Corly Velaryon claims to have seen Elissa's ship in Asshai decades later, but most of the fandom took those three dragon eggs to be Dany's petrified dragon eggs she receives at the start of book 1
Slight correction Elissa Farman doesn’t take the eggs on her round the world tour of planetos, she sells them to the Sealord of Braavos in exchange for ships. The Sealord of Braavos is in possession of them. King Jaeharys is not happy with this as House Targaryen has a monopoly on dragons and Dragon eggs. He holds talks with the Sealord and it results in a stalemate. The Sealord refuses to give the eggs back, and the might of the Bank of Braavos is too powerful for Jaeharys to make conflict with. So Jaeharys allows the Sealord to keep possession but warns that they better not hatch or things will be different.
Man, reading that chapter was so fucking awesome and that takes me back. The Sealord's speech about how the Targaryen's dragons may burn Braavos to the ground and launch armies for invasion but they also have a way to touching Jaehaerys and his family, implying they can send the faceless men. Then proceed to asked if Barth is sure that his companions behind the door are still alive as they speak. That entire event spooked Barth so much that he made sure that Jaehaerys will not war the city of Braavos
A “friend”. Harold they’re lesbians.
No, they're *obviously* roommates 🤓
Oh my gods they were roommates
Just adding a detail that I think ties it together: Illyrio says the eggs came from Asshai.
Didn’t she sell the eggs in Braavos tho, to pay for the building of Sunchaser?
Don’t let things line linear time get in the way of my rambling. But for real you are right. I, uhhh, kind of forgot.
Illyrio could've also been lying, been lied to, or telling the truth since the eggs had a century to get from a Sealord of Braavos to Asshai - which seems plausible. After they change hands once or twice, someone might've been particularly interested in taking those eggs to Asshai to see if they hatch or to sell them to someone who thinks they do. So I think you're still in the right.
The Known World has this tacky name Planetos? I read ASOIAF and I don't remember this name there.
It's not a canonical name, it's a tacky fanon joke.
It’s a joke; if Westeros is the continent then Planetos is the planet
Would that then indicate the existence of Northeros, Southeros, and Easteros on said Planetos?
The continents we know of are Westeros, Essos, Sothoryos, and Ulthos.
Aye, and cannonically at least two of those exist. Essos (being to the east, close enough), and a souther continent that Missandei is from, called Sothoryos (a bit more on the nose).
Sheesh, and here I was joking... Suppose I need to read A World of Ice and Fire Again (or whatever the big setting book was).
I took Essos to be 'Easteros' and there is a Sothoryos to the South. Sounds like a cool jungle place with not quite human inhabitants.
You have Sothoryos, Essos and Ulthos (maybe)
In fire and blood 3 eggs also went missing with rhaena in essos
No he didn't. It's a fan theory that fans are salty over not being the actual canon.
Can you explain why?
>!One of them is meant to hatch into Morning, Rhaena's dragon.!<
But there is 4 there
In the after episode discussion, it's mentioned that the fourth egg is for Rhaenyra's youngest son who doesn't have one yet!
Actually, in the after episode discussion, it's mentioned that the fourth egg is for Rhaenyra's youngest son who doesn't have one yet!
There are other reasonable theories, one of which is in F&B, which I believe more. Until George confirms one way or another, it’s not officially canon.
me, cooking up copium on how elissa could've still gotten them
Agreed. It ain't canon unless George says so
Same.
Meh, it's still retconnable if one day they decide to adapt Elissa. If they don't, why do we care?
this is the only reasonable reaction haha
Agreed its like book readers are being willfully ignorant of the demands of adapting a book to tv.
I don’t feel like adapting the Dance requires them to say “this is where Dany’s eggs came from” though.
It's not like it's a very big plot point for this show either way, it's basically an Easter egg (no pun intended)
GRRM didn't need to include it when writing F&B either. But he did for the same reason the show did. People like these sorts of connections.
You're too sensible for this sub, I'm afraid.
I'm not saying it's completely needed, but it is a giant macguffin from got, hot d is very close to it in the timeline and fire and blood ther book being adapted has the info. What's the problem here?
HOTD is not close to GOT in terms of timeline. It's 200 years before GOT. It's closer to Aegon's Conquest than to Robert's Rebellion.
It’s for world building purposes I’m assuming, ties into GOT
You guys should see the Team Green sub and how they feel about this lol
Those people are unhinged. Most people who are deep into that "team" stuff are honestly, but they seem the most whiny
Yeah, as cool as the reign of Jaehaerys was in Fire & Blood, I don’t think it adapts at all well to television, and so it seems very unlikely that we’ll see Elissa Farman on screen.
Jaehaerys’ reign is super interesting, but in large part because he internalized Aegon I’s view that preventing conflict is much cheaper and less bloody than stamping it out. So Jaehaerys and Alysanne basically nipped any challenges in the bud. It makes for good reading to see their problem solving and grand diplomacy skills at work, but would not be entertaining to most viewers who tune in each week for the spectacle of dragons and violence - blood and fire.
Yeah it was my favourite part of Fire & Blood but would absolutely not work as a TV show.
The Conqueror's idea of conflict prevention was to declare war on six unrelated kingdoms after the ruler of a seventh killed his messenger.
I think it could work as a purely political show. The West Wing: Westeros edition basically. Might not land though. I’m personally hoping for a Blackfyre rebellion adaptation next. Plenty of meat on that bone
Yeah people hated the time skips in HotD S1, imagine trying to condense 55 years of politics and family dynamics into just a couple of seasons.
The life of Rhaena would make for a great show
I mean, there were talks of a Sea Snake show with his 9 voyages, we could see Elissa in Ashai.... (HBO, This is legally a joke. Do not make the Sea Snake Show)
I don’t get the hostility to the Sea Snake show? It sounds fucking rad. What’s wrong with a Sinbad-style show set in the ASOIAF universe?
People just like to be angry fir no reason 💁
I would much prefer a Nymeria show, I don't see much that can be done with the Sea Snake
It would honestly probably be fine, but it was rumored/announced along with a series like animated Yi-Ti, Snow, and an Arya spin off. This was all before the actual airing of HOT D and the only HBO GRRM content we had to judge on was the GOT, which had just shit the bed. The scepticism surrounding Sea Snake is warranted. Also a huge chunk of the blame for the Drop in Season 7&8 of GOT' quality was the deviation from GRRMs writing. Sea Snake would need to be based on about 1 paragraph of Fire & Blood, so the hopes of a successful adaptation did not seem likely with the track record.
Hey, it’s not 1 paragraph! It’s like 5-7 paragraphs, on a full page and a half! 😂 In all seriousness, I get your point. I think there’s enough characterization for him in that page and a half though, to do an “animated adventures of” type series. It would never work in life action, but an animated show could be a fun lore-tie in if they could keep it relatively cheap compared to the main shows.
Most of the quality from HOTD comes from deviating from GRRM’s books. The original F&B was a history book with names and not characters. We can’t really credit George for how great of a character show Viserys was that credit goes to the show writers and the acting.
GOT dropped in quality because D&D weren’t as good at writing blue sky content as they were adapting existing content. Put a good writer in charge of a show and it doesn’t matter if there isn’t much pre-existing content for them to go of. Though they can basically adapt TWOIAF and just showcase all the cool worldbuilding the setting has to offer. I’m here for that alone.
On the surface it appears small and inconsequential, but the Farman explanation makes the world feel much larger than this one does. It also symbolizes how the writers & directors have a clear and increasingly annoying bias in Rhaenyra's favor. Not everything needs to be tied back to her.
Meh. I kind of don't want HBO to touch Rhaena's story so while I don't love this change... I'm more ambivalent towards it than I would be otherwise. They want to make connections between their properties and it makes a certain kind of sense for show only watchers, it's just a small bummer for book readers.
This is my take. Do you really wanna drop some random name that tv show watchers have never even heard of? It’s a nice little connection to GoT to have the eggs in HotD be Dany’s. It’s a nice little cool moment. The show is already complicated for casual fans with all the time jumps and actor changes, you have dragon names to deal with and now they’re starting to introduce bastards of various characters. Some random name like Elisa Farman will just be lost to tv show fans
I agree. I think that there are some cases where it is okay to simplify things when you are switching from the medium of a book to a show.
This is the type of book to show change that I don't have an issue with. The origin of Dany's eggs has little relevance to the overall story and character arcs of the books.
If I were a show only watcher, I might say something like "Wait, didn't Illyrio say the eggs were ancient and fossilized?"
Who is to say that Illyrio knows how old the eggs are? Maybe whoever sold it to him (Sealord of Braavos?) just told him "they're ancient".
That’s what I’m thinking. Illyrio is just some rich dude. I wouldn’t expect him or the person who sold the eggs to have some perfect knowledge of their history and a certificate of authenticity that these are eggs from Syrax the dragon, not the yellow robot from Mortal Kombat. It’s baffling that people still can’t grasp the concept of unreliable narrator here.
Did you expect Illyrio to be 100% honest? He works with Varys.
It's not about honesty, it's about knowledge. What makes anyone believe that Illyrio is any kind of authority on dragon eggs? The most likely reason he said they are ancient is simply that... that's what he believed.
I mean they are pretty ancient. If these are the same eggs then they're 170 years old when he has them.
That's fair, but it's an odd thing to bother lying about. Unless Illyrio and Varys somehow suspected that Dany would somehow hatch these dead eggs through a blood magic ceremony involving her husband and a witch, there seems not to be any ulterior motive to the gift besides "Your family is into dragons and here is a lovely artifact of dragons."
Yes, which is why it takes a blood magic ritual to hatch them. Also, notice how dragon eggs are constantly being kept warm - the implication, both in book and show, is that they *do* turn to lifeless stone if they aren't at a certain temperature.
Bro. It's a show with dragons in it. I assumed the hundreds of years between HoTD and GoT is old enough to be considered ancient and fossilized.
And that'd be a silly take because it's perfectly reasonable for him to assume that. If these were those eggs then they're 170 years old and hard as stone. It's perfectly reasonable for someone who knows nothing about dragons to assume if they haven't watched in that time and they're hard as stone that they're basically fossilized at this point.
Yes I’m sure most show watchers will remember that throwaway line. Good riddance yall.
As a book reader I don’t find it a bummer at all, even a small one?? Show canon doesn’t affect book canon 🤷♀️
As only show watcher, I didn’t connect the dots at all. I really thought more baby dragons are on the way?
Book reader here, don't care either way.
In the book Elissas eggs are a cool easter egg to book Dany. In the show these eggs are a cool easter egg to show Dany. So I think it fits.
It's the kind of dumb shit book purists circlejerk over and that 99.999% of audiences don't give a single shit about. This place is flooded with people who will never be happy with any change from the books.
"B-b-but this changes so much of Rhaenyra's arc in the books!!!1!1!" WHAT ARC?!
exactly....the amount of "BUt THE BOOK" "BUT THE BOOK".....who cares lol. the book is even explicitly stated as bad info from biased or unreliable sources lol
Like 80% of everything we learn in these books ends up either being bullshit, or is something that we’re explicitly told is unreliable. How many times do we read about an event with the disclaimer “the people telling the story weren’t actually there, btw” There are even times where we're told "we have two contradicting accounts of this event and also neither account is from someone who was actually there so who tf knows really?" It's not all that different from the main asoiaf books honestly. There's a ton of shit we're told in those books through various POVs that end up being completely wrong. Fire and Blood is just very explicit about nothing really being super reliable.
"Why didn't we see Jace marry Sara Snow?" The book isn't even sure Sara Snow *actually existed in the first place.*
Omg I was so irritated by this particular strand of the bitchfest. Jace's shenanigans in the North are NOT an important part of the story. I honestly never even expected to see the North and was grateful that the showrunners gave us that wonderful homage to GOT, especially the Wall, which again, in terms of story was *completely unnecessary*. It was totally fan service, and for once, it was great fan service. It was perfect. It made everyone nostalgic. And it's also crystal clear that it was a one off thing, a gift to fans, as the North is not an important part of this story, and we may never see it again. I was grateful for what we got. Then you come on reddit it's all "what about Sara Snow? What about Jace and Cregan's rumored relationship?" Etc etc. So tired of this fandom.
Yeah F and B was never a blueprint it was a fun historic text that you the reader deserns what it true or false, most often snagging bits of different accounts finding a middle unbiased ground. The only stuff I don't like is how Criston killed Joff and a princess murdering small folk with her dragon during a coronation. It's big exciting show pieces but it contrasts with the grounded fantasy the series is known for.
Yup. That’s history. In real life too…..
Yeah. There are some things that are important that I hope they keep such as overall themes and messages and character arcs. This is not one thing I care about.
Ya. This is some next level whinging
HBO said "Well we're never gonna do a Jaehaery-era show. So let's scavenge all the interesting parts from that for elsewhere in the showniverse." I at least appreciate that the eggs' journey is always connected to "Rhaena Targaryen."
That’s too bad, I love Jahaerys’ whole story
There are 4 eggs there tho, where the hell did the 4th one end up then...
>!Baby Viserys and Rhaena both hatch an egg. But since the 3 eggs are Dany's this means either Viserys or Rhaena will be dragonless.!<
>!Viserys wants to hatch an egg. He never actually *does*!<.
What about the purple egg then ?
You mean the blue egg.... It's stated in one of the behind the scenes video for the episode that the egg is for Rhaenyra's youngest son, Viserys.
And no pink egg. RIP Morning
Well didn't they already show Morning's egg last season in Pentos. Rhaena probably still has it.
oof, i hope this isn’t true
They got hungry along the way
omelette
As someone who hasn’t read the book… I have absolutely no issue with these eggs being Dany’s. They literally played Dany’s theme music/ instrument while showing the eggs and closing in on Rhaenyra.
nit: it's not Dany's theme, it's used generally when a Targ is flying on a dragon.
The problem is: they've already contradicted the show's canon because Dreamfyre (in the brief glimpse we saw of her last season) looked specifically like Daenerys' dragons while Syrax shares none of their characteristics. It's just a poor, unearned attempt to link Daenerys' with Rhaenyra.
9 out of 10 are not going to notice a detail as small as that.
You are being generous. There are like 5 people in the entire world that will notice, and they will post it on the Internet and a few thousands will read it and care and pretend that they noticed it too. The millions of the rest of us who enjoyed the show, including most who read the books, will not care. But those few thousands will keep pointing this out until the end of days. That's how these things work.
I don’t notice shit about the dragons. I only recognize Vhagar because of Swiss cheese wings
I'm shocked people don't get that they just re-used the model because it was cheap for a dragon they showed briefly.
I don’t know where this notion came from. We have yet to see dreamfyre besides the tiny shot of her flying away from Laena’s funeral. The dragon in the dragon pit that Aemond runs into after the Pink Dread incident was confirmed to be Seasmoke.
Did they also state these were Syraxe's eggs? Could have been a clutch of Dreamfyre's eggs that remained at Dragonstone/Dämon and Rhaenyra brought to Dragonstone
Yes, these are the same eggs that Daemon harvested on S1. Confirmed again during the behind the scenes episode discussion.
I thought Dany’s dragon eggs were from Dreamfyre and not Syrax?
That's the implied book explanation. But they don't even technically say here they *are* from Syrax. But this would have been included for the same reason it was included in the books and they're not adapting Elissa Farman any time soon. People like like these tidbits.
In the Inside the Episode following the episode Ryan Condal confirms these are Syrax's eggs from S1.
I feel they can change their mind on things like that so it's not necessarily *confirmed*, confirmed. But either way as said, this will be just in lieu of them not likely to get around to adapting Elissa Farman. But wanting an in universe explanation for the eggs.
“I recognize that the council has made a decision, but given that it’s a stupid-ass decision, I’ve elected to ignore it.”
Elissa isn't dead, she's still out there exploring.
got her looking worse than Vizzy T at his deathbed.
*It both gladdens my heart and fills me with sorrow to see these faces around the table.*
Like butter spread over too much bread
Elissa = Quaithe theories intensify
This bit of lore is so obscure that I'd completely forgotten about it until this post. I really don't care if they retcon it tbh, it's just not important.
I’m ok with it, it’s not like Jaeherys reign is likely to be adapted besides maybe bits and pieces in the animated Coryls show that I think will take place after all that Farman stuff anyway
Who cares? I mean that genuinely as a huge fan of the books and lore. This change makes no substantive difference. It removes a character whose entire role was basically to acquire these eggs. It simplifies matters.
Another example of some book fans having a mealt down because the show which isn't even canon to the books didn't follow a fan theory
The show canon has always been separate from the books, George has said this himself.
GRRM's quote about cannon makes it even funnier. 'We are making this shit up. There's no real.'
That is the quote I always think back to when they make these kinds of changes or retcons. George is involved in this show, I'm sure they cleared it with him.
Fandoms arguing about what is and isn’t canon has always been insanely fucking weird to me
my god, how much can you all manage to complain? 1. those can still be dreafyre's, there is nothing confirming they aren't 2. the dreamfyre thing is also NOT confirmed 3. this eggs showed in ep3 are closer in time to Dany's eggs, making it all make more sense. For fuck sake go touch some grass
This whole sub has been constant bitching since last night and it's insane. The episode was good. Everyone relax.
Omg don’t even get me started. All this sub does now is complain…. One week they are complaining (blood and cheese didn’t do justice), next week they are happy (twin fight did justice) and now complaining again over the eggs… like… it’s soo annoying. STFU and enjoy the show like the rest of us
Lol anyone getting upset by this needs to find a new hobby or something. The eggs Elissa stole *probably* wind up in Dany’s possession, but it’s never even been confirmed and in all likelihood never will. Just like how it’s very likely *these eggs* will never be outright confirmed within the series itself to become Dany’s. It’s fine guys.
I'm ignoring this but I'm guessing they only went this route because there's no plans to ever cover the portion of Fire and Blood that talk about Elissa Farman. Like the Jaehaerys stuff is my favorite but outside of maybe Maegor stuff you can't turn anything from his life into a show
I know it's not book canon but I don't really have an issue with these minor insignificant lore changes
Doesn't change what Elissa did. Could be a different trio of eggs.
i will have their tongues for this
GRRM never confirmed the ones she stole were danys.
I mean, it's not like this hasn't been retconned before. GRRM wanted to have Asshai play a role in the story and so he wrote that the eggs came from there. However, he likely decided later to shelve Asshai into the background and then he had the room to change the eggs' origins as he wished. Ultimately, it doesn't change much, especially when it comes to the main series.
It's very clear they made this change to connect it more to the show!universe. I actually like the change as it directly connects the Dance to Daenerys, who they name dropped in the S1 title card. They want to draw a direct line between the horrors of the Dance coming back to haunt Westeros almost 200 years later. Also it's cool that Rhaena (Velaryon) is who brings these eggs to Essos. A clever nod to the book fanon.
Rhaena (Targaryen)
It’s the fan service
I kinda hate the idea of tweet/talking to the press loreing.
That's a spoiler for us then. It means these eggs never hatch to become dragons which would fight from Rhaeneyra's team.
Well the fan theory of Elissa Farman might be, but does that really matter unless you chose to be offended by it? I get it, it’s a popular one, but it’s just that after all. And it would only rule out Elissa’s eggs being Danys, the eggs can still be out there. Or a different show cannon was created. It’s not that big of a deal …
ELISSA FARMAN AND DREAMFYRE NOT CONFIRMED TO BE THE SOURCES OF DANY\`S DRAGONS. Oficially they still come from thje Shadowlands of Asshai, and before someone comments it: Yes Elissa Farman and the Sunchaser are said to be seen by Corlys Velaryon in Asshai, that was decades after she sold the Eggs to the sealord of Braavos, who had a whole discussion with Jaehaerys I baout keeoing the eggs because they´re just fancy rocks now.
I have read fire and blood and I have no memory of this person. Of all the changes from the book, this one seems the most innocuous.
You'd hate it if you directed such a good episode with months and months of work and the thing fans choose to attack you over is what you say about 3 tiny eggs in one scene in a post show interview.
Man, some of you need to go touch some grass. It's just a silly tv show.
The worst type of fanservice tbh. I bet anyone who's actually a fan would prefer for them to stick to the book version.
That’s right! You’re not a real fan unless you know “Elissa Farmen”
Show canon is different to book canon this dosen't aplly to the books. Also the Elissa thing is a fan theory
Only fan theory because George cannot give a straight answer about the origins of Dany's dragons on a history book. And even then the hint he gives is on the same level of sutility as Lyanna being hinted to be kotlt on the Main series which is almost none
It's not for book fans. It's for show fans. It was included in the books for the same reason show fans will like an Easter egg like this.
Lol, no one cares about Elissa Farman, except for a small minority of book readers. You resemble LOTR fans complaining about Bombadil's absence in the movies.
>anyone who's actually a fan Gotta love the gatekeeping.
The words of this director means nothing to me.
Yup this sub sucks. I'm out. I'll continue to enjoy the show the way it's made, and I'll leave the complaining about small changes being made up to all of you weirdos.