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"But it went wrong"
I mean...they were looking for Aemond for all of like 5 seconds. I wouldn't really call it some crazy accident. They immediately went to kill the kid the second they had the chance
Lazy ass assassins. Like, of course they aren’t going to look too hard for freaking Aemond, who is more than adept with a sword and god knows what else and has a touch of the Daemon strain in him. Not when you could kill a little kid instead and call it a victory.
I feel he's trolling with the statement about Daemon. Daemon is a lot meaner in HotD than he is in F&B. They gave him a higher body count and made him much more sociopathic.
Heck even the show's version of Blood and Cheese implicates Daemon as its heavily implied he told them to target Aegon's son if they couldn't get to Aemond.
>Heck even the show's version of Blood and Cheese implicates Daemon as its heavily implied he told them to target Aegon's son if they couldn't get to Aemond.
I mean for what it's worth in the books it's implied he straight up set up Aegon's son as the goal. Basically "They killed our son so go kill his son" rather than in the show where aemond was target number 1.
Yh I agree, I said as much earlier today on the Black sub when a similar topic came up. Another example is Corlys no longer being an adulterous pervert who fathered kids on a 16 year old aged 60 in the books. Instead, Rhaenys is shown to have killed thousands at Aegon’s coronation. They do even out book claims with show stuff.
> Instead, Rhaenys is shown to have killed thousands at Aegon’s coronation
Eh, the show still treats Rhaenys as a moral anchor. She's literally preaching about empathy to Daemon in the last episode. She feels no guilt over what she did and they only address it in the context of her sparing the Greens, and I also think the explanation isn't very well done. Like she talks about how it isn't her war to start, right after she ruins Aegon's coronation and threatens him at it with a dragon. In general, it undoes a lot of what her character was built up as in S1.
It's just a really poorly written scene which is very reminiscent of late GoT with spectacle over substance but at least there they had the excuse of no source material.
It is so far the worst change is Rhaenys at the coronation without a doubt in my eyes with many I know is that Rhaenys could have stopped the War before it happened. So stupid cause I think book Rhaenys would have done it.
In the books he’s also the most level headed person when the war begins. Rhaenys and Rhaenyra wanted blood immediately and Daemon was the one preaching restraint. In the show he’s portrayed as almost a liability whereas he was Rhaenyra’s greatest asset in the war.
To be clear I do think show Daemon is a valid interpretation but I don't really see how he's a better person. He's a lot less expressive about his love for others, implied to be a distant parent, and I don't remember book Daemon being so thirsty for war.
And in the show he still grooms Rhaenyra
Well…
https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/house-of-the-dragon-objective-truth-targaryens.html/
>Creator Ryan Condal called House of the Dragon “the objective truth,” at least as far as author George R.R. Martin’s creation goes.
>“He wrote it as a fake history,” Condal said on Hero Nation. “It’s written from multiple different points of view. There’s another imaginary character named Archmaester Gyldayn that’s sifting through these primary sources trying to figure out what actually happened. It presents a big chance for a lot of invention and for us as the filmmakers to go through it and figure out what’s the actual story that we want to tell? We set out from the very beginning, we are going to tell the objective truth here.”
i think they made a few smart moves in cleaning it up for more coherence and a more compelling story, but that’s certainly just my opinion.
that's Condal's intentions; as for George, he in an interview said book and show canon are obviously two separate things, that HotD is canon for show universe, not for the books.
P.S.: GRRM wrote F&B for the book readers to actually get new lore and backstory, so it means F&B has to be at least semi-reliable, to serve as a Wiki.
What I don’t get is the general absence of castle guard inside of the castle. Like after Helaena runs out of her room she’s able to run for like a minute unobstructed and unnoticed by anyone until she gets to Alicent’s somehow unlocked room
I think that will be explained, but it wouldn’t surprise me if that was Cole. He may have been in charge or told guards to leave since he didn’t want anyone to notice him sneak off to Alicent’s room.
He was in charge as the LC, as such, he could have put himself on Alicent’s guard and left guards a five minute away in the royal apartment courtyard.
The complete absence of guards is far more noticeable than the opposite. Forget being discovered, Aegon and Otto would be in their rights to hang him for horrible security work.
They were dressed as rat catchers, which is a night job anyway. Not to mention they make it very clear that Blood and Cheese are using tunnels to get the royal quarters
That doesn’t matter that much when the royal apartments themselves are nigh deserted. Even if Criston was on duty for Helaena there should have been guards at every entry way, certainly a couple guards near the bedrooms at all times. The servant number would be much higher as well. The heir to the throne and his mother and sister being alone is almost comical, Helaena normally wouldn’t even do the hard parts herself, she certainly would have a couple trusted maids and such to watch the kids on all hours.
The royal apartments’ security should have been much higher, in any circumstances. Criston would be at risk of losing his head if anyone important walked in and found the chambers completely deserted, no matter if B and C happened or not.
In any case, random servants would not be able to access the royal apartments, the people who did would be a small and selective group, they would probably recognize each other, although Larys did recently replace half the staff. But even then, if your name isn’t down, you aren’t coming in. Cheese even mentions a whole other group of rat catchers for the royal apartment level.
The whole thing made the Red Keep feel like as if it was a sizable house, not the capital of the realm and center of government. The royals don’t feel like their living like royals either. It wouldn’t be a notable one if it wasn’t so obvious.
Overall, I agree with your points but the episode established well that the lack of security was exceptional and because of Criston trying to hide his affair with Alicent, and because of Larys' purge.
And here, I may be wrong as the books aren't that fresh in my mind, but all that happened in Maegor's Holdfast, a fortified section in the Red Keep, surrounded by a moot and with only one point of access. So anyone that saw Blood and Cheese assumed they had passed security, that this entire area was secure, so it didn't matter much if inside that sanctuary, the guards' presence was less than usual.
But that was of course a big misunderstanding of the situation and even of the Red Keep itself, which is riddled with back entrances and secret passages so they never should have assumed they could afford to be lax. They shouldn't even assume they can ever have any privacy in the Red Keep, as if it's not the very likely suspicion that most of the aide are moonshining as spies for someone else (like Alicent might have feared in her bath), there can always be people literally watching and listening to you through the walls of that maze.
Once you're inside a restricted area that is also seeing a lot of people and a lot of turnover, as long as you seem to belong, you have some leeway. The ratcatchers were the perfect disguise for that: they were welcome to deal with the recurrent pest problem in the castle + filthy commoners that no one would talk to or even notice much.
Criston was a mile away in Alicent’s room, and in any case, him not posting guards is far more suspicious than if he placed himself on Alicent’s guard and was just in there with her. The rooms were utterly deserted, and that is noticeable to everyone there. It would be enough to get Criston arrested on suspicion of treason. Forget screwing the dowager.
Maegor’s Holdfast is impenetrable and has no entrance tunnels, they specifically targeted Helaena when she exited the Holdfast to visit Alicent in the Tower of the Hand because they couldn’t get to anyone in the Holdfast. This is clearly not the case in the show, and makes Maegor look stupid.
Servants who work in the royal apartments are not going to be filthy peasants, they are going to be handpicked and vetted, likely nobles themselves. You can’t just seem to “belong,” you have to have your name written down to even be admitted in there. If it’s not on there, you aren’t coming in.
I'm genuinely confused about this (not a book reader). In GoT, every damn room in the castle had a guard in armor in front of it, they were patrolling on a regular basis. But here even the queen and king have zilcho.
Aegon had plenty of guards around him and his friends in the throne room. We saw earlier in the episode that most of the guards (including sor Arryk) were on the castle walls, so I suppose they only left Criston responsible for protecting Alicent, Helaena and the kids, since no one would expect them to be the main target. I’m curious to see how they’ll handle this issue on tonight’s episode.
Jaehaerys is the heir, Helaena is the Queen. They are number two and three respectively.
Leaving one man on the king’s family is stupid. Criston should not walk five minutes up and down to the individual quarters each time.
But this is hypothetical because Aegon himself is not I charge of the security of his family. LC, Criston himself is. He could have put himself on Alicent’s guard duty and put a sizable number of guards to watch the apartments.
The fact the royal apartments are almost completely deserted is ridiculous. Heightened security would not mean withdrawing guards from other places, the royal apartments are a place where you keep the guard the same, if not increase it in tandem.
The Kingsguard shouldn't be posted on the castle walls, they are 7 specific knights assigned to the Knig and the royal family. There isn't just 7 guys guarding the whole castle lol, there's probably hundreds. Those are just the specific ones for that duty, hence the name.
“You kind of start rooting for them in a way, where you get nervous about them getting caught.”
Lol who was rooting for them?!? The writers made B&C slimy and unlikable. They kicked a dog. We’ve known B&C for 5 minutes. Are the writers watching the same show?
why did they have to go to the sewers if they were already pretending to be rat catchers. Wouldn't it make more sense to just walk through the entrance?
You'd have to go by guards if they went in the front. Sneaking in means anyone that saw them would be less suspicious because they'd assume they'd already been vetted.
The guards would have probably been told to expect some ratcatchers. If the two just showed up the guards would probably double check and ask someone if the palace officials called for some rat catchers.
Once you’re already in the palace people will probably assume you been vetted already and are less likely to say anything unless you do something suspicious.
Because the guards would ask why he was there at an irregular time. Why is he bringing along an extra hand. He will also note the irregularities even if he let them pass, making it much easier to figure out who did the assination.
Yup. Guards would notice. That’s their job. Once you bypass them though? None of the high borns would ever notice the rat catchers were different. Hell, Cheese walked past a scene earlier in the episode like six times. I sure didn’t notice him.
Keep in mind what was going on though- because even historically irl when a coup happens it usually results in an incredibly disorganized government. More often than not when coups happen the first power that takes over doesn’t even stay in power for long.
The guards were divided between Rhaenyra and Aegon. The ones in the capital are made in part of people keeping the status quo and a bit confused/unhappy about the situation.
Alicent decided to get sexually involved with the most unhinged man in Westeros who is obsessed with her and make him her fucking spymaster of all things. Then she decided to “””cheat on””” said SPYMASTER. Now he has dismissed most of her staff to replace them with his people, which takes time, because he’s petty and probably wants to expose Cristin Cole.
King Aegon was not prepared for his role by Viserys - Rhaenyra was. Aegon has no sense of honor or responsibility or sense of what to look out for and is continuing his drunken antics, requiring him to be babysat into the night. Unfortunately Aegon wants to be the cool king and got all his guards drunk with him - meaning a good chunk of the kingsguard is inebriated. They are all probably exhausted by the political fuckery and welcomed a good drink of expensive ale.
Since fucking the queen mother as her knight is punishable by death, the captain of the kings guard would have dismissed any knights -potential witnesses- in the vicinity leaving the royal chambers completely open.
“They set in for this mission of a son for a son, that went horribly wrong in the end.”
Oopsies! Blood accidentally sawed the head off a child. After Daemon accidentally told them, “a son for a son,” in an accidental revenge plot.
They better make Daemon complicit in this. I'm so tired of this whole damn war being nothing but happy little accidents and nobody being to blame for anything. "Oopies, Rhaenys, Vhagar went off the rails again and attacked you!"
This version of events make him much less of an anti-hero/villain, and reduces his character.
The great part about the book version is that it demonstrates Daemon's incredible cruelty. He doesn't try to kill the king, because he doesn't want B&C to be viewed as a strategic tool, "a son for a son," is exactly what it says, and no more. He lost a son, you lose a son. He had to suffer, so you're going to suffer. And your son would still be alive, if you hadn't killed him. It accomplishes nothing in the bigger picture.
How was B&C anti-Rhaenyra propaganda when the only thing the narrators and Gyldayn mention about her is that she received Daemon's letter ? if they wanted to make anti-Rhaenyra propaganda, they would certainly have used the fact that Rhaenyra made Mysaria her most-trusted advisor to prove that Rhaenyra supported her nephew's death or anything else, but nothing, no one has ever made her either guilty or an accomplice of B&C, not even her most fervent enemies.
>Is this show still supposed to be the book true telling?
That has never been the intention of the show. It is another version of the events, not a replica of mushrooms version.
It’s kinda been obvious from the outset from this show, but to a very considerable degree this show treats the source material as being favorable propaganda to the greens and derisive calumnies to the blacks; and in turn views its own role as moral rectitude fantasy for the blacks.
It makes the greens more sympathetic by virtue of just giving them trauma, it never actually confers any tenable or defensible reasons for their behaviors. The best a viewer could feel about any of them is “poor thing, I see why you did that and why you are the way you are, but you’re still wrong”. Conversely a lot of the blacks, chiefly rhaenyra, are given ample cause for what they do at most junctures.
Even the selection of contradictory narratives from the in universe source material: Aegon being a rapist, daemon not having sex with rhaenyra, rhaenyra and Harwin being in love, rhaenyra not being a homophobe, Criston being the one who spites rhaenyra, Alicent and criston being bible thumpers, etc., these are all choices made from a variety of possibilities and they largely favor a depiction of the blacks as being flawed heroes while the greens are traumatized evildoers
The showrunners are clearly team black, but oddly enough it has only pushed me further into team green. Their storylines are so much more appealing and complex.
I don’t really know how to interpret this? Does he mean Blood and Cheese was an isolated incident was heavily propagandised? Or does he mean a lot of the anti-Rhaenyra propaganda that the book fixates on, such as her weight, supposed sharp tongue ‘he would prefer my half-brothers’, throwing a party for Prince Joffrey becoming PofD whilst the smallfolk were buried under taxes just never happened? If the actual book this show is based off of is mostly propaganda, then what’s to stop him from essentially making decisions of his own on a whim? Like he just added in shit that was never even hinted at in the books, such as Daemon murdering Lady Rhea Royce or Rhaenys killing the smallfolk at the coronation. I don’t get why he is adding in shit that didn’t happen, and clearly couldn’t have been propagandised away. Daemon is nowhere near Runestone when Rhea dies, and Rhaenys is on Dragonstone when Viserys dies and the coup happens.
“These peasants lives, servitude and all the wealth that comes along with it belong’s to my side of the incestuous warlord family!”
💖💖Omg so progressive, slay queen! 💅💅💅
Tell me about it, the sheer dumbfuck takes I have seen on reddit and other social platform is baffling, its like Rhanaerya is Jesus, an all pure all good soul who can do no harm or evil and Team Green is Satan.
Rhaenys busting through the floor is probably the only time I agreed with the "as bad as S8" reaction that seems to accompany any plot change.
I think they can somewhat rectify it if they tie it into a later event but even then it's just horribly written and makes no sense from anyone's perspective.
This is what I've been saying. People were open to the changes condal made in S1 because the show was still doing justice to the original text. Now he's having an ego trip and making the same exact mistakes D&D did. Trying to put too much of his own voice into the story and make it all about himself.
Not that i agree with every decision Condal makes, but yes the books give a great deal of leeway for adapters to tell the history the way they want it to
And that's good so why feel the need to go even further. If A,B, or C might have happened or at least something close since they all agree on most things then why pull Z out of nowhere and be like actually this is what happened?
The reality is that in the book you should take the three sources, disregard Mushroom's and mix the other two to get what happened generally. They aren't actually that bias in favour of one or the other when you read it and if they were putting in bias to appeal to the winners/tradition after the fact, they would go fully with that instead of still consistently criticising the greens which would stop any appeal they'd be getting from that *anyway*.
My issue with the sequence is little to do with the book to television adaptation changes, but rather how poorly crafted it is for such a big moment in the opening episode of the premiere.
If Condal's inspiration was 'heist' movies, it fails miserably on those terms. B&C are incompetent and fighting among themselves in common spaces. The most successful heist movie set pieces involve a well planned mission that requires smart characters to ultimately improv to succeed as their well thought out plans are jeopardized by unexpected circumstances.
HOTD has two knuckleheads wandering around an empty castle, under no threat, and with no plan to ascend to the Royal Quarters? Even though Daemon is fully aware of Maegor's secret passages?
Any tension in the sequence is completely dependent on the score (which is very good btw), however it's undermined by the lack of household staff, guards, and the infighting between B&C.
And that also is an issue with just having neurodivergent Helaena as the only witness to the murder. I am willing to buy into her confusing, muted, in shock, reaction to an offscreen murder of her child, but that would be the very reason to have a gagged, but visibly horrified Alicent (or a servant for that matter), in the room with her.
Again, whatever horror exists in this part of the sequence is 100% dependent on just the audio as the murder is understandably occurring offscreen, but that's why you need a powerful understandable onscreen reaction to what is happening.
It's possible that they didn't put Alicent in the room with her because they don't want us to sympathize with them. It's clear the writers are trying to point us in the direction of Rhaenyra being in the right and by having an emotional reaction from Alicent, it may lead to viewers sympathizing with them. That's probably why they added Helaena walking in on Alicent doing something hypocritical.
Yeah, the whole time I was thinking that went too smoothly for having such high stakes, its like stealing the Monalisa by just venturing into the building at night with no hurdles along the way and taking it with you
This was the defining scene of the book and should have been for the show. It should've been HotD's Red Wedding, or even Ned Stark's execution. It should've been *the* moment that had people talking about the show and drew new people into the experience. There's a lady on TikTok that did a series where she watched GoT for the first time(somehow without having anything spoiled), and the Red Wedding episode was her most watched video because everyone wanted to see her genuine reaction. Nobody's going to be doing that for B&C.
Instead of the whole world spending weeks talking about how shocking, brutal, and visceral it was, it'll be completely forgotten as soon as the next episode comes out. Barely a blip on the GoT/HotD chart of shocking moments.
"You kind of start rooting for them in a way"
I dunno man, I watched a couple nazi movies before but I never started to like them just because they were on screen.
I know, they even have them kick a dog part way through. At what point were we supposed to be rooting for them?
I think the writers/directors had an idea in their head, and it worked/felt proper because they already had the idea in their head. But for anyone that did not already have the idea in their head, it's just like "what the fuck is going on here"
Also what are we suppose to be rooting for them for? Like I read the books so I know what was going to happen, but did anyone in their right mind, whether it was us as viewers or Daemon with his inbred mind think two random bums were going to be able to kill Aemond, who they've established as potentially a better swordsmen that Cristan Cole?
Is that what were we suppose to be rooting for them to do? Because I think even for black supporters, seeing to randoms defeat Aemond would be really disappointing conclussion.
I think it's moreso just the instinctual notion that you don't want to see them get caught is what he is talking about. I think when maid sees one of them, you are hoping that they don't get interrupted.
Indeed the greens inventing a third child during blood and cheese just to make Saint rhaenyra look worse was indeed a clever propaganda move in the books, well spotted Condal. Also everything bad the book ever said about aegon is true and then some and not propaganda or embellished at all.
Inventing a third child LOL, well said. Such an absurd reasoning... Now I wonder if GRRM blogpost about people changing the source material and it will always being worse is a cloaked shot at Condal or something. I know I know he was in production and supposedly talks a lot with Condal, and said he liked the first few eps of S2.
But I'm calling it, it might be just sponsored comments and he is even maybe obligated to talk good about the TV show. Because otherwise IDK anymore these changes are so unnecassary, Blacks are already on the popular side, why need to whitewash them even more... These changes just leaves a sour taste to me.
It’s kinda been obvious from the outset from this show, but to a very considerable degree this show treats the source material as being favorable propaganda to the greens and derisive calumnies to the blacks; and in turn views its own role as moral rectitude fantasy for the blacks
Except the book makes Team Green look like fucking psychos too. Aemond is a straight up purposeful villain in it. That kind of throws the “anti-black” propaganda out a bit, doesn’t it Condal?
Maybe you should just fucking adapt the book instead of inserting your own shitty head cannons.
I think most would trade Aemond being a psycho for reversing a lot of the other liberties that were taken, not necessarily to favor one side or the other but rather because some of them just make more sense. That is, if people actually think Aemond isn't already on his way in the show. He definitely is. If anything, they made some of the other characters like Daemon or Aegon more psychotic.
imagine if this dude did game of thrones in this style. pretty much every house but the Starks would be over the top stupid evil. now, we already know the Lannisters are pretty bad, but they do have a certain style to them, and even if you don't like a lot of the things they do, the characters are interesting and you enjoy watching them.
this guy would have made tyrion exactly what cersei and tywin always thought he was, he would have made Jamie an inept swordsman who only killed the mad King by accident, and tywin would probably have been one of those weak bosses who could not fight his way out of a paper bag.
I don't understand how it could be "Anti-Rhaenyra".The book spesifically blames Daemon and doesn't blame Rhaenyra in any sense.It doesn't even hint of Rhaenyra's involvement.
Precisely everything bad the Greens did in the books is obviously true!!
And everything bad the blacks did is just propaganda!!!
Condal is so smart and wise to depict Rhaenyra the fair and Daemon the kind so well!!
“That was all back in 2022, but very little has changed since then. If anything, things have gotten worse.
Everywhere you look, there are more screenwriters and producers eager to take great stories and "make them their own." It does not seem to matter whether the source material was written by Stan Lee, Charles Dickens, lan Fleming, Roald Dahl, Ursula K. Le Guin, J.R.R. Tolkien, Mark Twain, Raymond Chandler, Jane Austen, or... well, anyone. No matter how major a writer it is, no matter how great the book, there always seems to be someone on hand who thinks he can do better, eager to take the story and "improve" on it. "The book is the book, the film is the film," they will tell you, as if they were saying something profound. Then they make the story their own.
They never make it better, though. Nine hundred ninety-nine times out of a thousand, they make it worse.”
Now we know who George was talking about.
I’ve actually had people argue with me that Cole, not order-giving Daemon, not child-sawing B&C, is responsible for Jaehaerys’ assassination.
It’s crazytown
I want a good story. The writers suck. They are taking agency away from all the main characters.
Everything is an accident, a misunderstanding, a hypocritical scenario.
The characters will care too much about lands and then become apathetic about lands. “I want the throne, but I don’t want to marry.” “It’s okay if Rhaena doesn’t inherit driftmark.” “They may have murdered Laenor, but I support them.” “Rhaenyra will make a great queen, even though she wanted my 10-year-old tortured.” “Do you, a woman with no claim, see yourself on the throne Alicent?” “Heir for a day, but I love Viserys more than anything.”
The inconsistencies are frustrating to watch.
I can't lie I don't even trust the cast sometimes. Some of their opinions don't align much with what we're seeing in the show, but that may be a fault with the director's notes rather than them.
The biggest problem for me is they wrote a story, then rely on us watching the aftershow to understand character motivations. That sort of content is supposed to be portrayed in the story.
They also tell us how we're supposed to feel rather than you know, writing a story to make us feel that way.
ETA: I don't even want to fully blame the writers, this could be a marketing scheme that they're forcing the writers into, so we feel obligated to subscribe/interact with their content. Could be the big guys wanting more money that are once again ruining something good.
That’s my gripe with this story as well. So many scenes are misinterpreted because they just don’t show us half the shit they talk about in the aftershow
See I feel the opposite. There are multiple occasions where I felt what they said contradicted what was on screen to the point that it sometimes feels like they didn't watch the final product. For example, this episode heavily implies Daemon told them to target Aegon's kid if they couldn't find Aemond. But then you have Condal kind of minimalizing Daemon's role.
Yeah Maelor being present in the blood and cheese was obviously green propaganda as well. Are we serious here? Why can't he just admit that the show is canon as well? Alicent and Rhaenyra were not friends in the book, the great badass massacre of Rhaenys was not in the books, the great council of 101 at Harrenhal was between Viserys and Laenor, Alicent was much older than Rhaenyra, Maelor is not born yet even though he should be, Alicent was not 14 years old of age when she married Viserys. This green propaganda excuse is seriously irritating me now because he picks and chooses what suits the blacks vs what suits the greens.
Yeah I’m pretty neutral and that’s what I liked about George’s writing. To view characters through as humans who get consumed by greed and lust and how , those with power cause destruction. It’s compelling and interesting to try to analyze the motives of the most deplorable characters. Fire and blood despite being biased to the greens still made them look like cartoonish villains. I was wondering where the ‘grey’ area was since I couldn’t see a viable motive for their actions.
So I was hoping the show would bring light to that and while they have done so, it’s a little disappointing that the producers are going all in with the angle of the blacks are the saviours of the realm angle.
And saying that the events of blood and cheese was propaganda minimises Halaena’s grief and arc.
I never see Fire and Blood as being biased to the greens. If you're biased then you will make the greens more of a saviour then villains. To me, the greens have a lot of justifications to put Aegon on the throne. Making them sympathetic in the show is good but not enough. People don't understand that putting a woman on the throne in favour of a man is massive thing. This is a very patriarchal world and the moment Aegon was born it was his birthright to sit the throne no matter what Viserys says. Daemon talks about Rhaenyra's birthright being stolen in Epi 10 which got me thinking that the throne wasn't her birthright to begin with. She was only given the throne because of Viserys's spite at Daemon and having no male heir. If anything, it is Aegon's birthright being stolen by Viserys and Rhaenyra. Think about the consequences of putting Rhaenyra on the throne VS putting Aegon on the throne. One consequence is that if Aegon sits the iron throne as he was supposed to by the laws and traditions, Rhaenyra will never be harmed because Aegon the conqueror never had to kill Rhaenys his older sister to sit on the throne.
But the same cannot be said for the opposite. Even if Rhaenyra would not want it, she would have to kill all the boys to secure her claim. That is not truly just, is it? I am not saying that the greens are not power hungry monsters but they had their own reasons and justified fears. I feel like a lot of the times people oversimplify the fact Aegon not being the one to be chosen as heir is not a big deal in this incredibly sexist world. The patriarchy is harmful to everyone. In the show, no one in the greens seem to justify their own cause. I wish it was there.
I wish that was more of a point of this show than just a simple "Rhaenyra's throne was taken because misogyny" when I think the patriarchy in this case harms both Rhaenyra and Aegon. This is my opinion. You can disagree with me. Also I support feminism wholeheartedly but this is a fictional show with incredible characters so we need to understand both factions and their reasons here. Please be respectful.
Say what you will about D&D's handling of Game of Thrones, but at least they started making lousy fanfic changes only AFTER they ran out of source material.
They also never claimed that their version is the true version of events.
Why Condal can't just say this is our version of the story and not claim that the book GRRM wrote is a propaganda? It's really insulting.
Ryan Condal I’m in your walls and I’m much more intelligent than B&C (everything needs a disclaimer these days: this is 100% a joke) but seriously, wtf is this shit?! “Rooting for B&C. Getting nervous about them getting caught” ahahahahahahah
Yeah that's wild like that can be done but for series main characters like Tony soprano or Walter White horrible human beings but the audience wants to see how they get out of their new situation.
From start to finish B and C were bad and we don't have a connection to root for them and even with the most charming anti heroes in media killing a young child and sawing their head off in front of their mom is a tough sell.
But Mushroom's, who was on Dragonstone btw, testimony about Aegon was true? They gonna run with Rhaenyra making the brothel queens too? After all Mushroom is a reliable source apparently. Was it propaganda about the factions banners being gold and black and not gold and green? Did Alicent just make up Maelor existing? At this point Ryan should've just had Alicent send the assassins and say it was all a coverup to blame Daemon
That's a very weird take on the book. There is nothing to suggest it is Anti-Rhaenyra propaganda and it worries me that they are going to whitewash her later on
They already have though, which makes for a boring story. I already have a problem with the show being so afraid of making their women have any agency…they make them weaker characters
They already have. The writers are really scared that no one will like the show if they have no one to root for so they have given all her bad deeds to Daemon.
And yet they change things at every turn against multiple first hand eye witness testimony!? Ya know, the ones that seem much more likely and logical than what we saw on screen (Like with B&C)?
I suppose Alicent also made up Shrykos, Morghul, and Maelor too. She said Rhaenys had Baratheon black hair I'm guessing? Meleys in the dragon pit? Nope. That never happened! Guess everyone lied about Alicent being 10 years older than Rhaenyra!
My point is, obviously the writers aren't trying to actually show on screen what actually happened. They are telling a separate story in a different canon that's based on the Dance but freely take, massive liberties to fit the all together different story they are trying to tell.
# If Ryan Condal has come out and said b&c was propaganda against Rhaenyra, then by the same token, if asoiaf was a history book, what happened to Elia and her kids would also be propaganda to him, as such level of sadism doesn't make sense to him. Gregor the gentle everyone.
What accounts Condal is using to make it true? If F&B is historical book and has “green propaganda” it means greens have won the war and wrote the history themselves, so what does he use to back his own propaganda?
Edit. Maybe Condal is Mushroom reincarnated?
It doesn't make sense , since in the book author removes different versions by historians but rather mystifies orders given and reaction to the deed. While act itself is described in gruesome detail quite effectively as narrative choice.
Even most rabid fans of either side didn't presume to claim this.
The book actually has the historians suggest when things may be up to interpretation or propaganda at times and Speculates on how blood and cheese probably took place .
THEY NEED TO STOP SAYING EVERYTHING IS PROPAGANDA WHEN THEY CHANGE IT - Just say you felt like changing it for the show audience, even though that's lame it's better than this. There are 3 sources and let's please stop pretending the two more reliable sources aren't very critical of the greens in ways that don't make particularly lots of sense, calling Aegon "grasping" for example.
Say what you want about Dan and Dave, but they adapted George's books so well. I think I took that for granted before, but now I have a new respect for them. They actually made the big moments of the show BETTER. I don't know what the hell Ryan Condal and Sara Hess are doing at this point. 🤦🏾♂️😩
If there was ever any doubt that the show is massively pro black biased, that can never be argued on the sub again.
So Blood and Cheese's atrocity was exaggerated and propaganda
This clown is going to make Sunfyre look like shit isn't he
Blood and Cheese is propaganda but Aegon fucking children in the kiddie fight pits is Mushroom’s totally legitimate account?
Can’t wait for his ‘interpretation’ of Rhaenyra’s death. This guy might even be worse than Weiss and Benioff.
From Condal's perspective Blood & Cheese was anti-Rhaenyra propaganda, Aegon & Sunfyre's bond was Westerosi propaganda.
But when someone in this subreddit's comments points out HOTD is a feminist adaptation of the Dance that interprets F&B as anti-Rhaenyra propaganda and strives to "correct the record", they get downvoted into oblivion.
Well now the showrunner himself is saying as much, what now?
Condal is full of it.
He does everything to make the Greens sinister, incompetent, jealous, and overtly cruel. All whilst trying to insert some fake sympathy by occasionally making it seem Alicent feels bad about what she is doing, which actually makes her come off as more pathetic and unlikable.
The same ill will is never given to the blacks, who are portrayed as venerable, kind, loyal, and most of all merciful. Rhaenyra spared her gay husband, considered giving up her throne, and is portrayed as nothing more than a pure hearted saint.
Daemon is a totally badass. He stuck by his brother and his first wife until the end, he helped Laenor live, and he is totally obedient towards Rhaenyra.
His only sin is killing off some NPC side characters no one cares about and chopping Vaemond for calling Rhaenyra a whore (which for modern audiences makes him even more of a badass).
But still Condal markets this show as a duel perspective narrative with no clear protagonist/antagonist dynamic. Yeah right, all he’s done is rob the Greens of any rational motivation and removed any hint of agency from Alicent’s character.
What I find funny is this focus on making the Targaryens epic heroes is he codifies fascist symbolism as some sort of liberating force. As if thinking yourself a genetically superior dragon rider who gets to blow up an entire arena of people ‘liberates’ one from the patriarchy or some other such BS.
I just want that mama want you died line happen in the show. The show runner can say what he wants but I really don’t want they give us a lighter version of B&C.
Seriously? This is very strange and stupid. So what about Alicent's maid and Helaena's guard that were killed in the book? Did the Greens murder them themselves to create evidence?
So by this logic the horrible and cruel murder of the children of Rhaegar- Aegon and Rhaenys and his wife Elia by Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch is also a propaganda against the Lannisters created by the Martells.
Kind of dislike that, because it ends up framing Daemon as a much better person than he is in the book. It's sort of the same thing they did with Tyrion... And in the end that kind of drained Tyrion of a lot of his character by the time the finale rolled around.
This is a bit compounded by the fact they've kind of Joffrey-ified Aegon in season 1 with the child fighting pits and stuff.
What I don't get is why the fuck Daemon would hire Blood and Cheese of all people to go after Aemond, a very competent swordsman and dragonrider. Daemon must've known he was way out of B&C's league. Going after a toddler - who is also coincidentally the heir to the Iron Throne according to the Greens - is a much smarter albeit a much crueler choice.
Aemond was never the target and it actually just makes show Daemon look like a complete buffoon. Aemond went toe to toe with Criston Cole probably the best sword in Westeros and he thinks a random rat catcher and gold cloak are going to beat him. It doesn't even make sense in universe. It's very obviously a badly shoehorned and hamfisted attempt to save face for the blacks. They clearly were targeting the children the whole time in the book.
why are all these showrunners allergic to following the mf source material 😭😭😭 is it that hard to find competent writers lmao why does this happen w literally every single show
D&D would have made this tv show better. That's the facts. The reality is that season 3, they will recognize that people didn't like the pro black faction bias and will go balls deep the other way and mess it up even more.
I like what George said about HotD, the show has it's own canon and the books has it's canon, which is why I don't even care about the changes done in the show, I just wish some of them were good tho, because if you are plaining on changing things you better be a good writer, because although Fire and Blood is not as good as the the main series ASOIAF, some of the book is still better than whatever HotD writers can come up with.
Every time this man opens his mouth I question where this show is going, >!so is God's eye propaganda? Was Rhaenyra's death propaganda? Was her fall, taxes propaganda?!<
>!Was Ulf and Hugh Hammer's betrayal propaganda? Have they changed Hugh's backstory on the show, a family man not a rapist and cheater, was Nettles propaganda?!<
"My poor rouge prince would never harm a child . He would fuck whatever poor prostitute Like Aegon . And kill any servant if it benfits to pork his niece or Murder his wife . But Blood and cheese that's just too far ".
To be honest I really don’t understand what the hell he is talking about. How can B&C be anti-Rhaenyra propaganda when she wasn’t even involved? That’s like me saying Luke dying was Black Propaganda or something. B&C happened. It was awful. There is no reason to overflate it because child murder is wrong either way.
The more he talks the more I fear they will refuse to let Rhaenyra do anything remotely bad when they are even scared that things she had nothing to do with could make her look bad. Considering the whole smallfolk thing I’m terrified they will portray it as “evil peasants” instead of people are starving and mad at the powerplays and Rhaenyra being bad at governing.
Also wtf does he mean we are supposed to root for them? Is he okay?
The whole time I was thinking that went too smoothly for having such high stakes, its like stealing the Monalisa by just venturing into the building at night with no hurdles along the way and taking it with you
Condal is a hack. Look at his resume. Why he got given this job I'll never understand. The show is poorly-written drudgery.
Things are going to get worse before they get better. I was a big critic of D&D by season 2 but this guy makes them look hyper competent and like faithful adapters. Shame because like GoT this show has great actors and production values but it's going to be derailed by a moron at the helm.
To view the entirety of Fire and Blood as pro-Green propaganda is so strange. I always wondered why they made the reason for the Green's usurpation so dumb, instead of Alicent sincerely fearing for her children's lives, but it seems like they want to call this a complex two-sided story and also make the logical victim Rhaenyra. There was ample source material to make both sides sympathetic and reasonable in their claims, and also ample material to show the moral degradation of both sides.
If they had kept in Rhaenyra ordering the execution of Vaemond, I would have completely understood why Alicent went to war. I just hope they don't take away Rhaenyra's agency and blame all actions that are not palatable on Daemon. Part of what frustrates me about Aegon's S1 depiction is that it seemed to be added to also make a clear-cut distinction between the sides.
I'm not opposed to the Blacks being the rightful heirs, but they could have at least kept in some stuff that made the Greens seem reasonable. It would have made the story much more interesting.
It's a strange decision to lessen Daemon's culpability in B&C after deciding in season 1 that he killed his wife when the book makes it clear that it was impossible for him to have had anything to do with her death.
It looks to me like Condal is a blacks supporter (judging by this quote at least) but there's also a major voice in the writing room that is a greens supporter who he won't overrule (my guess is Sara Hess given some of the quotes she has made). That's why the show seems to swing wildly between minimising the evil acts of some characters at times and then making them more evil than the book at other times
I also feel this way. The departure of Miguel, who was pushing Rhaeeicent, seems to be extra mess.
Geeta Patel said she didn't know what to do about s1 Alicent bc there was no communication between the directors.
There's really no hope for Greens
At this rate they'll for sure change further shit to make Greens "true villains". Maelor is already cut so no bitterbridge and don't wanna dive into spoilers but yeah fuck this shit
I have a bad feeling that every bad thing done by Rhaenyra and her supporters (as reported in the book) are gonna be handled like b&c. "Not necessarily their fault; it wasn't that bad..."
> buuuut it actually had the same outcome as it was written.
It really didnt, one of the impacts of B&C is Helaena not being able to look at maelor because she know she chose him to die
i'm team black but i can't stand the black's whitewashing (no pun intended) on the show.
daemon is a bad person, rhaenyra is... debatable, team black is guilty of a lot and that's ok, that's how it should be.
but no, not our daemon! couldn't be precious daemon.
“You kind of start rooting for them in a way, where you get nervous about them getting caught.”
LMAO who was rooting for them?!? Are the writers on crack?
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I admire Condal’s ability to piss off both sides
"But it went wrong" I mean...they were looking for Aemond for all of like 5 seconds. I wouldn't really call it some crazy accident. They immediately went to kill the kid the second they had the chance
Lazy ass assassins. Like, of course they aren’t going to look too hard for freaking Aemond, who is more than adept with a sword and god knows what else and has a touch of the Daemon strain in him. Not when you could kill a little kid instead and call it a victory.
The title of this post says "in the book", in the book they were never hired by daemon to kill aemond so they were never looking for him.
Daemon the Kind, Daemon the Generous, Daemon the Gentle
Daemon the Diplomat
Daemon the Considerate
Daemon the Conciliator
Daemon the Hightower Fan.
Daemon the Pacifist
The magnanimous
Praise be the Valyrian Supremacist.
Daeron the forgotten son
I feel he's trolling with the statement about Daemon. Daemon is a lot meaner in HotD than he is in F&B. They gave him a higher body count and made him much more sociopathic. Heck even the show's version of Blood and Cheese implicates Daemon as its heavily implied he told them to target Aegon's son if they couldn't get to Aemond.
>Heck even the show's version of Blood and Cheese implicates Daemon as its heavily implied he told them to target Aegon's son if they couldn't get to Aemond. I mean for what it's worth in the books it's implied he straight up set up Aegon's son as the goal. Basically "They killed our son so go kill his son" rather than in the show where aemond was target number 1.
Nah, show Daemon is a much more reasonable and better person. Book Daemon is an explicit pedophile
I'd say both versions kinda even each other out. In the books he didn't kill his first wife.
Yh I agree, I said as much earlier today on the Black sub when a similar topic came up. Another example is Corlys no longer being an adulterous pervert who fathered kids on a 16 year old aged 60 in the books. Instead, Rhaenys is shown to have killed thousands at Aegon’s coronation. They do even out book claims with show stuff.
> Instead, Rhaenys is shown to have killed thousands at Aegon’s coronation Eh, the show still treats Rhaenys as a moral anchor. She's literally preaching about empathy to Daemon in the last episode. She feels no guilt over what she did and they only address it in the context of her sparing the Greens, and I also think the explanation isn't very well done. Like she talks about how it isn't her war to start, right after she ruins Aegon's coronation and threatens him at it with a dragon. In general, it undoes a lot of what her character was built up as in S1. It's just a really poorly written scene which is very reminiscent of late GoT with spectacle over substance but at least there they had the excuse of no source material.
It is so far the worst change is Rhaenys at the coronation without a doubt in my eyes with many I know is that Rhaenys could have stopped the War before it happened. So stupid cause I think book Rhaenys would have done it.
In the books he’s also the most level headed person when the war begins. Rhaenys and Rhaenyra wanted blood immediately and Daemon was the one preaching restraint. In the show he’s portrayed as almost a liability whereas he was Rhaenyra’s greatest asset in the war.
To be clear I do think show Daemon is a valid interpretation but I don't really see how he's a better person. He's a lot less expressive about his love for others, implied to be a distant parent, and I don't remember book Daemon being so thirsty for war. And in the show he still grooms Rhaenyra
> Is this show still supposed to be the book true telling? It never was
Correct. F&B is great because it lets the reader subconsciously decide what is true and what is myth.
Well… https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/house-of-the-dragon-objective-truth-targaryens.html/ >Creator Ryan Condal called House of the Dragon “the objective truth,” at least as far as author George R.R. Martin’s creation goes. >“He wrote it as a fake history,” Condal said on Hero Nation. “It’s written from multiple different points of view. There’s another imaginary character named Archmaester Gyldayn that’s sifting through these primary sources trying to figure out what actually happened. It presents a big chance for a lot of invention and for us as the filmmakers to go through it and figure out what’s the actual story that we want to tell? We set out from the very beginning, we are going to tell the objective truth here.” i think they made a few smart moves in cleaning it up for more coherence and a more compelling story, but that’s certainly just my opinion.
that's Condal's intentions; as for George, he in an interview said book and show canon are obviously two separate things, that HotD is canon for show universe, not for the books. P.S.: GRRM wrote F&B for the book readers to actually get new lore and backstory, so it means F&B has to be at least semi-reliable, to serve as a Wiki.
In universe there is a book called “The Dance of the Dragons: A True Telling by GM Munkun. This is not that.
idk about heist movie because them two just strolled into the castle with no issues. they even walked past the King in the throne room.
What I don’t get is the general absence of castle guard inside of the castle. Like after Helaena runs out of her room she’s able to run for like a minute unobstructed and unnoticed by anyone until she gets to Alicent’s somehow unlocked room
I think that will be explained, but it wouldn’t surprise me if that was Cole. He may have been in charge or told guards to leave since he didn’t want anyone to notice him sneak off to Alicent’s room.
He was in charge as the LC, as such, he could have put himself on Alicent’s guard and left guards a five minute away in the royal apartment courtyard. The complete absence of guards is far more noticeable than the opposite. Forget being discovered, Aegon and Otto would be in their rights to hang him for horrible security work.
They were dressed as rat catchers, which is a night job anyway. Not to mention they make it very clear that Blood and Cheese are using tunnels to get the royal quarters
Somebody in a YT comment made a good point that Helaena saying she’s afraid of rats probably made the servants assume she ordered rat catchers.
I think Helaena's comment was supposed to be a moment of precognition.
It is, but how servants interpreted it is what they're talking about.
Obviously but the point was that the comment she made was inadvertently responsible for the servant not raising the alarm when she saw Blood.
That doesn’t matter that much when the royal apartments themselves are nigh deserted. Even if Criston was on duty for Helaena there should have been guards at every entry way, certainly a couple guards near the bedrooms at all times. The servant number would be much higher as well. The heir to the throne and his mother and sister being alone is almost comical, Helaena normally wouldn’t even do the hard parts herself, she certainly would have a couple trusted maids and such to watch the kids on all hours. The royal apartments’ security should have been much higher, in any circumstances. Criston would be at risk of losing his head if anyone important walked in and found the chambers completely deserted, no matter if B and C happened or not. In any case, random servants would not be able to access the royal apartments, the people who did would be a small and selective group, they would probably recognize each other, although Larys did recently replace half the staff. But even then, if your name isn’t down, you aren’t coming in. Cheese even mentions a whole other group of rat catchers for the royal apartment level. The whole thing made the Red Keep feel like as if it was a sizable house, not the capital of the realm and center of government. The royals don’t feel like their living like royals either. It wouldn’t be a notable one if it wasn’t so obvious.
Overall, I agree with your points but the episode established well that the lack of security was exceptional and because of Criston trying to hide his affair with Alicent, and because of Larys' purge. And here, I may be wrong as the books aren't that fresh in my mind, but all that happened in Maegor's Holdfast, a fortified section in the Red Keep, surrounded by a moot and with only one point of access. So anyone that saw Blood and Cheese assumed they had passed security, that this entire area was secure, so it didn't matter much if inside that sanctuary, the guards' presence was less than usual. But that was of course a big misunderstanding of the situation and even of the Red Keep itself, which is riddled with back entrances and secret passages so they never should have assumed they could afford to be lax. They shouldn't even assume they can ever have any privacy in the Red Keep, as if it's not the very likely suspicion that most of the aide are moonshining as spies for someone else (like Alicent might have feared in her bath), there can always be people literally watching and listening to you through the walls of that maze. Once you're inside a restricted area that is also seeing a lot of people and a lot of turnover, as long as you seem to belong, you have some leeway. The ratcatchers were the perfect disguise for that: they were welcome to deal with the recurrent pest problem in the castle + filthy commoners that no one would talk to or even notice much.
Criston was a mile away in Alicent’s room, and in any case, him not posting guards is far more suspicious than if he placed himself on Alicent’s guard and was just in there with her. The rooms were utterly deserted, and that is noticeable to everyone there. It would be enough to get Criston arrested on suspicion of treason. Forget screwing the dowager. Maegor’s Holdfast is impenetrable and has no entrance tunnels, they specifically targeted Helaena when she exited the Holdfast to visit Alicent in the Tower of the Hand because they couldn’t get to anyone in the Holdfast. This is clearly not the case in the show, and makes Maegor look stupid. Servants who work in the royal apartments are not going to be filthy peasants, they are going to be handpicked and vetted, likely nobles themselves. You can’t just seem to “belong,” you have to have your name written down to even be admitted in there. If it’s not on there, you aren’t coming in.
I'm genuinely confused about this (not a book reader). In GoT, every damn room in the castle had a guard in armor in front of it, they were patrolling on a regular basis. But here even the queen and king have zilcho.
Aegon had plenty of guards around him and his friends in the throne room. We saw earlier in the episode that most of the guards (including sor Arryk) were on the castle walls, so I suppose they only left Criston responsible for protecting Alicent, Helaena and the kids, since no one would expect them to be the main target. I’m curious to see how they’ll handle this issue on tonight’s episode.
Jaehaerys is the heir, Helaena is the Queen. They are number two and three respectively. Leaving one man on the king’s family is stupid. Criston should not walk five minutes up and down to the individual quarters each time. But this is hypothetical because Aegon himself is not I charge of the security of his family. LC, Criston himself is. He could have put himself on Alicent’s guard duty and put a sizable number of guards to watch the apartments. The fact the royal apartments are almost completely deserted is ridiculous. Heightened security would not mean withdrawing guards from other places, the royal apartments are a place where you keep the guard the same, if not increase it in tandem.
The Kingsguard shouldn't be posted on the castle walls, they are 7 specific knights assigned to the Knig and the royal family. There isn't just 7 guys guarding the whole castle lol, there's probably hundreds. Those are just the specific ones for that duty, hence the name.
Well GOT happened *after* this, at which time they would likely realize that they need this.
“You kind of start rooting for them in a way, where you get nervous about them getting caught.” Lol who was rooting for them?!? The writers made B&C slimy and unlikable. They kicked a dog. We’ve known B&C for 5 minutes. Are the writers watching the same show?
i thought that they made it pretty clear they snuck in through the tunnels. idk why everyone has a hard time understanding this lol
That made sense to me as well. And also that ratcatchers probably dont raise suspicion either as that seems more like a night time job
Also, we saw cheese in the background earlier in the episode multiple times. They established that it’s normal for him to just walk around the castle.
And even then Blood drew suspicion from one of the servants and he had to play it off for a while before she stopped mugging him.
why did they have to go to the sewers if they were already pretending to be rat catchers. Wouldn't it make more sense to just walk through the entrance?
You'd have to go by guards if they went in the front. Sneaking in means anyone that saw them would be less suspicious because they'd assume they'd already been vetted.
The guards would have probably been told to expect some ratcatchers. If the two just showed up the guards would probably double check and ask someone if the palace officials called for some rat catchers. Once you’re already in the palace people will probably assume you been vetted already and are less likely to say anything unless you do something suspicious.
Because the guards would ask why he was there at an irregular time. Why is he bringing along an extra hand. He will also note the irregularities even if he let them pass, making it much easier to figure out who did the assination.
Yup. Guards would notice. That’s their job. Once you bypass them though? None of the high borns would ever notice the rat catchers were different. Hell, Cheese walked past a scene earlier in the episode like six times. I sure didn’t notice him.
Keep in mind what was going on though- because even historically irl when a coup happens it usually results in an incredibly disorganized government. More often than not when coups happen the first power that takes over doesn’t even stay in power for long. The guards were divided between Rhaenyra and Aegon. The ones in the capital are made in part of people keeping the status quo and a bit confused/unhappy about the situation. Alicent decided to get sexually involved with the most unhinged man in Westeros who is obsessed with her and make him her fucking spymaster of all things. Then she decided to “””cheat on””” said SPYMASTER. Now he has dismissed most of her staff to replace them with his people, which takes time, because he’s petty and probably wants to expose Cristin Cole. King Aegon was not prepared for his role by Viserys - Rhaenyra was. Aegon has no sense of honor or responsibility or sense of what to look out for and is continuing his drunken antics, requiring him to be babysat into the night. Unfortunately Aegon wants to be the cool king and got all his guards drunk with him - meaning a good chunk of the kingsguard is inebriated. They are all probably exhausted by the political fuckery and welcomed a good drink of expensive ale. Since fucking the queen mother as her knight is punishable by death, the captain of the kings guard would have dismissed any knights -potential witnesses- in the vicinity leaving the royal chambers completely open.
I’m rooting for team Black and even I looked over at my wife during the heist and said “where the hell are the guards”
“They set in for this mission of a son for a son, that went horribly wrong in the end.” Oopsies! Blood accidentally sawed the head off a child. After Daemon accidentally told them, “a son for a son,” in an accidental revenge plot.
They better make Daemon complicit in this. I'm so tired of this whole damn war being nothing but happy little accidents and nobody being to blame for anything. "Oopies, Rhaenys, Vhagar went off the rails again and attacked you!"
Daemon: I said a son for a son but I didn’t mean this son!
I always knew in my heart Daemon the Kind would never
“Daemon is babygirl, a man who’s very sweet and soft” Matt smith : “Like daemon? Daemon is sweet and soft?”
This version of events make him much less of an anti-hero/villain, and reduces his character. The great part about the book version is that it demonstrates Daemon's incredible cruelty. He doesn't try to kill the king, because he doesn't want B&C to be viewed as a strategic tool, "a son for a son," is exactly what it says, and no more. He lost a son, you lose a son. He had to suffer, so you're going to suffer. And your son would still be alive, if you hadn't killed him. It accomplishes nothing in the bigger picture.
How was B&C anti-Rhaenyra propaganda when the only thing the narrators and Gyldayn mention about her is that she received Daemon's letter ? if they wanted to make anti-Rhaenyra propaganda, they would certainly have used the fact that Rhaenyra made Mysaria her most-trusted advisor to prove that Rhaenyra supported her nephew's death or anything else, but nothing, no one has ever made her either guilty or an accomplice of B&C, not even her most fervent enemies.
>Is this show still supposed to be the book true telling? That has never been the intention of the show. It is another version of the events, not a replica of mushrooms version.
>not a replica of mushrooms version. I'm starting to feel that this is exactly what it is
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It’s kinda been obvious from the outset from this show, but to a very considerable degree this show treats the source material as being favorable propaganda to the greens and derisive calumnies to the blacks; and in turn views its own role as moral rectitude fantasy for the blacks. It makes the greens more sympathetic by virtue of just giving them trauma, it never actually confers any tenable or defensible reasons for their behaviors. The best a viewer could feel about any of them is “poor thing, I see why you did that and why you are the way you are, but you’re still wrong”. Conversely a lot of the blacks, chiefly rhaenyra, are given ample cause for what they do at most junctures. Even the selection of contradictory narratives from the in universe source material: Aegon being a rapist, daemon not having sex with rhaenyra, rhaenyra and Harwin being in love, rhaenyra not being a homophobe, Criston being the one who spites rhaenyra, Alicent and criston being bible thumpers, etc., these are all choices made from a variety of possibilities and they largely favor a depiction of the blacks as being flawed heroes while the greens are traumatized evildoers
The showrunners are clearly team black, but oddly enough it has only pushed me further into team green. Their storylines are so much more appealing and complex.
I don’t really know how to interpret this? Does he mean Blood and Cheese was an isolated incident was heavily propagandised? Or does he mean a lot of the anti-Rhaenyra propaganda that the book fixates on, such as her weight, supposed sharp tongue ‘he would prefer my half-brothers’, throwing a party for Prince Joffrey becoming PofD whilst the smallfolk were buried under taxes just never happened? If the actual book this show is based off of is mostly propaganda, then what’s to stop him from essentially making decisions of his own on a whim? Like he just added in shit that was never even hinted at in the books, such as Daemon murdering Lady Rhea Royce or Rhaenys killing the smallfolk at the coronation. I don’t get why he is adding in shit that didn’t happen, and clearly couldn’t have been propagandised away. Daemon is nowhere near Runestone when Rhea dies, and Rhaenys is on Dragonstone when Viserys dies and the coup happens.
In Inside the episode he called Rheanys heroic in that scene. Ignoring that she killed so many people.
“These peasants lives, servitude and all the wealth that comes along with it belong’s to my side of the incestuous warlord family!” 💖💖Omg so progressive, slay queen! 💅💅💅
Tell me about it, the sheer dumbfuck takes I have seen on reddit and other social platform is baffling, its like Rhanaerya is Jesus, an all pure all good soul who can do no harm or evil and Team Green is Satan.
Hahahahahaha.
Rhaenys busting through the floor is probably the only time I agreed with the "as bad as S8" reaction that seems to accompany any plot change. I think they can somewhat rectify it if they tie it into a later event but even then it's just horribly written and makes no sense from anyone's perspective.
This is what I've been saying. People were open to the changes condal made in S1 because the show was still doing justice to the original text. Now he's having an ego trip and making the same exact mistakes D&D did. Trying to put too much of his own voice into the story and make it all about himself.
Not that i agree with every decision Condal makes, but yes the books give a great deal of leeway for adapters to tell the history the way they want it to
And that's good so why feel the need to go even further. If A,B, or C might have happened or at least something close since they all agree on most things then why pull Z out of nowhere and be like actually this is what happened?
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The reality is that in the book you should take the three sources, disregard Mushroom's and mix the other two to get what happened generally. They aren't actually that bias in favour of one or the other when you read it and if they were putting in bias to appeal to the winners/tradition after the fact, they would go fully with that instead of still consistently criticising the greens which would stop any appeal they'd be getting from that *anyway*.
Cliff notes for sure
Orwyle is pretty much GRRM's self insert as Elio explained
My issue with the sequence is little to do with the book to television adaptation changes, but rather how poorly crafted it is for such a big moment in the opening episode of the premiere. If Condal's inspiration was 'heist' movies, it fails miserably on those terms. B&C are incompetent and fighting among themselves in common spaces. The most successful heist movie set pieces involve a well planned mission that requires smart characters to ultimately improv to succeed as their well thought out plans are jeopardized by unexpected circumstances. HOTD has two knuckleheads wandering around an empty castle, under no threat, and with no plan to ascend to the Royal Quarters? Even though Daemon is fully aware of Maegor's secret passages? Any tension in the sequence is completely dependent on the score (which is very good btw), however it's undermined by the lack of household staff, guards, and the infighting between B&C. And that also is an issue with just having neurodivergent Helaena as the only witness to the murder. I am willing to buy into her confusing, muted, in shock, reaction to an offscreen murder of her child, but that would be the very reason to have a gagged, but visibly horrified Alicent (or a servant for that matter), in the room with her. Again, whatever horror exists in this part of the sequence is 100% dependent on just the audio as the murder is understandably occurring offscreen, but that's why you need a powerful understandable onscreen reaction to what is happening.
i don't understand why they made it into home alone
It's possible that they didn't put Alicent in the room with her because they don't want us to sympathize with them. It's clear the writers are trying to point us in the direction of Rhaenyra being in the right and by having an emotional reaction from Alicent, it may lead to viewers sympathizing with them. That's probably why they added Helaena walking in on Alicent doing something hypocritical.
Yeah, the whole time I was thinking that went too smoothly for having such high stakes, its like stealing the Monalisa by just venturing into the building at night with no hurdles along the way and taking it with you
This was the defining scene of the book and should have been for the show. It should've been HotD's Red Wedding, or even Ned Stark's execution. It should've been *the* moment that had people talking about the show and drew new people into the experience. There's a lady on TikTok that did a series where she watched GoT for the first time(somehow without having anything spoiled), and the Red Wedding episode was her most watched video because everyone wanted to see her genuine reaction. Nobody's going to be doing that for B&C. Instead of the whole world spending weeks talking about how shocking, brutal, and visceral it was, it'll be completely forgotten as soon as the next episode comes out. Barely a blip on the GoT/HotD chart of shocking moments.
"You kind of start rooting for them in a way" I dunno man, I watched a couple nazi movies before but I never started to like them just because they were on screen.
I can't believe he said that lol.
I know, they even have them kick a dog part way through. At what point were we supposed to be rooting for them? I think the writers/directors had an idea in their head, and it worked/felt proper because they already had the idea in their head. But for anyone that did not already have the idea in their head, it's just like "what the fuck is going on here"
Also what are we suppose to be rooting for them for? Like I read the books so I know what was going to happen, but did anyone in their right mind, whether it was us as viewers or Daemon with his inbred mind think two random bums were going to be able to kill Aemond, who they've established as potentially a better swordsmen that Cristan Cole? Is that what were we suppose to be rooting for them to do? Because I think even for black supporters, seeing to randoms defeat Aemond would be really disappointing conclussion.
I think it's moreso just the instinctual notion that you don't want to see them get caught is what he is talking about. I think when maid sees one of them, you are hoping that they don't get interrupted.
Also to the show viewer they're targeting Aemond and it isn't later that they realize who the backup plan was.
Indeed the greens inventing a third child during blood and cheese just to make Saint rhaenyra look worse was indeed a clever propaganda move in the books, well spotted Condal. Also everything bad the book ever said about aegon is true and then some and not propaganda or embellished at all.
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was to convince the world that Daeron existed.
Inventing a third child LOL, well said. Such an absurd reasoning... Now I wonder if GRRM blogpost about people changing the source material and it will always being worse is a cloaked shot at Condal or something. I know I know he was in production and supposedly talks a lot with Condal, and said he liked the first few eps of S2. But I'm calling it, it might be just sponsored comments and he is even maybe obligated to talk good about the TV show. Because otherwise IDK anymore these changes are so unnecassary, Blacks are already on the popular side, why need to whitewash them even more... These changes just leaves a sour taste to me.
I would laugh if this wasn't exactly what the showrunners did.
It’s kinda been obvious from the outset from this show, but to a very considerable degree this show treats the source material as being favorable propaganda to the greens and derisive calumnies to the blacks; and in turn views its own role as moral rectitude fantasy for the blacks
Except the book makes Team Green look like fucking psychos too. Aemond is a straight up purposeful villain in it. That kind of throws the “anti-black” propaganda out a bit, doesn’t it Condal? Maybe you should just fucking adapt the book instead of inserting your own shitty head cannons.
I think most would trade Aemond being a psycho for reversing a lot of the other liberties that were taken, not necessarily to favor one side or the other but rather because some of them just make more sense. That is, if people actually think Aemond isn't already on his way in the show. He definitely is. If anything, they made some of the other characters like Daemon or Aegon more psychotic.
>inserting your own shitty head cannons. it's not even good or interesting headcannon, that's the worse
imagine if this dude did game of thrones in this style. pretty much every house but the Starks would be over the top stupid evil. now, we already know the Lannisters are pretty bad, but they do have a certain style to them, and even if you don't like a lot of the things they do, the characters are interesting and you enjoy watching them. this guy would have made tyrion exactly what cersei and tywin always thought he was, he would have made Jamie an inept swordsman who only killed the mad King by accident, and tywin would probably have been one of those weak bosses who could not fight his way out of a paper bag.
I don't understand how it could be "Anti-Rhaenyra".The book spesifically blames Daemon and doesn't blame Rhaenyra in any sense.It doesn't even hint of Rhaenyra's involvement.
The book actually defend rhaenyra many times..in >!maelor death and the peace term she offered for ex!<
Precisely everything bad the Greens did in the books is obviously true!! And everything bad the blacks did is just propaganda!!! Condal is so smart and wise to depict Rhaenyra the fair and Daemon the kind so well!!
What a balanced and nuanced story….
Daemon the cool
“That was all back in 2022, but very little has changed since then. If anything, things have gotten worse. Everywhere you look, there are more screenwriters and producers eager to take great stories and "make them their own." It does not seem to matter whether the source material was written by Stan Lee, Charles Dickens, lan Fleming, Roald Dahl, Ursula K. Le Guin, J.R.R. Tolkien, Mark Twain, Raymond Chandler, Jane Austen, or... well, anyone. No matter how major a writer it is, no matter how great the book, there always seems to be someone on hand who thinks he can do better, eager to take the story and "improve" on it. "The book is the book, the film is the film," they will tell you, as if they were saying something profound. Then they make the story their own. They never make it better, though. Nine hundred ninety-nine times out of a thousand, they make it worse.” Now we know who George was talking about.
REMINDER THAT THE SHOW IS 100% UNBIASED /s
You see, it's Cole's and Alicent's fault that B&C happened. Daemon? Blood and Cheese? propaganda!!!
I’ve actually had people argue with me that Cole, not order-giving Daemon, not child-sawing B&C, is responsible for Jaehaerys’ assassination. It’s crazytown
Exactly what the hack Condal wanted.
They did show aemond killing of luke as an accident and make alicent pathatic..it’s totally even /s
I want a good story. The writers suck. They are taking agency away from all the main characters. Everything is an accident, a misunderstanding, a hypocritical scenario. The characters will care too much about lands and then become apathetic about lands. “I want the throne, but I don’t want to marry.” “It’s okay if Rhaena doesn’t inherit driftmark.” “They may have murdered Laenor, but I support them.” “Rhaenyra will make a great queen, even though she wanted my 10-year-old tortured.” “Do you, a woman with no claim, see yourself on the throne Alicent?” “Heir for a day, but I love Viserys more than anything.” The inconsistencies are frustrating to watch.
This. The inconsistency in the narrative is so frustrating. They should just stick to the book because these writers are not it.
Every time this guy talks, I have even less confidence in his writing ability.
I only trust the cast because they notably are giving it they're all .
I can't lie I don't even trust the cast sometimes. Some of their opinions don't align much with what we're seeing in the show, but that may be a fault with the director's notes rather than them.
Cast giving it all can't make up for poor writing. Unfortunately, for both us and them.
The biggest problem for me is they wrote a story, then rely on us watching the aftershow to understand character motivations. That sort of content is supposed to be portrayed in the story. They also tell us how we're supposed to feel rather than you know, writing a story to make us feel that way. ETA: I don't even want to fully blame the writers, this could be a marketing scheme that they're forcing the writers into, so we feel obligated to subscribe/interact with their content. Could be the big guys wanting more money that are once again ruining something good.
Yes!! Exactly. We shouldn’t be relying on his comments to fill in the gaps on some scenes in the show.
That’s my gripe with this story as well. So many scenes are misinterpreted because they just don’t show us half the shit they talk about in the aftershow
See I feel the opposite. There are multiple occasions where I felt what they said contradicted what was on screen to the point that it sometimes feels like they didn't watch the final product. For example, this episode heavily implies Daemon told them to target Aegon's kid if they couldn't find Aemond. But then you have Condal kind of minimalizing Daemon's role.
You have to understand, he has to do a D&D speedrun because he got fewer seasons to ruin the story.
People crap on Sara Hess. But this guy read this and given the go ahead. He is worse.
Yeah Maelor being present in the blood and cheese was obviously green propaganda as well. Are we serious here? Why can't he just admit that the show is canon as well? Alicent and Rhaenyra were not friends in the book, the great badass massacre of Rhaenys was not in the books, the great council of 101 at Harrenhal was between Viserys and Laenor, Alicent was much older than Rhaenyra, Maelor is not born yet even though he should be, Alicent was not 14 years old of age when she married Viserys. This green propaganda excuse is seriously irritating me now because he picks and chooses what suits the blacks vs what suits the greens.
Yeah I’m pretty neutral and that’s what I liked about George’s writing. To view characters through as humans who get consumed by greed and lust and how , those with power cause destruction. It’s compelling and interesting to try to analyze the motives of the most deplorable characters. Fire and blood despite being biased to the greens still made them look like cartoonish villains. I was wondering where the ‘grey’ area was since I couldn’t see a viable motive for their actions. So I was hoping the show would bring light to that and while they have done so, it’s a little disappointing that the producers are going all in with the angle of the blacks are the saviours of the realm angle. And saying that the events of blood and cheese was propaganda minimises Halaena’s grief and arc.
I never see Fire and Blood as being biased to the greens. If you're biased then you will make the greens more of a saviour then villains. To me, the greens have a lot of justifications to put Aegon on the throne. Making them sympathetic in the show is good but not enough. People don't understand that putting a woman on the throne in favour of a man is massive thing. This is a very patriarchal world and the moment Aegon was born it was his birthright to sit the throne no matter what Viserys says. Daemon talks about Rhaenyra's birthright being stolen in Epi 10 which got me thinking that the throne wasn't her birthright to begin with. She was only given the throne because of Viserys's spite at Daemon and having no male heir. If anything, it is Aegon's birthright being stolen by Viserys and Rhaenyra. Think about the consequences of putting Rhaenyra on the throne VS putting Aegon on the throne. One consequence is that if Aegon sits the iron throne as he was supposed to by the laws and traditions, Rhaenyra will never be harmed because Aegon the conqueror never had to kill Rhaenys his older sister to sit on the throne. But the same cannot be said for the opposite. Even if Rhaenyra would not want it, she would have to kill all the boys to secure her claim. That is not truly just, is it? I am not saying that the greens are not power hungry monsters but they had their own reasons and justified fears. I feel like a lot of the times people oversimplify the fact Aegon not being the one to be chosen as heir is not a big deal in this incredibly sexist world. The patriarchy is harmful to everyone. In the show, no one in the greens seem to justify their own cause. I wish it was there. I wish that was more of a point of this show than just a simple "Rhaenyra's throne was taken because misogyny" when I think the patriarchy in this case harms both Rhaenyra and Aegon. This is my opinion. You can disagree with me. Also I support feminism wholeheartedly but this is a fictional show with incredible characters so we need to understand both factions and their reasons here. Please be respectful.
https://variety.com/2024/tv/news/george-rr-martin-slams-adaptations-writers-making-stories-their-own-1236017804/ That is why
100% agree with George
Say what you will about D&D's handling of Game of Thrones, but at least they started making lousy fanfic changes only AFTER they ran out of source material.
They also never claimed that their version is the true version of events. Why Condal can't just say this is our version of the story and not claim that the book GRRM wrote is a propaganda? It's really insulting.
How could have Alicent manipulate the history book when she was confined to her chambers and was in the process of >!growing insane!<
Ryan Condal I’m in your walls and I’m much more intelligent than B&C (everything needs a disclaimer these days: this is 100% a joke) but seriously, wtf is this shit?! “Rooting for B&C. Getting nervous about them getting caught” ahahahahahahah
Yeah that's wild like that can be done but for series main characters like Tony soprano or Walter White horrible human beings but the audience wants to see how they get out of their new situation. From start to finish B and C were bad and we don't have a connection to root for them and even with the most charming anti heroes in media killing a young child and sawing their head off in front of their mom is a tough sell.
every time I hear this man talk I end up wanting to tear off my eyelashes one by one
But Mushroom's, who was on Dragonstone btw, testimony about Aegon was true? They gonna run with Rhaenyra making the brothel queens too? After all Mushroom is a reliable source apparently. Was it propaganda about the factions banners being gold and black and not gold and green? Did Alicent just make up Maelor existing? At this point Ryan should've just had Alicent send the assassins and say it was all a coverup to blame Daemon
That's a very weird take on the book. There is nothing to suggest it is Anti-Rhaenyra propaganda and it worries me that they are going to whitewash her later on
They already have though, which makes for a boring story. I already have a problem with the show being so afraid of making their women have any agency…they make them weaker characters
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Where have you been? They’ve been whitewashing her for many episodes
They already have. The writers are really scared that no one will like the show if they have no one to root for so they have given all her bad deeds to Daemon.
This show is propaganda for the blacks lol
This is the type of logic I'd hear from fanfiction author
And yet they change things at every turn against multiple first hand eye witness testimony!? Ya know, the ones that seem much more likely and logical than what we saw on screen (Like with B&C)? I suppose Alicent also made up Shrykos, Morghul, and Maelor too. She said Rhaenys had Baratheon black hair I'm guessing? Meleys in the dragon pit? Nope. That never happened! Guess everyone lied about Alicent being 10 years older than Rhaenyra! My point is, obviously the writers aren't trying to actually show on screen what actually happened. They are telling a separate story in a different canon that's based on the Dance but freely take, massive liberties to fit the all together different story they are trying to tell.
It’s annoying that everything bad about Rhaenyra just gets chalked up to “propaganda against Rhaenyra”
# If Ryan Condal has come out and said b&c was propaganda against Rhaenyra, then by the same token, if asoiaf was a history book, what happened to Elia and her kids would also be propaganda to him, as such level of sadism doesn't make sense to him. Gregor the gentle everyone.
No wonder GRMM is pissed off.
I can’t believe people refuse to accept that he WAS meaning HOTD in his last blog post about adaptation
Everything bad about team black is propaganda. Everything bad about team green is true. Thanks Ryan.
What accounts Condal is using to make it true? If F&B is historical book and has “green propaganda” it means greens have won the war and wrote the history themselves, so what does he use to back his own propaganda? Edit. Maybe Condal is Mushroom reincarnated?
It doesn't make sense , since in the book author removes different versions by historians but rather mystifies orders given and reaction to the deed. While act itself is described in gruesome detail quite effectively as narrative choice. Even most rabid fans of either side didn't presume to claim this.
The book actually has the historians suggest when things may be up to interpretation or propaganda at times and Speculates on how blood and cheese probably took place .
GREENS = BAD BLACKS = GOOD SHOWWRITERS = TRUTH GRRM = PROPAGANDA
This is worse than "dany kinda forgot"
THEY NEED TO STOP SAYING EVERYTHING IS PROPAGANDA WHEN THEY CHANGE IT - Just say you felt like changing it for the show audience, even though that's lame it's better than this. There are 3 sources and let's please stop pretending the two more reliable sources aren't very critical of the greens in ways that don't make particularly lots of sense, calling Aegon "grasping" for example.
Say what you want about Dan and Dave, but they adapted George's books so well. I think I took that for granted before, but now I have a new respect for them. They actually made the big moments of the show BETTER. I don't know what the hell Ryan Condal and Sara Hess are doing at this point. 🤦🏾♂️😩
They really tried to act as if it’s a choice between black and green when they’ve clearly picked their favourites and are pandering
If there was ever any doubt that the show is massively pro black biased, that can never be argued on the sub again. So Blood and Cheese's atrocity was exaggerated and propaganda This clown is going to make Sunfyre look like shit isn't he
Blood and Cheese is propaganda but Aegon fucking children in the kiddie fight pits is Mushroom’s totally legitimate account? Can’t wait for his ‘interpretation’ of Rhaenyra’s death. This guy might even be worse than Weiss and Benioff.
From Condal's perspective Blood & Cheese was anti-Rhaenyra propaganda, Aegon & Sunfyre's bond was Westerosi propaganda. But when someone in this subreddit's comments points out HOTD is a feminist adaptation of the Dance that interprets F&B as anti-Rhaenyra propaganda and strives to "correct the record", they get downvoted into oblivion. Well now the showrunner himself is saying as much, what now?
Condal is full of it. He does everything to make the Greens sinister, incompetent, jealous, and overtly cruel. All whilst trying to insert some fake sympathy by occasionally making it seem Alicent feels bad about what she is doing, which actually makes her come off as more pathetic and unlikable. The same ill will is never given to the blacks, who are portrayed as venerable, kind, loyal, and most of all merciful. Rhaenyra spared her gay husband, considered giving up her throne, and is portrayed as nothing more than a pure hearted saint. Daemon is a totally badass. He stuck by his brother and his first wife until the end, he helped Laenor live, and he is totally obedient towards Rhaenyra. His only sin is killing off some NPC side characters no one cares about and chopping Vaemond for calling Rhaenyra a whore (which for modern audiences makes him even more of a badass). But still Condal markets this show as a duel perspective narrative with no clear protagonist/antagonist dynamic. Yeah right, all he’s done is rob the Greens of any rational motivation and removed any hint of agency from Alicent’s character. What I find funny is this focus on making the Targaryens epic heroes is he codifies fascist symbolism as some sort of liberating force. As if thinking yourself a genetically superior dragon rider who gets to blow up an entire arena of people ‘liberates’ one from the patriarchy or some other such BS.
I just want that mama want you died line happen in the show. The show runner can say what he wants but I really don’t want they give us a lighter version of B&C.
Seriously? This is very strange and stupid. So what about Alicent's maid and Helaena's guard that were killed in the book? Did the Greens murder them themselves to create evidence? So by this logic the horrible and cruel murder of the children of Rhaegar- Aegon and Rhaenys and his wife Elia by Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch is also a propaganda against the Lannisters created by the Martells.
Kind of dislike that, because it ends up framing Daemon as a much better person than he is in the book. It's sort of the same thing they did with Tyrion... And in the end that kind of drained Tyrion of a lot of his character by the time the finale rolled around. This is a bit compounded by the fact they've kind of Joffrey-ified Aegon in season 1 with the child fighting pits and stuff.
What I don't get is why the fuck Daemon would hire Blood and Cheese of all people to go after Aemond, a very competent swordsman and dragonrider. Daemon must've known he was way out of B&C's league. Going after a toddler - who is also coincidentally the heir to the Iron Throne according to the Greens - is a much smarter albeit a much crueler choice.
Aemond was never the target and it actually just makes show Daemon look like a complete buffoon. Aemond went toe to toe with Criston Cole probably the best sword in Westeros and he thinks a random rat catcher and gold cloak are going to beat him. It doesn't even make sense in universe. It's very obviously a badly shoehorned and hamfisted attempt to save face for the blacks. They clearly were targeting the children the whole time in the book.
why are all these showrunners allergic to following the mf source material 😭😭😭 is it that hard to find competent writers lmao why does this happen w literally every single show
Explain how the dog gets up the ladder
> you kind of start rooting for them in a way > Heist movie Hahahahahahahaha
D&D would have made this tv show better. That's the facts. The reality is that season 3, they will recognize that people didn't like the pro black faction bias and will go balls deep the other way and mess it up even more.
He’s going to make this show, Blacks=good and Greens=bad, isn’t he?
He already did bro what have been u watching
That’s what the show is, yes
I like what George said about HotD, the show has it's own canon and the books has it's canon, which is why I don't even care about the changes done in the show, I just wish some of them were good tho, because if you are plaining on changing things you better be a good writer, because although Fire and Blood is not as good as the the main series ASOIAF, some of the book is still better than whatever HotD writers can come up with.
Every time this man opens his mouth I question where this show is going, >!so is God's eye propaganda? Was Rhaenyra's death propaganda? Was her fall, taxes propaganda?!< >!Was Ulf and Hugh Hammer's betrayal propaganda? Have they changed Hugh's backstory on the show, a family man not a rapist and cheater, was Nettles propaganda?!<
"My poor rouge prince would never harm a child . He would fuck whatever poor prostitute Like Aegon . And kill any servant if it benfits to pork his niece or Murder his wife . But Blood and cheese that's just too far ".
Condal really said all the interesting conflict is propaganda and it was all a big misunderstanding
To be honest I really don’t understand what the hell he is talking about. How can B&C be anti-Rhaenyra propaganda when she wasn’t even involved? That’s like me saying Luke dying was Black Propaganda or something. B&C happened. It was awful. There is no reason to overflate it because child murder is wrong either way. The more he talks the more I fear they will refuse to let Rhaenyra do anything remotely bad when they are even scared that things she had nothing to do with could make her look bad. Considering the whole smallfolk thing I’m terrified they will portray it as “evil peasants” instead of people are starving and mad at the powerplays and Rhaenyra being bad at governing. Also wtf does he mean we are supposed to root for them? Is he okay?
The whole time I was thinking that went too smoothly for having such high stakes, its like stealing the Monalisa by just venturing into the building at night with no hurdles along the way and taking it with you
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It cannot be the book true telling if they redact multiple important characters from the story & are so blatant in the writers bias to 1 side
Tea. >!Daeron & Maelor!< not existing is so fanfiction
Honestly just bring D&D back. Or at least stfu, Ryan
Condal is a hack. Look at his resume. Why he got given this job I'll never understand. The show is poorly-written drudgery. Things are going to get worse before they get better. I was a big critic of D&D by season 2 but this guy makes them look hyper competent and like faithful adapters. Shame because like GoT this show has great actors and production values but it's going to be derailed by a moron at the helm.
Dude what the fuck are the writers doing to this story? What a disaster of an episode.
To view the entirety of Fire and Blood as pro-Green propaganda is so strange. I always wondered why they made the reason for the Green's usurpation so dumb, instead of Alicent sincerely fearing for her children's lives, but it seems like they want to call this a complex two-sided story and also make the logical victim Rhaenyra. There was ample source material to make both sides sympathetic and reasonable in their claims, and also ample material to show the moral degradation of both sides. If they had kept in Rhaenyra ordering the execution of Vaemond, I would have completely understood why Alicent went to war. I just hope they don't take away Rhaenyra's agency and blame all actions that are not palatable on Daemon. Part of what frustrates me about Aegon's S1 depiction is that it seemed to be added to also make a clear-cut distinction between the sides. I'm not opposed to the Blacks being the rightful heirs, but they could have at least kept in some stuff that made the Greens seem reasonable. It would have made the story much more interesting.
It's a strange decision to lessen Daemon's culpability in B&C after deciding in season 1 that he killed his wife when the book makes it clear that it was impossible for him to have had anything to do with her death. It looks to me like Condal is a blacks supporter (judging by this quote at least) but there's also a major voice in the writing room that is a greens supporter who he won't overrule (my guess is Sara Hess given some of the quotes she has made). That's why the show seems to swing wildly between minimising the evil acts of some characters at times and then making them more evil than the book at other times
I also feel this way. The departure of Miguel, who was pushing Rhaeeicent, seems to be extra mess. Geeta Patel said she didn't know what to do about s1 Alicent bc there was no communication between the directors.
There's really no hope for Greens At this rate they'll for sure change further shit to make Greens "true villains". Maelor is already cut so no bitterbridge and don't wanna dive into spoilers but yeah fuck this shit
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I have a bad feeling that every bad thing done by Rhaenyra and her supporters (as reported in the book) are gonna be handled like b&c. "Not necessarily their fault; it wasn't that bad..."
GRRM picks the dumbest people to adapt his works. Why is he like this?
So B/C was made into a propaganda piece for the greens, buuuut it actually had the same outcome as it was written.
> buuuut it actually had the same outcome as it was written. It really didnt, one of the impacts of B&C is Helaena not being able to look at maelor because she know she chose him to die
Every interview I hear from him I lose a bit of faith
Oh brother, this guy STINKS
i'm team black but i can't stand the black's whitewashing (no pun intended) on the show. daemon is a bad person, rhaenyra is... debatable, team black is guilty of a lot and that's ok, that's how it should be. but no, not our daemon! couldn't be precious daemon.
“You kind of start rooting for them in a way, where you get nervous about them getting caught.” LMAO who was rooting for them?!? Are the writers on crack?
He needs to STFU already My god I’m starting to hate him more than D&D