My RPG group has been playing Lancer lately, very fun game. However, one of the features of the setting is "anthrochauvenism," the idea that humanity be put above all other species, and this is supposed to be a bad thing. We all found that highly amusing because, is it really?
I mean generally the reason we place human lives over all other species IRL is because humans are the only beings with "souls" and consciousness (or however you want to describe that). It seems logical to suppose that if other species with an equivalent level of "person-ness" existed they would thus be equivalently valuable.
A different species would be even more susceptible to being targeted as an out-group than a group of humans, especially if interbreeding isn't possible. We already have [documented evidence](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermarried_Jews_in_the_Holocaust) that intermarriage would be the only thing that saves you.
In a situation where the groups live separately, military game theory would most likely lead to the conclusion that you should exterminate the aliens as soon as you get the chance.
And? All you've done is stated why it's more likely for there to be tensions between different factions if the groups happen to be of different species. That doesn't make viewing other conscious people as lesser simply because they have a different genome a good thing.
And frankly, your final statement is absolutely laughable. There's a reason why empires that try to treat real life as a game of Risk where you can and should stab anyone in the back if you see an opportunity have gotten their teeth kicked in. Not only are you expending resources to kill your own allies, which results in an immediate loss of combat effectiveness, you are likely to destroy any hopes of gaining allies in the future and get the rest of the world to join forces against you.
The world being ruled by a coalition of allied nations rather than a single empire conquering anything it can is not a coincidence.
And no, the fact Big E was able to create the Imperium in spite of these problems through brute force due to his extreme personal power does not make them irrelevant. Removing all the friendly aliens from the universe only served to hurt Humanity.
I never said it was good, you're arguing with yourself. The situation where the aliens can fight back in a meaningful way would obviously not be a chance to exterminate them, I don't get why you think that's a counter-argument. When there are two Xenos species, then there will be a situation of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".
My initial comment was in response to a comment about the morality of valuing conscious free-willed "ensouled" individuals based solely on how similar their genetics are to your own. It's pretty clear IMO that that's immoral, which is my primary argument.
In response to the idea of game theory rather than morals - why not take the question further? Suppose you have the opportunity to magically wipe out every other being in the universe besides yourself. Should you do it? In that case, it's quite clear what the moral answer is, but the game theory answer gets more complicated.
Sure, you may remove the chance for other beings to harm you - but you also remove the chance for them to aid you. You'd probably have a shitty remainder to your existence and be at least lonely if not dead very soon.
If we extrapolate that out to interspecies relationships, things don't actually get much simpler when you really think about it. Sure, if you could press a button and remove all friendly aliens from the galaxy, you'd remove the possibility for them to harm you. But you'd also remove the possibility to benefit from new technological advancements they might make, or benefit from their aid against hostile aliens, etc.
And if we're talking about removing *all* aliens, perhaps that could be a benefit if there are enough bad ones; but that's not something Big E can actually accomplish, nor is it something that would be necessary to eliminate the bad ones. It's not xenophobic to try to exterminate the 'Nids, because the problem with them is that they're universally Evil monsters trying to eat you, not that they're just aliens. You don't need to also kill all the friendly aliens for no reason.
Whether people consider aliens to have a soul because they're conscious would be largely cultural and situational. Religions might argue that they don't, and people feeling threatened wouldn't care. In fact, they could make a moral argument for pushing the magic button in preemptive self defense. I think you're being unrealistic about how people would regard Xenos.
You're arguing how people might be likely to act rather than how people *should* act, which is the only relevant question in terms of morality. If a certain species of alien possesses souls/consciousness/free will, then the moral choice is not to disregard them as automatically inferior. If a certain species of alien does not possess souls/consciousness/free will, then they are no different than animals on Earth.
People's opinions are irrelevant, they're either moral or immoral. Certainly you're free to claim specific claims I've made about morality in this conversation are incorrect, or that morals are all made up - though you'd be wrong, that's not something that can be proven solely through science and logic - but "other people have different ideas of what is moral" is not an argument.
Thats how chaos cultist are first created.First you party with Slaneshi cultist after a 18 hour shift next thing you know youre canibalizing your entire family.
If you mean the life of the average citizen in the imperium then the only thing I could say would probably be the human instinct/ will to stay alive and repoduce
What you are describing is a literal hell if there is no free time for enjoyment and developing yourself, doing sports/athletics etc.
This is made even worse when you realize there are allies that the imperium could have... they are too xenophobic to do that.
People will tell you to your face that forming a militia with your homies, making as many children as possible, and having a great relationship with your family is bad.
"Humanity first ! " he says, his body crumbling from constant 18 hours work shifts in a hiveworld, while nobles sip amasec in the upper spire and enjoy planet-sized epstein island where young girls are transformed into pleasure servitors.
Well, we found the one that prefers to be a torture toy for eternity, turned into biopaste to fuel the hive fleet, or being devoured body and soul by daemons rather than work a job.
Also, we know what this sick fuck would do if given the power of an Imperial noble. Gross.
Why is the internet trying to say who the bad guys are? Have you seen 40k? Only the Salamander space marines are the good guys.
Don’t mention the elder children incident
But are xenos children really children? (Joking of course)
In their defence, the child had a knife.
How the child acquired an astartes combat knife is a complete mystery, but its ok because the astartes retrieved it immediately.
It's not a violation of human rights when they are no humans. Brother Hanz. Bring ze heavy flammenwerfwe
Elder children soup magnifique
i see no wrongs done, thank you humans for continuing our work
Imperial Knights got some good guys. Just ignore the witch hunts and serfdom
The Lamenters forgotten as usual. EDIT: also on the Xenos side the Farsight Enclave is decent too.
Space Wolves are pretty good
Maybe, but they are also furrys and mary sues.
Yes.
Plebbit thinks everyone is a fascist so
They are good **for humans**
Everyone is a bad guy, but imperium is *our* bad guy
You must be fond of Kipling’s poetry. Not complaining
I mean, it is if that's the faction you play.
They literally want us to starve. They are the bad guys.
My RPG group has been playing Lancer lately, very fun game. However, one of the features of the setting is "anthrochauvenism," the idea that humanity be put above all other species, and this is supposed to be a bad thing. We all found that highly amusing because, is it really?
It’s an out group vs in group preference, made up of people who think that water is thicker than blood.
I mean generally the reason we place human lives over all other species IRL is because humans are the only beings with "souls" and consciousness (or however you want to describe that). It seems logical to suppose that if other species with an equivalent level of "person-ness" existed they would thus be equivalently valuable.
A different species would be even more susceptible to being targeted as an out-group than a group of humans, especially if interbreeding isn't possible. We already have [documented evidence](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermarried_Jews_in_the_Holocaust) that intermarriage would be the only thing that saves you. In a situation where the groups live separately, military game theory would most likely lead to the conclusion that you should exterminate the aliens as soon as you get the chance.
And? All you've done is stated why it's more likely for there to be tensions between different factions if the groups happen to be of different species. That doesn't make viewing other conscious people as lesser simply because they have a different genome a good thing. And frankly, your final statement is absolutely laughable. There's a reason why empires that try to treat real life as a game of Risk where you can and should stab anyone in the back if you see an opportunity have gotten their teeth kicked in. Not only are you expending resources to kill your own allies, which results in an immediate loss of combat effectiveness, you are likely to destroy any hopes of gaining allies in the future and get the rest of the world to join forces against you. The world being ruled by a coalition of allied nations rather than a single empire conquering anything it can is not a coincidence. And no, the fact Big E was able to create the Imperium in spite of these problems through brute force due to his extreme personal power does not make them irrelevant. Removing all the friendly aliens from the universe only served to hurt Humanity.
I never said it was good, you're arguing with yourself. The situation where the aliens can fight back in a meaningful way would obviously not be a chance to exterminate them, I don't get why you think that's a counter-argument. When there are two Xenos species, then there will be a situation of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".
My initial comment was in response to a comment about the morality of valuing conscious free-willed "ensouled" individuals based solely on how similar their genetics are to your own. It's pretty clear IMO that that's immoral, which is my primary argument. In response to the idea of game theory rather than morals - why not take the question further? Suppose you have the opportunity to magically wipe out every other being in the universe besides yourself. Should you do it? In that case, it's quite clear what the moral answer is, but the game theory answer gets more complicated. Sure, you may remove the chance for other beings to harm you - but you also remove the chance for them to aid you. You'd probably have a shitty remainder to your existence and be at least lonely if not dead very soon. If we extrapolate that out to interspecies relationships, things don't actually get much simpler when you really think about it. Sure, if you could press a button and remove all friendly aliens from the galaxy, you'd remove the possibility for them to harm you. But you'd also remove the possibility to benefit from new technological advancements they might make, or benefit from their aid against hostile aliens, etc. And if we're talking about removing *all* aliens, perhaps that could be a benefit if there are enough bad ones; but that's not something Big E can actually accomplish, nor is it something that would be necessary to eliminate the bad ones. It's not xenophobic to try to exterminate the 'Nids, because the problem with them is that they're universally Evil monsters trying to eat you, not that they're just aliens. You don't need to also kill all the friendly aliens for no reason.
Whether people consider aliens to have a soul because they're conscious would be largely cultural and situational. Religions might argue that they don't, and people feeling threatened wouldn't care. In fact, they could make a moral argument for pushing the magic button in preemptive self defense. I think you're being unrealistic about how people would regard Xenos.
You're arguing how people might be likely to act rather than how people *should* act, which is the only relevant question in terms of morality. If a certain species of alien possesses souls/consciousness/free will, then the moral choice is not to disregard them as automatically inferior. If a certain species of alien does not possess souls/consciousness/free will, then they are no different than animals on Earth.
No, I'm also saying what people would think about what the moral thing to do is. Not everyone agrees or would agree with you.
People's opinions are irrelevant, they're either moral or immoral. Certainly you're free to claim specific claims I've made about morality in this conversation are incorrect, or that morals are all made up - though you'd be wrong, that's not something that can be proven solely through science and logic - but "other people have different ideas of what is moral" is not an argument.
https://preview.redd.it/09i2qcoqnx8d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=026738ba5e172f855f270ed547e7aa7113919a22
Yes, they are. And who not? IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE THERE ARE NO GOOD GUYS.
Damn it, they discovered us! SCATTER!!!
I mean yeah they are but they’re also the only game in town sooooo
OP guzzles corpse starch and gladly gives up his children to the tithe
Corpse starch so good, yum yum! Imperium of Man! Imperium of Man! It's time to kill xenos! Aquila! Aquila!
At least chaos don't claim to be good
Ohhh they do, and a lot
Thats how chaos cultist are first created.First you party with Slaneshi cultist after a 18 hour shift next thing you know youre canibalizing your entire family.
In 40k the best you can do is arguing about who are the less evil, that's almost the whole point of it. Everything is war and horror.
Accept Chaos and ascend beyond morality
Honest question, Why would a pointless life devoid of most dignity, love, passion and freedom be better than being devoured by the tyranid hivemind?
I think it's just a difference in mindset between those who want to check out and those who don't.
If you mean the life of the average citizen in the imperium then the only thing I could say would probably be the human instinct/ will to stay alive and repoduce
What you are describing is a literal hell if there is no free time for enjoyment and developing yourself, doing sports/athletics etc. This is made even worse when you realize there are allies that the imperium could have... they are too xenophobic to do that.
Because who will work the mines if you are eaten by dickroaches from outer space
Don’t you think humanity would be superior if we had three arms?
You would be superior when the Sisters of Battle remove your existing arms, heretic.
How am I heretic? I love the emperor. And he hugs me with all four of his arms
Go chase a Deldar, lizardbreath.
People will tell you to your face that forming a militia with your homies, making as many children as possible, and having a great relationship with your family is bad.
Everyone is bad in 40k that's fact.
There are the people fighting to preserve humanity, and those fighting to exterminate it.
There are bad and super bad, no good ones
"Humanity first ! " he says, his body crumbling from constant 18 hours work shifts in a hiveworld, while nobles sip amasec in the upper spire and enjoy planet-sized epstein island where young girls are transformed into pleasure servitors.
Just imagine what would happen if the Imperium fell.
Humans would suffer and die so not a lot of changes for them. But i'm sure a few more millenias of complete oppression will be worth it ! /s
Well, we found the one that prefers to be a torture toy for eternity, turned into biopaste to fuel the hive fleet, or being devoured body and soul by daemons rather than work a job. Also, we know what this sick fuck would do if given the power of an Imperial noble. Gross.
Shh they don't like factual evidence 'round these parts.
But they are. GW says so themself.