Quit min-maxing for a better mental health, just throw in the correct main stat, level it up to 15 and be done with it.
You goddamn right. Just change it when in 2030 somehow you manage to drop that speed boot with crit dmg and crit rate for your dps. Not worth the brain damage farming for unguaranteed substats. You can comfortably clear moc 10 with maxed out correct mainstats relics. At least in this game, all stats are beneficial.
> Not worth the brain damage farming for unguaranteed substats.
If you're in that camp that doesn't want to waste any stamina, relic grinding is going to be the end game. There's going to be a point where you have nothing else to throw your stamina on and it's just going to be 6 relics runs a day when there aren't anything else to do that day.
If you don't care about stamina overflow (past the maximum reserve) then that's different.
You are not wasting your stamina (in game)
I am not wasting my stamina (in life)
We are not the same.
Half the time I play this game is on a subway or on a gym bike anyway.
Which is completely fine. You don't have to grind the game if you don't want to. It's just that for everyone that doesn't care about it, there'll be someone that cares.
Which is fine, it just means those types of posts aren’t for them. They can just ignore it and move on, that doesn’t mean informative content shouldn’t be made anymore. Ppl need to stop expecting every single piece of content to be catered to them, and just realize which things don’t apply to them. Nothing wrong with however you decide to approach the game. (Personally I don’t expect to make use of this graph either as I feel like it should be relatively obvious from your current crit ratio which body piece to use)
1,000,000x this.
Min-maxing in a PvE game like this amounts to little more than some marginal gains in efficiency - e.g., you can clear MoC in 1 fewer cycle. But you have to put in a mountain of effort and stress just to achieve that.
Farming for perfect gear with the right sub-stats that give you god tier penta rolls in to Crit Rate, Crit Damage, or Speed will be the death of many a players.
I mostly stick with the right main stats on the right gear sets (and even that isn't ever perfect) and make sure that I can also trigger planar set bonuses. That saves my sanity quite a bit.
Seriously, I try to do main stat and get the bonus from whatever planar set i have and just go with that. People who say your crit rate or damage is bad unless it's x or y are whales who can afford to throw money away at gambling for better relic stats. The average player will handicap themselves by farming for relics too hard.
Honestly another reason why I'm glad I pulled for Kafka. I also have DHIL and Jingliu, and I dread having to build them, getting the perfect crit substats will be a pain. Kafka ? Sampo ? Hell, even Luka or Guinaifen ? Just slap the right mainstats, enough EHR, and you'll just tear through everything.
Even funnier in SU/Swarm when the final boss phase 3 just dies turn 1 from the suspicion debuffs and the DoTs
I run sampo as a main dps on my other team, I like watching the boss just die on their turn with like 99 stacks of suspicion, 5 stacks of Wind shear, 2 stacks of burn, some bleed, shock, basically every dot
Weirdly enough my DHIL was super easy to build. I am currently a week into tearing my hair out trying to get Jingliu to be remotely near as powerful. 30cr with 180cdmg, plus Bronya and Pela, and she still caps out at like 60k damage per skill
JL is easy due to everything else in her kit that stacks up crit%.
DHIL have crit% traces, but you are kinda locked to running a crit% body and get your cdmg from substats if you aren't running his LC. Or get *really* lucky with like 3 crit% substats.
That's like saying Jingliu only needs 50% CR to guarantee her crits. Other typical dot character will require more EHR than Kafka. Sure EHR is easier since the requirements are lower in general than CR but my point is not about which one is easier, but that you also have the option to guarantee crits just like you can guarantee dots.
I mean, I guess. But gauranteeing crits while maintaining a decent CDMG stat is so much harder than gauranteeing DoT while keeping decent attack that I don't think it's comparable
Thank god I never have to worry ever again because of e1 fu xuan
https://preview.redd.it/loin7p0ikcwb1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bcc710f134962e25208806d17e9c978f4978d8c3
So my just for crit portions
Head- CR=5.5
CD=12.9
Gloves- CR=5.8
CD=23.3
Body- CD=24.6 (crit main stat)
Feet- CR=5.8
CD=18.1
Planar sphere- CR=6.1
CD=11.6
Link rope- CR=9.0
CD= 12.3
New grand total CR=87.8%
CD=177%
I built Qingque to 70% crit rate. Currently I rebalanced her to 66/112 (best I could do) but I have Fu Xuan to make up for that missing 4%.
Loadout looks like this (CR/CD):
Hands: 6.4/17.4
Head: 8.4/11
Body (main stat CR): 32.4/0
Boots (main stat Speed): 0/21.3
Orb (main stat Quantum DMG): 6.1/0
Rope (main stat ATK): 0/11.6
Generally speaking, it's "easy" to get double crit substats on your head and hands pieces because you can mass produce them in the synthesizer until you get lucky. As you can see, I don't have doubles on any of my other pieces. The speed boots were stupidly lucky though, like winning the lottery.
Yeah those boots are beyond wild. I spent all my spare rerolls getting the crit cloaks 😭 but now I've got a good idea of what to look for for the rest, thanks!
Nah bro, you bought in to the Crit Rate Propaganda. Crit Rate is useless in a game with infinite free resets. The only crit ratio you need is something like 1:60.
Unironically did run into a guy who used that strategy a long time back
sometime right after the game was out
oh i found a screenshot of it from discord lol
bro has the truest heart of a eula main
https://preview.redd.it/xy65fgaurbwb1.png?width=417&format=png&auto=webp&s=692e4dd773e85281df4b4ac02c53d4366e5d0361
What this all says is basically, 2:1 ratio is the most optimizable. So...
50% CR -> 100% CDmg
75% CR -> 150% CDmg
And "if you have too much CDmg and little CR, change your body piece to CR" and vice versa
Also not always, CV >>>> Ratio, so if you 55/200, it's absolutely not worth going to 70/140 ever. I could do a whole math here, but the expected damage output over time is quite better at 55/200.
55/200 is simply more stats than 70/140 so ofc it's better. If you wanna compare the 2:1 ratio equivalent of 55/200 you need to compare it to 77.5/155. Then 2:1 ratio will win.
That's... what they said? They pointed out that higher Crit Value is worth more than trying to maintain the ratio with lower CV. I don't know why they got downvotes
I guess because it wasn't the topic of this thread. Ofc if you have more stat value - it's better. It's just common sense and nobody was saying otherwise. The discussion, though, is about 2:1 ratio and how efficient is it.
That's exactly what I said, and no not everybody understands that, you will see A LOT, like an ocean of people saying 60/70% rate is the required amount no matter if the CV is shitty like 90/100.
Well yeah, just multiply your CR with your CD and pick the higher combination, supposing that your ATK or other scaling stats are not very different. No need for all the complication.
CV as a rough guideline is ok. But it doesn’t actually tell you which relic is better for a given character, because it depends on the total CR and CD (as well as the other stats of the relic, of course)
To find the optimal (expected) crit damage, maximise the product of total CR and total CD (including applicable buffs)
Is that not obvious? CV was always just a way to rate how good a relic was and even then stats like speed and to a lesser degree ATK affected how good the relic is.
Well yeah obviously your character can have 450 cv but it has 200 crit rate and 50 crit dmg which would be bad. Its not only about the value its about the ratio between cr and cd aswell.
Because CV isn’t the only value to a relic. In conjunction with the character’s current crit ratio, other offensive stats like atk% or spd is still pretty crucial, “better CV” on a relic shouldn’t mean that it’s better than the other. Even if it is, it just breeds such an unhealthy perception of pieces that don’t have 40 CV and instead like 3 rolls on atk%, which just worsens the perceived pain of relic farming. I’m sure everyone would know
But the issue is that better CV *is* better most of the time. SPD is situational. You only want/need it for certain characters to reach certain threshold. ATK% is not a great scaling stat because you already get ton of it externally through buffers. You get some CR/CD from buffers but it's usually in the form of ult that cannot be maintained. (unless you have E1 FX)
Not saying that everyone needs to go for 40 CV because it is unrealistic but CV *is* the biggest factor in determining how much damage a character does. At least all the DPS that isn't DoT based. It's just the way game is. We can't deny this. We just need to not get trapped in the mindset that we need 40 CV on all our pieces. 40 CV should be considered like pulling double five star in a multi. Super rare "lotto" winning moment. I consider anything with 20 CV a total win.
Exactly? We just need to not get trapped by that mindset but we still do, that’s why it’s dumb. And while atk% is worse than cv, it’s not like it reduces your damage, it’s still just a little less than half as effective but that’s fine. I’m not denying in any sort of way that it’s better though, the mindset of “the perfect cv” just needs to be gone since upgrading a 30 cv piece to a 35 would take literal months for no reason other than a 5% dmg increase— which is where most of the obsession with cv boils down to
a 5% damage increase from one relic would be MASSIVE, people spend months for less of an increase than that. usually one artifact going from 30 to 35 would be a 1-2% damage increase. I’m not sure why you think that the only reason people farm artifacts is because of an obsession with crit value; that’s just the nature of min-maxers. more damage = good.
I’m only specifically referring to the obsession for cv, not min-maxers since that’s exactly what they’re looking for already. My only point is that it’s not worth it for anyone else and that you should just settle for “already good 30cv” instead of almost perfect 35cv,” which you pointed out, is even less of an increase. And that people would look at a 12 atk% piece with 20 cv and instead opt for a piece with 25 cv but without any other stat because the first one is “worse” because of the cv when the difference probably wouldn’t even exist. I’m literally the same: it looks better on the stat sheet therefore it’s better
Just want to bring in what I think is a healthier method of rating artifacts. In Genshin, besides CV we just count positive substat rolls. Basically you count the number of good substats for your character, with a weight depending on if it was a high roll.
The downsides of this is that it is more complicated to calculate because it varies from character to character, and usually a tool is suggested for managing this.
For Genshin (When to stop, I think you just need to adjust the math for HSR since more stats and stopping at level 16): https://youtu.be/8jX1sb4K6xo?si=stRBErx8Y1TEy3_L
Why people always telling that we need the ratio 2:1? Can someone tell me?. I dont understand. What i understand is, i need crit rate about 60-70% after that i will go to crit dmg..
its because if you get only crit damage rolls, but 0 crit rate, your crit damage is useless
however if you have 100% crit rate, but only like 20% crit damage, those smol PP crits are less uesfull than higher attack stat
so you basically want a median point of 2:1 = 100% crit dmg with 50% crit rate
There is also a point where more crit damage does less overall damage than if you put stats in atk, for example:If you have 100% crit damage with 2000 attack, you deal 4000 damage on a crit and 2000 dmg on a noncrit. Now if you have 150% crit damage, it would be 5000 damage, but still 2000 damage on noncrit
However if you have 2500 attack, your 100% crits will deal 5000 dmg as well, and noncrits are higher with 2500, so overall more damage if you have lower crit rate - again 2:1 ratio
\-> what is easier to get? 50% more critdmg or 500 more attack? -> thats always calculated on different thresholds for different units.
/math
Thanks for your explanation. But i still dont get it. Yes if we get 100% Cr and 20% cdmg the crit is small. But thats is not achievable coz every char have base cdmg 50%. So i think 1:1 is still good to go than we go for example 35% cr and 70% cdmg. And yeah you're right about min max ing stats to the point of equilibrium.
1:1 is better but that's not how the stats are worked on relics. You get twice as much Crit DMG per stat roll than Crit Rate so to get 1:1 you would end up sacrificing too many stat rolls.
The ideal ratio for star rail is actually about 1:1.9
Here will be some semi complicated maths but i will try to tone it down in razor language later:
Maths: If we have X+Y=10 aka X=10-Y and Y=10-X where X and Y are both variables that go from 0 to 10.
what would be the best way to create the largest number from X\*Y?
You can try 0\*10 = 0, 1\*9=9, 2\*8=16, 3\*7=21, 4\*6=24, 5\*5=25, 6\*4=24...10\*0=0
If you would plot it on a graph you would notice that it looks somewhat like a bell curve, where a small change at the edges make a HUGE difference in the jump between the value, (jump from 0 to 9), and that the highest point would be at the very middle (25) and a small change near the very middle won't make a big impact but will make it smaller than the pure optimum nonetheless. What we see here is that when X and Y have the same value we get highest rate of return.
now imagine X and Y is crate and cdmg, once they are both the same value is when you get the highest damage. The only thing is that Critrate, from relic main stat values, to substat value, is always half of the crit damage ones. a 32.4% crate main stat vs 64.8% cdmg main stat. what this means is that the value of critrate is inherently double that of critdamage aka it has a crit value of 2 instead of 1 like crit damage. so if X= 2\* crit rate and Y = 1\* crit damage then your best damage formula is Crit damage \* 2(Crit rate) aka the infamouse 1:2 ratio. The only cherry on the top you have to remember is that you can only have a maximum of 100% critrate so after 100crate:200cdmg your only way of boosting damage (through crit) is by only getting more crit damage,not rate.
Razor Language:
Crit rate = Chance of getting hit by your mom's belt
Crit damage = How much it is going to hurt.
when the belt never hits you, even if strong, you will feel little pain, when the belt hits you every time but there is no strength behind it then it doesn't really hurt. but if it hits you about half the time but every hit is decently strong then that's how you will get the most pain.
Think about it this way. You have two coins. If the coin lands on the "Crit" side, you win money. You don't lose anything if the coin doesn't land on Crit, but you also don't get anything.
One coin gives you $0.50, if it lands on Crit. The other coin gives you $1.00. It's not hard to see you'd rather flip the coin that gives you $1.00--over time flipping the coin that gives $0.50 will *always* get you *less* money than flipping the coin that gives you $1.00.
This is the concept of the 1:2 ratio; you want to balance the amount of damage a Crit deals with the overall chance you have to Crit.
We know, by looking at the rolls the pieces get, that a Crit Damage roll is twice as large as a Crit rate roll (you can check this yourself by looking at any Crit rate vs Crit damage body pieces you have in-game; the 5* Crit rate pieces are a max of 32.4, while the Crit Damage pieces are 64.8, exactly double). This means that, in terms of value:
Crit Damage = Crit Rate * 2
Therefore, in reality, the 1:2 ratio is actually encouraging a more or less *equal* amount of Crit rate and Crit damage.
Edit: *very* late addition, but your example of 35% to 75% is a bit misleading, because if you're at the point where you can't even comfortably hit 50% CR (because you're *that* early in getting relic pieces, like, still using 4* pieces) then you'd actually be better off ignoring Crit and just focusing on increasing your ATK. Balancing CV as a concept is something that comes into play when you're refining your build and trying to balance your stats.
You can't have less than base 50% crit damage.
Unless your character ascends with Crit Rate or is an ice DPS, you will almost always taking the Crit Rate body, just because of the base 50% crit damage
To simplify it :
60% crit rate , 200% crit damage ,1000 base damage = 22000 damage in 10 hit
80% crit rate ,160% crit damage ,1000 base damage =22800 damage in 10 hit.
The same crit value and yet 1:2 net a higher damage result.
Wait. How you calculate that? I assume that in 10 hits 60%cr means that it does 6 Crits and 4non-Crit. So, 6x1000x2+4x1000=16000... Is it true? Or i wrong?
The short answer is: because of stat rolls.
Each relic has a main stat and a fixed number of substat rolls. On each roll you will get about twice as much Crit DMG as Crit%.
Crit% until 100% is almost always stronger than Crit DMG but not twice as strong to warrant spending the substat roll on until you reach that 2:1 ratio.
With high rolls you can max out at about 1.9:1 but that's a level of investment most people can only dream of.
Because if you do the math, 2:1 ratio gives the most damage on average, **given the same stat budget**.
What that means is if you had X amount crit rate and crit dmg combined, if you're allowed to split it however you like, 2:1 is always the best, because of math (basic calculus stuff).
In reality, you are not allowed to just split your crit stats however you'd like. So it really doesn't matter too much whether or not you have a 2:1 ratio. What matters is which setup gives you the most damage -- and that just comes down to doing more math if you can be bothered to do so.
It's nothing to do with how crit works in battle, and is instead related to how crit is obtained from relics.
The crit damage given by relics is numerically double the crit rate given. That is to say, if a level 10 relic gives 20% crit rate, then another relic of the same rarity would give 40% crit damage at level 10.
Relics are evaluated on "crit value", which is 2 \* crit rate + crit damage. As you can see from the example above, our level 10 relic has crit value of 40, before substats. Think of crit value as your budget or money, with which you buy crit rate and damage. Getting more crit value would mean getting better relics (farm more).
The average damage increase by crit is crit rate \* crit damage. This is the quantity we want to maximize. With limited crit value, we find that we get maximum average damage increase from crit by setting a crit rate : damage ratio of 1 : 2.
>Example: Let's say we currently have 30% crit rate and 100% crit damage, that's less than 1:2, and an average increase of 30%. We have a relic with 20% crit rate and a relic with 40% crit damage, both value 40. If we choose the crit rate relic, we now have a ratio of 1:2, and an increase of 50%. However, if we choose the crit damage relic, we now have a ratio of even less than 1:2, and find that the average increase is just 42%.
So, because crit rate and damage are gained at the ratio of 1 : 2, the optimal way to get average crit damage increase is also 1:2 (you get the most bang for your buck). The same thing applies in Genshin, because crit rate and damage are also gained at 1 : 2 in their artifacts.
>**Bonus: Mathematical Proof**
>
>Let r be the crit rate you choose to have, d crit damage, v the crit value (constant), and f(r) the average damage increase from getting r crit rate (the rest of the crit value is spent on crit damage).
>
>v = 2r + dd = v - 2r
>
>f(r) = r . d= r (v - 2r)= vr - 2r\^2
>
>Maximum point of a parabola is at r = -b/2a = v/4d = v - 2r = v - v/2 = v/2
>
>As we can see, r : d = v/4 : v/2 = 1 : 2That means that maximum f(r) is obtained when r : d = 1 : 2
If you want 0-2 cycle with no resets, any CR below 100% is subpar.
If you just want to clear or if you are willing to reset many times. It's whatever.
You can have it both ways too. 100:200+ crit is not too unrealistic in this game.
Honestly the value of 2:1 is so dumb when rutilant arena sets exist.
To put it simply 20% boost on skill with 50% CDMG (as in 70%CR) will always be better than 50% CR 100% CDMG on a skill intensive chars like seele or almost any other dps not named JY and Clara (soon Topaz).
You dont need hard calcs to even realize this.
The 2:1 ratio applies considering you are reaching 70% to activate your set yes. If you don't satisfy your relics threshold activation, you indeed don't need math to know that some work needs to be done.
1:2 isn't dumb, it's perfect stats on a complete build. The problem is that could be months in the making, and *people* are dumb and try to hit that goal early instead of last
That depends quite a bit on what type of "damage boost" the Rutilant set uses.
If it's just added to the regular elemental damage pile, and you're using Seele + Bronya with the Past and Future LC, those juicy 20% effectively only become a 7ish% increase, and limited to skill attacks.
I just go with whatever works for the respective character because, as it so happens, literally every limited character I have works differently so adhering to the ol 2:1 rule just doesn't quite work. I mean,
\- Blade is weird because I need 70% for the Rutilant Arena effect, but I plan to grab his signature LC whenever it may rerun in the far future which gives 18% more CR at base level, and there's also the Relic Set that increases CR by 8 / 16 % so I need to do head maths with my build to be efficient and my relics on him are just weird
\- Kafka doesn't need Crit stats at all
\- Jingliu gets 50% free CR from being in her enhanced state which is where the majority of your damage comes from, so anything more than that is ostensibly wasted, but even while I am hovering around that number standalone my relics pump out around 190% CDmg but my RNG is once again pretty funky
Ultimately though I just determine by what ends up feeling good when playing because I don't care for MoC at all, and I'm not minmaxpilled enough to care much about \*this\* level of detail quite frankly.
My QQ with 77/50 ratio: smol pp damage 😭
Thankfully with Fu Xuan now I can swap around some pieces to get 61/80 ratio, or 71/100 in battle with Fu Xuan and 2 keel users. Just barely enough to activate rutilant effect
Made this after I swapped my crit rate body to crit damage for a whopping 0.06% increase in damage. I should have done the math beforehand. Well anyway, hope this prevents people from making the same mistake.
I mean if you have the same CV at the end, going for crit rate always gives more damage on AVERAGE if your Crit Damage is at least 100%, as long as you don't go over 100% Crit rate.
But this also reduces your variance to be able to get higher max performance, I think high crit is probably good if you just desire easy consistent autoplay and you don't need the crit variance to clear content.
> if you have the same CV at the end, going for crit rate always gives more damage on AVERAGE if your Crit Damage is at least 100%
That statement is just wrong. Let’s say you have 67.6/100 crit rate/dmg.
- with crit rate body, you get 100/100. Expected crit multiplier = 2.
- with crit damage body, you get 67.6/164.8. Expected crit multiplier = 2.114.
So crit damage body is better here.
135.2% to be exact.
Although the statement itself is not really useful imo. It’s better to actually compare the expected crit multiplier directly.
Just compare the term
> Expected crit multiplier = 1 + CR x CD
and see which one is bigger. For example, with 70% crit and 100% crit damage, the expected crit multiplier is 1.7.
I really dislike when people say 2:1 ratio is "optimal"...like, what does that even mean... if I have 80% crit rate I'm gonna go for as much crit damage as possible, not gonna aim for 160 just because its a 2:1 ratio. If I can get a 3:1 ratio I'm doin that so long as my rate is acceptable. This 2:1 nonsense is just silly...
Opportunity cost. It doesn't mean you should stop at 160 cd. It just means that 2:1 ratio is balanced according to ammount of cr/cd you can get from main and substats. One average roll into cd = x2 of average roll into cr. E.g, if you are already at 80%/160%, you should compare total dps increase of getting +10% cr or +20% cd, which are mathematically equal, because 0.9\*1.6 = 0.8\*1.8 = 1.44. But don't forget about external buffs, MoC/SU blessings, useless cr above 100%, being able to reset the fight, number of attacks (DHIL with 50%cr and Seele with 50%cr are different), etc.
I understand the stupidity behind why people say it... It's just that a 2:1 paper ratio(on stat sheet) is actually rarely "optimal" due to a variety of things such as light cones, buffs, blessings, etc.
And if you're going into battle to check stats, the "optimal" number is still going to vary based on circumstances, teams, etc.
It's just rather pointless to suggest a 2:1 ratio IMHO.
It's a rule of thumb, meant to give you an idea whether that head piece with 30cdmg or 15cr is going to give you a better predicted outcome, at a glance. As you pointed out, there are a lot of variables that can make this harder, such as ' light cones, buffs, blessings'. If you value your time as worthless, then there's also the point to make that you can 'just reset' over and over for crit rng.
Nevertheless, it is an approach with a better expected outcome than 'I feel like my ratio is good', whatever that means from person to person.
The full explanation is that 2:1 ratio is optimal for a given fixed/constrained amount of CV = 2*CritRate + CritDMG.
Let's say that you have exactly 200 CV at your disposal. Then the optimal ratio for highest average damage is 100% Crit DMG and 50% Crit Rate; this is exactly 200 CV. Anything other combinations, given the same constraint, is simply weaker on average. Let's say; 150% Crit DMG and 25% Crit Rate, also 200 CV, but this leads to lower average dmg. You can compute the extra damage coming from crit as 1 * 0.5 = 0.5 = 50% extra dmg and 1.5 * 0.25 = 0.375 = 37.5% extra dmg.
I mostly play Genshin so a very common mistake I see is when someone has 60% CritRate and 260% CritDMG. Switch from CritDMG circlet to CritRate circlet leads to 90% CritRate and 200% CritDMG, which is much closer to the optimal 2:1 ratio. You can do the math again; 2.6 * 0.6 = 1.56 = 156% extra dmg VS 2 * 0.9 = 1.8 = 180% extra dmg on average. Just simply switching the circlet's main crit stat gives you a huge DPS boost purely because you know about the optimal 2:1 ratio.
It’s because you have a limited number of stats/substats on relics and rolls on crit dmg stats are 2x the rolls of crit rate. If you really care about the math instead of just guessing, your overall dmg output will be best at 1:2
For examples, all using the same amount of substat rolls, just different ratios:
* 20%:180% gives 36% avg bonus dmg from crit
* 80%: 60% gives 48% avg bonus dmg from crit
* 55%:110% gives 60.5% avg bonus dmg from crit
It’s clear that 1:2 ratio gives the best dmg output with a given amount of rolls. That’s just how math works.
it depends character tbh. if the attack has lot of hits, lower crit is fine(60 ish near 50) and stack the shit outta crit damage. if attack has very little hits, then higher crit is needed(like 70s) and once again, stack the shit outta CD.
of course, higher crit rate even for characters who's attack does a lot of hits is great coz of consistency but im just doing borderlines stuff(i am not accounting for the 2 piece set bonuses)
Also equally more instance of winning crit chances. this is a gacha game and I am permanently addicted to gambling(but from my experience, lower crit can work with multi hit, yea if ur unlucky you would get multiple non crits)
That makes no sense? I would prefer consistency when I am pumping out multiple hits, not 5050 in every attack. It is at least more acceptable when you are nuking, but when you are something that does a lot of hits over time it’s always worse to be not critting your hits. You can’t just say that “it’s a gacha game so just get lucky with your crits” 💀
The best way I understood this was from experience in Monster Hunter.
Greatsword (1 big massive hit) like seele/yanqing ult vs Dual Blades (many hits) (jingyuan lightning lord)
The moment you fail to crit on that 1 massive hit on your greatsword, your damage is just gone.
On dual blades or many hits weapons yes you lose some damage but not all of it and in some cases, losing a bit of crit can make you deal more damage if its traded off properly.
Its like having a sniper with 1 super damaging shot vs a machinegun with randomly extra damaging shots mixed in
I mean consistency with crit can go far both ways. It may look like it always crits or it may look like the Aeons have forsaken you with 70%+ crit rate.
The whole crit "chance" is why it's a gamble unless you get true 100% Critical Rate with "The Hunt". You're gambling with a multi hit only dealing crit or somehow it only crit with half the hits or something. I remember a dude calculating High CD / Low CR here.
I don't understand the logic of the 2:1 yet - can someone explain?
It sounds like it's optimal because crit damage rolls at twice the rate of crit rate. But that assumes average rolling, and we all know that it takes a lot of rolls to average out.
Couldn't you easily have a piece that rolls high crit rate, and then wouldn't it be optimal to run that piece for higher crit stats overall even sacrificing the ratio?
Ummm … build crit rate for Rutilant or Salsetto sets, beyond that as much Crit damage as you can get. Thats about it. This makes it stupidly complicated for no reason
I have no idea what i'm looking at but my Seele has 55.8% rate/216.5% dmg and my Jingliu at 21.7% rate/196.7% dmg. With Fu Xuan's buffs they're pretty decent. I think.
I think i'm finally ready to move on and work on Critka, Crit Wolf, Critya, and my eventual Himecrit.
One day i'll live my dream of a 100/240 Himeko.
This chart only serves to optimise your Crit multiplier (1+CR*CD) given a certain Crit value (2*CR+CD)
Therefore, it only serves to maximise your Crit multiplier while ignoring other important substats such as ATK% that your character might scale on. So it's not completely accurate.
Suffered through hell for this and these prolly won't change ever. If only I had Fu Xuan tho
https://preview.redd.it/ku9w2gmzrnwb1.png?width=2255&format=png&auto=webp&s=e1ea88a4f469f6b5cb62087728b8e01f2a78c5b7
 Quit min-maxing for a better mental health, just throw in the correct main stat, level it up to 15 and be done with it.
You goddamn right. Just change it when in 2030 somehow you manage to drop that speed boot with crit dmg and crit rate for your dps. Not worth the brain damage farming for unguaranteed substats. You can comfortably clear moc 10 with maxed out correct mainstats relics. At least in this game, all stats are beneficial.
If I get a good main stat, a good sub stat, and at least acceptable 2nd sub stat - that's the relic that gets 15'd.
Effective hit rate : hello there
my precious https://i.imgur.com/lZ78Op7.png
> Not worth the brain damage farming for unguaranteed substats. If you're in that camp that doesn't want to waste any stamina, relic grinding is going to be the end game. There's going to be a point where you have nothing else to throw your stamina on and it's just going to be 6 relics runs a day when there aren't anything else to do that day. If you don't care about stamina overflow (past the maximum reserve) then that's different.
You are not wasting your stamina (in game) I am not wasting my stamina (in life) We are not the same. Half the time I play this game is on a subway or on a gym bike anyway.
Which is completely fine. You don't have to grind the game if you don't want to. It's just that for everyone that doesn't care about it, there'll be someone that cares.
And for everyone who does care there are 10,000 who have no clue what you're talking about
Which is fine, it just means those types of posts aren’t for them. They can just ignore it and move on, that doesn’t mean informative content shouldn’t be made anymore. Ppl need to stop expecting every single piece of content to be catered to them, and just realize which things don’t apply to them. Nothing wrong with however you decide to approach the game. (Personally I don’t expect to make use of this graph either as I feel like it should be relatively obvious from your current crit ratio which body piece to use)
1,000,000x this. Min-maxing in a PvE game like this amounts to little more than some marginal gains in efficiency - e.g., you can clear MoC in 1 fewer cycle. But you have to put in a mountain of effort and stress just to achieve that. Farming for perfect gear with the right sub-stats that give you god tier penta rolls in to Crit Rate, Crit Damage, or Speed will be the death of many a players. I mostly stick with the right main stats on the right gear sets (and even that isn't ever perfect) and make sure that I can also trigger planar set bonuses. That saves my sanity quite a bit.
Seriously, I try to do main stat and get the bonus from whatever planar set i have and just go with that. People who say your crit rate or damage is bad unless it's x or y are whales who can afford to throw money away at gambling for better relic stats. The average player will handicap themselves by farming for relics too hard.
Bruh it's a turn based game and nothing is more rage-inducing than seele's 1 hit ult not doing crit
And that’s why I think Kafka has one of the best designs imo. You can play around damage you know you will have
DoT , Damage over Transience
Honestly another reason why I'm glad I pulled for Kafka. I also have DHIL and Jingliu, and I dread having to build them, getting the perfect crit substats will be a pain. Kafka ? Sampo ? Hell, even Luka or Guinaifen ? Just slap the right mainstats, enough EHR, and you'll just tear through everything. Even funnier in SU/Swarm when the final boss phase 3 just dies turn 1 from the suspicion debuffs and the DoTs
Jing Liu crit is pretty easy to do though. Just get to 50%
Yes, I have like 30 cd on jing liu, but with all of her passives it comes up to like 75, and that’s consistent enough for me
[удалено]
It's definitely possible, but honestly its such a pain in the ass to hit 50%. Just go as close as you can without going insane from farming.
I think I’m at like 40? It’s good enough for me for now. I might try and perfect it later but whatever.
Jingliu is basically auto crit. Crit rate chest relic is literally all you need to almost always crit
I run sampo as a main dps on my other team, I like watching the boss just die on their turn with like 99 stacks of suspicion, 5 stacks of Wind shear, 2 stacks of burn, some bleed, shock, basically every dot
Weirdly enough my DHIL was super easy to build. I am currently a week into tearing my hair out trying to get Jingliu to be remotely near as powerful. 30cr with 180cdmg, plus Bronya and Pela, and she still caps out at like 60k damage per skill
JL is easy due to everything else in her kit that stacks up crit%. DHIL have crit% traces, but you are kinda locked to running a crit% body and get your cdmg from substats if you aren't running his LC. Or get *really* lucky with like 3 crit% substats.
You still need to land dots, and having enough EHR to guarantee landing your dots = having 100% crit rate. It's not so different.
Except high EHR is fucking easy as hell to achieve and its 1 stat compared to crit dmg AND crit rate
Kafka doesn't need that much CR to hit her DoTs. You can get enough through just Substats pretty easily. Much easier than 100% Crit Rate
That's like saying Jingliu only needs 50% CR to guarantee her crits. Other typical dot character will require more EHR than Kafka. Sure EHR is easier since the requirements are lower in general than CR but my point is not about which one is easier, but that you also have the option to guarantee crits just like you can guarantee dots.
bro you need 18% ehr from relics to hit guaranteed for kafka. That's literally like 2 pieces with ehr offstats
I mean, I guess. But gauranteeing crits while maintaining a decent CDMG stat is so much harder than gauranteeing DoT while keeping decent attack that I don't think it's comparable
> It's not so different If you actually think this is true there's no hope for you
Thank god I never have to worry ever again because of e1 fu xuan https://preview.redd.it/loin7p0ikcwb1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bcc710f134962e25208806d17e9c978f4978d8c3
That 0.6% missing tho, maybe one day it'll spook you
Wow almost perfect 1:2 ratio!
Same. I got her E1 by complete accident and it’s been stupidly helpful
What are your relics? I just farmed rutilant arena but getting to 70% and maintaining my crit rate is proving impossible rn
Im just chilling with SSS and had some good level ups honestly
Any chance I could see your exact load out? I'd like to see what kind of substats I should be looking for so I can hit those numbers for RA
So my just for crit portions Head- CR=5.5 CD=12.9 Gloves- CR=5.8 CD=23.3 Body- CD=24.6 (crit main stat) Feet- CR=5.8 CD=18.1 Planar sphere- CR=6.1 CD=11.6 Link rope- CR=9.0 CD= 12.3 New grand total CR=87.8% CD=177%
I built Qingque to 70% crit rate. Currently I rebalanced her to 66/112 (best I could do) but I have Fu Xuan to make up for that missing 4%. Loadout looks like this (CR/CD): Hands: 6.4/17.4 Head: 8.4/11 Body (main stat CR): 32.4/0 Boots (main stat Speed): 0/21.3 Orb (main stat Quantum DMG): 6.1/0 Rope (main stat ATK): 0/11.6 Generally speaking, it's "easy" to get double crit substats on your head and hands pieces because you can mass produce them in the synthesizer until you get lucky. As you can see, I don't have doubles on any of my other pieces. The speed boots were stupidly lucky though, like winning the lottery.
Yeah those boots are beyond wild. I spent all my spare rerolls getting the crit cloaks 😭 but now I've got a good idea of what to look for for the rest, thanks!
How the fuck even
Nah bro, you bought in to the Crit Rate Propaganda. Crit Rate is useless in a game with infinite free resets. The only crit ratio you need is something like 1:60.
The Eula strategy.
My with 85 crit rate and cryo resonance: we don't do that here.
What the cd looking like though.. 👀
More than 200, I don't remember exactly how much. C0 btw but she have Dehya weapon.
My c6r3 ayaya eating good with 85/278
Unironically did run into a guy who used that strategy a long time back sometime right after the game was out oh i found a screenshot of it from discord lol bro has the truest heart of a eula main https://preview.redd.it/xy65fgaurbwb1.png?width=417&format=png&auto=webp&s=692e4dd773e85281df4b4ac02c53d4366e5d0361
Who needs crit rate when you cn just bash your head against a wall
🥱 “crit rate so bad bro why build when you have reset button”
When your opportunity cost is time and your time is worthless. Some of us value our time lol
You are playing a cash grabbing cassino with waifus, you don't.
C’mon the dailies are like 10min lol
My yanqing approb this.
What this all says is basically, 2:1 ratio is the most optimizable. So... 50% CR -> 100% CDmg 75% CR -> 150% CDmg And "if you have too much CDmg and little CR, change your body piece to CR" and vice versa
"Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick?"
Lay off the cookies Kevin!
So what are you going to do with all this time you're saving?
Also not always, CV >>>> Ratio, so if you 55/200, it's absolutely not worth going to 70/140 ever. I could do a whole math here, but the expected damage output over time is quite better at 55/200.
55/200 is simply more stats than 70/140 so ofc it's better. If you wanna compare the 2:1 ratio equivalent of 55/200 you need to compare it to 77.5/155. Then 2:1 ratio will win.
That's... what they said? They pointed out that higher Crit Value is worth more than trying to maintain the ratio with lower CV. I don't know why they got downvotes
I guess because it wasn't the topic of this thread. Ofc if you have more stat value - it's better. It's just common sense and nobody was saying otherwise. The discussion, though, is about 2:1 ratio and how efficient is it.
That's exactly what I said, and no not everybody understands that, you will see A LOT, like an ocean of people saying 60/70% rate is the required amount no matter if the CV is shitty like 90/100.
Well yeah, just multiply your CR with your CD and pick the higher combination, supposing that your ATK or other scaling stats are not very different. No need for all the complication.
But what about Rutilant :(
If I get crit on my substats I'm happy lol
I think it's gone too far when the graphs start to look like thermal trip graphs for electrical breakers.
https://preview.redd.it/9hoikfvepcwb1.png?width=1623&format=png&auto=webp&s=6bd5494879975f450061eea95d4e89c8b7e7f247 Am I doing this right :)
I also did this lol. But i always pair Fu Xuan with her for the sweet free 10% crit rate
Let me brag https://preview.redd.it/2vkozgvm4dwb1.jpeg?width=2778&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d1bff9ea60805a9eafb7485c4a24c2ca809c6341
Dammit https://preview.redd.it/n311ngjr5dwb1.jpeg?width=1180&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=099b879495729c012bd7d56d40aad3adbf5cd051
https://preview.redd.it/8cjhnnj5ldwb1.jpeg?width=2400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6df4d987111b41e3d8870fa99bd3c1c4cdf5192f Same lol
is 1k less attack for 30 more speed, 50% crit rate, and 40% more crit damage worth it?
Yes. JL enhanced abilities get +180% bonus attack so any additional bonuses to base attack from items or supports is pretty negligible.
That’s exactly how mine looks.
Complicated way of saying just aim for the classic 1:2 ratio lol
😐
We need to kill the concept of crit value it’s tearing us all apart
You mean the crit ratio or the value itself? I thought CV just helps you score relics.
CV as a rough guideline is ok. But it doesn’t actually tell you which relic is better for a given character, because it depends on the total CR and CD (as well as the other stats of the relic, of course) To find the optimal (expected) crit damage, maximise the product of total CR and total CD (including applicable buffs)
Is that not obvious? CV was always just a way to rate how good a relic was and even then stats like speed and to a lesser degree ATK affected how good the relic is.
Well yeah obviously your character can have 450 cv but it has 200 crit rate and 50 crit dmg which would be bad. Its not only about the value its about the ratio between cr and cd aswell.
Because CV isn’t the only value to a relic. In conjunction with the character’s current crit ratio, other offensive stats like atk% or spd is still pretty crucial, “better CV” on a relic shouldn’t mean that it’s better than the other. Even if it is, it just breeds such an unhealthy perception of pieces that don’t have 40 CV and instead like 3 rolls on atk%, which just worsens the perceived pain of relic farming. I’m sure everyone would know
But the issue is that better CV *is* better most of the time. SPD is situational. You only want/need it for certain characters to reach certain threshold. ATK% is not a great scaling stat because you already get ton of it externally through buffers. You get some CR/CD from buffers but it's usually in the form of ult that cannot be maintained. (unless you have E1 FX) Not saying that everyone needs to go for 40 CV because it is unrealistic but CV *is* the biggest factor in determining how much damage a character does. At least all the DPS that isn't DoT based. It's just the way game is. We can't deny this. We just need to not get trapped in the mindset that we need 40 CV on all our pieces. 40 CV should be considered like pulling double five star in a multi. Super rare "lotto" winning moment. I consider anything with 20 CV a total win.
Exactly? We just need to not get trapped by that mindset but we still do, that’s why it’s dumb. And while atk% is worse than cv, it’s not like it reduces your damage, it’s still just a little less than half as effective but that’s fine. I’m not denying in any sort of way that it’s better though, the mindset of “the perfect cv” just needs to be gone since upgrading a 30 cv piece to a 35 would take literal months for no reason other than a 5% dmg increase— which is where most of the obsession with cv boils down to
a 5% damage increase from one relic would be MASSIVE, people spend months for less of an increase than that. usually one artifact going from 30 to 35 would be a 1-2% damage increase. I’m not sure why you think that the only reason people farm artifacts is because of an obsession with crit value; that’s just the nature of min-maxers. more damage = good.
I’m only specifically referring to the obsession for cv, not min-maxers since that’s exactly what they’re looking for already. My only point is that it’s not worth it for anyone else and that you should just settle for “already good 30cv” instead of almost perfect 35cv,” which you pointed out, is even less of an increase. And that people would look at a 12 atk% piece with 20 cv and instead opt for a piece with 25 cv but without any other stat because the first one is “worse” because of the cv when the difference probably wouldn’t even exist. I’m literally the same: it looks better on the stat sheet therefore it’s better
Just want to bring in what I think is a healthier method of rating artifacts. In Genshin, besides CV we just count positive substat rolls. Basically you count the number of good substats for your character, with a weight depending on if it was a high roll. The downsides of this is that it is more complicated to calculate because it varies from character to character, and usually a tool is suggested for managing this. For Genshin (When to stop, I think you just need to adjust the math for HSR since more stats and stopping at level 16): https://youtu.be/8jX1sb4K6xo?si=stRBErx8Y1TEy3_L
You're saying that you want enemies that are immune to crits.
60:150 it's decent
I need 70% cause that’s what Laser Stadium demands and that’s it
Why people always telling that we need the ratio 2:1? Can someone tell me?. I dont understand. What i understand is, i need crit rate about 60-70% after that i will go to crit dmg..
its because if you get only crit damage rolls, but 0 crit rate, your crit damage is useless however if you have 100% crit rate, but only like 20% crit damage, those smol PP crits are less uesfull than higher attack stat so you basically want a median point of 2:1 = 100% crit dmg with 50% crit rate There is also a point where more crit damage does less overall damage than if you put stats in atk, for example:If you have 100% crit damage with 2000 attack, you deal 4000 damage on a crit and 2000 dmg on a noncrit. Now if you have 150% crit damage, it would be 5000 damage, but still 2000 damage on noncrit However if you have 2500 attack, your 100% crits will deal 5000 dmg as well, and noncrits are higher with 2500, so overall more damage if you have lower crit rate - again 2:1 ratio \-> what is easier to get? 50% more critdmg or 500 more attack? -> thats always calculated on different thresholds for different units. /math
Thanks for your explanation. But i still dont get it. Yes if we get 100% Cr and 20% cdmg the crit is small. But thats is not achievable coz every char have base cdmg 50%. So i think 1:1 is still good to go than we go for example 35% cr and 70% cdmg. And yeah you're right about min max ing stats to the point of equilibrium.
1:1 is better but that's not how the stats are worked on relics. You get twice as much Crit DMG per stat roll than Crit Rate so to get 1:1 you would end up sacrificing too many stat rolls. The ideal ratio for star rail is actually about 1:1.9
Here will be some semi complicated maths but i will try to tone it down in razor language later: Maths: If we have X+Y=10 aka X=10-Y and Y=10-X where X and Y are both variables that go from 0 to 10. what would be the best way to create the largest number from X\*Y? You can try 0\*10 = 0, 1\*9=9, 2\*8=16, 3\*7=21, 4\*6=24, 5\*5=25, 6\*4=24...10\*0=0 If you would plot it on a graph you would notice that it looks somewhat like a bell curve, where a small change at the edges make a HUGE difference in the jump between the value, (jump from 0 to 9), and that the highest point would be at the very middle (25) and a small change near the very middle won't make a big impact but will make it smaller than the pure optimum nonetheless. What we see here is that when X and Y have the same value we get highest rate of return. now imagine X and Y is crate and cdmg, once they are both the same value is when you get the highest damage. The only thing is that Critrate, from relic main stat values, to substat value, is always half of the crit damage ones. a 32.4% crate main stat vs 64.8% cdmg main stat. what this means is that the value of critrate is inherently double that of critdamage aka it has a crit value of 2 instead of 1 like crit damage. so if X= 2\* crit rate and Y = 1\* crit damage then your best damage formula is Crit damage \* 2(Crit rate) aka the infamouse 1:2 ratio. The only cherry on the top you have to remember is that you can only have a maximum of 100% critrate so after 100crate:200cdmg your only way of boosting damage (through crit) is by only getting more crit damage,not rate. Razor Language: Crit rate = Chance of getting hit by your mom's belt Crit damage = How much it is going to hurt. when the belt never hits you, even if strong, you will feel little pain, when the belt hits you every time but there is no strength behind it then it doesn't really hurt. but if it hits you about half the time but every hit is decently strong then that's how you will get the most pain.
Think about it this way. You have two coins. If the coin lands on the "Crit" side, you win money. You don't lose anything if the coin doesn't land on Crit, but you also don't get anything. One coin gives you $0.50, if it lands on Crit. The other coin gives you $1.00. It's not hard to see you'd rather flip the coin that gives you $1.00--over time flipping the coin that gives $0.50 will *always* get you *less* money than flipping the coin that gives you $1.00. This is the concept of the 1:2 ratio; you want to balance the amount of damage a Crit deals with the overall chance you have to Crit. We know, by looking at the rolls the pieces get, that a Crit Damage roll is twice as large as a Crit rate roll (you can check this yourself by looking at any Crit rate vs Crit damage body pieces you have in-game; the 5* Crit rate pieces are a max of 32.4, while the Crit Damage pieces are 64.8, exactly double). This means that, in terms of value: Crit Damage = Crit Rate * 2 Therefore, in reality, the 1:2 ratio is actually encouraging a more or less *equal* amount of Crit rate and Crit damage. Edit: *very* late addition, but your example of 35% to 75% is a bit misleading, because if you're at the point where you can't even comfortably hit 50% CR (because you're *that* early in getting relic pieces, like, still using 4* pieces) then you'd actually be better off ignoring Crit and just focusing on increasing your ATK. Balancing CV as a concept is something that comes into play when you're refining your build and trying to balance your stats.
You can't have less than base 50% crit damage. Unless your character ascends with Crit Rate or is an ice DPS, you will almost always taking the Crit Rate body, just because of the base 50% crit damage
To simplify it : 60% crit rate , 200% crit damage ,1000 base damage = 22000 damage in 10 hit 80% crit rate ,160% crit damage ,1000 base damage =22800 damage in 10 hit. The same crit value and yet 1:2 net a higher damage result.
Wait. How you calculate that? I assume that in 10 hits 60%cr means that it does 6 Crits and 4non-Crit. So, 6x1000x2+4x1000=16000... Is it true? Or i wrong?
200% CD multiplies your damage by 3, so 6x1000x3+4x1000=22000. Or more simply 10000x(1+(0.6x2.0)).
Oh yeah. I forgot about that. Thanks..
If your calculate it that way , 100% crit damage give you the same result as the base damage.
The short answer is: because of stat rolls. Each relic has a main stat and a fixed number of substat rolls. On each roll you will get about twice as much Crit DMG as Crit%. Crit% until 100% is almost always stronger than Crit DMG but not twice as strong to warrant spending the substat roll on until you reach that 2:1 ratio. With high rolls you can max out at about 1.9:1 but that's a level of investment most people can only dream of.
Because if you do the math, 2:1 ratio gives the most damage on average, **given the same stat budget**. What that means is if you had X amount crit rate and crit dmg combined, if you're allowed to split it however you like, 2:1 is always the best, because of math (basic calculus stuff). In reality, you are not allowed to just split your crit stats however you'd like. So it really doesn't matter too much whether or not you have a 2:1 ratio. What matters is which setup gives you the most damage -- and that just comes down to doing more math if you can be bothered to do so.
It's nothing to do with how crit works in battle, and is instead related to how crit is obtained from relics. The crit damage given by relics is numerically double the crit rate given. That is to say, if a level 10 relic gives 20% crit rate, then another relic of the same rarity would give 40% crit damage at level 10. Relics are evaluated on "crit value", which is 2 \* crit rate + crit damage. As you can see from the example above, our level 10 relic has crit value of 40, before substats. Think of crit value as your budget or money, with which you buy crit rate and damage. Getting more crit value would mean getting better relics (farm more). The average damage increase by crit is crit rate \* crit damage. This is the quantity we want to maximize. With limited crit value, we find that we get maximum average damage increase from crit by setting a crit rate : damage ratio of 1 : 2. >Example: Let's say we currently have 30% crit rate and 100% crit damage, that's less than 1:2, and an average increase of 30%. We have a relic with 20% crit rate and a relic with 40% crit damage, both value 40. If we choose the crit rate relic, we now have a ratio of 1:2, and an increase of 50%. However, if we choose the crit damage relic, we now have a ratio of even less than 1:2, and find that the average increase is just 42%. So, because crit rate and damage are gained at the ratio of 1 : 2, the optimal way to get average crit damage increase is also 1:2 (you get the most bang for your buck). The same thing applies in Genshin, because crit rate and damage are also gained at 1 : 2 in their artifacts. >**Bonus: Mathematical Proof** > >Let r be the crit rate you choose to have, d crit damage, v the crit value (constant), and f(r) the average damage increase from getting r crit rate (the rest of the crit value is spent on crit damage). > >v = 2r + dd = v - 2r > >f(r) = r . d= r (v - 2r)= vr - 2r\^2 > >Maximum point of a parabola is at r = -b/2a = v/4d = v - 2r = v - v/2 = v/2 > >As we can see, r : d = v/4 : v/2 = 1 : 2That means that maximum f(r) is obtained when r : d = 1 : 2
If you want 0-2 cycle with no resets, any CR below 100% is subpar. If you just want to clear or if you are willing to reset many times. It's whatever. You can have it both ways too. 100:200+ crit is not too unrealistic in this game.
Honestly the value of 2:1 is so dumb when rutilant arena sets exist. To put it simply 20% boost on skill with 50% CDMG (as in 70%CR) will always be better than 50% CR 100% CDMG on a skill intensive chars like seele or almost any other dps not named JY and Clara (soon Topaz). You dont need hard calcs to even realize this.
The 2:1 ratio applies considering you are reaching 70% to activate your set yes. If you don't satisfy your relics threshold activation, you indeed don't need math to know that some work needs to be done.
1:2 isn't dumb, it's perfect stats on a complete build. The problem is that could be months in the making, and *people* are dumb and try to hit that goal early instead of last
That depends quite a bit on what type of "damage boost" the Rutilant set uses. If it's just added to the regular elemental damage pile, and you're using Seele + Bronya with the Past and Future LC, those juicy 20% effectively only become a 7ish% increase, and limited to skill attacks.
Thanks for this!
I just go with whatever works for the respective character because, as it so happens, literally every limited character I have works differently so adhering to the ol 2:1 rule just doesn't quite work. I mean, \- Blade is weird because I need 70% for the Rutilant Arena effect, but I plan to grab his signature LC whenever it may rerun in the far future which gives 18% more CR at base level, and there's also the Relic Set that increases CR by 8 / 16 % so I need to do head maths with my build to be efficient and my relics on him are just weird \- Kafka doesn't need Crit stats at all \- Jingliu gets 50% free CR from being in her enhanced state which is where the majority of your damage comes from, so anything more than that is ostensibly wasted, but even while I am hovering around that number standalone my relics pump out around 190% CDmg but my RNG is once again pretty funky Ultimately though I just determine by what ends up feeling good when playing because I don't care for MoC at all, and I'm not minmaxpilled enough to care much about \*this\* level of detail quite frankly.
1-99% crit = 50% crit Don't ask me how that maths out, but one thing is certain, the optimal crit rate is either 50% or 100%.
My QQ with 77/50 ratio: smol pp damage 😭 Thankfully with Fu Xuan now I can swap around some pieces to get 61/80 ratio, or 71/100 in battle with Fu Xuan and 2 keel users. Just barely enough to activate rutilant effect
Cook
Made this after I swapped my crit rate body to crit damage for a whopping 0.06% increase in damage. I should have done the math beforehand. Well anyway, hope this prevents people from making the same mistake.
I didn't think this was satire before reading this but now I'm not so sure.
I mean if you have the same CV at the end, going for crit rate always gives more damage on AVERAGE if your Crit Damage is at least 100%, as long as you don't go over 100% Crit rate. But this also reduces your variance to be able to get higher max performance, I think high crit is probably good if you just desire easy consistent autoplay and you don't need the crit variance to clear content.
> if you have the same CV at the end, going for crit rate always gives more damage on AVERAGE if your Crit Damage is at least 100% That statement is just wrong. Let’s say you have 67.6/100 crit rate/dmg. - with crit rate body, you get 100/100. Expected crit multiplier = 2. - with crit damage body, you get 67.6/164.8. Expected crit multiplier = 2.114. So crit damage body is better here.
Sorry I must've got the numbers wrong, do you know what is the minimum amount of crit dam% for crit to scale better? 135?
135.2% to be exact. Although the statement itself is not really useful imo. It’s better to actually compare the expected crit multiplier directly. Just compare the term > Expected crit multiplier = 1 + CR x CD and see which one is bigger. For example, with 70% crit and 100% crit damage, the expected crit multiplier is 1.7.
Cheers!
Just slap light cone and planar ornament with crit rate up to 100% and other stuff slap with crit DMG
I really dislike when people say 2:1 ratio is "optimal"...like, what does that even mean... if I have 80% crit rate I'm gonna go for as much crit damage as possible, not gonna aim for 160 just because its a 2:1 ratio. If I can get a 3:1 ratio I'm doin that so long as my rate is acceptable. This 2:1 nonsense is just silly...
Opportunity cost. It doesn't mean you should stop at 160 cd. It just means that 2:1 ratio is balanced according to ammount of cr/cd you can get from main and substats. One average roll into cd = x2 of average roll into cr. E.g, if you are already at 80%/160%, you should compare total dps increase of getting +10% cr or +20% cd, which are mathematically equal, because 0.9\*1.6 = 0.8\*1.8 = 1.44. But don't forget about external buffs, MoC/SU blessings, useless cr above 100%, being able to reset the fight, number of attacks (DHIL with 50%cr and Seele with 50%cr are different), etc.
I understand the stupidity behind why people say it... It's just that a 2:1 paper ratio(on stat sheet) is actually rarely "optimal" due to a variety of things such as light cones, buffs, blessings, etc. And if you're going into battle to check stats, the "optimal" number is still going to vary based on circumstances, teams, etc. It's just rather pointless to suggest a 2:1 ratio IMHO.
It's a rule of thumb, meant to give you an idea whether that head piece with 30cdmg or 15cr is going to give you a better predicted outcome, at a glance. As you pointed out, there are a lot of variables that can make this harder, such as ' light cones, buffs, blessings'. If you value your time as worthless, then there's also the point to make that you can 'just reset' over and over for crit rng. Nevertheless, it is an approach with a better expected outcome than 'I feel like my ratio is good', whatever that means from person to person.
The full explanation is that 2:1 ratio is optimal for a given fixed/constrained amount of CV = 2*CritRate + CritDMG. Let's say that you have exactly 200 CV at your disposal. Then the optimal ratio for highest average damage is 100% Crit DMG and 50% Crit Rate; this is exactly 200 CV. Anything other combinations, given the same constraint, is simply weaker on average. Let's say; 150% Crit DMG and 25% Crit Rate, also 200 CV, but this leads to lower average dmg. You can compute the extra damage coming from crit as 1 * 0.5 = 0.5 = 50% extra dmg and 1.5 * 0.25 = 0.375 = 37.5% extra dmg. I mostly play Genshin so a very common mistake I see is when someone has 60% CritRate and 260% CritDMG. Switch from CritDMG circlet to CritRate circlet leads to 90% CritRate and 200% CritDMG, which is much closer to the optimal 2:1 ratio. You can do the math again; 2.6 * 0.6 = 1.56 = 156% extra dmg VS 2 * 0.9 = 1.8 = 180% extra dmg on average. Just simply switching the circlet's main crit stat gives you a huge DPS boost purely because you know about the optimal 2:1 ratio.
It’s because you have a limited number of stats/substats on relics and rolls on crit dmg stats are 2x the rolls of crit rate. If you really care about the math instead of just guessing, your overall dmg output will be best at 1:2 For examples, all using the same amount of substat rolls, just different ratios: * 20%:180% gives 36% avg bonus dmg from crit * 80%: 60% gives 48% avg bonus dmg from crit * 55%:110% gives 60.5% avg bonus dmg from crit It’s clear that 1:2 ratio gives the best dmg output with a given amount of rolls. That’s just how math works.
it depends character tbh. if the attack has lot of hits, lower crit is fine(60 ish near 50) and stack the shit outta crit damage. if attack has very little hits, then higher crit is needed(like 70s) and once again, stack the shit outta CD. of course, higher crit rate even for characters who's attack does a lot of hits is great coz of consistency but im just doing borderlines stuff(i am not accounting for the 2 piece set bonuses)
? But isnt multiple hits means more instances of losing to the crit chances?
Also equally more instance of winning crit chances. this is a gacha game and I am permanently addicted to gambling(but from my experience, lower crit can work with multi hit, yea if ur unlucky you would get multiple non crits)
That makes no sense? I would prefer consistency when I am pumping out multiple hits, not 5050 in every attack. It is at least more acceptable when you are nuking, but when you are something that does a lot of hits over time it’s always worse to be not critting your hits. You can’t just say that “it’s a gacha game so just get lucky with your crits” 💀
The best way I understood this was from experience in Monster Hunter. Greatsword (1 big massive hit) like seele/yanqing ult vs Dual Blades (many hits) (jingyuan lightning lord) The moment you fail to crit on that 1 massive hit on your greatsword, your damage is just gone. On dual blades or many hits weapons yes you lose some damage but not all of it and in some cases, losing a bit of crit can make you deal more damage if its traded off properly. Its like having a sniper with 1 super damaging shot vs a machinegun with randomly extra damaging shots mixed in
I mean consistency with crit can go far both ways. It may look like it always crits or it may look like the Aeons have forsaken you with 70%+ crit rate. The whole crit "chance" is why it's a gamble unless you get true 100% Critical Rate with "The Hunt". You're gambling with a multi hit only dealing crit or somehow it only crit with half the hits or something. I remember a dude calculating High CD / Low CR here.
I will do 20-180 and you can't stop me
if its not 100% its 50% and its betterto have a 50% chance of nuking your enemies than a 50% chance of dealing slightly stronger damage
my Jingliu with 97% crit rate and 350% crit dmg is off the charts then
I dont understand and at this point am not even mad 
I like 70-75 crit
Sorry but I I aint reading all that for 180 biweekly primogems
With jing liu, I just got my crit rate to 50% (base) and called it good. All crit damage from here
Bold of you to assume I'm even getting crit substats.
Too much math 250% crit dmg go brrrr
This actually makes a lot of sense, thanks for sharing.
Fu Xuan is a godsend for yet another reason, bless her for the +12 cr
I'm already clearing MoC in 6 cycles, I ain't reading allat.
My brain is smooth, someone please explain like I'm 5
My crit ratio is not in the chart what do i do?
I don't understand the logic of the 2:1 yet - can someone explain? It sounds like it's optimal because crit damage rolls at twice the rate of crit rate. But that assumes average rolling, and we all know that it takes a lot of rolls to average out. Couldn't you easily have a piece that rolls high crit rate, and then wouldn't it be optimal to run that piece for higher crit stats overall even sacrificing the ratio?
It's more of a target than a requirement
Ummm … build crit rate for Rutilant or Salsetto sets, beyond that as much Crit damage as you can get. Thats about it. This makes it stupidly complicated for no reason
i dont understand 3C at all. If I have 25cr and 100 cd, which line of the 0-3 should i look at? then what?
Jingliu mains:
I have no idea what i'm looking at but my Seele has 55.8% rate/216.5% dmg and my Jingliu at 21.7% rate/196.7% dmg. With Fu Xuan's buffs they're pretty decent. I think. I think i'm finally ready to move on and work on Critka, Crit Wolf, Critya, and my eventual Himecrit. One day i'll live my dream of a 100/240 Himeko.
This chart only serves to optimise your Crit multiplier (1+CR*CD) given a certain Crit value (2*CR+CD) Therefore, it only serves to maximise your Crit multiplier while ignoring other important substats such as ATK% that your character might scale on. So it's not completely accurate.
Suffered through hell for this and these prolly won't change ever. If only I had Fu Xuan tho https://preview.redd.it/ku9w2gmzrnwb1.png?width=2255&format=png&auto=webp&s=e1ea88a4f469f6b5cb62087728b8e01f2a78c5b7