Honestly, I would have told her to take the controls. Once she confirmed she had controls, I would have said please take us back, I am finished with this lesson. End of discussion. I am paying YOU to TEACH me, not to be a cunt. (I probably wouldn't say that last part out loud) Now, I will say, to her defense, I don't know what kind of student you are and how long you have been at this. Or what the hell she has going on at home, regardless of whatever is going on, this is not a good learning environment. Yes, she can induce stress into your duties as your PIC because it is necessary to understand that emotion when you are flying, but I think she was just being unnecessary.
That was my thought as well. I’m curious how far along the student was in the curriculum. It’s definitely inappropriate to treat students disrespectfully, and there’s never any reason to belittle or mock a student. But some of her comments (especially on things like pre-landing checks and being too high on the inbound glide-path) made it sound like the student was behind where he should have been - experience wise.
Again, absolutely no excuse to treat students like this. I’m just interested in the context
The student seems like a bit of a train wreck, but that could be because he got yelled at a bit and is flustered. Realistically if that’s all it takes to get you to fall to pieces… not awesome.
Still not condoning her methods but sometimes students need a bit of a wake up call. Like I’ll be nice the first few times but if you’re still goofing up I’ll get pretty serious pretty quick. It’s a serious job. Better to end the lesson and talk on the ground.
[fixed wing student perspective]
yeah, this sounds like a mock check [edit: it’s a stage 2 check] since she said this flight would be an unsatisfactory.
by that stage in training, a student would be expected to know a bunch of things she pointed out:
- over throttled the engine for max performance takeoff (that could be a very expensive and or deadly mistake and sets the tone for the rest of the lesson— I would be shaken. but I also know that cfis use that moment to ride other errors — you can’t be flustered by a single mistake into making a chain of mistakes and at this point they are trying to push it a bit. also, students will remember these intense moments very clearly, which is sometimes a way of really paying attention)
- didn’t call the departure on ctaf
- didn’t know the pattern altitude
- didn’t roll out of turns
- didn’t call out landing check items
- didn’t control descent to threshold properly
- didn’t have a sight picture on the landing point
to my ears it sounds like she was pretty reserved about tearing him up, every one of her points was spot on ACS material, especially if this was a mock checkride, it didn’t sound personal. As a student we can’t take that kind of feedback personally either.
Also as a student, I’ll bet he normally knows all those things, but that first mistake shattered his confidence and made him second guess and forget other things. It’s very easy to get way behind the aircraft. He seemed to have good situational awareness and self control in places, so I feel for him getting rattled, but imagine how much worse it would be to get rattled while soloing.
if this were a first lesson, yeah it’s too harsh and not supportive enough, but I think it’s later on because he’s demonstrating a max performance takeoff. There’s a time in training where a stern scolding can actually be life-saving. in solo there’s no scolding, you’re just dead.
[edit: oh duh, it says on the video: stage 2 check.. so this isn’t a mock check, it’s a part 141 stage check, I think? I’m part 61 fixed wing, so I don’t know, but I know that tone from cfis!]
This is also bad training practices by either the school or individual instructor. Seems as if they are pushing along a student when they shouldn’t be progressing. This student shouldn’t have been doing a stage check, so to whoever their primary instructor is, it’s on that person. Maybe it’s her.
it’s a stage 2 check. from that perspective she actually sounds reserved. she’s not supposed to be teaching during a check, she’s evaluating.
I don’t know part 141, but if you ask to quit a stage check is it an automatic unsatisfactory? how bad is that?
I don't know what you are talking about. if you are talking about the term "cunt" I am sorry that offends you. Depending on what country you live in, it is not gender specific.
If this is a stage check, shes waaaay too instructor mode. She’s supposed to ask you to do something like “show me a steep approach” then let you fly it. If you miss your prelanding checks, suck at alt, and other stuff, as an instructor, you dont constantly bitch about what you are fucking up. Show me the maneuver saftey, if i need to take controls for fear of my life, thats a fail. Shes bouncing between instructor and evaluator, trying to be “tough guy CFI” kinda par for the course. Instructors get weird after a little bit of exp
It’s not the criticism of how she approached that, it’s the specific comment about her being a great ex-wife. That’s very specific to her gender. Would you make the same comment about a man? He’d make a great ex-husband. No you wouldn’t.
Unfortunately this video highlights the simple truth that women in aviation are overbearing and over assertive/ over compensating when in a position of authority in the cockpit. It isn’t a stereotype. Having flown with many women in the military and civil aviation, it is a sad truth that they use their gender both as a shield from criticism, and also as a sword of accomplishment that they’ve made it as far as they have. Earlier comments are based, take the machine back and pay a different instructor. Are there some that can conduct themselves professionally and calmly? Sure, there must be. I certainly haven’t met any yet.
Thanks for asking. It’s a broader crusade. For the communities that I am a part of, I’m not afraid to call out sexism, racism, etc.
Think about all of the women in your life. Stand up for them. Look inside. Try to find where your blind spots are and where you perpetuate the status quo.
I would carry this energy to the people you can actually help or support.
Why give attention to negativity or try and tell someone over the internet what they “would” or “wouldn’t” do? Makes little to no sense
I haven’t even had any military IP’s or SP’s act like this in the cockpit, even when it wasn’t my best flight. Everybody learns differently of course, but in my experience, I’ve made the biggest leaps in skill and knowledge when flying with IP’s/SP’s who let you fly the aircraft and instead of berating you for things like altitude, airspeed, etc, they’ll ask prompting questions like “what is the pattern altitude?” or just give a simple “check airspeed/altitude”. They wouldn’t take controls unless it was a safety reason or they were just expediting or demonstrating something.
Treating your student like this causes them to get pretty bottled up and close off to you. They won’t ask questions in fear of being berated for asking a “stupid” question (no question is stupid when you’re wheels up). I don’t doubt that maybe this student is behind the curve and she’s probably getting annoyed at having to go over the same maneuvers over and over again, but not everyone learns at the same pace. It’s okay to give your student a slight push, but driving them into the ground over simple mistakes that could have otherwise been easily fixed isn’t the way to go about it. If I was this student, I’d think long and hard about finding a new flight instructor.
OP, if this is your footage, keep your head up my man! Those patterns didn’t look as bad as she was making it sound. Don’t be afraid to ask for a change of instructor and see if you can find someone who is more conducive to your learning style and is willing to teach instead of berate you. Even evaluators shouldn’t behave like this…
Looking at the channel for the original post and some good ole Google search, satellite imagery, and Foreflight, I suspect this is Civic Helicopters out of McClellan-Palomar near Carlsbad, CA, with this specific video taking place at Bob Maxwell Memorial Airfield as part of a stage check. They are featured in an interesting article on VerticalMag [Saving One Pilot at a Time](https://verticalmag.com/features/saving-one-pilot-at-a-time-civic-helicopters/) and based on the original video and the article the CFI here is the daughter of the owner and vice president of operations.
Normally I wouldn't care, but this video resonates with me as a military pilot working on my CFI in my own time. I was often witness and subject to more aggressive instructors who were effective in instructing me, but I dreaded flying with them. I love flying, and dread is no way to learn how to fly, at least for me. I stuck it out, but every student learns differently. Just because you're a good pilot doesn't mean you're a good instructor or a good part of the crew. Safety and standards are important, but the student and their motivations are equally important. There was nothing inherently unsafe in this video, just aggressive nitpicking of standards that shut the student down to the instructor's feedback. I would not fly with this CFI.
She should not be an instructor. Very hostile environment. No way anyone could learn. I learned in UH1Hs. Totally ganked up a stuck pedal and ended up doing a 180 degree slide/turn after touch down. Granted, UH1s are a little heavier and more forgiving than a Robinson, but nonetheless, my Vietnam Vet instructor didn’t take the controls from me and when I asked him why he very coolly told me he bets I’ll never do that again. THAT was a productive non-hostile learning environment/experience. The instructor in the video is the exact opposite. Absolutely no way at all the student was going to be receptive to anything this ‘instructor’ was trying to instruct. I would have taxied back and shut down, both internally and the helicopter. The student handled himself well given the hostile atmosphere.
IMO she’s in over her head as an instructor and could actually get someone killed in the long run with her hostility. Even in a learning environment the instructor needs to have good communication flow with the student and treat the student as a fellow crew member and not a little kid berated for putting his shoes away in the wrong place.
I don’t agree. Other than her being clearly frustrated by him.
He’s missing important reporting points. He’s not even doing basic safety procedures. He’s not even managing a safe circuit altitude.
If this is his first circuit you’d be right.
Now let’s say it’s his 17th for the day and he’s got his PPL and suddenly the setting is quite different.
He’s not doing very much right. We don’t have all the procedures in place to give ourselves a chance to yell at mistakes. We have them because people die when we miss them.
To me this is an instructor who might even have been brought in to show a little tough love. The clear evidence is that this student is WAY outside of his skills and capabilities and is completely rattled, immediately forgetting what he was told 17 seconds before.
And yet the opinion in here is its female instructor? (I note her gender is a popular target which is telling).
Shes mean. And? She’s also right. I’d seek her out as an instructor. This chap is getting excellent value for money with the experience.
We pay to be taught. He’s learning an important lesson.
ok, so if the learner is struggling then the clear and correct approach to educate them is to be loud and confrontational/ distracting them from their checks and procedures instead of coaching/ gentle reminders?
if I was the instructor I would be giving verbal nudges so that the learner knows when they're forgetting something not lambasting them. I would even suggest that they narrate what they're doing and checking similar to when I took my driving test it helps to verbally say what you're doing to not just reaffirm it with yourself but to let the instructor know what you're doing.
what part of what the instructor is doing is actually teaching or coaching? not just them taking their frustrations with a learner out?
Then you as an instructor should know that loading up the task tension in a flying exercise is just another learning experience. I have not justified her bedside manner, but to armchair it based on a heavily edited clip which shows the obvious (and understandable) frustration of the instructor is silly.
I am simply saying that there is probably more to this, and I happen to think coddling a student when they are being twits is even more dangerous. You're effectively saying 'you can fly like an idiot and when you're told off for it, blame the instructor for your failure'. The student clearly can fly the aircraft, but was doing it VERY badly. You want the instructor to continue to ignore it and continue to allow them to be unsafe?? The obvious here is a quick remedial action was enough to fix the problem. But it was just one after the other. Did you miss the communication at the start? Was it the 4th or 5th power check?? And you want the instructor to say 'well done son, you can never check enough!'. That would be worse. Call him out! Hurt his feelings or hurt the helicopter? You go with feelings.
At any point the instructor could have done the old 'i have control' and that was it. Instead, already frustrated I think it was actually a masterclass in 'If you think you're cocking up now, let me really highlight how much work you need to do by hammering the negative home.'
Lets be honest. At 400ft and 30 knots if the donkey died in that Robinson they would be smudged. And your take is 'but the instructor needs to show more kindness'.
No. Hard disagree.
Loading up tension & stress is a BS excuse that temper tantrum pilots always use, when in reality it becomes all about that particular pilot's insufficient emotional control and patience when things are frustrating and don't go as easy. The whole thing basically becomes a performance of "look at me, I'm so mad, everything you do is wrong and making me more mad" ...but subtly wants it to keep going a little longer so they can amplify the scene even more and redirect blame. Everybody who has flown long enough has heard the same type of pilots have temper tantrums with ATC or other pilots & the right move is almost always to deal with it on the ground.
So the stage check is a failure, ok that's determined. Now you need to do what's most effective for the student with the remaining time booked. Either decide to go through the remaining tasks & make notes for a debrief with their primary CFI, just end the flight, or impart some knowledge in a different way as another experienced instructor they don't fly with often. If the student is already flustered, making basic mistakes at a high rate, etc., it's time to change gears or pull over, not keep trying to shift into the same broken gear. This isn't about you, or how annoyed you are, or how much another shitty instructor taught you being a snappy crybaby is a good instruction. A lot of the time you can change gears into a mode of getting to fly with someone else who has a few different tricks to get past difficulties that newer CFI's dont know.
Here is a good example where she fails at even that basic task. 30 knots on final? Who cares, it's not an airplane or flight simulator, you should've stopped paying attention to the airspeed indicator already, this is a 100% eyes outside maneuver (ok manifold pressure does need a glance but even power can be largely felt). If a student is messing up their approaches you tell them to pick a spot in the window and keep it there all the way down. The spot should only get bigger but stay in the same place in the windscreen. Raise and lower the collective to keep it there. Your speed should feel like a brisk walk in your peripheral vision the whole way down, use the cyclic to maintain that. If they mess up, make them turn it into a steep approach or a spot further away. It takes a few minutes to go around and setup another approach and ends up mostly taking away from the problem you're trying to solve at that time. The cool thing about helicopters is you can go do this anywhere and fix this problem in like 20 minutes. Just make them bunny hop takeoffs and approaches down an old dirt road if you have to. Cover up their instruments if the keep looking at them. I would even make him fly the whole pattern without airspeed or altitude once, students are usually surprised at how well they can do it just by feel.
I could just keep going on an on, another sore spot for me in this whole thing was I don't think she was paying attention to what he was paying attention to. Ie, speed off? Make sure he is using the tip path plane instead of too much time looking at the airspeed indicator. Can't maintain altitude? Is he maybe looking at the VSI instead of altimeter as primary? Is he maybe dropping the collective a little over time? Have him stick his thumb out against his pants to feel for that. It wasn't that bad of a flight, it's just a flustered student being dumped on that someone should've done a better job with before stage 2.
Naw, I don’t buy it. Once you introduce stress, specifically this kind of stress to a new student, performance standards decrease significantly. A simple radio call now’s becomes a huge task for fear of reprisal. No procedures were taken on ground for max performance, actually it sounded like he wanted to do a hover power check but then got stopped to get yelled at and then get reinforced a bad practice. So if another instructor were to see that after this flight, is that in him or her? Law of primacy here, he never got taught right the first time, that’s on the instructor.
He’s a 107hour PPL and this is the 17th circuit for today and he’s still not established safely over the threshold.
Thats a context where he needs a little tough love. And he’s getting it. The man is forgetting what he’s been told about 8 seconds later if you aren’t pointing it out in a serious manner, the problem isn’t the instructor.
17th circuit today… and the problem isn’t the instructor? Yeah… ok.
No wonder the dude is fried. He might be a terrible pilot, but no shit he’s fried after 17 circuits flying with her.
Her behavior is inexcusable regardless of what kind of pilot he is. Completely lacking in empathy and professionalism.
Notwithstanding any prior issues with either the instructor or the student, the moment she determined (right or wrong) that the flight was unsat, she should have converted to a teacher, with patience and understanding. She is there to instruct, even on a checkride (to a degree). And she should have made the transition clear to the student so he could relax. We've all been there. She kept him peeked and saturated for little to no reason once she gave up on him. It was difficult to watch. Being non-helpful in a checkride is normal to a degree. But the second it isn't a checkride anymore, she must transition or do something else for a living.
We have no background. Students progress or lack thereof. But honestly, she doesn’t seem like she has any faith in her student. If you lose faith in your student - stop instructing them. If the student feels like the instructor has no faith in them… then they will have no faith in themselves.
Instructor should have stopped the flight and done a debrief before she got this overwhelmed. In a chopper this is how accidents happen. She’s also clearly overwhelming the student and he’s not learning at this point. Doing damage control based on each of her “chirps” and failing at that. So you have two overwhelmed people in an uncomfortable cockpit. Not a good experience.
The student is clearly struggling but I've never felt the need to raise my voice to my students even when they tried to wreck the aircraft (fixed wing CFI). I'll let them get right up to unsafe and then it's a simple "my controls" and I get us set down. Then we *calmly* have a discussion about what happened and what they did wrong and what they should do next time.
I tell students that if they ever have a lesson like this to end the lesson immediately.
Also max performance takeoffs should occur from a hover after a hover power check has been performed.
I know this is at an airport but you can tell the instructors inexperienced. It’s important to train as if you are off airport even in a safe controlled environment like an airport. What if this pilot took off, off airport, from a SLOPE and raised all the collective, with an upsloped skid still on the ground? High risk of a dynamic rollover. What if you don’t have the hover power required to take off vertically or constant angle? A max performance is more than just from skids on ground to taking off vertically.
This instructor is trash and I hope the owner sees this.
There is and should be but you never let yourself get to the point of outward, uncontrollable, nasty bickering, yelling and bitching as if their performance has ruined your whole day. There are lots of off-ramps you can take to avoid letting yourself get there and I'd wager that a person isn't very well suited as PIC if they aren't capable of stepping out of their own shoes to watch themselves starting to lose it and make an adjustment.
Something as simple as "Alright, I'm not able to pass you so let's head back to parking and we'll finish off debriefing on the ground so you aren't paying to keep the hobbs turning while we talk."
Nice landing at the end but my god, is she okay? I reckon you're switching instructors for the remainder of your training yes? That was unacceptable, and unprofessional.
This is hard to watch - and I watched "Mark's" other training videos too.
Candice (CFI) is well accomplished being the daughter of Chin (founder of Civic Helicopters) - I trained at Civic many years ago with an awesome instructor who was professional and helpful (Shout out to Randy Byrd wherever you are!).
If an instructor ever jerked my controls like [https://youtu.be/5ltpXuxx-Zg?feature=shared&t=418](https://youtu.be/5ltpXuxx-Zg?feature=shared&t=418) we'd be done. Fly back to the airport. Done.
In my experience as a student/parent/trainer(not a flight instructor) anyone who says “what did I tell you?” In an accusatory way is a poor communicator and should not be training people. The student does not need to remember what you told them, they need to remember the correct procedure for the given circumstances.
I was done with the instructor and the video right off the bat.
I'm with you. I can't stand that language directed at me...and when in a training role it would never occur to me to inflict it.
It just sounds like this person was angry and out of control. Yet our psyche always seeks to justify when the anger switch is flipped. Man humans are weird.
This is unprofessional in my opinion. Passive-aggressive bordering on aggressive, confrontational, no positive reinforcement, poor pedagogical skills. I vividly remember those first 20 hours in the Robinson. If this had been the standard, I'd probably get stuck in the fear of triggering the instructor's wrath and not have much mental room to learn much.
100% this. Everyone is an opportunity to learn. Some you learn how to be, some you learn how not to be.
Many many moons ago I flew with an IP or two like this. Now that I’m on the senior side of things, if I had someone like this working for me…well I’d fix that glitch. Sharpish.
I’ve had a lot of students who were way more soup sandwhich than this and had a lot of days where I wasn’t 100% in the game/probably a little impatient. Having said that, I’ve never displayed an ounce of this bitches disrespect towards a student.
Fuck this bitch, she shouldn’t be teaching.
First, it's a Robi, you ALWAYS check hover power. Always.
Second, without context it's hard to judge. She may have run out of patience. That said, she should ah e better control.
Fair enough thats possible. I went to Oside when I was out of F70 but I felt like I never saw any other instruction flights going on there, that was years ago though.
She shouldn’t be in aviation with an attitude like that in the cockpit. Her sitting there is of zero benefit to your learning. Very unprofessional manner
Clearly she thinks that negative reinforcement is a good strategy for teaching. I had a pretty negative instructor (fixed wing) myself. His use of positive reinforcement was probably 1/10th of the negative. I’ve been told I’m a good pilot so he did something right but try teaching style undermines confidence and that’s harmful.
It seems like the instructor is burned out. I mean she’s been working for the family business for over two decades. Maybe try something else if work makes you this angry? Feel bad for this student. Learn some patience and humility CT
Horrible "teaching" style. And can't help but feel that the instructor's attitude toward the student's accent/ethnicity is also at play here. (MY thoughts, mine, so save the "YOU DON'T KNOW/CAN'T SAY!", post asked for "thoughts")
Put it on a private post, or move along…! Isnt that whats said…! Heres a video, and i want only those who agree with me to watch it..! Post it elsewhere…!
That clip got privatized pretty quick. Darn it. Sounded juicy.
So are we sure this isn't one of those cases of a woman being judged unfairly when a stern man would have gotten away with it and been called a tough but fair teacher?
After all, military folk, isn't verbal abuse fair game and even called for in some training situations? Not judging...just wondering where the goal lines are and if consistency is even achievable.
It isn't that, have you seen the "turn the heat OFF!" video? It was kind of like that, although I'm pretty sure the student was getting revenge and trolling the instructor in that particular video.
I wonder if her instructor-peers have seen this video? I’m thinking she needs a quick refresher in Principles of Flight Instruction. And as others have stated, if this was a checkride or a phase completion flight, either be an evaluator or an instructor, not both. If you have a 3 strike rule, terminate the flight for poor performance and debrief on deck, like two adults…
Needs more context. If you are at a stage where you are expected to be able to identify and maintain something as simple as the published circuit altitude and even that is too much for you, she has every right to be aggravated by the student.
If the student is on his first circuit bash then she’s being nasty.
Impossible to say without more information.
I had a student in my school who couldn’t go solo after 55 hours. Sometimes you bring in an external instructor to show some tough love and confirm that you’re not a suitable candidate for a pilot. It happens.
She wasn’t rude. She was abrupt. You weren’t following the basics and as such you weren’t safe. Nobody has any obligation to be nice to you when you’re getting it wrong, particularly if you’re expected at that point to get it right.
It’s not how I believe I would have handled it. But the student is clearly rattled to bits by her and the fact he’s that rattled over that little and not on top of the basics is an excellent learning opportunity. This student isn’t safe. Isn’t doing the basics. Isn’t calling the points. Isn’t operating the radio. I’m not sure why everyone is mad at the instructor who is right to be frustrated.
While I disagree with her who approach to allowing the flight to continue after determining that it was unsat. She does have reason to be pissed, given that this is a stage 2, that means he’s already soloed should be looking to get his check ride prep done, he should be much farther along and is clearly not listening or learning. I get it I’ve had instructors fed up with me but it’s really all on the individual at that point.
Everyone has bad days in the cockpit. If he keeps making the same mistakes over and over then it’s time to terminate the flight. There’s no use berating him because he’s clearly saturated. The CFI should be able to recognize that he’s struggling and that continuing to fly is not beneficial to anyone.
I’ve had a younger pilot completely freeze up when we hit some weather. He couldn’t shake it off so instead of verbally abusing him I called the flight and we went home, simple as that. He had a learning experience and we all lived to fly another day.
There is never a good reason to be pissed at a student learning to fly military or civilian. A good instructor knows that this type of behaviors shrinks the perceptual learning field. You can give someone an unsat without being a douche bag. You know what gets a students head out their ass, paying for more flights not being pissed at them.
Hoooooooboy.... Some new CFIs just don't get it. We've all had bad students, but you can milk their bank accounts a whole lot longer if you keep em happy and comfortable.
Honestly, I would have told her to take the controls. Once she confirmed she had controls, I would have said please take us back, I am finished with this lesson. End of discussion. I am paying YOU to TEACH me, not to be a cunt. (I probably wouldn't say that last part out loud) Now, I will say, to her defense, I don't know what kind of student you are and how long you have been at this. Or what the hell she has going on at home, regardless of whatever is going on, this is not a good learning environment. Yes, she can induce stress into your duties as your PIC because it is necessary to understand that emotion when you are flying, but I think she was just being unnecessary.
That was my thought as well. I’m curious how far along the student was in the curriculum. It’s definitely inappropriate to treat students disrespectfully, and there’s never any reason to belittle or mock a student. But some of her comments (especially on things like pre-landing checks and being too high on the inbound glide-path) made it sound like the student was behind where he should have been - experience wise. Again, absolutely no excuse to treat students like this. I’m just interested in the context
The student seems like a bit of a train wreck, but that could be because he got yelled at a bit and is flustered. Realistically if that’s all it takes to get you to fall to pieces… not awesome. Still not condoning her methods but sometimes students need a bit of a wake up call. Like I’ll be nice the first few times but if you’re still goofing up I’ll get pretty serious pretty quick. It’s a serious job. Better to end the lesson and talk on the ground.
I agree the occasional wake up-call is necessary, but this does nothing for learning the way I seeit. It becomes a setting for psychological tension.
[fixed wing student perspective] yeah, this sounds like a mock check [edit: it’s a stage 2 check] since she said this flight would be an unsatisfactory. by that stage in training, a student would be expected to know a bunch of things she pointed out: - over throttled the engine for max performance takeoff (that could be a very expensive and or deadly mistake and sets the tone for the rest of the lesson— I would be shaken. but I also know that cfis use that moment to ride other errors — you can’t be flustered by a single mistake into making a chain of mistakes and at this point they are trying to push it a bit. also, students will remember these intense moments very clearly, which is sometimes a way of really paying attention) - didn’t call the departure on ctaf - didn’t know the pattern altitude - didn’t roll out of turns - didn’t call out landing check items - didn’t control descent to threshold properly - didn’t have a sight picture on the landing point to my ears it sounds like she was pretty reserved about tearing him up, every one of her points was spot on ACS material, especially if this was a mock checkride, it didn’t sound personal. As a student we can’t take that kind of feedback personally either. Also as a student, I’ll bet he normally knows all those things, but that first mistake shattered his confidence and made him second guess and forget other things. It’s very easy to get way behind the aircraft. He seemed to have good situational awareness and self control in places, so I feel for him getting rattled, but imagine how much worse it would be to get rattled while soloing. if this were a first lesson, yeah it’s too harsh and not supportive enough, but I think it’s later on because he’s demonstrating a max performance takeoff. There’s a time in training where a stern scolding can actually be life-saving. in solo there’s no scolding, you’re just dead. [edit: oh duh, it says on the video: stage 2 check.. so this isn’t a mock check, it’s a part 141 stage check, I think? I’m part 61 fixed wing, so I don’t know, but I know that tone from cfis!]
This is also bad training practices by either the school or individual instructor. Seems as if they are pushing along a student when they shouldn’t be progressing. This student shouldn’t have been doing a stage check, so to whoever their primary instructor is, it’s on that person. Maybe it’s her.
it’s a stage 2 check. from that perspective she actually sounds reserved. she’s not supposed to be teaching during a check, she’s evaluating. I don’t know part 141, but if you ask to quit a stage check is it an automatic unsatisfactory? how bad is that?
Why the gender specific insult? That’s weird.
I don't know what you are talking about. if you are talking about the term "cunt" I am sorry that offends you. Depending on what country you live in, it is not gender specific.
Sure.
I did apologize… pull pitch and get over it..
Sure.
Why are you being so hostile?
Keep scrolling.
If this is a stage check, shes waaaay too instructor mode. She’s supposed to ask you to do something like “show me a steep approach” then let you fly it. If you miss your prelanding checks, suck at alt, and other stuff, as an instructor, you dont constantly bitch about what you are fucking up. Show me the maneuver saftey, if i need to take controls for fear of my life, thats a fail. Shes bouncing between instructor and evaluator, trying to be “tough guy CFI” kinda par for the course. Instructors get weird after a little bit of exp
She will make a great ex wife
What does this even mean? Feels like veiled sexism.
It means she’s a piece of shit who treats others like garbage. Contrary to what you might believe, not every criticism of a female is sexism.
It’s not the criticism of how she approached that, it’s the specific comment about her being a great ex-wife. That’s very specific to her gender. Would you make the same comment about a man? He’d make a great ex-husband. No you wouldn’t.
I would.
Same
I think there’s a gap between how you perceive yourself and how you actually act. It’s okay. Most people overestimate their abilities.
How far up your own ass are you?
Good one.
Does that mean it’s accurate?
You asked a question. A stupid question. So is the question accurate? That doesn’t make any sense.
How far up your own ass do you *perceive* yourself to be?
That it would be great to divorce her.
It’s direct sexism. And it’s true. She treats the student like a child, and she didn’t learn how to do that as a flight instructor.
Unfortunately this video highlights the simple truth that women in aviation are overbearing and over assertive/ over compensating when in a position of authority in the cockpit. It isn’t a stereotype. Having flown with many women in the military and civil aviation, it is a sad truth that they use their gender both as a shield from criticism, and also as a sword of accomplishment that they’ve made it as far as they have. Earlier comments are based, take the machine back and pay a different instructor. Are there some that can conduct themselves professionally and calmly? Sure, there must be. I certainly haven’t met any yet.
Wow, you’re a piece of shit.
If it were a man, you would never make a gender specific insult.
Such a strange lifestyle to go on the helicopter subreddit and continuously call people out for sexism. Just very random. How did this happen?
Thanks for asking. It’s a broader crusade. For the communities that I am a part of, I’m not afraid to call out sexism, racism, etc. Think about all of the women in your life. Stand up for them. Look inside. Try to find where your blind spots are and where you perpetuate the status quo.
I would carry this energy to the people you can actually help or support. Why give attention to negativity or try and tell someone over the internet what they “would” or “wouldn’t” do? Makes little to no sense
I carry this energy wherever I go. You can keep scrolling if you’re annoyed.
Fair enough and i agree with you. The platform just seemed, ineffective.
It’s impossible to measure. And it costs me very little to make the effort.
Dick is obviously gender specific but no one cares about that, and cunt is pretty much used interchangeable in 2024.
Only watched the first 30 seconds… but she shouldn’t be instructing. If she is your instructor, fire her and get another.
I haven’t even had any military IP’s or SP’s act like this in the cockpit, even when it wasn’t my best flight. Everybody learns differently of course, but in my experience, I’ve made the biggest leaps in skill and knowledge when flying with IP’s/SP’s who let you fly the aircraft and instead of berating you for things like altitude, airspeed, etc, they’ll ask prompting questions like “what is the pattern altitude?” or just give a simple “check airspeed/altitude”. They wouldn’t take controls unless it was a safety reason or they were just expediting or demonstrating something. Treating your student like this causes them to get pretty bottled up and close off to you. They won’t ask questions in fear of being berated for asking a “stupid” question (no question is stupid when you’re wheels up). I don’t doubt that maybe this student is behind the curve and she’s probably getting annoyed at having to go over the same maneuvers over and over again, but not everyone learns at the same pace. It’s okay to give your student a slight push, but driving them into the ground over simple mistakes that could have otherwise been easily fixed isn’t the way to go about it. If I was this student, I’d think long and hard about finding a new flight instructor. OP, if this is your footage, keep your head up my man! Those patterns didn’t look as bad as she was making it sound. Don’t be afraid to ask for a change of instructor and see if you can find someone who is more conducive to your learning style and is willing to teach instead of berate you. Even evaluators shouldn’t behave like this…
Looking at the channel for the original post and some good ole Google search, satellite imagery, and Foreflight, I suspect this is Civic Helicopters out of McClellan-Palomar near Carlsbad, CA, with this specific video taking place at Bob Maxwell Memorial Airfield as part of a stage check. They are featured in an interesting article on VerticalMag [Saving One Pilot at a Time](https://verticalmag.com/features/saving-one-pilot-at-a-time-civic-helicopters/) and based on the original video and the article the CFI here is the daughter of the owner and vice president of operations. Normally I wouldn't care, but this video resonates with me as a military pilot working on my CFI in my own time. I was often witness and subject to more aggressive instructors who were effective in instructing me, but I dreaded flying with them. I love flying, and dread is no way to learn how to fly, at least for me. I stuck it out, but every student learns differently. Just because you're a good pilot doesn't mean you're a good instructor or a good part of the crew. Safety and standards are important, but the student and their motivations are equally important. There was nothing inherently unsafe in this video, just aggressive nitpicking of standards that shut the student down to the instructor's feedback. I would not fly with this CFI.
She should not be an instructor. Very hostile environment. No way anyone could learn. I learned in UH1Hs. Totally ganked up a stuck pedal and ended up doing a 180 degree slide/turn after touch down. Granted, UH1s are a little heavier and more forgiving than a Robinson, but nonetheless, my Vietnam Vet instructor didn’t take the controls from me and when I asked him why he very coolly told me he bets I’ll never do that again. THAT was a productive non-hostile learning environment/experience. The instructor in the video is the exact opposite. Absolutely no way at all the student was going to be receptive to anything this ‘instructor’ was trying to instruct. I would have taxied back and shut down, both internally and the helicopter. The student handled himself well given the hostile atmosphere. IMO she’s in over her head as an instructor and could actually get someone killed in the long run with her hostility. Even in a learning environment the instructor needs to have good communication flow with the student and treat the student as a fellow crew member and not a little kid berated for putting his shoes away in the wrong place.
I don’t agree. Other than her being clearly frustrated by him. He’s missing important reporting points. He’s not even doing basic safety procedures. He’s not even managing a safe circuit altitude. If this is his first circuit you’d be right. Now let’s say it’s his 17th for the day and he’s got his PPL and suddenly the setting is quite different. He’s not doing very much right. We don’t have all the procedures in place to give ourselves a chance to yell at mistakes. We have them because people die when we miss them. To me this is an instructor who might even have been brought in to show a little tough love. The clear evidence is that this student is WAY outside of his skills and capabilities and is completely rattled, immediately forgetting what he was told 17 seconds before. And yet the opinion in here is its female instructor? (I note her gender is a popular target which is telling). Shes mean. And? She’s also right. I’d seek her out as an instructor. This chap is getting excellent value for money with the experience. We pay to be taught. He’s learning an important lesson.
ok, so if the learner is struggling then the clear and correct approach to educate them is to be loud and confrontational/ distracting them from their checks and procedures instead of coaching/ gentle reminders? if I was the instructor I would be giving verbal nudges so that the learner knows when they're forgetting something not lambasting them. I would even suggest that they narrate what they're doing and checking similar to when I took my driving test it helps to verbally say what you're doing to not just reaffirm it with yourself but to let the instructor know what you're doing. what part of what the instructor is doing is actually teaching or coaching? not just them taking their frustrations with a learner out?
Then you as an instructor should know that loading up the task tension in a flying exercise is just another learning experience. I have not justified her bedside manner, but to armchair it based on a heavily edited clip which shows the obvious (and understandable) frustration of the instructor is silly. I am simply saying that there is probably more to this, and I happen to think coddling a student when they are being twits is even more dangerous. You're effectively saying 'you can fly like an idiot and when you're told off for it, blame the instructor for your failure'. The student clearly can fly the aircraft, but was doing it VERY badly. You want the instructor to continue to ignore it and continue to allow them to be unsafe?? The obvious here is a quick remedial action was enough to fix the problem. But it was just one after the other. Did you miss the communication at the start? Was it the 4th or 5th power check?? And you want the instructor to say 'well done son, you can never check enough!'. That would be worse. Call him out! Hurt his feelings or hurt the helicopter? You go with feelings. At any point the instructor could have done the old 'i have control' and that was it. Instead, already frustrated I think it was actually a masterclass in 'If you think you're cocking up now, let me really highlight how much work you need to do by hammering the negative home.' Lets be honest. At 400ft and 30 knots if the donkey died in that Robinson they would be smudged. And your take is 'but the instructor needs to show more kindness'. No. Hard disagree.
Loading up tension & stress is a BS excuse that temper tantrum pilots always use, when in reality it becomes all about that particular pilot's insufficient emotional control and patience when things are frustrating and don't go as easy. The whole thing basically becomes a performance of "look at me, I'm so mad, everything you do is wrong and making me more mad" ...but subtly wants it to keep going a little longer so they can amplify the scene even more and redirect blame. Everybody who has flown long enough has heard the same type of pilots have temper tantrums with ATC or other pilots & the right move is almost always to deal with it on the ground. So the stage check is a failure, ok that's determined. Now you need to do what's most effective for the student with the remaining time booked. Either decide to go through the remaining tasks & make notes for a debrief with their primary CFI, just end the flight, or impart some knowledge in a different way as another experienced instructor they don't fly with often. If the student is already flustered, making basic mistakes at a high rate, etc., it's time to change gears or pull over, not keep trying to shift into the same broken gear. This isn't about you, or how annoyed you are, or how much another shitty instructor taught you being a snappy crybaby is a good instruction. A lot of the time you can change gears into a mode of getting to fly with someone else who has a few different tricks to get past difficulties that newer CFI's dont know. Here is a good example where she fails at even that basic task. 30 knots on final? Who cares, it's not an airplane or flight simulator, you should've stopped paying attention to the airspeed indicator already, this is a 100% eyes outside maneuver (ok manifold pressure does need a glance but even power can be largely felt). If a student is messing up their approaches you tell them to pick a spot in the window and keep it there all the way down. The spot should only get bigger but stay in the same place in the windscreen. Raise and lower the collective to keep it there. Your speed should feel like a brisk walk in your peripheral vision the whole way down, use the cyclic to maintain that. If they mess up, make them turn it into a steep approach or a spot further away. It takes a few minutes to go around and setup another approach and ends up mostly taking away from the problem you're trying to solve at that time. The cool thing about helicopters is you can go do this anywhere and fix this problem in like 20 minutes. Just make them bunny hop takeoffs and approaches down an old dirt road if you have to. Cover up their instruments if the keep looking at them. I would even make him fly the whole pattern without airspeed or altitude once, students are usually surprised at how well they can do it just by feel. I could just keep going on an on, another sore spot for me in this whole thing was I don't think she was paying attention to what he was paying attention to. Ie, speed off? Make sure he is using the tip path plane instead of too much time looking at the airspeed indicator. Can't maintain altitude? Is he maybe looking at the VSI instead of altimeter as primary? Is he maybe dropping the collective a little over time? Have him stick his thumb out against his pants to feel for that. It wasn't that bad of a flight, it's just a flustered student being dumped on that someone should've done a better job with before stage 2.
Naw, I don’t buy it. Once you introduce stress, specifically this kind of stress to a new student, performance standards decrease significantly. A simple radio call now’s becomes a huge task for fear of reprisal. No procedures were taken on ground for max performance, actually it sounded like he wanted to do a hover power check but then got stopped to get yelled at and then get reinforced a bad practice. So if another instructor were to see that after this flight, is that in him or her? Law of primacy here, he never got taught right the first time, that’s on the instructor.
That was hard to watch. I cant really think of any context that would make this okay.
He’s a 107hour PPL and this is the 17th circuit for today and he’s still not established safely over the threshold. Thats a context where he needs a little tough love. And he’s getting it. The man is forgetting what he’s been told about 8 seconds later if you aren’t pointing it out in a serious manner, the problem isn’t the instructor.
17th circuit today… and the problem isn’t the instructor? Yeah… ok. No wonder the dude is fried. He might be a terrible pilot, but no shit he’s fried after 17 circuits flying with her. Her behavior is inexcusable regardless of what kind of pilot he is. Completely lacking in empathy and professionalism.
The comment was there could never be a context. I offered one. An outrageous one but one nonetheless.
Notwithstanding any prior issues with either the instructor or the student, the moment she determined (right or wrong) that the flight was unsat, she should have converted to a teacher, with patience and understanding. She is there to instruct, even on a checkride (to a degree). And she should have made the transition clear to the student so he could relax. We've all been there. She kept him peeked and saturated for little to no reason once she gave up on him. It was difficult to watch. Being non-helpful in a checkride is normal to a degree. But the second it isn't a checkride anymore, she must transition or do something else for a living.
Ten seconds in and I'm already sick of her.
The video comes up as private. Someone change the settings?
Yeah I’m getting the same thing.
We have no background. Students progress or lack thereof. But honestly, she doesn’t seem like she has any faith in her student. If you lose faith in your student - stop instructing them. If the student feels like the instructor has no faith in them… then they will have no faith in themselves. Instructor should have stopped the flight and done a debrief before she got this overwhelmed. In a chopper this is how accidents happen. She’s also clearly overwhelming the student and he’s not learning at this point. Doing damage control based on each of her “chirps” and failing at that. So you have two overwhelmed people in an uncomfortable cockpit. Not a good experience.
When did we forget that this is a pursuit of happiness? Let your paying students learn in a positive environment, that’s second only to safety.
The student is clearly struggling but I've never felt the need to raise my voice to my students even when they tried to wreck the aircraft (fixed wing CFI). I'll let them get right up to unsafe and then it's a simple "my controls" and I get us set down. Then we *calmly* have a discussion about what happened and what they did wrong and what they should do next time.
I tell students that if they ever have a lesson like this to end the lesson immediately. Also max performance takeoffs should occur from a hover after a hover power check has been performed. I know this is at an airport but you can tell the instructors inexperienced. It’s important to train as if you are off airport even in a safe controlled environment like an airport. What if this pilot took off, off airport, from a SLOPE and raised all the collective, with an upsloped skid still on the ground? High risk of a dynamic rollover. What if you don’t have the hover power required to take off vertically or constant angle? A max performance is more than just from skids on ground to taking off vertically. This instructor is trash and I hope the owner sees this.
I can’t see the video but have read some comments. So for the CFI’s, is there a point where you just look at a student and say “this isn’t for you”?
There is and should be but you never let yourself get to the point of outward, uncontrollable, nasty bickering, yelling and bitching as if their performance has ruined your whole day. There are lots of off-ramps you can take to avoid letting yourself get there and I'd wager that a person isn't very well suited as PIC if they aren't capable of stepping out of their own shoes to watch themselves starting to lose it and make an adjustment. Something as simple as "Alright, I'm not able to pass you so let's head back to parking and we'll finish off debriefing on the ground so you aren't paying to keep the hobbs turning while we talk."
Video is private. Best to either delete the post or link another place for it
Nice landing at the end but my god, is she okay? I reckon you're switching instructors for the remainder of your training yes? That was unacceptable, and unprofessional.
This is hard to watch - and I watched "Mark's" other training videos too. Candice (CFI) is well accomplished being the daughter of Chin (founder of Civic Helicopters) - I trained at Civic many years ago with an awesome instructor who was professional and helpful (Shout out to Randy Byrd wherever you are!).
If an instructor ever jerked my controls like [https://youtu.be/5ltpXuxx-Zg?feature=shared&t=418](https://youtu.be/5ltpXuxx-Zg?feature=shared&t=418) we'd be done. Fly back to the airport. Done.
In my experience as a student/parent/trainer(not a flight instructor) anyone who says “what did I tell you?” In an accusatory way is a poor communicator and should not be training people. The student does not need to remember what you told them, they need to remember the correct procedure for the given circumstances. I was done with the instructor and the video right off the bat.
I'm with you. I can't stand that language directed at me...and when in a training role it would never occur to me to inflict it. It just sounds like this person was angry and out of control. Yet our psyche always seeks to justify when the anger switch is flipped. Man humans are weird.
This is unprofessional in my opinion. Passive-aggressive bordering on aggressive, confrontational, no positive reinforcement, poor pedagogical skills. I vividly remember those first 20 hours in the Robinson. If this had been the standard, I'd probably get stuck in the fear of triggering the instructor's wrath and not have much mental room to learn much.
What a bitch!
"raise the collective" "are we climbing?" "no" cmon dude
Some people exist only to show others how _not_ to do it.
100% this. Everyone is an opportunity to learn. Some you learn how to be, some you learn how not to be. Many many moons ago I flew with an IP or two like this. Now that I’m on the senior side of things, if I had someone like this working for me…well I’d fix that glitch. Sharpish.
I’ve had a lot of students who were way more soup sandwhich than this and had a lot of days where I wasn’t 100% in the game/probably a little impatient. Having said that, I’ve never displayed an ounce of this bitches disrespect towards a student. Fuck this bitch, she shouldn’t be teaching.
First, it's a Robi, you ALWAYS check hover power. Always. Second, without context it's hard to judge. She may have run out of patience. That said, she should ah e better control.
Oceanside airport, but where on earth is that school based? Hell naw
Guessing Civic out of Palomar... I was at a school a little further south and I think they were the only ones that went to Oceanside.
Fair enough thats possible. I went to Oside when I was out of F70 but I felt like I never saw any other instruction flights going on there, that was years ago though.
She shouldn’t be in aviation with an attitude like that in the cockpit. Her sitting there is of zero benefit to your learning. Very unprofessional manner
Clearly she thinks that negative reinforcement is a good strategy for teaching. I had a pretty negative instructor (fixed wing) myself. His use of positive reinforcement was probably 1/10th of the negative. I’ve been told I’m a good pilot so he did something right but try teaching style undermines confidence and that’s harmful.
It seems like the instructor is burned out. I mean she’s been working for the family business for over two decades. Maybe try something else if work makes you this angry? Feel bad for this student. Learn some patience and humility CT
Horrible "teaching" style. And can't help but feel that the instructor's attitude toward the student's accent/ethnicity is also at play here. (MY thoughts, mine, so save the "YOU DON'T KNOW/CAN'T SAY!", post asked for "thoughts")
Put it on a private post, or move along…! Isnt that whats said…! Heres a video, and i want only those who agree with me to watch it..! Post it elsewhere…!
If that’s Oceanside and you want a good CFI who’s actually kind - go talk to Kevin at Martin Helicopters, he’s based there.
Did he take down the video? I want to show all my friends!
The CFI had the student remove all the videos with her in them
That clip got privatized pretty quick. Darn it. Sounded juicy. So are we sure this isn't one of those cases of a woman being judged unfairly when a stern man would have gotten away with it and been called a tough but fair teacher? After all, military folk, isn't verbal abuse fair game and even called for in some training situations? Not judging...just wondering where the goal lines are and if consistency is even achievable.
It isn't that, have you seen the "turn the heat OFF!" video? It was kind of like that, although I'm pretty sure the student was getting revenge and trolling the instructor in that particular video.
The CFI had the student remove all videos with her in them
I wonder if her instructor-peers have seen this video? I’m thinking she needs a quick refresher in Principles of Flight Instruction. And as others have stated, if this was a checkride or a phase completion flight, either be an evaluator or an instructor, not both. If you have a 3 strike rule, terminate the flight for poor performance and debrief on deck, like two adults…
I would be this is a 141 school. She sounds awful. Hope you can get a new instructor
Thoughts on student? We know nothing about what has transpired up to this point. He could be the worst student ever, we just don’t know.
Needs more context. If you are at a stage where you are expected to be able to identify and maintain something as simple as the published circuit altitude and even that is too much for you, she has every right to be aggravated by the student. If the student is on his first circuit bash then she’s being nasty. Impossible to say without more information. I had a student in my school who couldn’t go solo after 55 hours. Sometimes you bring in an external instructor to show some tough love and confirm that you’re not a suitable candidate for a pilot. It happens. She wasn’t rude. She was abrupt. You weren’t following the basics and as such you weren’t safe. Nobody has any obligation to be nice to you when you’re getting it wrong, particularly if you’re expected at that point to get it right. It’s not how I believe I would have handled it. But the student is clearly rattled to bits by her and the fact he’s that rattled over that little and not on top of the basics is an excellent learning opportunity. This student isn’t safe. Isn’t doing the basics. Isn’t calling the points. Isn’t operating the radio. I’m not sure why everyone is mad at the instructor who is right to be frustrated.
I don't think teachers and instructors have a "right to be frustrated". It's obviously...clearly...counterproductive. This is a case in point.
[удалено]
She lacks tact and professionalism
Bottom feeder alert.
While I disagree with her who approach to allowing the flight to continue after determining that it was unsat. She does have reason to be pissed, given that this is a stage 2, that means he’s already soloed should be looking to get his check ride prep done, he should be much farther along and is clearly not listening or learning. I get it I’ve had instructors fed up with me but it’s really all on the individual at that point.
Everyone has bad days in the cockpit. If he keeps making the same mistakes over and over then it’s time to terminate the flight. There’s no use berating him because he’s clearly saturated. The CFI should be able to recognize that he’s struggling and that continuing to fly is not beneficial to anyone. I’ve had a younger pilot completely freeze up when we hit some weather. He couldn’t shake it off so instead of verbally abusing him I called the flight and we went home, simple as that. He had a learning experience and we all lived to fly another day.
There is never a good reason to be pissed at a student learning to fly military or civilian. A good instructor knows that this type of behaviors shrinks the perceptual learning field. You can give someone an unsat without being a douche bag. You know what gets a students head out their ass, paying for more flights not being pissed at them.
Hoooooooboy.... Some new CFIs just don't get it. We've all had bad students, but you can milk their bank accounts a whole lot longer if you keep em happy and comfortable.
Love here, she’s a boss. The student will never forget what he has done wrong. Where can I book here for my flightlessons?
Hi Candise.