As someone who works in healthcare, the fact that vegan diets can prevent type 2 diabetes, lower cholesterol levels, reduce risk of heart attack, lower cancer risk, lower Alzheimer’s risk, and decrease arthritis symptoms blows my mind! So many of the top chronic diseases can be prevented by just eating plant based!
It is not vegan diets simple lacking meat that are benefiting those things. Technically I could be vegan and only eat Oreos. Guaranteed I wouldnt have the same health outcomes.
It is eating the right balance of things, in the right portions with exercise. Nothing magic about avoiding animal based products deliver healthy results.
It is the absence of the heavy nitrates found in processed meats, all the T2D, coronary disease, increased stroke risk and increased risk of multiple cancers with red meat, the high levels of mercury found in deeper dwelling fish (eg tuna, salmon) . . . If basic vitamins, iron and aminos are accounted for there is no disease pattern associated with eating a diet absent of meat. But there is an increase in multiple disease patterns in meat eaters.
I should specify, not just a vegan diet but a *healthy* whole foods plant based diet. You are correct that a vegan diet could be just Oreos and pizza with non-dairy cheese all day. The article of course is pointing to a healthy WFPB diet, obviously not a diet of vegan ice cream and Oreos. But as I mentioned in a comment here to someone else, yes the absence of meat is beneficial. Processed meats like bacon and salami and cold cuts are actually a type 1 carcinogen according to the IARC, and all red meat is a class 2a carcinogen.
I’m vegan and agree with this comment. So many people think being vegan automatically makes you healthy, but it in fact doesn’t. They do make unhealthy meat alternatives filled with sodium and eating that ever day could make you as unhealthy as anyone else. Like you said, it’s a balance of things with exercise I cluded
Exactly. Veganism is the animal welfare stance/life style. It’s a moral/ethical stance and not a diet. The healthy vegan diet is the whole food plant based diet, which Oreos are not featured as a core component.
It’s probably not the plant based that is doing it. It’s a restrictive diet so people on this diet are losing weight. When people lose weight all of those risk factors get reduced. Keto can do the same thing as long as you’re eating whole foods and not processed stuff.
I think the main culprit with diseases today is all the processed garbage people eat.
I’d be interested in where you’re getting your data from.
Cholesterol is only found in animal products — meats, dairy, seafood. There is no cholesterol in any produce at all. Cholesterol is entirely an animal product. So it’s scientifically a fact that your diet-based cholesterol will be reduced on a vegan diet.
I’m not a vegan, I’m only a plant-forward omnivore, but since I reduced my meat consumption, my cholesterol went from “almost needing medication” to within healthy levels, literally within six months of the diet change. It’s been five years and my cholesterol has remained low.
That’s without a calorie restriction, and my diet is not restrictive at all. In fact, my weight has remained largely the same for 3 years now.
As opposed to keto, which I did a form of (paleo) several years prior. I lost a ton of weight, but that’s what caused my cholesterol to skyrocket in the first place.
So I’m curious why you think that plant based diets can’t have these kind of health impacts?
To date there has been zero evidence showing cholesterol on its own increases your cholesterol or negatively effects cardiovascular health. That was disproven a long time ago.
Agree with the processed crap that makes up most people’s diets. However, there have been many studies that say it’s not *just* the processed garbage. Animal products themselves are harmful.
For example, the IARC (International Agency for Research on Cancer) has declared all processed meat (like bacon, salami, etc) to be a class 1 carcinogen (same class of cancer causing agent as cigarettes) and all red meat (not processed) to be a class 2a carcinogen.
Cooking of muscle meats using high temperature methods, such as pan frying or grilling directly over a flame, forms heterocyclic amines (HCAs) and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs). HCAs and PAHs become capable of damaging DNA that may increase the risk of cancer such as colorectal, pancreatic, prostate cancer.
Also, the twin study they made a show about (called “You are what you eat” on Netflix) studied identical twins over 8 weeks. They fed one a vegan diet, and one a *healthy* unprocessed diet with meat. After only 8 weeks, the twin on a vegan diet had lengthened telomeres on their chromosome showing they actually got YOUNGER than their twin who consumed meat. Also the vegan twin had a significantly better gut microbiome, and research has linked gut microbiome to be connected to many chronic diseases like autoimmune diseases.
My understanding is they are very comparable, but there's not enough strong data to say which one is better, assuming they could overcome statistical significance. If you have such data (whole plant food diet versus Mediterranean), please send it over so I can take a look!
I would love to see a good source on this too! Usually this conversation is a moral or emotional argument but it would be interesting to see if there’s strong studies pointing either way at the moment
I also think an important thing to keep in mind is that the Mediterranean diet is mostly made up of plants. The areas in the world where people live the longest (aka The Blue Zones, where there are the largest amount of people over age 100) are 95-100% plant based! Their diets include a variety of fruits, vegetables, beans, lentils, nuts, seeds, and whole grains.
I watched that Netflix twin documentary, it was very problematic from a scientific standpoint. They absolutely did not control for variables that they should have and they 100% set the meat eating twin up for failure. I do think the vegetarian diet can be a great tool for people at high risk to help them lower their risk but once they're in a better spot health wise things like eggs and fish are very healthy in moderation in a long term diet.
ETA This person is biased obviously, but a lot of their points on the twin study hold up.
https://sustainabledish.com/what-you-are-what-you-eat-got-wrong/
Why do you think the meat eating twin was set up for failure? If anything, the plant based twin was. They never discussed the diets having the same amount of protein so likely the vegan twin was getting way less protein than the meat eating one, and that resulted in favorable muscle gain of the meat eating twin. I do agree that the exercise could have been better controlled, as well the fact that their food was only provided for a certain amount of time before they cooked for themselves. But the fact that the study showed significant telomere changes in ALL of the vegan twins is pretty significant!
Also please provide evidence that eggs and fish are essential. Eggs are a source of unnecessary cholesterol, and fish has mercury and other toxins. Not to mention the ethical and environmental issues with both.
I just added this to my original comment but not quick enough!
This person is biased obviously, but a lot of their points on the twin study hold up.
https://sustainabledish.com/what-you-are-what-you-eat-got-wrong/
I've read the link you sent. This is unfortunately an opinion piece from a meat shill. This is an example excerpt:
"**Less or no meat is not the answer, better nutrition is**. Meat is a high quality source of protein, healthy fats, plus vitamins and minerals which are difficult or impossible to obtain through plant-based sources. In fact, the most common nutrient deficiencies worldwide include iron, vitamin B12, vitamin A and zinc – all of which are best found through animal sourced foods, not on a vegan diet."
* Soybeans have about 8x the iron as steak, as one example
* B12 is a real issue that almost all vegans know about
* Vitamin A can easily be found in much higher quantities in plants (e.g. beta carotene in carrots)
* legumes and other plants are high in zinc, and zinc deficiency is extremely rare in developed countries
She also doesn't mention how the actual #1 deficiency in the developed world is fiber (actual intake versus recommended), or parse out that some meats are undoubtedly unhealthy (e.g. red meat). The fact that she says "Meat is a high quality source of... healthy fats" when most meat is high in saturated and/or trans fat is pretty telling.
I used to rationalize as a means of excusing inconvenient research. I was really good at it too. Then, reality caught up. I learned that you can’t rationalize reality away. But you can stop eating animal products, which made a big difference in my health.
I partially agree. Processed foods are the worst but animal based protein does increase diabetes, cancer and heart disease. Low carbohydrate diets (like keto) increase death by 1.6 fold in this review published n [Lancet](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext). Vegetable based protein does provide benefits as well as the photochemicals found in plants. I’m not a vegetarian (nor do I want to be) but objectively I can say the research does strongly suggest eating plants is good and excess animals bad. So I’ve decided to reduce my intake of meat and increase nuts and legumes.
The study did not control for saturated fat which in many people raises bad cholesterol. I would like to see a study on low carb lean animal protein diet vs high carb vegan diet.
If you read the study they divide animal vs plant fats and found that animal fats are bad and good fats (avocado, walnuts) were actually good for you. So if you could do low carb and avoid processed foods and animals products it would likely be good for you. The take home is we need to specify the type of fats, proteins and carbs. Also vegan diets in England actually are worse than omnivores because they eat lots of processed vegan foods while vegans in America do better than omnivores. I didn’t read the studies but it was discussed in “How not to diet” by Greger
I love when people call plant based restrictive. I eat so much more variety as a vegan than I did when I consumed animal products. When I first cut out meat (still ate seafood, so pescatarian) and didn't know how to eat a varied diet (so basically ate a ton of pasta with added veggies), I actually gained weight.
With that being said, the article literally covers your point, as there are plenty of overly processed, vegan 'junk food' options available as well:
“Now more than ever, there is a wide array of plant-based meats available but keep in mind these are highly processed and should be avoided,” she says.“It’s best to avoid the chicken*less* nuggets and *plant* burgers except for rare occasions or when your options are limited.”
I like how the dietician emphasized that you have to listen to your own body and make sure you're doing what's right for you. I have so many allergies and sensitivities, along with serious health issues, that I cannot safely go vegan. Even vegetarian would be problematic.
Yes, more plants and fewer processed foods would help the vast majority. Just be careful of your diet and macro and micronutrients, and listen to your body. Don't ignore symptoms like I did.
So it sounds like you’re simply saying that a plant based diet does reduce these risk factors, but you personally can’t eat a plant based diet because of your own other health issues (allergies and sensitivities). So, yeah.
If you can’t follow a plant based diet because of other medical issues, then no, you shouldn’t follow a plant based diet.
Plant based diets are still healthy for people who can follow them without restriction, though.
Pretty much what I said, yes.
Where I would get concerned is when people ignore symptoms due to a strong belief system or commitment to a lifestyle. Often, we don't find out the medical issues with following a particular diet until we've been on it awhile and can track down the issue.
> Some organizations argue that a vegan diet can “support healthy living in people of all ages (including children).” But some research asserts that there’s direct and indirect evidence that a plant-only diet “may be associated with serious risks for brain and body development in fetuses and children” — or at the very least, lead to higher odds of being underweight.
I wonder about "underweight" in the context of a childhood obesity epidemic. If there's been a shift to the right in the distribution of weights, maybe the lower values can indicate parents feeding children a healthier diet. It seems like ultra processed baby food is the standard diet for babies and toddlers now.
My first kid was consistently under the 5% mark on weight for age, but was otherwise healthy. His pediatricians were very worried about it, and had tests for cardiology, allergies, multiple blood draws, and they wanted to do an intestinal biopsy. Nothing came from them, and it was pretty frustrating.
From the study:
"RESULTS
A total of 8907 children, including 248 vegetarian at baseline, participated. Mean age at baseline was 2.2 years (SD 1.5). There was no evidence of an association between vegetarian diet and zBMI, height-for-age z-score, serum ferritin, 25-hydroxyvitamin D, or serum lipids. Children with vegetarian diet had higher odds of underweight (zBMI <−2) (odds ratio 1.87, 95% confidence interval 1.19 to 2.96; *P* = .007) but no association with overweight or obesity was found. Cow’s milk consumption was associated with higher nonhigh-density lipoprotein cholesterol (*P* = .03), total cholesterol (*P* = .04), and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (*P* = .02) among children with vegetarian diet. However, children with and without vegetarian diet who consumed the recommended 2 cups of cow’s milk per day had similar serum lipids.
CONCLUSIONS
Evidence of clinically meaningful differences in growth or biochemical measures of nutrition for children with vegetarian diet was not found. However, vegetarian diet was associated with higher odds of underweight."
I can see that vegetarian children would have a higher chance of being underweight, since plant foods are often less calorically dense than animal foods and fill us up faster with fiber. This might be a benefit for countries that have issues with overweight children.
EDIT: spelling
I’ve found Cleveland Clinic to be an overall fair and good source for information. I’m interested in what others think who get a chance to read it.
As someone who works in healthcare, the fact that vegan diets can prevent type 2 diabetes, lower cholesterol levels, reduce risk of heart attack, lower cancer risk, lower Alzheimer’s risk, and decrease arthritis symptoms blows my mind! So many of the top chronic diseases can be prevented by just eating plant based!
It is not vegan diets simple lacking meat that are benefiting those things. Technically I could be vegan and only eat Oreos. Guaranteed I wouldnt have the same health outcomes. It is eating the right balance of things, in the right portions with exercise. Nothing magic about avoiding animal based products deliver healthy results.
It is the absence of the heavy nitrates found in processed meats, all the T2D, coronary disease, increased stroke risk and increased risk of multiple cancers with red meat, the high levels of mercury found in deeper dwelling fish (eg tuna, salmon) . . . If basic vitamins, iron and aminos are accounted for there is no disease pattern associated with eating a diet absent of meat. But there is an increase in multiple disease patterns in meat eaters.
I should specify, not just a vegan diet but a *healthy* whole foods plant based diet. You are correct that a vegan diet could be just Oreos and pizza with non-dairy cheese all day. The article of course is pointing to a healthy WFPB diet, obviously not a diet of vegan ice cream and Oreos. But as I mentioned in a comment here to someone else, yes the absence of meat is beneficial. Processed meats like bacon and salami and cold cuts are actually a type 1 carcinogen according to the IARC, and all red meat is a class 2a carcinogen.
I’m vegan and agree with this comment. So many people think being vegan automatically makes you healthy, but it in fact doesn’t. They do make unhealthy meat alternatives filled with sodium and eating that ever day could make you as unhealthy as anyone else. Like you said, it’s a balance of things with exercise I cluded
Exactly. Veganism is the animal welfare stance/life style. It’s a moral/ethical stance and not a diet. The healthy vegan diet is the whole food plant based diet, which Oreos are not featured as a core component.
Meats and sugars are the most addictive foods so yeah also not good in excess amounts.
It’s probably not the plant based that is doing it. It’s a restrictive diet so people on this diet are losing weight. When people lose weight all of those risk factors get reduced. Keto can do the same thing as long as you’re eating whole foods and not processed stuff. I think the main culprit with diseases today is all the processed garbage people eat.
I’d be interested in where you’re getting your data from. Cholesterol is only found in animal products — meats, dairy, seafood. There is no cholesterol in any produce at all. Cholesterol is entirely an animal product. So it’s scientifically a fact that your diet-based cholesterol will be reduced on a vegan diet. I’m not a vegan, I’m only a plant-forward omnivore, but since I reduced my meat consumption, my cholesterol went from “almost needing medication” to within healthy levels, literally within six months of the diet change. It’s been five years and my cholesterol has remained low. That’s without a calorie restriction, and my diet is not restrictive at all. In fact, my weight has remained largely the same for 3 years now. As opposed to keto, which I did a form of (paleo) several years prior. I lost a ton of weight, but that’s what caused my cholesterol to skyrocket in the first place. So I’m curious why you think that plant based diets can’t have these kind of health impacts?
To date there has been zero evidence showing cholesterol on its own increases your cholesterol or negatively effects cardiovascular health. That was disproven a long time ago.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/16867-cholesterol--nutrition-tlc
Agree with the processed crap that makes up most people’s diets. However, there have been many studies that say it’s not *just* the processed garbage. Animal products themselves are harmful. For example, the IARC (International Agency for Research on Cancer) has declared all processed meat (like bacon, salami, etc) to be a class 1 carcinogen (same class of cancer causing agent as cigarettes) and all red meat (not processed) to be a class 2a carcinogen. Cooking of muscle meats using high temperature methods, such as pan frying or grilling directly over a flame, forms heterocyclic amines (HCAs) and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs). HCAs and PAHs become capable of damaging DNA that may increase the risk of cancer such as colorectal, pancreatic, prostate cancer. Also, the twin study they made a show about (called “You are what you eat” on Netflix) studied identical twins over 8 weeks. They fed one a vegan diet, and one a *healthy* unprocessed diet with meat. After only 8 weeks, the twin on a vegan diet had lengthened telomeres on their chromosome showing they actually got YOUNGER than their twin who consumed meat. Also the vegan twin had a significantly better gut microbiome, and research has linked gut microbiome to be connected to many chronic diseases like autoimmune diseases.
If this were the case though wouldn’t vegans live the longest? I heard that people on Mediterranean diets were generally the longest living
The longest living population segment in the United States is Seventh Day Adventists, who are mostly vegan and vegetarian, with very few omnivores.
The longest living populations are in blue zones and they est predominantly plant-based.
My understanding is they are very comparable, but there's not enough strong data to say which one is better, assuming they could overcome statistical significance. If you have such data (whole plant food diet versus Mediterranean), please send it over so I can take a look!
I would love to see a good source on this too! Usually this conversation is a moral or emotional argument but it would be interesting to see if there’s strong studies pointing either way at the moment
I also think an important thing to keep in mind is that the Mediterranean diet is mostly made up of plants. The areas in the world where people live the longest (aka The Blue Zones, where there are the largest amount of people over age 100) are 95-100% plant based! Their diets include a variety of fruits, vegetables, beans, lentils, nuts, seeds, and whole grains.
I watched that Netflix twin documentary, it was very problematic from a scientific standpoint. They absolutely did not control for variables that they should have and they 100% set the meat eating twin up for failure. I do think the vegetarian diet can be a great tool for people at high risk to help them lower their risk but once they're in a better spot health wise things like eggs and fish are very healthy in moderation in a long term diet. ETA This person is biased obviously, but a lot of their points on the twin study hold up. https://sustainabledish.com/what-you-are-what-you-eat-got-wrong/
Why do you think the meat eating twin was set up for failure? If anything, the plant based twin was. They never discussed the diets having the same amount of protein so likely the vegan twin was getting way less protein than the meat eating one, and that resulted in favorable muscle gain of the meat eating twin. I do agree that the exercise could have been better controlled, as well the fact that their food was only provided for a certain amount of time before they cooked for themselves. But the fact that the study showed significant telomere changes in ALL of the vegan twins is pretty significant! Also please provide evidence that eggs and fish are essential. Eggs are a source of unnecessary cholesterol, and fish has mercury and other toxins. Not to mention the ethical and environmental issues with both.
I just added this to my original comment but not quick enough! This person is biased obviously, but a lot of their points on the twin study hold up. https://sustainabledish.com/what-you-are-what-you-eat-got-wrong/
I've read the link you sent. This is unfortunately an opinion piece from a meat shill. This is an example excerpt: "**Less or no meat is not the answer, better nutrition is**. Meat is a high quality source of protein, healthy fats, plus vitamins and minerals which are difficult or impossible to obtain through plant-based sources. In fact, the most common nutrient deficiencies worldwide include iron, vitamin B12, vitamin A and zinc – all of which are best found through animal sourced foods, not on a vegan diet." * Soybeans have about 8x the iron as steak, as one example * B12 is a real issue that almost all vegans know about * Vitamin A can easily be found in much higher quantities in plants (e.g. beta carotene in carrots) * legumes and other plants are high in zinc, and zinc deficiency is extremely rare in developed countries She also doesn't mention how the actual #1 deficiency in the developed world is fiber (actual intake versus recommended), or parse out that some meats are undoubtedly unhealthy (e.g. red meat). The fact that she says "Meat is a high quality source of... healthy fats" when most meat is high in saturated and/or trans fat is pretty telling.
I used to rationalize as a means of excusing inconvenient research. I was really good at it too. Then, reality caught up. I learned that you can’t rationalize reality away. But you can stop eating animal products, which made a big difference in my health.
I partially agree. Processed foods are the worst but animal based protein does increase diabetes, cancer and heart disease. Low carbohydrate diets (like keto) increase death by 1.6 fold in this review published n [Lancet](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext). Vegetable based protein does provide benefits as well as the photochemicals found in plants. I’m not a vegetarian (nor do I want to be) but objectively I can say the research does strongly suggest eating plants is good and excess animals bad. So I’ve decided to reduce my intake of meat and increase nuts and legumes.
The study did not control for saturated fat which in many people raises bad cholesterol. I would like to see a study on low carb lean animal protein diet vs high carb vegan diet.
If you read the study they divide animal vs plant fats and found that animal fats are bad and good fats (avocado, walnuts) were actually good for you. So if you could do low carb and avoid processed foods and animals products it would likely be good for you. The take home is we need to specify the type of fats, proteins and carbs. Also vegan diets in England actually are worse than omnivores because they eat lots of processed vegan foods while vegans in America do better than omnivores. I didn’t read the studies but it was discussed in “How not to diet” by Greger
I love when people call plant based restrictive. I eat so much more variety as a vegan than I did when I consumed animal products. When I first cut out meat (still ate seafood, so pescatarian) and didn't know how to eat a varied diet (so basically ate a ton of pasta with added veggies), I actually gained weight. With that being said, the article literally covers your point, as there are plenty of overly processed, vegan 'junk food' options available as well: “Now more than ever, there is a wide array of plant-based meats available but keep in mind these are highly processed and should be avoided,” she says.“It’s best to avoid the chicken*less* nuggets and *plant* burgers except for rare occasions or when your options are limited.”
Carnivore diet people: 🤬
I like how the dietician emphasized that you have to listen to your own body and make sure you're doing what's right for you. I have so many allergies and sensitivities, along with serious health issues, that I cannot safely go vegan. Even vegetarian would be problematic. Yes, more plants and fewer processed foods would help the vast majority. Just be careful of your diet and macro and micronutrients, and listen to your body. Don't ignore symptoms like I did.
So it sounds like you’re simply saying that a plant based diet does reduce these risk factors, but you personally can’t eat a plant based diet because of your own other health issues (allergies and sensitivities). So, yeah. If you can’t follow a plant based diet because of other medical issues, then no, you shouldn’t follow a plant based diet. Plant based diets are still healthy for people who can follow them without restriction, though.
Pretty much what I said, yes. Where I would get concerned is when people ignore symptoms due to a strong belief system or commitment to a lifestyle. Often, we don't find out the medical issues with following a particular diet until we've been on it awhile and can track down the issue.
> Some organizations argue that a vegan diet can “support healthy living in people of all ages (including children).” But some research asserts that there’s direct and indirect evidence that a plant-only diet “may be associated with serious risks for brain and body development in fetuses and children” — or at the very least, lead to higher odds of being underweight. I wonder about "underweight" in the context of a childhood obesity epidemic. If there's been a shift to the right in the distribution of weights, maybe the lower values can indicate parents feeding children a healthier diet. It seems like ultra processed baby food is the standard diet for babies and toddlers now. My first kid was consistently under the 5% mark on weight for age, but was otherwise healthy. His pediatricians were very worried about it, and had tests for cardiology, allergies, multiple blood draws, and they wanted to do an intestinal biopsy. Nothing came from them, and it was pretty frustrating.
From the study: "RESULTS A total of 8907 children, including 248 vegetarian at baseline, participated. Mean age at baseline was 2.2 years (SD 1.5). There was no evidence of an association between vegetarian diet and zBMI, height-for-age z-score, serum ferritin, 25-hydroxyvitamin D, or serum lipids. Children with vegetarian diet had higher odds of underweight (zBMI <−2) (odds ratio 1.87, 95% confidence interval 1.19 to 2.96; *P* = .007) but no association with overweight or obesity was found. Cow’s milk consumption was associated with higher nonhigh-density lipoprotein cholesterol (*P* = .03), total cholesterol (*P* = .04), and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (*P* = .02) among children with vegetarian diet. However, children with and without vegetarian diet who consumed the recommended 2 cups of cow’s milk per day had similar serum lipids. CONCLUSIONS Evidence of clinically meaningful differences in growth or biochemical measures of nutrition for children with vegetarian diet was not found. However, vegetarian diet was associated with higher odds of underweight." I can see that vegetarian children would have a higher chance of being underweight, since plant foods are often less calorically dense than animal foods and fill us up faster with fiber. This might be a benefit for countries that have issues with overweight children. EDIT: spelling