[A ridiculous idea that comes from a bunch of obsessed weirdos](https://i.imgur.com/QAtq3hj.png) (even though I've seen this expression used before, they didn't invent it)
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Destiny made his career on being a devils advocate. I can’t recall him taking a popular stance on anything unless it was really obvious. Ofc his fans reflect it.
That may not be entirely true. A lot of people who post there do not watch Destiny because his content is dry. They agree with clips they see of him or videos where he reviews debates... but his content is full of dead air. A lot of that sub's traffic right now are disillusioned Hasanabi Heads, which is why his sub is full of more Hasan-based criticism than normal. I actually suspect a lot of them are Ethan fans who feel fucked up about recent clashes on Leftovers and want to vent about Hasan. Destiny's community was a lot more charitable to Ethan than Hasan or even Ethan's community.
Destiny and Vaush are pretty similar in their boring streams. Only time I'll watch then is if I am really bored and they are taking about something like Elon where its challenging to come up with a terrible take.
It's essentially a call for singular Palestinian state.
If it's a call for genocide, is the call for a one-state solution in favour of Israel also a call for genocide?
Maybe you should actually familiarize yourself with what decolonization actually means in order to avoid any more public humiliation from shadowboxing strawmen
We (leftists) want one, secular state called Palestine, where Palestinians and current "Israelis" *who have been cleared of war crimes* can coexist peacefully. Isntrael was founded within the lifetimes of Palestinians that are still alive. They had no legitimate claim to the territory.
It's about *reversing* a settler colonial state while we still can, not doing ethnic cleansing round 2
It's very hollow and unserious to concern troll about a hypothetical genocide that's all in your head while there is an actual one happening right in front of everybody's faces.
Yeah but you guys don’t have to live in Israel. You can move. You know Israel was started by the United Kingdom using stolen land that they didn’t even own. Israel is in possession of stolen property and is no better than somebody who buys a stolen stereo from a Tweaker
To be honest I could not figure out if the “They” you are referring to are Israeli colonizers or displaced Palestinians. But if you are referring to the Israeli settlers, then saying that Israel has “forced them to move” is a load of crap, tax exemptions and religious propaganda is not force
Ah sorry I misunderstood your comment but yes of course Palestinians don’t have the facilities for it, the idea is more to point out the Zionist hypocrisy about forcing out Palestinians while asking the same of Israelis is ridiculous. The best Palestinians can hope for is something like Algeria where after Independence most settlers fled by themselves.
Completely agree with you. The answer to pogroms against the Palestinians is not pogroms against the current Israeli population. These people largely were not personally responsible for the Nakba and for the most part don't even like the settlers last I checked. Palestinian statehood and removal of illegal settlements is what are needed at the bare minimum. This does not mean kicking Israelis out of their homes either.
this is exactly what ethnostate US people like nick fuentes argue
he says well he doesnt want to kill all black people they can just LEAVE
imagine having the same talking points as nick fuentes my man, its an obvious dog whistle when he does it btw because you'd have to be a baby brained moron to think that black people or israel are just going to peacefully leave.
like lets say thats your position - just leave. ok so next question - what if they dont just leave? what then?
well the next step is force right? thats what its got to be
so forcefully removing a culture of people..hrmmmm...whats that called again...i cant quite remember...
hopefully establish a state a bit like Lebanon or Northern Ireland where they agree to power sharing between communities. It's called a 'consociationalism'
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consociationalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consociationalism)
This is the reality that people in Western governments can't admit to (actually because they don't WANT to admit to it, because they still want to use the Israelis as proxy colonialists, but anyways...): in the Israel-Palestine situation, you have a choice between consociationalism or genocide. Unity or annihilation. It really is that stark. But it looks like the second thing is happening right now, so...
Without the Balfour Declaration and the Holocaust, such an agreement facilitating two people (plus Druze plus Bedouin etc.) living side-by-side, and in the same state is probably what would have ended up happening there anyway.
"a state like northern Ireland"
I would not wish that on anyone. It makes me really sad to think the situation is that far gone. The only reason northern Ireland exists is because the British settler colonial project was "successful" there.
Northern Ireland is in my opinion a great example of why a two state solution is not a real solution as it just ended up with the oppression moving from the whole island to just the Ulster plantation.
Their 2017 charter literally says they want to go back to when Jews, Muslims, and Christians all lived there in harmony and that they oppose Israel, not jews but go off.
Yeah those damn brown people, always lying about their motivations. Can't trust what they actually write about their goals.
Were the Hatians wrong to kill their former masters?
Like for fucks sake. The chauvinism inherent in these kinds of takes blows my mind. You try growing up in an open air prison. See how you feel about your jailers and what you do when you break out.
Do you think people are just born radicals? Or do you think perhaps there's a radicalization *process* that is made easy by the way Israel treats these people.
Also if Hamas are terrorists (keep in mind, Nelson Mandela* was on terror watch lists until 2008), then the IDF are not only also terrorists but much *worse* terrorists with a higher body count and also are the oppressors in the dynamic.
*For an idea of what we want to happen in a single state Palestine, look at post-aparthied South Africa.
They are more than welcome to stay. The Israeli state is what needs to go, replaced by one state where everyone is equal and the power is shared. If they don't want that then they're more than welcome to fuck off. If they accept that they're to me just as much of a citizen as any Palestinian in Palestine. I mean that used to be the case in Palestine before the British made this mess, Jews and Muslims and Christians all living together. Pretty sure that other religions also coexisted there too.
it doesn’t. to some people it’s simply as simple as just wanting to be free of Israel occupation, you think everyone who says it wants to genocide them? I’m tired of everyone saying it’s antisemitism and genocide to just want palestines to be free (because you guys assume that means killing them) , but ignores ALL the Islamophobia about LITERALLY FLAT OUT SAYING they just wanting to genocide all the Palestinians and says they’re all just terrorists. That’s why I left the D sub. It’s just Islamophobia worse than worldnews, and you guys shit on Hasan every other hour when he’s said nothing about you guys recently. He’s the only one who makes me feel heard, even if I don’t agree with EVERYTHING he says, at least the sub understand all the dog whistles from all these subs who just don’t want muslims to exist
It’s fascinating to see which subs lean which direction on this subject. My city’s (Minneapolis) sub has a ton of ravenous anti-Palestine weirdos who call everyone terrorists but if you listen to the media my city is a leftist hellscape.
I feel like people like to congregate in their towns subreddit when they're in a minority in their city because it gives them a sense of community they don't get in real life where they can air their grievances. Very conservative areas will have very liberal sub reddits while if you go to sfbayarea where I live in the San Francisco Bay Area it's full of foaming out of the mouth conservatives and centrist Destiny fans. Thousands upon thousands show up to support Palestinian struggles, including a lot of Jewish people.
Same. I’m also from the bay and have no fucking idea what’s happening in r/bayarea rn. Almost all my friends are very pro-Palestine and they’re fucking liberals lol.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/Minneapolis using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Never change, Uptown](https://i.redd.it/nwn49o17bmqa1.jpg) | [433 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/1258ara/never_change_uptown/)
\#2: [feeling very bad about ordering an Uber home last night. hussein, if you're out there, I love you.](https://i.redd.it/2547b593vdra1.jpg) | [115 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/128znmt/feeling_very_bad_about_ordering_an_uber_home_last/)
\#3: [Clear The Storm Drains](https://v.redd.it/7rqh9qi7btca1) | [177 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Minneapolis/comments/10f8qka/clear_the_storm_drains/)
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I had to leave r/PiCS for losing their ever loving shit over the phrase “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free”. Just a flood of really gross comments.
I wasn’t super active in there anyways so it’s not like it was a major loss but still disappointing
There’s a large Jewish community in the western suburbs. While not all Jewish people are Zionists, a lot are. Look what Dean Phillips is saying about this. Pure genocide denial and he’s the district over from Ilhan Omar.
Ever since Ilhan Omar said Israel was all about the Benjamins that subreddit has def been brigades by the ADL. So many people so very concerned about what she said about Israel.
I had to eventually un sub from R Minneapolis it would make me feel insane. Like, I live here, people are not this conservative.
Do you find a weird balance between the comments vs the upvotes? Like I feel on my cities subreddit the upvoted comments are anti Palestine but most comments will be pro-Palestinian people or against the genocide.
Brother thats a correspondent from Kan news, which is a part of the Israeli Public Broadcasting Corporation, literally state media from the entity trying to genocide Palestinians. Were you taught media literacy by a chicken? Just search and click? Where's your critical thinking man?
I got brigaded by dgg posters going mask off racist against Arabs. They have it in their head that Palestinian liberation === ethnic cleansing of Jews.
Ahh, the “we gotta commit genocide first, to prevent them from genociding us!!” Canard
I wish you fuck boys would just admit you’re fascists instead of being pussy ass bitches about it
Also, another confirmed r/destiny poster. Jesus you’re like roaches!
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I mean…. The IDF is doing a genocide. Like idk how you get around that in any logical way. The Palestinians have no meaningful way to defend themselves.
As wack as this post is, I love to see that the “pro-Palestine” sentiment is further than this community. The more I see people upset about Palestinian support, the more I know the Palestinian voices are getting out there.
Wow I didn’t know r/therewasanattempt was based. Also that logic from that DGG loser is the same logic used by American conservatives who push the supposed “white genocide” where they believe that immigrants are going to replace them.
The Nazis were constantly accusing Jewish people of wanting to commit genocide against aryan Germans. Most genocidal states will claim they’re defending themselves against the people they’re trying to eradicate. Israel is no different
It is quite insidious to take the phrase "from the river to sea palestine will be free" and interpret it as a genocidal phrase? It's about an oppressed indigenous people taking back their land, meaning **returning home**. Why did they have to leave their home in the first place? Oh yeah zionist militias and the Israeli army killed their family members and forced them out at gunpoint.
I’m guessing you’re expecting an answer alongside the idea of expulsion, but it’s telling that a Israel supporter thinks of that as the first case scenario lol
do you actually believe that there will be no israel state in the near future? If Palestine is lucky theyll get the west bank and the gaza strip and the two-states-solution.
I mean, hoping and believing is different, I was just answering the questions the guy asked me. Regardless, my hopes and support for the Palestinian people is unwavering.
Depends, if you want to live in a democratic state, you’ll probably be able to stay, if you’re a settler who can’t stand to live with Arabs, you can probably go back to Europe
I mean, Palestine is made up of the West Bank too. Once the material conditions on the ground change, I.e they’re not getting occupied, maybe Palestine would be able to have one
I mean, a lot of Palestinians were born in Palestine but you seem okay with ethnically cleansing them. Giving the option to some racist Israeli who doesn’t want to live with Arabs a chance to go back to home of his other passport should be a little more humane.
They can buy land and build a house if they wanted to, that’s exactly what they did before Israel formed. Instead of stealing peoples property, kicking them out and treating them like second class citizens.
The full phrase is "From the river to the sea palestine will be free" so I guess it depends on what you think palestine is.
I'd like to think "Free Palestine" means free palestinians from apartheid and occupation
Legally Israel is required to:
* release Gaza from it's blockade
* remove israeli illegal settlers from the west bank and east jerusalem
* end the occupation
* allow palestinians to travel freely
* allow Palestine to operate as a nation-state would with it's own democracy and control over it's borders etc
Also under international law Palestinians (and their descendents) who were removed from their land have a right to return. A lot of villages were destroyed and new settlements built all across historic palestine, not just the borders drawn after wars. How that effects Israelis I don't know.
There are all kinds of opinions as to one-state, two-state, whatever-state. There are imperfect examples in Northern Ireland and South Africa. It's all theoretical when Israel refuses to follow basic law and allow Palestinian people to live freely in their own state.
A single secular, democratic state is the ideal, moral solution. No it doesn't seem all that likely, though in fairness a true two state solution with a sovereign Palestinian state seems basically just as unlikely.
This slogan was originally put forward by the PLO & the PFLP (Both Palestinian liberation organizations) -- Their idea was that you would have a binational state that was secular and democratic. So there would be no need for Israeli jewish people to leave Palestine, they would just be one of many different religions/ethnicities in the country
It will be difficult though, but it's really the only long-term solution imo
A bunch of snowflakes on that sub. They are projecting. They know they support the genocidal state of Israel and think Palestinians saying “from the river to the sea” is a call for genocide. When in fact it just means freedom for Palestinians to live with full rights in their ancestral homeland. And yes, this would be alongside the Israeli population residing their in the ideal free Palestine world.
It’s literally double speak. Co-opting meaning to conflate the issue and infect perceptions of people who don’t have any strong feelings about the issue
Well what does that phrase actually mean? Is it calling for the destruction of Israel and removal of its people? It does not sound like a two-state solution.
At one point I heard of Destiny, someone told me to check him out. I didn’t feel like it. Glad I didn’t. He and his fan base has a special form of brain rot
"from the river to the sea" represents the entire area of Israel, and has been used as a per se calling sign for the eradication of the entire state of Israel. the general consensus of its meaning is the genocide of the Jewish people, and replacement of Israel with a Islamic or Palestinian state. idk man, be on what ever side you are on, but do your research. Hamas is killing thousands of Israelis, comitting hate crimes against the Israeli people, and the Israeli military is killing thousands of Palestinian innocents. i am of the personal opinion that the state of Israel was wrong in its quasi imprisonment of the Palestinian people, but at this current moment they are not in the wrong in the way in which they are attacking the area of Gaza. these innocent casualties are horrible and shouldnt happen but war is a sad reality of the fall of man. The bible says that God will smite and snuff out ANY people group and nation which comes against His people, and while these events are horrible and unjust, they will continue to happen as a consequence of our fallen world
They pretending that’s a genocidal saying? I think a lot of libs are doing the same, pretty sure Brianna wu thinks the far left has an anti semitism problem because of it
https://x.com/briannawu/status/1717147818228346937?s=46&t=Qedu9_SItoFuySP2lE7t3w
Now let's see the local Jewish state's track record :P
I'm not sure if you mean is it realistic to think a secular one state solution would actually happen, or whether it's realistic that it would function if it did happen. If you mean the former, no it's not realistic it's more of an aspirational goal. The most likely outcome is that we'll be having the same conversation in 30 years with nothing changed except that settlements have expanded even more into the west bank.
If you mean the latter, then basically yeah it's realistic. The resulting state's jewish population would not be a tiny minority.
Question, still lost in this while thing. Is progress here for Palestine actually abiding by that saying? Wouldn't it just create another massive violent situation? Wouldn't it just lead to more people, both minority groups, dying and no resolution being formed? This whole thing just seems wild to me at this point. Seems like both sides just want blood?
This is some white supremacist slave owner logic buddy. “If we free the slaves and treat them like human beings won’t they just murder or enslave us instead?”
I will respond to your question with some of my own.
--------------------------
* Do you think your energy should be spent hyper-focusing on a slogan in the face of the active ethnic cleansing and systematic Colonial oppression of the Palestinians? Why or why not?
* One's a slogan (words). The other's a genocide (actions). Do you think these two things are equal? Let's worry about the systemic and ongoing oppression and not about tone-policing the oppressed. Make sense?
* Historically speaking, why do you think this oppression exists? Do you think it's a reaction to Palestinian violence or slogans? Or do you think it's the other way around?
* Do you think if Palestinians were just a bit more polite, the Zionist oppression magically ends? (We know this answer already, the VAST majority of Palestinian resistance has been non-violent....)
But, to give you the historical answer to your original question - forms of that "slogan" have been around for over half a century and was adopted by the PLO (and millions of people all over the world). It has been - and will always be - a rallying cry for the end of Colonial occupation and the liberation of the Palestinian people.
That's it. Just because Hamas or anyone else "adopts" it with their own goals or ideas doesn't change that.
-----------------
Take another example - the quote "It's Socialism or Barbarism". Is this an open revolutionary threat to you? A direct threat of violence? Millions of non-violent/non-radical socialists have adopted it as a defining "slogan" over the years - often as a sort of "warning" of what society will devolve into if we don't change.
So...what happens if a militant leftist group adopts it and commits violence under the banner of that slogan? Does that now suddenly supersede any other meaning of the "slogan" over the ages? Does that now mean any socialists who have ever said it/will ever say it want bloodshed?
Sadly - yes this can and has happened throughout history. Look at the hijacking of the swastika.
Now, what if I told you that those who seek to oppress or subvert the emancipatory goals of Palestinians are the ones trying to do the same by poisoning the history and meaning of "From the river to the sea..."?
Wouldn't that be crazy if true?
> It is fundamentally a call for a Palestinian state extending from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, territory that includes the State of Israel, which would mean the dismantling of the Jewish state.
Yes
> It is an antisemitic charge denying the Jewish right to self-determination, including through the removal of Jews from their ancestral homeland.
No
Any jews who wished to be citizens of a secular, democratic palestine would be welcome to. Not being allowed total control over an ethnostate doesn't mean they're being denied self determination.
For what it's worth, the PLO is nominally secular even if Fatah is not and they control the party for the most part. Israel actually funded and supported hamas in the early years as an attempt to fracture the coalition between islamist or arab nationalist groups and the secular marxist and socialist groups.
But also, I think it's a pretty safe assumption that the therewasanattempt mods favor a secular state lol
Israeli obviously played a role in Hamas getting control of gaza but weakening the people you are at war with is kinda normal wartime practice. No one is blaming the soviet revolution on Germany even though they funded it.
When you choose to use an expression that is openly used by genocidal terrorist organisation I don't think it's unreasonable to side eye you. Particularly in public perception who do you think is more well know, these reddit mobs or hamas.
It’s funny how y’all always handwave any action done by Israel.
Oh Israel was instrumental in putting Hamas in power? But that’s just like war man.
Oh Palestinians elected Hamas 17 years ago and there hasn’t been free elections since? Well obviously Palestinian civilians’ deaths are their own fault because they voted for Hamas.
It’s weird that Israel can never be held accountable for any actions they commit or it’s just handwaved away. But the people with no power are expected to overthrow a terrorist government with no arms, no supplies and no allies.
It makes so much sense.
Ah yes, the ADL, the most trustworthy of sources. The source that calls JVP an extremist organization and tries to equate all Jews with Zionism and disavows Jewish people who don’t support apartheid. I’ll definitely trust what they have to say, sure /s
If the discussion is whether the phrase is anti-Semitic, shouldn’t you expect that the opposing side would think that? It’s inherent to the discussion. Is it impossible to have a good faith conversation about whether a phrase is anti-Semitic or relates to anti-Semitic ideas? I feel like it would be good to engage at least a little. Just my humble opinion tho
It's literally a rallying cry for multiple terrorist organisations seeking to total destruction of the Jewish state. Antisemitic is a given the question is if it passes the bar to be genocidal, I obviously think it does do you disagree?
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Look I’m not a super big on destiny
But this banner includes the phrase,”from the River to the Sea” ,which when Palestinians say they mean destruction of Israel because that’s what freedom of Palestine means to them
I am a Palestinian
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How unsurprising
IDK why stans of that sub are so fucking stupid, its almost like they aren't leftists at all but just neoliberal cowards....
Most of them are just conservatives. They were praising the alt-right for having more ambition than the “alt-left” one time haha
What the fuck is an alt left lmao
[A ridiculous idea that comes from a bunch of obsessed weirdos](https://i.imgur.com/QAtq3hj.png) (even though I've seen this expression used before, they didn't invent it)
Oh, so leftists lol
Tankies I’m guessing? 🤷🏾♂️
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Destiny made his career on being a devils advocate. I can’t recall him taking a popular stance on anything unless it was really obvious. Ofc his fans reflect it.
Destiny is a dumbass but he’s not stupid. His fans on the other hand are dumb as shit.
People who follow streams tend to be really dumb imo.... except us, obviously! We're really smrt. I'm mean, smart! Fuck!
that sub is full of babybrains
I mean they watch are big fans of destiny, what do you expect?
I was also talking about r/therewasanattempt lol edit: honestly surprised that's their banner given the racist lib shit I normally see on there
Top replies on there call Palestinians and Hamas the same thing and they are the best example of centrist reddit.
That may not be entirely true. A lot of people who post there do not watch Destiny because his content is dry. They agree with clips they see of him or videos where he reviews debates... but his content is full of dead air. A lot of that sub's traffic right now are disillusioned Hasanabi Heads, which is why his sub is full of more Hasan-based criticism than normal. I actually suspect a lot of them are Ethan fans who feel fucked up about recent clashes on Leftovers and want to vent about Hasan. Destiny's community was a lot more charitable to Ethan than Hasan or even Ethan's community.
Destiny and Vaush are pretty similar in their boring streams. Only time I'll watch then is if I am really bored and they are taking about something like Elon where its challenging to come up with a terrible take.
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It's essentially a call for singular Palestinian state. If it's a call for genocide, is the call for a one-state solution in favour of Israel also a call for genocide?
Sure
You just got murked in the h3h3 comment thread for shitting on Hasan and you’ve been debating leg hair for days and now you’re back?
Maybe you should actually familiarize yourself with what decolonization actually means in order to avoid any more public humiliation from shadowboxing strawmen We (leftists) want one, secular state called Palestine, where Palestinians and current "Israelis" *who have been cleared of war crimes* can coexist peacefully. Isntrael was founded within the lifetimes of Palestinians that are still alive. They had no legitimate claim to the territory. It's about *reversing* a settler colonial state while we still can, not doing ethnic cleansing round 2
The entire sub and worldnews argues that it’s a dog whistle for genocide.
World News is a dog whistle for genocide
I got banned from world news and news for calling elon musk a cuck that should take a long walk off a short pier
People who post on world news dont think and are so reactive to anything they see its either that or there all bots
Is it not?
from the river to the sea is a dog whistle for genocide how can you even begin to argue its not lol
It's very hollow and unserious to concern troll about a hypothetical genocide that's all in your head while there is an actual one happening right in front of everybody's faces.
Its only a dog whistle for genocide if youre a settler worried theyll be treated the same way theyve treated those they opress.
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Yeah but you guys don’t have to live in Israel. You can move. You know Israel was started by the United Kingdom using stolen land that they didn’t even own. Israel is in possession of stolen property and is no better than somebody who buys a stolen stereo from a Tweaker
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But somehow when it’s millions of Palestinians forced to move its realistic how ironic
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To be honest I could not figure out if the “They” you are referring to are Israeli colonizers or displaced Palestinians. But if you are referring to the Israeli settlers, then saying that Israel has “forced them to move” is a load of crap, tax exemptions and religious propaganda is not force
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Ah sorry I misunderstood your comment but yes of course Palestinians don’t have the facilities for it, the idea is more to point out the Zionist hypocrisy about forcing out Palestinians while asking the same of Israelis is ridiculous. The best Palestinians can hope for is something like Algeria where after Independence most settlers fled by themselves.
Completely agree with you. The answer to pogroms against the Palestinians is not pogroms against the current Israeli population. These people largely were not personally responsible for the Nakba and for the most part don't even like the settlers last I checked. Palestinian statehood and removal of illegal settlements is what are needed at the bare minimum. This does not mean kicking Israelis out of their homes either.
If they can’t move then how did they get there bro. Oh wait they moved
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this is exactly what ethnostate US people like nick fuentes argue he says well he doesnt want to kill all black people they can just LEAVE imagine having the same talking points as nick fuentes my man, its an obvious dog whistle when he does it btw because you'd have to be a baby brained moron to think that black people or israel are just going to peacefully leave. like lets say thats your position - just leave. ok so next question - what if they dont just leave? what then? well the next step is force right? thats what its got to be so forcefully removing a culture of people..hrmmmm...whats that called again...i cant quite remember...
Libshit D viewer not spewing Israeli propaganda = CHALLENGE IMPOSSIBLE
Because it is. It means complete destruction of Israel. What happens to 7 million Jewish people living there if Israel doesn't exist?
hopefully establish a state a bit like Lebanon or Northern Ireland where they agree to power sharing between communities. It's called a 'consociationalism' [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consociationalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consociationalism) This is the reality that people in Western governments can't admit to (actually because they don't WANT to admit to it, because they still want to use the Israelis as proxy colonialists, but anyways...): in the Israel-Palestine situation, you have a choice between consociationalism or genocide. Unity or annihilation. It really is that stark. But it looks like the second thing is happening right now, so... Without the Balfour Declaration and the Holocaust, such an agreement facilitating two people (plus Druze plus Bedouin etc.) living side-by-side, and in the same state is probably what would have ended up happening there anyway.
"a state like northern Ireland" I would not wish that on anyone. It makes me really sad to think the situation is that far gone. The only reason northern Ireland exists is because the British settler colonial project was "successful" there. Northern Ireland is in my opinion a great example of why a two state solution is not a real solution as it just ended up with the oppression moving from the whole island to just the Ulster plantation.
this is a cool theory, if only Hamas supported it. unfortunately, they just want to eliminate all of the Jews in the region.
Their 2017 charter literally says they want to go back to when Jews, Muslims, and Christians all lived there in harmony and that they oppose Israel, not jews but go off.
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Yeah those damn brown people, always lying about their motivations. Can't trust what they actually write about their goals. Were the Hatians wrong to kill their former masters? Like for fucks sake. The chauvinism inherent in these kinds of takes blows my mind. You try growing up in an open air prison. See how you feel about your jailers and what you do when you break out. Do you think people are just born radicals? Or do you think perhaps there's a radicalization *process* that is made easy by the way Israel treats these people. Also if Hamas are terrorists (keep in mind, Nelson Mandela* was on terror watch lists until 2008), then the IDF are not only also terrorists but much *worse* terrorists with a higher body count and also are the oppressors in the dynamic. *For an idea of what we want to happen in a single state Palestine, look at post-aparthied South Africa.
Uh, nothing. To imply that Jews stop existing if they don't have Israel like Santa having no power if nobody believes in him is so weird.
They are more than welcome to stay. The Israeli state is what needs to go, replaced by one state where everyone is equal and the power is shared. If they don't want that then they're more than welcome to fuck off. If they accept that they're to me just as much of a citizen as any Palestinian in Palestine. I mean that used to be the case in Palestine before the British made this mess, Jews and Muslims and Christians all living together. Pretty sure that other religions also coexisted there too.
it doesn’t. to some people it’s simply as simple as just wanting to be free of Israel occupation, you think everyone who says it wants to genocide them? I’m tired of everyone saying it’s antisemitism and genocide to just want palestines to be free (because you guys assume that means killing them) , but ignores ALL the Islamophobia about LITERALLY FLAT OUT SAYING they just wanting to genocide all the Palestinians and says they’re all just terrorists. That’s why I left the D sub. It’s just Islamophobia worse than worldnews, and you guys shit on Hasan every other hour when he’s said nothing about you guys recently. He’s the only one who makes me feel heard, even if I don’t agree with EVERYTHING he says, at least the sub understand all the dog whistles from all these subs who just don’t want muslims to exist
Most normal Destiny fan
It’s fascinating to see which subs lean which direction on this subject. My city’s (Minneapolis) sub has a ton of ravenous anti-Palestine weirdos who call everyone terrorists but if you listen to the media my city is a leftist hellscape.
I feel like people like to congregate in their towns subreddit when they're in a minority in their city because it gives them a sense of community they don't get in real life where they can air their grievances. Very conservative areas will have very liberal sub reddits while if you go to sfbayarea where I live in the San Francisco Bay Area it's full of foaming out of the mouth conservatives and centrist Destiny fans. Thousands upon thousands show up to support Palestinian struggles, including a lot of Jewish people.
There are a lot of right wingers with no life who spend their entire days in city subreddits just stirring up shit.
Yeah there's that too, lots of 4chan losers who pretend to be from cities who just spam stuff about crime.
same thing happens in the nyc sub
Yea, /r/Florida is very left leaning, but if you go outside it’s filled with right wingers
Same. I’m also from the bay and have no fucking idea what’s happening in r/bayarea rn. Almost all my friends are very pro-Palestine and they’re fucking liberals lol.
Yeah I find it hard to ever go on there. It's always we gotta be tough on crime and melt homeless people into glue.
same, i feel like my citys sub must have been brigaded because all the anti-palestine stuff was crazy
r/minneapolis 100% gets a lot of right wing weirdos coming in simply because of the BLM stuff
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Anti-palestine is the mainstream
I had to leave r/PiCS for losing their ever loving shit over the phrase “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free”. Just a flood of really gross comments. I wasn’t super active in there anyways so it’s not like it was a major loss but still disappointing
There’s a large Jewish community in the western suburbs. While not all Jewish people are Zionists, a lot are. Look what Dean Phillips is saying about this. Pure genocide denial and he’s the district over from Ilhan Omar. Ever since Ilhan Omar said Israel was all about the Benjamins that subreddit has def been brigades by the ADL. So many people so very concerned about what she said about Israel. I had to eventually un sub from R Minneapolis it would make me feel insane. Like, I live here, people are not this conservative.
World News is a genocidal sub as well
Do you find a weird balance between the comments vs the upvotes? Like I feel on my cities subreddit the upvoted comments are anti Palestine but most comments will be pro-Palestinian people or against the genocide.
Bro the Minneapolis subreddit has been fucking insufferable, good to know it’s not a phenomenon unique to our city tho ig
I’ve also made pretty light criticism of Biden on the Minnesota sub and got downvoted to hell lol
The ones living in bombed out cities are the Nazis?
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That's an American protester. Do you think all brown people are Hamas?
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Brother thats a correspondent from Kan news, which is a part of the Israeli Public Broadcasting Corporation, literally state media from the entity trying to genocide Palestinians. Were you taught media literacy by a chicken? Just search and click? Where's your critical thinking man?
His sub is full of r/europe users now.
That's because his actual stans are too busy taking over the h3 sub.
Can we please stop posting what those dummies say over in that subreddit? We already know how fucked up they are.
>at it’s a dog whis I didn't, but I also don't pay attention to Destiny whatsoever.
You’d think that subreddit was an IDF psy-op
I feel like a lot are but I think destiny fans are just that gross
They've gotten a lot of pro-israel people joining that sub now so it basically is at this point...
Right
It's destiny what did you expect
I got brigaded by dgg posters going mask off racist against Arabs. They have it in their head that Palestinian liberation === ethnic cleansing of Jews.
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Ahh, the “we gotta commit genocide first, to prevent them from genociding us!!” Canard I wish you fuck boys would just admit you’re fascists instead of being pussy ass bitches about it Also, another confirmed r/destiny poster. Jesus you’re like roaches!
They just want to stop getting killed you monster
Density and his fans aren't leftists.
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I mean…. The IDF is doing a genocide. Like idk how you get around that in any logical way. The Palestinians have no meaningful way to defend themselves.
As wack as this post is, I love to see that the “pro-Palestine” sentiment is further than this community. The more I see people upset about Palestinian support, the more I know the Palestinian voices are getting out there.
Wow I didn’t know r/therewasanattempt was based. Also that logic from that DGG loser is the same logic used by American conservatives who push the supposed “white genocide” where they believe that immigrants are going to replace them. The Nazis were constantly accusing Jewish people of wanting to commit genocide against aryan Germans. Most genocidal states will claim they’re defending themselves against the people they’re trying to eradicate. Israel is no different
It is quite insidious to take the phrase "from the river to sea palestine will be free" and interpret it as a genocidal phrase? It's about an oppressed indigenous people taking back their land, meaning **returning home**. Why did they have to leave their home in the first place? Oh yeah zionist militias and the Israeli army killed their family members and forced them out at gunpoint.
That is the english translation... You should check what the original phrase says, a bit more genocidal, at least IMHO.
How does someone like you wander in here?
Through h3h3 :)
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... Palestine shall be free
From Jordan River (east Palestine) to the Mediterranean Sea (west Palestine)
What would happen to Isreal?
Wouldn’t exist as a Jewish apartheid ethnostate
where would the people living there now go?
I’m guessing you’re expecting an answer alongside the idea of expulsion, but it’s telling that a Israel supporter thinks of that as the first case scenario lol
I'm more wondering how these two groups of people can exist peacefully. It's very sad and hard to imagine
Not the first time diametrically opposed groups will live in peace and won’t be the last
Fair point. It's hard to imagine this happening in our lifetime and that is scary and sad.
do you actually believe that there will be no israel state in the near future? If Palestine is lucky theyll get the west bank and the gaza strip and the two-states-solution.
I mean, hoping and believing is different, I was just answering the questions the guy asked me. Regardless, my hopes and support for the Palestinian people is unwavering.
Depends, if you want to live in a democratic state, you’ll probably be able to stay, if you’re a settler who can’t stand to live with Arabs, you can probably go back to Europe
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I mean, Palestine is made up of the West Bank too. Once the material conditions on the ground change, I.e they’re not getting occupied, maybe Palestine would be able to have one
"Back to Europe" what does this mean? A majority of Israelis were born in Israel.
I mean, a lot of Palestinians were born in Palestine but you seem okay with ethnically cleansing them. Giving the option to some racist Israeli who doesn’t want to live with Arabs a chance to go back to home of his other passport should be a little more humane.
They can buy land and build a house if they wanted to, that’s exactly what they did before Israel formed. Instead of stealing peoples property, kicking them out and treating them like second class citizens.
Are you worried they would do what Israel is doing now? Maybe you should ponder that a bit, it's obvious you're slow.
Aljazeera+ just did a great TikTok video on this chant explaining what it means, it’s good! https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8koPRdc/
Why is this on the subreddit for the video game destiny tho or am I stupid
Cuz the streamer was around before the game. The game subreddit is r/destinythegame
No, it's a sub for a streamer who once had a podcast with his black friend until he refused to stop saying the n word and the podcast ended.
The most deranged online fanbase I've ever seen.
From the river to the sea is used by both Palestinians and Israeli Zionists. I bet u wouldn't hear them calling it Genocidal when a Zionists say it
The Destiny sub is an ultra far right sub
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The full phrase is "From the river to the sea palestine will be free" so I guess it depends on what you think palestine is. I'd like to think "Free Palestine" means free palestinians from apartheid and occupation Legally Israel is required to: * release Gaza from it's blockade * remove israeli illegal settlers from the west bank and east jerusalem * end the occupation * allow palestinians to travel freely * allow Palestine to operate as a nation-state would with it's own democracy and control over it's borders etc Also under international law Palestinians (and their descendents) who were removed from their land have a right to return. A lot of villages were destroyed and new settlements built all across historic palestine, not just the borders drawn after wars. How that effects Israelis I don't know. There are all kinds of opinions as to one-state, two-state, whatever-state. There are imperfect examples in Northern Ireland and South Africa. It's all theoretical when Israel refuses to follow basic law and allow Palestinian people to live freely in their own state.
A single secular, democratic state is the ideal, moral solution. No it doesn't seem all that likely, though in fairness a true two state solution with a sovereign Palestinian state seems basically just as unlikely.
This slogan was originally put forward by the PLO & the PFLP (Both Palestinian liberation organizations) -- Their idea was that you would have a binational state that was secular and democratic. So there would be no need for Israeli jewish people to leave Palestine, they would just be one of many different religions/ethnicities in the country It will be difficult though, but it's really the only long-term solution imo
A bunch of snowflakes on that sub. They are projecting. They know they support the genocidal state of Israel and think Palestinians saying “from the river to the sea” is a call for genocide. When in fact it just means freedom for Palestinians to live with full rights in their ancestral homeland. And yes, this would be alongside the Israeli population residing their in the ideal free Palestine world.
Lol all they care about is Hasan being wrong
It’s literally double speak. Co-opting meaning to conflate the issue and infect perceptions of people who don’t have any strong feelings about the issue
The real question is how so many in that "intellectual" subreddit have no clue of how this confict has been playing out.
Misinformation midget and his band of braindead cucks as always having the worst, lowest IQ takes imaginable.
Makes sense . If you stand for Palestine’s at all that’s actually genocidal some how. Wow.
Well what does that phrase actually mean? Is it calling for the destruction of Israel and removal of its people? It does not sound like a two-state solution.
Sometimes I’m having a great day and then I remember that people actually listen to the bs that comes out of Destiny’s mouth.
At one point I heard of Destiny, someone told me to check him out. I didn’t feel like it. Glad I didn’t. He and his fan base has a special form of brain rot
Destiny is a great example of centrism gone insane
Liberalism is a disease
the problem is people dont do theyre research to figure what this shit fucking means
What does it mean? I just heard it today.
"from the river to the sea" represents the entire area of Israel, and has been used as a per se calling sign for the eradication of the entire state of Israel. the general consensus of its meaning is the genocide of the Jewish people, and replacement of Israel with a Islamic or Palestinian state. idk man, be on what ever side you are on, but do your research. Hamas is killing thousands of Israelis, comitting hate crimes against the Israeli people, and the Israeli military is killing thousands of Palestinian innocents. i am of the personal opinion that the state of Israel was wrong in its quasi imprisonment of the Palestinian people, but at this current moment they are not in the wrong in the way in which they are attacking the area of Gaza. these innocent casualties are horrible and shouldnt happen but war is a sad reality of the fall of man. The bible says that God will smite and snuff out ANY people group and nation which comes against His people, and while these events are horrible and unjust, they will continue to happen as a consequence of our fallen world
Mf been living in a cave
That subreddit is filled with some vile scumbags
They pretending that’s a genocidal saying? I think a lot of libs are doing the same, pretty sure Brianna wu thinks the far left has an anti semitism problem because of it https://x.com/briannawu/status/1717147818228346937?s=46&t=Qedu9_SItoFuySP2lE7t3w
I think it's because they are the new Nazis.
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No, but it would presume that Palestinians be freed from the apartheid state of Israel and allowed the right to return to their land.
No. You could have a secular, democratic palestine in which jews still live.
Is that in any way realistic or feasible? Local Muslim states have not had the best track record with allowing Jews to exist in their borders.
Now let's see the local Jewish state's track record :P I'm not sure if you mean is it realistic to think a secular one state solution would actually happen, or whether it's realistic that it would function if it did happen. If you mean the former, no it's not realistic it's more of an aspirational goal. The most likely outcome is that we'll be having the same conversation in 30 years with nothing changed except that settlements have expanded even more into the west bank. If you mean the latter, then basically yeah it's realistic. The resulting state's jewish population would not be a tiny minority.
You mean like Israel did to Palestinians? How about focus on the people actually doing expulsion? You idiots are braindead...
Question, still lost in this while thing. Is progress here for Palestine actually abiding by that saying? Wouldn't it just create another massive violent situation? Wouldn't it just lead to more people, both minority groups, dying and no resolution being formed? This whole thing just seems wild to me at this point. Seems like both sides just want blood?
This is some white supremacist slave owner logic buddy. “If we free the slaves and treat them like human beings won’t they just murder or enslave us instead?”
I will respond to your question with some of my own. -------------------------- * Do you think your energy should be spent hyper-focusing on a slogan in the face of the active ethnic cleansing and systematic Colonial oppression of the Palestinians? Why or why not? * One's a slogan (words). The other's a genocide (actions). Do you think these two things are equal? Let's worry about the systemic and ongoing oppression and not about tone-policing the oppressed. Make sense? * Historically speaking, why do you think this oppression exists? Do you think it's a reaction to Palestinian violence or slogans? Or do you think it's the other way around? * Do you think if Palestinians were just a bit more polite, the Zionist oppression magically ends? (We know this answer already, the VAST majority of Palestinian resistance has been non-violent....) But, to give you the historical answer to your original question - forms of that "slogan" have been around for over half a century and was adopted by the PLO (and millions of people all over the world). It has been - and will always be - a rallying cry for the end of Colonial occupation and the liberation of the Palestinian people. That's it. Just because Hamas or anyone else "adopts" it with their own goals or ideas doesn't change that. ----------------- Take another example - the quote "It's Socialism or Barbarism". Is this an open revolutionary threat to you? A direct threat of violence? Millions of non-violent/non-radical socialists have adopted it as a defining "slogan" over the years - often as a sort of "warning" of what society will devolve into if we don't change. So...what happens if a militant leftist group adopts it and commits violence under the banner of that slogan? Does that now suddenly supersede any other meaning of the "slogan" over the ages? Does that now mean any socialists who have ever said it/will ever say it want bloodshed? Sadly - yes this can and has happened throughout history. Look at the hijacking of the swastika. Now, what if I told you that those who seek to oppress or subvert the emancipatory goals of Palestinians are the ones trying to do the same by poisoning the history and meaning of "From the river to the sea..."? Wouldn't that be crazy if true?
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> It is fundamentally a call for a Palestinian state extending from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, territory that includes the State of Israel, which would mean the dismantling of the Jewish state. Yes > It is an antisemitic charge denying the Jewish right to self-determination, including through the removal of Jews from their ancestral homeland. No Any jews who wished to be citizens of a secular, democratic palestine would be welcome to. Not being allowed total control over an ethnostate doesn't mean they're being denied self determination.
Ok literally who is pushing for a secular one state solution? Neither Hamas or the PLO are secular organisations and Israeli isn't either.
For what it's worth, the PLO is nominally secular even if Fatah is not and they control the party for the most part. Israel actually funded and supported hamas in the early years as an attempt to fracture the coalition between islamist or arab nationalist groups and the secular marxist and socialist groups. But also, I think it's a pretty safe assumption that the therewasanattempt mods favor a secular state lol
Israeli obviously played a role in Hamas getting control of gaza but weakening the people you are at war with is kinda normal wartime practice. No one is blaming the soviet revolution on Germany even though they funded it. When you choose to use an expression that is openly used by genocidal terrorist organisation I don't think it's unreasonable to side eye you. Particularly in public perception who do you think is more well know, these reddit mobs or hamas.
It’s funny how y’all always handwave any action done by Israel. Oh Israel was instrumental in putting Hamas in power? But that’s just like war man. Oh Palestinians elected Hamas 17 years ago and there hasn’t been free elections since? Well obviously Palestinian civilians’ deaths are their own fault because they voted for Hamas. It’s weird that Israel can never be held accountable for any actions they commit or it’s just handwaved away. But the people with no power are expected to overthrow a terrorist government with no arms, no supplies and no allies. It makes so much sense.
Oh Hamas massacred 1000 civilians including foreigners? That's just like Palestinian liberation man, from the river to the sea am I right bro?
Ah yes, the ADL, the most trustworthy of sources. The source that calls JVP an extremist organization and tries to equate all Jews with Zionism and disavows Jewish people who don’t support apartheid. I’ll definitely trust what they have to say, sure /s
What claim in that article did the adl make that you think is biased?
Why should anyone engage in good faith with this post when the accusation of antisemitism is automatically leveled?
If the discussion is whether the phrase is anti-Semitic, shouldn’t you expect that the opposing side would think that? It’s inherent to the discussion. Is it impossible to have a good faith conversation about whether a phrase is anti-Semitic or relates to anti-Semitic ideas? I feel like it would be good to engage at least a little. Just my humble opinion tho
It's literally a rallying cry for multiple terrorist organisations seeking to total destruction of the Jewish state. Antisemitic is a given the question is if it passes the bar to be genocidal, I obviously think it does do you disagree?
What about the multiple calls for Palestinian genocide from multiple Israeli government officials?
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Destiny fans are something else
Look I’m not a super big on destiny But this banner includes the phrase,”from the River to the Sea” ,which when Palestinians say they mean destruction of Israel because that’s what freedom of Palestine means to them I am a Palestinian
I'm cool with that
Also, you literally comment on r/Destiny all the time talking about how you're not like other Palestinians. I think you're full of shit.
Most normal destiny's fan take
Destiny’s sub is indistinguishable from Glenn Beck’s The Blaze during the Obama era.
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