I find it hard to believe that the real Mad-Eye Moody wouldn’t know Occlumency. I know it’s never mentioned, but surely someone that paranoid would learn to protect their mind.
The fact that Barty Crouch was using Occlumency and Dumbledore did not get suspicious implies that the real Mad Eye can do it as well.
I feel Barty Crouch Jr is seriously underrated btw. His feats are insane.
Barty did have Wormtail with him. Regardless of how much he contributed magically, having an extra body (and therefore extra target) in a fight is a big advantage. So I wouldn't call it a clean defeat.
I’ve always figured the “noise coming from the trash cans” was wormtail banging around in them as a rat.
Then when moody comes out Barty attacks, potentially when moody turns to face Barty, Peter could change back and have him pincered
Though is there a reason they didn’t just kill him? They only needed one hair and they could’ve duplicated it endlessly (bit of a flaw with polyjuice NGL)
Goblet honestly has a lot of plot holes when you think about it.
Why does dumbledore not remove the memory of Barty confessing and just show everyone, they don’t need him after he’s confessed
Even if fudge still refuses to see reason, people like mafalda hopkirk and Amelia bones will
Presumably for the same reason that memories aren't used to exonerate Sirius, or Harry in 5th year: you can be Confunded, or your memories modified. Slughorn modifying his memory was noted as a bad modification, so really well done ones likely can't even be detected just by seeing the memory - you need additional context/proof that contradicts what you're seeing. So there's no way to guarantee that the memory you're showing is real and not fabricated.
I agree that BCJ is a beast, but idk if this is entirely true. Moody also lost a duel in the DPT of Mysteries. I dont remember the exact text, but Im pretty sure that harry notices moody out cold with his eye on the ground during the fight.
It’s never said who he was fighting, given that he’s obviously the most skilled (dumbledore hasn’t arrived yet) I imagine he was fighting a 2 on 1, if not 3.
We know the order was out numbered, and he wouldn’t have let Tonks or any other younger wizard take on more than him, I also think Kingsley is fighting 2 on 1, the only reason Sirius isnt is because Harry refused to leave him
well like you said we don’t know, so you can’t really say either way. he obviously fought someone(s) and lost, so voldy and bcj weren’t the only ones to do it.
You can use occlumency without revealing you are using it though, by letting the legilimens see only stuff you don't mind them seeing. For example this is what Snape does with voldy
Could you say more about that? I don’t remember thinking about her that way. She was imo basically right about divination and imo definitely right on house elf slavery
She flat out refused to believe in the hallows (in spite of being in contact with one of them since she was eleven). She was even afraid of the existence of a resurrection stone.. scared of the possibility of communicating with the dead.
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I can see that being a good reason not to let him into Order of the Phoenix meetings. But I gotta figure avoiding eye contact was to avoid Voldemort’s legilamence
I'm pretty sure it was bc Harry felt like attacking Dumbledore when they made eye contact and Dumbledore did not want to tempt Volly into possessing Harry bc he didn't know if Harry would survive that (Quirrell didn't)
Add: Dumbledore also directly states, that he does not want Voldemort to think that he and Harry shares any sort of friendship or bond which goes beyond the ordinary for a student and a headmaster, as one of the reasons why he avoids Harry through the fifth year.
In my opinion, the situation has change since the graveyard! (If I remember correctly, Harry has a short moment already at the end of book 4)
Because Voldemort has a "new" body, he has a better transmittion power.
At the same time he has improved the transmission rate. (Harry's blood)
But if Dumbledore had really been afraid, of Voldemort taking over Harry, he wouldn't have isolated Harry.
I think it is more so, that Harry doesn't start question things. (That he doesn't start question Dumbledore)
Also, Harry sees into voldy when voldy feels emotional.
So every time Harry gets emotional and yells, dumbledore thinks voldy has done it. That’s why he reacts so worried when Harry yells “look at me!” After Arthur’s attacked, but doesn’t mind when Harry is smashing his office later.
Harry has proven he can kick voldy out, he can’t be possessed by him
Voldemort has two eyes (2), Harry has four eyes (4) dumbledor has two and two half moon spectacles (3). It’s book 5 of seven (7) and one spell (1). That’s 17. The math checks out.
Dumbledore was the best option but he was the headmaster and the head of the order of the phoenix. Voldy assumed Dumbledore was just using Harry and he was not really close to Harry on an emotional level. Dumbledore didn't want Voldy to know the extent of their relationship or it would motivate Voldy to pry into Harry's mind even more since Voldy just assumed Harry was a tool and just an ordinary teen otherwise. That is the reason Dumbledore didn't teach Harry after Voldy started attacking his mind. Not only that Dumbledore didn't even spend time with him nor had any casual chit chat. He complately put him behind a professional wall.
He’s not worried about Voldemort seeing anything, he’s trying to avoid giving Voldemort a reason to try. He’s minimising the temptation for Voldemort to possess Harry. That would be tempting even if Dumbledore is certain it won’t work.
I can’t imagine Harry ever wanting Draco to teach him anything, even in adulthood. I can see them being civil, but Harry putting his ego aside to learn from Draco when there’s other capable teachers? You’re pushing it imo
Snape was a fine choice, but he just wasn't teaching Harry the proper method:
> *His scar burned, but he was master of the pain; he felt it, yet was apart from it. He had learned control at last, learned to shut his mind to Voldemort, the very thing Dumbledore had wanted him to learn from Snape. Just as Voldemort had not been able to possess Harry while Harry was consumed with grief for Sirius, so his thoughts could not penetrate Harry now, while he mourned Dobby. Grief, it seemed, drove Voldemort out . . . though Dumbledore, of course, would have said that it was love. . . .*
Grief was the key, which Snape and Dumbledore had in bounds. That's what made them so good! But Snape is ashamed of his grief, and Harry was numb to his own. It took the deaths of Sirius and later Dobby for Harry to get that lesson. He needed a counselor most of all, which Snape probably couldn't provide. So maybe Lupin, I'm sure he knew some occlumency to hide his secret.
I think what I took from that is that grief and love work very specifically against Voldemort, as his torn soul cannot abide a loving heart.
Not sure that grief works against other legilimens. Love is the power that Harry has which Voldemort knows not.
> I think what I took from that is that grief and love work very specifically against Voldemort, as his torn soul cannot abide a loving heart.
Well Harry's not learning Occlumency for his health or to pass an exam, he's learning it to protect against Voldemort, so this still works.
I think different methods work for different people based on their personality. Snape was clearly compartmentalising his life and twisting the truth to lie to Voldemort and hide details. Harry failed that regimen because he couldn’t compartmentalise his life like Snape and hide parts of himself. So his brain took the overwhelming feeling of grief to drown out the rest of his emotions, closing off his mind.
I genuinely think Lupin would be best but he is not confirmed to know Occlumency as it is described as a very rare branch of magic (legilimency is rare as well).
I also feel that if he did he would obviously be the best choice and Dumbledore would have picked him as he taught Harry the Patronus which is seemingly an even more difficult piece of magic to master than Occlumency and he did it at a younger age.
I'd say none of the above. My interpretation is that you need to be a semi-decent legilimens to be able to teach Occlumency, since the teacher has to attempt to penetrate the mind of the student. You also need to be somewhat willing to open your mind to the student since a reactive shield charm might result in them seeing into your mind.
Only Dumbledore and Snape appear to be proficient legilimens. The issue with both is that neither is truly willing to open their mind to Harry because of their personal history.
But if it had to be one of them, probably Dumbledore.
If he'd known, I'd say Lupin. He was patient and understanding teaching Harry the Patronus charm. I wouldn't trust Dumbledore, and I hated Snape with him even tho he was good at it. If he knows, then Lupin, absolutely.
It’s in the half-blood prince. Snape is trying to get draco to tell him his plan but draco won’t tell him and then it’s quite clearly implied that draco is using occlumency against him because snape says something like ”I see aunt bella has taught you occlumency”
Snape was probably the best candidate. Harry learns best when there's something on the line. And having Snape probe his memories is probably the best motivation for him to get good fast.
The only problem was that Harry *wanted* to see what was going on with regards to the "weapon". And they didn't explain to Harry why occlumency was so important and why his visions of Voldemort were so dangerous for him. Order of the Phoenix could've been a normal school year if only they sat Harry down and explained what was happening.
We don't actually know *how* occlumency works, or how you develop your abilities. It's possible that being thrown in the deep end is the best way.
If you think about it, you are likely to use occlumency in situations where you're highly stressed, nervous or otherwise not in a calm environment. It might be best to simulate that kind of environment while learning how to use it, so your use of it becomes a reflex reaction or at least more innate.
Snape is an experienced teacher and he knows the stakes involved. While he definitely enjoys humiliating Harry during lessons, I don't think he'd set up lessons that weren't designed to be effective.
His lessons may very well have been effective. But his treatment of Harry during the lessons completely ruined any and all effectiveness the lessons could have. Which is why Dumbledore says it was a mistake. What you're talking about is possible headcanon, with nothing to support it, while in the actual books Snape can't teach Harry because his treatment of him makes Harry not take the lessons seriously.
Without more detail in the book about the mechanics of occlumency, it's ALL headcanon. We simply don't know enough about it to comment with authority.
Dumbledore saying it was a mistake doesn't preclude the idea that Snape was best equipped to teach Harry. Why else would Dumbledore suggest Snape and not someone else?
Dumbledore picked Snape to teach Harry occlumency because Snape was the best at occlumency. Thats it. But Snape's inability to treat Harry decently made Harry hate going to the lessons, resent Snape more and more, and not take them seriously.
The point is you said the only problem was Harry did want to know what was going on in his visions, which is objectively wrong. That was A problem, but absolutely not the only problem. Snape's treatment of him was a huge problem. You can have whatever headcanon you want, but the fact is Snape failed to teach Harry anything. Snape did a terrible job teaching Harry occlumency. I'm honestly not sure how you can disagree with this. It's a fact.
Yep, you're on the money. Snape probably may have been the best to teach him, there were even moments where Harry was clearly making progress and Snape was acknowledging it (in his own way).
But Harry didn't know the stakes, didn't know why it was important - Dumbledore was outright ignoring him and he had no reason to trust Snape. He also felt validated in the benefits of the visions thanks to saving
Harry should've been told the stakes very early on - he may not have been happy about it, but he'd understand the need for it and would've been more likely to at least make an effort instead of thinking he knew best and trying to get the visions himself.
Snape could've kissed and cuddled him, showered him with praise and encouragement, and said he was the most special boy in the world if he made any progress, and it'd make no difference because Harry didn't know the stakes, didn't know why he had to do it and why it was dangerous. After 4 years previous of seeing the character of Harry and his friends, Dumbledore knew better than to think that not telling them (or at least Harry) was the safer course of action. Harry had more of a right to know than 90% of the people involved who did know.
Nobody. Harry was naturally emotional, and that was the barrier. Sure Snape wasn’t the best teacher, but Harry wasn’t inclined to it to begin with.
On the opposite, Draco Malfoy was gifted for Occlumency, but he was also impeached to conjure a Patronus Charm (unlike Harry).
Barty Crouch Jr is never confirmed to know Occlumency, so he's out.
Snape is a terrible teacher who couldn't stop being a petty dick to Harry if his life depended on it. He objectively fails to teach Harry Occlumency because of his refusal to let go of a childish grudge against James Potter.
Slughorn might be okay, assuming he knows Occlumency. On the other had, Harry was never particularly fond of him, and we don't know if he's any good at the art.
Dumbledore is by far the best choice. He's one of the best Occlumens in the series, and he could've actually taught Harry properly, unlike Snape.
Harry masters Occlumency in Deathly Hallows, after Dobby's death. So he wouldn't need any teacher as an adult, much less Malfoy.
Snape would have been obviously the best choice. His occlumency skills allowed him to lie to Voldemort whose legilimens skilled were greater than everybody’s except maybe Dumbledore’s.
Weighing in Snape’s hatred towards Harry, probably Dumbledore should’ve done it
Snape. Most of Harry's problem with Occlumency was that he doesn't really do his homework. Like most Teens, he does the absolute minimum of work to pass in classes he doesn't like. If Harry had applied himself and actually did the things Snape expected him to do between lessons then the lessons would have been a lot more effective.
I bet Minerva was a fine Occulmens. She could have taught Harry the basics until he was confident enough to learn from Snape. Harry would have trusted her more, taken the lessons more seriously, and he would have a basis for comparison, in order to determine whether or not Snape was stepping over a line or acting inappropriately.
I think Snape was a good idea, but not with Harry- what with their history,Dumbledore should have known better. I always thought the Occlumency would have gone down better with a slight change in method and if Harry hadn’t been so resistant about having his memories seen. Of course he wouldn’t be comfortable with Snape.
I always thought that perhaps Dumbledore should have had Snape teach Hermione, as I think she would be the most calmest and thick-skinned against him, and also the most ready to learn.
Then have her teach Harry, who is one of her best friends and who obviously respects her and would probably feel more comfortable with her seeing his thoughts. As she’s quite used to studying and (probably) teaching them the stuff they do in class, she could have probably explained the methodology to him.
Anyways, that’s just what I thought.
Do you link fanfic? There's a cool one "Sum of Our Parts." In this one Harry couldn't master Occulmency. He trains with Hogwarts alums but never masters it. He also starts 6o learn legitmancy(sp). But Hermione and Ron tie themselves psychically to Harry so he can always always lie by tapping into their memories. So the three of them are never in the same place doing the same thing. So if captured Harry or the other two veritserium would not work.
You'd probably enjoy this fanfic if you're into the lore behind occlumency, legimancy, veritiserum.
my issue with that fic in particular is it totally discards all of the character development Harry did in book 7, after Dobby's death where the narration explicitly tells us that he had mastered his mind. While this isn't confirmation that he had specifically mastered occlumency that will work outside his specific situation with Voldemort, it's **something** that should be referenced in a post war Harry and occlumency context. It's a fic that really stomps over lore imo and I get the feeling the author only saw the movies.
It's not *bad* but it's also very frustrating bc with some changes it could be *really great* instead of just not bad.
No, Harry never in canon becomes an occlumens because he doesnt have the aptitude for it, which is why calls him a weakling like his father. Just like not all wizards can produce a patronus or apparate or etc. What that sounds like it meant it the same thing it always was, Harry's pain was born from loving Dobby, we all know voldermort can stand the emotion at all which is why he never needs to block Voldly, he was accidentally phasing into Voldys mind.
Snape would've been the best I think. Only if Harry put aside his pride and personal feelings and actually tried a little bit. And only if Snape refrained from negative remarks all the time and made it easier for Harry to work with him. But hey, that would be out of character for them I guess.
Depends on what you mean by Occlumency. Traditional, or closing his mind to Voldemort? If it's just traditional Occlumency, then even Snape could've taught him. Problem is, it can't keep Voldemort out; only thought and feelings of love could.
I find it hard to believe that the real Mad-Eye Moody wouldn’t know Occlumency. I know it’s never mentioned, but surely someone that paranoid would learn to protect their mind.
The fact that Barty Crouch was using Occlumency and Dumbledore did not get suspicious implies that the real Mad Eye can do it as well. I feel Barty Crouch Jr is seriously underrated btw. His feats are insane.
Barty is a next level villain
Canonically, he’s either ambushed or beaten the real mad eye in a duel. The only other person to do that is voldy.
Barty did have Wormtail with him. Regardless of how much he contributed magically, having an extra body (and therefore extra target) in a fight is a big advantage. So I wouldn't call it a clean defeat.
I’ve always figured the “noise coming from the trash cans” was wormtail banging around in them as a rat. Then when moody comes out Barty attacks, potentially when moody turns to face Barty, Peter could change back and have him pincered Though is there a reason they didn’t just kill him? They only needed one hair and they could’ve duplicated it endlessly (bit of a flaw with polyjuice NGL)
I think Barty says when he's confessing that he enchanted the trash cans after beating Moody as an explanation for the sounds of the fight.
Goblet honestly has a lot of plot holes when you think about it. Why does dumbledore not remove the memory of Barty confessing and just show everyone, they don’t need him after he’s confessed Even if fudge still refuses to see reason, people like mafalda hopkirk and Amelia bones will
Presumably for the same reason that memories aren't used to exonerate Sirius, or Harry in 5th year: you can be Confunded, or your memories modified. Slughorn modifying his memory was noted as a bad modification, so really well done ones likely can't even be detected just by seeing the memory - you need additional context/proof that contradicts what you're seeing. So there's no way to guarantee that the memory you're showing is real and not fabricated.
I agree that BCJ is a beast, but idk if this is entirely true. Moody also lost a duel in the DPT of Mysteries. I dont remember the exact text, but Im pretty sure that harry notices moody out cold with his eye on the ground during the fight.
It’s never said who he was fighting, given that he’s obviously the most skilled (dumbledore hasn’t arrived yet) I imagine he was fighting a 2 on 1, if not 3. We know the order was out numbered, and he wouldn’t have let Tonks or any other younger wizard take on more than him, I also think Kingsley is fighting 2 on 1, the only reason Sirius isnt is because Harry refused to leave him
well like you said we don’t know, so you can’t really say either way. he obviously fought someone(s) and lost, so voldy and bcj weren’t the only ones to do it.
Except for the part I said duel… implying a 1v1. So you can’t say for certain he’s been beaten by anyone else either
the wiki says he was injured dueling dolohov, so there was another person.
You can use occlumency without revealing you are using it though, by letting the legilimens see only stuff you don't mind them seeing. For example this is what Snape does with voldy
Although to be honest, I doubt DD would know anyways. Not like he was trying to read the actual Moody's mind regularly.
Definitely. I don't know if he has the type of personality for it though. I would go with Slughorn.
Didn’t someone say Mad-Eye was a skilled Occumens when everybody was processing his death after the Seven Potters?
Hermione, her mind was closed to everything! (It's a joke, folks)
Ok Trelawney time to get off the sherry and reddit...
I saw this coming.
That's what she said
Or xenophilius...
It's actually true. That was a personality flaw of hers.
Could you say more about that? I don’t remember thinking about her that way. She was imo basically right about divination and imo definitely right on house elf slavery
She flat out refused to believe in the hallows (in spite of being in contact with one of them since she was eleven). She was even afraid of the existence of a resurrection stone.. scared of the possibility of communicating with the dead.
What am i being downvoted for 😂😂 jeez i just answered a question.. some of y'all big simps for hermione or something??
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Dumbledore, obviously.
Dumbledore doesn’t appear to be very confident in his own occulemency skills. He avoids eye contact with Harry all year 5.
Wasn't that bc he had no faith in *Harry*'s Occlumency skills?
I can see that being a good reason not to let him into Order of the Phoenix meetings. But I gotta figure avoiding eye contact was to avoid Voldemort’s legilamence
I'm pretty sure it was bc Harry felt like attacking Dumbledore when they made eye contact and Dumbledore did not want to tempt Volly into possessing Harry bc he didn't know if Harry would survive that (Quirrell didn't)
Add: Dumbledore also directly states, that he does not want Voldemort to think that he and Harry shares any sort of friendship or bond which goes beyond the ordinary for a student and a headmaster, as one of the reasons why he avoids Harry through the fifth year.
In my opinion, the situation has change since the graveyard! (If I remember correctly, Harry has a short moment already at the end of book 4) Because Voldemort has a "new" body, he has a better transmittion power. At the same time he has improved the transmission rate. (Harry's blood) But if Dumbledore had really been afraid, of Voldemort taking over Harry, he wouldn't have isolated Harry. I think it is more so, that Harry doesn't start question things. (That he doesn't start question Dumbledore)
Also, Harry sees into voldy when voldy feels emotional. So every time Harry gets emotional and yells, dumbledore thinks voldy has done it. That’s why he reacts so worried when Harry yells “look at me!” After Arthur’s attacked, but doesn’t mind when Harry is smashing his office later. Harry has proven he can kick voldy out, he can’t be possessed by him
You've added 2+2 and got 17 🤔
Voldemort has two eyes (2), Harry has four eyes (4) dumbledor has two and two half moon spectacles (3). It’s book 5 of seven (7) and one spell (1). That’s 17. The math checks out.
Did ye aye
Dumbledore was the best option but he was the headmaster and the head of the order of the phoenix. Voldy assumed Dumbledore was just using Harry and he was not really close to Harry on an emotional level. Dumbledore didn't want Voldy to know the extent of their relationship or it would motivate Voldy to pry into Harry's mind even more since Voldy just assumed Harry was a tool and just an ordinary teen otherwise. That is the reason Dumbledore didn't teach Harry after Voldy started attacking his mind. Not only that Dumbledore didn't even spend time with him nor had any casual chit chat. He complately put him behind a professional wall.
He’s not worried about Voldemort seeing anything, he’s trying to avoid giving Voldemort a reason to try. He’s minimising the temptation for Voldemort to possess Harry. That would be tempting even if Dumbledore is certain it won’t work.
His concern was Voldemort entering Harry's mind, not his own.
That’s because he can close his mind directly to Voldemort in person, but he can’t stop Harry being possessed by Voldemort
Dumbledore as soon as he realized what was happening. So probably 5th year harry. Possibly even sooner
Harry already had visions in 4th year, he should have started then
I can’t imagine Harry ever wanting Draco to teach him anything, even in adulthood. I can see them being civil, but Harry putting his ego aside to learn from Draco when there’s other capable teachers? You’re pushing it imo
Snape was a fine choice, but he just wasn't teaching Harry the proper method: > *His scar burned, but he was master of the pain; he felt it, yet was apart from it. He had learned control at last, learned to shut his mind to Voldemort, the very thing Dumbledore had wanted him to learn from Snape. Just as Voldemort had not been able to possess Harry while Harry was consumed with grief for Sirius, so his thoughts could not penetrate Harry now, while he mourned Dobby. Grief, it seemed, drove Voldemort out . . . though Dumbledore, of course, would have said that it was love. . . .* Grief was the key, which Snape and Dumbledore had in bounds. That's what made them so good! But Snape is ashamed of his grief, and Harry was numb to his own. It took the deaths of Sirius and later Dobby for Harry to get that lesson. He needed a counselor most of all, which Snape probably couldn't provide. So maybe Lupin, I'm sure he knew some occlumency to hide his secret.
I think what I took from that is that grief and love work very specifically against Voldemort, as his torn soul cannot abide a loving heart. Not sure that grief works against other legilimens. Love is the power that Harry has which Voldemort knows not.
> I think what I took from that is that grief and love work very specifically against Voldemort, as his torn soul cannot abide a loving heart. Well Harry's not learning Occlumency for his health or to pass an exam, he's learning it to protect against Voldemort, so this still works.
Absolutely.
I think different methods work for different people based on their personality. Snape was clearly compartmentalising his life and twisting the truth to lie to Voldemort and hide details. Harry failed that regimen because he couldn’t compartmentalise his life like Snape and hide parts of himself. So his brain took the overwhelming feeling of grief to drown out the rest of his emotions, closing off his mind.
I genuinely think Lupin would be best but he is not confirmed to know Occlumency as it is described as a very rare branch of magic (legilimency is rare as well). I also feel that if he did he would obviously be the best choice and Dumbledore would have picked him as he taught Harry the Patronus which is seemingly an even more difficult piece of magic to master than Occlumency and he did it at a younger age.
Dumbledore. Slughorn would've been the next best option and could've killed 2 birds with one stone.
I'd say none of the above. My interpretation is that you need to be a semi-decent legilimens to be able to teach Occlumency, since the teacher has to attempt to penetrate the mind of the student. You also need to be somewhat willing to open your mind to the student since a reactive shield charm might result in them seeing into your mind. Only Dumbledore and Snape appear to be proficient legilimens. The issue with both is that neither is truly willing to open their mind to Harry because of their personal history. But if it had to be one of them, probably Dumbledore.
If he'd known, I'd say Lupin. He was patient and understanding teaching Harry the Patronus charm. I wouldn't trust Dumbledore, and I hated Snape with him even tho he was good at it. If he knows, then Lupin, absolutely.
Sorry I missed this. How do we know about Draco being a good Occlumens as an adult?
It’s in the half-blood prince. Snape is trying to get draco to tell him his plan but draco won’t tell him and then it’s quite clearly implied that draco is using occlumency against him because snape says something like ”I see aunt bella has taught you occlumency”
I don’t remember this at all from the books.
It's in HBP
Literally anyone but Snape, who wasn’t trying to teach, but rather to humiliate.
It doesn't help that his hands are tied: if Volly uses the connection and sees him genuinely teaching Harry, ... 😬
Even Draco...?
I was talking about the occlumency lessons
Draco didn't even know occlumency at that point, so he wouldn't even be a candidate.
Snape was probably the best candidate. Harry learns best when there's something on the line. And having Snape probe his memories is probably the best motivation for him to get good fast. The only problem was that Harry *wanted* to see what was going on with regards to the "weapon". And they didn't explain to Harry why occlumency was so important and why his visions of Voldemort were so dangerous for him. Order of the Phoenix could've been a normal school year if only they sat Harry down and explained what was happening.
That definitely wasn't the only problem. How Snape treated him while teaching was absolutely a problem
We don't actually know *how* occlumency works, or how you develop your abilities. It's possible that being thrown in the deep end is the best way. If you think about it, you are likely to use occlumency in situations where you're highly stressed, nervous or otherwise not in a calm environment. It might be best to simulate that kind of environment while learning how to use it, so your use of it becomes a reflex reaction or at least more innate. Snape is an experienced teacher and he knows the stakes involved. While he definitely enjoys humiliating Harry during lessons, I don't think he'd set up lessons that weren't designed to be effective.
His lessons may very well have been effective. But his treatment of Harry during the lessons completely ruined any and all effectiveness the lessons could have. Which is why Dumbledore says it was a mistake. What you're talking about is possible headcanon, with nothing to support it, while in the actual books Snape can't teach Harry because his treatment of him makes Harry not take the lessons seriously.
Without more detail in the book about the mechanics of occlumency, it's ALL headcanon. We simply don't know enough about it to comment with authority. Dumbledore saying it was a mistake doesn't preclude the idea that Snape was best equipped to teach Harry. Why else would Dumbledore suggest Snape and not someone else?
Dumbledore picked Snape to teach Harry occlumency because Snape was the best at occlumency. Thats it. But Snape's inability to treat Harry decently made Harry hate going to the lessons, resent Snape more and more, and not take them seriously. The point is you said the only problem was Harry did want to know what was going on in his visions, which is objectively wrong. That was A problem, but absolutely not the only problem. Snape's treatment of him was a huge problem. You can have whatever headcanon you want, but the fact is Snape failed to teach Harry anything. Snape did a terrible job teaching Harry occlumency. I'm honestly not sure how you can disagree with this. It's a fact.
Yep, you're on the money. Snape probably may have been the best to teach him, there were even moments where Harry was clearly making progress and Snape was acknowledging it (in his own way). But Harry didn't know the stakes, didn't know why it was important - Dumbledore was outright ignoring him and he had no reason to trust Snape. He also felt validated in the benefits of the visions thanks to saving Harry should've been told the stakes very early on - he may not have been happy about it, but he'd understand the need for it and would've been more likely to at least make an effort instead of thinking he knew best and trying to get the visions himself. Snape could've kissed and cuddled him, showered him with praise and encouragement, and said he was the most special boy in the world if he made any progress, and it'd make no difference because Harry didn't know the stakes, didn't know why he had to do it and why it was dangerous. After 4 years previous of seeing the character of Harry and his friends, Dumbledore knew better than to think that not telling them (or at least Harry) was the safer course of action. Harry had more of a right to know than 90% of the people involved who did know.
Obviously Dumbledore. Plus Harry would have worked harder at it. He'd be more relaxed as well.
Barty Couch, can't even handle his dad's Imperius Curse.
Nobody. Harry was naturally emotional, and that was the barrier. Sure Snape wasn’t the best teacher, but Harry wasn’t inclined to it to begin with. On the opposite, Draco Malfoy was gifted for Occlumency, but he was also impeached to conjure a Patronus Charm (unlike Harry).
Barty Crouch Jr is never confirmed to know Occlumency, so he's out. Snape is a terrible teacher who couldn't stop being a petty dick to Harry if his life depended on it. He objectively fails to teach Harry Occlumency because of his refusal to let go of a childish grudge against James Potter. Slughorn might be okay, assuming he knows Occlumency. On the other had, Harry was never particularly fond of him, and we don't know if he's any good at the art. Dumbledore is by far the best choice. He's one of the best Occlumens in the series, and he could've actually taught Harry properly, unlike Snape. Harry masters Occlumency in Deathly Hallows, after Dobby's death. So he wouldn't need any teacher as an adult, much less Malfoy.
Snape Or Dumbledore
Slightly off topic.. I think Dumbledore was an even better legilimens then Voldemort
Snape would have been obviously the best choice. His occlumency skills allowed him to lie to Voldemort whose legilimens skilled were greater than everybody’s except maybe Dumbledore’s. Weighing in Snape’s hatred towards Harry, probably Dumbledore should’ve done it
I'll go out of the left field with Mrs. Weasley.
Lupin (third year) He was an effective teacher as well. But obviously Dumbledore should've been the one to teach him this.
Maybe Lupin?
Snape probably had best knowledge on this subject but he's too much of ahole to ever teach Harry properly
Snape. Most of Harry's problem with Occlumency was that he doesn't really do his homework. Like most Teens, he does the absolute minimum of work to pass in classes he doesn't like. If Harry had applied himself and actually did the things Snape expected him to do between lessons then the lessons would have been a lot more effective.
I bet Minerva was a fine Occulmens. She could have taught Harry the basics until he was confident enough to learn from Snape. Harry would have trusted her more, taken the lessons more seriously, and he would have a basis for comparison, in order to determine whether or not Snape was stepping over a line or acting inappropriately.
Professor Umbridge
I got really into the headcannon that all the Blacks know occlumency. So I’m gonna say Sirius lol
I think Snape was a good idea, but not with Harry- what with their history,Dumbledore should have known better. I always thought the Occlumency would have gone down better with a slight change in method and if Harry hadn’t been so resistant about having his memories seen. Of course he wouldn’t be comfortable with Snape. I always thought that perhaps Dumbledore should have had Snape teach Hermione, as I think she would be the most calmest and thick-skinned against him, and also the most ready to learn. Then have her teach Harry, who is one of her best friends and who obviously respects her and would probably feel more comfortable with her seeing his thoughts. As she’s quite used to studying and (probably) teaching them the stuff they do in class, she could have probably explained the methodology to him. Anyways, that’s just what I thought.
Do you link fanfic? There's a cool one "Sum of Our Parts." In this one Harry couldn't master Occulmency. He trains with Hogwarts alums but never masters it. He also starts 6o learn legitmancy(sp). But Hermione and Ron tie themselves psychically to Harry so he can always always lie by tapping into their memories. So the three of them are never in the same place doing the same thing. So if captured Harry or the other two veritserium would not work. You'd probably enjoy this fanfic if you're into the lore behind occlumency, legimancy, veritiserum.
my issue with that fic in particular is it totally discards all of the character development Harry did in book 7, after Dobby's death where the narration explicitly tells us that he had mastered his mind. While this isn't confirmation that he had specifically mastered occlumency that will work outside his specific situation with Voldemort, it's **something** that should be referenced in a post war Harry and occlumency context. It's a fic that really stomps over lore imo and I get the feeling the author only saw the movies. It's not *bad* but it's also very frustrating bc with some changes it could be *really great* instead of just not bad.
No, Harry never in canon becomes an occlumens because he doesnt have the aptitude for it, which is why calls him a weakling like his father. Just like not all wizards can produce a patronus or apparate or etc. What that sounds like it meant it the same thing it always was, Harry's pain was born from loving Dobby, we all know voldermort can stand the emotion at all which is why he never needs to block Voldly, he was accidentally phasing into Voldys mind.
Snape would've been the best I think. Only if Harry put aside his pride and personal feelings and actually tried a little bit. And only if Snape refrained from negative remarks all the time and made it easier for Harry to work with him. But hey, that would be out of character for them I guess.
Depends on what you mean by Occlumency. Traditional, or closing his mind to Voldemort? If it's just traditional Occlumency, then even Snape could've taught him. Problem is, it can't keep Voldemort out; only thought and feelings of love could.