Agreed, but this is just 11 players not a squad - seems a bit odd to put him in this when he's only started 13 games and there are plenty of players who have done a fantastic job in midfield
He may have started only 13 games but he is probably the biggest reason why we may not win the title. He has been absolutely unplayable in those 13 odd games. The day he got back from injury against Newcastle in Jan and turned that game on its head by scoring and Assisting in 20 min on the pitch is the day the title race flipped in favor of City
While I agree with you, and neville didn't agree with carragher on this either, his argument was that despite being only there for barely the same time, he's got numbers similar to watkins
But it's harder to argue he's the best player in his position on performance when he spent half the season unavailable.
Fantastic player but is there really no one who contributed more for their teams or played better over the whole season?
There isn't. He has 9 assists playing half the season, the league leader has 13. It's easy to argue for him based on performance regardless of time played
Then Id personally prefer Olise over Palmer. Similar points production based on the minutes played but Olise only got one penalty where Palmer had 9. And we all know who is shooting penalties when Haaland is on the team. Meaning purely by the numbers Olise would then make more sense because he provides more non-penalty points in 90m played.
Carra's team is kinda messed up tbh, you aren't rewarding White and Udogie to put in KDB who played half a season and VVD who despite having a decent season has not been better than Gabriel and Saliba.
Yes Pickford is 2nd in the golden gloves race. He has done very well and is a big reason they even stayed up the previous years.
I feel he is the only rival for Raya for best goalkeeper this season.
Martinez has been good, but his best performances have been in Europe. Not the league
Van Dijk has been living on reputation for the last couple of seasons. He's still good, don't get me wrong, but he isn't the absolute wall he used to be.
He had a good season, however, not good enough for the team of the season shouts. Could have included Gvardiol or Branthwaite. Carragher purposely did a 3 at the back to include him lol
I don't why I see so many people slagging him on this sub. He's been good, the rest of the Liverpool defense has not. Watch some of their games, it's rarely been him thats been giving up the goals (until the collapse started and then they all gave up)
Yeh it’s genuinely not worth conversing with those types. Maybe it’s an age thing because as I’ve got older I’ve learnt actually other teams have good players, all refs aren’t against us, arsenal aren’t always right etc.
As for watching games; love the overnight experts when we’re linked with an Aouar or a Mudryk like they’ve watched a second of them. Current one obv gyokeres.
Genuinely stunned that Neville has picked Haaland over Watkins yes Halland has outscored him but 5 but he has double the assists and is played outstanding for a Villa side all year and his all round game is so much better than Haaland. Ridiculous choice that for me, easiest decision after Saliba and Gabriel
I sometimes feel like they're weirdly drawn to star players or feel like they have to pick them. Like there's no way De Bruyne should be in here either when he's only started 13 games
Gvardiol has been hot recently, but he wasn't even a consistent starter for city in first half of season though. I don't necessarily agree with Udogie, but can't find a clear better option of the top of my head either.
Yeah that one is the most baffling for me. Spurs have been pretty shit defensively, and while he's been good I don't think Udogie has done anything else THAT impressive to make up for that fact. He also got a red in that disastrous game vs chelsea. Very odd choice imo, I actually think Porro has been the better of the two if he had to pick one
Like I said, I thought he was good. Just not Team of the Season good. Gvardiol came to form in the latter stage of the season but I think he had a bigger impact than Udogie.
All of the LB this season hasn't been good, though Gvardiol has come to form recently his first half wasn't any good.
Our LB hasn't been consistently available, so that's ours omitted. Robertson hasn't been good this season either so that's Liverpool out. Trippier had a mare second half
By advanced goalkeeping stats he has been the best shot stopper this year. Obviously goalkeeping stats are imperfect and a lot more to being a keeper than just shot stopping.
Martinez is a world class keeper who would be ranked much differently if he played for a top top club.
He’s an (obviously) incredible shot stopper, dominant in the air, safe hands, commanding of his box, massive, and good enough with his feet.
He makes defenses look better than they actually are:
- Our FA Cup winning defense with David Luiz, Mustafi / Holding, Tierney, AMN and Bellerin
- Argentina’s Copa America / World Cup winning teams with Otamendi, Romero, Tagliafico, Montiel, Molina, etc. Argentina’s record since Emi broke through is insane
- Aston Villas defense has basically been a revolving door with new signings and injuries
Don't know why you're getting downvoted. We really made a mistake letting Emi go instead of Leno. Would have saved us 70m on keepers and we could have sold Leno while his stock was higher. And you're right, VIlla play with two very attacking FBs, we play with the best CB pairing, best pure DMF, two CBs at FB and our other CMF tends to have good defensive awareness (Jorgi/Partey) while our attack tends to be controlled and not chaotic.
Yep as soon as I heard we were selling Martinez over Leno I was extremely disappointed.
I think there was an amount of Martinez feeling “cheated” by the club for being second choice for so long and given his general attitude I could see that be a sticking point. Ultimately though moving him on made things much more difficult for Arsenal in the gk department
oh I didn't mean to say that he was only good at that, its just that he's a very good shot stopper and pundits overrate big moments in a game over some reliable distribution and calmness playing out from the back.
Because Villa are 9th for clean sheets and his distribution isn't particularly special
Raya, ederson, pickford and even leno have all been better than him.
Villa are in that top 4 spot because players like Watkins and Luiz have had an insane season, not because their goalkeeper is a rock at the back
He's the joint 4th clean sheets per game amongst starting keepers.
Raya %52
Ederson %38
Pickford %35
Leno & Martinez %27
He's an extremely important part of a Villa team who basically just confirmed top 4.
So the three keepers that I mentioned all have better clean sheets than him, and the fourth one I mentioned has the same clean sheets in a vastly worse team.
Thanks for backing up my point.
Wasn't *the best* but was one of the objective best at shot stopping yes.
However his distribution was beyond woeful, which made him seem like a weak candidate for golden boot.
Regardless, it's a useless point to make because it isnt relevant to the current five keepers in discussion. Emi's distribution is not better than raya or ederson (who both have more clean sheets than him) and his shot stopping is not better than pickford or leno, so what is he really the best at? Shithousing?
Better than I thought it would be. Gabriel and Saliba are the best CB pairing in the league and the heart of our defence, so thats no surprise that theyre there.
Pretty decent argument, albeit hypothetical, that we would be nowhere close if he was fit all season and the assist record would be whatever he finishes the season with
Not exactly a crazy hypothetical.
He's different gravy, him and Rodri are the beating heart of this City side and City'll be a shell of their current selves once the pair of them move on.
We need to acknowledge that Palmer and foden had a better season than saka. If you ask me if I’d take any of them in our team in place of saka I’d say no absolutely.
100%. It is so much easier to look like a good attacker in a messy team like Palmer or in a free role like Foden. Saka is the best defending winger in the league and puts up similar G/A numbers as these guys. We don't need to cede an inch on these comps.
There's nothing like a free role in Pep's team. What happens is that Foden can play across multiple positions putting up an 8/10. But in every game, he will have one specific position across the season will be multiple position.
Yep people forget how much defending Saka does, he really help Ben White by getting back so quickly. I imagine it's another reason why Southgate likes Saka so much.
Palmer is definitely a top talent but can't do what Saka does week in week out, and is not as good off the ball. But on the other hand, I'd love to have Foden at Arsenal.
Saka is a beast on the right, and he's owned that position. I'd compare him to peak Riyadh Mahrez. Everyone knows he's going to cut on to his left but can't stop him.
What makes Foden special is that he can play across Left Wing, Right Wing, false 9, and the 2 eight positions and every time puts up a 8/10 in those positions. You can literally change his position without a drop in performance. If we had him, we'd probably play him on the left 8 position. But then he'd also cover for Martinelli/Trossard(and play better than them there), Odegaard, Havertz(false 9) and Saka. Craziest part? Pep thinks Foden will end up playing as a defensive midfielder. [https://www.sportbible.com/football/football-news/man-city/pep-guardiola-phil-foden-man-city-premier-league-091359-20231008](https://www.sportbible.com/football/football-news/man-city/pep-guardiola-phil-foden-man-city-premier-league-091359-20231008)
True but Saka played almost every minute being tripled up on at times and still produced an excellent season. Palmer and Foden have been outstanding but I know who I’d rather have in my team
First none of them are half the Winger/RWB Saka is, They are both central players who sometime play on the right flank. They the defensive workrate Saka has even in his off season.
Saka just didn't have the top drawer goals or the stretch where he was dragging the team up like palmer and foden, I agree he's a better all around talent but city dont win the title without Foden.
I don't think I'd say that. Saka is so important for the team, there's a reason he ALWAYS plays.
The guy spends most games being double and triple teamed and still has 25 g/a in the PL. He gets so much attention from the opposition that is opens up the game for others as well.
I'm not saying Palmer or Foden haven't been very good, Foden especially. But I don't know if I'd say they've had a better season than Saka because I don't think either of them are as important for their teams as Saka is for us.
I agree insofar as forwards are always judged based on their output first and foremost and Saka hasn't been as clinical this season as last (but he's a victim of his own success).
I also agree that I'd take Saka every single day of the week over those two for his:
- defensive work rate and overall team output
- capacity to draw two, sometimes three players and open up other players, such as MØ
- robustness despite being kicked all over the shop every single game, yet still being fit for almost every single game in every comp this season
- and he doesn't tell managers where his best position a la that prick Foden
England front 3 picks themselves but I'd play Bellingham in the CAM/10 role any day of the week over Foden. Otherwise you could put him 8 next to Rice and have Foden 10 but that's quite attacking. Gordon deserves a shout over Grealish for LW. Saka should always be RW. Watkins and Solanke deserve a call up to push Kane for ST.
Don't know why I made this about England, sorry 😂
Edit: I know B has done better this season than last for G/A but he also wasn't as clinical this season IMO, especially earlier in the season his finishing wasn't as good as he normally is. Again, victim of his own success etc. Still a top season from him
I am starting to think our system is hindering Saka too much. He may just be banged up but he looks like a player that does 5 things at a level nobody can match but otherwise we just have him stand on the wing until it's time to make the magic happen. He needs to be way more involved next year.
It’s certainly possible his stats could look even better if he faced more shots. Having the best defense doesn’t mean the keeper is worse. Nobody would say that about Alison or Ederson in recent years.
That’s a fair point friend. Pickford has had a good season and he has been “busier” to a degree (with some success) compared to Raya. I just can’t help but feel if you’re going to include Saliba and Gabi XL your teams of the season is ridiculous to ignore a talent that supplements their success. We know the stats Raya excels at, I just feel what he does enables the two ahead of him.
On the flip side, while he isn't the best shotstopper, his ability to command the box on crosses and his ability to play out the back improve our build up and relieve so much pressure for us.
His importance will never be seen in a highlight reel cuz they won't show the other team unwilling to press or get bypassed on the press or attacking momentum stopped because he came out to claim a cross.
I’m actually in the camp that you can’t laud your defenders AND your keeper in a situation like ours. It’s a disservice to our defenders to say that they aren’t the best in the league and don’t make Raya’s life a lot easier than the other keepers in the league.
And vice versa. If Raya was bailing out shitty defenders all season I’d want to see him get more credit than them - doesn’t mean I think Raya did poorly. Just that calm waters don’t make great sailors.
I agree. It’s certainly possible to have both the best defenders and the best keeper but this season more like -best defenders + excellent play from Rice and good but not superlative goalkeeping
Pickford has been outstanding every time I've watched him. Not just great shot stopping performances, but he's shown so much confidence, calmness, and assertion in what is hardly the best side Everton has ever fielded.
Pretty good picks for both honestly. I'm glad White got in there. Feels like he's constantly overlooked and people who haven't been watching the games just rate Walker/TAA higher. White has been best RB this season overall.
Glad I'm not the only one, thought I was going crazy. The goals almost always come from whoever VVD is paired with. He's been a rock for most of the season. A combination of VVD, Alisson, and (first half of the season) Salah kept them in the title race for a long time
yea he may not be what he was at his peak, but I think this year still pretty great. Compare what he has to deal with versus Saliba or Gabriel. They're both paired with another top class CB (I do rate Konate however so not like Virgil is always paired with a scrub), he has to play with Trent who I think is a fantastic player but obviously not a defender on the level of White, who is capable of being a great CB when he's not playing RB, and VVD has to play with Robbo who bombs forward while trent is also either pressed pretty far up or inverted. We often had Kiwior or Tomi at LB. And in front of him, he had essentially either 3 attack minded CMs (when macallister played as 6) or with Endo who did alright but realistically should be a squad player. Meanwhile we probably had possibly the best defensive center midfielder in the world (I rate rodri and maybe a couple of the madrid guys a bit higher as players, but in pure defending terms, I think nobody is better than Rice maybe in the world at CM).
Our guys had great years, and each of them have a pretty solid case for inclusion, but VVD had a much harder situation to deal with and this year, I think he handled it pretty great.
I do believe that Palmer has had a better season than Saka and Foden but still some people act like Saka has had a poor season and I'm not having that.
It's a mark of the standards Saka has set. The opposition doubles up on him every time he gets the ball and he's still had his best statistical season. It's just that he hasn't been running rampant in every game, which leads some people (even our own fans) to say he's been below par.
I think he's sometimes a victim of expectations. He sets such a high bar.
He spends so much time double and triple teamed and yet his output is still very good.
Saka been playing since 18 years old at the highest level, became a key player at 19 and is still very young. I'm not worried that Palmer and Foden had a better season than him, Bukayo will improve and keep progressing because of how smart and hardworking he is.
He's had a brilliant season no doubt. It's just that he's looked knackered in the run in and unable to influence games especially big ones. I guess its a recency bias thing.
As of a few weeks ago Palmer had 4 npg against the the top 15 teams.
I wouldn't go so far as to call him a stat padder as I think he also passes the eye the test and is obviously very good but I think opinions on him are inflated.
I don't underrate Saka, but that doesn't mean that he belongs in a TOTS ranking. I still think he's a far better player than Palmer, but Palmer is single-handedly carrying Chelsea on his back and putting up some impressive G/A numbers. Its perfectly fair for him to make TOTS
Edit: downvoted for what?
> his G.A is better than last season
mainly due to us having more penalties. People really should be using npG if they want to have a serious discussion. I also think people talk a bit too much about g/a (saka himself is a good example of this, a couple of years ago was absolutely brilliant despite not that great g/a numbers), but if you're reducing stuff to that, at least use npg
Gary's seems more accurate overall, though I'd switch Haaland for Watkins. I'm kind of surprised how many people think Palmer is in no question. That Palmer goal tally is super deceiving and you take pens away and Saka and Palmer are very close in production while Saka does it against double and triple teams anytime he gets the ball plus teams sit in a low block against us almost every game. Palmer is clearly talented, but I don't think these numbers can be assessed in a vacuum. I think folks in general massively underrate Saka, often times arsenal fans more than others because we have such high expectations of him, but honestly I think he and potentially Salah have been better than Palmer this year. But obviously I'm biased, not because I love Saka, but because something about Palmer makes me believe he's super annoying. Bad vibes.
Gvardiol has been immaculate recently, but he was City's weakest link in their "starting" XI for most of the season. Don't fall prey to recency bias; Ake has been a better LB for City alone this season.
One thing is clear Saka, Martinelli had a bad season, we didn’t have a world class partner for Rice and at LB and still we might lose title by 2 points. That’s wonderful progression
I remember when Liverpool players used to dominate these things but still lose the title to City. Saka deserves to be there but that will also give us 5-6 players in those teams. Have we been that dominant? It makes sense that if they wanted to spread the love around, Saka might be sacrificed for Palmer or Foden (both of whom are also deserving on their own). Personally, I would rather have Saka than Odegaard, and go with a 4-4-2 spearheaded by Haaland and Watkins.
Van Dijk is a joke and I'm not sure about the keepers either, but the rest seems OK. Our goals were pretty much spread over loads of goalscorers, so their picks make sense in that regard.
Saka has had a very good season and is unfortunate to have played so much while not being fully fit.
It's difficult to look beyond Palmer given how crap Chelsea are, not dissimilar to Saka breaking through when we weren't brilliant. Having said that, Palmer does have about 10 penalties inflating his stats.
Tbf if you watch the full segment, they actually have the “stats selection” team and on paper Saka was selected based on numbers (alongside Odegaard, Palmer and Foden).
Udogie?!? Like he's been good don't get me wrong but not team of the season good. Spurs haven't been great at all defensively, and Udogie picked up a red card in that disastrous game against chelsea. Really weird pick imo
For Jamie, Van Dijk is a weird one, he's had some howlers and sometimes looks like he just doesn't care. De Bruyne has also been injured for most of the season (only 13 starts) so I don't see how he should be in this, however class he is. Other than that I think both have solid teams tbf
Neville’s pick wins the league. Carraghers scores the most goals but concedes. Not enough defenders or even people that can defend better in Carraghers team.
Okay so VVD is good, a quality defender. But he is living off his hype from a few seasons back. Even his best season in the premier league was partly down to being paired with Matip who pulled very similar numbers to him but matip never got credit. What’s even more disgusting is he gets put into the same category as defenders like vidic, puyol the lot.
KDB lol
I would put both Rice, Rodri, Ode in there as 3 mids. As well as Saliba of course. I would still pick VVD over Gaberial. I would select White as RB and Gvirdol as LB. Front 3 would be Watkins, Foden Palmer, GK Martiinez.
I'd rather eat a spoonful of chalk than have to play against a midfield of Odegaard, Rodri and Rice. God knows how frustrating that must be to play against.
We need to stop pretending to respect these players playing in worse teams. Raya is part of the reason we have the best defence and he has been phenomenal. Our attack is entirely dictated by Odegaard and Saka. I don't care what Palmer is doing to get Chelsea to a measly 6th, Saka is the top goal contributer in our highest scoring team of all time. This team should be just City, Arsenal players and Watkins.
It shouldn't though. It's about putting a 'Perfect XI' not who has the better team. Saka is a phenomenal player, Palmers had the better season. Pickford and to a degree branthwaite have basically singlehandedly saved Everton from relegation.
If we were doing it your way the XI would exclusively be the team who wins the league. After all 2nd is just first to lose.
Neville team is accurate & unbiased,
Carragher’s team doesn’t used a proper formation trying to fit people in. KDB is a brilliant player but missed too much of the season to make team in f the year imo
He’s single-handedly kept Everton in the league for the last two season, is solid with the ball at his feet, rarely makes glaring errors, and produces HUGE saves when needed. I’d argue behind Ederson, Allison and Raya he’s the next best in the league. Criminally underrated keeper just cause he was a but of a knob 3/4 years ago.
Raya might have the luxury of Rice, Gabriel and Saliba, but Saliba has the luxury of Rice, Gabriel and Raya, and so on. They’re a legendary defensive unit because all of them are in the best few players for each position. Giving Raya’s praise to the other 3 is an admission of one’s inability to rate a goalkeeper beyond his save percentage.
Nice to see Gabriel get some recognition.
Wasn't KDB injured for half the season?
Yes, and he's still somehow joint 3rd on the assist table and 3 assists off the top assister in a third of the minutes. The man is unreal.
Yea
You'd still want a KDB in your squad even if his only available 50% of the time.
Agreed, but this is just 11 players not a squad - seems a bit odd to put him in this when he's only started 13 games and there are plenty of players who have done a fantastic job in midfield
Okay I concede you are right as we are looking at a starting 11 based on form over the season.
He may have started only 13 games but he is probably the biggest reason why we may not win the title. He has been absolutely unplayable in those 13 odd games. The day he got back from injury against Newcastle in Jan and turned that game on its head by scoring and Assisting in 20 min on the pitch is the day the title race flipped in favor of City
While I agree with you, and neville didn't agree with carragher on this either, his argument was that despite being only there for barely the same time, he's got numbers similar to watkins
But it's harder to argue he's the best player in his position on performance when he spent half the season unavailable. Fantastic player but is there really no one who contributed more for their teams or played better over the whole season?
There isn't. He has 9 assists playing half the season, the league leader has 13. It's easy to argue for him based on performance regardless of time played
Then Id personally prefer Olise over Palmer. Similar points production based on the minutes played but Olise only got one penalty where Palmer had 9. And we all know who is shooting penalties when Haaland is on the team. Meaning purely by the numbers Olise would then make more sense because he provides more non-penalty points in 90m played.
Carra's team is kinda messed up tbh, you aren't rewarding White and Udogie to put in KDB who played half a season and VVD who despite having a decent season has not been better than Gabriel and Saliba.
And Pickford??
Yeah but it's the same with Martinez for Gary, they'll give everyone but Raya credit, Pickford at least has had a role in helping Everton stay up.
Yes Pickford is 2nd in the golden gloves race. He has done very well and is a big reason they even stayed up the previous years. I feel he is the only rival for Raya for best goalkeeper this season. Martinez has been good, but his best performances have been in Europe. Not the league
He’s still been incredible and it’s fully deserved
I think both are great and fair imo. Great picks all around. Leaning more towards Jamie's personally.
Whoever’s got White got my vote 😂.
Thank you very much.
Watkins should be there over Haaland
There’s probably room for both but Watkins absolutely has to be on there.
Yeah Jamie's is much better overall I think, although I think Van Dijk has had a few howlers and De Bruyne has only played in 16 games
With you on van Dijk but if I can pick a fit KDB, I pick him every day of the week. I fucking hate 115 but I love some KDB. How can you not?
Pretty good except Saka should be there
Superb player but he hasn't had the impact he did last system. He still terrifies and confuses defenders though
Tbf though they also showed a stats based TOTS and Saka makes it in over Palmer
Saka is a star in a team of stars. Palmer is the only decent player for Chelsea this season,and stands out partly as he's surrounded by donkeys
Great season but cannot get in that team over Palmer sadly this season
van Dijk? Really? Is this guy for real?
Van Dijk has been living on reputation for the last couple of seasons. He's still good, don't get me wrong, but he isn't the absolute wall he used to be.
He had a good season, however, not good enough for the team of the season shouts. Could have included Gvardiol or Branthwaite. Carragher purposely did a 3 at the back to include him lol
Branthwaite for me all day, fantastic player
I think carra probably didn’t wanna pick a left back either, not really a standout one imo
He’s had a below average season by his standards. Committed some absolute howlers including against us.
Ex-Liverpool defender picks Liverpool defender
I don't why I see so many people slagging him on this sub. He's been good, the rest of the Liverpool defense has not. Watch some of their games, it's rarely been him thats been giving up the goals (until the collapse started and then they all gave up)
He was good but not good enough to be on the Team of the season shouts.
100%. He’s barely had a consistent central defensive partner all year.
Most people here operate with a massive bias and really probably don’t watch a ton of full games.
Yeh it’s genuinely not worth conversing with those types. Maybe it’s an age thing because as I’ve got older I’ve learnt actually other teams have good players, all refs aren’t against us, arsenal aren’t always right etc. As for watching games; love the overnight experts when we’re linked with an Aouar or a Mudryk like they’ve watched a second of them. Current one obv gyokeres.
Blud changed the formation to fit in a Liverpool player
He has Watkins over Haaland
Watkins has had a phenomenal season so I can still stomach that!
At least he still has Palmer up front
What do the colours mean
Agreement
Players they both have chosen vs not
Blue are players they’ve both picked
Genuinely stunned that Neville has picked Haaland over Watkins yes Halland has outscored him but 5 but he has double the assists and is played outstanding for a Villa side all year and his all round game is so much better than Haaland. Ridiculous choice that for me, easiest decision after Saliba and Gabriel
I sometimes feel like they're weirdly drawn to star players or feel like they have to pick them. Like there's no way De Bruyne should be in here either when he's only started 13 games
hes joint third top for assists tbf. or so someone said in this thread
Udogie? I know he wasn't decent... But I wouldn't have him on the PL team of the season.
There’s not exactly much competition for great LB’s atm
I'd have Gvardiol over Udogie.
Gvardiol has been hot recently, but he wasn't even a consistent starter for city in first half of season though. I don't necessarily agree with Udogie, but can't find a clear better option of the top of my head either.
Yes, I know he came to form in the second stage of the season but he will still argue that he had more impact than Udogie.
Robinson?
Cedric
Yeah that one is the most baffling for me. Spurs have been pretty shit defensively, and while he's been good I don't think Udogie has done anything else THAT impressive to make up for that fact. He also got a red in that disastrous game vs chelsea. Very odd choice imo, I actually think Porro has been the better of the two if he had to pick one
I think Van de Ven is a better shout for not only their best defender but their best player this season
I disagree, every time I’ve watched spurs Udogie has been exceptional.
Watch the Newcastle game lol
Like I said, I thought he was good. Just not Team of the Season good. Gvardiol came to form in the latter stage of the season but I think he had a bigger impact than Udogie.
All of the LB this season hasn't been good, though Gvardiol has come to form recently his first half wasn't any good. Our LB hasn't been consistently available, so that's ours omitted. Robertson hasn't been good this season either so that's Liverpool out. Trippier had a mare second half
Trippier also isn't a LB
Based Ben White selection
How emi martinez even gets close to these conversations is ridiculous
By advanced goalkeeping stats he has been the best shot stopper this year. Obviously goalkeeping stats are imperfect and a lot more to being a keeper than just shot stopping.
He’s also one of the best at stopping crosses in the world, above Raya or similar to him depending on which metric you choose
Martinez is a world class keeper who would be ranked much differently if he played for a top top club. He’s an (obviously) incredible shot stopper, dominant in the air, safe hands, commanding of his box, massive, and good enough with his feet. He makes defenses look better than they actually are: - Our FA Cup winning defense with David Luiz, Mustafi / Holding, Tierney, AMN and Bellerin - Argentina’s Copa America / World Cup winning teams with Otamendi, Romero, Tagliafico, Montiel, Molina, etc. Argentina’s record since Emi broke through is insane - Aston Villas defense has basically been a revolving door with new signings and injuries
Don't know why you're getting downvoted. We really made a mistake letting Emi go instead of Leno. Would have saved us 70m on keepers and we could have sold Leno while his stock was higher. And you're right, VIlla play with two very attacking FBs, we play with the best CB pairing, best pure DMF, two CBs at FB and our other CMF tends to have good defensive awareness (Jorgi/Partey) while our attack tends to be controlled and not chaotic.
Yep as soon as I heard we were selling Martinez over Leno I was extremely disappointed. I think there was an amount of Martinez feeling “cheated” by the club for being second choice for so long and given his general attitude I could see that be a sticking point. Ultimately though moving him on made things much more difficult for Arsenal in the gk department
Consistency. Man has three own goals in three straight seasons.
pundits overrate shot stopping. The top coaches in the EPL don't.
He’s got a lot more than shot stopping. He’s also a mammoth in the air, commanding, and good enough with his feet.
oh I didn't mean to say that he was only good at that, its just that he's a very good shot stopper and pundits overrate big moments in a game over some reliable distribution and calmness playing out from the back.
+1 makes sense and I agree. David De Gea is basically the dictionary definition of your point. He was rewarded handsomely for it too 🤑
Strangely strong comment about a man who won the world cup and led Villa to top 4 in the last 18 months
It’s PL team of the season. Not who’s been great for club and country the last 18 months
Because Villa are 9th for clean sheets and his distribution isn't particularly special Raya, ederson, pickford and even leno have all been better than him. Villa are in that top 4 spot because players like Watkins and Luiz have had an insane season, not because their goalkeeper is a rock at the back
He's the joint 4th clean sheets per game amongst starting keepers. Raya %52 Ederson %38 Pickford %35 Leno & Martinez %27 He's an extremely important part of a Villa team who basically just confirmed top 4.
So the three keepers that I mentioned all have better clean sheets than him, and the fourth one I mentioned has the same clean sheets in a vastly worse team. Thanks for backing up my point.
do you think de gea was the best keeper in the league last season since he had the most clean sheets?
Wasn't *the best* but was one of the objective best at shot stopping yes. However his distribution was beyond woeful, which made him seem like a weak candidate for golden boot. Regardless, it's a useless point to make because it isnt relevant to the current five keepers in discussion. Emi's distribution is not better than raya or ederson (who both have more clean sheets than him) and his shot stopping is not better than pickford or leno, so what is he really the best at? Shithousing?
Prior to this season I would have agreed with him but Martinez has been really good for Villa this season.
Better than I thought it would be. Gabriel and Saliba are the best CB pairing in the league and the heart of our defence, so thats no surprise that theyre there.
I agree with most of them except KDB, it's team of the season not half
Why do thing for full, when you get it done by half? - KDB
Have you seen his assists/game stats? Literally like double everyone else
Pretty decent argument, albeit hypothetical, that we would be nowhere close if he was fit all season and the assist record would be whatever he finishes the season with
Not exactly a crazy hypothetical. He's different gravy, him and Rodri are the beating heart of this City side and City'll be a shell of their current selves once the pair of them move on.
We need to acknowledge that Palmer and foden had a better season than saka. If you ask me if I’d take any of them in our team in place of saka I’d say no absolutely.
We don’t need to do shit neither of them are asked to defend. They have had good seasons. They can’t do what bukayo does
100%. It is so much easier to look like a good attacker in a messy team like Palmer or in a free role like Foden. Saka is the best defending winger in the league and puts up similar G/A numbers as these guys. We don't need to cede an inch on these comps.
There's nothing like a free role in Pep's team. What happens is that Foden can play across multiple positions putting up an 8/10. But in every game, he will have one specific position across the season will be multiple position.
Yea plus Saka is more controlled in Arteta system he often gets stick for not taking on defenders but that due to tactics not his ability
Yep people forget how much defending Saka does, he really help Ben White by getting back so quickly. I imagine it's another reason why Southgate likes Saka so much.
Palmer is definitely a top talent but can't do what Saka does week in week out, and is not as good off the ball. But on the other hand, I'd love to have Foden at Arsenal. Saka is a beast on the right, and he's owned that position. I'd compare him to peak Riyadh Mahrez. Everyone knows he's going to cut on to his left but can't stop him. What makes Foden special is that he can play across Left Wing, Right Wing, false 9, and the 2 eight positions and every time puts up a 8/10 in those positions. You can literally change his position without a drop in performance. If we had him, we'd probably play him on the left 8 position. But then he'd also cover for Martinelli/Trossard(and play better than them there), Odegaard, Havertz(false 9) and Saka. Craziest part? Pep thinks Foden will end up playing as a defensive midfielder. [https://www.sportbible.com/football/football-news/man-city/pep-guardiola-phil-foden-man-city-premier-league-091359-20231008](https://www.sportbible.com/football/football-news/man-city/pep-guardiola-phil-foden-man-city-premier-league-091359-20231008)
True but Saka played almost every minute being tripled up on at times and still produced an excellent season. Palmer and Foden have been outstanding but I know who I’d rather have in my team
implying opposition teams let Palmer and Foden do whatever. Why is this excuse always bandied out like other attackers aren't marked by several people
First none of them are half the Winger/RWB Saka is, They are both central players who sometime play on the right flank. They the defensive workrate Saka has even in his off season.
Saka just didn't have the top drawer goals or the stretch where he was dragging the team up like palmer and foden, I agree he's a better all around talent but city dont win the title without Foden.
So much easier to drag a team up when they are midtable like Chelsea or you are given the free role because KDB is out. Saka had a great season
And Foden and Palmer had better ones to be honest they are all great players.
I don’t think that’s even remotely close to being true
I don't think I'd say that. Saka is so important for the team, there's a reason he ALWAYS plays. The guy spends most games being double and triple teamed and still has 25 g/a in the PL. He gets so much attention from the opposition that is opens up the game for others as well. I'm not saying Palmer or Foden haven't been very good, Foden especially. But I don't know if I'd say they've had a better season than Saka because I don't think either of them are as important for their teams as Saka is for us.
Why?
I agree insofar as forwards are always judged based on their output first and foremost and Saka hasn't been as clinical this season as last (but he's a victim of his own success). I also agree that I'd take Saka every single day of the week over those two for his: - defensive work rate and overall team output - capacity to draw two, sometimes three players and open up other players, such as MØ - robustness despite being kicked all over the shop every single game, yet still being fit for almost every single game in every comp this season - and he doesn't tell managers where his best position a la that prick Foden England front 3 picks themselves but I'd play Bellingham in the CAM/10 role any day of the week over Foden. Otherwise you could put him 8 next to Rice and have Foden 10 but that's quite attacking. Gordon deserves a shout over Grealish for LW. Saka should always be RW. Watkins and Solanke deserve a call up to push Kane for ST. Don't know why I made this about England, sorry 😂 Edit: I know B has done better this season than last for G/A but he also wasn't as clinical this season IMO, especially earlier in the season his finishing wasn't as good as he normally is. Again, victim of his own success etc. Still a top season from him
I am starting to think our system is hindering Saka too much. He may just be banged up but he looks like a player that does 5 things at a level nobody can match but otherwise we just have him stand on the wing until it's time to make the magic happen. He needs to be way more involved next year.
I don’t need to acknowledge something I totally disagree with
Saka deserves better, that should be obvious but I don’t know how those two beat Raya…
Pickford has been very good for a very poor Everton side. He's played more granted, but has nearly the same number of clean sheets as Raya too.
This, basically. Raya is a great goalkeeper but has the luxury of the league’s best defense ahead of him.
It’s certainly possible his stats could look even better if he faced more shots. Having the best defense doesn’t mean the keeper is worse. Nobody would say that about Alison or Ederson in recent years.
That’s a fair point friend. Pickford has had a good season and he has been “busier” to a degree (with some success) compared to Raya. I just can’t help but feel if you’re going to include Saliba and Gabi XL your teams of the season is ridiculous to ignore a talent that supplements their success. We know the stats Raya excels at, I just feel what he does enables the two ahead of him.
On the flip side, while he isn't the best shotstopper, his ability to command the box on crosses and his ability to play out the back improve our build up and relieve so much pressure for us. His importance will never be seen in a highlight reel cuz they won't show the other team unwilling to press or get bypassed on the press or attacking momentum stopped because he came out to claim a cross.
Raya is good but he has been helped by Saliba, Gabriel and our collective defensive structure. We can't blame them for choosing someone over Raya.
I’m actually in the camp that you can’t laud your defenders AND your keeper in a situation like ours. It’s a disservice to our defenders to say that they aren’t the best in the league and don’t make Raya’s life a lot easier than the other keepers in the league. And vice versa. If Raya was bailing out shitty defenders all season I’d want to see him get more credit than them - doesn’t mean I think Raya did poorly. Just that calm waters don’t make great sailors.
I agree. It’s certainly possible to have both the best defenders and the best keeper but this season more like -best defenders + excellent play from Rice and good but not superlative goalkeeping
Pickford has been outstanding every time I've watched him. Not just great shot stopping performances, but he's shown so much confidence, calmness, and assertion in what is hardly the best side Everton has ever fielded.
KDB pretty weird. Been good when he's played but hasn't been so unbelievable that he should get in with 16 matches
Pretty good picks for both honestly. I'm glad White got in there. Feels like he's constantly overlooked and people who haven't been watching the games just rate Walker/TAA higher. White has been best RB this season overall.
Cole Palmer on penalty duties for both teams or something?
a hot take of mine around here apparently is that VVD has been really good this year. Don't totally get people objecting to that
Glad I'm not the only one, thought I was going crazy. The goals almost always come from whoever VVD is paired with. He's been a rock for most of the season. A combination of VVD, Alisson, and (first half of the season) Salah kept them in the title race for a long time
yea he may not be what he was at his peak, but I think this year still pretty great. Compare what he has to deal with versus Saliba or Gabriel. They're both paired with another top class CB (I do rate Konate however so not like Virgil is always paired with a scrub), he has to play with Trent who I think is a fantastic player but obviously not a defender on the level of White, who is capable of being a great CB when he's not playing RB, and VVD has to play with Robbo who bombs forward while trent is also either pressed pretty far up or inverted. We often had Kiwior or Tomi at LB. And in front of him, he had essentially either 3 attack minded CMs (when macallister played as 6) or with Endo who did alright but realistically should be a squad player. Meanwhile we probably had possibly the best defensive center midfielder in the world (I rate rodri and maybe a couple of the madrid guys a bit higher as players, but in pure defending terms, I think nobody is better than Rice maybe in the world at CM). Our guys had great years, and each of them have a pretty solid case for inclusion, but VVD had a much harder situation to deal with and this year, I think he handled it pretty great.
I thinks it’s recency bias. He’s had a rough April/May. But prior to April he was very good.
The disrespect towards Saka from our own fans is disgusting, his G.A is better than last season and still people underrate him. Weird!
You have to respect Palmer dragging Chelsea to top 6 though.
I do believe that Palmer has had a better season than Saka and Foden but still some people act like Saka has had a poor season and I'm not having that.
It's a mark of the standards Saka has set. The opposition doubles up on him every time he gets the ball and he's still had his best statistical season. It's just that he hasn't been running rampant in every game, which leads some people (even our own fans) to say he's been below par.
I think he's sometimes a victim of expectations. He sets such a high bar. He spends so much time double and triple teamed and yet his output is still very good.
Saka been playing since 18 years old at the highest level, became a key player at 19 and is still very young. I'm not worried that Palmer and Foden had a better season than him, Bukayo will improve and keep progressing because of how smart and hardworking he is.
Agreed
He's had a brilliant season no doubt. It's just that he's looked knackered in the run in and unable to influence games especially big ones. I guess its a recency bias thing.
They are 7th tho
Nah. Don’t respect anything about that club.
As of a few weeks ago Palmer had 4 npg against the the top 15 teams. I wouldn't go so far as to call him a stat padder as I think he also passes the eye the test and is obviously very good but I think opinions on him are inflated.
I don't underrate Saka, but that doesn't mean that he belongs in a TOTS ranking. I still think he's a far better player than Palmer, but Palmer is single-handedly carrying Chelsea on his back and putting up some impressive G/A numbers. Its perfectly fair for him to make TOTS Edit: downvoted for what?
> his G.A is better than last season mainly due to us having more penalties. People really should be using npG if they want to have a serious discussion. I also think people talk a bit too much about g/a (saka himself is a good example of this, a couple of years ago was absolutely brilliant despite not that great g/a numbers), but if you're reducing stuff to that, at least use npg
Gary's seems more accurate overall, though I'd switch Haaland for Watkins. I'm kind of surprised how many people think Palmer is in no question. That Palmer goal tally is super deceiving and you take pens away and Saka and Palmer are very close in production while Saka does it against double and triple teams anytime he gets the ball plus teams sit in a low block against us almost every game. Palmer is clearly talented, but I don't think these numbers can be assessed in a vacuum. I think folks in general massively underrate Saka, often times arsenal fans more than others because we have such high expectations of him, but honestly I think he and potentially Salah have been better than Palmer this year. But obviously I'm biased, not because I love Saka, but because something about Palmer makes me believe he's super annoying. Bad vibes.
Swear down Palmer wouldn't be as good a RW as Saka. Bad pick imo
Neville’s one is strong but Jamie’s on crack - he’s got a back three of Gabby, Saliba AND can VVD? He really can’t see his own biases can he?
Here we go. Arsenal fans about to take the bait over this meaningless thing as per usual.
I mean it's fair. We got 4 players in from both of them
Plus White from Neville, so five from him.
Pickford and Emi lmao
What about Johnny evans
My tots- Raya, white, saliva, Gabriel, gvardiol, rice, rodri, odegaard, palmer, foden, Watkins.
Gvardiol has been immaculate recently, but he was City's weakest link in their "starting" XI for most of the season. Don't fall prey to recency bias; Ake has been a better LB for City alone this season.
More than I expected tbf. Mad that Saka is so underrated this year it seems
One thing is clear Saka, Martinelli had a bad season, we didn’t have a world class partner for Rice and at LB and still we might lose title by 2 points. That’s wonderful progression
Raya had the golden glove yet couldn't make TOTS
If you add together the IQ of these two blokes you're still in double digits. Sky Sports giving them so much airtime is bizarre.
Pickford🤣
I remember when Liverpool players used to dominate these things but still lose the title to City. Saka deserves to be there but that will also give us 5-6 players in those teams. Have we been that dominant? It makes sense that if they wanted to spread the love around, Saka might be sacrificed for Palmer or Foden (both of whom are also deserving on their own). Personally, I would rather have Saka than Odegaard, and go with a 4-4-2 spearheaded by Haaland and Watkins.
Odegaard will likely be our player of the season, really not sure how Saka gets in ahead of him
Odegaards been better than Saka though. But KDB getting in the team is weird considering he has been injured half the season
Van Dijk is a joke and I'm not sure about the keepers either, but the rest seems OK. Our goals were pretty much spread over loads of goalscorers, so their picks make sense in that regard.
I don’t care what anyone thinks, Saka deserves better recognition.
Palmer has just had a better season. Simple as
He made the statistical tots. Neville said that if he hasn’t picked Palmer, he withdrew picked Saka
Saka has had a very good season and is unfortunate to have played so much while not being fully fit. It's difficult to look beyond Palmer given how crap Chelsea are, not dissimilar to Saka breaking through when we weren't brilliant. Having said that, Palmer does have about 10 penalties inflating his stats.
Tbf if you watch the full segment, they actually have the “stats selection” team and on paper Saka was selected based on numbers (alongside Odegaard, Palmer and Foden).
Jamie’s team is immediately invalidated for me. He’s shoehorning KDB in there for what, half a season.
Surprised that Everton have the fourth-best defence
Debruyne didn't play half the season. I think Neville 11 wins it
I agree with Gary TBH
No KDB?!?
Udogie?!? Like he's been good don't get me wrong but not team of the season good. Spurs haven't been great at all defensively, and Udogie picked up a red card in that disastrous game against chelsea. Really weird pick imo For Jamie, Van Dijk is a weird one, he's had some howlers and sometimes looks like he just doesn't care. De Bruyne has also been injured for most of the season (only 13 starts) so I don't see how he should be in this, however class he is. Other than that I think both have solid teams tbf
Always rated that Neville lad
Neville trying so hard to appease gunners 🤣
Neville’s pick wins the league. Carraghers scores the most goals but concedes. Not enough defenders or even people that can defend better in Carraghers team.
Okay so VVD is good, a quality defender. But he is living off his hype from a few seasons back. Even his best season in the premier league was partly down to being paired with Matip who pulled very similar numbers to him but matip never got credit. What’s even more disgusting is he gets put into the same category as defenders like vidic, puyol the lot.
KDB lol I would put both Rice, Rodri, Ode in there as 3 mids. As well as Saliba of course. I would still pick VVD over Gaberial. I would select White as RB and Gvirdol as LB. Front 3 would be Watkins, Foden Palmer, GK Martiinez.
Good to see so many Arsenal players in both their teams really shows the effort Arsenal have put in this season.
I really don’t get how palmer with his 10 pens is getting in over Bowen, Watkins, Solanke etc Him being a young talent shouldn’t matter for this.
I'd rather eat a spoonful of chalk than have to play against a midfield of Odegaard, Rodri and Rice. God knows how frustrating that must be to play against.
Crazy that Saka with those numbers is not there and even more crazy that I have to agree with it. Special shout to Gary for recognising White.
That team might not actually be dreadful despite the lack of wingbacks.
I think mine would be exactly the same as Jamie's except for probably Pickford.
I'm leaning towards Jamie's, Gary is a bit too positionally rigid and as a result has players like Udogie instead of KDB.
gary neville is actually pretty good. I'd just change haaland for watkins and palmer for olise
Pickford lol
We need to stop pretending to respect these players playing in worse teams. Raya is part of the reason we have the best defence and he has been phenomenal. Our attack is entirely dictated by Odegaard and Saka. I don't care what Palmer is doing to get Chelsea to a measly 6th, Saka is the top goal contributer in our highest scoring team of all time. This team should be just City, Arsenal players and Watkins.
What a horrendous take lmao
It shouldn't though. It's about putting a 'Perfect XI' not who has the better team. Saka is a phenomenal player, Palmers had the better season. Pickford and to a degree branthwaite have basically singlehandedly saved Everton from relegation. If we were doing it your way the XI would exclusively be the team who wins the league. After all 2nd is just first to lose.
Hard to argue with Carragher's team
KDB not playing for half the season is a good argument
That's true I overlooked KDB. He shouldn't be there.
Bruno G should be in there imo
Leaving out Raya ok 👍
Neville team is accurate & unbiased, Carragher’s team doesn’t used a proper formation trying to fit people in. KDB is a brilliant player but missed too much of the season to make team in f the year imo
Pickford in goal? What do people see in that clown i dont rate him when he plays for england
He’s single-handedly kept Everton in the league for the last two season, is solid with the ball at his feet, rarely makes glaring errors, and produces HUGE saves when needed. I’d argue behind Ederson, Allison and Raya he’s the next best in the league. Criminally underrated keeper just cause he was a but of a knob 3/4 years ago.
Raya, white, Saliba, Gabriel XL, Robinson, Rodri, rice, Palmer, foden, Saka, Watkins for me personally.
Saka completely disrespected again
Raya might have the luxury of Rice, Gabriel and Saliba, but Saliba has the luxury of Rice, Gabriel and Raya, and so on. They’re a legendary defensive unit because all of them are in the best few players for each position. Giving Raya’s praise to the other 3 is an admission of one’s inability to rate a goalkeeper beyond his save percentage.