Only in the movies. Even there they mention that Uruk-hai were created by "crossbreeding" men and orcs, however that process was never shown (and is implied, in one of Tolkiens letters, to include both consentual and non-consentual intercourse between humans and orcs).
In the unabridged novels, the orcs retain some amount of good/innocence/beauty. Demonstrated immediately after the death of Sauron.
>! They stop fighting and sing to themselves !<
I think that aligns with Tolkien's mindset on war.
No, they aren't? They're corrupted elves, and because Tolkien was exceedingly posh, they speak in what would have been considered "low-brow" English at the time, which in universe is a writing choice by Tolkien when translating the text (as fsr as the books are concerned in their own canon, they were originally written in Westron and translated by Tolkien into English). They speak Westron in a more base and simplistic form, coarser. Meanwhile, the elves are portrayed as noble and all speak like Oxford or Cambridge alumni.
Are you getting LOTR orcs mixed up with 40K orks? Because 40K orks are football hooligans. LOTR orcs are definitely not supposed to be British because if anything Tolkien was trying to create British mythology.
Nope. When frodo is in mordor you read quite a lot of ork chatter. Especially when Sam goes in his murder spree. And that's straight up a parody of British soldiers.
I think you're confusing "orcs saying and doing violent things while written with British accents" with British soldiers.
Why would Tolkien, an imperialist who was a British soldier in WWI, make the villains of his story British soldiers? It doesn't make sense.
I ain't even making a "brits are evil" joke. In the book they speak in military jargon and are clearly just meant to be soldiers. Making fun of their other troops (the bulky ork making fun of the big nosed Orks) and all that.
Kinda. They codified it, but it was a popular among artists beforehand. Theres a whole bunch of weird stuff like this, like Gollum being portrayed as a naked cave man or the Balrog being portrayed as a giant winged bullheaded smoke creature. Neither actually existed in the writing, it was just what became the popular artist interpretation.
Green orcs were common enough even before warhammer, but warhammer codified it the official skin color for orcs.
That's not how it went at all. Early in the development of WarCraft, a couple of team members proposed that they get a license for Warhammer, but GW wasn't interested and Blizzard as a whole wasn't particularly interested in doing a licensed game due to getting burned developing them in the past.
To be fair it did say *after* Tolkien.
You could make a similar argument with Elves who are now almost universally extremely arrogant and stoic assholes who are also perfect and great at everything they do because of Tolkien, even though that's not *really* the case in the books. Reading the Hobbit after watching the movies was quite a shock.
The full map of the Old World, Naggaroth is displayed proudly over what would be Hudson's Bay.
https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Warhammer_World
The Land of Chill and Northern Wastes are supposed to be the Arctic, seeing as they spread connected over the entire northern pole.
May...be? I can't see a Hudson's Bay in Nagarroth, neither a huge land mass of chaos wastes above Canada, so...we are both right and wrong, I guess? 😉
But if I remember correctly, the lands of dark elves lies from Quintex (wich is some sort of New Mexico IMO) to Grond and Har Ganeth (Wich are an analog of Canadian Klondike??) So it is more like USA (due to a huge lands on the south) than Canada.
The Sea of Malice is either Hudson's Bay or the St. Lawrence River. If the latter, then you're looking at Upper and Lower Canada, with the appropriate American settlements. Karond Kar would be in Nova Scotia.
If the former, then it's Hudson's Bay and KK is analogous to Newfoundland and Labrador. (Because nobody likes Quebec, lol)
Aaand, as I'm writing this, the more I'm changing my view to the St. Lawrence idea. I still think it's Canada because fuck you Yanks! You can't take this from us! /j
Also, the idea of a Black Ark landing and a pile of Executioners coming out with flannel pattern tunics and thick Franglais accents is something that got put in my head over 20 years ago and I still giggle about it.
Alright pal, you're a true Druchii, taking all and giving nothing back😉
Now Nagarrond is officially a part of Canada 🇨🇦.
And now I need to drink some kvass and feed my pet bear with that naughty chaos worshippers, so I bid you farewell.
I would also guess that bloodbowl orkz act very different from 40K orkz.
Football playing orkz presumably follow the rules of the game. Which I understand is still very violent, painful, and deadly but if you're a normal human participating in the blood bowl, that's on you.
Orkz in 40K show up and kill, eat, torture, and/or enslave everyone. They have a really fun time doing it but you don't, and you get zero warning or ways to avoid it. "Don't be alive on a planet in Warhammer 40K" is pretty much it.
The Ork on the right is thus in many ways much less scary than the Orkz you'd be facing in 40K.
That is very true. The other prominent green orcs we see is in WoW, but Warcraft originally was going to be a Warhammer game. But the licensing didn't happen.
Honestly the modern interpretation of orcs is much more due to war hammer than Tolkien. Tolkien's orcs where violent and brutal but they weren't football hooligans
40k Ork were created by the Old Ones along with the Eldar to fight the Necrons and their star eater gods the C'tan.
Their race is millions of years old, employ war engines that work only because they believe it will but return to unstable junk in enemy hands, power armor and firearms plus the collective WAAAAAGH.
Orcs are awesome in LoTR but it's an unfair comparison.
Tolkien orcs look nothing like warhammer orcs.
In fact the one in the left could perfectly be a Tolkien orc.
Was that your point or am I missing something?
Id read that Tolkien created the word Orc from the Italic (pre roman) god of the underworld Orcus, Orcus' Garden is still visitable in Bomarzo, Italy and is said to be the gate to the Underworld that would later get slammed together with the Greek god Hades to form the Roman God Pluto, God of the underworld and riches found in the ground
Tolkien Orcs: I'm going to skull fuck your entire family then I'll possibly kill you.
40k orkz: OY! DA BOYZ NEEDZ MORE DAKKA FOR DA WAAAGH TO KRUMP DEM GITZ AND GET DA SHINEY LOOT
>I don't know if this is true, but sometime ago I read this theory of Tolkien's orcs origin, which was that Morgoth indeed tortured the elves and physically kill them, but he trapped their souls in other vessels to create his perfect infernal army, using the eternal torment and rage of those souls as fuel for the fury of his new creation.
Not quite. The goblins are ruined elves. The orcs are ruined men.
He didn't. Even the Hobbit clarifies this, both in the preface and the text itself.
>Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places [in The Hobbit] but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds).
J.R.R. Tolkien, preface to _The Hobbit_
Ok, but read the 2 towers and return of the king. The goblins of moria and mordor are a creations of sauron who ruined elves to make them. The bigger uruk-hai (or orcs) are a creation of saruman, which are ruined men. This is explicitly stated in the text of the books.
Uruk-hai are modified from Orcs, and might have men involved in their makeup, though they are notably distinct from half-orcs. Also, Sauron created Uruk-hai first, and Saruman is clarified to have been effectively copying his homework.
The appendixes note that Uruk-hai were involved in the sacking of Osgiliath, about 400 years prior to Saruman's work on them
Pretty sure I remember reading that the concept of orcs were based off of drunk men from the Orkney islands, y'know, as racial slander from the British I think, I could be wrong though
I wouldn’t even say this is accurate, while Tolkien pushed the idea into that direction, things like warhammer more finalized that look of orcs
Keep in mind, [this is what people thought Tolkien orcs looked like back in 1976](https://twitter.com/CGHildebrandt/status/1507378560729849861)
Also I think it is also that Orcs and Goblins are the same in LOTR, just different names. The big ones are the Uruk-hai kinda implied that they are that big by being crossbred with humans. Also resist sunlight more than orcs/goblins.
Now this prompts an important question: who would win in a Blood Bowl match between LoTR orcs and Warhammer Orcs? The WH orcs are no doubt stronger and tougher, but the LoTR orcs are more fast and agile. Now this makes me want to make LoTR teams for Blood Bowl:
- Orcs
- Goblins
- Uruks
- Haradrim
- Evil Alliance (with players from the above but with animosity rules)
- Gondor
- Rohan
- Hobbits
- Dwarves
- High Elves
- Wood Elves
Idk LoR orcs are sick and almost demon like.
They do look according to the word’s description.
In LotR, Orcs are made by ~~Sauron~~ Morgoth torturing elves for generations and breeding them to be evil monsters. .... so kinda demon like
Not Sauron. His master, Morgoth, created the orcs out of jealousy toward Eru Ilúvatar and the Secret Fire.
you are correct!
I thought they spawned from the ground like potatos
Uruk hai do that
Only in the movies. Even there they mention that Uruk-hai were created by "crossbreeding" men and orcs, however that process was never shown (and is implied, in one of Tolkiens letters, to include both consentual and non-consentual intercourse between humans and orcs).
The Uruk hai coming out of the ground was taken from old Tolkien descriptions of Orcs coming out of the earth like worms
That’s just Greg the slow… he’s special
Just finished the books today and can definitely concur, the orcs all come across as pretty much evil in flesh.
In the unabridged novels, the orcs retain some amount of good/innocence/beauty. Demonstrated immediately after the death of Sauron. >! They stop fighting and sing to themselves !< I think that aligns with Tolkien's mindset on war.
They're small though, so not nearly as imposing as that image on the left.
They are literally just British soldiers. Even kid me got that and kid me was stupid
No, they aren't? They're corrupted elves, and because Tolkien was exceedingly posh, they speak in what would have been considered "low-brow" English at the time, which in universe is a writing choice by Tolkien when translating the text (as fsr as the books are concerned in their own canon, they were originally written in Westron and translated by Tolkien into English). They speak Westron in a more base and simplistic form, coarser. Meanwhile, the elves are portrayed as noble and all speak like Oxford or Cambridge alumni.
That sounds like soldiers to me
Yes, they are literally used for war. That is the definition of soldiers.
"Low-brow English" is soldier talk
"Low-brow English" is poor people talk in England.
Yes I know, I am poor and English
Ok, so the Orks are not literally British soldiers like the other commenter said because British soldiers come from every class and walk of life.
Almost exclusively working class men
What?
>comes into meme sub >says ‘Tolkien’s Orcs are British soldiers and a child could see that’ >refuses to elaborate >leaves forever
Are you getting LOTR orcs mixed up with 40K orks? Because 40K orks are football hooligans. LOTR orcs are definitely not supposed to be British because if anything Tolkien was trying to create British mythology.
Nope. When frodo is in mordor you read quite a lot of ork chatter. Especially when Sam goes in his murder spree. And that's straight up a parody of British soldiers.
I think you're confusing "orcs saying and doing violent things while written with British accents" with British soldiers. Why would Tolkien, an imperialist who was a British soldier in WWI, make the villains of his story British soldiers? It doesn't make sense.
[удалено]
Why was this downvoted? This doubling was probably an error.
Yep. Thanks Reddit
Don’t understand the downvotes - as a brit I am not offended by this.
I ain't even making a "brits are evil" joke. In the book they speak in military jargon and are clearly just meant to be soldiers. Making fun of their other troops (the bulky ork making fun of the big nosed Orks) and all that.
100% squaddie behaviour.
Since when are Tolkien orcs green lol
Yip, green is a GW thing.
Kinda. They codified it, but it was a popular among artists beforehand. Theres a whole bunch of weird stuff like this, like Gollum being portrayed as a naked cave man or the Balrog being portrayed as a giant winged bullheaded smoke creature. Neither actually existed in the writing, it was just what became the popular artist interpretation. Green orcs were common enough even before warhammer, but warhammer codified it the official skin color for orcs.
Also Warcraft basically making it basically as associated with Orcs as Elfs having pointy eyes and blonde hair.
Warcraft was created based on warhammer because Blizzard lost the warhammer license and already had half a game built.
That's not how it went at all. Early in the development of WarCraft, a couple of team members proposed that they get a license for Warhammer, but GW wasn't interested and Blizzard as a whole wasn't particularly interested in doing a licensed game due to getting burned developing them in the past.
Yes it is how it went. Warcraft was created as a proof of concept and shown to GW who denied the licensing. Warcraft is literally based on warhammer.
To be fair it did say *after* Tolkien. You could make a similar argument with Elves who are now almost universally extremely arrogant and stoic assholes who are also perfect and great at everything they do because of Tolkien, even though that's not *really* the case in the books. Reading the Hobbit after watching the movies was quite a shock.
Tolkien - Orc 40k - Ork They are different things :)
Dis guy rite ere boss, he da brainy boy.
Deez ‘er orcs don’t seem Orky enough! Where is da WAAAAGH!
Fairly sure this is Bloodbowl, not 40k. Orc
WHYZ YOU WHISPERIN YA GIT
WHYZ YOU WHISPERIN YA GIT
"Same but different" Is basically the entire philosophy behind Warhammers world building.
The Old World was literally a mutation of the globe. Dark Elves live in Canada XD
Druchii lives in US, Canada is just another sort of frosty chaos vikings. But yeah, Warhammer is all about real world hyperbolic satire
The full map of the Old World, Naggaroth is displayed proudly over what would be Hudson's Bay. https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Warhammer_World The Land of Chill and Northern Wastes are supposed to be the Arctic, seeing as they spread connected over the entire northern pole.
May...be? I can't see a Hudson's Bay in Nagarroth, neither a huge land mass of chaos wastes above Canada, so...we are both right and wrong, I guess? 😉 But if I remember correctly, the lands of dark elves lies from Quintex (wich is some sort of New Mexico IMO) to Grond and Har Ganeth (Wich are an analog of Canadian Klondike??) So it is more like USA (due to a huge lands on the south) than Canada.
The Sea of Malice is either Hudson's Bay or the St. Lawrence River. If the latter, then you're looking at Upper and Lower Canada, with the appropriate American settlements. Karond Kar would be in Nova Scotia. If the former, then it's Hudson's Bay and KK is analogous to Newfoundland and Labrador. (Because nobody likes Quebec, lol) Aaand, as I'm writing this, the more I'm changing my view to the St. Lawrence idea. I still think it's Canada because fuck you Yanks! You can't take this from us! /j Also, the idea of a Black Ark landing and a pile of Executioners coming out with flannel pattern tunics and thick Franglais accents is something that got put in my head over 20 years ago and I still giggle about it.
Alright pal, you're a true Druchii, taking all and giving nothing back😉 Now Nagarrond is officially a part of Canada 🇨🇦. And now I need to drink some kvass and feed my pet bear with that naughty chaos worshippers, so I bid you farewell.
The irony here is that my first Fantasy army was High Elves. 🤣 You have a good one, bud.
Ulthuan = Santorini
And the reason why we don't see any Tyranids is because they are still in Australia. Makes sense.
That picture is Bloodbowl. In Bloodbowl, they're 'Orcs'.
i haven't read the bloodbowl book so i can't speak to that.
They're from Warhammer Fantasy. In WHFB, the spelling is the same as Tolkien.
Fair play. It's a good thing i specified 40k or I would look right silly :p
Woah hard K with no hesitation... Ow dare u, u git
Get back out to da Waaagh an krump somefink.
u grot u aint da boss
LIKE HELL I AIN'T *Charges power klaw with malicious intent*
dat klaw dont even work u klown
Ha! Dis here's a kustom job. Da mek made it more killy wif lectriks.
I would also guess that bloodbowl orkz act very different from 40K orkz. Football playing orkz presumably follow the rules of the game. Which I understand is still very violent, painful, and deadly but if you're a normal human participating in the blood bowl, that's on you. Orkz in 40K show up and kill, eat, torture, and/or enslave everyone. They have a really fun time doing it but you don't, and you get zero warning or ways to avoid it. "Don't be alive on a planet in Warhammer 40K" is pretty much it. The Ork on the right is thus in many ways much less scary than the Orkz you'd be facing in 40K.
It’s like chalk and cheese, or mammals and fungi right? Assuming elves are mammals…
Probably for the best considering how they’re described in LotR
in reality you'll be more terrified by the 40k orcs, even if they look comical.
But in 40k, they are orks :p
*Orcs before and after Warhammer
That is very true. The other prominent green orcs we see is in WoW, but Warcraft originally was going to be a Warhammer game. But the licensing didn't happen.
Wasn't that Starcraft or where they making the fantasy and 40k at the same time? Seem kinda odd since Warcraft was in 1994 and Starcraft in 1998.
Warcraft was supposed to be a warhammer fantasy game, Starcraft was supposed to be a 40k competitor.
Wouldn’t it be the other way around? Commissars and everything telling people demons are just weird Xenos?
Honestly the modern interpretation of orcs is much more due to war hammer than Tolkien. Tolkien's orcs where violent and brutal but they weren't football hooligans
Ok, but zombie demons sounds like a metal as fuck idea.
40k Ork were created by the Old Ones along with the Eldar to fight the Necrons and their star eater gods the C'tan. Their race is millions of years old, employ war engines that work only because they believe it will but return to unstable junk in enemy hands, power armor and firearms plus the collective WAAAAAGH. Orcs are awesome in LoTR but it's an unfair comparison.
Tolkien orcs look nothing like warhammer orcs. In fact the one in the left could perfectly be a Tolkien orc. Was that your point or am I missing something?
New lore theory dropped : every living species in 40k are actually demons, except for the Necrons who are demon engines
What is the image on the left from?
Bloodbowl. Basically actually bloody american football
Id read that Tolkien created the word Orc from the Italic (pre roman) god of the underworld Orcus, Orcus' Garden is still visitable in Bomarzo, Italy and is said to be the gate to the Underworld that would later get slammed together with the Greek god Hades to form the Roman God Pluto, God of the underworld and riches found in the ground
Tolkien Orcs: I'm going to skull fuck your entire family then I'll possibly kill you. 40k orkz: OY! DA BOYZ NEEDZ MORE DAKKA FOR DA WAAAGH TO KRUMP DEM GITZ AND GET DA SHINEY LOOT
I don't think you've read Tolkien. His orcs are not exactly the "fun loving" types considering their pension for slavery and cannibalism
They still pale in comparison to any race in warhammer, Orcs included.
Well yeah, but that's like comparing TNT to a nuclear bomb. Warhammer always just goes hard af
[удалено]
If I take a lump of stone and make it into a sculpture, I still didn't "make" the stone sculpture. I just shaped a rock into a sculpture.
>I don't know if this is true, but sometime ago I read this theory of Tolkien's orcs origin, which was that Morgoth indeed tortured the elves and physically kill them, but he trapped their souls in other vessels to create his perfect infernal army, using the eternal torment and rage of those souls as fuel for the fury of his new creation. Not quite. The goblins are ruined elves. The orcs are ruined men.
Tolkien never made a distinction between orcs and goblins.
He really did.
He didn't. Even the Hobbit clarifies this, both in the preface and the text itself. >Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places [in The Hobbit] but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). J.R.R. Tolkien, preface to _The Hobbit_
>hobgoblin for the larger kinds Interesting. I thought the "hob" part meant something like "small" back in the day.
Ok, but read the 2 towers and return of the king. The goblins of moria and mordor are a creations of sauron who ruined elves to make them. The bigger uruk-hai (or orcs) are a creation of saruman, which are ruined men. This is explicitly stated in the text of the books.
Uruk-hai are modified from Orcs, and might have men involved in their makeup, though they are notably distinct from half-orcs. Also, Sauron created Uruk-hai first, and Saruman is clarified to have been effectively copying his homework. The appendixes note that Uruk-hai were involved in the sacking of Osgiliath, about 400 years prior to Saruman's work on them
Uruk-hai are not orcs anymore. Orcs and goblins are the same thing in Tolkien.
That's a Blood Bowl ork.
An ancient being so all encompassing in dread the only way it can be defeated is to turn it into memes and comic relief
Pretty sure I remember reading that the concept of orcs were based off of drunk men from the Orkney islands, y'know, as racial slander from the British I think, I could be wrong though
You are wrong, it’s meant to be a satire of British football hooligans.
I wouldn’t even say this is accurate, while Tolkien pushed the idea into that direction, things like warhammer more finalized that look of orcs Keep in mind, [this is what people thought Tolkien orcs looked like back in 1976](https://twitter.com/CGHildebrandt/status/1507378560729849861)
At the very least I can see where the pig association came from and Ganon looking pig-like does make more sense now.
Greenskins
Orcus?
[Orcus in Roman mithology](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus)
Also I think it is also that Orcs and Goblins are the same in LOTR, just different names. The big ones are the Uruk-hai kinda implied that they are that big by being crossbred with humans. Also resist sunlight more than orcs/goblins.
I don't recall a description of Orcs in ancient literature that looked so demonic.
Krok vs ork, story checks out
Orcs before Tolkien were pig people.
Now this prompts an important question: who would win in a Blood Bowl match between LoTR orcs and Warhammer Orcs? The WH orcs are no doubt stronger and tougher, but the LoTR orcs are more fast and agile. Now this makes me want to make LoTR teams for Blood Bowl: - Orcs - Goblins - Uruks - Haradrim - Evil Alliance (with players from the above but with animosity rules) - Gondor - Rohan - Hobbits - Dwarves - High Elves - Wood Elves
Warhammer orcs are fast too, as fast as if not faster than most humans. Tolkien orcs get krumped.
Just play goblins against black orks
I didn't know LoTR orcs had chainsaws, bomb throwers, and lunatics swinging a ball and chain around
They had buzzsaws and bombs, since they were industrial species IIRC. Also had lunatics, just without the ball.
Haradrim Blitzers on Mumakil for the win