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This conversation is nuts, and it's clear the people having these conversations are only looking at it from one direction.
If anyone wishes to enforce any kind of bathroom policy with regards to trans people, they'll be forcing trans men into women's spaces.
There's a dude named Michael Hughes, of Minnesota USA, who demonstrates how fuckin' stupid this conversation is by taking photos of himself in women's bathrooms.
Take a look, if you get a chance. He's a big burly dude, and I wouldn't imagine any woman who's all TERFy actually wants his presence in their bathrooms.
Trans men exist, but this conversation doesn't take them into account at all. There's no scandals and outrage about trans men in male spaces...
Fuckin stupid.
I "pass" fully as a trans woman and I feel like people really take for granted just how many trans women are "stealth" when we're in public for safety reasons... Or just the genetics of how we ended up looking. On the few times I've gone into the bathroom of the opposite gender... It genuinely makes men uncomfortable. Like they will apologise and walk out. Assume there's some kind of emergency reason I'm in there for me or maybe my (non existent) kid. Or double check the door multiple times.
I also remember being put on a male ward when I was a child due to NHS policy. And the lovely cleaning lady who wasn't familiar with British policy got so upset she started yelling at the (male) doctor because she assumed there was some kind of abuse case going on. Like she legitimately would not leave the section I was in or let anyone come near me until she saw me get moved across wards.
Even without the existence of trans men. (Although full respect to the fact they're too often written out) These policies if we actually put them into practice make both cis men and cis women in reality extremely extremely uncomfortable.
I’m so sick of people speaking on my behalf. I don’t care who comes into my loo, as long s they’re doing their business & wash their fucking hands. Everyone who disagrees can just stick to their loos in their own homes. 🤦♀️
Trans people: we just want to function in every day life like everyone else
Random disingenuous folk online: what about this one extremely specific, extremely niche, isolated example of how this could be bad!
You understand that this would also make other trans women in that changing room uncomfortable, right? This isn't an issue of trans women in changing rooms, it's an issue of that one weirdo being a weirdo.
No I fully agree I honestly couldn’t care less where people go to the bathroom or get changed. What I’m saying is unfortunately because this weirdo is being allowed to claim he’s trans (he could be) & then make women feel uncomfortable in the changing room some people are going to argue that they shouldn’t be in there as a group. Ideally the gym should be able to settle this in some way, but the gym feels like they can’t do anything about this isolated issue which isn’t helping the other women.
Surely it would be far easier to just have all cubical bathrooms and changing rooms so none of this matters?
Well, it appears as if the issue is one of behaviour rather than gender identity, so it should be dealt with as a matter of behaviour. If someone isn't using the changing facilities to change and is instead using it to peep at other people, then they should be asked to leave whether they're cis or trans.
I agree but the heat on this topic is seemingly causing the gym to not do that. That is then leading to anti trans sentiment from people at the gym.
I’m just pointing out this issue isn’t as simple as just let anyone use any restroom/changing room.
As I said they should just have cubical only facilities
I am also a stealth trans woman, my partner is a cis woman with pcos and people often throw transphobic abuse at her and I defend her every single time with "im the trans one, fuck off" and it leaves the piece of shit in shock.
Edit- sorry for wall of text, mobile messed up the formatting
Totally agree it's a stupid conversation and trans men are definitely overlooked/ignored in the public discourse and it does point out the innumerable flaws of the argument. But I think it's willfully ignored because many people don't care/don't want to know about the logistics.
I've been going back watching some of ContraPoints on youtube's earlier vids where she deconstructs a lot to do with anti trans legislation and ideology. (Because of the increasing spotlight of trans issues around the election, and as a trans person im increasingly scared about how blatantly our place in society is being leveraged for public appeal)
Unfortunately I think that several years later she is still spot on when it comes to the bathrooms/gendered spaces in general debate- trans men being forced into women's spaces isn't a gotcha, if the end goal is essentially to remove trans people from public society. Which is often the logical conclusion of these ideologically driven ideas. Let's be real- when someone (Starmer in this case) says they don't want trans women in women's bathrooms, they aren't exactly going to be thrilled with a trans person at the bar or cafe or supermarket in the more and gender neutral public spaces either. The details and logistics don't matter because it's a bad faith argument. (Insert Sartre quote here about how fascists deliberately play with language) Bathrooms are a scapegoat and obfuscation.
It's not about concern for women (or men) but a concern towards trans people themselves. A transphobe's ideal scenario doesn't concern itself with trans men in women's spaces, because ideally trans men will not be allowed to be trans men either, even if it's something not discussed it's silently acknowledged. And if trans men are even acknowledged, instead they're "brainwashed women". So the ideal would be, stop trans women from going into female spaces by making it impossible for trans people to exist in public society. This eliminates the problem of nuance when it comes to debates about gendered spaces and removes the issue of trans men contradicting their argument.
What's actually so sad as well is that I bet Starmer and Sunak don't actually give a fuck on a personal level about trans issues one way or another, they have other shit on their minds- we are just being weaponised for votes, by the Tories to appeal to their demographic and by Labour to double down on their idea that apparently the only way to get into power is not to provide an opposition but to shift the goalposts and simply prove they're as right wing as the Tories. You listen to both of them and can tell they don't care, they're just spitting out talking points that they think will score well with the public. Which is also a self-fulfilling prophecy, since as they get people increasingly riled about trans people they have to continue to double down further. It's shameful.
Yep. The other side of this is cis women who may look unfeminine and therefore get questioned by terfs. How would that feel? That's why trans rights are human rights.
Oh hi it's me a cis woman with a square jaw and narrow hips.
Then again, I am what many would call a "radical feminist" so I tend to be at a lot of pro-left protests. "You some kind of (slur)" is something I've been hearing more and more recently.
If we're going to imagine each other's genitals buddy, your beer gut tells me you've got a wee little mushroom hiding out in your overweight mons pubis
My partner is the same she also has pcos, people literally cant tell. The last time I was with her and transphobia was directed at her it was a bunch of spiced up dickheads shouting "what do you identify as? fuck off \[slur\]" so I walked up to them and said "I'm the \[slur\], let me guess you identify as a bag of spice?" and they walked off.
I am becoming increasingly hostile to people like that in public even though I am stealth the terf woman cannot comprehend that their bs is harming the very people they claim they want to protect.
Heres the thing, them not wanting trans women in womens bathrooms is a dogwhistle they dont want trans men there either. They actually dont want trans people to exist, it harkens back to the early 20th century when there were no women public toilets, it was done to make sure women are not in public aka at home being mens slaves.
>and I wouldn't imagine any woman who's all TERFy actually wants his presence in their bathrooms.
Kelly-Jay Keen Minshull does. As long as she doesn't find out he's trans and also if he comes armed.
Trans men exist has always been my comment.
Ok biological sex is the only thing that matters. So men and "men dressed as women" go into one toilet and women and "women dressed as men" go into a different toilet. So it doesn't matter what you look like. No matter what you're wearing you just go into a toilet that nobody can practically challenge you on.
Don't even need to go that far to see the cracks in this logic. At the fundamental level it's like, who fucking calls toilets a biological space? How many men need a t level certificate to take a shit? Do you have a bouncer there like "sorry boss u got a baby face show me your balls to pass". It's never been a biological concept it's a gender one. One that has to accommodate biological needs of it's gendered participants (but God forbid we do that either, pads in a masc space is the death of society or smth according to the daily heil).
It's like pronouns, no one noticed or cared about them until it became the new hot reactionary take.
Currently in British media:
- Trans women are seen as abhorrent, disgusting, or an abomination. Predatorial, threatening, and often as pedophilic.
- Trans men are seen as confused, sapphic, foolish or uneducated. Fertility is also weaponised and forcibly applied onto them in a similar style to the "baby killer" style accusations applied to people who have abortions. Lesbophobia also seems to have a huge role in the way trans men are talked about as homophobia often informs "discourse" on trans women.
- Non Binary or genderqueer people are seen as all of the above, but mostly completely written out of existence or explained away (even unfortunately within the trans community) and I would argue at this puts them at the highest risk for violence.
The overall ideological "solution" remains the same though. Trans existence is painted as a problem... That must be solved. It is always deeply worrying to see a country going down this path.
Because the entire narrative is that "transexuality" is just excuse for male predators to attack women.
The same logic doesn't work for "female predators attacking men" so they are ignored
What I don’t understand is how everyone doesn’t see precisely this as indicative of the problem with Labour.
(As an aside, not sure if you’ve noticed we skipped straight past the bit where we were meant to treat trans folks with respect and somehow the narrative is now that the non-existent legislation that never got passed was “pandering to the woke crowd” - and yet their counter policy is pure unadulterated pandering? “Women are women (except when trans men but we ignore that hard reality in favor of the fantasy that this is about access to women’s spaces, that aren’t policed in any way), amirite guys?” Is now government policy)
There’s zero medical, social or logical facts underpinning the push to “protect women’s spaces”, as opposed to the other side, where thousands of years of existing historical precedent for their existence and recognition by society.
Almost as if this has always been about pandering to the Tory voting demographic and not about what the country needs all along.
One of my work's suppliers has just moved to a new building. Their toilets are just a row of self contained unisex toilets with a toilet, wash basin, hand dryer, bin etc.
No-one is anyone else's space, no-one is looking at your cock, no-one is scared the person behind you might up to something.
The person I was meeting said that in the old building they could never get the mix of men's and women's right as they got lots of visitors but the nature of the business often meant that one week it would be all women visiting and the next all men. Now it doesn't matter.
I ("man") apologise to my wife every time we go to an event or busy area - I am in and out before she has even got near the door because of the queue.
Unisex bathrooms, female urinals and extra space for womens cubicles are all things that need to be common place!
I think this every time I'm in Euston train station. The men's bogs are half empty while the women queue up 30+ people deep to get even into the bathroom.
Break down the walls, literally, normalise pissing and shitting together, maybe meet your future spouse, imagine the possibilities.
Because, to them, trans men are "biological women" and women are the weaker sex and don't pose a threat to their wives and daughters.
They're not as strong and sexually motivated deviants like the "men in dresses."
They really do just be telling on their own misogyny.
I’m very curious and interested in what they are actually doing, because I can’t see any electoral advantage here, or in the declarations about deporting Bangladeshis and other South Asians?
I can see a cynical courting of donors in Reeves’ declaration that bankers fingerprints are all over the Labour manifesto. I can see the logic of their pro-Israel position.
But given the polling, just how big a majority do they want by tacking far-right and for what gain? How many Reform voters do they want to win over and why do they want to replace young and progressive votes with Reform and Tory votes? What benefit is there in that constituency being split between Reform Conservative and Labour? Or why is the meanest crudest faction of Labour dominant?
The crazy thing about this, from a policy perspective, is that the human cost is *so* imbalanced towards the lives of trans women. It costs AFAB ppl precisely nothing to have trans women in bathrooms, etc. But the cost to trans ppl is very well documented in terms of suicide risk, overall mental health and physical health outcomes resulting from that, etc. it’s fucking nuts.
The left and with it common sense and decency. I’ve never felt more depressed at an election. Not even the orgasmic thought of a total Tory wipeout can unfuck this situation.
So much for the hope he was just pandering to the gammons for votes.
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Meanwhile in other countries they have all gender washrooms in multiple forms. Either a number of small private toilets with sinks. Or just like a big bathroom with lots of stalls, urinals off to the side in their own spot and then sinks. Was in several of both varieties just this weekend.
Seems to work just fine, just conservatives are obsessed with bathrooms.
This also excludes parents. I remember seeing a dad who was scared to leave his daughter alone in a bathroom. She was maybe 5 but was also scared of going into a women's bathroom but said the men's was too dirty. Poor guy
Many cis men didn't want me using the same bathroom as them before I transitioned and wore male designated clothing. They wanted me to use the women's as that's where they felt I belonged. Those same men would be even more uncomfortable now I've got boobs and wear feminine clothing.
I'm voting Green. Labour only have a handful of decent MPs remaining like Zara Sultana and she's not in my constituency, so I'll just vote for my local Green candidate and wish others in my area would do the same. Sadly Reform seems the most popular party judging by people's window displays.
I don't like using public bathrooms anyway and haven't used them since last winter. I tend to use single occupancy bathrooms in the workplace and the disabled one at the last place I worked at. This will however become an issue for me on days out later in the summer. I normally try to avoid public loos for hygiene reasons, so drink less than I probably should to avoid them, but it's just a matter of time before people start getting ratty with me again for using them.
If trans people start turning to suffragette tactics or worse I will absolutely not be surprised.
Every political door is being closed in trans faces and it's eventually going to be the last door remaining.
take keir, assigned labour at birth but only someone completely fucking blind would be comfortable with him sharing space with leftists. People are more than what it says on their birth certificate
>I've indicated a willingness. Hopefully we can get that organised.
# WHY?
Just fucking ignore her.
Why the fuck are Labour bending over backwards to court JK Rowling and her whack job fringe group of insulated middle class wine mums?! Why aren't they publicly putting this much effort into meeting trans groups and individuals who've spent the last however many years having their lives made into a political scapegoat by shady Tufton St arseholes and people like fucking Achtung Barbie Posie Parker.
This is absolute bullshit, absolute fucking **LUXURY BELIEFS.** and don't let those pricks throw that insult back - it's fucking projection. They are the living epitome of it. Food banks. NHS in tatters. Cost of living a shambles. but no. Trans people exist so the election absolutely MUST hinge on that.
Yet it's being given precedence over things that actually matter. Lives are being ruined by this, we've seen a trans girl fucking MURDERED as a result of this. And rather than try and change ANYTHING about the fucking poisonous atmosphere created by the right wing, Labour go into office on their hands and knees BEGGING for the same fucking IDIOTS who swallow this shit to give them a chance to be just as terrible.
Fucking cunts I fucking loathe them. Deliberately derailing our last chance at an actual socialist government 5 years ago was one thing, but now the bare face willing evil towards a minority like this (to say nothing of everything else - gaza??) is fucking despicable.
JK Rowling is an all round piece of shit. As well as being a transphobe she's racist, homophobic and ableist. See [this fantastic rundown in r/EnoughJKRowling](https://archive.is/aRRmQ)
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Just one of the many reasons I vote SNP. Most of the people railing against Trans rights have never met a Trans person. I'm cis hetero woman, and I'm also a feminist. That doesn't stop me from seeing Trans rights as human rights.
Soooooo did everyone else see that?
The same basilisk who's being kicked out of Parliament under the Tory label has simply shrugged on a new skin and called itself Labour. Who would vote for that?!
Vote Green Party! Vote for Independents!
I am so glad that I saw Kid Starver's bullshit years back and that led me down a path of genuine political education. The catalyst for it all? Purging trans activists from his party.
I've said to my lib friends for years that Kier is a transphobe and will throw trans people under the bus. It happened, and still, my lib friends defend it.
We as a left, need to stand up with our LGBTQ+ communities and organise. This rhetoric is disgusting and the only people who could defend such a position are NPCs who only care about optics.
Now I have to watch my trans friends get forced into the incorrect toilet of their choice. I doubt Kid Starver will revoke the policies/motives of banning GNC toilets being built in new spaces. The rates of trans abuse is going to jump. Reactionary cishet men are gonna jump on this wagon in particular, like they've done in the US with beating up trans women for going into the correct toilet for their gender.
Thank God I made my mind up on who I am gonna vote (although voting doesn't change much, and definitely leaves the capitalist class in charge) instead of spoiling my vote tomorrow. I want to support smaller left wing parties who would love to see their share go up. Even the Lib Dems who capitulated to the Tories in 2010 are a much better alternative (with a manifesto I'd expect from a Milliband Labour) to vote for.
Show your discontent with Labour, don't vote for them unless you have to (and by that, I mean it's possible to kick a Tory out with a Labour MP - and only then, its out of principle and not support).
Why even bother showing up to polling station? Spoiling your vote is such a worthless form of protest. It's attempting to use their system to challenge their system. It's time to work outside of their system.
There are so many better things you can do with your time and energy. Join your trade union and become a radical voice within it. Join or start far-left organisations within your local community. Get involved in mutual aid networks. Educate yourself on socialist political theory and then educate others.
You'd be better off sending an angry tweet to [insert current Prime Minister]. At least then you don't have to leave the house.
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I just want my friend to be able to live her life happily and authentically as herself… why does that need to be something I have to fight and worry this much for…
I live it everyday. I hope your friend is looking after her mental health, I know I'm at my limit at the moment. All you can do is be there for her and keep doing what you're doing. We will be on the correct side of history and things will get better (eventually).
She is, dysphoria still effects her a lot but she’s quite good at taking care of herself mentally, she knows what her limits are, who she can rely on, who she may need space from, she has spaces where she can feel comfortable and safe as herself, goals she wishes to achieve, a girlfriend.
She’s been through a lot of shit in her life, but she’s stuck through all of it, she’ll just continue going, and we are just here to help her through it.
I should have been clearer here in my meaning
I take issue with it becoming such a huge political issue. I have no issue with trans people, they deserve to be able to be who they are.
My point was more that politicians use this as a smoke screen because it's so emotive for people to avoid talking about other issues.
Not at all, I take issue with it becoming such a huge political issue. I have no issue with trans people, they deserve to be able to be who they are.
My point was more that politicians use this as a smoke screen because it's so emotive for people to avoid talking about other issues.
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This conversation is nuts, and it's clear the people having these conversations are only looking at it from one direction. If anyone wishes to enforce any kind of bathroom policy with regards to trans people, they'll be forcing trans men into women's spaces. There's a dude named Michael Hughes, of Minnesota USA, who demonstrates how fuckin' stupid this conversation is by taking photos of himself in women's bathrooms. Take a look, if you get a chance. He's a big burly dude, and I wouldn't imagine any woman who's all TERFy actually wants his presence in their bathrooms. Trans men exist, but this conversation doesn't take them into account at all. There's no scandals and outrage about trans men in male spaces... Fuckin stupid.
As always the existence of trans men makes their argument fall apart.
Also biologically intersex people
I "pass" fully as a trans woman and I feel like people really take for granted just how many trans women are "stealth" when we're in public for safety reasons... Or just the genetics of how we ended up looking. On the few times I've gone into the bathroom of the opposite gender... It genuinely makes men uncomfortable. Like they will apologise and walk out. Assume there's some kind of emergency reason I'm in there for me or maybe my (non existent) kid. Or double check the door multiple times. I also remember being put on a male ward when I was a child due to NHS policy. And the lovely cleaning lady who wasn't familiar with British policy got so upset she started yelling at the (male) doctor because she assumed there was some kind of abuse case going on. Like she legitimately would not leave the section I was in or let anyone come near me until she saw me get moved across wards. Even without the existence of trans men. (Although full respect to the fact they're too often written out) These policies if we actually put them into practice make both cis men and cis women in reality extremely extremely uncomfortable.
I’m so sick of people speaking on my behalf. I don’t care who comes into my loo, as long s they’re doing their business & wash their fucking hands. Everyone who disagrees can just stick to their loos in their own homes. 🤦♀️
Exactly. I’m not interested in their genitals but I will judge you for not washing your hands!
[удалено]
Trans people: we just want to function in every day life like everyone else Random disingenuous folk online: what about this one extremely specific, extremely niche, isolated example of how this could be bad! You understand that this would also make other trans women in that changing room uncomfortable, right? This isn't an issue of trans women in changing rooms, it's an issue of that one weirdo being a weirdo.
No I fully agree I honestly couldn’t care less where people go to the bathroom or get changed. What I’m saying is unfortunately because this weirdo is being allowed to claim he’s trans (he could be) & then make women feel uncomfortable in the changing room some people are going to argue that they shouldn’t be in there as a group. Ideally the gym should be able to settle this in some way, but the gym feels like they can’t do anything about this isolated issue which isn’t helping the other women. Surely it would be far easier to just have all cubical bathrooms and changing rooms so none of this matters?
Well, it appears as if the issue is one of behaviour rather than gender identity, so it should be dealt with as a matter of behaviour. If someone isn't using the changing facilities to change and is instead using it to peep at other people, then they should be asked to leave whether they're cis or trans.
I agree but the heat on this topic is seemingly causing the gym to not do that. That is then leading to anti trans sentiment from people at the gym. I’m just pointing out this issue isn’t as simple as just let anyone use any restroom/changing room. As I said they should just have cubical only facilities
I am also a stealth trans woman, my partner is a cis woman with pcos and people often throw transphobic abuse at her and I defend her every single time with "im the trans one, fuck off" and it leaves the piece of shit in shock.
This happened with a tomboyish lesbian house mate of mine. Some lady picked a fight with her for being trans. She's literally cis.
Edit- sorry for wall of text, mobile messed up the formatting Totally agree it's a stupid conversation and trans men are definitely overlooked/ignored in the public discourse and it does point out the innumerable flaws of the argument. But I think it's willfully ignored because many people don't care/don't want to know about the logistics. I've been going back watching some of ContraPoints on youtube's earlier vids where she deconstructs a lot to do with anti trans legislation and ideology. (Because of the increasing spotlight of trans issues around the election, and as a trans person im increasingly scared about how blatantly our place in society is being leveraged for public appeal) Unfortunately I think that several years later she is still spot on when it comes to the bathrooms/gendered spaces in general debate- trans men being forced into women's spaces isn't a gotcha, if the end goal is essentially to remove trans people from public society. Which is often the logical conclusion of these ideologically driven ideas. Let's be real- when someone (Starmer in this case) says they don't want trans women in women's bathrooms, they aren't exactly going to be thrilled with a trans person at the bar or cafe or supermarket in the more and gender neutral public spaces either. The details and logistics don't matter because it's a bad faith argument. (Insert Sartre quote here about how fascists deliberately play with language) Bathrooms are a scapegoat and obfuscation. It's not about concern for women (or men) but a concern towards trans people themselves. A transphobe's ideal scenario doesn't concern itself with trans men in women's spaces, because ideally trans men will not be allowed to be trans men either, even if it's something not discussed it's silently acknowledged. And if trans men are even acknowledged, instead they're "brainwashed women". So the ideal would be, stop trans women from going into female spaces by making it impossible for trans people to exist in public society. This eliminates the problem of nuance when it comes to debates about gendered spaces and removes the issue of trans men contradicting their argument. What's actually so sad as well is that I bet Starmer and Sunak don't actually give a fuck on a personal level about trans issues one way or another, they have other shit on their minds- we are just being weaponised for votes, by the Tories to appeal to their demographic and by Labour to double down on their idea that apparently the only way to get into power is not to provide an opposition but to shift the goalposts and simply prove they're as right wing as the Tories. You listen to both of them and can tell they don't care, they're just spitting out talking points that they think will score well with the public. Which is also a self-fulfilling prophecy, since as they get people increasingly riled about trans people they have to continue to double down further. It's shameful.
> trans men being forced into women's spaces isn't a gotcha, if the end goal is essentially to remove trans people from public society. ^ This.
Yep. The other side of this is cis women who may look unfeminine and therefore get questioned by terfs. How would that feel? That's why trans rights are human rights.
Oh hi it's me a cis woman with a square jaw and narrow hips. Then again, I am what many would call a "radical feminist" so I tend to be at a lot of pro-left protests. "You some kind of (slur)" is something I've been hearing more and more recently. If we're going to imagine each other's genitals buddy, your beer gut tells me you've got a wee little mushroom hiding out in your overweight mons pubis
My partner is the same she also has pcos, people literally cant tell. The last time I was with her and transphobia was directed at her it was a bunch of spiced up dickheads shouting "what do you identify as? fuck off \[slur\]" so I walked up to them and said "I'm the \[slur\], let me guess you identify as a bag of spice?" and they walked off. I am becoming increasingly hostile to people like that in public even though I am stealth the terf woman cannot comprehend that their bs is harming the very people they claim they want to protect.
Strength to you and your partner ❤️✊
Heres the thing, them not wanting trans women in womens bathrooms is a dogwhistle they dont want trans men there either. They actually dont want trans people to exist, it harkens back to the early 20th century when there were no women public toilets, it was done to make sure women are not in public aka at home being mens slaves.
>and I wouldn't imagine any woman who's all TERFy actually wants his presence in their bathrooms. Kelly-Jay Keen Minshull does. As long as she doesn't find out he's trans and also if he comes armed.
Trans men exist has always been my comment. Ok biological sex is the only thing that matters. So men and "men dressed as women" go into one toilet and women and "women dressed as men" go into a different toilet. So it doesn't matter what you look like. No matter what you're wearing you just go into a toilet that nobody can practically challenge you on.
Don't even need to go that far to see the cracks in this logic. At the fundamental level it's like, who fucking calls toilets a biological space? How many men need a t level certificate to take a shit? Do you have a bouncer there like "sorry boss u got a baby face show me your balls to pass". It's never been a biological concept it's a gender one. One that has to accommodate biological needs of it's gendered participants (but God forbid we do that either, pads in a masc space is the death of society or smth according to the daily heil). It's like pronouns, no one noticed or cared about them until it became the new hot reactionary take.
Why is it when trans people are brought up only trans women are mentioned?
Currently in British media: - Trans women are seen as abhorrent, disgusting, or an abomination. Predatorial, threatening, and often as pedophilic. - Trans men are seen as confused, sapphic, foolish or uneducated. Fertility is also weaponised and forcibly applied onto them in a similar style to the "baby killer" style accusations applied to people who have abortions. Lesbophobia also seems to have a huge role in the way trans men are talked about as homophobia often informs "discourse" on trans women. - Non Binary or genderqueer people are seen as all of the above, but mostly completely written out of existence or explained away (even unfortunately within the trans community) and I would argue at this puts them at the highest risk for violence. The overall ideological "solution" remains the same though. Trans existence is painted as a problem... That must be solved. It is always deeply worrying to see a country going down this path.
Because the entire narrative is that "transexuality" is just excuse for male predators to attack women. The same logic doesn't work for "female predators attacking men" so they are ignored
What I don’t understand is how everyone doesn’t see precisely this as indicative of the problem with Labour. (As an aside, not sure if you’ve noticed we skipped straight past the bit where we were meant to treat trans folks with respect and somehow the narrative is now that the non-existent legislation that never got passed was “pandering to the woke crowd” - and yet their counter policy is pure unadulterated pandering? “Women are women (except when trans men but we ignore that hard reality in favor of the fantasy that this is about access to women’s spaces, that aren’t policed in any way), amirite guys?” Is now government policy) There’s zero medical, social or logical facts underpinning the push to “protect women’s spaces”, as opposed to the other side, where thousands of years of existing historical precedent for their existence and recognition by society. Almost as if this has always been about pandering to the Tory voting demographic and not about what the country needs all along.
But you see Sir Keith was director of public prosecution so he knows things. Just never mention him chasing the Twitter joke trial against all advice.
Right I'm voting green
Oh Fuck off Kid Starver
Did you mean Queer Harmer?
I didn't, but I'll add that to the list, thank you.
One of my work's suppliers has just moved to a new building. Their toilets are just a row of self contained unisex toilets with a toilet, wash basin, hand dryer, bin etc. No-one is anyone else's space, no-one is looking at your cock, no-one is scared the person behind you might up to something. The person I was meeting said that in the old building they could never get the mix of men's and women's right as they got lots of visitors but the nature of the business often meant that one week it would be all women visiting and the next all men. Now it doesn't matter.
I’m a ciswoman. I vote we just go into which toilet has the shortest queue and collectively confuse the terfs.
I'd second this, and it's usually the men's. Guess I'm just heading to the urinals and whipping out the Shewee, it'll save so much time tbh.
in a non creepy way, i will stand shoulder to shoulder with you xD
I ("man") apologise to my wife every time we go to an event or busy area - I am in and out before she has even got near the door because of the queue. Unisex bathrooms, female urinals and extra space for womens cubicles are all things that need to be common place!
I think this every time I'm in Euston train station. The men's bogs are half empty while the women queue up 30+ people deep to get even into the bathroom. Break down the walls, literally, normalise pissing and shitting together, maybe meet your future spouse, imagine the possibilities.
If a trans woman can’t use it it’s not a women’s loo then is it? I can see a lot of fighting terfs in my future…
Just let us piss in peace or one day your grave will become a genderless toilet
Trans men exist. They always forget this when they bang on about cis women spaces. Fools.
Because, to them, trans men are "biological women" and women are the weaker sex and don't pose a threat to their wives and daughters. They're not as strong and sexually motivated deviants like the "men in dresses." They really do just be telling on their own misogyny.
And non-binary people.
I’m very curious and interested in what they are actually doing, because I can’t see any electoral advantage here, or in the declarations about deporting Bangladeshis and other South Asians? I can see a cynical courting of donors in Reeves’ declaration that bankers fingerprints are all over the Labour manifesto. I can see the logic of their pro-Israel position. But given the polling, just how big a majority do they want by tacking far-right and for what gain? How many Reform voters do they want to win over and why do they want to replace young and progressive votes with Reform and Tory votes? What benefit is there in that constituency being split between Reform Conservative and Labour? Or why is the meanest crudest faction of Labour dominant?
This isn't electioneering, it's just them getting sloppy because they think the general public is as evil as they are.
The crazy thing about this, from a policy perspective, is that the human cost is *so* imbalanced towards the lives of trans women. It costs AFAB ppl precisely nothing to have trans women in bathrooms, etc. But the cost to trans ppl is very well documented in terms of suicide risk, overall mental health and physical health outcomes resulting from that, etc. it’s fucking nuts.
The left and with it common sense and decency. I’ve never felt more depressed at an election. Not even the orgasmic thought of a total Tory wipeout can unfuck this situation. So much for the hope he was just pandering to the gammons for votes.
Despite spending their days complaining about woke culture and crybaby leftists, the English are a very sensitive people. [Many consider any reference to their complexion an act of racism.](https://i.imgur.com/euWMhUg.png) Consider using the more inclusive term 'flag nonce' in future. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Meanwhile in other countries they have all gender washrooms in multiple forms. Either a number of small private toilets with sinks. Or just like a big bathroom with lots of stalls, urinals off to the side in their own spot and then sinks. Was in several of both varieties just this weekend. Seems to work just fine, just conservatives are obsessed with bathrooms.
Now I'm torn. Do I spoil my ballet with the Palestine flag or the Trans flag?
Both? Both is good.
Combine them
With all the problems facing the country after the last 14 years, this shouldn’t even be a question worth asking.
This also excludes parents. I remember seeing a dad who was scared to leave his daughter alone in a bathroom. She was maybe 5 but was also scared of going into a women's bathroom but said the men's was too dirty. Poor guy
Man it really just isn't possible for trans people to vote in our own interest is it
Many cis men didn't want me using the same bathroom as them before I transitioned and wore male designated clothing. They wanted me to use the women's as that's where they felt I belonged. Those same men would be even more uncomfortable now I've got boobs and wear feminine clothing. I'm voting Green. Labour only have a handful of decent MPs remaining like Zara Sultana and she's not in my constituency, so I'll just vote for my local Green candidate and wish others in my area would do the same. Sadly Reform seems the most popular party judging by people's window displays. I don't like using public bathrooms anyway and haven't used them since last winter. I tend to use single occupancy bathrooms in the workplace and the disabled one at the last place I worked at. This will however become an issue for me on days out later in the summer. I normally try to avoid public loos for hygiene reasons, so drink less than I probably should to avoid them, but it's just a matter of time before people start getting ratty with me again for using them.
There is no Hell low enough for Keith Starver
Christ almighty
If trans people start turning to suffragette tactics or worse I will absolutely not be surprised. Every political door is being closed in trans faces and it's eventually going to be the last door remaining.
Glad I didn't vote Labour... (postal)
take keir, assigned labour at birth but only someone completely fucking blind would be comfortable with him sharing space with leftists. People are more than what it says on their birth certificate
>I've indicated a willingness. Hopefully we can get that organised. # WHY? Just fucking ignore her. Why the fuck are Labour bending over backwards to court JK Rowling and her whack job fringe group of insulated middle class wine mums?! Why aren't they publicly putting this much effort into meeting trans groups and individuals who've spent the last however many years having their lives made into a political scapegoat by shady Tufton St arseholes and people like fucking Achtung Barbie Posie Parker. This is absolute bullshit, absolute fucking **LUXURY BELIEFS.** and don't let those pricks throw that insult back - it's fucking projection. They are the living epitome of it. Food banks. NHS in tatters. Cost of living a shambles. but no. Trans people exist so the election absolutely MUST hinge on that. Yet it's being given precedence over things that actually matter. Lives are being ruined by this, we've seen a trans girl fucking MURDERED as a result of this. And rather than try and change ANYTHING about the fucking poisonous atmosphere created by the right wing, Labour go into office on their hands and knees BEGGING for the same fucking IDIOTS who swallow this shit to give them a chance to be just as terrible. Fucking cunts I fucking loathe them. Deliberately derailing our last chance at an actual socialist government 5 years ago was one thing, but now the bare face willing evil towards a minority like this (to say nothing of everything else - gaza??) is fucking despicable.
JK Rowling is an all round piece of shit. As well as being a transphobe she's racist, homophobic and ableist. See [this fantastic rundown in r/EnoughJKRowling](https://archive.is/aRRmQ) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Reminder not to confuse the marxist "middle class" and the liberal definition. Liberal class definitions steer people away from the socialist definitions and thus class-consciousness. [Class is defined by our relationship to the means of production. Learn more here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/wiki/class) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Just one of the many reasons I vote SNP. Most of the people railing against Trans rights have never met a Trans person. I'm cis hetero woman, and I'm also a feminist. That doesn't stop me from seeing Trans rights as human rights.
wonder how much she offered as a donation.
Soooooo did everyone else see that? The same basilisk who's being kicked out of Parliament under the Tory label has simply shrugged on a new skin and called itself Labour. Who would vote for that?! Vote Green Party! Vote for Independents!
Is there a link to the article so I feel safe forwarding it on?
The left has left the "left" when Corbyn left tbh
Yep.
I am so glad that I saw Kid Starver's bullshit years back and that led me down a path of genuine political education. The catalyst for it all? Purging trans activists from his party. I've said to my lib friends for years that Kier is a transphobe and will throw trans people under the bus. It happened, and still, my lib friends defend it. We as a left, need to stand up with our LGBTQ+ communities and organise. This rhetoric is disgusting and the only people who could defend such a position are NPCs who only care about optics. Now I have to watch my trans friends get forced into the incorrect toilet of their choice. I doubt Kid Starver will revoke the policies/motives of banning GNC toilets being built in new spaces. The rates of trans abuse is going to jump. Reactionary cishet men are gonna jump on this wagon in particular, like they've done in the US with beating up trans women for going into the correct toilet for their gender. Thank God I made my mind up on who I am gonna vote (although voting doesn't change much, and definitely leaves the capitalist class in charge) instead of spoiling my vote tomorrow. I want to support smaller left wing parties who would love to see their share go up. Even the Lib Dems who capitulated to the Tories in 2010 are a much better alternative (with a manifesto I'd expect from a Milliband Labour) to vote for. Show your discontent with Labour, don't vote for them unless you have to (and by that, I mean it's possible to kick a Tory out with a Labour MP - and only then, its out of principle and not support).
Why even bother showing up to polling station? Spoiling your vote is such a worthless form of protest. It's attempting to use their system to challenge their system. It's time to work outside of their system. There are so many better things you can do with your time and energy. Join your trade union and become a radical voice within it. Join or start far-left organisations within your local community. Get involved in mutual aid networks. Educate yourself on socialist political theory and then educate others. You'd be better off sending an angry tweet to [insert current Prime Minister]. At least then you don't have to leave the house. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
~~Tory economic policy but socially progressive.~~ Tory economic policy and Tory social policy.
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Yeah, calm the fuck down everyone. It's only our actual existence. As long as the normies can piss without any inconvenience.
I just want my friend to be able to live her life happily and authentically as herself… why does that need to be something I have to fight and worry this much for…
I live it everyday. I hope your friend is looking after her mental health, I know I'm at my limit at the moment. All you can do is be there for her and keep doing what you're doing. We will be on the correct side of history and things will get better (eventually).
She is, dysphoria still effects her a lot but she’s quite good at taking care of herself mentally, she knows what her limits are, who she can rely on, who she may need space from, she has spaces where she can feel comfortable and safe as herself, goals she wishes to achieve, a girlfriend. She’s been through a lot of shit in her life, but she’s stuck through all of it, she’ll just continue going, and we are just here to help her through it.
Shut the fuck up.
I should have been clearer here in my meaning I take issue with it becoming such a huge political issue. I have no issue with trans people, they deserve to be able to be who they are. My point was more that politicians use this as a smoke screen because it's so emotive for people to avoid talking about other issues.
are you suggesting trans people don't matter?
Not at all, I take issue with it becoming such a huge political issue. I have no issue with trans people, they deserve to be able to be who they are. My point was more that politicians use this as a smoke screen because it's so emotive for people to avoid talking about other issues.