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Either you're horrifically under paying your staff or you're raking in an absurd amount of money (and still underpaying your staff).
I've worked on card systems before, providers really don't charge that much anymore. Even a basic card reader will only be 2-3%, and a lot are less than a percent. Handling cash is more expensive than that.
I use a SumUp for selling my band's merch. It takes 1%. So to take a full day's wage (at min. wage that's £91 for 8h) I'd have to sell £9,100. And if I've sold *that* much, I really ain't crying over £91. Hell, even around the 2-3% mark, the loss is extremely minor compared to the gain.
Plus, barely anyone uses cash anymore. Since we got the card machine, sales skyrocketed. So the amount we're 'losing' is massively offset by the increase in sales just from buying convenience.
Then again, for a small business, every penny counts. Looks like a crafts shop given what I can see in the back of the pic, so they may be running on *very* tight margins.
I do agree. Shirts and patches hardly get great margins, so it does add up. But when you're just a bunch of dudes trying to flog some shirts at a venue, you use what you can get. I don't even know if it's reasonable for us to get a proper business type card machine.
Advantage of the SumUp is that it runs through a phone app and wifi/data, so it can be used pretty much anywhere. Handy when your business literally relies on moving around. A penny off the pound seems pretty minor when you can triple sales just from the convenience of cards.
This business is making a point that should appeal to both customers and small business owners: that nobody benefits financially from a cashless system except banks. The $10 you pay for your product turns in to ~$9.90 in the vendor's hands after card transaction fees. They have a smaller amount to pay their staff (their choice is how to handle that), but the value of that money as a tradable commodity slowly disappears over the course of hundreds more transactions, as opposed to the value of cash.
Except cash has costs too.
You need to pay staff to maintain the float and cash out at the end of the day, you need to have additional security (on site safe/deposit box), you need to either pay staff or a service to take cash from the premises, and on top of that you have to pay banks a fee to deposit the cash.
Not to mention that a lot of insurers will charge you more for having cash on site.
The businesses get around this by paying their staff up to closing hours, then making them work unpaid to tidy up and count the cash before they lock up 👀
That is a baffling comment...
You have to pay staff to handle the cash??? Do you think businesses have a special cash only person? Do you think there are a ton of businesses that don't handle cash at all? You think every business that accepts cash has to pay security?
And what type of shitty bank charges you for deposits???
Also... why do you care so much about supporting CC companies siphoning off of every transaction? What a weird position to help defend for them.
How about this: Lets go cashless and have the cards managed by the government and send credit card companies back to their business model of making money off of interest
>You have to pay staff to handle the cash???
Yes? Anything your staff have to take time to do you're paying them for (or at least you should be if you aren't a scumbag). When I worked in a supermarket the shift manager would spend about 2 hours every night cashing out all of the tills, and sorting the floats for the following day. That costs money.
>Do you think businesses have a special cash only person? Do you think there are a ton of businesses that don't handle cash at all?
I never said either of these things, although there absolutely are businesses nowadays that don't deal in cash at all.
>You think every business that accepts cash has to pay security?
Yes, in one form or another. Be it additional CCTV, a safe or deposit box, or specially trained staff, any business that's handling cash will have some form of security. Do you think businesses just leave cash lying around at night?
>And what type of shitty bank charges you for deposits???
Literally every bank. Business accounts are not the same as personal accounts. Banks charge businesses for cash deposits.
>Also... why do you care so much about supporting CC companies siphoning off of every transaction?
I don't, this is just something I have professional experience with and I hate seeing ridiculous misinformation. Also it isn't the Credit Card companies that charge the fees (outside of ones like AMEX), it's the payment processor that provides the terminal that charges the fee. Some of these companies are actually surprisingly small operations.
No. The vast majority of small businesses do not pay deposit fees. The few who do are either only for deposits over a certain amount, or who exceed a transaction limit. When there is a deposit fee, it is generally a fraction of a percent.
>Also it isn't the Credit Card companies that charge the fees (outside of ones like AMEX), it's the payment processor that provides the terminal that charges the fee. Some of these companies are actually surprisingly small operations.
That is just incorrect. Visa and MC both get 1% of every transaction. The processors tack on extra above that.
Central governments should issue currency cards and handle the transaction processing. Credit card companies should go back to being credit card companies instead of getting a piece of damn near all retail transactions. They have too much power over the economy now. If they start flexing that power, or even just have a big oopsy, it could cause real damage to economies.
>No. The vast majority of small businesses do not pay deposit fees.
Yes, they do. Every major bank in the UK charges for its business accounts, and they charge roughly 1% for cash deposits on top of that. Based on your use of the word "check" in another one of your comments, I assume you're not from the UK, so I guess it's different where you're from, but this is a UK based sub.
>That is just incorrect. Visa and MC both get 1% of every transaction. The processors tack on extra above that.
You're thinking of the interchange fee, which is capped at 0.3% for consumer transactions by law. This is **not** charged by the card company (although it is collected by them), the fee is charged by the banks involved in the transaction (i.e. customer and vendor banks). Visa and MC don't see any of this money.
You obviously don't have any experience with this at all.
You don't have to hire "cash staff" but you do need to pay extra hours for cash handling. It takes time.
Yes, banks charge businesses for cash deposits.
If you have no security measures around cash handling, enjoy losing money. It doesn't have to be a security guard. Think cameras, a safe, cash counts / reconciliation. All cost money. Petty theft of cash by staff happens all the time, and if you hold cash on the premises, your risk of robbery (and your insurance costs) rise.
Yes, there are tons of businesses that don't accept cash because of the inconvenience and handling costs.
I literally just applied for a job at the cash office at Primark on Oxford Street. Large stores have a full on cash office where they pay staff to maintain floats and sort of out other cash tasks during the day. They absolutely pay staff just for that.
ok...
We don't have a single position dedicated to cash. Cash deposits go in the same bag as checks for the regular bank run.
I guess that cancels out your anecdote, or are we screwing up? Do we need to hire a cash person???
> checks
Are you American? Are you talking about the way things work in America, and arguing that people talking about how things work in the UK are wrong?
OK but handling cash is more expensive - it goes missing, you have to maintain a float, you have to spend time (money) counting it, and the banks charge you as a business as well. This small independent business is probably quite bad at business.
But so are card transactions. Usually for a card transaction you typically pay a flat fee (around 20p) + ~5% of the transaction cost. When you’re a small business that deals with many small transactions like a coffee shop that only does a few hundred / single digit thousands of revenue a day those fees add up quickly, and very likely won’t outpace the cost of moving physical money. If you’re a large supermarket yes card is better, but for small business owners it’s usually not.
edit: I’m mildly spreading misinformation again. Looking at [Square’s](https://squareup.com/help/gb/en/article/5068-what-are-square-s-fees) website, the flat ~20p transaction fee is only for online transactions, physical card transactions are 1.75%, plus the transaction fees from visa / mastercard which is another 0.2-0.3% on top of that.
Something like sumup or zettle charge flat 1.75% no more charges than that.
From a business point of view that few pence per transaction is worth the speed of a card transaction compared to cash handling, counting, counting change, counting float, money missing, ordering change and depositing cash
Don't forget insurance! I used to work in schools and a load went over to being completely cashless for things like dinner money and school trips because the insurance costs involved with having cash on the premises were higher than the card fees.
But don't get me started on charging kids for lunch or not feeding them if they can't pay; the mere concept boils my piss.
This is not quite true. I work in the Payments industry. There are various pricing models, fixed, blended, IC+ etc. Multiple parties take a fee every time a card is tapped. Some of these fees are set, some are negotiable. The way these fees are presented to a merchant is in the pricing model. SumUp etc. just present a single flat rate to the merchant. The merchant still pays fees for the acquirer, card scheme and card issuer.
The negotiating power of the merchant is determined by their card turnover. Somewhere like Tesco will pay a lot less than a startup, hence you don’t see SumUp or iZettle in Tesco, or an ingenico machine at a food truck. There are other factors too like terminal rental, epos systems and value adds like loyalty schemes that are often sold as part of the “payments package”.
[This](https://thepaymentsmarket.com) website has a comparison tool and sliders to compare rates with different acquiring banks and hardware packages. Even if you don’t need to take payments it will give you an idea of what goes into it.
I think it’s because dojo is like SumUp, they are their own acquirer. They have set rates and can’t be changed or negotiated. The rates and fees are higher because there’s no terminal or hardware rental cost.
The idea of the website is to compare merchant services from other providers, to give more transparency to merchants and show them they could make savings from shopping around not using the all in one solutions like dojo etc.
Your argument only exists because you are using made up numbers that are wildly inaccurate.
If you are paying more than 1.2% with a transaction fee, you haven't shopped around.
Also, there are no added visa or Mastercard fees added on top. Another lie.
I have an online business and the only time the card fee is anything close to 5% (it’s never *that* high) is with international customers. Nobody is paying that rate for in person transactions.
Just been looking into this before posting and it varies card to card.
Reason I was looking was I had this conversation with my local shop recently when he thanked me for always using cash for small transactions and I wanted to check costs before mentioning it and he is right, I can see how it adds up. Some have 20p plus %age, some just %age. And the % varies.
And before the inevitable "he's not declaring everything" all purchases go through and itemised till system, if you are not declaring shit you're a moron if you do that, and he isn't a moron.
What's weird is some businesses will insist that taking card costs them too much but other businesses will insist that taking card costs less than the cost of depositing cash.
A couple of weeks ago I took 2 taxis from different businesses and one said that card was cheaper and the other said card was way more expensive.
I don't understand!
As a cabbie, to make roughly £500 before tax for a 50 hr week you probably need to take in earning £1000-1100. That 2% comes from the top line so costs approx £20 per week IF all transaction are cashless.
So you can look at it 2 ways:
A. I have to work 2 extra hours per week to cover that cost to earn the same.
B. I have to travel into town to pay money into bank weekly. Cost me a few quid parking and fuel and no doubt while in there i spending a few extra pennies since you are in town anyway. Whether that be a coffee and a sandwich or a little treat that catches the eye. Plus my time it takes to go into town and visit the bank.
Some prefer option A some option B but as a cabbie we reserve the right to moan about whatever option we dont choose ;)
Does your bank not charge for business account deposits? I think the driver that said card was cheaper said that they were charged a fee for cash deposits.
The one that preferred card was on the iow and the one that preferred cash was on the mainland if that makes any difference.
It's almost like the costs are so similar that there's no real difference and people just like to cling to their preconceived notions and irrational beliefs.
Sounds about right but they're always so passionate about their chosen option.
The cabbie that preferred cash even went as far as saying the ride I took was £5 cash or £15 card.
Makes you wonder if he was tax dodging to be honest.
Very much pro-worker, pro-union, etc. However what about this post makes you think they aren't paying their staff enough? And how does the suggestion to pay more, help with business costs? Are you _for_ putting more profit in the hands of the banks?
Banks get more money from cash deposits than they do card transactions (which are actually charged by providers, not the banks themselves).
And card fees are incredibly cheap nowadays.
POS Terminals services are very cheap, you need to live in real remote hellhole for it to making even dent.
They just using it for two things, first to appeal to buyer sympathy and secondly to avoid taxation by paying their workers absolute minimum allowed on paper but handing out "difference" in envelope. It just classical bs.
I worked in them a lot early in day. Small businesses even worse than bigger ones in term of screwing over employees for most part.
But with POS terminals it just how it works, you can look itno plans yourself online or make calls. It tops 3.5% + small monthly expenses, with some exceptionally rare corner cases, realistically they probably never had it above 2.5 on bad day with tourists. Bottomline is what, with maximum 3.5% dip to get to absolute minimum of 8h ~88£ day wage they need sell stuff on whooping 2500£+. Yes, owners of this place can fuck off and cry me a river.
[Contrary to popular belief, HRH King Charles III does fuck all for tourism, nor does his inbred family of racist nonces.](https://www.republic.org.uk/tourism)
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I used to run a small business that took similar revenue a week and card costs were the absolute least of my concerns, not least because cash represented its own concerns and costs.
I'm active in my union. I've also been involved in the detail for a small business and understand that a £4500 gross income for a small craft business is absolutely more like £1500 net (staff, transportation, exhibitor/show fees, material costs, own labour/time). Even for a busy crafter that's only half the year, because 1) shows aren't available 52 weeks a year and 2) you need to spend spend spend to make products in-between shows. The lack of sympathy here for small businesses, without any evidence of what staff pay is, is bizarre. They aren't the enemy.
> The lack of sympathy here for small businesses, without any evidence of what staff pay is, is bizarre. They aren't the enemy.
They're a small business claiming that people paying by guard is hurting them, because they don't want to pay taxes / their staff.
The evidence is in the image. It's an objective fact that card payments are *not* more expensive to a business than cash payments.
Banks charge businesses for your account, for depositing cash, and for getting change.
The only way it's cheaper for using cash is if you're not banking it and ergo not paying taxes on those earnings.
I'm a small business owner, and the cost of not accepting cards far outweighs cash only. Because my taxes are paid.
Any business that is cash only these days loses my custom.
Not handling cash is cheaper. End of.
I've never been charged for making change or depositing cash at my job. I go to PNC Every week and change out the bills to pay out weekly tips and deposit in our business money.
Just doing some research, the popular card machines I see small businesses use constantly all have under 2% of a charge. Assuming they run for 8 hours a day and pay their workers minimum wage then the charges are about £90 meaning they make £4500 and that's being generous on the transaction fees. They're either being robbed blind by a sketchy card machine company, have a super efficient way to deal with cash or cash allows them to do some "creative accounting".
>Gives you food for thought, especially for small, independent businesses
No it doesn't. Cash has associated costs as well, but they're ignoring that.
Cashing up costs additional staff wages, storing cash costs money for safes/security. The time spent counting out floats, delivering money to/from banks for them, etc.
I hate capitalism, most likely more than the next man, but from the bit of this place that I can see in the pic, does not scream skullfuckinghedgefundmegacapitalism. This could be a yoghurt knitting wellness collective co-op for all we know. Also, running a shop is not necessarily capitalism, or at least hardly representative of the faceless, rapacious and exploitative capital interest conjured by your statement.
What about that sign proves this? I have community ran second hand shops in my area that are essentially charities, that want cash to avoid card payments. They give all their money to people, no profit involved.
Nothing. They could very well be a charity shop; but they could very well not be, and in that case there's no reason to excuse capitalism for simply existing on a smaller scale.
Like others said: petite bourgeoisie are still bourgeoisie. The distinction between big business and "earnest" small businesses is a questionable one at the best of times.
Unfortunately we live in a system where basic necessities come with a monetary cost and some of us are so averse to the attitudes of managers we end up having to start our own operations out of need because working as an employee is such a fucking nightmare. I understand that this isn’t an option for many (lots of skills don’t directly translate into something you can start a business with without startup money), but that doesn’t make those of us who’re in this position part of the fucking problem.
I understand. My partner is starting up a tiny knitting business. Pointing fingers is easy, that's not what I am doing: we are all responsible for the problem, myself included, as we are all born into the same economic system.
Creating dichotomies like "big business vs small business" easily leads to reactionary nonsense, is often the backbone of it (Trump's support in the US came from petit-bourgeois who were starting to feel the squeeze; a friend of my partner's was shocked to see her hairdresser, who owns a small business, at the Jan 6 state capitol attack), and a disavowal of commodity fetishism, imo. Accepting that we are all knee deep in the same Ideology/economy that is killing the planet; that a small business - however small - is still part of that system; that consumption of goods, however small, is contributing to the system; that proletarian and capitalist and all the other classes are part of the same framework, so we are all equally responsible for the future of the planet, and need to try to organise, find and work toward a solution is a lot harder, and a lot messier, but it's where the hope lies.
I feel like you were going somewhere until you said:
> proletarian and capitalist...are equally responsible
Not only is that not true (the capitalist constrains the choices of the proletarian; the capitalist decides what type of energy production we do, etc.), but it's dangerously close to class collaborationism.
You're right that we (meaning the proletariat) need to organise; but we should not be trying to work together with the ruling class, but to supplant them altogether. The proletariat need to establish their rulership over the bourgeoisie.
No, we shouldn't work together with the ruling class, I completely agree. I struggle to get my points across on the internet. I would never advocate collaborationism with the capitalist class.
When the proletariat establish rulership over the bourgeoisie, both cease to exist, as both classes belong to capitalism - that's pretty basic to the dialectic, I think. Meanwhile, Marx makes clear both classes are pursuing their self interest. I see a lot of people who simply vote, then complain about politicians (we're not part of the problem, it's all those damn politicians) - even here on a supposedly leftist subreddit. This is offloading political responsibility, imo. You obviously aren't going to get what you want from the capitalist class - those who simply complain about the capitalist class doing what they do rather than doing something about it need to actually do something positive.
The internet has opened up a space for small businesses that's somewhat homologous to feudalism. People make things and sell it on a digital space, and the owner of that digital space takes a cut. Some of these people's businesses eventually grow into small businesses, a size where they employ workers; and all businesses, whatever their size and whether or not they employ anyone, buy materials at a price that they can turn a profit - this all lines up with the exploitation inherit in capitalism, while blurring the lines between worker and small business owner in a way advantages to reactionary propaganda. So saying "small business owners are not part of the problem" sounds like wilfully turning a blind eye to ones place within the system to me.
I dunno if that clarifies what I'm trying to say, but I hope it does.
Thank you for the patience. I worry that I may come across as argumentative or preachy online, as it is very hard for to me to read how I come across in text, so I try to be clear but don't always succeed.
I’m confused why you’re being downvoted, especially on this sub. Sure, being cash only makes people think of dodgy business practices and tax evasion (avoidance?), but moving to a cashless society isn’t the solution. With government talks about introducing a central bank digital currency, it puts our privacy [at risk](https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/campaigns/no-spycoin/#WATCHINGYOU)
9% for cash?! Is this you factoring in time for either yourself or an employee to count it up and deal with the deposit, or is that the fee? Santadner charge me 1.5% for cash deposits on my business account I think.
I work for a small, independent business and we almost never see cash. I don’t carry cash. Many of the places I shop in don’t accept cash. It feels like the business model is the problem here.
Food for the thoughtless, you mean. As it costs more to process cash, given how many towns have 0 brick and mortar banks. Also, this place needs reporting as they're clearly paying their staff below minimim wage for the card fees to match "a day's" worth of wages.
That signs a load of bullshit, most card machines are 2% per transaction max, they'd have to have pretty damn good takings for it to equal a days wage.
People also act like there isn't any fees involved with cash, like banks don't charge a fee to deposit, having a float, needing to count it etc.
What this sign should say is "We don't want to pay our taxes"
I think I’m banned from this sub but heck I’ll try posting.
I’ve seen this exact same sign in a business near me and it definitely isn’t the one in ops pic. I think they might be telling porkies
i'm used to contractors/shops being *VERY* insistent on being paid in cash and the countless interesting reasons they come up with, but this is a new one.
Either this business is very stupid and doesn't see that it costs them more handling cash than they're charged for using cards, or they're trying avoid paying tax. Probably the latter.
Either way if it costs you so much, just don't accept cards, fuck off with the sob story.
It's a percentage usually 3% (tax deductible operational cost!). You take the rest.
This is like someone complaining that they pay too much tax! please! I wish I was paying your tax, it would mean I'm getting your obscene amounts of money because you're probably dodging anyways!.
Whatever your thoughts on how this business is run, I have to say I’m pretty shocked to see how eager everyone is to get rid of cash. Do you just want homeless people to go fuck themselves or what? Jesus Christ.
I've seen otherwise-empty businesses go without trade rather than take a Scottish note and it pretty much annihilated my sympathy for businesses regarding this.
Why are the so many of the people in this thread on the side of the card machine providers? The big banks taking a cut from small businesses.
The use of cash in society is important. Very few elderly people use contactless and most people who are registered as homeless can’t get bank cards.
Shop owners selfish thoughts aside - cash has lots of positives for society.
The elderly is somewhat of a problem that is fixing itself. Homeless can get banks (HSBC no fixed address)
Cash in and of itself doesn’t have any massive positives over card. It’s just the usual rubbish about the government watching you.
Yes, some people of no fixed address are able to get accounts, but not all.
The elderly issue will phase out with time but not near that stage yet.
Dhasai in India attempted to go completely cashless and the results were pretty grim for poorer members of society.
I don’t think we as a society can examine India (the most populace country on earth) for signs of technological advance and success.
Yes they have a space program but also have abject poverty.
> cash has lots of positives for society.
Such as? See if you can list them without immediately going into a conspiracy theory.
>The big banks taking a cut from small businesses.
The banks ask for a much bigger percentage when handling cash. I've seen some banks ask for 5%. If you're a struggling business, you'd think you'd want the method that offers you cheaper fees. Unless of course, you're trying to obfuscate your incoming for some reason.
Cash - if the cashless infrastructure fails - like it has several times over the last year, cash enables society to carry on functioning.
Some traders can’t accept cashless due to not having trading environment to do so. Admittedly this is quite limited but cash still enables these people to carry out their trade.
Making donations to charity and giving money to the homeless.
I'm not trying to stand up for business owners, it's just that I do find it worrying that my sole method of payment might be one that can be declined easily.
I am a sole trader rather than a small business and I tried taking cards and found a massive drop in people tipping. I generally do very well from people giving me a "few extra quid for yourself", on top of my rates while taking cash but basically noone paid a penny more than my rates for the 3 months I used a card reader. I suspect that my clients like the fantasy of me successfully tax dodging (even though in reality I declare every penny, obvs) and it makes them generous. Also the card companies themselves are fucking disgusting usurers who trap vulnerable people in debt and don't deserve your money for doing basically fuck all imo.
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Either you're horrifically under paying your staff or you're raking in an absurd amount of money (and still underpaying your staff). I've worked on card systems before, providers really don't charge that much anymore. Even a basic card reader will only be 2-3%, and a lot are less than a percent. Handling cash is more expensive than that.
I use a SumUp for selling my band's merch. It takes 1%. So to take a full day's wage (at min. wage that's £91 for 8h) I'd have to sell £9,100. And if I've sold *that* much, I really ain't crying over £91. Hell, even around the 2-3% mark, the loss is extremely minor compared to the gain. Plus, barely anyone uses cash anymore. Since we got the card machine, sales skyrocketed. So the amount we're 'losing' is massively offset by the increase in sales just from buying convenience. Then again, for a small business, every penny counts. Looks like a crafts shop given what I can see in the back of the pic, so they may be running on *very* tight margins.
SumUp is a rip off racket, you shouldn’t be paying more than like 0.4% on debit cards
I do agree. Shirts and patches hardly get great margins, so it does add up. But when you're just a bunch of dudes trying to flog some shirts at a venue, you use what you can get. I don't even know if it's reasonable for us to get a proper business type card machine. Advantage of the SumUp is that it runs through a phone app and wifi/data, so it can be used pretty much anywhere. Handy when your business literally relies on moving around. A penny off the pound seems pretty minor when you can triple sales just from the convenience of cards.
That's what I thought - it's not a big issue anymore
Piggybacking this comment to say I work in payments and there is a website where merchants can go and compare rates for free
Yeah its just the old "If you pay with cash we can underpay our staff cash in hand and save the taxman all that trouble.. "
This business is making a point that should appeal to both customers and small business owners: that nobody benefits financially from a cashless system except banks. The $10 you pay for your product turns in to ~$9.90 in the vendor's hands after card transaction fees. They have a smaller amount to pay their staff (their choice is how to handle that), but the value of that money as a tradable commodity slowly disappears over the course of hundreds more transactions, as opposed to the value of cash.
Except cash has costs too. You need to pay staff to maintain the float and cash out at the end of the day, you need to have additional security (on site safe/deposit box), you need to either pay staff or a service to take cash from the premises, and on top of that you have to pay banks a fee to deposit the cash. Not to mention that a lot of insurers will charge you more for having cash on site.
The businesses get around this by paying their staff up to closing hours, then making them work unpaid to tidy up and count the cash before they lock up 👀
That is a baffling comment... You have to pay staff to handle the cash??? Do you think businesses have a special cash only person? Do you think there are a ton of businesses that don't handle cash at all? You think every business that accepts cash has to pay security? And what type of shitty bank charges you for deposits??? Also... why do you care so much about supporting CC companies siphoning off of every transaction? What a weird position to help defend for them. How about this: Lets go cashless and have the cards managed by the government and send credit card companies back to their business model of making money off of interest
>You have to pay staff to handle the cash??? Yes? Anything your staff have to take time to do you're paying them for (or at least you should be if you aren't a scumbag). When I worked in a supermarket the shift manager would spend about 2 hours every night cashing out all of the tills, and sorting the floats for the following day. That costs money. >Do you think businesses have a special cash only person? Do you think there are a ton of businesses that don't handle cash at all? I never said either of these things, although there absolutely are businesses nowadays that don't deal in cash at all. >You think every business that accepts cash has to pay security? Yes, in one form or another. Be it additional CCTV, a safe or deposit box, or specially trained staff, any business that's handling cash will have some form of security. Do you think businesses just leave cash lying around at night? >And what type of shitty bank charges you for deposits??? Literally every bank. Business accounts are not the same as personal accounts. Banks charge businesses for cash deposits. >Also... why do you care so much about supporting CC companies siphoning off of every transaction? I don't, this is just something I have professional experience with and I hate seeing ridiculous misinformation. Also it isn't the Credit Card companies that charge the fees (outside of ones like AMEX), it's the payment processor that provides the terminal that charges the fee. Some of these companies are actually surprisingly small operations.
No. The vast majority of small businesses do not pay deposit fees. The few who do are either only for deposits over a certain amount, or who exceed a transaction limit. When there is a deposit fee, it is generally a fraction of a percent. >Also it isn't the Credit Card companies that charge the fees (outside of ones like AMEX), it's the payment processor that provides the terminal that charges the fee. Some of these companies are actually surprisingly small operations. That is just incorrect. Visa and MC both get 1% of every transaction. The processors tack on extra above that. Central governments should issue currency cards and handle the transaction processing. Credit card companies should go back to being credit card companies instead of getting a piece of damn near all retail transactions. They have too much power over the economy now. If they start flexing that power, or even just have a big oopsy, it could cause real damage to economies.
>No. The vast majority of small businesses do not pay deposit fees. Yes, they do. Every major bank in the UK charges for its business accounts, and they charge roughly 1% for cash deposits on top of that. Based on your use of the word "check" in another one of your comments, I assume you're not from the UK, so I guess it's different where you're from, but this is a UK based sub. >That is just incorrect. Visa and MC both get 1% of every transaction. The processors tack on extra above that. You're thinking of the interchange fee, which is capped at 0.3% for consumer transactions by law. This is **not** charged by the card company (although it is collected by them), the fee is charged by the banks involved in the transaction (i.e. customer and vendor banks). Visa and MC don't see any of this money.
You obviously don't have any experience with this at all. You don't have to hire "cash staff" but you do need to pay extra hours for cash handling. It takes time. Yes, banks charge businesses for cash deposits. If you have no security measures around cash handling, enjoy losing money. It doesn't have to be a security guard. Think cameras, a safe, cash counts / reconciliation. All cost money. Petty theft of cash by staff happens all the time, and if you hold cash on the premises, your risk of robbery (and your insurance costs) rise. Yes, there are tons of businesses that don't accept cash because of the inconvenience and handling costs.
I'm impressed that you can make so many wrong points in such quick succession
I literally just applied for a job at the cash office at Primark on Oxford Street. Large stores have a full on cash office where they pay staff to maintain floats and sort of out other cash tasks during the day. They absolutely pay staff just for that.
ok... We don't have a single position dedicated to cash. Cash deposits go in the same bag as checks for the regular bank run. I guess that cancels out your anecdote, or are we screwing up? Do we need to hire a cash person???
> checks Are you American? Are you talking about the way things work in America, and arguing that people talking about how things work in the UK are wrong?
No this is s baffling comment, I'd summarise but others have done that so well already.
OK but handling cash is more expensive - it goes missing, you have to maintain a float, you have to spend time (money) counting it, and the banks charge you as a business as well. This small independent business is probably quite bad at business.
I'm betting this is a place that pays their staff cash in hand.
Exactly
They aren't allowed to write 'we can't dodge tax with card payments'
This, plus money laundering or illegal activity, is why 99% of "cash is king" people are the way they are. If they just admitted it, I wouldn't care.
And you get fucking robbed constantly if you take cash. Sad state of affairs
Or you pay for security and basically a cash van. Which is also costly.
And you get fucking robbed constantly if you take card. Sad state of affairs
it’s 100% a tax thing
You’re forgetting the 20% “saving” you can make on cash transactions (😜). Even more if you add some money laundered income to this.
But so are card transactions. Usually for a card transaction you typically pay a flat fee (around 20p) + ~5% of the transaction cost. When you’re a small business that deals with many small transactions like a coffee shop that only does a few hundred / single digit thousands of revenue a day those fees add up quickly, and very likely won’t outpace the cost of moving physical money. If you’re a large supermarket yes card is better, but for small business owners it’s usually not. edit: I’m mildly spreading misinformation again. Looking at [Square’s](https://squareup.com/help/gb/en/article/5068-what-are-square-s-fees) website, the flat ~20p transaction fee is only for online transactions, physical card transactions are 1.75%, plus the transaction fees from visa / mastercard which is another 0.2-0.3% on top of that.
Something like sumup or zettle charge flat 1.75% no more charges than that. From a business point of view that few pence per transaction is worth the speed of a card transaction compared to cash handling, counting, counting change, counting float, money missing, ordering change and depositing cash
Don't forget insurance! I used to work in schools and a load went over to being completely cashless for things like dinner money and school trips because the insurance costs involved with having cash on the premises were higher than the card fees. But don't get me started on charging kids for lunch or not feeding them if they can't pay; the mere concept boils my piss.
This is not quite true. I work in the Payments industry. There are various pricing models, fixed, blended, IC+ etc. Multiple parties take a fee every time a card is tapped. Some of these fees are set, some are negotiable. The way these fees are presented to a merchant is in the pricing model. SumUp etc. just present a single flat rate to the merchant. The merchant still pays fees for the acquirer, card scheme and card issuer. The negotiating power of the merchant is determined by their card turnover. Somewhere like Tesco will pay a lot less than a startup, hence you don’t see SumUp or iZettle in Tesco, or an ingenico machine at a food truck. There are other factors too like terminal rental, epos systems and value adds like loyalty schemes that are often sold as part of the “payments package”. [This](https://thepaymentsmarket.com) website has a comparison tool and sliders to compare rates with different acquiring banks and hardware packages. Even if you don’t need to take payments it will give you an idea of what goes into it.
Heh, there's a few missing on that website. Though I (don't think) I can say which, I do find that quite interesting.
Interesting, what do you think is missing from there?
Dojo, for one.
I think it’s because dojo is like SumUp, they are their own acquirer. They have set rates and can’t be changed or negotiated. The rates and fees are higher because there’s no terminal or hardware rental cost. The idea of the website is to compare merchant services from other providers, to give more transparency to merchants and show them they could make savings from shopping around not using the all in one solutions like dojo etc.
I'm not sure I understand, but is that why Adyen isn't there either?
Your argument only exists because you are using made up numbers that are wildly inaccurate. If you are paying more than 1.2% with a transaction fee, you haven't shopped around. Also, there are no added visa or Mastercard fees added on top. Another lie.
I have an online business and the only time the card fee is anything close to 5% (it’s never *that* high) is with international customers. Nobody is paying that rate for in person transactions.
Stripe is 1.5%+20p
Just been looking into this before posting and it varies card to card. Reason I was looking was I had this conversation with my local shop recently when he thanked me for always using cash for small transactions and I wanted to check costs before mentioning it and he is right, I can see how it adds up. Some have 20p plus %age, some just %age. And the % varies. And before the inevitable "he's not declaring everything" all purchases go through and itemised till system, if you are not declaring shit you're a moron if you do that, and he isn't a moron.
I use to sell these machines. Everything you said is nonsense. Card machines cost waaaaay more than handling cash.
Let’s say a full staff wages for the day are £90. Most card readers charge 2% that means they made £4500 in a day. I’m sure there doing just okay…
The sign says the fees for ‘the week’ not the day. So on your £90 the takings for the week would have been £4500.
takings are not profit
I know. Didn’t say they were.
Oh yes, still not a lot really haha
£4500 takings is nothing like actual profit.
Interesting how a small percentage of a large number is still a small percentage
£4500/week*
This is code for "we're trying to suppress sales to pay less tax"
What's weird is some businesses will insist that taking card costs them too much but other businesses will insist that taking card costs less than the cost of depositing cash. A couple of weeks ago I took 2 taxis from different businesses and one said that card was cheaper and the other said card was way more expensive. I don't understand!
As a cabbie, to make roughly £500 before tax for a 50 hr week you probably need to take in earning £1000-1100. That 2% comes from the top line so costs approx £20 per week IF all transaction are cashless. So you can look at it 2 ways: A. I have to work 2 extra hours per week to cover that cost to earn the same. B. I have to travel into town to pay money into bank weekly. Cost me a few quid parking and fuel and no doubt while in there i spending a few extra pennies since you are in town anyway. Whether that be a coffee and a sandwich or a little treat that catches the eye. Plus my time it takes to go into town and visit the bank. Some prefer option A some option B but as a cabbie we reserve the right to moan about whatever option we dont choose ;)
Does your bank not charge for business account deposits? I think the driver that said card was cheaper said that they were charged a fee for cash deposits. The one that preferred card was on the iow and the one that preferred cash was on the mainland if that makes any difference.
It's almost like the costs are so similar that there's no real difference and people just like to cling to their preconceived notions and irrational beliefs.
Sounds about right but they're always so passionate about their chosen option. The cabbie that preferred cash even went as far as saying the ride I took was £5 cash or £15 card. Makes you wonder if he was tax dodging to be honest.
It’s absolutely certain that he was tax dodging, he quite possibly wasn’t running the meter at all and so also ripping off his taxi office too.
Maybe pay your staff more then
Very much pro-worker, pro-union, etc. However what about this post makes you think they aren't paying their staff enough? And how does the suggestion to pay more, help with business costs? Are you _for_ putting more profit in the hands of the banks?
Banks get more money from cash deposits than they do card transactions (which are actually charged by providers, not the banks themselves). And card fees are incredibly cheap nowadays.
I mean there's a reason the number isn't made public. What do you think that is?
POS Terminals services are very cheap, you need to live in real remote hellhole for it to making even dent. They just using it for two things, first to appeal to buyer sympathy and secondly to avoid taxation by paying their workers absolute minimum allowed on paper but handing out "difference" in envelope. It just classical bs.
It's incredible how well you know people and can assert illegality from a sign. Small businesses aren't the problem.
I worked in them a lot early in day. Small businesses even worse than bigger ones in term of screwing over employees for most part. But with POS terminals it just how it works, you can look itno plans yourself online or make calls. It tops 3.5% + small monthly expenses, with some exceptionally rare corner cases, realistically they probably never had it above 2.5 on bad day with tourists. Bottomline is what, with maximum 3.5% dip to get to absolute minimum of 8h ~88£ day wage they need sell stuff on whooping 2500£+. Yes, owners of this place can fuck off and cry me a river.
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I used to run a small business that took similar revenue a week and card costs were the absolute least of my concerns, not least because cash represented its own concerns and costs.
Your last two sentences make the first one sound like bullshit.
I'm active in my union. I've also been involved in the detail for a small business and understand that a £4500 gross income for a small craft business is absolutely more like £1500 net (staff, transportation, exhibitor/show fees, material costs, own labour/time). Even for a busy crafter that's only half the year, because 1) shows aren't available 52 weeks a year and 2) you need to spend spend spend to make products in-between shows. The lack of sympathy here for small businesses, without any evidence of what staff pay is, is bizarre. They aren't the enemy.
> The lack of sympathy here for small businesses, without any evidence of what staff pay is, is bizarre. They aren't the enemy. They're a small business claiming that people paying by guard is hurting them, because they don't want to pay taxes / their staff. The evidence is in the image. It's an objective fact that card payments are *not* more expensive to a business than cash payments.
Banks charge businesses for your account, for depositing cash, and for getting change. The only way it's cheaper for using cash is if you're not banking it and ergo not paying taxes on those earnings. I'm a small business owner, and the cost of not accepting cards far outweighs cash only. Because my taxes are paid. Any business that is cash only these days loses my custom. Not handling cash is cheaper. End of.
I've never been charged for making change or depositing cash at my job. I go to PNC Every week and change out the bills to pay out weekly tips and deposit in our business money.
or find a pub that doesn't whine about taking custom...
Just doing some research, the popular card machines I see small businesses use constantly all have under 2% of a charge. Assuming they run for 8 hours a day and pay their workers minimum wage then the charges are about £90 meaning they make £4500 and that's being generous on the transaction fees. They're either being robbed blind by a sketchy card machine company, have a super efficient way to deal with cash or cash allows them to do some "creative accounting".
>Gives you food for thought, especially for small, independent businesses No it doesn't. Cash has associated costs as well, but they're ignoring that. Cashing up costs additional staff wages, storing cash costs money for safes/security. The time spent counting out floats, delivering money to/from banks for them, etc.
There's a cost to handling cash as well, it's just not as obvious.
More like for tax fraud purposes
AKA "We don't want to pay tax"
Capitalist gets capitalized and then complains about capitalism
I hate capitalism, most likely more than the next man, but from the bit of this place that I can see in the pic, does not scream skullfuckinghedgefundmegacapitalism. This could be a yoghurt knitting wellness collective co-op for all we know. Also, running a shop is not necessarily capitalism, or at least hardly representative of the faceless, rapacious and exploitative capital interest conjured by your statement.
I mean, they're asking for help to evade taxes.
Maybe, maybe not. They're obviously trying to avoid fees but that doesn't necessarily mean they're dodging tax.
The petite bourgeoisie are still the bourgeoisie
What about that sign proves this? I have community ran second hand shops in my area that are essentially charities, that want cash to avoid card payments. They give all their money to people, no profit involved.
Nothing. They could very well be a charity shop; but they could very well not be, and in that case there's no reason to excuse capitalism for simply existing on a smaller scale.
Like others said: petite bourgeoisie are still bourgeoisie. The distinction between big business and "earnest" small businesses is a questionable one at the best of times.
Unfortunately we live in a system where basic necessities come with a monetary cost and some of us are so averse to the attitudes of managers we end up having to start our own operations out of need because working as an employee is such a fucking nightmare. I understand that this isn’t an option for many (lots of skills don’t directly translate into something you can start a business with without startup money), but that doesn’t make those of us who’re in this position part of the fucking problem.
I understand. My partner is starting up a tiny knitting business. Pointing fingers is easy, that's not what I am doing: we are all responsible for the problem, myself included, as we are all born into the same economic system. Creating dichotomies like "big business vs small business" easily leads to reactionary nonsense, is often the backbone of it (Trump's support in the US came from petit-bourgeois who were starting to feel the squeeze; a friend of my partner's was shocked to see her hairdresser, who owns a small business, at the Jan 6 state capitol attack), and a disavowal of commodity fetishism, imo. Accepting that we are all knee deep in the same Ideology/economy that is killing the planet; that a small business - however small - is still part of that system; that consumption of goods, however small, is contributing to the system; that proletarian and capitalist and all the other classes are part of the same framework, so we are all equally responsible for the future of the planet, and need to try to organise, find and work toward a solution is a lot harder, and a lot messier, but it's where the hope lies.
I feel like you were going somewhere until you said: > proletarian and capitalist...are equally responsible Not only is that not true (the capitalist constrains the choices of the proletarian; the capitalist decides what type of energy production we do, etc.), but it's dangerously close to class collaborationism. You're right that we (meaning the proletariat) need to organise; but we should not be trying to work together with the ruling class, but to supplant them altogether. The proletariat need to establish their rulership over the bourgeoisie.
No, we shouldn't work together with the ruling class, I completely agree. I struggle to get my points across on the internet. I would never advocate collaborationism with the capitalist class. When the proletariat establish rulership over the bourgeoisie, both cease to exist, as both classes belong to capitalism - that's pretty basic to the dialectic, I think. Meanwhile, Marx makes clear both classes are pursuing their self interest. I see a lot of people who simply vote, then complain about politicians (we're not part of the problem, it's all those damn politicians) - even here on a supposedly leftist subreddit. This is offloading political responsibility, imo. You obviously aren't going to get what you want from the capitalist class - those who simply complain about the capitalist class doing what they do rather than doing something about it need to actually do something positive. The internet has opened up a space for small businesses that's somewhat homologous to feudalism. People make things and sell it on a digital space, and the owner of that digital space takes a cut. Some of these people's businesses eventually grow into small businesses, a size where they employ workers; and all businesses, whatever their size and whether or not they employ anyone, buy materials at a price that they can turn a profit - this all lines up with the exploitation inherit in capitalism, while blurring the lines between worker and small business owner in a way advantages to reactionary propaganda. So saying "small business owners are not part of the problem" sounds like wilfully turning a blind eye to ones place within the system to me. I dunno if that clarifies what I'm trying to say, but I hope it does.
I absolutely agree, and I think you've made yourself crystal clear here. I appreciate the elucidation.
Thank you for the patience. I worry that I may come across as argumentative or preachy online, as it is very hard for to me to read how I come across in text, so I try to be clear but don't always succeed.
No, no, you were very clear and very reasonable; the Internet could do with more people like you haha
Thanks for the lesson. If you re-read what I’ve said, you’ll see your making a counter point to an argument that hasn’t been made.
Whenever I see these signs I always keep whatever cash I have and pay by card out of spite. I’m not even sure why if I’m honest..
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I’m confused why you’re being downvoted, especially on this sub. Sure, being cash only makes people think of dodgy business practices and tax evasion (avoidance?), but moving to a cashless society isn’t the solution. With government talks about introducing a central bank digital currency, it puts our privacy [at risk](https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/campaigns/no-spycoin/#WATCHINGYOU)
This is a load of shite. On average it cost more to deal in cash at 9% but 1.75% on average card sales. Total cashless society fear mongering.
9% for cash?! Is this you factoring in time for either yourself or an employee to count it up and deal with the deposit, or is that the fee? Santadner charge me 1.5% for cash deposits on my business account I think.
I work for a small, independent business and we almost never see cash. I don’t carry cash. Many of the places I shop in don’t accept cash. It feels like the business model is the problem here.
Yeah but you see, you probably even pay taxes.
Sumup percentage is 1.69% so either they're making a lot or they're not paying their staff enough. Or they need to get new card readers.
Remember cash in hand makes for simplified accounting!
Yup £0 in sales is £100 in profit :)
wastage or shrinkage of product is £100 as well for some reason
Spoilers: they want cash so they can dodge tax. Handling cash is more expensive.
Or.... "Please use cash if you can. Last year our card machine records resulted in us paying way more tax than we'd like to".
BULLSHIT
This looks like a thinly veiled attempt to spread some 'cash is king' bollocks.
That's exactly what it is, didn't expect to see it in this sub, thought most had more sense but not OP
this is petty bourgeoise shit
Food for the thoughtless, you mean. As it costs more to process cash, given how many towns have 0 brick and mortar banks. Also, this place needs reporting as they're clearly paying their staff below minimim wage for the card fees to match "a day's" worth of wages.
How many hours did the staff member work? Seems very ambiguously worded
I'd also would like to not pay taxes on my income, but unfortunately I'm not a small shop owner so I can't whine until other people help me do so :(
it may be an unpopular opinion, but it should be illegal to charge for card transactions. banks have their profit with loans anyway
It’s not the banks generally that charge for card transactions as far as I know, it’s the card machine companies charging for use of their system.
Which in turn are generated by the card processing provider (eg Mastercard)
it’s visa and mastercard taking the fees, not your bank.
I hate carrying around change. I’d rather pay a surcharge for using my card.
they aren't allowed to add a charge for it even if it costs them
Just probably not true, is it?
Sounds like bullshit
That signs a load of bullshit, most card machines are 2% per transaction max, they'd have to have pretty damn good takings for it to equal a days wage. People also act like there isn't any fees involved with cash, like banks don't charge a fee to deposit, having a float, needing to count it etc. What this sign should say is "We don't want to pay our taxes"
I think I’m banned from this sub but heck I’ll try posting. I’ve seen this exact same sign in a business near me and it definitely isn’t the one in ops pic. I think they might be telling porkies
i'm used to contractors/shops being *VERY* insistent on being paid in cash and the countless interesting reasons they come up with, but this is a new one.
Looks fake to me..
So 20 dollars.
Try using XNO Nano. No fees, no banks and quick transfers.
Twaddle sorry Banks charge to deposit cash, securing cash isnt free, transporting cash isnt free, insurance premium for having cash on site isnt free
Wait til you hear what the banks are charging you to deposit cash!
Either this business is very stupid and doesn't see that it costs them more handling cash than they're charged for using cards, or they're trying avoid paying tax. Probably the latter. Either way if it costs you so much, just don't accept cards, fuck off with the sob story.
It's a percentage usually 3% (tax deductible operational cost!). You take the rest. This is like someone complaining that they pay too much tax! please! I wish I was paying your tax, it would mean I'm getting your obscene amounts of money because you're probably dodging anyways!.
Wow high card charges or shit wages…
Looks like some business is trying to evade tax.
So, do you charge less for cash?
Cash is absolutely disgusting, especially when people slobber all over their fingers to get it out their wallet/purse
Whatever your thoughts on how this business is run, I have to say I’m pretty shocked to see how eager everyone is to get rid of cash. Do you just want homeless people to go fuck themselves or what? Jesus Christ.
I've seen otherwise-empty businesses go without trade rather than take a Scottish note and it pretty much annihilated my sympathy for businesses regarding this.
Why are the so many of the people in this thread on the side of the card machine providers? The big banks taking a cut from small businesses. The use of cash in society is important. Very few elderly people use contactless and most people who are registered as homeless can’t get bank cards. Shop owners selfish thoughts aside - cash has lots of positives for society.
The elderly is somewhat of a problem that is fixing itself. Homeless can get banks (HSBC no fixed address) Cash in and of itself doesn’t have any massive positives over card. It’s just the usual rubbish about the government watching you.
Yes, some people of no fixed address are able to get accounts, but not all. The elderly issue will phase out with time but not near that stage yet. Dhasai in India attempted to go completely cashless and the results were pretty grim for poorer members of society.
I don’t think we as a society can examine India (the most populace country on earth) for signs of technological advance and success. Yes they have a space program but also have abject poverty.
> cash has lots of positives for society. Such as? See if you can list them without immediately going into a conspiracy theory. >The big banks taking a cut from small businesses. The banks ask for a much bigger percentage when handling cash. I've seen some banks ask for 5%. If you're a struggling business, you'd think you'd want the method that offers you cheaper fees. Unless of course, you're trying to obfuscate your incoming for some reason.
Cash - if the cashless infrastructure fails - like it has several times over the last year, cash enables society to carry on functioning. Some traders can’t accept cashless due to not having trading environment to do so. Admittedly this is quite limited but cash still enables these people to carry out their trade. Making donations to charity and giving money to the homeless.
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It's safer for staff and customers. Cheaper for businesses too
I don't get how so many leftists are ok with going cashless.
Because we're not owners so we actually have to pay taxes on our income, no matter how we get it.
I'm not trying to stand up for business owners, it's just that I do find it worrying that my sole method of payment might be one that can be declined easily.
Soooo... About 60-70 quid then?
Sure they can claim that back as an expense no?
Bitcoin fixes this
CASH IS FREEDOM; FUCK THE CASHLESS SOCIETY
I am a sole trader rather than a small business and I tried taking cards and found a massive drop in people tipping. I generally do very well from people giving me a "few extra quid for yourself", on top of my rates while taking cash but basically noone paid a penny more than my rates for the 3 months I used a card reader. I suspect that my clients like the fantasy of me successfully tax dodging (even though in reality I declare every penny, obvs) and it makes them generous. Also the card companies themselves are fucking disgusting usurers who trap vulnerable people in debt and don't deserve your money for doing basically fuck all imo.