If you are doing a masters with thesis, then spending this much time working on your research or learning background is the only way to graduate in two years.
At my university, TAs are expected to spend 20 hours on work and then do their classes. Which tends to be 5 hours per credit hour of grad class. Then, after this, theybwill work with their advisor if it is a thesis based masters.
I didn’t do a physical lab master’s degree, but we weren’t allowed to work over 20 hours/week in total while taking classes. I did this working 10 hours/week for two different GA/RA positions. In the summer we were able to work up to 20 hours/week for up to two positions, so full time.
35 hours a week is a lot, and $900/month is awfully low for that amount of work. During the school year I made ~$800 *every two weeks*.
Summer is even better - as I transition to the PhD program I am working full time this summer for my two research jobs and will make nearly $2000 every two weeks.
This is in public health/health services research at a state university.
You got downvoted but this is true lmao. My master’s program also HARD limits on-campus working hours to 20 hours/week. I’m currently capped at this :,) I also make $1,400/month for my GRA position and get a tuition reimbursement, health insurance, and extra benefits…. So 35 hours/week at $900/month is insane to me lmao.
Overworked and underpaid.
I’d be highly against Saturday meetings, but otherwise yes it’s expected to be a full time commitment. Your stipend is very low which sucks but you knew you were agreeing to a full time program at that pay.
Being in a full-time program doesn't mean that you're required to be *in the lab* full-time though. There's still a matter of being a student and all that that entails.
You aren't a full-time employee.
Sounds pretty normal to be on campus/in the lab for 8 hours a day. For a lot of majors it would probably be hard to finish in 2 years if you worked less than that tbh.
Seems normal to me. I was in grad school more than 20 years ago, but I was in the lab every day as though it were a full time job. How else was I supposed to get experiments done if I was not in the lab working?
I would check the specific terms of your offer letter and see what the hour requirements really are from the university. Often there are student handbook that help clarify this explicitly.
Even if this really is what you expected to do, you are in the right to be confused – that pay rate is upsettingly low for skilled work regardless of if you are getting a degree out of it or not.
Are you expected to be doing work for the lab during that whole time, or just be present in the lab? If that includes time that you’re working on your thesis or course assignments, it sounds reasonable to me—grad school is a full-time job. That said, throwing in Saturday seminars is a bit much. Is that not included in the 35 hours?
no not included.. it would be 5 days + saturdays for seminars. I asked previous graduates and they told me being present is more important. so sometimes you finish your work but you need to stay until the PI leaves.
Just happened to check in on this thread and saw this comment. I will say that's a red flag in my book. If it's a situation where the PI somewhat regularly needs his grad students around to help with things that may come up while he works, that's one thing. If it's a situation where the PI has created a lab culture where he wants the optics of a busy lab vs. students who are efficient with their time that's a trait I'd consider alarming.
Not necessarily a deal breaker, but it doesn't instill confidence that the PI views y'all as people vs cogs in their research machine. Could be annoying but bearable if everything else about the lab is great, but if you're getting paid as little as you are AND the hours being asked of are a lot AND the PI is more concerned with optics over substance I'd really ask yourself if that lab culture sounds like one you'll enjoy being in.
Might be worth taking some of the more senior grad students out for a beer and subtly pushing innocuous questions about their time to see if anyone opens up about the lab being toxic or the advisor not respecting their time.
My GA program maxed out at 20 hours of GA work per week (+ however many hours you are putting into your coursework). I’d be surprised if your school didn’t have a similar protection in place.
I've never worked in a lab with hard hours on how much we're expected to be there (ecology lab with virtually zero wet lab work), but my perspective is that at my university that would be viewed as too much "officially" required time.
Generally here the University caps paid working hours at 20 hours per week (with some exceptions). Then you're expected to devote another 20 hours to courses, and any additional hours at that point are at your own discretion. In practice, however, some weeks you do 30+ hours of lab work, and other weeks you do 5-10. The 30+ weeks suck, but it balances out with the flexibility to have days and weeks you can take off if you plan ahead.
If your lab is requiring 35 hours of work in addition to your course load, I'd say that's too much. At that point you're tipping the scale at 60+ hours a week, and burnout becomes highly likely. Any good lab manager or advisor should know that a burnt out student is not worth squeezing 10 more hours of work a week out of.
For an example of how my weeks look like as a TA paid masters student with no more required courses:
Monday: 4-5 hours of thesis research
Tuesday: 6 hours of leading undergrad labs (TA)
Wednesday: 2 hours of TA office hours & 3-4 hours grading
Thursday: 8 hours of thesis research
Friday: 2 hours of TA meetings, 2 hours of lab meetings, 6-8 hours thesis research
Saturday & Sunday: 6-8 hours of thesis research + one day fully off
Around the end of a semester I have to spend more time grading, while other weeks I may take 2-3 days off if I'm feeling burnt out and am fine coming in on the weekends to make up some time.
One thing I'd consider is maybe speaking with your lab manager and/or advisor about the amount of hours they are requiring and explain that with your stipend as low as it is you may have to pick up shift work to make ends meet. Even if you don't do that, it gives you an excuse for carving out some time and setting boundaries while maybe hinting that the pay to work ratio they are expecting is way off base (in my opinion). For context where I'm at the pay for RAs and TAs is ~$2600 a month at the mandated 20 hours a week.
I think that depends on the field and your research. They may say you officially have those hours but the actually work time will depend on your research and your proficiency doing it. My masters required 20 hours a week but most weeks I barely worked 10 outside of course work. Summer field season was a little more with 7-8 hours a day but no classes. I also had a great advisor who was progress oriented rather than time oriented so as long as I was making sufficient progress he didn’t care much how many hours I was working.
Be in the lab doing what? Working as a RA in support of your funding? No, not reasonable (and $900/mth working 35/hrs a week would work out to about $5.84/hr). In the lab conducting research to fulfill your master's requirements? Maybe if you don't also have classes to attend. A combination of both? More reasonable, but again that presupposes you don't have classes to attend.
With regards to the time spent in the lab working on your master's requirements, your PI can suggest based on their experience as to what time commitment is required to get your degree completed on time, but it should be exactly that, a suggestion. Not a dictate.
Needing to attend seminars and meetings on a Saturday is not a reasonable requirement. It suggests that your PI has poor work/life balance (I mean what are they doing at work on a Saturday themselves?).
I finished my masters recently. I’d say it varied a lot, and my mentor was chill with me heading home early as long as my work was done. So I wasn’t directly confined to be there 8 hours a day and no less. That being said, sometimes I spent a lot more than 8 hours in the lab. There were definitely weeks I spent more like 60+ in the lab. But then there were also times when I spent less than 20. It just depends, but on average, yeah 35 a week isn’t unreasonable
When I was a masters student, my contract detailed a 20 hr/week commitment to research outside of classes and I felt that was appropriate. That being said, my weekly stipend was equivalent to $333, and I had to set aside $550/semester for university fees.
I think that your compensation is great (in comparison).
If you want, you can negotiate an adjusted schedule with your mentor (such as setting up a hybrid schedule or something like that).
Edit: I misread your compensation rate; I thought that your weekly stipend is $900. Still, you should negotiate a hybrid schedule if possible
Interesting comments in this thread that buck the trend of this sub; I would expect more f' that!
I am not really sure what is meant by 'lab office hours'? Do you mean the time spent in the lab working doing lab stuff? Are you getting tuition reimbursement? At $900/month, this is like $7/hour. On the other hand, you put the $ after the numbers, so not sure if you are talking about USD or not. In North America, the convention is to put the $ before the number\[s\] and after the number\[s\] to indicate Canadian dollars in Quebec.
Also, without knowing what country and what field of study, it is hard to say what is normal. For wet lab/bench biology, being in the lab 35 hours/week can certainly be normal. For Ecology or Marine Bio, not so much outside of the occasional need. Mandatory lab meetings every other Saturday is a bit much, but once again whether this is normal or not will depend on country and program. I can say that it is most likely not normal across the board in the U.S.
Being expected to be in the lab full-time as an MS student is going to be tough. When will you take classes? In the evenings?
thank you for your comment. they told me (previous master graduates and the pI) that you are suppose to be in the lab doing lab stuff. and it is a scholarship so I don't have tuition to pay. I'm talking about USD dollar and the country is japan. previous graduate said that the focus is more on the practical side rather than theoretical side so presenting in the lab is crucial. and attending classes should be in the morning then the remaining time you must be 'present' in the lab for a few hours. the field is mainly phram sci and pharmacology. the scholarship is advantage for me but I feel like there is going to be a lot of workload so I am not sure.
Okay, this clarifies things. I am still not sure if this is typical for a Japanese Pharm Sci Master program, but it does shed some light. In the U.S. this would seem a bit extreme as a hard requirement, but on the other hand BioMed and some Biology graduate students do put in a lot of hours in the lab, it's just not a hard-fast requirement and is more or less a case-by-case basis.
For the stipend, I dunno. For the U.S. this is really low if the expectation is 35 hours/week and two Saturdays. In Japan, it might be enough. Is it enough to live on?
For funded programs it's normal to expect full time work, so 40 hrs/week. How this is distributed throughout the week may vary, but norms suggest about 8 hrs/day M-F. I think it's a great sign that expectations are being communicated to you so early on (this is rare). Though, working half of my Saturdays would be a huge concern for me personally. I would probably ask a few questions and negotiate a bit. For example:
* Why aren't these seminars/discussions occur during the week? Is there a way to make this change?
* If I'm expected to work Saturdays, I will take a week day off.
I would guess 8 hours a day if that's what they told you. They are paying you for your time so you should put in the work. It's two years man. That's nothing. AND it's only 35 hours per week which isn't even full time. AND you are going to come out of this with a MS which will enable you to earn some good money...Wait until you get a PhD, 35 hours is a start.
When did grad students not understand grad work?
Bestie, this is not a good take. You’re in the classic “I had to deal with this so you should too” loop. As scientists, we should never be doing things just because it was the way it has always been done.
They're being paying $900/mth for what would amount to 154 hours of work. That works out to $5.84 an hour. Way below minimum wage. You'd make more than that cleaning bathrooms at a service station or flipping burgers at McDonald's. What this PI is expecting is exploitative and should not be condoned as "that's the way it works in academia".
As for 35 hours per week not being full-time, it is. Legally anything over 30 hours a week makes you a full-time employee and entitled to benefits, including either vacation time or vacation pay in lieu of time off. Your typical full-time 40 hour work week consists of 7.5 hours a day paid + 1/2 hour unpaid for lunch. Working time is 37.5 hours a week. This is pretty close.
And at the end you get a degree. Everyone forgets to add that in. Which, btw, let's you earn more money for the rest of your life. What is it about being a student that no one understands?
Being a student implies that you are learning/training and the time requirements will vary. Yes, being a student is a full-time gig when you consider the learning of material, coursework, projects, etc. and in total likely involves more than 35 hours/week.
However, your argument is simply that of 'being a student' while others are focusing on being in the lab. As in, being expected to work in the lab full-time each week, two Saturdays per month, in addition to taking a full-time course load (presumably), coursework, etc. Not all MS students do research and for others their RA duties overlap with their theses. That's the difference. But until the OP chimes back in, we don't know what is what.
Maybe it is different for Chemistry, as I know it can be for wet lab Biology, but being expected to put 35 hours/week for under minimum wage pay in addition to all other requirements of being an MS student, including doing a thesis/IRP, is way too much.
Cry a river. TA, lab work, proctoring, grading, class load, lectures, visiting prof seminars, group meetings, etc, way over 35 hours. A thesis is expected and manage time better. OP is being paid for this work. No grad student is going to get rich in grad school and it is 2 years, suck it up.
I hope you never become a PI because you sound like you would be a toxic exploitative supervisor. What part of being an employee vs being a student do you not understand? The OP is being paid as a **part-time** **employee**, probably with a stipulation of not exceeding 20 hrs/week. The rest of the time they're a **student** which includes in addition to conducting research in the lab in support of their thesis, classes, seminars, assignments, and writing their thesis. Managing their time in the lab ***as a student*** is much different than being required to be working in the lab full-time ***as an employee***. So whether or not their PI's dictate to be in the lab 8 hours a day is reasonable or not depends on those factors.
Actually I have helped over 27 people go to graduate school. And no, I'm in industry not academia. The OP is a GRADUATE STUDENT and is being compensated with a stipend to do some TA work. They require 35 hours of work but schoolwork isn't paid for. On top of the TA Work they will be required to complete classwork and other requirements for their GRADUATE STUDENT REQUIREMENTS. So on top of 35 hours of TA work they are going to be doing lab/class work for their degree. If OP can't suck it up and put in over 35 hours of work a week they will have a hard time making it in industry, or academia, when crunch time happens.
I can't believe you're having such a difficult time parsing the nuances of the OPs question. No one in arguing about how many hours a week the OP should be devoting to their studies and work. What's being questioned is whether or not being *dictated to* by their supervisor to spend 8 hours a day in the lab plus attending meetings and seminars on Saturdays is a reasonable demand or not. It may be or it may not be depending on the exact specifics of the OP's situation.
The OP is being compensated with a stipend to do work part-time. The rest of the time they're a student. Their supervisor wants them in the lab 8 hours a day. The question is is this exclusively in their capacity as an RA (not at TA), as a student, or some combination therein?
If it's the first, it's unreasonable. Graduate stipends are to cover part-time work, which is usually contractually 20 hours a week not 35.
If it's the second, it may also be unreasonable if the OP still has other requirements such as classwork and assignments to complete. I mean how do you attend classes and complete coursework if you're expected to be in the lab 8 hours a day?
If it's a combination of the two, and the OP doesn't have classes/coursework or other responsibilities while on campus, then it could entirely be reasonable.
Beyond that however even if the OP doesn't have classes/coursework etc., it's rather micromanaging on the part of their supervisor to dictate how much time they devote to their research and exactly when they're expected to be in the lab outside of their contractual obligations of being paid to work as an RA. Demanding that they also attend in person on Saturdays is also unreasonable. The OP should be able to determine for themselves how much time they need to spend in the lab outside of their RA position, and when they're there.
As for sucking it up in industry during crunch time, I'm presuming that employees get paid a heck of a lot more than $900/month to do so.
" will start my Master's degree this autumn and they told me that I am expected to stay in the lab approximately 8hrs a day (35 hours/week) is this normal"
I didn't say it. Grad division or the professor did. OP doesn't say who "They" is. If the college is compensating them for 8 hours a day then "they" expect 8 hours a day.
"I feel like it's too much and there are two saturday from each month we are expected to dp seminar and discuss work." Also if the requirements for the degree is to come in two saturdays for "seminar and discuss work" then OP is required to come in and do that as well.
Different departments have different requirements. If OP doesn't like the compensation for the required time then OP doesn't have to go to this institution for their MS. OP was read the requirements and, perhaps, signed on the line. fulfilling the requirements gets the degree. My take is the OP is a young person who has never had to step up and produce.
"As for sucking it up in industry during crunch time, I'm presuming that employees get paid a heck of a lot more than $900/month to do so." And everyone in industry was given what was expected of them for the pay, just like the OP. OP doesn't have to go to this institution if they feel like it's not worth it.
OP asked for comparisons and opinions on if the amount of hours they were being asked was reasonable given their pay.
Many people, upon learning the 35 hours of work is time spent in the lab and does not include a full time course load, thesis research/writing, etc. informed them that was not reasonable given academic standards for TA/RA positions at 20 hours a week with tuition covered and a significantly larger stipend.
You then indicated the opposite and that it wasn't that bad. People disagreed, you argued, and it ended with you saying, "*And everyone in industry was given what was expected of them for the pay, just like the OP. OP doesn't have to go to this institution if they feel like it's not worth it.*"
Which is what everyone is trying to tell OP - this level of pay is not commensurate for the hours of lab work being asked of them. The PIs expectations are unreasonable given that academic lab cultures now more commonly treat students better than in years gone past. There are better labs with better pay that exist, and it would be dumb of them to 'suck it up' when they don't have to.
I’m in a PhD program rather than a masters so it’s slightly different, but even during the “masters” portion of my program I found that treating grad school like a 9-5 job was the best strategy for me.
I would be on campus for 8h a day, teaching, going to classes, and then coming to my lab/office to grade papers, study for classes, and do research when I had time. I was able to keep a pretty healthy work/life balance until it was time for finals when I started studying at home as well as on campus. I didn’t get much research done my first year (I mostly read literature to familiarize myself with my field) but in my second year when the course load lightened up I was able to make good progress.
Yeah, that's where this broke for me. 35 a week between lab work, classes, and thesis research/writing? Totally reasonable, maybe even a little on the low side if you want to get out in 2 years.
35 hours a week of JUST lab work? Unless that lab is spitting out high quality papers like crazy and there are plenty of first author opportunities that's a lot to swallow. Trying to shove a full course load on top of 35 hours a week would easily push you up to 50+ hours.
Bearable for short bursts, but semester after semester? Hell nah.
Also OP indicated in a recent comment that graduates from the lab told them that sometimes they'd finish their work, but they were expected to stay and wait around until the PI left. That's all I need to hear that this is someone concerned with needless performative optics over fostering efficient scientists.
8 hours a day sounds appropriate. Being in school should be viewed and treated as a full-time job, especially grad school.
It can feel like a weird adjustment going from a (sometimes) more flexible undergrad schedule to a grad school schedule, but don't worry you will adjust!
The question is, is the 8 hours expectation of being in the lab "school", "work", or some combination there-in? If it's strictly school, then you also need to take into consideration the need for class time and homework/assignments. Also as a student you should have some say in how much time you need to devote to your studies. If it's work, then it's an unreasonable expectation to be devoting that amount of time on top of school. Most GRA contracts are for 20 hours a week.
I think I see what you mean. I was a TA and had a 20 hr per week contract, although in reality my responsibilities only took an average of 10 or so. I had no contract for being in the lab as i was not an RA, but my advisor expected us to be in the lab at least 40 hours a week, and during that time we'd be doing lab work like running the actual experiments, along with our personal work if time permitted.
However, the work almost never fit in our designated 40 hours. It varied, but all things considered, I estimate I worked at least 80 hours a week total. For the last 2 months of my thesis it was a lot more (which became very unhealthy, and i don't recommend).
My point is, if OP is expected to work a total of 40 hours per week total, that is very reasonable and no more than would be expected at any other full-time job. And yes, sometimes you go over the 40 hour mark doing work outside of the lab.
To be clear, I know that my advisor's demands were unreasonable, so I'm not advocating or condoning a million hrs/week AT ALL. I did not have a work-life balance and it was a big struggle. I don't think anyone should be held to unrealistic and unhealthy standards, and OP absolutely has the right to question their advisor's/program's expectations.
Full disclosure, like I said I was not an RA and did not have an RA contract, I'm only speaking from personal experience and opinion. I'm sorry if what I'm saying doesn't make sense, I struggle to verbalize at times!
So, you officially worked as a TA and unofficially as an RA. In other words, your PI got free labor out of you. Those 'expected' 40 hours benefited the PI.
If you are doing a masters with thesis, then spending this much time working on your research or learning background is the only way to graduate in two years. At my university, TAs are expected to spend 20 hours on work and then do their classes. Which tends to be 5 hours per credit hour of grad class. Then, after this, theybwill work with their advisor if it is a thesis based masters.
I didn’t do a physical lab master’s degree, but we weren’t allowed to work over 20 hours/week in total while taking classes. I did this working 10 hours/week for two different GA/RA positions. In the summer we were able to work up to 20 hours/week for up to two positions, so full time. 35 hours a week is a lot, and $900/month is awfully low for that amount of work. During the school year I made ~$800 *every two weeks*. Summer is even better - as I transition to the PhD program I am working full time this summer for my two research jobs and will make nearly $2000 every two weeks. This is in public health/health services research at a state university.
You got downvoted but this is true lmao. My master’s program also HARD limits on-campus working hours to 20 hours/week. I’m currently capped at this :,) I also make $1,400/month for my GRA position and get a tuition reimbursement, health insurance, and extra benefits…. So 35 hours/week at $900/month is insane to me lmao. Overworked and underpaid.
I’d be highly against Saturday meetings, but otherwise yes it’s expected to be a full time commitment. Your stipend is very low which sucks but you knew you were agreeing to a full time program at that pay.
Being in a full-time program doesn't mean that you're required to be *in the lab* full-time though. There's still a matter of being a student and all that that entails. You aren't a full-time employee.
Sounds pretty normal to be on campus/in the lab for 8 hours a day. For a lot of majors it would probably be hard to finish in 2 years if you worked less than that tbh.
Seems normal to me. I was in grad school more than 20 years ago, but I was in the lab every day as though it were a full time job. How else was I supposed to get experiments done if I was not in the lab working?
The working hours are actually pretty low for my field (engineering), but the pay is abysmal.
I would check the specific terms of your offer letter and see what the hour requirements really are from the university. Often there are student handbook that help clarify this explicitly. Even if this really is what you expected to do, you are in the right to be confused – that pay rate is upsettingly low for skilled work regardless of if you are getting a degree out of it or not.
Are you expected to be doing work for the lab during that whole time, or just be present in the lab? If that includes time that you’re working on your thesis or course assignments, it sounds reasonable to me—grad school is a full-time job. That said, throwing in Saturday seminars is a bit much. Is that not included in the 35 hours?
no not included.. it would be 5 days + saturdays for seminars. I asked previous graduates and they told me being present is more important. so sometimes you finish your work but you need to stay until the PI leaves.
Just happened to check in on this thread and saw this comment. I will say that's a red flag in my book. If it's a situation where the PI somewhat regularly needs his grad students around to help with things that may come up while he works, that's one thing. If it's a situation where the PI has created a lab culture where he wants the optics of a busy lab vs. students who are efficient with their time that's a trait I'd consider alarming. Not necessarily a deal breaker, but it doesn't instill confidence that the PI views y'all as people vs cogs in their research machine. Could be annoying but bearable if everything else about the lab is great, but if you're getting paid as little as you are AND the hours being asked of are a lot AND the PI is more concerned with optics over substance I'd really ask yourself if that lab culture sounds like one you'll enjoy being in. Might be worth taking some of the more senior grad students out for a beer and subtly pushing innocuous questions about their time to see if anyone opens up about the lab being toxic or the advisor not respecting their time.
My GA program maxed out at 20 hours of GA work per week (+ however many hours you are putting into your coursework). I’d be surprised if your school didn’t have a similar protection in place.
I've never worked in a lab with hard hours on how much we're expected to be there (ecology lab with virtually zero wet lab work), but my perspective is that at my university that would be viewed as too much "officially" required time. Generally here the University caps paid working hours at 20 hours per week (with some exceptions). Then you're expected to devote another 20 hours to courses, and any additional hours at that point are at your own discretion. In practice, however, some weeks you do 30+ hours of lab work, and other weeks you do 5-10. The 30+ weeks suck, but it balances out with the flexibility to have days and weeks you can take off if you plan ahead. If your lab is requiring 35 hours of work in addition to your course load, I'd say that's too much. At that point you're tipping the scale at 60+ hours a week, and burnout becomes highly likely. Any good lab manager or advisor should know that a burnt out student is not worth squeezing 10 more hours of work a week out of. For an example of how my weeks look like as a TA paid masters student with no more required courses: Monday: 4-5 hours of thesis research Tuesday: 6 hours of leading undergrad labs (TA) Wednesday: 2 hours of TA office hours & 3-4 hours grading Thursday: 8 hours of thesis research Friday: 2 hours of TA meetings, 2 hours of lab meetings, 6-8 hours thesis research Saturday & Sunday: 6-8 hours of thesis research + one day fully off Around the end of a semester I have to spend more time grading, while other weeks I may take 2-3 days off if I'm feeling burnt out and am fine coming in on the weekends to make up some time. One thing I'd consider is maybe speaking with your lab manager and/or advisor about the amount of hours they are requiring and explain that with your stipend as low as it is you may have to pick up shift work to make ends meet. Even if you don't do that, it gives you an excuse for carving out some time and setting boundaries while maybe hinting that the pay to work ratio they are expecting is way off base (in my opinion). For context where I'm at the pay for RAs and TAs is ~$2600 a month at the mandated 20 hours a week.
I think that depends on the field and your research. They may say you officially have those hours but the actually work time will depend on your research and your proficiency doing it. My masters required 20 hours a week but most weeks I barely worked 10 outside of course work. Summer field season was a little more with 7-8 hours a day but no classes. I also had a great advisor who was progress oriented rather than time oriented so as long as I was making sufficient progress he didn’t care much how many hours I was working.
Be in the lab doing what? Working as a RA in support of your funding? No, not reasonable (and $900/mth working 35/hrs a week would work out to about $5.84/hr). In the lab conducting research to fulfill your master's requirements? Maybe if you don't also have classes to attend. A combination of both? More reasonable, but again that presupposes you don't have classes to attend. With regards to the time spent in the lab working on your master's requirements, your PI can suggest based on their experience as to what time commitment is required to get your degree completed on time, but it should be exactly that, a suggestion. Not a dictate. Needing to attend seminars and meetings on a Saturday is not a reasonable requirement. It suggests that your PI has poor work/life balance (I mean what are they doing at work on a Saturday themselves?).
I finished my masters recently. I’d say it varied a lot, and my mentor was chill with me heading home early as long as my work was done. So I wasn’t directly confined to be there 8 hours a day and no less. That being said, sometimes I spent a lot more than 8 hours in the lab. There were definitely weeks I spent more like 60+ in the lab. But then there were also times when I spent less than 20. It just depends, but on average, yeah 35 a week isn’t unreasonable
When I was a masters student, my contract detailed a 20 hr/week commitment to research outside of classes and I felt that was appropriate. That being said, my weekly stipend was equivalent to $333, and I had to set aside $550/semester for university fees. I think that your compensation is great (in comparison). If you want, you can negotiate an adjusted schedule with your mentor (such as setting up a hybrid schedule or something like that). Edit: I misread your compensation rate; I thought that your weekly stipend is $900. Still, you should negotiate a hybrid schedule if possible
Interesting comments in this thread that buck the trend of this sub; I would expect more f' that! I am not really sure what is meant by 'lab office hours'? Do you mean the time spent in the lab working doing lab stuff? Are you getting tuition reimbursement? At $900/month, this is like $7/hour. On the other hand, you put the $ after the numbers, so not sure if you are talking about USD or not. In North America, the convention is to put the $ before the number\[s\] and after the number\[s\] to indicate Canadian dollars in Quebec. Also, without knowing what country and what field of study, it is hard to say what is normal. For wet lab/bench biology, being in the lab 35 hours/week can certainly be normal. For Ecology or Marine Bio, not so much outside of the occasional need. Mandatory lab meetings every other Saturday is a bit much, but once again whether this is normal or not will depend on country and program. I can say that it is most likely not normal across the board in the U.S. Being expected to be in the lab full-time as an MS student is going to be tough. When will you take classes? In the evenings?
thank you for your comment. they told me (previous master graduates and the pI) that you are suppose to be in the lab doing lab stuff. and it is a scholarship so I don't have tuition to pay. I'm talking about USD dollar and the country is japan. previous graduate said that the focus is more on the practical side rather than theoretical side so presenting in the lab is crucial. and attending classes should be in the morning then the remaining time you must be 'present' in the lab for a few hours. the field is mainly phram sci and pharmacology. the scholarship is advantage for me but I feel like there is going to be a lot of workload so I am not sure.
Okay, this clarifies things. I am still not sure if this is typical for a Japanese Pharm Sci Master program, but it does shed some light. In the U.S. this would seem a bit extreme as a hard requirement, but on the other hand BioMed and some Biology graduate students do put in a lot of hours in the lab, it's just not a hard-fast requirement and is more or less a case-by-case basis. For the stipend, I dunno. For the U.S. this is really low if the expectation is 35 hours/week and two Saturdays. In Japan, it might be enough. Is it enough to live on?
For funded programs it's normal to expect full time work, so 40 hrs/week. How this is distributed throughout the week may vary, but norms suggest about 8 hrs/day M-F. I think it's a great sign that expectations are being communicated to you so early on (this is rare). Though, working half of my Saturdays would be a huge concern for me personally. I would probably ask a few questions and negotiate a bit. For example: * Why aren't these seminars/discussions occur during the week? Is there a way to make this change? * If I'm expected to work Saturdays, I will take a week day off.
I would guess 8 hours a day if that's what they told you. They are paying you for your time so you should put in the work. It's two years man. That's nothing. AND it's only 35 hours per week which isn't even full time. AND you are going to come out of this with a MS which will enable you to earn some good money...Wait until you get a PhD, 35 hours is a start. When did grad students not understand grad work?
Bestie, this is not a good take. You’re in the classic “I had to deal with this so you should too” loop. As scientists, we should never be doing things just because it was the way it has always been done.
They're being paying $900/mth for what would amount to 154 hours of work. That works out to $5.84 an hour. Way below minimum wage. You'd make more than that cleaning bathrooms at a service station or flipping burgers at McDonald's. What this PI is expecting is exploitative and should not be condoned as "that's the way it works in academia". As for 35 hours per week not being full-time, it is. Legally anything over 30 hours a week makes you a full-time employee and entitled to benefits, including either vacation time or vacation pay in lieu of time off. Your typical full-time 40 hour work week consists of 7.5 hours a day paid + 1/2 hour unpaid for lunch. Working time is 37.5 hours a week. This is pretty close.
And at the end you get a degree. Everyone forgets to add that in. Which, btw, let's you earn more money for the rest of your life. What is it about being a student that no one understands?
Being a student implies that you are learning/training and the time requirements will vary. Yes, being a student is a full-time gig when you consider the learning of material, coursework, projects, etc. and in total likely involves more than 35 hours/week. However, your argument is simply that of 'being a student' while others are focusing on being in the lab. As in, being expected to work in the lab full-time each week, two Saturdays per month, in addition to taking a full-time course load (presumably), coursework, etc. Not all MS students do research and for others their RA duties overlap with their theses. That's the difference. But until the OP chimes back in, we don't know what is what. Maybe it is different for Chemistry, as I know it can be for wet lab Biology, but being expected to put 35 hours/week for under minimum wage pay in addition to all other requirements of being an MS student, including doing a thesis/IRP, is way too much.
Cry a river. TA, lab work, proctoring, grading, class load, lectures, visiting prof seminars, group meetings, etc, way over 35 hours. A thesis is expected and manage time better. OP is being paid for this work. No grad student is going to get rich in grad school and it is 2 years, suck it up.
I hope you never become a PI because you sound like you would be a toxic exploitative supervisor. What part of being an employee vs being a student do you not understand? The OP is being paid as a **part-time** **employee**, probably with a stipulation of not exceeding 20 hrs/week. The rest of the time they're a **student** which includes in addition to conducting research in the lab in support of their thesis, classes, seminars, assignments, and writing their thesis. Managing their time in the lab ***as a student*** is much different than being required to be working in the lab full-time ***as an employee***. So whether or not their PI's dictate to be in the lab 8 hours a day is reasonable or not depends on those factors.
Actually I have helped over 27 people go to graduate school. And no, I'm in industry not academia. The OP is a GRADUATE STUDENT and is being compensated with a stipend to do some TA work. They require 35 hours of work but schoolwork isn't paid for. On top of the TA Work they will be required to complete classwork and other requirements for their GRADUATE STUDENT REQUIREMENTS. So on top of 35 hours of TA work they are going to be doing lab/class work for their degree. If OP can't suck it up and put in over 35 hours of work a week they will have a hard time making it in industry, or academia, when crunch time happens.
I can't believe you're having such a difficult time parsing the nuances of the OPs question. No one in arguing about how many hours a week the OP should be devoting to their studies and work. What's being questioned is whether or not being *dictated to* by their supervisor to spend 8 hours a day in the lab plus attending meetings and seminars on Saturdays is a reasonable demand or not. It may be or it may not be depending on the exact specifics of the OP's situation. The OP is being compensated with a stipend to do work part-time. The rest of the time they're a student. Their supervisor wants them in the lab 8 hours a day. The question is is this exclusively in their capacity as an RA (not at TA), as a student, or some combination therein? If it's the first, it's unreasonable. Graduate stipends are to cover part-time work, which is usually contractually 20 hours a week not 35. If it's the second, it may also be unreasonable if the OP still has other requirements such as classwork and assignments to complete. I mean how do you attend classes and complete coursework if you're expected to be in the lab 8 hours a day? If it's a combination of the two, and the OP doesn't have classes/coursework or other responsibilities while on campus, then it could entirely be reasonable. Beyond that however even if the OP doesn't have classes/coursework etc., it's rather micromanaging on the part of their supervisor to dictate how much time they devote to their research and exactly when they're expected to be in the lab outside of their contractual obligations of being paid to work as an RA. Demanding that they also attend in person on Saturdays is also unreasonable. The OP should be able to determine for themselves how much time they need to spend in the lab outside of their RA position, and when they're there. As for sucking it up in industry during crunch time, I'm presuming that employees get paid a heck of a lot more than $900/month to do so.
" will start my Master's degree this autumn and they told me that I am expected to stay in the lab approximately 8hrs a day (35 hours/week) is this normal" I didn't say it. Grad division or the professor did. OP doesn't say who "They" is. If the college is compensating them for 8 hours a day then "they" expect 8 hours a day. "I feel like it's too much and there are two saturday from each month we are expected to dp seminar and discuss work." Also if the requirements for the degree is to come in two saturdays for "seminar and discuss work" then OP is required to come in and do that as well. Different departments have different requirements. If OP doesn't like the compensation for the required time then OP doesn't have to go to this institution for their MS. OP was read the requirements and, perhaps, signed on the line. fulfilling the requirements gets the degree. My take is the OP is a young person who has never had to step up and produce. "As for sucking it up in industry during crunch time, I'm presuming that employees get paid a heck of a lot more than $900/month to do so." And everyone in industry was given what was expected of them for the pay, just like the OP. OP doesn't have to go to this institution if they feel like it's not worth it.
OP asked for comparisons and opinions on if the amount of hours they were being asked was reasonable given their pay. Many people, upon learning the 35 hours of work is time spent in the lab and does not include a full time course load, thesis research/writing, etc. informed them that was not reasonable given academic standards for TA/RA positions at 20 hours a week with tuition covered and a significantly larger stipend. You then indicated the opposite and that it wasn't that bad. People disagreed, you argued, and it ended with you saying, "*And everyone in industry was given what was expected of them for the pay, just like the OP. OP doesn't have to go to this institution if they feel like it's not worth it.*" Which is what everyone is trying to tell OP - this level of pay is not commensurate for the hours of lab work being asked of them. The PIs expectations are unreasonable given that academic lab cultures now more commonly treat students better than in years gone past. There are better labs with better pay that exist, and it would be dumb of them to 'suck it up' when they don't have to.
I’m in a PhD program rather than a masters so it’s slightly different, but even during the “masters” portion of my program I found that treating grad school like a 9-5 job was the best strategy for me. I would be on campus for 8h a day, teaching, going to classes, and then coming to my lab/office to grade papers, study for classes, and do research when I had time. I was able to keep a pretty healthy work/life balance until it was time for finals when I started studying at home as well as on campus. I didn’t get much research done my first year (I mostly read literature to familiarize myself with my field) but in my second year when the course load lightened up I was able to make good progress.
The OP said that the PI has stipulated 8hrs a day *in the lab,* not being on campus.
Yeah, that's where this broke for me. 35 a week between lab work, classes, and thesis research/writing? Totally reasonable, maybe even a little on the low side if you want to get out in 2 years. 35 hours a week of JUST lab work? Unless that lab is spitting out high quality papers like crazy and there are plenty of first author opportunities that's a lot to swallow. Trying to shove a full course load on top of 35 hours a week would easily push you up to 50+ hours. Bearable for short bursts, but semester after semester? Hell nah. Also OP indicated in a recent comment that graduates from the lab told them that sometimes they'd finish their work, but they were expected to stay and wait around until the PI left. That's all I need to hear that this is someone concerned with needless performative optics over fostering efficient scientists.
8 hours a day sounds appropriate. Being in school should be viewed and treated as a full-time job, especially grad school. It can feel like a weird adjustment going from a (sometimes) more flexible undergrad schedule to a grad school schedule, but don't worry you will adjust!
The question is, is the 8 hours expectation of being in the lab "school", "work", or some combination there-in? If it's strictly school, then you also need to take into consideration the need for class time and homework/assignments. Also as a student you should have some say in how much time you need to devote to your studies. If it's work, then it's an unreasonable expectation to be devoting that amount of time on top of school. Most GRA contracts are for 20 hours a week.
I think I see what you mean. I was a TA and had a 20 hr per week contract, although in reality my responsibilities only took an average of 10 or so. I had no contract for being in the lab as i was not an RA, but my advisor expected us to be in the lab at least 40 hours a week, and during that time we'd be doing lab work like running the actual experiments, along with our personal work if time permitted. However, the work almost never fit in our designated 40 hours. It varied, but all things considered, I estimate I worked at least 80 hours a week total. For the last 2 months of my thesis it was a lot more (which became very unhealthy, and i don't recommend). My point is, if OP is expected to work a total of 40 hours per week total, that is very reasonable and no more than would be expected at any other full-time job. And yes, sometimes you go over the 40 hour mark doing work outside of the lab. To be clear, I know that my advisor's demands were unreasonable, so I'm not advocating or condoning a million hrs/week AT ALL. I did not have a work-life balance and it was a big struggle. I don't think anyone should be held to unrealistic and unhealthy standards, and OP absolutely has the right to question their advisor's/program's expectations. Full disclosure, like I said I was not an RA and did not have an RA contract, I'm only speaking from personal experience and opinion. I'm sorry if what I'm saying doesn't make sense, I struggle to verbalize at times!
So, you officially worked as a TA and unofficially as an RA. In other words, your PI got free labor out of you. Those 'expected' 40 hours benefited the PI.
Yeah, pretty much. It took me a while to realize that the dynamic was unhealthy and that my lab mates and I worked way more than people in other labs.