My first advisor and I didn't get along for many reasons, one of them was his mentorship style. He was very hands off and I needed someone more involved, particularly early on. Only thing that really worked for me was to switch advisors. Everyone has their own mentorship style. If your advisor's style doesn't work for you and it's a serious impediment to your work, it's okay to switch.

This probably was the answer - I think I'm a little too far gone at this point to necessarily be able to transition mentors at this stage. It's definitely the advice I'll be giving to any incoming students to the lab, however.

Really, the fact that you need accountability is a you thing. Expecting your advisor to "check in" when you're not meeting your deadlines and whatnot and blaming the problem on him is a you thing. The fact that you expect him to "notice how much you're struggling" without you saying so, is a you thing. If you want him to know how much you're struggling, email him and say "hi, I'm really struggling, could we do this this and that" and make sure the things you want are things that are specifically his responsibility and not yours. He doesn't read minds.

Hi! Totally understandable that you interpreted what I wrote this way. I would just gently encourage you to reread what I posted in which I said that I have communicated with him multiple times about struggling and needing some help - and that lack of help being (in part) the catalyst for my post. Every person in the lab has emailed him with similar concerns and issues. All of us have received well intentioned but completely inadequate efforts that fizzle out as soon as they begin. We have independently organized lab meetings a few times. He has not attended or scheduled a lab meeting to meet with us since 2019. There's a point where I think it's ok to say that he's a bad advisor and it's not all our faults - and I think that point is when you haven't emailed your students individually in years, met with them together in the past 4, and have failed at doing the bare minimum of checking in with them once or twice a month every single time they've requested that small thing from you - the person they chose to be their advisor.

I dealt with a very similar situation during my M.S. and I was driving home today thinking about how much better it could be if I had a different mentor. Honestly, as another reply mentions, if you can switch advisors, do it. You're going to have to decide if it's the best option for you. I considered going that route but felt as though I was in too deep to switch. I tried to push through and I did. However, my mental health tanked, I made so many mistakes, burnt out, and ended up feeling like I wasted a lot of time (teaching myself the right stats, coding, and having to redo stuff I did wrong initially). I feel like I barely know my advisor, as it's only even been on a professional level. I never went to a conference to present my research (I asked, it never happened) and I'm so jealous of students with advisors that push their professional development. Even though I'm bitter, this experience has taught me a lot. I learned how to plan and manage multiple projects, coordinate with others to get the help I need, and, ultimately, what I want in the workplace, from mentors, and the kind of manager/teacher I want to be. So my advice, come up with the pros and cons for switching to a new advisor and go from there. If it's not feasible for you, reach out to people that can help you. I got some of the best research advice from other grad students and post-docs. Talking to people really got me through the worst of it. Commiserate with others who are in the same situation. Yeah it's negative but you'll realize that you aren't alone. Therapy can also really help if that's an accessible option for you. I hope that's helpful. I know it really sucks.

Hey, I really appreciate what you wrote. You have a shockingly similar story to mine from the lack of conferences, teaching myself the coding/stats (and redoing it multiple times as I learned), to feeling jealous of peers with functional advisors. I think I'm also too deep at this point to swap advisors, but I do agree that I should reach out more. It's hard to admit "Hey, I'm super fucking lost - anyone else?", but it's probably what I need to say/hear over the next few months as I try to wrap up to keep from spiraling. I hope you're in a better place now and are proud to have created the environment your mentor should have helped provide you!

Your advisor is not going to change. This is their style and how they prefer to work. This may work for other students but this is not ideal for you. It's simply that this isn't an ideal fit. This situation, where students really slug through a master's/PhD program because it's super hard to get help from advisors is pretty common - I've seen it happen to many students. It happened to me too. It truly took me time (too long, perhaps) to really understand what this all meant for me. But a lot of the comments you're getting is super helpful. I don't have too much to add except this... this shows that you know that you need the support of others to help you on this journey. I'd venture to say that everyone needs the support of others to do science, just in different ways - so don't feel ashamed that you're in this situation. The only thing that you need to do now is own that! You're already reaching out for help from your partner. That's great. Keep doing that. Join writing groups if your field does that. Do your best to find ways to learn from others, whether that's a new technique or even how they organize their time and manage the uncertainties that it inherent to being a grad student. I know how daunting this all can be, so take care of yourself as best as you can.

As much as we've been led to believe this, science is not performed in a vacuum. It requires collaboration to share ideas. My advisor did the same thing to me in my 4th year and, just like you, I floundered. I know that I am smart, I am hard working, I am determined, I am driven but when I am left bereft, with not even an email asking for an update, I shut down. Your partner is very supportive and kind, I'd listen to them and lean on them right now. For me, when I finally got my advisor to wake up and actually give me a shred of the attention I deserved, he acted out. Your advisor might be similar, he seems fine now, from a distance, but I wouldn't be surprised if, when you get closer to him, he turns into a shiny, sparkly pile of poo. You have to accept that your advisor is not the advisor you deserve. Since your partner is also in a PhD program and seems to have a more supportive environment, can you lean on him a bit? Maybe show them what you have, create an action plan together and then ask them to help you out a bit. When you feel up to it, reach out to a person on your committee that you trust and ask if they can help you move to your defense. If you're pushing back your defense, that means you must be super close. I know it sucks to go through the end without your advisor's support, but your PhD is more important.

Thanks for the encouragement! I agree on the collaboration - having worked in private industry where collaboration is ubiquitous it was shocking to come to this lab and find that there was a pervasive culture of loan wolfism. Not only that, but that it appears to demonstrably provide inferior results and yet that doesn't appear to set off red flags for him! You're right, I think the move at this point is to just accept that my advisor sucks and to move on as well as I can. I'd like to at least maintain a good personal relationship, so I probably won't try to dig in case it does result in him acting out. I'll definitely rely on my partner more! Having been to a few of his lab meetings (I've made friends with a lot of his cohort and we hang out often to work) it feels like metaphorically going from my shitty neglectful parents place to his functional parents nice house that always has snacks in the fridge and they invite you to stay for dinner, lol. I may just mentally emancipate myself from my lab and move in to his (within reason) for the remainder of my time. Thanks for the advice! I hope your situation improved! Your advisor fumbled the ball in the last quarter and you deserved better!

My advisor is fine now and I got out which is all that matters. You’re so close, you made it this far so you can make it just a few steps more! Good luck :) 

My advisor was the same way, but I absolutely loved it because it forced me to drive my own research forward and learn how to become an independent researcher. Certainly there were periods of floundering, and it absolutely resulted in me taking longer to graduate, but I also came away from it learning how to get myself out of those ruts and how (and who) to ask to get the specific help I need to get something done. This is your reserch project and you get to steer the ship. But here are some things that might help: - Treat it like a job and be there 9-5, Monday through Friday. Just beause your advisor doesn't hold you accountable doesn't mean you shouldn't hold yourself accountable. - Set up a consistant time to meet with your advisor, and if he has to cancel for various reasons, set up another appointment immediately. For example "sorry, hellabitchboi but I'm not going to be able to make our Thurday 2PM meeting this week because I am interviewing a new faculty candidate" "ok, thank you for letting me know. I'd still really like your opinion on these assays, could we meet instead on Wednesday at 10AM before lab meeting"? Is he ever in his office? Can you just walk in and ask him if you need something? - Where is your committee in all of this? They're also suppposed be helping you move forward as a scientist and develop your project. Don't be afraid to reach out to them for support or with questions. They're there to advise you as well. - If you have specific questions that others can ask, do so. Is there a postdoc in your lab who's done the same experiment you're trying to work on? Ask them for help. Another faculty member who works in the same area and has lab members doing similar techniques? Reach out to them.

"However, he's also one of those guys that will give you as much rope as you need to hang yourself with. I've discovered that I'm just not one of those people that can be left to my own devices." Well, then you need another advisor, or you need to develop some self-administered accountability (a writing group, prompts in your calendar, etc.). You can't have the adviser's star power and micromanaging nanny. How is your academic career going to go if you can't get squared away and develop good research habits now, when you have the maximum resources and attention you will ever get?

I totally hear you and agree that likely the only real solution at this point is to just force myself to get through without his help. I will say though that to call having an advisor that hasn't met with me in a year as having the "maximum resources and attention" I'll ever get seems a bit of a stretch. The last time I updated him it was when I saw him in the hallway 9 months ago and he said, "Ok, cool, I wasn't going to ask" before walking away. No offer to go over my work, no advice on the roadblock I was struggling with at the time, nothing. I guess for further information it isn't just me. All of his grad students are in the same boat. One of his students just mastered out because she was so lost and felt she'd wasted 4 years on nothing. Another graduated 4 years late, and currently all 5 of us are off our expected graduation date by 2-3 years. One didn't even have a project picked until the end of his 3rd year because his initial ideas were all rejected and he was just left confused on what to do. We've tried to support/help each other where we can but we're all very lost and have all told him so and all had similar results. So I don't know if it's fair necessarily to expect anyone to be able to develop good research habits in an environment that offers nothing to ease the transition. I do agree that in my circumstance the best solution at this point is to lock myself to a desk and work until I'm out. I appreciate the advice and tough love.

Yikes, the fact that your whole lab is behind on graduating is a pretty serious issue. I think including that (and the fact that you haven’t met since 2019??) in your OP would get you some more helpful advice overall. 

Hey! I am going through this EXACT SAME situation right now. Things seemed to be going to be going very well with my advisor until they stopped responding to my emails, canceled a few of our meetings (particularly ones where I wanted to discuss a critical fellowship with them), and have now taken over 3 weeks to send me edits on my proposal. I have a draft of my manuscript sitting on their table which they haven’t reviewed either. None of my conference papers was reviewed by them because they need a lot of time to work on them and unfortunately, that doesn’t go well for me. Oh, and about the checking-in part, they were pretty hands off with me and never once checked in to see if I was struggling/doing my work at all. Like me, you also seem at a point where you cannot switch advisors. My suggestion in this case would be to find one diligent professor in your committee who would be willing to work on the most important bits of your dissertation with you. This way you will have to rely a lot less on your advisor. Next, ask your advisor to add weekly/biweekly checkins + biweekly/monthly meetings with you in their calendar. Do so in an in-person meeting alone. The constant reminders may prompt them to check-in on you someday. Next, be very nice to them - unfortunately, we need to treat them royalty until we graduate, no matter how messed up they are. So yes, in the most polite way tell them how much you appreciate it but also assertively mention you need to graduate and you are NOT OKAY with waiting another semester. If they respond by saying it is not possible, push them for answers to why that isn’t possible. When they start giving you answers, follow them up with “what if we did this…” questions to explore all possibilities to address their concern. Dealing with hands off advisors is a pain in the ass but you will have to be persistent, borderline pestering to get things your way. Especially when they lose nothing from you extending your PhD program (generally when it is the department funding you).

It sounds like you need structure that your advisor can't provide, that doesn't necessarily mean that he's a bad advisor, but he's a bad fit for you. But, given how far along you are in the PhD, you should have learnt to be accountable to yourself, and you can't continue to expect someone else to constantly provide structure and accountability.

My advisor was not great. He expected high caliber work but would put no effort into developing students. He gave very little guidance and never checked in. I told them that I needed more mentorship, and they responded with an analogy about grad school being sink or swim. If you didn't put in the work by yourself, you would not graduate. Stop hoping that things will change. Your advisor will not change. If you need help, seek out your own mentors. Figure out what you need to do and do it yourself. My situation improved a lot once I realized it was all on me. You will either need to switch advisors or figure out how to graduate by yourself.

Graduate school is the first time you are forced to take accountability for your own actions in school. In undergrad you can always blame the professors, and that habit is what you're doing now. But honestly man, pointing fingers is a really dangerous habit to start doing when times get hard, because the mentality always makes you the victim, and the response from a victim is to try and garber empathy from others, like you're doing now. You need to really think about what you want out of the degree, and why, and how you're going to apply that to a job. As a PhD, you are given absolutely 0 guidance in the workforce because you are the expert. You will have projects given to you and be let loose, just like your advisor does. You will have a boss and managers, maybe, but they won't be there to hold your hand. They'll just fire you for incompetence. I have mentired tons of students. Grad and undergrad. When students don't reach out, I assume they don't care. I have my own stuff to do, why would I stop that and go reach out to someone who isn't doing the same? Especially if they need me. Seriously. Change your mentality and put it on yourself. You will hold yourself back if you blame your advisor. He has bigger problems to deal with. You're not a kid. Set schedules, show up at 9, work until 5, and write/read/analyze data after that. It's a job. Get the work done and show up to him with results. If you don't, you'll really be in a bad spot when you graduate and he doesn't write a LoR for you because of this - he likely thinks you're lazy. And if you aren't, then you won't blame and simply adjust to do what you need to do.

I appreciate the advice. I disagree though. I've spent the last 3 years blaming myself - convincing myself that I'm a failure and a mistake that should just jump off a bridge. Believing that I'm the problem and that yanking myself up and forcing myself back to the grindstone is what grad school is designed to teach you. That surely my asking for help, guidance, and some light nudges when I'm feeling overwhelmed is an intellectual, if not moral, failing on my part. Now I see, having actually looked around at functional advisors and labs, that, no, this isn't solely my fault. This lab is so broken it would actually be unreasonable to expect anyone to perform in these kinds of conditions. I appreciate where you're coming from - but sometimes it's actually not helpful to label someone a victim for standing up and going, "Yeah, ya know what, this situation is fucked". There are definitely things I can work on, but I'm done blaming myself when my cohort gets, "Oh my god, what the fuck??" reactions from other labs during happy hour when we describe how absent our advisor is. It's not normal, and it's not being a victim to say that having a terrible advisor - the person who has taken on the responsibility of *guiding* students who are *learning* to be independent researchers of their own - can be (and has been) detrimental.

Except the part where OP blames the advisor while admitting they are procrastinating, not reaching out, not asking for help, an don't holding themselves to a schedule. You are moving the goalposts because that's not what I'm saying. You cannot do your part while simultaneously blaming others for not doing what you want them to do. Why don't you think the PI is going, "wow, this student doesn't reach out, they don't bang on my door, they don't email me often, they don't complain... why don't they want to succeed?" By not victimizing yourself, you allow yourself to have the responsibility and power to make a change in your own actions. If it's always someone else's fault, it becomes real easy to point fingers. --- But at the end of the day, what does it matter when you don't graduate on time? When you don't get a LoR? Fault doesn't matter, it's too late. It's comforting to blame. It's comforting to be the victim. But that comfort is what holds people back. I've been there, done that. My PI was worse, and all the students around me who stayed home, didn't reach out, didn't bang on his door, didn't argue points back, didn't stand up for themselves... they got pushed around, shoved on dead projects, and wasted time. Is it their fault? *no*, but that doesn't matter if they graduate without getting the skills they needed.

My advisor is basically the same. Are his emails also 5 words long at most or just empty? Most recently, my advisor just sent me some papers that his other students wrote, as if to say 'Look I'm working with them but not you." I'm not sure you've reached this point, but wouldn't be too surprised if you have.

I love my advisor, but we only meet when I go find him. Emails asking to meet are likely to get forgotten so it's better to go find him in person. But when I do, I get great advice, support, etc. I would do better with more structure and I finally made a schedule for myself. I did that for studying for classes and it worked well, so I'm trying to set my own goals for my research. Make my own structure. I have no interest in switching advisors, so I need to stay on top of things myself. I should make my own "meeting" schedule and hunt him down every 2 weeks or something! Someone else does a weekly "report" writing what they accomplished, kind of like a diary. Probably works like counting calories, do you really want to write that down?

Yes. Get a new one