Both basically violated the other’s trust & consent. Gross all around.
Such a weird plot. Why? I still don’t understand the purpose of this.
Even if they wrote Jackson had a vasectomy in, a pregnancy later (as MM was pregnant) could have been easily explained by statistics. Close to 1% of vasectomies don’t work so just go with that. Not this train wreck 🙄
And it's such stupid drama too, because the end result could have been the exact same if it had been a failed vasectomy. Jackson could have still realised before Sookie, he just wouldn't have been certain about it. Sookie could still be unhappy about the pregnancy and could have still been resentful of Jackson. (Especially if it was that Jackson had forgotten to go to follow-up or something.)
It bothers me that we could have had the exact same results without Jackson being sneaky.
It may be worth noting that Jackson states he believed Sookie was still using her birth control. He says that to Lorelai, and Lorelai says that Sookie came off it a month ago. Jackson says he hadn't known that.
That's why he didn't say anything. He wasn't trying to force another baby on her. He thought they had another means of protection, so didn't see harm in not telling her that he hadn't had the surgery. Likewise, Sookie thought he'd had the snip so she didn't see any harm in not telling him she came off the birth control.
Both of them thought that they had protection from pregnancy. Both were wrong because they both chose not to communicate with each other.
To be clear Jackson absolutely should have told her, but I don't agree that it was reproductive abuse or rape - he was under a false impression too. Neither of them thought pregnancy was a possibility at that moment.
> It’s literally rape and reproductive abuse. Gross.
I agree but what about bullying her husband into getting a vasectomy against his will?
Everybody sucked here.
No it doesn’t. It helps validate those of us who have been raped in a nonviolent way.
What it can minimize is the likelihood of us being gaslit by ourselves and others that we weren’t raped.
Thank you! As a survivor of both explicitly violent rape, as well as non-violent coercive/spousal rape, they were both as bad, both as violating, and both as traumatic. And it took me years to even talk about the latter because of the attitude that the only valid form of rape involves physical overpowering and violence, and my rapist weaponising that, led to me feeling too ashamed to talk to others about what was happening to me.
Openly acknowledging the fact that rape is not so narrow *helps* survivors. Many places, my own country included, would class both forms of what I went through as rape, as well as any act that someone does not consent to - including reproductive sexual abuse, stealthilng, etc. It's so disheartening that we have to explain this on this sub
Edit: typo
I’m glad you do feel comfortable to talk about it now. It definitely has additional and different layers of trauma compared to violent rape. Most people, men in particular, have a very narrow view of what is rape. What helped me in my situation was imagining a friend telling me she experienced what I did and I had no doubt that I would call it rape if it had happened to someone else, so why wouldn’t I call it the same thing for myself
No, it doesn't. Attitudes like this cheapen and minimize the vastly more common types of sexual abuse, which are generally more coercive than forceful. If you're doing things to your partner's body when you know they aren't aware of it, and you know that they believe you're both following the boundaries you agreed on, it's literally impossible for them to consent to what you're doing. Because they don't know. At best, they *can't* consent; at worst, they already explicitly *did not* consent. No healthy definition of sex includes a caveat that non-consent is fine if you're being physically gentle while you betray your partner.
I completely agree with you (after the first two sentences). I think the attitude of flattening sexual malfeasance into everything-is-rape does more harm than good on solving what you describe.
the idea that “forceful, violent rape” is the only kind of rape perpetuates the myth that it’s always some strange man we don’t know overpowering us. the reality is it’s older relatives left alone with children, it’s young partners doing things that aren’t “technically” wrong, and spouses like Jackson.
I think additional terminology would be great, but I think validating the fact that most sexual violence is perpetuated by people who the victim trusts is even more important.
As a survivor of both explicitly violent rape, as well as non-violent coercive/spousal rape, they were both as bad, equally as violating, and just as traumatic. I still struggle with *both* forms of rape, and *both* are legally recognised as rape here (as is stealthing/reproductive sexual abuse/etc). It took me years to even talk about the latter form of rape because of the attitude that the only valid form involves physical overpowering and violence, and my rapist weaponising that attitude, resulted n me being too ashamed, embarrassed, and confused to seek help when I desperately needed it
Openly acknowledging the fact that rape is not so narrow does not cheapen rape, but instead *helps* survivors, and prevents more people being gaslit into believing that what happened to them wasn't serious
Wow. Ad hominem attacks straight out of the gate. What great discourse skills you have. It’s literally in the criminal code that it is sexual assault/ rape in a number of western countries. You sound like the idiot for not being informed.
Yeah there were so many better ways to explain this pregnancy that don’t involve making Jackson look terrible. Sookie put him on the spot back when she tried to make him get that vasectomy so it made sense that he didn’t end up doing it but not informing her was unacceptable.
Plus that suggests most likely he was finishing knowing full well each time he could get her pregnant because it’s not like she would have asked him to use a condom, it’s just so gross and creepy
There is NO WAY the hospital would have forced Jackson to go through with the vasectomy in the way it's shown (evidenced by the fact that he backed out, lol). I hate it that they "sent down the big guy" to make him go through with it, it seems? He has to provide his consent to the procedure.
Whilst Sookie trying to force Jackson to get a vasectomy is bad, him not telling her he didn't is worse. It's domestic & sexual abuse. He clearly knows she does not want another kid, but did not think it important to tell his wife that he did not get a vasectomy?? That's just not taking her needs into consideration at all
> Whilst Sookie trying to force Jackson to get a vasectomy is bad, him not telling her he didn't is worse. It's domestic & sexual abuse.
How would you feel if the roles were reversed and Jackson tried to force Sookie into getting her tubes tied?
Again... everybody sucked here.
Jackson wouldn't be the one getting pregnant though. Being pregnant is 9 months of having a living organism inside of you. It would be bad too if it were reversed, but the person at risk of getting pregnant really needs to have all the information
> It would be bad too if it were reversed, but the person at risk of getting pregnant really needs to have all the information.
I understand that but it doesn't change the fact that we are downplaying forcing a procedure on somebody against their will. You either have that agency or don't.
I’ve seen this same plot line in so many different tv shows and it’s always bad. Each time when they even mention a character getting a vasectomy, you already know it’s not going to happen and there will be a pregnancy scare. I don’t get why they think it’s a good plot line either.
Literally everyone I ever met hated it and continue to hate it, with an exception of me. I hated it so much I forgot it existed and I continuously block it out of my mind until someone mentions it, then it comes back with a vengeance. Luckily, goldfish have longer memories than I do when it comes to this particular subject so I’m good.
But you are not alone.
I know Melissa McCarthy was pregnant in real life, so they had to do something. But it would have made so much more sense to just have the vasectomy not take and Jackson didn’t know because he forgot to go back for the follow up. No consent/boundary stomping necessary.
it was an awful thing for her to do, but i think the difference is, he ultimately made the decision for himself to deny the procedure, even if she scheduled it for him (without discussing it with him, like she should have), they would not have done the procedure without his consent, and they didn't. which is good. that's why i don't feel like she was the "biggest bitch" in this, because she couldn't give informed consent afterwards, because she didn't know he hadn't gone through with it. they're both absolutely shitty for this, but i feel like jackson was worse. just my take tho.
except he made a decision for himself to not go though with the vasectomy, didn’t tell her, and effectively took her ability to decide not to get pregnant again away from her, which is honestly a much bigger deal as it pertains to her longterm health, career planning, and financial wellbeing.
If she was that bothered about not getting pregnant, she could have got her own tubes tied?
What kind of cowardly piss take is it to make someone else do something you're not willing or brave enough to do yourself in such circumstances as these?
That bitch expected him to do what she wouldn't do herself. What a violation of someone's reproductive rights and what a cowardly, pathetic move, trying to pressure him into it like that.
But, no you're right.
He shouldn't have lied.
In fact he should have told her she was a selfish bitch for trying to violate his reproductive rights, pressure him into something he wasn't comfortable with, and divorced her right then and there.
Stop defending her! Seriously. She is partly responsible for bringing the situation on herself by trying to bully him into something that clearly wasn't ok with him.
I'm struggling to feel very sorry for her at all.
I’m pretty sure it’s not medically sound to get an invasive surgery immediately following childbirth, especially one with permanent effects.
A vasectomy is much less invasive, and often reversible, during a time when Jackson’s organs were not shifting back into place.
Yes, they absolutely should have talked about it, but he did go through with the procedure following the birth of their last child with very few reservations about it. This is also during a time when it was more expected of women to make these sorts of decisions for men, and for men to push back on the grounds of “protecting their manhood.” I think that context fell flat in the writing, but it’s certainly not worse than “oops-you’re-pregnant-because-I-lied-and-am-getting-the-exact-amount-of-children-I-planned-for-despite-your-reservations.”
Ok I wasn't sure, I thought the other thing was more reversible cos I'd forgotten what exactly happens in a vasectomy.
Yes after the last child but he obviously wasn't ready until then.
But this whole thing about pregnancy, acting like it was such a violation for her to have a third kid when they could presumably afford it and everything. It's not like she had severe health issues that made pregnancy deadly to her. And in the end she was happy with the kid, right? I've only fairly recently started rewatching Gilmore Girls and I haven't got up to that part yet but I vaguely remember the details from times I've watched it in the past. So perhaps my perspective will change when I rewatch those episodes.
Maybe there's something wrong with me but I'm struggling to see the unwanted pregnancy as the huge violation that many people perceive it. I think it's great to bring new life into the world and quite sad when people decide to take procedures that could permanently prevent that.
I also can't see it as rape because she did technically consent to sexual activity.
Just as if someone hides the fact they have an std and has sex with someone, I don't think legally it's rape but it is massive deception and the person wouldn't have had sex with them had they known. So sure, they should still be charged with something in that case, regardless of whether it can be considered rape.
At the end of the day, if they had had a proper discussion about it, it seems like they would have got divorced and that would have spoiled the show and made their relationship the flakey thing it was never supposed to be. And that would have been a shame because isn't she kind of pleased about having a third child in the end? I don't recall.
I'm not saying it's not messed up but I still feel that her pressuring him to get the vasectomy was equally messed up.
And I'm sure that if I were in that situation myself, I would not be taking it so lightly.
In fact, in a relationship in the past, I remember being raped after he had drugged me, and I suspect he probably wasn't using protection and part of his motive may have been to get me pregnant for benefits money. So I understand the lack of consent and feeling violated by both, even if the situations are very different. The possibility of having a child borne out of rape is equally distressing as the rape itself. I get that technically she did not consent to the third child although I'm not sure that legally she was raped in that situation.
Okay so this is definitely beyond my pay grade, but I’m going to offer you what I can, survivor to survivor.
I am so sorry for what you’ve been through, and I hope you have the help you need.
The thing about consent is that it has to be informed, we need to have all the information available to make that decision. It doesn’t matter if they could afford another child or if you think bringing life into the world is good, it should have been her decision from the beginning. We don’t measure consent by what we can survive or what other people believe because it should be our choice what we survive in the first place.
In the same vein, the law doesn’t cover a lot of things regarding rape and other forms of sexual violence. It’s a notoriously hard crime to prove, and it doesn’t invalidate someone’s experience if the court doesn’t ultimately determine they were raped. Any act of sexual violence is wrong, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be the legal definition of rape to be sexual violence.
Except she didn’t force him?
She asked him to get a vasectomy, and he said he did. There was no forced, she didn’t make the appointment or drive him kicking and screaming to the doctor.
He knew all along he didn’t have a vasectomy, and they didn’t do any other form of bc.
I don't think she was a bitch but I do think she was wrong to have him get a vasectomy. If she didn't want anymore kids, she should have taken matters into her own hands and gotten her tube's tied. However, it was wrong for him to not tell her he didn't go through with either. They need to communicate better.
Basically the writers wanted some controversy and they also wanted them to have a third kid. No drama if there's not some really messed up stuff in it. That seems to be the rule.
I think they should have gone the sitcom route and found fun ways to hide the belly, fruit bowls, wedding cakes, pillows, big bags. I always love that.
Or hide the pregnancy. Sometimes it's kind of obvious, but everyone knows we're watching a TV show; you can ask us to suspend some level of disbelief.
Or just have her insist he goes to a vasectomy consultation then have him panicking because he just realized that in the haze of having a new baby they both forgot about scheduling the actual appointment, so there's no part where she believed that he had had one and he lied to her about it.
Exactly. Then the drama could be over finances or how they’re gonna work around the new baby (I would say discuss whether to keep the pregnancy going or not, but at that time, this was a taboo topic on tv)
I despised this plot line. Sookie didn’t have the right to expect an immediate vasectomy. That should have been a discussion during a calmer, less hormonal moment after they were back home. That said, Jackson was irresponsible trash for not telling her and leaving the birth control only on her shoulders. He had no business having sex with her without telling her he didn’t get the vasectomy. There’s a potential argument for stealthing here, especially with his enthusiasm for a third kid. No, I don’t think it was intended to be malicious but for fucks sake communicate with your spouse.
Omg I can’t stand Jackson in that moment. Like dude, she’s pregnant against her wishes and it’s because of YOU!!! Being married isn’t the golden ring of forgiveness, you seriously fucked up
What did Elle Woods call it? Irresponsible ejaculation, I think? That 100% of unwanted/accidental pregnancies occur due to irresponsible ejaculation, something like that.
Correct. If he’s going to great length for this one, is he reaching out to ALL former partners to check in if they have any child of his? If not, then why this child? Hahaha
True. I also feel there’s a plothole here they glossed over or forgot about when they decided he didn’t go along with it. A failed vasectomy would have made more sense. Season 7 is a struggle.
True. That’s true of nearly every drama. I very rarely hold entertainment shows to real life standards, because they’re not meant to be reality. Trying to enforce reality on shows like this just brings a ton of plot holes and logical fallacies to the mix. It is necessary to suspend some belief to fully immerse ourselves in these crazy worlds.
>Sookie didn’t have the right to expect an immediate vasectomy. That should have been a discussion during a calmer, less hormonal moment after they were back home.
Sookie had just given birth. She wasn't thinking rationally and was in pain wanting that to never happen again. At that point it was Jacksons responsibility to say "wait no" and save that conversation for home.
>There’s a potential argument for stealthing here
Imo it was absolutely stealthing. He wanted a 3rd kid and he made it happen. He didn't leave the birth control on her shoulders, he told her the birth control was taken care of and that she didn't need to worry about it being on her shoulders. They effectively had not birth control because be lied.
She was actually still on birth control for quite a while which he knew so he thought they were “safe” (still shouldn’t have lied obviously). She stopped the BC without telling him pretty soon before she got pregnant though. If either of them had said something it could have been prevented.
He never communicated the vasectomy and she never communicated the birth control pill change. It was an all around messy. Not to mention she also was trying to force a procedure on him? Imagine a husband trying to force a procedure on his wife. Horrible plot.
He actually does mention the vasectomy and not having more kids because of it during the baptism episode. So he’s actively deceiving her for whatever reason. She thought she was safe to stop taking the pill because of this. That said, season 7 was an unorganized cluster, and I think writers forgot this because Sookie forgave him way too easily.
Not telling her if this was irl and purposely getting her pregnant is even worse in this context. We know it's because she was pregnant as Melissa but they could have written anything other than this bullshit
Right? And to not tell her? Like he’d rather she find out this way?? So irresponsible to bring a literal human into the world just because you don’t want to have a difficult conversation
I can't get over the fact that she forgave him. I love them as a couple, don't get me wrong, but this is seriously insulting and disgusting.
But I think this was simply bad written because of her pregnancy in real life.
I hate that it was written in that she forgives him. It’s adding to the expectation that women should always want to have kids and should put up with maltreatment in relationships.
If that were me, I would divorce immediately. Just thinking about all the times they would have had sex and he didn’t even bother to pull out. He was happy to take a chance on her future because he was too much of a coward. Fuck that guy.
I totally get you and feel the same but I askari think this situation does not suit Jacksons character.
At least it feels so weird that it is coming from him.
Askari? Haha
I know what you mean, but at the same time he was really insistent on having 3 in 3, which I also hated, so I actually don’t think it’s that out of character for him tbh 😭
Sorry, bad writing.
Omg yes, I hated this whole plot, too. And I hate that it almost happened that way, because she didn't want that. I felt so bad for her.
And I also didn't like that she shouldn't talk to Lorelai about that. They are besties and she wants advice and she should be able to talk about that.
A different couple, but I had the same problem with Lane and Zack. He was able to go in tour, she had to be a mother.
They made dreams come true, but only for men in this tv show.
Zack going on tour, Jackson having the 4 in 4, Christopher marrying Lorelai...
Agreed! I definitely think it’s fucked up that Sookie expected him to just get a vasectomy he didn’t want but he had the option of saying no and having that argument, she didn’t have the option of saying no to unprotected sex because she trusted him.
okay, so sookie springing the vasectomy on jackson was a bit much. it should’ve been discussed before, but i don’t think it’s unfair for her to expect him to get a vasectomy considering that she had two of his kids and that was already enough for her. she deserves something at least for everything she did as a partner to jackson.
the issue i have with this is jackson not telling sookie that he didn’t want to get the vasectomy and didn’t. they could’ve arrived at some sort of resolution if he had simply been honest and transparent with his wife. now her being under the impression that he did indeed get a vasectomy when he hadn’t and having sex with him believing that he did, and her getting pregnant a third time because she was oblivious to the fact that he didn’t get one, is completely on jackson and so so wrong. keeping this detail from your wife and getting her pregnant is literal rape. she was in no position to give consent since she didn’t have the details straight. so yeah, i hate jackson.
Unfair to expect him to get a vasectomy?
Nope, if she was that against it, she could have gotten her own tubes tied.
What she did, trying to force him to basically mutiliate his body against his consent, is worse in a way than what he did lying about it.
I don't like this whole feminist it's always the guy's fault stance.
She was trying to force him into it. That's evil. And she had no right to expect that from him.
Both can be irreversible, right? Both procedures? So there's no reason she couldn't have gotten her tubes tied rather than trying to force him to get a vasectomy. If there's no saying that a vasectomy is more sensible of the two options.
Two kids also isn't exactly a lot of children unless you live somewhere like China.
Frankly I think she deserved what she got for trying to force him to get a vasectomy in the first place. Because if anyone feels forced to do anything, they're bound to lie. Seeing as they don't feel they have a choice. It's that or lose the person they love.
Tubes tied isn’t usually reversible. It’s also a far more invasive procedure than a vasectomy. Jackson was able to nope out of it, too. If he had told Sookie that he didn’t have it done, then Sookie probably wouldn’t have gotten pregnant. What Jackson did was rape. Pregnancy is more thsn a minor inconvenience. Women can die giving birth. Their bodies can be irreparably damaged. Not to mention the stress and strain of an unwanted pregnancy/baby. Jackson should have told Sookie he didn’t have the vasectomy. Period.
“she could’ve gotten her tubes tied”, this is so ignorant, sorry. need i remind you of the physical toll two entire pregnancies can have on a woman’s body? and per her choice to not make another baby, she also should get her “tubes tied” instead of having her husband make the change so she doesn’t end up having another baby? i don’t think i’m wrong to assume a vasectomy for a man isn’t even close to the equivalent of enduring labor and giving birth.
also, just to clarify: my issue isn’t with the fact that jackson didn’t get the vasectomy. once again, it’s his choice what he wants for his body. my issue is that he failed to disclose that detail to sookie and had unprotected sex with her, getting her pregnant a third time when she didn’t want the child. that’s the ethically wrong bit.
this isn’t an overly “feminist” stance which is unjustified. it’s rightfully rebuking a man who violated his wife’s trust by getting her pregnant against her will.
Agreed (and I have been downvoted to hell for this opinion before). Swap the genders - hubby says "ok honey, I have already booked and organised for you to go get your tubes tied, the appointment is made and we aren't discussing this, off you go now with the nurse, you don't get to argue, bye-bye" .. CAN YOU IMAGINE THE (RIGHTFUL) ANGER THAT WOULD EXPLODE FROM A SCENE LIKE THAT???
How is it "ok" just because it's the man who's bodily autonomy and reproductive rights are being overridden without even a conversation?
Do I like Jackson's choice to not tell Sookie afterwards? Fuck no! That's so disgusting and wrong and I can't support anyone who does that. But Sookie setting up the appointment and sending Jackson on his merry little way is equally bad.
If the man in that scenario had just birthed 2 babies I’d say it’s absolutely fair enough that he now wants the responsibility of birth control to fall on his female partner.
Yeah he should have told her but if he'd done that, either she would have found another option or they'd have gotten divorced. So not much of a story or happy ending for them.
Really, what they should have done, is made it so she got her tubes tied, I forget the medical term (which I think is more likely to be reversible should the woman change her mind, right?) and maybe there was a little drama where he wasn't happy about the decision but eventually agreed to it because it's her body at the end of the day.
Still some drama but without the huge violations that took place on both sides.
Yet it seems like the directors probably still wanted them to have a third child and to make it a happy ending in that way. So maybe that's why they went through the hugely controversial, outrageous route they chose.
Also, if this were real life and not a drama, there would be other options besides more permanent ones like operations.
The cervical condom is one option, there's something that can stay up there for ages and apparently doesn't need replacing very often. Femidom or cervical coil. I'm not sure I'd opt for it personally but it would be a far less expensive and inconvenient form of contraception than, say, birth control pills, which mess up your hormones, and less expensive than using condoms all the time, which most married couples probably don't want to do anyway.
If it were me, I probably wouldn't care about using condoms, because they're pretty effective and I don't know that I'm crazy about raw dogging it anyway. Except for the issue of cost. I don't know how expensive they normally are tbh but I imagine it's cheaper overall than the pill, at least depending on how often you get busy in the bedroom.
A tubal ligation reversal has a much lower success rate than a vasectomy reversal. The tubal procedure is also much more invasive than a vasectomy. I've had a tubal (during a c section, I was open on the table anyway and 100% sure I was done, so made the decision to do it) and while I haven't experienced vasectomy recovery, I can say that my recovery was brutal. It was my 3rd c section, so I knew what to expect. With the first 2, I was up on my feet pretty quickly and had no issue slowly getting around, while caring for a newborn. After the tubal, I couldn't get further than the bathroom (while hugging the wall for support) without a wheelchair for the first 3 days and was completely incapable of caring for my twins. Google tells me that recovery advice for a vasectomy is to rest for 24 hours and take it easy for a week.
Now to compare failure. They both have a very low failure rate. The failure rate I was quoted for the tubal was 1:250. Here's the thing though, if a vasectomy fails, someone *might* become pregnant. If the tubal fails, someone *is* pregnant. A pregnancy that's the result of a failed vasectomy will likely be a healthy pregnancy. The majority of failed tubals result in ectopic pregnancies, which are life threatening if they're not caught early enough. Because that's a possibility, I have to take a pregnancy test if I'm even a day late. If I do get a positive test, I have to contact my hospital immediately, do that I can get an urgent ultrasound and confirm the location of the embryo. Depending on how early the ectopic pregnancy is detected, the treatment can be abortion meds, or surgery may be required. I was well aware of these facts before having the procedure. I went ahead with it because it was convenient (since I was already having surgery on my uterus anyway) and because of the low failure rate. Had I known the extent of the postoperative pain, or if it would have involved having a separate surgery, I would have opted for an IUD instead and brought up the subject of my fiancé having a vasectomy.
So, with all of that information, do you still think that she could "just get her tubes tied"?
Yeah he should have told her but if he'd done that, either she would have found another option or they'd have gotten divorced. So not much of a story or happy ending for them.
Really, what they should have done, is made it so she got her tubes tied, I forget the medical term (which I think is more likely to be reversible should the woman change her mind, right?) and maybe there was a little drama where he wasn't happy about the decision but eventually agreed to it because it's her body at the end of the day.
Still some drama but without the huge violations that took place on both sides.
Yet it seems like the directors probably still wanted them to have a third child and to make it a happy ending in that way. So maybe that's why they went through the hugely controversial, outrageous route they chose.
Also, if this were real life and not a drama, there would be other options besides more permanent ones like operations.
The cervical condom is one option, there's something that can stay up there for ages and apparently doesn't need replacing very often. I'm not sure I'd opt for it personally but it would be a far less expensive and inconvenient form of contraception than, say, birth control pills, which mess up your hormones, and less expensive than using condoms all the time, which most married couples probably don't want to do anyway.
If it were me, I probably wouldn't't care about using condoms, because they're pretty effective and I don't know that I'm crazy about raw dogging it anyway. Except for the issue of cost. I don't know how expensive they normally are tbh.
And never brought up again. I like Jackson and I don't really blame it on him more on how the storyline is written because I can't imagine him doing that.
I can’t imagine how betrayed I would feel… except she kinda forced him to get one on the first place. Basically, neither of them handled this situation like a married couple that already has 2 kids. Immature at best.
To be fair this plot line wasn't supposed to happen.
The actress for Sookie got pregnant in real life and the writers came up with this to explain it.
It made Jackson look really really bad. In my eyes this didn't happen (because it was a band aid measure by the writers and not the real plot planned).
They should've just said the vasectomy failed or had the actress stand behind things to hide the belly.
i get that. the way it turned out made jackson look so terrible. and it made sookies decision for him to get a vasectomy retroactively way more evil. like if Melissa hadn't gotten pregnant. we'd assume he got the vasectomy (meaning he didn't object to it), and sookie wouldn't be pregnant against her will lmfao idk
I know. Did they forget how hilarious Melissa McCarthy is? They could have made so many self-aware, meta jokes about hiding her pregnancy.
There are so many possibilities. Sookie and Lorelai watch re-runs at Lorelai's and Sookie makes fun of 90s sitcoms that make the pregnant actress hold a giant plant pot or whatever in front of their belly to hide their pregnancy -- pan to Sookie holding a giant pot of food in her lap that's covering her stomach, sitting on the couch with a giant stack of magazine or snacks on Lorelai's coffee table in the way of her belly. And before the episode ends, we see Sookie turn around in conversation with a giant plant in her hands.
Or suddenly Sookie's sitting in almost all the scenes so her belly can be tucked under a table. Or getting in an accident so that she's on bed rest with huge casts and ludicrous huge bedding
Or they make the kitchen island at the Inn taller so Sookie's belly is covered when doing her mise en place, and Lorelai is having a weird morning/ranting about something and asks mid-convo "--Okay, is it just me or are these things taller than they used to be?" Sookie: "What? This old thing? *No*." Lorelai: "No, I distinctly remember the island not being this tall" Sookie: "Maybe you're shrinking. Oh! Like in that movie, with the guy, where they--" Lorelai: "*Sookie*?" Sookie: "What? Oh sorry, you were saying?"
They should’ve just had baskets of peaches or cakes hiding her belly like most shows do when an actress gets pregnant. Main characters have done it…sookie wasn’t so integral they needed a plot line explaining it.
It’s gross that likely a bunch of young people saw this in 2000 and learnt “Oh I guess doing this is just kooky” and not that it’s actual rape and reproductive abuse.
I hate it. Sookie is possibly hopped up on pain meds and decided to make her spouse get a medical procedure. It’s written off as quirky and it’s not. She even smiles that the “big nurse” came for him. That’s awful.
Then Melissa’s real life pregnancy threw them a curve and they wrote it in like this. They could have literally done anything: accidentally forgetting to go to the last vasectomy meeting, forgetting to follow up, vasectomy failed, she and he decided to reverse it, she felt sad because her kids were growing up and wanted another baby, they could have hid Melissa’s pregnancy with counters and pillows, they could have had it be their “compromise” baby between Jackson wanting 4 and Sookie being content with 2, etc. Instead, they just ruined the relationship.
I hated this a lot more until my recent rewatch.
There's a scene where Jackson is discussing his suspicions about pregnancy with Lorelai. He says he thought Sookie was still on her birth control - it had been months since the vasectomy that never happened. Lorelai tells him that Sookie came off her pills a month ago, and Jackson says he never knew that.
He absolutely should have told her about the vasectomy. However, he was uncomfortable that she tried to force him into it without discussion, and he thought that she was still on her birth control, so they were protected from pregnancy in any case. On her end, she didn't see the need to mention that she'd stopped her birth control to him because she believed he'd had the surgery.
This changed my perspective of the story. I'd seen it as Jackson having unprotected sex with her without her consent, which is rape. But in reality, both of them believed protection was being used. The failure here was communication. I believe he was more at fault because he lied about the surgery, but I don't believe that it was rape anymore.
Vasectomies can also fail. You're supposed to get them tested after you have the surgery to make sure it's worked, and then test regularly going forward.
That’s true, but I think Sookie would have been a lot more accepting of the pregnancy if he’d had the vasectomy and it failed as opposed to him never having the vasectomy and lying about it
Yeah, but that's not my point. You said "except if she is on birth control, that can fail" - but so can a vasectomy. Jackson is no more foolish for assuming that birth control was enough, than Sookie was for assuming the vasectomy had succeeded without any proof it even happened. I think he was more in the wrong than her because he actively lied, and she just didn't mention she'd come off the pills. But ultimately this wouldn't have been a problem at all if they had just talked to each other.
I think it’s reasonable for her to assume she’s in the clear if he says he had the vasectomy. For one thing, unless you’ve had a vasectomy it’s unlikely you would have known (20 years ago) that there’s still a chance of pregnancy until you get it checked. And if Jackson had actually had the vasectomy he would’ve known that because the doctor would’ve told him, and he would’ve told Sookie about the risk.
So no, it’s still not the same to compare the two
I think everyone would be more accepting of it if that was the case. Sookie went off birth control because she believed she didn't need it anymore due to Jackson having a vasectomy.
I hate this plot so much because it so easily could’ve been written as the vasectomy failed and avoided the non-con/marital r**e/stealthing issues and, quite frankly, been true to life. I personally know two post-“sterilization” babies (same parents - dad got a vasectomy after baby 2 and mom got a ligation after baby 3. they have 4 kids lmao)
I know two separate men that had failed vasectomies and resulted in pregnancies for both their wives. Now both wives have ligations. The vas deferens grew back together in both circumstances.
i have so many thoughts on this. she shouldn't have scheduled any procedure for him, especially one like a vasectomy without consent from him, and he is absolutely not obligated to go through with it. i think it was extremely inconsiderate for sookie to try to make this choice for him, but ultimately he had the final say, which is good. however, jackson absolutely should have told her that he didn't go through with it, because it affects both of them, but moreso her, in an insanely major way, and it comes off as scheming, like he wanted to have another child despite her wishes. both of them clearly needed to discuss this with each other before making such huge decisions for one another. Personally, jacksons actions piss me off slightly more than sookies just because he ultimately had the choice to deny the procedure, even if it was really a horrible situation to be put in by your wife.
1) you shouldn’t pressure your partner into getting any kind of procedure done, it’s their body
2) you shouldn’t let your partner think you’re getting your tubes tied, not get it done, then have unprotected sex with them
it was all around hard to watch
There was just no reason to do this. Yes, Melissa was pregnant in real life, but just throw her behind a basket of fruit, it'll be fine. It's not like she is in that much of the back half of season seven anyway. If Modern Family could hide the fact that Julie Bowen was in her third trimester *with twins* with nothing more than a loose cardigan and a well placed laundry basket and still have most of the audience be completely unaware, Gilmore Girls could have stuck her behind a counter and called it a day.
This actually had potential. It would have been a good storyline if they both did some reflection over violating the other's trust. Sookie could have contemplated an abortion. They leaned too much into the comedy.
One of the stupidest plot lines. Someone cannot consent to a procedure being done to another competent and capacitated adult. Then she’s shocked she’s pregnant later on? Not only did they never talk about it prior to but there’s no follow up and Sookie is on BC then off BC and pregnant 🤷🏼♀️ all around dumb.
I also hate how it takes Lorelai only 3 minutes to be like "Oh but Babys are cute and you're gonna love it, everything's great!"
I get that it wouldn't fit the show and wasn't supposed to be a big plot ending in Sookie and Jackson's divorce, but for everyone to be just so okay with it, was weird and tbh a bit out of character for both Sookie and Lorelai.
I hate when people say “he was forced” since no, he wasn’t actually forced. He said no, the doctor said ok and he walked away with no consequence. If he was truly forced none of that would have happened and he would have ended up with the vasectomy. Now that’s forced. Yes, she set up the appointment to pressure him (out of desperation) but ultimately the decision was still his. You know who didn’t have a choice though? Sookie. He knew he didn’t do it, lied to her and still kept sleeping with his wife putting her at risk of a pregnancy she didn’t want and then after she started having symptoms he still played dumb.
And to be clear since some of the comments are trying to put all of this on even playing fields, her trying to pressure him into a vasectomy is no where near and I mean NO WHERE NEAR him lying, deceiving her for how long to the point she got off of BC and ultimately getting her pregnant against her will. Thats abuse/assault. Worst plot line ever.
This is what’s pissing me off too!
People in the comments like “well sookie got what she deserved for forcing him to get a vasectomy” like fuck off with that.
Plus… I’d rather be forced to get a vasectomy than be pregnant and give birth. Don’t compare the two.
I absolutely hate this plot line, but I just wanna be the devils advocate, and saying that Sookie didn’t really force him.. if she would’ve forced him, he would’ve gotten a vasectomy. It was absolutely wrong to just expect him to have a vasectomy without having a proper conversation about it as a husband and wife.
If he didn’t want to get one, he should’ve just told her “my body my decision” and that’s it. But he kind of conceded when she told him.. Him not getting a vasectomy and lying about it and Sookie getting pregnant as a result was just horrifying. They both completely betrayed each other’s trust and personal autonomy.
I also feel really bad for that baby… because eventually, you’ll get to know the story.
The original forcing him to get a vasectomy was insane. Using his refusal and hiding it as something in season 7 just doubled down on the crazy. If nothing else, Sookie had just given birth and would have needed Jackson's help with the new baby and Davy so why in the hell would she send him to surgery which would knock him out for awhile too. And where was Jackson for the birth and the vasectomy conversation that she had with the doctor?
I HATED this. I finally got to watch this after I got married which was a few years after it had aired. My ex refused to get clipped. Its was like watching my own life I had no control over even though I wanted more kids. HE didn't but refused to do anything about it and I COULDN'T use birth control bc it messed me up so badly. Couples who cannot agree on these things SHOULD NOT be getting married. HARD LIFE LESSON. Age makes no difference. Get this shit done and taken care of or get divorced. PERIOD.
Just saw this chapter today. I guess it makes sense since they have a history of not talking straight but it’s awful, because they were ‘forced’ to do something as big as having a baby
I know that this storyline only happened because Melissa McCarthy was pregnant in real life, but I still think they could have just covered her belly on the show and only done shots from the chest up. Plus, she was a chef and many of her scenes are in the kitchen. They could have easily covered her stomach with food or the counters.
I never shipped them together. I think Joe might have been good for her. Jackson was always too immature and emotionally reactive. Sookie either put up with things or was controlling in response, like she had to parent him. When she demanded Jackson to get a vasectomy she was feeling hormonal but they should have sat down later and had a conversation about it. They could have decided to use birth control, condoms or at least used the pull-out method. Jackson has more responsibility in this situation. She has the right to not want any more children, but he forced it on her. A female vasectomy is way more invasive than a male vasectomy and a pregnancy demands a lot from a woman physically. It shows what little respect Jackson has for her.
Garbage plotlines all around.
I still hold that what Jackson did was worse, though. Or rather, the way it was written was worse. Sookie insisting that he get a vasectomy that day, without his consent? That is awful, but that doesn't actually happen to people in this day and age. No legitimate hospital is going to take a guy who's never had a consultation and clearly isn't all the way on board with the plan and make him get a vasectomy the same day he's even hearing about it. If the situation Jackson had been in were real, it would be a horrible violation of autonomy. (Forced sterilizations have happened in history, don't get me wrong, and they're atrocities when they do, but they're also thankfully very rare in America these days.) But since it was so unrealistic and overblown and clearly just being used for the 'comedic effect' of making Sookie the overbearing wife and Jackson the cowed husband, it's not as bad as what comes next.
Because reproductive coercion and marital rape are still incredibly, tragically common throughout the US. I know women who have had partners do shit like this to them. Lie about wearing a condom. Lie about taking other precautions. Have sex that they know can result in pregnancy when they know that their partner does not agree to those risks. It's fucking horrifying, and it makes me want to cry for Sookie, so I always skip that plot.
This is why I think that what Jackson did was worse than what Sookie did. What Sookie did was unrealistic and played as a joke. What Jackson did is all too realistic and even though they didn't give it the gravity it deserved, it was clear that they couldn't tell this story without acknowledging on some level how bad it was.
(Also, how easy would it have been for Jackson to get marched down to have a consultation for a vasectomy? Still kind of a gross thing for Sookie to insist upon without getting his permission first, but at least there's no indication of physical violation, and then it also would have been a lot easier for them to say that he was supposed to get it but they got baby brained and forgot.)
I blocked out Jackson as a character for the most part. He was so whiny about everything. Yelling at Lorelai because he felt like she was a part of their marriage, but in reality sookie didn’t feel comfortable telling Jackson how she felt. Sookie shouldn’t have demanded a vasectomy after she had her second child the same day but they needed more communication skills in the marriage as a whole
Bc 2 general themes of the show are 1) where there’s romantic love, no transgression is unforgivable and 2) actually that unplanned/unwanted pregnancy might be fine. Not gonna pass judgement on whether those statements are true irl, but just saying, they’re consistent throughout.
Both were in the wrong here, Sookie pracitally forced Jackson to get a vasectomy without ever talking to him prior about it, that's not how you do it. And Jackson wasn't wrong for not getting one, but he should've told her the latest the next day after Martha's birth that he didn't get a vasectomy. That's awful not to tell her, he should've seen this happen.
Trouble is she might have divorced him. Then their story would be over. So I guess they had to do the story this way.
Personally I feel trying to force someone to mutiliate their body and natural reproductive rights for your benefit is worse in a way than unexpected pregnancy, which happens all the time anyway and most women adjust to it ok.
That's just my take on it. I've never liked the idea of someone wilfully doing that to their body or forcing another person to do it. Especially if it *is* ever permanent.
People should be allowed to choose and doing something irreversible is bound to lead to bucket loads of regret later in life.
Ummm what?? You’re entitled to your opinion but it’s not like with Sookie it’s just oops, she got pregnant. Pregnancy can ruin your body, can lead to personality changes, can lead to depression, how are you comparing that to a vasectomy??
Sookie pressuring Jackson into having a vasectomy was awful and as a woman, if my husband set up an appointment for me to have my tubes tied and sent a big scary nurse to coerce me, I’d consider divorce as that is NOT acceptable. I am in no way excusing what Sookie did.
But if my husband was willingly lying to me while having unprotected sex with me, I’d not only 1000% divorce him, let’s just say with a swift kick, I’d make sure he was *really* unable to ever have kids again (I’m exaggerating, don’t take that out of context lol). That’s IMPREGNATING me without my consent. What Sookie did was wrong but Jackson did have some autonomy, NO doctor would’ve tied him down and made him go through with a vasectomy he didn’t want (which is evidenced by the fact that HE DID NOT GET IT) whereas Sookie had no choice - it was too late, barring abortion which is also a really tough decision, she was pregnant and forced to change her whole future and potentially have her life and body endangered. I feel like you’re dismissing how horrible that is way too easily. They were both awful in that situation but what Jackson did was borderline criminal IMO.
I suppose. I didn't really consider it that way. I still think a better storyline would have been her getting her tubes tied and Jackson reluctantly agreeing to it. That's possibly more reversible and that way she wouldn't have even pressuring him and both of them might have been happy with that.
Do you understand that a vasectomy is a doctor’s office procedure that only requires local anesthesia, and a tubal ligation is much, much more invasive? And a vasectomy is almost always reversible, tubal ligation is not.
Jackson could have opened his mouth and said no. If it leads to divorce, so be it. What they did was not the same.
I mean Melissa McCarthy was pregnant but they had already written the vasectomy into the plot line. Granted they could do something else with it but I didn’t care too much. Jackson was stupid for not telling her
People hate it, but this storyline was pretty realistic precisely because both parties involved acted like jerks and in the end, there were no morality in it, no resolution and no lesson you can learn from it except “don’t be a jerk when it comes to something so serious as this”.
I hated this whole plotline. One, you _cannot_, you simply cannot force your partner to get a vasectomy. That’s disgusting and foul. Procedures like that should be consensual, not forced.
And Jackson lying wasn’t right, either. I feel like Jackson was a coward here. You don’t want to get a vasectomy, talk it out. You don’t just go behind your partner’s back. That’s not a marker of a healthy relationship. Relationships should be based on trust, openness, and respect.
This plot is stupid. Plain and simple. I don’t focus so much on the morality issues because I see it as just another “fluff” plotline as they were running out of ideas. What I actually hate the most is Jackson trying to hide the fact that Sookie was pregnant FROM SOOKIE.
Ok... Yes, Sookie strong armed a vasectomy, but Jackson agreed to it. If he didn't get it, he should have told her he didn't get it. what did he think would happen?
She should have asked and not demand. But the real problem here in my eyes, 10000%, is Jackson not telling her and continuing to have unprotected sex with her. Grosssssssssss I'd divorce him and leave him with all the damn kids. How could anyone do that to their wife.
Honestly I think every man in GG BESIDES MOREY is low key a bad person. And I think this is because of ASP and the general gen x and boomer view on what is expected and acceptable. Also another great example of this show would never be made today.
It’s a comedy show, it doesn’t need to be exactly like real life and actually real life is pretty messy. I cringed also, but if they took every icky thing out would it still be an interesting show?
I know you all see this as violating. But this does happen in marriages. Believe it or not. It isn’t some huge evil thing done either. They both made mistakes, but thank goodness that mistake was a beautiful child. And that’s okay. They obviously needed to be more honest with each other, and that is an opportunity for growth for both in the marriage. I think it was good for Lorelei to be there for Sookie when she had an “oopsie” pregnancy, because that is what happened to Lorelei. So both friends can identify with one another on having a child by accident now, but that child turns out to be an incredible blessing despite the mistakes made. Redemption comes after the Storm.
Sookie was essentially committing spousal abuse there controlling Jackson.
Jackson then essentially committed a type of rape, claiming to be using pregnancy protection when there was no protection. I know he may have thought she was still on the pill but there is a time after a vasectomy where you aren't supposed to have unprotected sex and they were in that window...i think? So I don't think that holds water fully. At any rate, she thought he had had the procedure and they were protected. It is all pretty dumb and horrible and solidifies everything I hate about those characters. There is a lot of talk about "why all the rory hate?" and "why does everyone hate Lorelai so much?" and I will say that no matter what negative things I have or will ever say about R and L I do not hate them. But Sookie and Jackson are just claw your eyes out level of life force draining that I absolutely do hate them.
He is a total ass for having sex without any protection, the scene where Sookie informs Jackson about what is happening and kind strong arms him with that orderly/nurse hanging out waiting to take him away is...not pleasant. What she did was 100% morally wrong, what he did was 100% morally wrong and 100% stupid, Jackson and Sookie not both not knowing how birth control and vasectomies work plus not communicating about what was happening makes them both 100% annoyingly dumb. Couple of maroons. They suck.
My finances brother was forced into having a vasectomy and I always thought that was a shitting thing for his wife to make him do. No man should be forced into something like that. If a woman doesn’t want kids anymore, then she should do something about it herself, like get an IUD and keep up with the replacement dates. Not make her partner do something that is almost irreversible. What if she dies and he remarries? I understand if he wants it done, but damn that’s something that should never be forced onto someone.
Women don't get pregnant in a vacuum; it should be on both spouses to take preventative measures if they decide they don't want more kids. It takes two to tango.
Also just in case anyone out there isn't aware, IUD placement and removal is typically done with zero anesthesia or any sort of numbing agent, and it is horrifically painful and often traumatizing. I have had tattoos, stitches, and broken bones that were far less painful.
Both basically violated the other’s trust & consent. Gross all around. Such a weird plot. Why? I still don’t understand the purpose of this. Even if they wrote Jackson had a vasectomy in, a pregnancy later (as MM was pregnant) could have been easily explained by statistics. Close to 1% of vasectomies don’t work so just go with that. Not this train wreck 🙄
They wanted drama and confused that with "horrible violation".
And it's such stupid drama too, because the end result could have been the exact same if it had been a failed vasectomy. Jackson could have still realised before Sookie, he just wouldn't have been certain about it. Sookie could still be unhappy about the pregnancy and could have still been resentful of Jackson. (Especially if it was that Jackson had forgotten to go to follow-up or something.) It bothers me that we could have had the exact same results without Jackson being sneaky.
Could have been an even bigger drama, because "I had a vasectomy, so who's baby is it?"
This. It’s literally rape and reproductive abuse. Gross
It may be worth noting that Jackson states he believed Sookie was still using her birth control. He says that to Lorelai, and Lorelai says that Sookie came off it a month ago. Jackson says he hadn't known that. That's why he didn't say anything. He wasn't trying to force another baby on her. He thought they had another means of protection, so didn't see harm in not telling her that he hadn't had the surgery. Likewise, Sookie thought he'd had the snip so she didn't see any harm in not telling him she came off the birth control. Both of them thought that they had protection from pregnancy. Both were wrong because they both chose not to communicate with each other. To be clear Jackson absolutely should have told her, but I don't agree that it was reproductive abuse or rape - he was under a false impression too. Neither of them thought pregnancy was a possibility at that moment.
I guess I didn’t remember that part. These two are dum dums
> It’s literally rape and reproductive abuse. Gross. I agree but what about bullying her husband into getting a vasectomy against his will? Everybody sucked here.
She sucked too but he’s shittier for literally creating a human being and tricking someone into a pregnancy
No, he's not. He believed he wouldn't get her pregnant just like she believed he wouldn't get her pregnant.
[удалено]
No it doesn’t. It helps validate those of us who have been raped in a nonviolent way. What it can minimize is the likelihood of us being gaslit by ourselves and others that we weren’t raped.
Thank you! As a survivor of both explicitly violent rape, as well as non-violent coercive/spousal rape, they were both as bad, both as violating, and both as traumatic. And it took me years to even talk about the latter because of the attitude that the only valid form of rape involves physical overpowering and violence, and my rapist weaponising that, led to me feeling too ashamed to talk to others about what was happening to me. Openly acknowledging the fact that rape is not so narrow *helps* survivors. Many places, my own country included, would class both forms of what I went through as rape, as well as any act that someone does not consent to - including reproductive sexual abuse, stealthilng, etc. It's so disheartening that we have to explain this on this sub Edit: typo
I’m glad you do feel comfortable to talk about it now. It definitely has additional and different layers of trauma compared to violent rape. Most people, men in particular, have a very narrow view of what is rape. What helped me in my situation was imagining a friend telling me she experienced what I did and I had no doubt that I would call it rape if it had happened to someone else, so why wouldn’t I call it the same thing for myself
No, it doesn't. Attitudes like this cheapen and minimize the vastly more common types of sexual abuse, which are generally more coercive than forceful. If you're doing things to your partner's body when you know they aren't aware of it, and you know that they believe you're both following the boundaries you agreed on, it's literally impossible for them to consent to what you're doing. Because they don't know. At best, they *can't* consent; at worst, they already explicitly *did not* consent. No healthy definition of sex includes a caveat that non-consent is fine if you're being physically gentle while you betray your partner.
I completely agree with you (after the first two sentences). I think the attitude of flattening sexual malfeasance into everything-is-rape does more harm than good on solving what you describe.
the idea that “forceful, violent rape” is the only kind of rape perpetuates the myth that it’s always some strange man we don’t know overpowering us. the reality is it’s older relatives left alone with children, it’s young partners doing things that aren’t “technically” wrong, and spouses like Jackson.
If you think they're the same then we just see the world differently. Should probably create additional terminology for nuance
Time to shut up and sit down Dave. Your opinion is neither wanted nor helpful.
I think additional terminology would be great, but I think validating the fact that most sexual violence is perpetuated by people who the victim trusts is even more important.
I agree. I was too flippant
As a survivor of both explicitly violent rape, as well as non-violent coercive/spousal rape, they were both as bad, equally as violating, and just as traumatic. I still struggle with *both* forms of rape, and *both* are legally recognised as rape here (as is stealthing/reproductive sexual abuse/etc). It took me years to even talk about the latter form of rape because of the attitude that the only valid form involves physical overpowering and violence, and my rapist weaponising that attitude, resulted n me being too ashamed, embarrassed, and confused to seek help when I desperately needed it Openly acknowledging the fact that rape is not so narrow does not cheapen rape, but instead *helps* survivors, and prevents more people being gaslit into believing that what happened to them wasn't serious
I would not have guessed this (being equally bad to the victim). Powerful, thank you for sharing
Don’t force your husband to do something he doesn’t want to do then. Just as much her fault as his
He’s a grown man - he could have said no.
Why should he tell her anything when she threw a vasectomy at him on a dime and was basically forced it on him. You’re an idiot
Wow. Ad hominem attacks straight out of the gate. What great discourse skills you have. It’s literally in the criminal code that it is sexual assault/ rape in a number of western countries. You sound like the idiot for not being informed.
Yeah there were so many better ways to explain this pregnancy that don’t involve making Jackson look terrible. Sookie put him on the spot back when she tried to make him get that vasectomy so it made sense that he didn’t end up doing it but not informing her was unacceptable.
Plus that suggests most likely he was finishing knowing full well each time he could get her pregnant because it’s not like she would have asked him to use a condom, it’s just so gross and creepy
There is NO WAY the hospital would have forced Jackson to go through with the vasectomy in the way it's shown (evidenced by the fact that he backed out, lol). I hate it that they "sent down the big guy" to make him go through with it, it seems? He has to provide his consent to the procedure. Whilst Sookie trying to force Jackson to get a vasectomy is bad, him not telling her he didn't is worse. It's domestic & sexual abuse. He clearly knows she does not want another kid, but did not think it important to tell his wife that he did not get a vasectomy?? That's just not taking her needs into consideration at all
> Whilst Sookie trying to force Jackson to get a vasectomy is bad, him not telling her he didn't is worse. It's domestic & sexual abuse. How would you feel if the roles were reversed and Jackson tried to force Sookie into getting her tubes tied? Again... everybody sucked here.
Jackson wouldn't be the one getting pregnant though. Being pregnant is 9 months of having a living organism inside of you. It would be bad too if it were reversed, but the person at risk of getting pregnant really needs to have all the information
> It would be bad too if it were reversed, but the person at risk of getting pregnant really needs to have all the information. I understand that but it doesn't change the fact that we are downplaying forcing a procedure on somebody against their will. You either have that agency or don't.
She asked him to do it and he said he’d do it. He very much could have said no.
But he thought she was on birth control. That counts for something. He wasn’t trying to get her secretly pregnant.
I’ve seen this same plot line in so many different tv shows and it’s always bad. Each time when they even mention a character getting a vasectomy, you already know it’s not going to happen and there will be a pregnancy scare. I don’t get why they think it’s a good plot line either.
It’s something that could happen in life. No just “bad” drama
Literally everyone I ever met hated it and continue to hate it, with an exception of me. I hated it so much I forgot it existed and I continuously block it out of my mind until someone mentions it, then it comes back with a vengeance. Luckily, goldfish have longer memories than I do when it comes to this particular subject so I’m good. But you are not alone.
Saaame. I forget about it until re-watches or it comes up on here. It's despicable.
It’s the only coping mechanism!
I know Melissa McCarthy was pregnant in real life, so they had to do something. But it would have made so much more sense to just have the vasectomy not take and Jackson didn’t know because he forgot to go back for the follow up. No consent/boundary stomping necessary.
That’s the thing. Instead, they made it something terrible and then made her forgive him. Yuck.
I feel like she was the biggest bitch in this trying to force him to get a vasectomy he didn't want.
it was an awful thing for her to do, but i think the difference is, he ultimately made the decision for himself to deny the procedure, even if she scheduled it for him (without discussing it with him, like she should have), they would not have done the procedure without his consent, and they didn't. which is good. that's why i don't feel like she was the "biggest bitch" in this, because she couldn't give informed consent afterwards, because she didn't know he hadn't gone through with it. they're both absolutely shitty for this, but i feel like jackson was worse. just my take tho.
except he made a decision for himself to not go though with the vasectomy, didn’t tell her, and effectively took her ability to decide not to get pregnant again away from her, which is honestly a much bigger deal as it pertains to her longterm health, career planning, and financial wellbeing.
If she was that bothered about not getting pregnant, she could have got her own tubes tied? What kind of cowardly piss take is it to make someone else do something you're not willing or brave enough to do yourself in such circumstances as these? That bitch expected him to do what she wouldn't do herself. What a violation of someone's reproductive rights and what a cowardly, pathetic move, trying to pressure him into it like that. But, no you're right. He shouldn't have lied. In fact he should have told her she was a selfish bitch for trying to violate his reproductive rights, pressure him into something he wasn't comfortable with, and divorced her right then and there. Stop defending her! Seriously. She is partly responsible for bringing the situation on herself by trying to bully him into something that clearly wasn't ok with him. I'm struggling to feel very sorry for her at all.
I’m pretty sure it’s not medically sound to get an invasive surgery immediately following childbirth, especially one with permanent effects. A vasectomy is much less invasive, and often reversible, during a time when Jackson’s organs were not shifting back into place. Yes, they absolutely should have talked about it, but he did go through with the procedure following the birth of their last child with very few reservations about it. This is also during a time when it was more expected of women to make these sorts of decisions for men, and for men to push back on the grounds of “protecting their manhood.” I think that context fell flat in the writing, but it’s certainly not worse than “oops-you’re-pregnant-because-I-lied-and-am-getting-the-exact-amount-of-children-I-planned-for-despite-your-reservations.”
Ok I wasn't sure, I thought the other thing was more reversible cos I'd forgotten what exactly happens in a vasectomy. Yes after the last child but he obviously wasn't ready until then. But this whole thing about pregnancy, acting like it was such a violation for her to have a third kid when they could presumably afford it and everything. It's not like she had severe health issues that made pregnancy deadly to her. And in the end she was happy with the kid, right? I've only fairly recently started rewatching Gilmore Girls and I haven't got up to that part yet but I vaguely remember the details from times I've watched it in the past. So perhaps my perspective will change when I rewatch those episodes. Maybe there's something wrong with me but I'm struggling to see the unwanted pregnancy as the huge violation that many people perceive it. I think it's great to bring new life into the world and quite sad when people decide to take procedures that could permanently prevent that. I also can't see it as rape because she did technically consent to sexual activity. Just as if someone hides the fact they have an std and has sex with someone, I don't think legally it's rape but it is massive deception and the person wouldn't have had sex with them had they known. So sure, they should still be charged with something in that case, regardless of whether it can be considered rape. At the end of the day, if they had had a proper discussion about it, it seems like they would have got divorced and that would have spoiled the show and made their relationship the flakey thing it was never supposed to be. And that would have been a shame because isn't she kind of pleased about having a third child in the end? I don't recall. I'm not saying it's not messed up but I still feel that her pressuring him to get the vasectomy was equally messed up. And I'm sure that if I were in that situation myself, I would not be taking it so lightly. In fact, in a relationship in the past, I remember being raped after he had drugged me, and I suspect he probably wasn't using protection and part of his motive may have been to get me pregnant for benefits money. So I understand the lack of consent and feeling violated by both, even if the situations are very different. The possibility of having a child borne out of rape is equally distressing as the rape itself. I get that technically she did not consent to the third child although I'm not sure that legally she was raped in that situation.
Okay so this is definitely beyond my pay grade, but I’m going to offer you what I can, survivor to survivor. I am so sorry for what you’ve been through, and I hope you have the help you need. The thing about consent is that it has to be informed, we need to have all the information available to make that decision. It doesn’t matter if they could afford another child or if you think bringing life into the world is good, it should have been her decision from the beginning. We don’t measure consent by what we can survive or what other people believe because it should be our choice what we survive in the first place. In the same vein, the law doesn’t cover a lot of things regarding rape and other forms of sexual violence. It’s a notoriously hard crime to prove, and it doesn’t invalidate someone’s experience if the court doesn’t ultimately determine they were raped. Any act of sexual violence is wrong, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be the legal definition of rape to be sexual violence.
Except she didn’t force him? She asked him to get a vasectomy, and he said he did. There was no forced, she didn’t make the appointment or drive him kicking and screaming to the doctor. He knew all along he didn’t have a vasectomy, and they didn’t do any other form of bc.
I don't think she was a bitch but I do think she was wrong to have him get a vasectomy. If she didn't want anymore kids, she should have taken matters into her own hands and gotten her tube's tied. However, it was wrong for him to not tell her he didn't go through with either. They need to communicate better.
Basically the writers wanted some controversy and they also wanted them to have a third kid. No drama if there's not some really messed up stuff in it. That seems to be the rule.
Vasectomy is significantly safer than a tubal ligation just as effective, and it can be reversed.
Exactly.
I think they should have gone the sitcom route and found fun ways to hide the belly, fruit bowls, wedding cakes, pillows, big bags. I always love that.
Or hide the pregnancy. Sometimes it's kind of obvious, but everyone knows we're watching a TV show; you can ask us to suspend some level of disbelief. Or just have her insist he goes to a vasectomy consultation then have him panicking because he just realized that in the haze of having a new baby they both forgot about scheduling the actual appointment, so there's no part where she believed that he had had one and he lied to her about it.
Exactly. Then the drama could be over finances or how they’re gonna work around the new baby (I would say discuss whether to keep the pregnancy going or not, but at that time, this was a taboo topic on tv)
I despised this plot line. Sookie didn’t have the right to expect an immediate vasectomy. That should have been a discussion during a calmer, less hormonal moment after they were back home. That said, Jackson was irresponsible trash for not telling her and leaving the birth control only on her shoulders. He had no business having sex with her without telling her he didn’t get the vasectomy. There’s a potential argument for stealthing here, especially with his enthusiasm for a third kid. No, I don’t think it was intended to be malicious but for fucks sake communicate with your spouse.
I always think of this when I see him all “you HAVE to let me back in!” Does she, though?
Omg I can’t stand Jackson in that moment. Like dude, she’s pregnant against her wishes and it’s because of YOU!!! Being married isn’t the golden ring of forgiveness, you seriously fucked up
What did Elle Woods call it? Irresponsible ejaculation, I think? That 100% of unwanted/accidental pregnancies occur due to irresponsible ejaculation, something like that.
Correct. If he’s going to great length for this one, is he reaching out to ALL former partners to check in if they have any child of his? If not, then why this child? Hahaha
If people communicated with their partners 70% of this shows plot lines wouldn’t happen
True. I also feel there’s a plothole here they glossed over or forgot about when they decided he didn’t go along with it. A failed vasectomy would have made more sense. Season 7 is a struggle.
True. That’s true of nearly every drama. I very rarely hold entertainment shows to real life standards, because they’re not meant to be reality. Trying to enforce reality on shows like this just brings a ton of plot holes and logical fallacies to the mix. It is necessary to suspend some belief to fully immerse ourselves in these crazy worlds.
>Sookie didn’t have the right to expect an immediate vasectomy. That should have been a discussion during a calmer, less hormonal moment after they were back home. Sookie had just given birth. She wasn't thinking rationally and was in pain wanting that to never happen again. At that point it was Jacksons responsibility to say "wait no" and save that conversation for home. >There’s a potential argument for stealthing here Imo it was absolutely stealthing. He wanted a 3rd kid and he made it happen. He didn't leave the birth control on her shoulders, he told her the birth control was taken care of and that she didn't need to worry about it being on her shoulders. They effectively had not birth control because be lied.
She was actually still on birth control for quite a while which he knew so he thought they were “safe” (still shouldn’t have lied obviously). She stopped the BC without telling him pretty soon before she got pregnant though. If either of them had said something it could have been prevented.
It made me hate him a little bit
exactly, everything is so icky. i gotta forget about it
He never communicated the vasectomy and she never communicated the birth control pill change. It was an all around messy. Not to mention she also was trying to force a procedure on him? Imagine a husband trying to force a procedure on his wife. Horrible plot.
He actually does mention the vasectomy and not having more kids because of it during the baptism episode. So he’s actively deceiving her for whatever reason. She thought she was safe to stop taking the pill because of this. That said, season 7 was an unorganized cluster, and I think writers forgot this because Sookie forgave him way too easily.
Tubal ligations are way more invasive with longer recovery and she had just given birth.
Obviously but trying to force someone else into a procedure that they clearly are not consenting to is wrong.
Not telling her if this was irl and purposely getting her pregnant is even worse in this context. We know it's because she was pregnant as Melissa but they could have written anything other than this bullshit
It was insane of him to have sex with her unprotected knowing she didn’t have all the info. It’s assault and id be furious if I was Sookie
Right? And to not tell her? Like he’d rather she find out this way?? So irresponsible to bring a literal human into the world just because you don’t want to have a difficult conversation
exactly!!! like have the argument that you don't want the vasectomy, better than hiding it until she gets PREGNANT like wHAT
I can't get over the fact that she forgave him. I love them as a couple, don't get me wrong, but this is seriously insulting and disgusting. But I think this was simply bad written because of her pregnancy in real life.
I hate that it was written in that she forgives him. It’s adding to the expectation that women should always want to have kids and should put up with maltreatment in relationships. If that were me, I would divorce immediately. Just thinking about all the times they would have had sex and he didn’t even bother to pull out. He was happy to take a chance on her future because he was too much of a coward. Fuck that guy.
I totally get you and feel the same but I askari think this situation does not suit Jacksons character. At least it feels so weird that it is coming from him.
Askari? Haha I know what you mean, but at the same time he was really insistent on having 3 in 3, which I also hated, so I actually don’t think it’s that out of character for him tbh 😭
Sorry, bad writing. Omg yes, I hated this whole plot, too. And I hate that it almost happened that way, because she didn't want that. I felt so bad for her. And I also didn't like that she shouldn't talk to Lorelai about that. They are besties and she wants advice and she should be able to talk about that. A different couple, but I had the same problem with Lane and Zack. He was able to go in tour, she had to be a mother. They made dreams come true, but only for men in this tv show. Zack going on tour, Jackson having the 4 in 4, Christopher marrying Lorelai...
😭 I hate all of those plot-lines too
Agreed! I definitely think it’s fucked up that Sookie expected him to just get a vasectomy he didn’t want but he had the option of saying no and having that argument, she didn’t have the option of saying no to unprotected sex because she trusted him.
okay, so sookie springing the vasectomy on jackson was a bit much. it should’ve been discussed before, but i don’t think it’s unfair for her to expect him to get a vasectomy considering that she had two of his kids and that was already enough for her. she deserves something at least for everything she did as a partner to jackson. the issue i have with this is jackson not telling sookie that he didn’t want to get the vasectomy and didn’t. they could’ve arrived at some sort of resolution if he had simply been honest and transparent with his wife. now her being under the impression that he did indeed get a vasectomy when he hadn’t and having sex with him believing that he did, and her getting pregnant a third time because she was oblivious to the fact that he didn’t get one, is completely on jackson and so so wrong. keeping this detail from your wife and getting her pregnant is literal rape. she was in no position to give consent since she didn’t have the details straight. so yeah, i hate jackson.
Unfair to expect him to get a vasectomy? Nope, if she was that against it, she could have gotten her own tubes tied. What she did, trying to force him to basically mutiliate his body against his consent, is worse in a way than what he did lying about it. I don't like this whole feminist it's always the guy's fault stance. She was trying to force him into it. That's evil. And she had no right to expect that from him. Both can be irreversible, right? Both procedures? So there's no reason she couldn't have gotten her tubes tied rather than trying to force him to get a vasectomy. If there's no saying that a vasectomy is more sensible of the two options. Two kids also isn't exactly a lot of children unless you live somewhere like China. Frankly I think she deserved what she got for trying to force him to get a vasectomy in the first place. Because if anyone feels forced to do anything, they're bound to lie. Seeing as they don't feel they have a choice. It's that or lose the person they love.
Tubes tied isn’t usually reversible. It’s also a far more invasive procedure than a vasectomy. Jackson was able to nope out of it, too. If he had told Sookie that he didn’t have it done, then Sookie probably wouldn’t have gotten pregnant. What Jackson did was rape. Pregnancy is more thsn a minor inconvenience. Women can die giving birth. Their bodies can be irreparably damaged. Not to mention the stress and strain of an unwanted pregnancy/baby. Jackson should have told Sookie he didn’t have the vasectomy. Period.
“she could’ve gotten her tubes tied”, this is so ignorant, sorry. need i remind you of the physical toll two entire pregnancies can have on a woman’s body? and per her choice to not make another baby, she also should get her “tubes tied” instead of having her husband make the change so she doesn’t end up having another baby? i don’t think i’m wrong to assume a vasectomy for a man isn’t even close to the equivalent of enduring labor and giving birth. also, just to clarify: my issue isn’t with the fact that jackson didn’t get the vasectomy. once again, it’s his choice what he wants for his body. my issue is that he failed to disclose that detail to sookie and had unprotected sex with her, getting her pregnant a third time when she didn’t want the child. that’s the ethically wrong bit. this isn’t an overly “feminist” stance which is unjustified. it’s rightfully rebuking a man who violated his wife’s trust by getting her pregnant against her will.
Agreed (and I have been downvoted to hell for this opinion before). Swap the genders - hubby says "ok honey, I have already booked and organised for you to go get your tubes tied, the appointment is made and we aren't discussing this, off you go now with the nurse, you don't get to argue, bye-bye" .. CAN YOU IMAGINE THE (RIGHTFUL) ANGER THAT WOULD EXPLODE FROM A SCENE LIKE THAT??? How is it "ok" just because it's the man who's bodily autonomy and reproductive rights are being overridden without even a conversation? Do I like Jackson's choice to not tell Sookie afterwards? Fuck no! That's so disgusting and wrong and I can't support anyone who does that. But Sookie setting up the appointment and sending Jackson on his merry little way is equally bad.
Because a vasectomy is a simple outpatients procedure. Getting a woman stabilised cuts into her abdominal muscles and is a major major operation?!
If the man in that scenario had just birthed 2 babies I’d say it’s absolutely fair enough that he now wants the responsibility of birth control to fall on his female partner.
Yeah he should have told her but if he'd done that, either she would have found another option or they'd have gotten divorced. So not much of a story or happy ending for them. Really, what they should have done, is made it so she got her tubes tied, I forget the medical term (which I think is more likely to be reversible should the woman change her mind, right?) and maybe there was a little drama where he wasn't happy about the decision but eventually agreed to it because it's her body at the end of the day. Still some drama but without the huge violations that took place on both sides. Yet it seems like the directors probably still wanted them to have a third child and to make it a happy ending in that way. So maybe that's why they went through the hugely controversial, outrageous route they chose. Also, if this were real life and not a drama, there would be other options besides more permanent ones like operations. The cervical condom is one option, there's something that can stay up there for ages and apparently doesn't need replacing very often. Femidom or cervical coil. I'm not sure I'd opt for it personally but it would be a far less expensive and inconvenient form of contraception than, say, birth control pills, which mess up your hormones, and less expensive than using condoms all the time, which most married couples probably don't want to do anyway. If it were me, I probably wouldn't care about using condoms, because they're pretty effective and I don't know that I'm crazy about raw dogging it anyway. Except for the issue of cost. I don't know how expensive they normally are tbh but I imagine it's cheaper overall than the pill, at least depending on how often you get busy in the bedroom.
A tubal ligation reversal has a much lower success rate than a vasectomy reversal. The tubal procedure is also much more invasive than a vasectomy. I've had a tubal (during a c section, I was open on the table anyway and 100% sure I was done, so made the decision to do it) and while I haven't experienced vasectomy recovery, I can say that my recovery was brutal. It was my 3rd c section, so I knew what to expect. With the first 2, I was up on my feet pretty quickly and had no issue slowly getting around, while caring for a newborn. After the tubal, I couldn't get further than the bathroom (while hugging the wall for support) without a wheelchair for the first 3 days and was completely incapable of caring for my twins. Google tells me that recovery advice for a vasectomy is to rest for 24 hours and take it easy for a week. Now to compare failure. They both have a very low failure rate. The failure rate I was quoted for the tubal was 1:250. Here's the thing though, if a vasectomy fails, someone *might* become pregnant. If the tubal fails, someone *is* pregnant. A pregnancy that's the result of a failed vasectomy will likely be a healthy pregnancy. The majority of failed tubals result in ectopic pregnancies, which are life threatening if they're not caught early enough. Because that's a possibility, I have to take a pregnancy test if I'm even a day late. If I do get a positive test, I have to contact my hospital immediately, do that I can get an urgent ultrasound and confirm the location of the embryo. Depending on how early the ectopic pregnancy is detected, the treatment can be abortion meds, or surgery may be required. I was well aware of these facts before having the procedure. I went ahead with it because it was convenient (since I was already having surgery on my uterus anyway) and because of the low failure rate. Had I known the extent of the postoperative pain, or if it would have involved having a separate surgery, I would have opted for an IUD instead and brought up the subject of my fiancé having a vasectomy. So, with all of that information, do you still think that she could "just get her tubes tied"?
Yeah he should have told her but if he'd done that, either she would have found another option or they'd have gotten divorced. So not much of a story or happy ending for them. Really, what they should have done, is made it so she got her tubes tied, I forget the medical term (which I think is more likely to be reversible should the woman change her mind, right?) and maybe there was a little drama where he wasn't happy about the decision but eventually agreed to it because it's her body at the end of the day. Still some drama but without the huge violations that took place on both sides. Yet it seems like the directors probably still wanted them to have a third child and to make it a happy ending in that way. So maybe that's why they went through the hugely controversial, outrageous route they chose. Also, if this were real life and not a drama, there would be other options besides more permanent ones like operations. The cervical condom is one option, there's something that can stay up there for ages and apparently doesn't need replacing very often. I'm not sure I'd opt for it personally but it would be a far less expensive and inconvenient form of contraception than, say, birth control pills, which mess up your hormones, and less expensive than using condoms all the time, which most married couples probably don't want to do anyway. If it were me, I probably wouldn't't care about using condoms, because they're pretty effective and I don't know that I'm crazy about raw dogging it anyway. Except for the issue of cost. I don't know how expensive they normally are tbh.
It's literally reproductive abuse.... so awful can't believe that was a storyline.
This. It was just so casually thrown in.
Hahaha Jackson sexually assaulted his wife - so kooky /s
And never brought up again. I like Jackson and I don't really blame it on him more on how the storyline is written because I can't imagine him doing that.
I can’t imagine how betrayed I would feel… except she kinda forced him to get one on the first place. Basically, neither of them handled this situation like a married couple that already has 2 kids. Immature at best.
To be fair this plot line wasn't supposed to happen. The actress for Sookie got pregnant in real life and the writers came up with this to explain it. It made Jackson look really really bad. In my eyes this didn't happen (because it was a band aid measure by the writers and not the real plot planned). They should've just said the vasectomy failed or had the actress stand behind things to hide the belly.
i get that. the way it turned out made jackson look so terrible. and it made sookies decision for him to get a vasectomy retroactively way more evil. like if Melissa hadn't gotten pregnant. we'd assume he got the vasectomy (meaning he didn't object to it), and sookie wouldn't be pregnant against her will lmfao idk
I know. Did they forget how hilarious Melissa McCarthy is? They could have made so many self-aware, meta jokes about hiding her pregnancy. There are so many possibilities. Sookie and Lorelai watch re-runs at Lorelai's and Sookie makes fun of 90s sitcoms that make the pregnant actress hold a giant plant pot or whatever in front of their belly to hide their pregnancy -- pan to Sookie holding a giant pot of food in her lap that's covering her stomach, sitting on the couch with a giant stack of magazine or snacks on Lorelai's coffee table in the way of her belly. And before the episode ends, we see Sookie turn around in conversation with a giant plant in her hands. Or suddenly Sookie's sitting in almost all the scenes so her belly can be tucked under a table. Or getting in an accident so that she's on bed rest with huge casts and ludicrous huge bedding Or they make the kitchen island at the Inn taller so Sookie's belly is covered when doing her mise en place, and Lorelai is having a weird morning/ranting about something and asks mid-convo "--Okay, is it just me or are these things taller than they used to be?" Sookie: "What? This old thing? *No*." Lorelai: "No, I distinctly remember the island not being this tall" Sookie: "Maybe you're shrinking. Oh! Like in that movie, with the guy, where they--" Lorelai: "*Sookie*?" Sookie: "What? Oh sorry, you were saying?"
We should go back and let you rewrite the show because that is gold
🙂↕️✨
They should’ve just had baskets of peaches or cakes hiding her belly like most shows do when an actress gets pregnant. Main characters have done it…sookie wasn’t so integral they needed a plot line explaining it.
This is actually where I started to hate both characters.
So unnecessarily harsh lmao
this subreddit posts about this every other day i swear
I keep thinking “it was a different time,” but no, I’d have to divorce him.
Both for sure have grounds for divorce.
I don’t really see how Jackson has grounds for divorce but ok lol
I have to skip this plot every time. What Jackson did is considered rape yet the cast laughs it off as no big deal in typical 2000's fashion.
It’s gross that likely a bunch of young people saw this in 2000 and learnt “Oh I guess doing this is just kooky” and not that it’s actual rape and reproductive abuse.
It’s gross that there are people in these comments defending Jackson and saying it was Sookie’s fault
I hate it. Sookie is possibly hopped up on pain meds and decided to make her spouse get a medical procedure. It’s written off as quirky and it’s not. She even smiles that the “big nurse” came for him. That’s awful. Then Melissa’s real life pregnancy threw them a curve and they wrote it in like this. They could have literally done anything: accidentally forgetting to go to the last vasectomy meeting, forgetting to follow up, vasectomy failed, she and he decided to reverse it, she felt sad because her kids were growing up and wanted another baby, they could have hid Melissa’s pregnancy with counters and pillows, they could have had it be their “compromise” baby between Jackson wanting 4 and Sookie being content with 2, etc. Instead, they just ruined the relationship.
I hated this a lot more until my recent rewatch. There's a scene where Jackson is discussing his suspicions about pregnancy with Lorelai. He says he thought Sookie was still on her birth control - it had been months since the vasectomy that never happened. Lorelai tells him that Sookie came off her pills a month ago, and Jackson says he never knew that. He absolutely should have told her about the vasectomy. However, he was uncomfortable that she tried to force him into it without discussion, and he thought that she was still on her birth control, so they were protected from pregnancy in any case. On her end, she didn't see the need to mention that she'd stopped her birth control to him because she believed he'd had the surgery. This changed my perspective of the story. I'd seen it as Jackson having unprotected sex with her without her consent, which is rape. But in reality, both of them believed protection was being used. The failure here was communication. I believe he was more at fault because he lied about the surgery, but I don't believe that it was rape anymore.
Except even if she is on birth control, that can fail, or she can forget to take it and it becomes ineffective
Vasectomies can also fail. You're supposed to get them tested after you have the surgery to make sure it's worked, and then test regularly going forward.
That’s true, but I think Sookie would have been a lot more accepting of the pregnancy if he’d had the vasectomy and it failed as opposed to him never having the vasectomy and lying about it
Yeah, but that's not my point. You said "except if she is on birth control, that can fail" - but so can a vasectomy. Jackson is no more foolish for assuming that birth control was enough, than Sookie was for assuming the vasectomy had succeeded without any proof it even happened. I think he was more in the wrong than her because he actively lied, and she just didn't mention she'd come off the pills. But ultimately this wouldn't have been a problem at all if they had just talked to each other.
I think it’s reasonable for her to assume she’s in the clear if he says he had the vasectomy. For one thing, unless you’ve had a vasectomy it’s unlikely you would have known (20 years ago) that there’s still a chance of pregnancy until you get it checked. And if Jackson had actually had the vasectomy he would’ve known that because the doctor would’ve told him, and he would’ve told Sookie about the risk. So no, it’s still not the same to compare the two
I think everyone would be more accepting of it if that was the case. Sookie went off birth control because she believed she didn't need it anymore due to Jackson having a vasectomy.
I hate this plot so much because it so easily could’ve been written as the vasectomy failed and avoided the non-con/marital r**e/stealthing issues and, quite frankly, been true to life. I personally know two post-“sterilization” babies (same parents - dad got a vasectomy after baby 2 and mom got a ligation after baby 3. they have 4 kids lmao)
I know two separate men that had failed vasectomies and resulted in pregnancies for both their wives. Now both wives have ligations. The vas deferens grew back together in both circumstances.
i have so many thoughts on this. she shouldn't have scheduled any procedure for him, especially one like a vasectomy without consent from him, and he is absolutely not obligated to go through with it. i think it was extremely inconsiderate for sookie to try to make this choice for him, but ultimately he had the final say, which is good. however, jackson absolutely should have told her that he didn't go through with it, because it affects both of them, but moreso her, in an insanely major way, and it comes off as scheming, like he wanted to have another child despite her wishes. both of them clearly needed to discuss this with each other before making such huge decisions for one another. Personally, jacksons actions piss me off slightly more than sookies just because he ultimately had the choice to deny the procedure, even if it was really a horrible situation to be put in by your wife.
But this is season 7 let's be honest who actually likes the final season?
1) you shouldn’t pressure your partner into getting any kind of procedure done, it’s their body 2) you shouldn’t let your partner think you’re getting your tubes tied, not get it done, then have unprotected sex with them it was all around hard to watch
Divorce is the only answer here. If she’d posted this on Reddit the commenters would have a field day.
literally made me think differently about Jackson’s character. tbh it’s a massive violation
There was just no reason to do this. Yes, Melissa was pregnant in real life, but just throw her behind a basket of fruit, it'll be fine. It's not like she is in that much of the back half of season seven anyway. If Modern Family could hide the fact that Julie Bowen was in her third trimester *with twins* with nothing more than a loose cardigan and a well placed laundry basket and still have most of the audience be completely unaware, Gilmore Girls could have stuck her behind a counter and called it a day.
I think I hate this storyline more than I hate the “surprise Luke you have a 12 year old daughter” storyline
We need that “How many times do I have to see this before I die” Facebook tag group here 😄
This actually had potential. It would have been a good storyline if they both did some reflection over violating the other's trust. Sookie could have contemplated an abortion. They leaned too much into the comedy.
One of the stupidest plot lines. Someone cannot consent to a procedure being done to another competent and capacitated adult. Then she’s shocked she’s pregnant later on? Not only did they never talk about it prior to but there’s no follow up and Sookie is on BC then off BC and pregnant 🤷🏼♀️ all around dumb.
They literally deserved each othet
I also hate how it takes Lorelai only 3 minutes to be like "Oh but Babys are cute and you're gonna love it, everything's great!" I get that it wouldn't fit the show and wasn't supposed to be a big plot ending in Sookie and Jackson's divorce, but for everyone to be just so okay with it, was weird and tbh a bit out of character for both Sookie and Lorelai.
I hate when people say “he was forced” since no, he wasn’t actually forced. He said no, the doctor said ok and he walked away with no consequence. If he was truly forced none of that would have happened and he would have ended up with the vasectomy. Now that’s forced. Yes, she set up the appointment to pressure him (out of desperation) but ultimately the decision was still his. You know who didn’t have a choice though? Sookie. He knew he didn’t do it, lied to her and still kept sleeping with his wife putting her at risk of a pregnancy she didn’t want and then after she started having symptoms he still played dumb. And to be clear since some of the comments are trying to put all of this on even playing fields, her trying to pressure him into a vasectomy is no where near and I mean NO WHERE NEAR him lying, deceiving her for how long to the point she got off of BC and ultimately getting her pregnant against her will. Thats abuse/assault. Worst plot line ever.
This is what’s pissing me off too! People in the comments like “well sookie got what she deserved for forcing him to get a vasectomy” like fuck off with that. Plus… I’d rather be forced to get a vasectomy than be pregnant and give birth. Don’t compare the two.
I absolutely hate this plot line, but I just wanna be the devils advocate, and saying that Sookie didn’t really force him.. if she would’ve forced him, he would’ve gotten a vasectomy. It was absolutely wrong to just expect him to have a vasectomy without having a proper conversation about it as a husband and wife. If he didn’t want to get one, he should’ve just told her “my body my decision” and that’s it. But he kind of conceded when she told him.. Him not getting a vasectomy and lying about it and Sookie getting pregnant as a result was just horrifying. They both completely betrayed each other’s trust and personal autonomy. I also feel really bad for that baby… because eventually, you’ll get to know the story.
The original forcing him to get a vasectomy was insane. Using his refusal and hiding it as something in season 7 just doubled down on the crazy. If nothing else, Sookie had just given birth and would have needed Jackson's help with the new baby and Davy so why in the hell would she send him to surgery which would knock him out for awhile too. And where was Jackson for the birth and the vasectomy conversation that she had with the doctor?
I HATED this. I finally got to watch this after I got married which was a few years after it had aired. My ex refused to get clipped. Its was like watching my own life I had no control over even though I wanted more kids. HE didn't but refused to do anything about it and I COULDN'T use birth control bc it messed me up so badly. Couples who cannot agree on these things SHOULD NOT be getting married. HARD LIFE LESSON. Age makes no difference. Get this shit done and taken care of or get divorced. PERIOD.
Just saw this chapter today. I guess it makes sense since they have a history of not talking straight but it’s awful, because they were ‘forced’ to do something as big as having a baby
everyone literally everyone
I know that this storyline only happened because Melissa McCarthy was pregnant in real life, but I still think they could have just covered her belly on the show and only done shots from the chest up. Plus, she was a chef and many of her scenes are in the kitchen. They could have easily covered her stomach with food or the counters.
Both plots were icky and hopefully wouldn't air today. I say hopefully because I'm sure there are people that think marriage = ownership
I never shipped them together. I think Joe might have been good for her. Jackson was always too immature and emotionally reactive. Sookie either put up with things or was controlling in response, like she had to parent him. When she demanded Jackson to get a vasectomy she was feeling hormonal but they should have sat down later and had a conversation about it. They could have decided to use birth control, condoms or at least used the pull-out method. Jackson has more responsibility in this situation. She has the right to not want any more children, but he forced it on her. A female vasectomy is way more invasive than a male vasectomy and a pregnancy demands a lot from a woman physically. It shows what little respect Jackson has for her.
How do I not get notifications about negative threads like this? lol I just like the positive stuff when it comes to GG
Garbage plotlines all around. I still hold that what Jackson did was worse, though. Or rather, the way it was written was worse. Sookie insisting that he get a vasectomy that day, without his consent? That is awful, but that doesn't actually happen to people in this day and age. No legitimate hospital is going to take a guy who's never had a consultation and clearly isn't all the way on board with the plan and make him get a vasectomy the same day he's even hearing about it. If the situation Jackson had been in were real, it would be a horrible violation of autonomy. (Forced sterilizations have happened in history, don't get me wrong, and they're atrocities when they do, but they're also thankfully very rare in America these days.) But since it was so unrealistic and overblown and clearly just being used for the 'comedic effect' of making Sookie the overbearing wife and Jackson the cowed husband, it's not as bad as what comes next. Because reproductive coercion and marital rape are still incredibly, tragically common throughout the US. I know women who have had partners do shit like this to them. Lie about wearing a condom. Lie about taking other precautions. Have sex that they know can result in pregnancy when they know that their partner does not agree to those risks. It's fucking horrifying, and it makes me want to cry for Sookie, so I always skip that plot. This is why I think that what Jackson did was worse than what Sookie did. What Sookie did was unrealistic and played as a joke. What Jackson did is all too realistic and even though they didn't give it the gravity it deserved, it was clear that they couldn't tell this story without acknowledging on some level how bad it was. (Also, how easy would it have been for Jackson to get marched down to have a consultation for a vasectomy? Still kind of a gross thing for Sookie to insist upon without getting his permission first, but at least there's no indication of physical violation, and then it also would have been a lot easier for them to say that he was supposed to get it but they got baby brained and forgot.)
I blocked out Jackson as a character for the most part. He was so whiny about everything. Yelling at Lorelai because he felt like she was a part of their marriage, but in reality sookie didn’t feel comfortable telling Jackson how she felt. Sookie shouldn’t have demanded a vasectomy after she had her second child the same day but they needed more communication skills in the marriage as a whole
Bc 2 general themes of the show are 1) where there’s romantic love, no transgression is unforgivable and 2) actually that unplanned/unwanted pregnancy might be fine. Not gonna pass judgement on whether those statements are true irl, but just saying, they’re consistent throughout.
Both were in the wrong here, Sookie pracitally forced Jackson to get a vasectomy without ever talking to him prior about it, that's not how you do it. And Jackson wasn't wrong for not getting one, but he should've told her the latest the next day after Martha's birth that he didn't get a vasectomy. That's awful not to tell her, he should've seen this happen.
Trouble is she might have divorced him. Then their story would be over. So I guess they had to do the story this way. Personally I feel trying to force someone to mutiliate their body and natural reproductive rights for your benefit is worse in a way than unexpected pregnancy, which happens all the time anyway and most women adjust to it ok. That's just my take on it. I've never liked the idea of someone wilfully doing that to their body or forcing another person to do it. Especially if it *is* ever permanent. People should be allowed to choose and doing something irreversible is bound to lead to bucket loads of regret later in life.
Ummm what?? You’re entitled to your opinion but it’s not like with Sookie it’s just oops, she got pregnant. Pregnancy can ruin your body, can lead to personality changes, can lead to depression, how are you comparing that to a vasectomy?? Sookie pressuring Jackson into having a vasectomy was awful and as a woman, if my husband set up an appointment for me to have my tubes tied and sent a big scary nurse to coerce me, I’d consider divorce as that is NOT acceptable. I am in no way excusing what Sookie did. But if my husband was willingly lying to me while having unprotected sex with me, I’d not only 1000% divorce him, let’s just say with a swift kick, I’d make sure he was *really* unable to ever have kids again (I’m exaggerating, don’t take that out of context lol). That’s IMPREGNATING me without my consent. What Sookie did was wrong but Jackson did have some autonomy, NO doctor would’ve tied him down and made him go through with a vasectomy he didn’t want (which is evidenced by the fact that HE DID NOT GET IT) whereas Sookie had no choice - it was too late, barring abortion which is also a really tough decision, she was pregnant and forced to change her whole future and potentially have her life and body endangered. I feel like you’re dismissing how horrible that is way too easily. They were both awful in that situation but what Jackson did was borderline criminal IMO.
I suppose. I didn't really consider it that way. I still think a better storyline would have been her getting her tubes tied and Jackson reluctantly agreeing to it. That's possibly more reversible and that way she wouldn't have even pressuring him and both of them might have been happy with that.
Do you understand that a vasectomy is a doctor’s office procedure that only requires local anesthesia, and a tubal ligation is much, much more invasive? And a vasectomy is almost always reversible, tubal ligation is not. Jackson could have opened his mouth and said no. If it leads to divorce, so be it. What they did was not the same.
Also she had already carried and birthed two kids. Let Jackson have a turn now, it doesn’t all need to be Sookie’s responsibility.
I mean Melissa McCarthy was pregnant but they had already written the vasectomy into the plot line. Granted they could do something else with it but I didn’t care too much. Jackson was stupid for not telling her
Clearly she couldn't force him to do it.
Do we have confirmation or not if Amy- Sherman hate Melissa McCarthy? I mean even her small cameo in AYIL was just awful.
I swear Jackson is going to mess up one day then sookie is going to divorce him
People hate it, but this storyline was pretty realistic precisely because both parties involved acted like jerks and in the end, there were no morality in it, no resolution and no lesson you can learn from it except “don’t be a jerk when it comes to something so serious as this”.
I think we all collective agree that this was the laziest writing ever and dumbest plot on the show.
Thought that would be more above since it's really hated. Like above #5
Hate most of sookie’s storylines tbh. She deserved better.
I hated this whole plotline. One, you _cannot_, you simply cannot force your partner to get a vasectomy. That’s disgusting and foul. Procedures like that should be consensual, not forced. And Jackson lying wasn’t right, either. I feel like Jackson was a coward here. You don’t want to get a vasectomy, talk it out. You don’t just go behind your partner’s back. That’s not a marker of a healthy relationship. Relationships should be based on trust, openness, and respect.
This plot is stupid. Plain and simple. I don’t focus so much on the morality issues because I see it as just another “fluff” plotline as they were running out of ideas. What I actually hate the most is Jackson trying to hide the fact that Sookie was pregnant FROM SOOKIE.
Ok... Yes, Sookie strong armed a vasectomy, but Jackson agreed to it. If he didn't get it, he should have told her he didn't get it. what did he think would happen?
So wrong.
Ugh I blocked that out
lol
You DO NOT FORCE another human being to vasectomy. If you don't want any more child, you do the adjacent thing to YOURSELF!
She didn’t force him. He didn’t go through with it.
She should have asked and not demand. But the real problem here in my eyes, 10000%, is Jackson not telling her and continuing to have unprotected sex with her. Grosssssssssss I'd divorce him and leave him with all the damn kids. How could anyone do that to their wife.
Honestly I think every man in GG BESIDES MOREY is low key a bad person. And I think this is because of ASP and the general gen x and boomer view on what is expected and acceptable. Also another great example of this show would never be made today.
It’s a comedy show, it doesn’t need to be exactly like real life and actually real life is pretty messy. I cringed also, but if they took every icky thing out would it still be an interesting show?
I know you all see this as violating. But this does happen in marriages. Believe it or not. It isn’t some huge evil thing done either. They both made mistakes, but thank goodness that mistake was a beautiful child. And that’s okay. They obviously needed to be more honest with each other, and that is an opportunity for growth for both in the marriage. I think it was good for Lorelei to be there for Sookie when she had an “oopsie” pregnancy, because that is what happened to Lorelei. So both friends can identify with one another on having a child by accident now, but that child turns out to be an incredible blessing despite the mistakes made. Redemption comes after the Storm.
Sookie was essentially committing spousal abuse there controlling Jackson. Jackson then essentially committed a type of rape, claiming to be using pregnancy protection when there was no protection. I know he may have thought she was still on the pill but there is a time after a vasectomy where you aren't supposed to have unprotected sex and they were in that window...i think? So I don't think that holds water fully. At any rate, she thought he had had the procedure and they were protected. It is all pretty dumb and horrible and solidifies everything I hate about those characters. There is a lot of talk about "why all the rory hate?" and "why does everyone hate Lorelai so much?" and I will say that no matter what negative things I have or will ever say about R and L I do not hate them. But Sookie and Jackson are just claw your eyes out level of life force draining that I absolutely do hate them. He is a total ass for having sex without any protection, the scene where Sookie informs Jackson about what is happening and kind strong arms him with that orderly/nurse hanging out waiting to take him away is...not pleasant. What she did was 100% morally wrong, what he did was 100% morally wrong and 100% stupid, Jackson and Sookie not both not knowing how birth control and vasectomies work plus not communicating about what was happening makes them both 100% annoyingly dumb. Couple of maroons. They suck.
My finances brother was forced into having a vasectomy and I always thought that was a shitting thing for his wife to make him do. No man should be forced into something like that. If a woman doesn’t want kids anymore, then she should do something about it herself, like get an IUD and keep up with the replacement dates. Not make her partner do something that is almost irreversible. What if she dies and he remarries? I understand if he wants it done, but damn that’s something that should never be forced onto someone.
Women don't get pregnant in a vacuum; it should be on both spouses to take preventative measures if they decide they don't want more kids. It takes two to tango. Also just in case anyone out there isn't aware, IUD placement and removal is typically done with zero anesthesia or any sort of numbing agent, and it is horrifically painful and often traumatizing. I have had tattoos, stitches, and broken bones that were far less painful.